Conference moira::parenting

    Lyn,
    
    Perhaps you can talk to him and ask him what he thinks would make him
    feel better??  I know that in the past in dealing with depression with
    a few friends, as well as myself, a lot of times it's difficult to
    understand just WHY you're down - it's just that you ARE.  Being able
    to put your finger on something that might make you feel better can go
    a long way in identifying just what's wrong.
    
    I have found in the past with Chris, that this time of year tends to be
    more difficult for him (he's 8).  There can be a lot of apprehension
    about a new school, a feeling that people are/might be expecting too
    much, that sort of thing.  Chris puts the pressure on himself, and he
    doesn't feel much better till after he's been in school for a few weeks
    and is settled and a lot of those questions in his head have been
    answered.  Maybe he feels afraid he'll disappoint you.  Or that he has
    no control over his school or something like that.
    
    Also with his recent naughtiness, this would probably only exasperate
    his fear of failure.  When Chris was about that age, we started him in
    Karate, and that did Wonders for his self esteem and confidence -
    perhaps something like that could help??
    
    Good Luck!
    

    I have no experience so take it with a grain of salt but...
    
    I read something a while back that argued against going overboard re: 
    positive reinforcement  and acknowledgement. The argument went
    soemthing like this..
    
    	You have an adorable toddler who is the center of attention. He 
    walks into the room and the world stops to say hi or to acknowlege how
    adorable he is. As he grows up, he becomes a perfectly wonderful kid
    who simply is not the center of attention to the same extent. It is a
    disappointment. He can't live up to the expectation he set up for
    himself; he can't be so worthy as to be the center of attention.
    
    It may be that he is growing up and sensing a shift in the way people
    are responding to him. Maybe he needs some help understanding that folk
    are less patient with older kids and more likely to make a big deal of
    babies. Maybe people are treating him more like they treat other
    grownups.
    
    Good luck.
     

    Lyn,
    
    Markus has also gone through periods like that.  Sometimes it is really
    an event that has caused it.  Othertimes it has just been general
    circumstances.
    
    It might take care of itself once school starts and I would wait before
    doing something for that to occur.  Kids this age thrive on routine and
    regularity.  Markus is particularly prone to this and is happiest when
    he knows what to expect.
    
    If it doesn't improve once he's back in school, then start looking for
    things that might be worrying him.  Once Mark got like this because he
    hadn't been doing well in school.  He'd missed a lot through illness
    and then gotten lazy.  He knew he had to work to recuperate the
    situation but had fallen so far in a depression that he couldn't
    remotivate himse;lf.
    
    In this case it was the bad marks at the end of the period and a hard
    discussion with his French teacher that got him "kick" started again.
    
    Vacation times and boredom are the most dangerous things in a child's
    life :-) just MHO.
    
    Cheryl

>    Vacation times and boredom are the most dangerous things in a child's
>    life :-) just MHO.
    
    This is just from theory, so consider it accordingly ...
    
    I noticed that ADHD was mentioned.
    
    One of the characteristics of ADD in general is an increased need
    for positive reinforcement in some tasks, and difficulty accepting delayed
    gratification or contingent reward.  They often have to either have
    constant help staying motivated, or need to find something that
    thoroughly engrosses them, or they become bored even more quickly
    than other kids that age.
    
    From my understanding of ADHD, boredom can very quickly lead to 
    purposelessness and depression, because their tolerance for
    non-favored activities is lower, and people around them will run
    out of patience with them more quickly.  This is probably true somewhat 
    even with treated ADHD.  This might reinforce their perception that
    'no one likes them.'  
    
    If that's what's going on, finding something special he can immerse
    himself in to keep focused and achieve some small successes might help.  
    
    Just an idle thought.
    
    								todd

Lyn,
	A couple of thoughts. One has already been expressed to a degree. That is 
the fact that it's almost time for school to start. Have you placed a lot of
emphasis on this lately? Maybe your child is feeling some pressure you haven't
detected. Sometimes the more you keep telling the child that a certain situation
is no big deal the bigger it gets in their mind. New school, new teacher, 
possibly a new routine make a lot of things happen in a child's busy mind. 
	The second is on the subject of depression. From what I've seen and heard
myself and from what you've described I would expect this is a possibility. It
is impossible though for a lay person to make any kind of rational analysis. 
Things that often symbolize depression, taken out of context, may look like a
beacon but be nothing more than "a bad day at the office". A chat with a
professional psychologist, especially one who already knows something about
the child, certainly wouldn't hurt and at least might reassure you that this
really is no big deal.

	Hang in there,
Mike

    WHAT'S ADHD?
    
    K.

    Attention Deficit H...?  Disorder.
    

    Some cases of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) seem to have concomittant
    hyperactivity (that is excessive motor activity in addition to lack of
    goal-directedness of activity), and some do not.  Or there is a
    difference in degree in any case.  Sometimes, without hyperkinetic
    activity, this simply appears as a learning disorder, or task completion 
    difficulties.  The type with hyperactivity is sometimes called ADHD, 
    Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, though the terminology is not
    always consistent.  
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd
    

    Wow, I thought I was the only one pulling out my hair!
    
    Brian is now almost 9 and will be in third grade this year.  Since last
    weekend he has become excessively paranoid about everything.  He won't
    go to sleep by himself anymore (afraid he will DIE in his sleep). 
    Asked me if he could die from aids and if he could get it.  I explained
    how it was only transmitted by blood and the next day when a neighbor
    girl cut her knee getting into the pool he came in screaming that blood
    got into the water while he was in it and he surely got SOMETHING from
    it.  He won't play with any of his friends because he heard one of them
    had lice and he's afraid of getting it.  He cries for no reason and
    just "feels sad".
    
    I was going crazy trying to figure out what started this sudden change
    in behavior.  Then someone mentioned school and how he had such a bad
    experience last year with an awful teacher.  That never occurred to me
    he was concerned with school starting, but his behavior change did
    occur right after we went "back to school" shopping. He seems to have
    calmed down somewhat since we had a talk that he would have a new
    teacher, and he would be in a trailer which he was excited about
    because they are airconditioned and the rest of the school is not.
    
    He is playing with friends again, but still having trouble sleeping by
    himself.  But I'm hoping when school starts and he sees it won't be the
    same as last year things will get back to normal.
    
    It does boil my blood to know there is a teacher at that school that is
    doing this to kids and still teaching.  There is another child in the
    neighborhood who had her two years ago and his mother said he was
    depressed and had tense behavior for the whole summer.
    
    So you might look for problems with school and day care providers.

    re: .9,
    	I wonder what this awful teacher was doing that had such an effect
    	on some students.  Did he ever talk about what was going on while
    	it was happening ?  Was she telling them horror stories 
    	and giving them AIDS lectures ?
    
    	I've seen that done in some schools, and I'm very much against
    	it being done by teachers, unless they have a lot of medical
    	training, and understand how to broach the subject without
    	making kids paranoid.  
    
    	It's not obvious to teachers who do this,
    	I think, that kids will often generalize their 'germ' lectures
    	and become frightened of everything, like what happens to
    	med students when they take parasitology courses.  All of a sudden
    	everything seems to be crawling with nasties, because you're
    	looking for them, and you know they're out there.  Little wonder
    	some kids get very disturbed from an educational experience like
    	that.  They need to be told about the body's remarkable protective
    	abilities, and understand their own power first, developing 
    	a secure self-image, before finding out about all the nasties out
    	there that they later might need to worry about.
    
    	Hard to believe that a nine year old would be sexually
    	precocious enough that there would be an overriding need for
    	a frightening AIDS lecture !
    

    The local school did do a film regarding a little boy who had aids, but
    I believe Brian was not in school that day.  They did give the parents
    an opportunity to not have their child view the film.
    
    As far as the teacher goes she was basically just degrading to the
    kids.  Nothing really concrete that we could take to the principal. 
    Although we did speak with her.  For instance during the 2nd grade play
    I noticed Brian wasn't singing the songs in his usual outgoing self. 
    Afterwards I asked him why and he said the teacher told the kids not to
    sing loudly because then "if they messed up everyone would hear their
    mistake".  Here are some other examples of his school year, I basically
    came to the conclusion that this teacher didn't like and couldn't deal
    with boys in general and they paid the price.
    
    1.  Each child in the class was given jobs to do, the girls got jobs
    like class reporter, historian, current events (bringing in newspaper
    clippings); and the boys like Brian got jobs like picking up the coats,
    empting the trash, cleaning the blackboards.  These jobs were never
    rotated, they had the same job all year.
    
    2.  For the 2nd grade play Brian brought home the sheet to memorize
    parts in the play on a Thursday, but the note said nothing as to when
    the tryouts would be. The tryouts were the very next day so of course
    Brian wasn's prepared.  When I talked to the teacher she said I
    wouldn't make any difference because none of the children new the lines
    and she "already knew who would get the parts".
    
    The examples go on and on!
    
    Brian's behavior change throughout the year:
    1. Use to love to write stories and illustrate them.  At the beginning
    of the year did at least 7 stories in the first two weeks.  And the
    rest of the year only did maybe 4 total.
    
    2. No longer has interest in reading, in fact avoids it.  Teacher would
    only let kids read in class the were proficient.
    
    3. Has developed tension in his neck and asks to have it massaged
    constantly.
    
    4.  All his other teachers (PE, Music, Library) gave him the highest
    possible marks, and this teacher only marked Satisfactory on
    EVERYTHING.
    
    5.  Overly emotional, no longer a leader, quite Karate which he had
    been doing since he was 4, would never talk about school and what
    happen there, etc. etc. etc.
    
    Man am I glad that is all overwith.  Unfortunately we didn't put 2 and
    2 together until the end of the school.  Every parent I talked to that
    had a boy in her class said "I guess my child and her just don't
    "click"!!!  Believe me, I won't wait that long again before checking
    into things.

    How terrible.  Mine aren't in school yet, but this makes me feel
    like I should try to observe their teachers every year, especially
    if there is a behavior problem.  I wonder what
    the law says regarding parents making surprise visits to school
    to determine whether there is a problem ?  I don't seem to remember
    there being any provision for this ?
    
    								todd

re: .11

>    As far as the teacher goes she was basically just degrading to the
>    kids.  Nothing really concrete that we could take to the principal. 
>    Although we did speak with her.

	You spoke with the teacher or the principal?  If not the principal, I 
don't mean to be critical, but I think that the things you relate in your 
note, both the specific examples and the generalizations to be very much 
"concrete."  And furthermore, I would recommend going to the principal again 
this year and urging other parents who have encountered similar situations 
with their child to also go to the principal.
	This is not in the spirit of "getting" the teacher.  If she is a 
really good teacher, then she will want to modify her approach so that she 
doesn't have the negative effect on students.  If she is not a really good 
teacher, well, then she deserves to be gotten.
	Old dogs CAN learn new tricks.  I've seen it happen in one of my 
kids' elmentary schools.  A long time teacher who was a legendary yeller, 
particularly difficult on boys, with the principal's help was able to modify 
her style.  The only reason it happened was because enough parents 
complained to the principal.

Clay 

    It may sound so trivial, but my brother had a teacher like that;
    he upset most of the parents and eventually was relegated to being
    the school music teacher.
    The lasting effects are amazing. The whole family was traumatized by
    the fallout of this teacher's mean and careless ways. We STILL take
    about him at home, and its been 20 years!!!              
    
    Monica

    
    Tangential reply......
    
    My pedi recommends homeopathic remedies (Bach's, actually) for a
    variety of emotional ills.
    
    The thinking is that there *is* stress in children's lives, and this
    stress can be modified, re-directed, or possibly even alleviated.
    Homeopathic remedies (experts, correct me if I'm wrong) introduce
    MINUTE amounts of what I'll call irritants; the body reacts by
    producing a soother to the irritant.   
    
    Various natural substances has been postulated to affect how we feel;
    such as anxiousness over changes in our lives, or fears about the dark,
    or illness.  There's specific substances that address tendencies to
    lie, or tendencies to 'mope', or lethargy caused from depression. 
    There's a fair amount of literature that supports homeopathy as another
    tool in pursuning balanced health.   
    
    The remedies come in little brown bottles with droppers, and you simply
    drop 2-3 drops, 3-4 times per day.  cost was $8-10. MY experience has 
    been that there IS an improvement, but it's been subtle. Since that's 
    all I was looking for, I'm satisfied.   
    
    If you're game to try, there's NO side effects (that I'm aware of) and
    your pedi should be able to help. If not, contact me, and I'll try to
    help.
    
    
    Jamd

    re: .15,
    	The side effect you most need to be concerned with in homeopathic
    	cures is with the pill form of the remedies.  They are sugar based,
    	and left in the mouth for long periods, so you would need to be 
    	concerned about tooth decay, just as if they were sucking on 
    	candy for that length of time.
    							todd

    I really don't know much about homeopathic, but I don't care much for
    using a lot of medication.
    
    As far as talking to the principal, we did go and talk to her and she
    got rather upset that we were going around questioning other parents. 
    She wanted us to sit down with her and the teacher and go through all
    this.  I was willing to do this but my husband was so beside himself
    towards this teacher he was concerned about the teacher's safety if he
    was in the same room with her (ex-Special Forces!)  And since it was
    only 3-4 weeks before school would let out and the fear of our son
    reaping reprocusions from the teacher while in her class, we elected to
    let it drop.
    
    Hind sight is 20/20.  I wished we would have had that conference.
    

    
    Bach's flower remedies (the homeopathic aid I mentioned) come only in
    dropper form. 
    
    Your mileage may vary. I don't think of it as medicine, as much as an
    adjustment to diet, similar to limiting sugar before bedtime and such.
    
    Jamd

	The laws vary from state to state and the rules regarding parent visits
usually vary from school to school. Most allow only "controlled" visits in order
to avoid disruption of classroom activities. 
	I urge you to take the reply you entered here with all the specifics
and go back to the Principal with your concerns. You should also urge other
parents who have similar concerns to do the same thing. I don't believe you
should go seeking out others who have problems with this teacher but if there
are parents who have expressed or do express similar concerns urge them to
also do so. Teachers work in incredible isolation. Parents are often the
only indicators of problems that Principals have, especially with elementary
students. A good Principal (and a good teacher) will welcome your input. 
	Every teacher has a "style". Usually the teacher will modify that
style once they have assessed the needs of the class. Some won't. The most
disconcerting item on your list to me was the fairly obvious gender bias and
favoritism you expressed. I would ask the Principal if the school board
has any policies regarding bias and harassment. A general reminder to all staff
in these areas can often cause people to perform their own self evaluation. 
	One more comment. If you believe the Principal is not responding to
your concerns then go to the Superintendent. 

    I have to take exception to .14. (I think it was) saying one teacher
    was relegated to being the music teacher.  The male music teacher at
    our elementary school is the real reason my daughter learned to love
    playing the clarinet.  He brought discipline and order and a love of
    music, as well as taught proper decorum at school events.  He was sure
    to praise the child in front of his/her parents after events, and it
    sure sounded sincere.  I don't think we have enough music/arts
    sometimes.
    
    Just had to get that off my chest.
    KB
    

RE: .14 and .20

	I sort of ignored the "relegated" bit because I didn't feel it was the
author's opinion as much as it was a description of the perception of actions
taken by the school system.

	That said, no teacher should ever be "relegated" to teaching something
they aren't qualified or certified to teach. Any Principal or Superintendent
who moves a "bad" teacher to Art, Music, Phys. Ed., Health, etc. simply to
"get them out of the way" should be fired. It's simply bad management.

    rathole alert!
    However, to defend myself (and yes, your assumptions were correct
    here). I do not think that moving this problem teacher to teaching
    music did anyone any good. This seemed to be the school's decision
    in order to get the heat off of themselves. In the end my brother and 
    all his classmates were less stressed and unhappy since they did not
    have to suffer his teaching all day long.
    A sad day for the arts there, I will agree.
    
    Monica

    Thanks for the rathole alert, Monica.
    
    Parents, please continue this discussion only on the topic of
    depression and moods.
    
    Thanks,
    Mod

    On a related note to my basenote, he seems to be seeing the DOWN side
    of every situation.  He makes comments, but usually things that sound
    so negative.  His tone of voice seems down too.  I no longer see eye
    contact, unless I specifically tell him to look at me.  He walks away
    while I am talking to him.   He is also becoming very careless about
    things, breaking or trying to break toys and other things on purpose,
    something very out of character for him.  He is refusing the basic
    everyday things like making his bed, cleaning his room, seeing that
    clothes make it to the hamper (literally outside his bedroom door),
    seeing that reusable clothes are at least off the floor if only on the
    bed neatly.  Toys everywhere, not careing if they can be stepped on and
    broken, not even caring that if I do step on them I could get hurt.
    I've actually heard some of the children at the preschool sound a
    little short and frustrated with him, is this normal?  He is getting
    very demanding, whiney, easily frustrated.
    
    Help me out here, is there something I should be doing differently, is
    this defiance, depression, what do I do to boost his self esteem?
    
    We all need a vacation, but I don't want to take a Mr. doom and gloom
    with us, we're taking some time over the next two weeks. (Husband is
    off two weeks, I'm taking the end of next week and the beginning of the
    following week)
    
    This is not the attitude I really want him to start first grade with!
    
    Lyn

    
    he's bored 8-) Lets hope school starts soon.
    
    Simon

    Lyn, 
    
    I have not read all the other replies in detail but felt 
    compelled to share our story...
    
    After my daughter Amber started kindergarten she became
    more and more depressed. She hated the world, the world
    hated her and noone could reach her. She was getting
    glowing reports from her teacher but once she got home,
    she'd acually abuse her family and friends.
    
    Out of desperation, my husband and I took a local parenting
    group therapy. Four couples got together each Saturday
    morning with a family therapist and talked about their
    problems. The therapist got to know Amber through us and
    we began to know and trust the therapist. After the six
    week group ended we introduced Amber to Kimberly, the
    therapist. Amber then began private therapy. 
    
    It was the best thing we could have done. Amber was clearly
    depressed, no doubt about it but it was relatively easy to
    fix. Kimberly discovered that Amber was still upset from
    the sudden and violent death of Shamu the Killer Whale at
    Sea World. Back in one of the earlier versions of Parenting
    I created a topic called "Mommy, what is a Soul?" This was
    because of Amber's reaction and questions about the death 
    of this beautiful animal that we had seen just the day 
    before her untimely demise.   
    
    But there was more to her problem than just her first glimpse
    of death. Kimberly discovered that Amber was and still is to
    some extent, lacking in 'fantasy' skills. We were told to read
    her some wonderful fantasy books like "James and the Giant Peach"
    and to help her with fantasy play.  This seemed to be the key.
    She had no outlet for her emotions but anger. Fantasy play encourged
    role-playing. 
    
    The one other thing the therapist noticed was that Amber was
    bright and responsible. Kimberly called Amber's k-garten techer
    and asked her to describe Amber to her. The teacher said that
    Amber was like a grownup and her most responsible student and
    a big help in class. Kim asked the teacher to immediately *stop*
    asking Amber to help. Treat her as the child that she is. Do
    not allow her to stay in class during recess. Amber had been 
    having trouble relating to anyone but adults and adults were
    encouraging that behaviour. 
    
    With this info in mind, we have been able to reduce Amber's
    depression to the occasional "nobody likes me, everybody hates
    me (think I'll go eat worms :*) stuff.  Each time she starts
    it up, I sit down and we talk. She bounces right back to her
    happy self again.
    
    Amber loved Kimberly and just last month, almost three years
    after her therapy, asked if she could see Kim and show her that
    she has grown into a fine young lady. We haven't visited with Kim
    face to face yet but she called Amber a couple weeks ago and
    they had a nice chat.  
     
    Good luck,
    Jodi-
    
    
    

    Sounds like there are a lot of things going on in AJ's life
    that he may not have the words to explain.  He just lost Big
    Kitty (is that right?) and he probably already feels that
    Barney is lost too, even if he doesn't "know" it directly.
    Combine that with first grade coming up and the "let's play
    with the thermostats" incidents and he's got a lot of new
    and big things going on all at once.  
    
    Does he *know* (deep down inside) that he didn't do anything bad 
    to make the kitties sick and die?  Kids don't always understand 
    that they don't have that kind of power.  
    
    For years I thought I made my piano teacher die because I was
    "bad" because I wasn't practicing enough.  She died a few days 
    before a recital and I was absolutely convinced that it was my 
    fault - she couldn't bear the thought of me playing badly in the
    recital and it killed her.   I never said anything about it to 
    my parents - I didn't want to "admit" that I "made her die", I 
    didn't want to go to jail.  Nobody told me what happened, or 
    asked me how I felt - it was all hushed up and not discussed at 
    all so my imagination/reality ran wild.  I was about seven years 
    old when this happened and it wasn't until I was into my teens 
    until I found out that she died of cancer!  
    
    Conni
    

    Well, Brian is getting better now that school has started and he saw
    for himself that he had a new teacher.  I'm hoping she'll be great for
    him, she's brand new out of college.  Last year she taught on a
    rotation basis for fill-ins, so this is her first full fledged class. 
    At least she is energetic and excited about teaching as opposed to some
    of the teachers that are burned out.  
    
    However, we still have a problem.  Although Brian seems to be over his
    depression and sadness during the day, he still has this REAL fear that
    he is going to die.  I though this was getting better in that he was
    now able to go to sleep on his own as long as our dog slept in the room
    with him, but the other night I listened in on his nighly prayer and
    his whole prayer consisted of "Oh dear God please don't let me die
    tonight", over and over about 20 time.  And last night at midnight our
    other dog woke me up and I went in to check on Brian and he was
    kneeling beside his bed praying the same thing again.  He really has
    this fear of dieing.  And is especially asking questions regarding Aids
    since he see's so many ads regarding it.  I've explained to him about
    the only ways to get it were very remote.  However frequently he asks
    if I'm SURE those are the only ways you can get Aids.
    
    Sometimes I think he possibly had a dream where he actually saw himself
    die, although most people say you would wake up before you actually saw
    youself die or else you would have a heart attack.
    
    This seems to a REAL fear of Brian's and not just a tactic not to go to
    bed.  Has anyone experienced this before.  I'm really at a loss of what
    to do.  Do you wait it out a little longer to go to a counselor?  I
    asked him if he wanted to talk to the school counselor who he really
    likes and he said no, he would be too embarrassed to talk to anyone
    else about it that he wanted to work it out himself.  
    
    Belinda

This reminds me of when I was young ... I certainly had a fear after
a friend's father died ... I can't say I'm over that fear but I'm slowly
coming to terms with living with it.  But one thing that stands out so
very clearly is that when I was young, I was made to say goodnight prayers
and among those prayers was the almost universal ...

"Now I lay me down to sleep 
 I pray the Lord my sould to keep,
 and if I should die before I wake,
 I pray the Lord my soul to take."

This terrified me ... and moreso after this early experience of death.  It
still bothers me today ... there was a song that used these lyrics, but
ended "... feed Jake" and all the memories flood back.

So ... I stopped nightly prayers ... and I do not ask my kids to say
goodnight prayers ... That's not to say I don't want them to pray ... but
considering that my eldest went through a fear of death, I'm so glad she
wasn't reminded nightly with a prayer.

Stuart

Another thought, how long does he take to actually fall asleep after
going to bed ?  If he takes too long, it gives him time to dwell ...
consider keeping him up a little longer, or get him to read books.
If he falls asleep with a book in hand, that's better than worrying himself
to sleep ... for he will actually sleep better, even if shorter.

Stuart

    Reading a book to fall asleep is a thought.  Right now he does lay
    there and dwell for a long time.  I'm only afraid that he will stay up
    so late that he's cranky the next day.  Unfortunately he doesn't read
    quit well enough not to need help on some words.
    
    And no they don't say the "standard" nightly prayer.  We've always
    taught our kids that when they pray just to talk to God just as they
    would talk to us.
    
    And we haven't had any deaths in the family lately.
                                                    

    I think I would try for an outside counselor (one Brian doesn't know,
    not affiliated with the school) and explain to Brian that this new
    counselor will *not* talk to anyone else about *anything* s/he & Brian
    discuss.  That in fact before they can *become* counselors they have to
    promise not to <divulge patient confidences>.  That even if you meet
    the counselor in the grocery store one day, the counselor will not make
    any reference to how you know him or her, or what you've been
    discussing.
    
    Maybe this assurance would work about the school counselor, but other
    kids might see him go into the counselor's office, etc....
    
    Best of luck.  How horrible to have such fears  :-(
    
    Leslie

>    Reading a book to fall asleep is a thought.  Right now he does lay
>    there and dwell for a long time.  I'm only afraid that he will stay up
>    so late that he's cranky the next day.  Unfortunately he doesn't read
>    quit well enough not to need help on some words.

Well, it really cannot be a lot worse than depressed ... 'coz he's probably
not sleeping all that well now if he's so fearful ... Maybe listening to
music quietly may help too ... basically anything to disract his mind from
dwelling on anything in particular (if it wasn't a fear of dying, it could
well be something else).

Stuart

It sounds like the fear is one of dying while asleep. This may well be associated
with another common fear of young children - darkness. 

Kids, for the most part, will fall asleep when their ready and will sleep in the
wierdest positions with the strangest things around them. If the child will
read independently in bed that's great but the point is that the child should
be doing something that will occupy their mind with something other than 
thoughts of death. If possible you or your SO may want to spend some time reading
to your child at bedtime. 

I too have been through a similar fear. My youngest daughter had a young friend
who was murdered by his father and she still, at age 10+, has a nightlight in her
room. We often talk quite frankly about death and dying but then we have
experienced a number of losses in recent years. The school counselor helped her
to understand what she was dealing with and that it was okay to talk about and
to experience it but if anyone is looking to counselors to "make the fears
go away" they ought to think twice.

>music quietly may help too ... basically anything to disract his mind from
>dwelling on anything in particular (if it wasn't a fear of dying, it could
>well be something else).
    
    That's an interesting insight.  It sounded to me like a fairly 
    specific fear of catching AIDS and dying, but you could also think of
    it as a sign of generalized anxiety that would appear in another form
    if the death issue itself were resolved.  Sometimes the stressors
    are multiform and hard to pin down.  We faced that sort of challenge
    with 4 yr old Ian's eating refusal.  Substitute signs of coping stress
    seem to pop up in new areas of his behavior as one obvious sign 
    is resolved.  Seems to be a never-ending process.   Hard to teach
    a 4 yr old how to retrain their cognitive habits to more positive
    ones when you have no idea what they're thinking !
    
    							todd

    
    Caveats: I am not a psychologist, or in any way qualified to speak on
    emotional issues.
    
    it seems to me that some of the behavior is obsessive (sorry;
    that's an emotionally laden term, but it's the best one I could find)
    
    I would be concerned that he's using a "charm" to be safe, and that the
    charm needs to be re-activated (getting up in the night for more
    prayers) perhaps his current charm will work, but if it continues to
    take more and more, I would suggest a child orineted counselor thatcan
    help him verbalize his fears
    
    
    wishing yougood outcomes
    JAmd

    Gosh, I really feel for Brian.  I had a childhood overshadowed by
    fear, and I know how painful it is.  I don't have any special advice
    for you, other than couseling as mentioned by others.  It's just like
    taking a child to the doctor when they are sick...I certainly wouldn't
    hesitate.
    
    My son is only 3, so I don't have the experience of dealing with an 
    older child.  I do know that the thing that would have made ME feel
    better would have been to get lots of support, and to be held close
    when I was frightened.  Often times reasoning doesn't go as far in 
    helping as a good long hug and reassurance.
    
    Just an opinion (and lots of sympathy),
    
    Linette
    
                                        

Additional suggestions:

Talk with him some more, as best as you can.  Learn more about his fears.

If he's afraid of dying at night, how does he expect to die?  A burgler?
Fire?  AIDS?

Then try to treat it by what he is fearing.  If AIDS, perhaps he doesn't
realize that if he caught AIDS today that it would be *years* before he would
die of it (or probably years, but I'd leave out the probably when speaking
to him about it).  Even if he doesn't believe you somehow about how you could
catch it, at least he'd know that he'd wake up to see the morning.  That
might help.

If he's afraid of dying at night because of the burgler or fire, that might
be why having the dog there has helped him.  I know *I* would feel better
if I had a dog on the infrequent nights that my spouse isn't at home (like
the last couple of nights - I did my own fair share of praying for the safety
of my family).

In addition to a dog helping, there are other things that might help.  My 5
year old son sleeps with a light on all night; I'm not talking about a little
bitty "night-light".  I'm talking about a regular *lamp*.  If your son is
afraid of something sneaking up on him, or something he might not be able
to see right away in his room, were he to wake up, then a 40 watt light (or
maybe even brighter) may help him with his fears until his fears eventually
go away.

One last thing, about books: my 5 year old doesn't read, but he looks at books
all of the time.  He has heard us read them so often that he knows the stories
anyway, and when he looks at his books, the stories replay in his mind.  He
also has a portable tape player and several books on tape, so he can look at
the pages while the tape player "reads" to him.

Good luck.  Please keep us posted.

       Carol

    Thanks for all your replies, there were a lot of good ideas. 
    Unfortunately I wish it was something specific like Aids or a burgler. 
    But it's whatever comes to his mind.  The other day while sanding a
    wall down with his father he asked if the dust got in his mouth would
    it kill him.
    
    After reading these replies I have also thought about reading a book
    myself onto tape.  That way he can also listen to a familiar loving
    voice while concentrating on the story.
    
    I'll let you know in a week or so how things are going.
    
    Thanks again for your support.  I don't fell so near the end of my rope
    now.

Has anyone said anything about death to him?

Has he heard anyone tell him he was going to die and go to hell, or something
like that?

    Carol

    Not to my knowledge, but he spends a lot of time with friends in the
    neighborhood.  So who knows!  But I have asked him all of these
    questions, and he can't remember anything that triggered it.  We have
    not had any deaths in the family lately either.

    Hi all,
    
    I wrote the base note, and have been out of work since last Labor day,
    just getting back a couple weeks ago. Here's an update.
    
    I was, for lack of a better term, backed into a corner by AJ's first
    grade teacher just a few weeks into the school year.  I can only say I
    am tolerating her this year and looking forward to June probably more
    than he is.  She *insisted*, just about threatened me, that unless I
    put my child on some sort of behavior mod medication that she would be
    sending him home to me on days he was "out of control".  I had meetings
    with the teacher, the principal and the guidance councelor.  I in turn
    requested an "emergency TEAM meeting" which is under the special needs
    guidelines and this included all the above plus the town's special
    needs director.
    
    I did comply, seek out a private psycaitrist(?SP) who prescribed
    Ritalin for him, at first very low doses to he how he reacted to it,
    and gradually increased it just slightly.  All I can say is that as
    opposed as I was to "drugging" a child, the ritalin has made him turn
    around completely.  He improved so well he actually had to do some
    catching up to make up for the first few weeks of school when he was
    disruptive, and not learning.  He now gets a half dose afterschool at
    the day care providers, and we follow the same routine on weekend of
    two full doses and a half dose mid afternoon.  The half dose makes the
    prebedtime ritual much more tolerable, and going to be a breeze.
    
    The teacher, well that's another story.... She tells me how much he has
    improved, in the same breath with how she has lowered her expectations
    of him "considering where he's coming from, and his LD".  That sends a
    red flair up in me, but at least he's learning better.  She also has
    made comments like she has never had a child who has required so much
    of her time and energy.  My unspoken reponse was I'm sorry you finally
    have to earn your living honey!  His grades are at least stable, but My
    husband and I agree that if any child is being played as a scapegoat,
    it is my son, and we just can't wait for school to end in June. 
    Unfortunately, he may just be pushed through the first grade by her,
    just so she doesn't have to ask him to repeat next year.  She had
    suggested early on that he be transferred to another first grade room,
    I flately refused.  This on the basis that he would be transferred in,
    and likely "labeled" as an troublesome child, plus the teacher she
    wanted to receive him is something in excess of 60 years old, and I'm
    told extremely strict!
    
    I won't say Ritalin is a miracle drug, we still do therapy sessions
    every three weeks with his "talking doctor" as he put it to us, and
    seem to see a new child, one in whom I  can be very proud and pleased.
    
    Lyn

Lyn,

I'm so happy that AJ is more manageable; it makes
such a difference when a kid is pleasant to be around.

I gotta say, tho, that his teacher's attitude gives me
the willies.  My first thought was get him out of her
classroom, but given the situation you describe, it's
probably better to leave him with her.

Have you talked to the principal about her attitude?
Is the principal aware that there is a possible
scapegoat situation going on?  S/he needs to know,
so she can keep an eye on the teacher.

It's a hard call - would speaking up make it worse
or better?

Pat

    Speaking up is my middle name.  The day the proposal was made to
    transfer him out, and pushing me to "drug him" I went home and
    literally for three days I had a phone growing out of my ear with calls
    to various state and private agencies, trying to ascertain my rights as
    a parent of a special needs child, no his needs are not that great.
    
    The principal is aware of the situation, unfortunately she is on the
    teacher's side, as is the guidance councelor who requested weekly
    meetings with me.  I always had this paranoid feeling that these
    meetings were in some way trying to establish that either I wasn't
    stable (mentally) or I was some how an abusive of neglectful parent.  I
    stopped them by telling her I was too busy during the pre holiday
    season, and then when I got back to work I said any future meetings
    were impossible.
    
    As an example of the teacher, I got a call from the teacher a couple
    months ago, requesting that I come "immediately" to the school.  AJ was
    in the principal's office because he had "exposed himself".  Well I
    went to the school at lightning speed (the school is literally just
    around the corner from home) and found that what had really happened
    was that AJ had used the bathroom ajacent to the classroom, another boy
    knocked on the door indicating he too needed the room, AJ in his haste
    to let the boy in came out with his fly open, nothing else!  The boy
    told the teacher, who hadn't even seen the incident first hand, and
    reacted by taking him to the principal's office and calling me.  As I
    sat in the guidance office with just the councelor and I, the teacher
    had been called out for something, AJ had been told to go eat lunch
    with his class and return to the room, I looked at her and and we both
    had the same innerthoughts, "what the HE** am I doing here, why didn't
    the teacher just tell AJ to zip up his fly and go on with whatever she
    was doing, instead of blowing this whole thing out of proportion!?" The
    G.C. agreed with me and simply answered with I dunno.  At this point I
    think that if AJ were to Hiccup the wrong way that he'd be marched to
    the principal's office!  So it's going to be a verrry long time til
    June!
    
    Lyn

Lyn,
	Glad to see you back and still pushing the 
system! 
	I have found over the last few years that as
changes in special education law and budgetary 
constraints have pushed more schools into the 
inclusion/integration model that the greatest impediment
to special needs children's success in school are
the regular education teachers who don't feel they 
should have to deal with it and the parents of kids who
aren't on ed plans but fear the "dumbing" of little
Johnny's class. 
	Many schools have made the mistake of attempting
this model without professional development and with 
little interaction with SPED staff who can assist with
understanding. 
	IMHO, the right way to go about this is to
use the SPED staff as team teachers in classrooms with
reluctant regular ed. staff. Over a period of time
the SPED teacher is usually able to get the other
teacher to understand the issues and changes do happen.

Mike

<	IMHO, the right way to go about this is to
<use the SPED staff as team teachers in classrooms with
<reluctant regular ed. staff. Over a period of time
<the SPED teacher is usually able to get the other
<teacher to understand the issues and changes do happen.

Mike,

Would you mind explaining this more?

There was a 30 minute HBO special on yesterday (during the superbowl!)
called "Educating Peter".  It was a documentary about mainstreaming
an 8 year old with Down's Syndrome into a public school third grade class.

Some of my observations:

	Only 15 children in the classroom?

	Two teachers, or one SPED and one assistant

	A collection 15 of the most remarkable third graders 

        The six third grade boys who had just left our slumber party would have
        eaten Peter for lunch.

	I volunteer in my son's classroom.  Occasionally, I'm forced to bring
        my 18 month old Casey with me.  The disruptions in the classroom
	caused by Casey's behavior were very similar to those of the
	Down's Syndrome boy in the movie.  No one in their right mind would
	try to mainstream Casey into a third grade class - why Peter?  The
	film director made the point several times that Peter would *never*
	be academically on track with the children his class.

Thanks,

Rochelle

Okay, let me address some of the issues you raised.

Number of kids in the class: 

	The dynamic of class size is relevant at 
extremes in the spectrum. That is to say that 30 kids
are alot harder to deal with than 15 but 28 isn't a
whole lot different than 30. Yes, smaller is better
for every child. What do we strive for? a student to
teacher ratio in 3rd grade of 20-22 to 1 is on the
better side of reasonable. Is this affected by 
"mainstreaming" of special needs children? Sure. 
Depending on the prototype of the SPED children in the
class you will need to lower the ratio in order to
ensure that every child still gets the best education. 

Team Teaching:

	This has many advantages and few disadvantages.
First of all it effectively lowers the student teacher 
ratio and allows all the children to get more personal
attention. It allows the regular education teacher to
acquire skills in the area of special needs that they
most likely didn't have in coursework, sort of on
the job professional development. It allows the SPED 
teacher to hone teaching skills with non-SPED students.
It allows for both teachers to utilize their strengths
and improve their weaknesses. 

"remarkable" students:

	Children are the most adaptable entities you'll
ever see. One of the reasons language immersion works so
well at an early age is that the kids really have no 
expectations and no preconcieved notions. The same comes
with exposure to disabled children (whether they be
learning disabled, physically disabled, or both). One
of the outcomes of our advances in medical science is 
that more and more children with severe disabilities
are enter school. Many of these children have the same
mental capabilities as you and I. Some do not but they
can still learn and be enriched. Our commitment as a 
society is to provide for a free public education in
the least restrictive environment possible. Every child
deserves to reach for the stars. 

Slumber party gang:

	Remember that the expectations of the environment
are very different. Kids know instinctively that 
school=work and slumber party=play. To be honest I've 
seen my own kids interact with LD and PD kids both
inside and outside of school and they treat them pretty
much the same as they do their other friends. 

Behavior issues:

	This all part of the learning process for both
children and staff. My question would be was this 3rd
grade class Peter's first exposure to the "mainstream"?
If so, he's likely to react like an 18 month old until
he understands what is expected of him. Just because
he can't be on the same "track" (God, I hate that word!)
as his peers is no reason to exclude him. Most of his
peers, especially at this age, aren't on the same "track"
in every subject anyway. 


	There will always be some children who will not
be able to be mainstreamed. We will always need to 
maintain some alternative programs to deal with these
issues. There will always be both students and teachers
who will fail in the mainstream environment. However,
the vast majority of SPED children will become, in some
way, productive adults in the regular education 
environment without harming the education of their 
peers.

  <<< Note 563.47 by WWDST1::MGILBERT "Education Reform starts at home...." >>>

Thanks Mike for the excellent response!

I have to admit - I was originally horrified at the thought of children
being "distracted" in their very own classroom by a SPED student.  I'm 
warming up to the idea, it seems to work well under the right conditions.

Optimal third grade class is 20 - 22 students per teacher!!!
Wow, I did some volunteer work yesterday at Sean's school, one class of 37
and one class of 36.  *My* son is thriving in this situation, but kids with
special needs usually end up in the public school system (speech therapy,
ADD, etc.) At the beginning of every school year, there is a kind of sad ritual
of figuring out who didn't come back. I wish there were a way to change the
system so we could allow special needs kids to stay with us.

On a positive note, we have been pleasantly surprised by the cultural
diversity of our suburban school.  Caucasion students are now about 17%
of the population.  Not only has our son blossomed, but our whole family
has experienced a new respect for those who don't look and talk like us.
(In the words of my 3 year old).

Thanks Again,

Rochelle

Just so I'm not misquoted:

	I stated 20-22 as on the better side of reasonable.
That's definitely not optimal. Optimal class size at the
elementary level, according to most learning studies, is 
about 15. The caveat to that is most studies assume only 
1 educator in the classroom. It is my experience that most
successful elementary schools strive for the use of aide
time in the classroom to make up for the difference.

Mike

Note: 563.45
Author: WWDST1::MGILBERT "Education Reform starts at home...."

>	I have found over the last few years that as
>changes in special education law and budgetary 
>constraints have pushed more schools into the 
>inclusion/integration model that the greatest impediment
>to special needs children's success in school are
>the regular education teachers who don't feel they 
>should have to deal with it and the parents of kids who
>aren't on ed plans but fear the "dumbing" of little
>Johnny's class. 

*>	Many schools have made the mistake of attempting
*>this model without professional development and with 
*>little interaction with SPED staff who can assist with
*>understanding. 

Mike,

Bravo to you for speaking out on this issue. Unfortunately it's
becoming quite common for school departments to look at inclusion as a
cost saving missive rather than the more important social benefits
inclusion offers. Articles such as the recent one in US News and World 
Report only fan the flames for those of us with special needs children.
Inclusion will save money in the long run, if and only if the educators are 
trained in the child's special needs, the class ratio supports it, and the 
teachers are willing to do the extra work to make involving the class with 
the SPED student interesting and enjoyable. If the child isn't made to feel 
like they're an equal in the class, then all of the advantages of inclusion 
have been lost for that child. I don't see how inclusion will save money in
the short term, unless the needs of the whole class are compromised. It costs
money to train teachers, hire aides and therapists.

Sometimes, though, outplacement is the best solution, especially when MA
educators have to consider the second part of the equation, "maximum
feasible benefit". Hopefully the outplacement will be for the short term,
with the goal of inclusion when the child is truly ready for it. Everybody
wins with this scenario, if the child is capable of it.

Chris