Conference moira::parenting

Hi,

My son, David age 4, is also uncircumsised. He has also developed an
infection, which one doctor diagnosed as urinary tract and prescribed an
antibiotic. Since then, we've seen another doctor, so says it's not urinary
tract, and that the antibiotic prescribed wouldn't have done anything for a
UTI anyway.
So, he's now on a different antibiotic, and has to have his poor penis cleaned
and ointmented twice daily. NOT a good experience for either of us.
We see the doctor again tomorrow, but I'm also intersetd in hearing more about 
the "juvenile" circumsion story.

Chele

    I had my son done at birth so I haven't had to go through this but my
    cousion did with his son who was either 4 or 5 at the time.  He
    developed an infection that was so bad his penis swelled up like a
    balloon and they had to do an emergency circumsision on him.  He was in
    some pain but I heard its like having a vasectomy and I know what a guy
    goes through first hand becasue my husband had one done a couple of
    years ago and had to pack it in ice for a day and then couldn't do any
    heavy lifting.  I suppose when your son has his done like the doctor
    said he will have to run around without a diaper on to let it heal. 
    Becasue if you keep it covered and not let the air get at it it will
    not heal as fast.  It will also hurt the first couple of times I know
    this cause they told me that my son would cry the first time he did pee
    after having his done and he was 4 days old.
    
    But at 2 it shouldn't be to bad.  Try to catch him before he pee's or
    keep a pail in the room and tell him you are playing a game and
    everytime he feels he has to pee to do it in the pail.  This also might
    be a good time to start potty training.  Just be carful of how much
    liquid you give him and take him to the potty about every 15 minutes or
    every half hour what ever you feel comfortable with.
    
    I know he will be just fine.  I will just be a little painful for a few
    days.
    
    
    Liz

    My sister-in-law (ex but we're still friends) had to have this done
    when her boy was two and I was there for the home recovery.  Her son
    started these infections because the foreskin wouldn't retract all the
    way to be cleaned.  Well, it wasn't long before bath time was hell. 
    She worked second shift so I often took care of Aaron and would give
    him his baths.  As soon as a bath was announced he started to scream,
    "don't touch my penis!"  And the odor from not being able to clean it
    and the infection was incredible.  So we tried to get him to clean it
    himself but it hurt too much.  Finally, she agreed to  the Dr's
    suggestion to get him circumsized.  Best decision!  Yes, he couldn't
    wear a diaper and that was a little difficult (put plastic sheeting
    done and then sheets over that), but within a few days he was so much
    better and within a few weeks he could take a bath without it being a
    major ordeal for all parties involved.

    Would it be possible to put a cotton diaper on rather loosely?  I
    remember a relative having it done as a toddler, but I don't remember
    if he had to go bottomless or for how long.
    
    -sandy
    

Ginny, are you sure it has to be done?  Is it possible there is a way to
treat the problem without the long term effect of circumcision (plus the pain)?
Is this a recurring infection?  Can you treat what causes it?

My grandfather died of cancer of the penis, so we looked into this quite a bit
before we had our first son.  Evan is 5 now, and even though it takes years
for the foreskin to fully retract, the only problem we have had with his penis
has been when we used bubble bath or another soap-type product that irritated
his penis.  In that case his penis has been sore and red, and when we bathed
him in just plain water the next time (plus Dial soap and baby shampoo) it
was just fine.

     Carol

    I had all my sons done at birth.  I just wanted to caution you--
    it looks *really bad* for a day or two.  At first they put some
    gauze with vaseline on it on the penis, but my husband was stunned
    when the gauze fell off to reveal a penis the color of a poppy.  His
    eyes bulged and he croaked, "That *can't* be right."  But it was.
    
    Just be prepared...  With my sons, they only had real pain for the
    first day or so. It healed quickly.  

    There was a heated discussion on circumcision in the men's notesfile. 
    Viewer caution is advised - the opinions are very strong,
    particularly those opposed to the procedure.  Several men discuss
    problems in uncircumcized penises, which may prove informative.
    
    NOTES> ADD ENTRY QUARK::MENNOTES
    
    The moderator is Steve Lionel, a very level-headed guy.
    
    Laura

I just read through the discussion on circumcision in Mennotes and found
it quite upsetting, immature, rude, and not all that helpful.  I don't 
recommend it.

Thanks to all who have replied here, thus far.  I will post an update after
I take my son to the doctor tomorrow, for a checkup.

Carol, regarding the suggestion to not do the circumcision if the infection can be
treated, I don't consider this a good option considering that he had
to be rushed to the emergency room in extreme pain, and had to endure
continued pain for some time.  I would not want to have to put him through
that again.  I know that the circumcision will cause him some additional
pain, but I'm hoping it will not be too severe, and that once it is over
that's that.  He does not have a urinary infection, rather an infection
from the foreskin not being open enough.  The urologist felt the problem
would be a recurring one, unless he gets circumcised.

I especially like the suggestion to cover the carpets with a plastic liner
and a sheet, I hadn't thought of that one.  I will also put a pail out, and
may even purchase a potty seat, as I'm nearing that time anyway.  Also,
I'll ask the doctor tomorrow about using cloth diapers.

Keep those thoughts and ideas coming, and I'll keep you'all posted.

Ginny

    We chose not to circumcise our son Robin.....it was not
    recommended, with the only drawback anyone suggested was
    that I am.....he notices we look 'a little different'.
    So we've discussed it.

    He did have some trouble pulling back the foreskin, and our
    doctor fairly forcibly drew it back when he was very young,
    basically 'loosening' it up.  There were a few tiny connecting
    tissues keeping it from easily coming back.  After that, it
    has been very easy for him to wash it well during his bath,
    and he has never had a problem.

    You may not need circumcision as all...just loosen it up
    so it can be cleaned.
    bob

    Having heard the stories of two men in my family (my cousin
    and my husband) who had to go through this procedure as an
    adult, I would suggest that you consider that if not now, would
    it be a problem that needed solving later? (my husband turned out
    to be one of the few that had complications.....his story makes
    men he tells it to cross their legs and cringe...)
    
    Monica

    	Ok, I have some questions for those of you with older uncircumcised
    boys.

    	Our boys are both uncircumcised and to date our pediatrician has
    told us to, literally, not do anything with them. No cleaning, no
    pulling back of the skin, leave them alone.

    	We have passed this information onto our daycare providers and they
    just "wipe and dipe".

    	My question is this, (it may sound silly but realize that I am not
    the proud owner of an un-circed penis). When *do* you start taking
    care of it and what kind of care is involved?

    	Marc is circumcised (don't really think that that is a family
    secret is it honey?) and so we are rather in the dark as it were with
    regards to operating instructions. I keep hearing about this pulling
    back of the foreskin to clean it, when does that start and should it be
    something that an adult does for the child or should they be old
    enough to do it for themselves first?

    	Also, as long as we are on the subject, could someone either here
    of offline please enlighten me as to what goes on during sex with an
    uncircumcised penis, do you have to do something before, during or
    after?

    	I will always wonder if we made the right decision to not
    circumcise, but if means that our babies were saved unnecessary pain,
    then I feel we made the right choice for us.

    	And now it's off to mennotes.

    			Wendy

    Probably something I should have mentioned back in my reply - Aaron's
    foreskin was just getting tighter and tighter as he was growing.  There
    is a name for this condition but I don't remember what it is.  And he
    was getting these chronic infections almost every other week at the end 
    of his penis from this.   After you'd get done with one cycle of
    antibiotics another infection would spring up. 
    
    This whole infection cycle went on for several months before
    my SIL could make up her mind about the having her little boy go
    through surgery.  Finally, the infections and doctors visits and
    treatment were far more physically and pyschologically draining than
    the surgery - for both of them.
    
    It was startling to see the gauze and vaseline wrapped around his penis
    - that was a big bandage.  And it was sore but only for a couple of
    days really.
                                   

    Wendy, we too chose not to have Kendrick circumcised, however my
    husband is not circumcised either.  I surprised that your husband
    did not want to do it to the boys since he is, that is usually the 
    case.  I too did not see a reason to have it done and our pediatrician
    did not think is necessary either so there was no pressure at all.
    My first husband was not circumcised either but we never had boys so
    we never faced that decision.  
    
    I was told when Kendrick was born not to pull the foreskin back or
    try cleaning underneath that it would start to retract by itself as
    he got older.  I have never tryed to retract it and clean him the 
    same as my girls (well kind of - I think it is easier to clean a 
    boy).  
    
    As for having sex with an umcircumcised man - I have been with both
    and really do not see that there is a difference at all.  When the 
    penis is erect the foreskin is forced back by itself - not that I 
    stare much :>)  David has never had a problem nor did my first husband
    with cleaniness or infections.  I always thought that they were cuter
    when they had their little blankets to cover them :>) :>)  Just my 
    opinion!!
    
    Regards,
    Vickie
    

    Vickie,

    	Thanks for the information.

	Regarding them being "cute". I recently read a book called
    Operating Instructions which is a very funny journal of a woman's first
    year with her son. She thinks that an uncircumcised penis looks rather
    like a rat caught in a garden hose.
    	
    	One of those unforgettable life images.

    				Wendy

    Thanks Wendy!
    
    -sandy
    

    
    Oh, Thanks, Wendy!
    
    Diet Coke up my nose and all over my keyboard....!
    
    
    Jamd

This discussion reminds me of a joke I heard recently.  A 50-year-old man
decides to convert to Judaism.  He's about to be circumcised, and he's
worried about how long he'll be laid up.  So he asks the rabbi.  The rabbi
replies, "After I was circumcised, I couldn't walk for a year."

I needed that.  :-)

Ginny, I hope things go well with your son.  Maybe I can learn from your
son's experience a little of what Justin will be going through when he
has his hypospadius surgery.

As for cleaning, penile cancer is most common in men over 50 years old who do
not clean under their foreskins (this we got from the American Cancer 
Society, as well as from doctors).  Our doctor told us not to force the 
foreskin back, but to only pull it back as far as it would go (which was
essentially not-at-all, in the beginning) and then just to pour water on it.
When Evan turned 3 or 4 he started pulling the foreskin back himself as I would
pour the water.  Now I'm trying to get him to do both, which is a little 
awkward for him since he has to do each part one-handed.  Some doctors
recommend using soap; ours did not.  The only problem Evan has had with his
penis has been (as I mentioned before) when we used bubble bath or TMNT foam
soap or some other specialty item.

       Carol

To update you all, from my original base note...

I took my son, Sawyer, to the pediatric surgeon Thursday and he felt we
should do the circumcision as soon as possible.  He was surprised at the
very small opening.  So, I scheduled him for last Friday.  He did really
well during the ordeal, but afterwards he was complaining that it hurt.
He seemed pretty uncomfortable for most of Friday, but by Saturday he
was much better. (he was well enough by Sat. afternoon to go to a party
with me, and he had a great time!)  

It does still look quite red, but seems to be healing nicely.  He had a
bath last night, and that didn't seem to bother him.

Apparently, he had a borderline hypospadius.  Not severe enough to warrant
doing hypospadius surgery, but the doctor/nurse felt this was partially
why the foreskin was failing to retract.  So, they did a little extra
'patchwork' during the circumcision.   

As far as after surgery care is concerned, when I changed him (yes, he
was allowed to wear diapers) I would glob on bacitracin, and gave
him advil for pain.  He had to wait 48 hrs to take a bath.

I'm glad it's over, and I'm glad that he had the surgery at 2 rather than 12
or 22, but it would have been easier/safer on both of us if we had had
it done at birth.  

If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.  

Ginny

    
    Thank you for this information, I intend to file it away for future
    (maybe) reference.
    
    				Wendy

    Ginny,
    I am glad it's all behind you (and Sawyer),and that now he is doing
    fine (or should I say better?)
    We are Jews so Shachar was circumized when he was only 8 days old
    (9 days but that was for jewish reasons...).But as far as for his penis
    being red-it is even at 9 days old,and it looks "odd" for some time.I
    was sure that the Mohel did not do a good job,and I even took Shachar
    to the doctor because at 4 weeks old his penis was red and the top was
    kind of black (I was sure there was some kind of blood-block).The 
    doctor reassured that the "job" was prefectly well,and now at 3 1/2 
    months it looks just fine.
    One silly question though-if so many kids go thru penis infections and
    we know it's because of the "extra" skin,then why don't you circumize
    them at birth?
    Rivka
    

    
    	Because we only *hear* the stories about the kids that have
    infections and that have complications, why write about your child if
    nothing is wrong or different?, makes for a very boring note ;-)
    
    			Wendy

    Well, there is a procedure which does not require full circumcision.
    Essentially, a slit is cut in the foreskin to allow it to open more
    and then they remove any adhesions.
    
    I have maintained in earlier dicsussions of this in earlier
    versions of parenting that doctors recommend circumcision purely
    to cover themselves.  They take the approach that they'd rather
    get it pver with.  Well, circumcision does not eliminate UTIs in
    men ... although it does reduce them.
    
    One common problem with not cleaning the penis is Yeast infections ... 
    not simply bacterial infections!  Generally water is fine.
    
    I hate the thought of this procedure, I hate the thought of any
    unnecessary surgery come to that, and doctors are renown for that.
    Often a surgeon will put someone under the knife if they know it
    will solve a problem, even if it is like taking a sledge hammer
    to crack a peanut.  They get paid good money for procedures ...
    be it caesareans, tonsillectomies (now out of fashion) or circumcision.
    
    Yes, there are necessary circumcisions ... but I'd really want to
    make sure first.
    
    Wendy ... nothing special about sex!  The only thing I have heard
    is that a woman *may* be at greater risk of cervical cancer from men
    who do NOT keep their penis clean.  Smegma sloughed tissue and moisture
    and ... is a good breeding ground for bacteria and yeast.
    
    Stuart
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Stuart!!!! You are still here! Great news.
    
    			Wendy

    Still here!
    
    Just got back from vacation and hit upon this string so my answer may
    be a bit late.  
    
    In general, they do not circumsize here unless requested or for
    religious reasons so none of my "men" are circumsized.  When Dirk was
    small his foreskin was very tight and the pediatrician said to gently
    pull it back when I bathed him and it would loosen over time which it
    did.  This is also how we washed them and taught them to wash
    themselves.  I did not use any bubble bath, just plain water.
    
    We've never had any problems.
    
    Cheryl

    I have a related question. My son, who is 4 1/2, is uncircumsized. His
    foreskin does not fully retract -- it goes about 75% back, but is still
    attached partially to the head of his penis.  I've mentioned this for
    the past couple of years to his pediatrician; she seemed to be
    unconcerned.  To allay my concern, she referred us to a urologist. He
    too seemed to be unconcerned.  
    
    I'm concerned because a book I read (Child Care Encyclopedia, Penelope
    Leach) says that the foreskin usually detaches by age 2. 
    
    Does anybody have experience with late-detaching -- or partially
    attached -- foreskins?  Should I be concerned abouth this? I haven't
    noticed any additional detaching for the past 2 years or so. 

My pediatrician says that it doesn't retract fully until age 4-5.  She
says that even the *circumsized* boys have this situation (don't remember
how she phrased it, but what's left of the foreskin or whatever apparently
does this, too).  No big deal.  I thought it would go *way* back; it doesn't,
and our older son is 5.

      Carol

The last 4 weeks have been disturbing for us as our then 3 month old develope
a urinary tract infection that has never gone away.  Alex is uncircumcised. He 
started out with a fever which because of his age alarmed the doctor. Once they 
eliminated ear infection they went right into testing for UTI. He also had to 
a blood test.  The urine test is very unpleasant because he has to be 
catheterized. On some followup tests they were able to just "bag" him. Anyway, he 
tested 
positive for a UTI. Because he was only 3 months old, doctor was concerned he was
having reflux from bladder to kidneys or that there was some other damage so he
wanted Alex to have xray and ultrasound of his bladder, valves, and kidneys.  The
tests were done after he had been on antibiotics 10 days. These were also 
difficult tests for a baby but he came through fine.  Result was everything was 
normal except he still had a UTI. In fact there were different bacteria growing 
this time.  Doctor was quite concerned because as soon as antibiotic killed off 
one bacteria, a different one grew. He felt this condition was not good 
especially in a 3 month old. Doctor felt there was strong possibility this
would be chronic problem for Alex which if long term could result in kidney
damage. Doctor consulted with pediatric urologist from Children's and both felt 
we should have Alex circumcised.  By the way, our pediatrician made it a point to 
say he and the doctor he consulted with don't think boys should be circumcised 
under normal circumstances.  They felt because Alex started out so early with
these problems and has had 2-3 different bacteria already, he will have continue
to have problems. They felt he is one of the small percentage of kids whose
anatomy indicated circumcision.


We asked for a second opinion and last week went to MGH and consulted with a 
pediatric kidney specialist (Actually there were two physicians who saw us.)  I'm 
so glad we talked with someone else as he was the first one who really tied 
everything together for us.  The MGH doctors basically felt we'll end up 
having Alex done.  They recommended we keep him on low level antibiotics for 6-8 
weeks and have him retested a few days after he is off. If infection is back,
go right for circumcision. If it is gone, wait and see. The other choice was to 
have him be on long term antibiotic (6-12 months) and hope he outgrows the 
problem.  The doctors felt the infection is in the penis tip and being trapped
by the foreskin. Alex has a bit more foreskin than is normal tho that doesn't
necessarily mean this is why he is getting the infections.  Now that he has
had a few, he will probably be more suseptable to them in future - even if we
have him circumcised!  During this entire time, Alex had also been very fussy,
wasn't moving his bowels regularly any more, and generally having lots of
gastrointestinal upsets. These doctors felt all the problems were related and
we'd just have to ride it all out.  My pediatrician, his peers in the practice
and his nurses never linked these other problems together and just blew them off.
That annoyed us.

Anyway, we've decided to do the short term antibiotics which will keep him on
another 2 weeks for a total of 6-7 weeks.  If another infection comes along
we'll have him circumcised.  We don't want to do long term antibiotics.

I don't regret not having him circumcised at birth. I certainly regret his having
these problems but who can know what will happen.  My husband and nephew aren't
circumcised and have never had problems. All the doctors we've talked with
said there is a very small percentage of uncircumcised males with problems. I 
agree we just hear about the kids having problems - all these normal little 
foreskins running around just don't have a story to tell.

Kathy

>have him circumcised!  During this entire time, Alex had also been very fussy,
>wasn't moving his bowels regularly any more, and generally having lots of
>gastrointestinal upsets. These doctors felt all the problems were related and
>we'd just have to ride it all out.  My pediatrician, his peers in the practice
    
    I think that gastrointestinal upsets are more or less to be expected
    when a child is taking antibiotics. Those drugs may kill off the good
    bacteria that aids digestion. My kids typically get terrible diaper
    rash when they're on antibiotics.
    
    Hope Alex feels better. 
    Sue
    

>Anyway, we've decided to do the short term antibiotics which will keep him on
>another 2 weeks for a total of 6-7 weeks.  If another infection comes along
>we'll have him circumcised.  We don't want to do long term antibiotics.
    
    If another infection comes along won't you have to wait till
    after it goes away before you have him circumcised? 
    
    Just a thought,
    
    Malcolm
    

> If another infection comes along won't you have to have to wait till 
> after it goes away before you have him circumcised?

Yes we will.  It will be another 10 day treatment then the surgery.

K

Matt,

As a first and unrelated item, please ensure that when you use notes with
windows, that you limit the width of your lines to under 80 characters for
those of us who note with 80 character terminals!  Thanks!

This may or may not be a problem ... normally the foreskin is sort of
attached along the back edge.  Your best bet would be to take him to a 
urologist to be sure.

A good urologist would, if it is abnormally attached, be able to make a
small incision to release it, and tidy it up so that it is not a problem
without having to do a circumcision.  Rarely is there an actual need
for a circumcision (other than the normal pro-con arguments) ... minor
attachment problems, or tight foreskin problems can usually be fixed by
a caring urologist without a circ.

Stuart

    Hi, I read much of this note with interest as my wife and I went
    through many question and answer sessions with pediatricians over the
    years for my son whom we chose *not* to  circumsize 10.5 years ago. My
    concern then was that I noticed that the skin remained  securly
    attached on the underside of the penis head almost all the way to the
    tip for  years. But becuase I was so reassured so many times I decided
    I must be concerned for no  reason. I was always told "don't worry, it
    will detach later".

    Well it recently came to mind while I was in the bathroom and my 10.5
    year old was in the shower and I asked him how it was. He told me it
    was the same. I looked and sure enough when retracted the foreskin is
    still securly attached to the entire underside of  the penis head
    nearly all the way to the tip. In fact it almost looks like it's not 
    detachable. Like the foreskin is somehow "welded" to the head of his
    penis. It was also very red around the edge of the attached area and he
    said it was very tender when retracted as it always used to be.

    There are no problems with infection and never have been. But this does
    not seem  normal to me. If he tries to retract it it simply gets red
    and hurts.

    Anyone know whether this is OK to leave this way at his age of 10.5
    years? I'm concerned  about it causing problems for him later on and of
    the possibility of it reducing physical  sensation for him later in
    life. Any thoughts??

    Thanks, Matt
    

     Matt,

     My son Matt has a similar problem and he just turned 9 this past Nov..
     I had him rechecked at his physical then and the dr. told him to "work"
     it by getting into a plain water tub (no soap, bubbles, etc.) and
     work the foreskin 10-12 times, then take his bath/shower.......he'll
     do this for the year until his next physical and, if there's no
     progress by then, we'll go back to the urologist (we went the last
     two years in a row for checks) to have something done.  My son's
     dr. did say that a full circumsion would not be necessary but that
     the urologist (?) could do a procedure to "loosen" the remaining
     attachments...........

     reason for the bath instead of doing it in the shower.....dr. said
     it should be easier for him, that's all..........also, do it before
     any washing/soap so there's less slipping................

     Since it is a situation in our house too, please pass along any further
     info you get or what you do/results ?

     Debbi

    Thankyou very much for the replies. 
    
    RE: .34 Debbi, did the doctor share why this was important, what
    problems if any it might introduce?
    
    Thanks again.I will get him checked and report back any new info. or 
    progress.
    
    Regards,
    -M

re : .35 

>    RE: .34 Debbi, did the doctor share why this was important, what
>    problems if any it might introduce?
    
>    Thanks again.I will get him checked and report back any new info. or 
>    progress.
    
     The dr. didn't give any specifics to us at the time, but in past
     discussions, the issues of cleanliness, possible infection under-
     neath due to lack of same, and implied discomfort later in life
     if things don't move easily during "the act" (if you know what I
     mean !)............

     Debbi

I don't want to start a new topic on circumcision, so I'll just drop this
here.  No discussion intended, but if one gets going then I'll move this
to its own topic.  This article is about circumcision shortly after birth.

      Carol

***********************
    RTw  02/02 1110  Circumcision makes boys sensitive to pain - study

    LONDON, Feb 3 (Reuter) - Circumcising baby boys may make them more
    sensitive to pain, Canadian doctors reported on Friday.

    Dr Gideon Koren and colleagues at the Hospital for Sick Children in
    Toronto tested boys who were being vaccinated against diptheria,
    whooping cough, tetanus and flu and analysed their response to the
    painful jabs.

    "Circumcised boys had significantly longer crying bouts and higher pain
    scores," Koren wrote in the Lancet medical journal.

    "Neo-natal circumcision may affect pain response several months after
    the event."

    Other studies have shown that the body "learns" how to feel pain, and
    Koren said circumcision -- often a baby boy's first experiece of pain
    -- may prime them for future trauma.

    "Because memory of pain is believed to be important in subsequent pain
    perception...it is conceivable that pain from circumcision may have
    long-lasting effects on pain response and/or perception," he wrote.

    "Male circumcision is the most common neo-natal surgical procedure. It
    causes intense pain and measurable changes in behaviour that last up to
    one day."

    Koren said there seemed to be no other explanation for the different
    reactions from the infants. They came from diverse backgrounds and were
    all healthy.

    "We also looked at cultural background (eg, being Jewish) and maternal
    intervention on pain response. No significant associations were found,"
    he said.

    REUTER

    PAH!!
    
    I have 3 boys, all of whom are circ'ed.  The oldest one, you LOOK at
    him and he cries out in pain.  The other 2, as long as the blood isn't
    interfering with their playing, you won't know about it.
    
    Although I've always wondered if being born so early made some sort of
    impact on Chris - but to hear Cathy talk about Brad (that he's tough), 
    I'd have to discount that summation....
    
    

<           <<< Note 550.38 by CLOUD9::WEIER "Patty, DTN 381-0877" >>>
<                           -< Not on our family.... >-
<
<    PAH!!
    
Don't hold back, Patty.  Tell us how you really feel.  ;-)

    Carol  :-)  :-)

    
    .... Well I've never been accused of holding back (and sorry, I didn't
    read the part about 'starting a new discussion' till after my reply).
    
    But I am curious if others agree/disagree with the findings in this
    study ...
    

    Patty, one can't take a small sample of people, which in your case is
    your three boys and draw far reaching conclusions from such a small
    sample.  BUT, I know what you mean.  My reaction is 'PAH' too. It seems
    to me that experiencing pain is rather inevitable (laugh) if your a 
    human being.... even if your a baby human being, circumcised or not.
    
    I think people make a big deal of this circumcison issue. I don't think
    its all that important, USUALLY.   There are unusual exceptions to this of course
    BOTH on the pro and con sides.  For every horror story someone tells
    about THEIR son being circ'ed and THIS happened, that story can be
    countered with someone else with a NON circ'd horror story.... phimosis
    for example.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    No, I wasn't reaching a conclusion - just making an "argument" for the
    "other" side.
    
    In reality, knowing my kids and friends with kids, and all that stuff
    ... based on those experiences, the first child seems to be much more
    sensitive to pain/discomfort than any subsequent children.  Maybe
    that's because subsequent kids get used to having their older sibling
    sit on them (or whatever) (-:
    
    Just a little dissention ....

    I think the parents behavior changes with the 2nd and 3rd child because
    as the parents become more experienced they become more casual in how
    they treat the childs minor injuries.  And, as you said after being sat
    upon allot (by brothers and sisters) I suppose they become
   caloused to the rough and tumble.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    Good point ...... I barely look if Jonathan falls down (he's the 3rd),
    but I know I used to be very anxious when Chris (the 1st) would fall.
    
    It's kind of funny because I don't think anything of it, but if we're
    out walking and he topples over, I just stop and wait for him to get
    up, and you should *SEE* some of the looks I get for not helping him!!
    
    -Patty