Conference moira::parenting

    Kirsten, I've had first hand experience with this and AJ is now 6-1/2! 
    Except in his case it's a poop accident, which smells and offends
    almost everyone.
    
    What we usually do, and this really can make you NOT enjoy things like
    family celebrations and events, is about every hour either call him in
    from play and just inform him it's time to "try" the bathroom, or in
    some cases he will protest being taken away from play, in this case we
    (as quietly as we can without making a scene) very firmly that NOW is
    when he should try the bathroom, or he can not return to play until he
    "does something".  the " " words are sort of like KEY words, that mean
    something.  You might try developing your own set of key words.
    
    This works as a normal daily routine, in the morning the very first
    thing he MUST do is go to the bathroom, nothing can be done until he
    has gone "poopie", as well as another of these types of rituals just
    before he has his bath at night.
    
    Just for what it's worth, if you think there may be a bladder or
    urinary infection have the urine tested.  In my case the pedi can run a
    quick dip-stick test in the office.  All you have to do is provide a
    "clean sample" which amounts to having her pee into a clean sterilized
    bottle.  (baby food or mustard jars are ideal for this, boil them first
    for 5 minutes and cap the empty bottle while still hot).
    
    Lyn

When my mother was a little girl she did the same exact thing.
Finally my grandmother told her that the next time she did it
she was going to have to wash her own clothes and clean herself
up.  And she stuck to it, so the next time my mother had an
accident while outside playing with her friends, she had to come
in and clean up for herself.

She never did it again.  (And at 60+ still remembers it very well).

It cames up as my 3 year old son does it every now and again, but 
when he first started that behaviour he was too young to be able to
clean up like that.

Might be worth a try.

    
    Thanks for the suggestions.  I have tried making her come in and
    "try" every hour or so.  Sometimes it works sometimes she'll have
    an accident a half hour later.  I really hate to make a big deal
    of it, I don't want to embarress her in front of her friends.  
    
    Yesterday when it happened it was about 3:00 and I made her come in,
    take a bath and put on her pajamas.  She goes through about 3 outfits a
    day and I'm sick of doing all the laundry.  The new thing were doing is
    not allowing her to get an ice cream when the ice cream man comes by
    until she stops.  
    
    I really don't think she has anything wrong with her - it's just like
    she says "I dont' want to miss anything"
    
    Kirsten
    

    I think this is quite normal....when kids are really enjoying
    what they are doing, they dont want to quit for anything!
    And, isnt that GREAT!

    Of course, they do need to take responsibility for their bodily
    functions too.  When our kids have an 'accident', they come in,
    take off their wet clothes, wash out their undies and put
    them in the drier.  They have to sit next to the drier until
    they are dry....usually about 5-10 minutes.  Its not a punishment,
    but it is sort of a timeout.  They then can put on clean clothes
    and go out and play again.  They dont have many accidents.
    bob

    
    If she did this once in a while I wouldnt' be complaining.  I know that
    she's just a kid and she having alot of fun.  
    
    But, this is happening all the time and it's aggravating.  I'll say
    "Breanne why don't we go and go to the bathroom"  She'll say "No, I
    don't have to go"  Then 10 min. later..........  ooops..
    
    Kirsten
    

    I think my strategy would be to ask her to think about which is worse,
    missing out on 5 minutes of fun (for a bio-break) or missing out on the
    rest of the afternoon outside.  Then I'd stick to it (accident = inside
    [no TV, either] for the rest of the afternoon).
    
    As for the embarrassment factor, the playmates can be told "my Mom
    wants me to check in with her every [so often/half hour/whatever], and
    I didn't, so I have to stay inside now."
    
    Leslie

    I think a lot of it is the age.  I remember Chris doing the same thing
    at about that age, and now Jason (Just 5), has been having little
    accidents for the past month or two.  I'm not with him all the time,
    and he usually wets at the sitters, so there's not a lot I can do about
    it.  She reminds him, and that seems to help.  I can't STAND the
    clothes, and the fact that he's never more than a few feet or min or
    two from a bathroom.  
    
    The last time that he had a problem I told him that if he didn't stop,
    he was going to have to start wearing diapers because it was ruining
    his clothes, and I was too tired to do all the laundry.  The thought of
    that seems to have shaped him up a lot, and now it's MAYBE once a week,
    if ever.
    
    I think perhaps if you didn't give Breanne a choice and MADE her come
    in and MADE her try, you'd see a big improvement.  It sounds like you
    just want to be rid of the wet clothes as much as anything.  Sometimes
    I have to make Jason try, and he'll whine and complain that he doesn't
    have to, and even if he tries he won't have to, but then when he gets
    in there, it's pretty obvious he DID have to.  It doesn't take them too
    long to figure out it's easier to just TRY than to spend 10 mins
    arguing about it with Mom, especially if you do always make them try.
    
    Perhaps also, you could take away some other "big girl" privilege if
    she doesn't get better?  And, it is worth a trip to the Dr to test for
    a UTI - this should be pretty easy to gauge though - if she has an
    infection, when she goes (which would be very frequently), she probably
    won't have to go MUCH, but it will feel to her like she's going to
    explode.  It usually is fairly painful too, and she'd probably be
    complaining about that.  As well, in more advanced stages, the urine is
    cloudy, and sometimes "strings" of blood can be seen (looks like a very
    fine, short thread).
    
    Hope this helps - I know how aggravating it can be!  The worst part is
    I remember it took about 4 months before Chris was dry all the time
    again.  Sigh.
    
    If you're really concerned about embarassing her, perhaps you could
    have all her friends come in for a drink, and make them all go the
    bathroom as well - then she wouldn't "miss" anything.  Personally, I
    think you're better off, in the long run, making her learn to listen to
    you, and just come in and try.
    
    Aint they FUN??!  (-:

    I distinctly remember having this problem when I was a kid.  My friends
    were up the street about 10 up.  I did not like using anyone else's
    bathroom, so I would have to run home for a bio-break.  Of course, I
    always waited till the dam was about to break (still do, in fact).  One
    day (so the story goes) I squated in the driveway to do my business.  I
    don't remember that, but I do remember running home hoping I could
    physically hold it in with my hand as I ran down the street!!
    
    Now my kids will come running to the house and stand in front of the
    toilet jumping up and down and dancing all over screaming "I HAVE TO GO
    REAL BAD!!"  It would be less energy and hassle if they just yanked
    their pants and went...but no - let's tell everyone within ear shot!
    
    -sandy
    

    a couple of after thoughts too...
    
    I do NOT tolerate the "I don't have to do" routine, it is an ABSOLUTE! 
    you WILL come in NOW, you WILL at least sit for at least 2 minutes.  As
    a bit of background, my advise is based on that give me by a
    psycologist at Umass Medical center who specializes in toileting
    difficulties.  It was his suggestion that the 2 minute rule be invoked.
    It really does work for us, as much as he protests, he will usually do
    something, even if it's only to empty his bladder.  I do stick to the
    every hour rule, especially in situations like intense play, such as at
    the sitter's house, when we have little guests, or at family functions.
    (geez, summer is coming, and with it comes all the family cook outs!)
    
    Something else we have learned is that since AJ is "borderline" ADHD,
    his activity level makes it difficult for him to sit still for any
    length of time, something we were told that makes hyperactive children
    extremely hard to train.  Does your daughter have a very high activity 
    level?  Did this start happening all of a sudden, or has it always been
    that way?  As someone else said we too have used the method that
    afternoon accidents will find him bathed, in PJ's and in the house,
    sometimes bed or room for the remainder of the day, except long enough
    to eat dinner.  He too knows that he is the one responsible for getting
    his soiled laundry either to the hamper, or in many cases I will have
    him take the clothes down the cellar and put them into the washer. 
    This is something he doesn't like to do, since many times the cellar is
    fairly dark, and for some reason he's a little spooked going down there
    alone.  (no I'm not that cruel, 99% of the time the light right over
    the washer is turned on, there's windows all around, and half of the
    cellar is finished into a family room, only feet from the laundry area.
    
    Just as a note, we always shut the door almost all the
    way, but enough that we can peek in to see if he's playing or not doing
    what he is supposed to do.  We have had to remove anything he might
    reach from the sink countertop.  This after I found toothpaste imbedded
    in my good, fine tooth brush!
    
    It takes patience, I will be glad to give you the name of the
    psycologist at Umass,but not sure where you are.
    
    Lyn

    My son Alex 3.5 yrs has this problem about once a month (if that).  He
    always waits till the last minute before telling you he has to go to
    the bathroom and then it's a mad dash for the bathroom.  It's a good
    thing I have one down stairs and one up stairs.  He usually wet's
    himself when I don't go in and help him in these instances.  Then when
    this happens he will stand in the puddle and cry and scream for Mommy
    to come and clean him up.  Then it's wash the floor again, change his
    pants, underware and socks and sometimes his sneakers if he has them
    on.   He has gotten better at this and will know tell you sooner and go
    on his own.  I have told him that if he keeps having acidents then I
    will have to start buying diapers for him again and then he gets upset
    and starts to cry that he is a "big boy" and that he doesn't need to
    ware diapers anymore.  So I tell him he needs to prove to mommy that he
    can do this on his own and be a big boy.  He has been doing very well
    since then.
    
    
    Good luck, it will take time and patiants.
    
    Liz

    Lyn,
    
    Could you give more details about what the specilist suggested about
    toilet training.  Heather, my 4 1/2 will NOT poop on the toilet.  She
    will pee, pretty regularly on the toilet and is dry at night most of
    the time.
    
    susan

    Yup, glad to provide info.  I figure if I got something out of is, then
    it definitely is worth sharing.
    
    The doctor, who is a parent of small children himself, has on basic
    thought:  there really isn't any problem unless the child is stil
    "soiling" after age 5+.  He is very adament that preschools that
    "require" children be completely trained at age 3 are completely off
    base.
    
    He suggests a regular schedule for sitting on the toilet, suggested
    minimum of 4 even 6 times per day.  Start with minimum of 2 minutes,
    and build upward.  One suggestion that took a lot of will power on my
    part is DO NOT express ANY emotion (anger, disapproval) when the child
    has an accident (his term is "soiling incident", the word accident is a
    mis-nomer according to him)  Very matter of factly hand the child clean
    clothes, while still in the bathroom, and according to age and
    capability, either they change themselves, or change with your
    assistance.  Use a reward system.  In our case we had problems during
    warm weather, we simply told him that unless he had a "clean" day he
    would not be allowed in the pool after we got home, or during the day
    if it were a weekend.  Use a sticker chart, buy the smiley faces if you 
    can find them.  A smile indicates a good day, a frown (either sticker
    or hand drawn) indicates a soiled day.  Reward with something BIG, i.e.
    McDonalds etc when you've got two or three days of smiles.
    
    He also suggested a change in diet, we were to give him Metamucil
    cookies, one per day initially, worked up to one in the am, one on the
    way home.  The only problem there was the cookies seemed to fill him up
    and we had problems at supper.  We have used one tablespoon of mineral
    oil with and without the cookies, and occationally added a stool
    softener like colace.  His goal, and I really disagreed with him on
    this, was that he wanted to child to completely empty out, and (sorry
    for anyone who has a weak stomach) is to have the elimination to be
    applesauce consistency.  We finally agreed to disagree, that if he
    went, and there was no evidence he was holding back or in distress then
    some of the softeners and oil could be decreased.
    
    We are finally going away for a long weekend, this marks a milestone
    for us.  It's the first time I haven't packed pull ups, diaper doublers
    or enough underwear for a month! I think we've finally conquored the
    poop accidents!!!  (the doublers saved me tons of
    laundry as they caught the poop accidents, and many times that's all I
    had to change, I found them at Stop and Shop in Westboro)
    
    Please grab me off line, if you want this Dr.'s name.
    
    Lyn

The only accident's Breanne has is with pee.  She's fine on the other end.  
She had the same problem last summer but was younger then so it was easier 
to handle.  I feel she's just too old to be doing this.  And I know she can
control it - she does fine while at school, shopping or at night.  It
is only when she's playing.  

I think I'll try having her clean out her clothes herself and making sure that
she comes in and trys every hour or so.  

I know I'm guilty of letting it upset me.  I've even said to my husband that
maybe we should try ignoring it for awhile thinking she may be doing it for
a reaction.  But that didn't work either - Neither did buying Barney underwear
if she didn't wet for a while.  

Thanks for all your suggestions.

Kirsten

Kirsten,

   One more suggestion:  can you get her to use the toilet immediately
BEFORE going out to play?  I have the same problem with my daughter (3).
Before any excursion that I expect to take more than an hour or two
(including laying outside with friends) I ask her to use the toilet.
She is not allowed outside with her friends (or wherever we are going)
until she empties her bladder.  Period.

    Basically we bargain.  She doesn't get what she wants (to go outside
with her friends to play, or whatever) until I get what I want (she pees on
the toilet).  It is much easier to use this bargaining technique BEFORE
she goes outside to play than after whe is already in the middle of
a really fun game.

   On the rare occasions this technique doesn't work,  (ex - I have to go 
to an appointment and she refuses to use the toilet before we leave) I 
threaten to put her back in diapers (I only had to follow through on that 
threat ONCE).  But the threat of diapers may or may not be apprpriate for
a 4,5 yr old. 

- Carol

    I still keep a partial package of pull ups, and a partial pack of
    diaper doublers in his room.  (discretely tucked away in a small corner
    out of site).  Yes I did put him in the pull ups, it was after three
    consecutive "I will try to do better, mom"'s and he just didn't seem to
    be "trying" (to improve) at all.  We had a great weekend, yes it does
    do a mom proud to brag once in a while, he had only a slight stain only
    once during the whole weekend.  He had told us he "really" had to go
    bad, but it was while walking the beach and quite a ways from hotel in
    one direction, and the amusement area where there are public restrooms. 
    He did come back to the room and change his underwear and use the
    toilet.  We found no fault in anything he did, this simply wasn't his
    fault the way we saw it.
    
    I really had to think about all of you and this string last night.  We
    were on the way home from the beach, he was asleep in the back seat. 
    What happened was that our enjoyable weekend came to a screeching halt
    when we heard on our scanner in the car about a minor electrical fire
    in the Digital NR05 facility.  Because of my husband's job at DEC he
    must respond to these sorts of incidents.  Since we were on the highway
    at the exit near the site we ALL went with him, and AJ and I sat in the
    car while husband went to the fire scene to assist.  AJ woke up and
    told me he had to pee "real bad" and I'm looking around knowing there
    is NO way I'm going to find a real bathroom for him.  I finally with
    great hesitation found a rather dark area with a tree and told him that
    he could do it here, just this once.  AJ knew this was not a normal
    occurance, and I'm sure he understands this is to be done only in
    desperate situations.  BUT, you just had to be there to laugh, as he
    was going, a light on the end of NR04 aparently has a motion detector
    on it, the flood light went on and sort of blew our cover of darkness. 
    AJ sort of looked at it and wanted to know if "the guards were going to
    come and arrest us for doing this".  He quickly finished up and almost
    ran back to the car.  I spent the next several minutes calming him down
    and letting him know that he was not going to get arrested for peeing
    outside.  So I know he won't make a regular request of it.  There was
    by the way absolutely no one around us, we were two building away from
    the scene.  I couldn't ask him to hold it, not knowing how much longer
    we might be waiting, and knowing that home was 30 minutes away at best. 
    Ordinarily my inlaws would be home right up the street, but they are on
    the way to Florida, and only my husband knows where the spare house key
    is kept.
    
    It was a great weekend!
    
    Lyn

    I just reread my last entry, what I was trying to say is that after
    multiple attempts to stay clean we resorted to pull ups, but never use
    them during school.  AND we have not used the pull ups in close to a
    year, and the doublers have not been used in several months.
    Just to clarify!
    

    re: .11
    
    Our son also learned to pee on the potty regularly, but would not poop
    on the potty.  After 4 months of successfully peeing on the potty, I
    decided he was just stalling and needed some encouragement.  At the
    time, Daniel was wearing regular underwear during the day, but asked to
    be changed into a diaper when he had to poop.  When we were down to our
    last 10 diapers, I told him that we were almost out of diapers and
    asked him where he would poop when they were all gone.  He replied "the
    potty."
    
    So, each time he needed to poop in a diaper, I reminded him that the
    diapers were almost gone and we repeated the conversation.  We finally 
    used up the last diaper (except for the one I hid just in case!).  Daniel 
    held it in for two days, then he accidentally pooped on the potty while he 
    was peeing.  He was very proud of himself and we made a really big deal 
    about how proud we were of him.  I bought him pull-ups to wear at nighttime 
    instead of a diaper (he still doesn't stay dry at night), and he's been 
    pooping on the potty ever since.
    
    
                                   

	Kirsten,

	It sounds to me like you've got your daughter's situation
	well understood.  I was much the same way when younger - I hated
	to miss anything, and waited until the last possible moment
	to come in.  I seldom had a real accident, but I cut it as
	close as possible.

	One time while skiing, I waited and waited to go in.  I must have
	been almost 10.  When I got to the lodge, I couldn't get my skiis
	off.  I started to panic, which made it more impossible to get
	them off, and then just had an accident right there.  Soaked
	right through my ski pants and everything.  When the rest of
	the family came in for lunch, I was standing in front of the fire
	trying to get dry...

	Conversely, whenever we went out anywhere (stores, restaurants),
	I *always* had to use the bathroom.  My parents thought it was
	a game, and that I just liked to check out the bathrooms.  Unfortunately
	for me, I really did have to use the bathrooms frequently, but
	no one ever seemed to believe me (my sisters never seemed to need
	to go as often, so the assumption was that I didn't either).

	It seems to me that either suggestion of putting your daughter on
	the potty before going out to play, or calling her in once per hour,
	or both! would work.

	Karen

    I haven't read the other replies but had to add mine.
    
    I had this problem when I was a kid. It lasted a long time. My mother
    was frustrated and I was humiliated and made excuses to cover.
    
    I think I had to go to the bathroom more than other kids and was having
    too much fun to stop. Perhaps you can call her into the house now and
    then on some other excuse, like to help you wiht something. She may
    find she has to go when she is doing something else.
    
    Good luck. Please, for the sake of the little child in me, don't get
    too upset with her. Kids like to play...

    OK, this is a little off the subject but...
    
    A good friend of my kids, Jake, is 8 years old. We take Jake
    with us to movies, amusement parks, etc.  Jake can never go
    for more than � hour without hitting the bathroom. We went
    to see a movie on Monday and he went before, twice during and
    after the movie. We took him to our company picnic last summer
    and I joked with friends that if they wanted to see us, to hang
    out at the bathrooms because we'll be there most of the day :^)
    When Jake visits the bathroom, he is out again in less than a flash.
    
    I don't think the problem is something like a bladder infection
    because he's exhibited this behaviour as long as we've known him
    (since he was 4). His parents are divorced and both very sensitive 
    to criticism or comments about their only child. So I haven't 
    brought it up to them but surely they must know it's unusual for
    kids to have to go every � hour or so. Our kids are at their house
    all the time and probably never have to use the bathroom.
    
    Could this be a nervous habit?  I know my daughter did something
    similar when she was about four because she found that going to the
    bathroom when she was in some stressful or new situation, meant she
    could, at least temporarily, avoid that situation.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Jodi-

    Some people "go" more often than others.
    
    I remember a college discussion where frequency of
    defecation came up as a topic.  Some people went
    several times a day, others only once or twice a
    week.   I assume urination is the same way, only
    with a higher frequency range.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Well, it could be nervous behaviour ... it could be learned behaviour
    or it could be an illness like diabetes (diabetics, especially when
    uncontrolled, visit frequently).  Some kids have become so terrified
    of having accidents that they end up going frequently to avoid the
    punishment and / or humiliation of an accident.
    
    There are any number of possibilities and any of the above thoughts are
    shots in the dark.
    
    Stuart

>	Conversely, whenever we went out anywhere (stores, restaurants),
>	I *always* had to use the bathroom.  My parents thought it was
>	a game, and that I just liked to check out the bathrooms.  Unfortunately
>	for me, I really did have to use the bathrooms frequently, but
>	no one ever seemed to believe me (my sisters never seemed to need
>	to go as often, so the assumption was that I didn't either).

	Karen,

	How funny!  I went through the same thing!  My family thought
	I just had to check out the bathroom too....

	Lynne

    I believe, with Heather, not pooping on the toilet is some sort of
    control issue....  She has pooped on the toilet only twice in her whole
    life (interestingly enough it was while I was home for a vacation). 
    She would perfer to be left in pullups, as it is 'easier' then having
    to bother with even peeing in the toilet.  She doesn't care if she is
    messes in her pants.  The other kids do make comments... and that seems
    to bother her but not enough to go on the toilet.  She holds it in for
    days at a time.....  
    
    Lynn, I will be in touch soon for the doctor's name.  I have been out
    straight lately.  My gut feeling is that there is more to all of this
    for Heather then meets the eye.
    
    
    susan 

    I'm so glad someone else's kid is having this problem of peeing
    when they're involved in play! James has been doing it frequently
    lately -- this is a kid who was trained in a week -- and my sitter
    and I are at our wits' end. I think she's afraid it's a big
    psychological thing, but I'm not completely convinced that it's a
    stress reaction, since James seems quite happy.  I've extracted all the
    suggestions into a file, and I'm going to print them out and share them
    with the sitter and hopefully we can work something out.
    
    James, like Breanne, is also great for "I don't have to go."  Then, of
    course, 5 minutes later, he can't hold it. We've been asking him to
    "listen to your body" and "don't wait till the last minute," but I'm
    not sure he understands what this means.
    
    I hope this gets straightened out before kindergarten starts in
    September....
    
    BTW, staying indoors would not necessarily be a punishment for this
    kid. 
    
    I really appreciate all the suggestions and I hope we parents of "water
    babies" will soon have success turning them into "desert rats."

>    We've been asking him to
>    "listen to your body" and "don't wait till the last minute," but I'm
>    not sure he understands what this means.

This is a side comment, but metaphors don't work well with children, who tend 
to be literal.  
   
>    I hope this gets straightened out before kindergarten starts in
>    September....

I used to hate it when people said "don't worry" especially since Gary (#2) 
was 2 years older than Lara (#1) when he finally became potty trained.  So 
instead of that I'll suggest that in kindergarten, there is a lot more 
"quiet" time, that is time in which they are relatively calm, with less 
distractions, so that he is more likely to "hear" his body say it's time for 
a bio break.

And regarding the child who can't go for more than a half hour without 
needing to use the bathroom, I'm about to make the trip down the hall for 
about the third time this morning.  In addition to the factors already 
mentioned, some people just have smaller bladders, their diet may include 
diuretics (for example I believe that coffee is one for me) and the child's 
sphincter muscle may not be as "strong" so that he constantly has the feeling 
that it's about to "give way".

Clay

    Ilona, age 2 1/2, insists "I don't HAVE to."  This when I know very
    well she does, like first thing in the morning.  
    
    I am looking for some tips on smoothing this process.  I can't force
    her without physically restraining her - a repulsive concept.  I tried
    bribery this morning.  No breakfast until you try.  She seemed content
    to hang out in her pjs, not eat, not get dressed.  I finally just got
    her dressed, put on a pull-up (she wears them at school anyway for her
    irritable bowel syndrome), and after one more attempt at persuasion,
    gave her breakfast.
    
    When I took her to school, I asked if she had gone in her pull-up.  She
    said no.  As I left, the teacher had her go to the bathroom.
    
    She has a good holding ability.  I don't want her to become reliant on
    the pull-ups, though.  I also want her to try when I tell her to.  So
    far, the only time she goes routinely is before her evening bath.
    
    What to do with a stubborn 2 year old?
    
    Laura

    Laura,
    
    Why do you insist that Ilona must go to the potty right after
    she gets up?  I also have a 2.5 yr old.  I always remind her,
    the minute she woke up in the morning, to go to potty.  But she 
    doesn't always listen to me and, to my surprise, she doesn't have 
    accidents either.  Monica is very good of telling me when she
    needs to go.  And I also let her know that I trust her judgement.
    Maybe if you are not so pushy, you will get less resistance from
    Ilona.  Still remind her in the morning and if she doesn't want
    to go, then don't push her.  Just say, "OK, Let me know when you
    need to go".  If she did come to you later, give her lots of
    praises.  This works for me.
    
    Wendy
     

    Jodi,
    
    I would agree that every 1/2 hour is too often.  I would eliminate the
    possibility of diabetes, because while the frequency is probably
    similar, the "duration" is not.  A diabetic not under good control,
    will pee frequently, and A LOT.  Also, being an unknown diabetic for 4
    years I would find almost impossible to believe in a child.
    
    I wouldn't however rule out the possibility of a chronic urinary tract
    infection.  A man I know had a simple UTI, but never finished all the
    medication.  It wasn't at all painful, and aside from having to pee
    frequently, really didn't bother him much at all.  He let it go on and
    on, till he finally got tired of having to pee all the time.  Then he
    decided to go back to the Dr.  At that point, he had a chronic UTI. 
    While a acute(?) infection is easy to cure, the chronic is not.  It
    took him close to a year and some very vigorous antibiotic therapy
    before everything was back to "functioning normally" again.  It's
    possible that with the stress of their own lives, his parent's may have
    missed this a long time ago, and are now used to it.
    
    And of course the other possibility is the "small bladder" syndrome. 
    In theory, an easier cure for this is to just keep trying and trying to
    hold it.  It's supposed to only take a few days before you can stretch
    your bladder to allow you to wait longer between having to go.
    
    Perhaps you can relay a story to them about a kid you know/knew that
    had a similar problem and possible solutions.  You can say it in such a
    way as to only provide information, and not appear to be "bossy" or
    interfering with their child.  Either way, I'd at least be sure to
    eliminate a medical problem before going much further.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    
    Breanne seems to be doing a little bit better.  Friday she came in
    the house went to bedroom and started to go back outside.  I said
    What are you doing?  She said Oh, I just came in to umm see you.  
    I knew that she must have went in to change her underwear so I asked
    her if she had an accident and she said that she did.  So I told her
    to get her wet underwear and rinse them out in the sink then put them
    in the dirty laundry.  She looked at me like I'ld lost my mind and
    said "I'm just a little kid, your the mother" but she did it and didn't
    wet again til Monday.  She's also been much better about coming in to
    go when I ask her to.  Yesterday I called her to come in and she came
    running saying "do I have to go to the bathroom?"  
    
    Hopefully this will continue to get better.
    
    Thanks for all your suggestions.
    
    Kirsten
    

    Laura, I have one the same age and I've found modeling behavior works
    the best.  Let her do the same morning routine as you (Katina *loves*
    putting on her *makeup*!)  Our potty is facing the toilet so we get
    to have a little chat too.
    
    Also, I read recently that pull-ups, while a brilliant marketing idea,
    are confusing to the child because they feel so much like a diaper.
    
    We used those plastic training pants at first at night.  Of course,
    she doesn't have the irritable bowel thing though...
                              
    Tara

    She was successfully (well, as succesful as they get at 2 1/2 years)
    potty trained in panties.  Then the irritable bowel kicked in.  We have
    to use pull-ups if she's to attend school (actually toddler daycare). 
    The rest of the time we don't use pull-ups unless she's had one
    irritable bowel incident and we expect more.  They are a real mess.
    
    It's a shame, yeah.
    
    Laura

    RE: .29
    
    Patty,
    
    I think now that I have info on other things that may cause
    frequent urination (diabetes, small bladder, etc.), I'll
    speak to his mom. My husband has been in a public restroom
    when Jake made his speedy visit. He (husband) said that Jake
    didn't pee much at all and was zipped up before he even 
    blinked. 
    
    I just know it drives me nuts to take him anywhere because we
    always have to be within dashing distance of a bathroom. We
    love this kid, he's very special to us but it's a hassle to
    accomondate him sometimes.
    
    Jodi-

Going thru toilet training is a tougher experience for the parents than 
the kids.  Though none of you will  believe this, with or without your
urging, cajoling etc, your kids will be toilet trained.  In many cases it
literally happens overnight.  When they are ready, they are ready.  If they
are not ready, nothing you can do will make them ready. 

I've been through it with 2.  We didn't do any of the handsprings you
folks are doing.  With our second, we let her have stickers when she 
"went" properly.  She put them all over the toilet seat and we sacrificed
the toilet seat when she was finished.  Both my kids came to a day when
they stopped having accidents during the day and at night.  But they
did it themselves.  It seemed to occur right around their third
birthdays.

Stop the agony - as my mother always says - no one ever walked down the 
aisle with diapers on!! :*)

    
    re .27
    
    Sophie sounded a lot like your 2 year old... we STARTED the process at
    2 years and 2 months.  We have success (as I define it - Ok all day,
    still wearing pullups at night) at 3 years, 4 months..... a very
    lo-oo-ng time!
    
    
    For her, the key was going to "school", a 1/2 day per week.  within a
    month, she made the transition.
    
    we *still* have the issue of not wanting to. we address it in two
    ways....
    
    1. It's a house rule that we sit on the potty before any trips out of
    the house
    
    2. when she really resists, I agree with her that she doesn't NEED to
    but let's just sit in the potty for two minutes.
    
    
    Jamd

    RE: .34 I don't think this note is about kids who toilet trained by age
    3 and with no problems.
    
    I have a terrific article on Encopresis (poop accidents). I got it 
    from the nurse at the elementary school after my 6 year old had an
    accident in school. I then took him to Dartmouth Hitchcock for
    treatment. If anyone would like a copy, send me mail as I rarely get to
    read this notes file anymore. (DATABS::TAYLOR)
    
    Also, seems to me, back when I had time to read Parenting, I put a lot
    of info on Encopresis in the notes conference. Must be filed away in
    archived notes files by now!
                                                  

    
    I didn't want to start a new note so decided to use this one.
    
    Anna, 3 yrs 5 months, potty trained fairly easily this summer. I
    thought it would be very difficult since I had a baby in March so
    hadn't pushed it, but as people pointed out she basically trained
    within days staying dry both day and night.
    
    Well, now she's regressing. There's no problem with the nighttime for
    the most part, it's during the day. I'll ask her to go pee on the
    toilet and she'll say she doesn't have to (when I know she must need
    to). She says she doesn't like to go pee on the toilet. A little while
    later she'll pee her pants a little (no puddles on the floor or
    anything), I'll notice it, get her on the toilet and she'll finish.
    I proceed to have the talk with her about peeing on the toilet not in
    her pants. She says she likes to pee in her pants. I'm just getting so
    frustrated. We're still having problems with bowel movements and the
    pedi suggested that maybe she's doing the little bit of pee when she
    needs to poop but is holding it back. I kind of agree with this since
    she does tend towards the solid (ie, constipated) end of bowel
    movements and not the loose end. 
    
    I don't know how to go about attacking this problem. Putting her
    kicking and screaming on the toilet when she says she doesn't want to
    go just won't work. I've tried bribery (you can't watch the movie you
    want to watch until you pee), sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    
    So has anyone run into a similar situation?? How did you deal with it
    and get your kid back on track???
    
    Patty

    I have a 3 year old son who is just finishing potty training.  We
    were going through the same scenario lately, never wanting to go when
    I asked and then having an accident within minutes or me forcing him
    into the bathroom, to 'try' with him hollering about how he didn't have
    to go.  It was getting very tiring, to say the least.
    
    A couple of weeks ago, he was hollering and I was exhausted and I
    just sat down and had a little talk that went something like
    'Mommy was so happy when you started using the potty cuz you're such
    a big boy, but now it really makes me unhappy to have you yelling and
    screaming every time I ask you to try to go potty.  Will you make a
    deal with me and at least try to <insert your favorite # 1 word> when
    I ask you?  That would make me sooooo happy and then we could spend
    more time having fun and less time arguing over the potty.'  Next
    time I asked him to please try to go potty, he took the characteristic
    deep breath signalling the upcoming loud rebuttal.  I reminded him
    of our agreement and he smiled and said okay...I couldn't believe it.
    It really, at least thus far, was as simple as that.  
    
    Now, if anyone has a solution of how to get him to actually hit the
    toilet...
    

    
    I have had the "when you pee on the toilet it makes mommy so happy, but
    when you pee in your pants it makes me sad" talk. My daughter informed
    me that peeing in her pants makes her happy. ARGGGGHGHHGH!!!! I've
    thought of leaving her in her wet pants and restricting her to where
    she can be, i.e., I don't want her on the rug or furniture or her bed
    with wet pants. I don't know how well this will work since when she
    does wet she sometimes doesn't even do anything about it until I
    notice. I'll try the talk again with your hints about having an
    agreement. Maybe it will work this time.
    
    Patty

    
    I went through that when my daughter was little, forgetting
    about the potty when she was too busy playing. It took her a
    little while to know her limits, like how long she could hold it,
    how fast she could make it to the bathroom, etc. I would make her 
    use the bathroom before we left the house, no exceptions. I would
    also make her use it every 2 hours or so when we were not at home,
    no exceptions. No if's, but's, nothing - I'll wait forever until
    you do it. I did that for about 1 month. When she was home and 
    was too busy to use the bathroom, I didn't really get upset since
    I knew she felt bad about it. She was around 2 1/2.
    
    Now, this happened again when she was 5 or so, too busy and thinking
    she could hold it. By then, I made her rinse out her undies. After
    a couple times of getting grossed out by her own excretion, she never
    did it again.
    
    
    Eva

    
    	What worked with us is routine.
    
    	Allison must go to the bathroom before we go to daycare.  She must
    go before bed.
    
    	She must go after lunch on the weekends and before we get in
    the car for any trips.
    
    	If I give in just once, I have a week worth of fighting after that.
    It took a week of telling her there was going to be a routine and
    a week worth of fighting but now she'll do it.  She questions everytime
    but it's not a fight.  She'll just ask (that testing thing) if she
    doesn't have to go and I'll just say yes you do and she'll do it.
                                                                 

	Patty,

	I wonder if there's any connection to Lara's age.

	My Andrew is just 9 days younger, and right now, where he's
	doing so many new and exciting things like crawling and 
	babbling and eating, he gets a lot of attention.  Emily (2)
	gets lots of attention, too, and seems to also take great
	pride in Andrew's new accomplishments, but she also has
	decided that the potty is not that great anymore. 

	She was never potty trained, but was occasionally wearing
	training pants and was using the potty 1-3 times a day.  For
	the past 5 or 6 weeks, she's pretty much given it up, with the
	exception of just after her bath.  I ask her if she wants to
	try, and she always says no.  I don't ask twice (again, she's
	about 1 year younger and was not trained).

	Solutions ??   I don't know!  I guess I would just wait it
	out... we will sometimes name all the people that she knows
	that use the potty, including any cousins close in age that
	are trained, figuring she might want to conform, but so far
	she just says, "Yup, so-and-so uses the potty!"

	Karen

    Maybe a variation on what I did when Alex was "in training."  She put
    on big-girl pants in the morning and was allowed 3 accidents per day;
    on the 3rd accident she went into diapers for the rest of the day.  No
    exceptions.  In a regression situation I'd probably go right to diapers
    at the first accident ("You *like* to go in your big-girl pants?  *I*
    like *dry* big-girl pants.  The rule is, diapers if you won't use the
    potty.").
    
    Leslie

    
    My daughter, Haley, who just turned two last Friday was doing really
    good on the potty.  She even went a few days without any accidents.
    Now, she seems to have lost interest in it and is having accidents
    quite frequently.  
    
    I was trying to figure out why and I think it might be because I don't
    make as big a deal about her going on the potty as I did when she was
    first learning.  Once she started doing it all the time I wasn't
    applauding as much or giving her stickers or candy all the time. 
    
    So, I'm going to start clapping and jumping up and down again everytime
    she goes and see if that works.  
    
    Kirsten
    

	Solution found.

	Announce publicly that your child no longer uses the potty.
	They'll change just to show you who's boss.

	Karen, who's daughter announced she had to use the potty
	as soon as she got home last night - first time in months!

    Well Chelsea is another 2-1/2 year old that had a few successful trips
    and now is not interested at all in the potty.  We have pretty much
    backed off for a bit, since every time I bring it up she shouts "NO" at
    me.  I'm thinking of going the sticker/wall chart method, because I
    know the few times she was willing all the applause and attention
    surely made a difference.  Most of the time it seems like she is either
    to busy or just doesn't want to bother with it.  I'm sure like
    everything else, this to will be another milestone when the time is
    right.
    
    ...Lori

    Lucky you Karen!
    
    My public announcement had no effect Chelsea!
    
    I asked her last night if she wanted to use the potty and she replied
    "NO".
    
    I asked her if wanted to wear big girl underwear like Jessica (her 
    favorite daycare pal), her reply was "No".
    
    I asked her if she liked sitting in a diaper full of pee and poop,
    she replied "NO".
    
    If you haven't figured this out yet, Chelsea is in one of those phases
    that "NO" is the answer to everything.  I guess I will have to figure
    out some trick questions, to atleast get the verbal response that would
    be nice to hear!
    
    She is in Huggies 4 right now, so we still have the 5 look forward to.
    
    After the 5's if she is not potty trained, Glenn and I decided we would
    just move up to Depends for her.
    
    ...Lori

    Good luck, Lori, on getting the appropriate answer from Chelsea. When
    Brad is in one of his 'no' moods, I can tell real fast.  Once he starts
    answering 'no' to everything, I ask if his name is Brad, and he usually
    tells me 'no.'  At least at that point, I know what I'm dealing with.
    ;)

	tangent on the "no" reply to everything...

	When we ask Emily about her day at daycare, she usually
	answers "Yes" to all the yes or no questions "did you play
	on the slide?" "Did you sing a song?" ... so my husband
	asks her questions like "Did President Clinton come over
	for lunch?"  ... and she replies, "yes" ;-)

	

    RE: From Huggies 5 to Depends...
    
    I had a really good laugh over this since this morning I observed that
    Neel (2 yrs 4 mos) is getting big for Huggies 5. I was wondering what I
    was going to do if he did not get potty trained soon.
    
    Neel is also into the "NO" for all questions pertaining to the potty.
    We have his potty sitting in the hallway :-) just outside our
    downstairs bathroom. He notices Avanti going to the bathroom and
    follows her. SO he is curious. He refuses to sit on the potty. These
    days we ask Avanti to sit on his potty and pretend to do peepee or
    poopoo (isn't Mom's vocabulary great :-)) and we clap our hands and say
    "yeah yeah...". So then he sits on the potty with diaper and all and we
    clap and yell. He likes the applause but has not gone beyond making it
    a game. 
    
    Avanti was not potty trained until she was 3.5. One day she decided she
    was getting out of diapers and she did never to even have an accident.
    So he might just be like her.
    
    Shaila

    Shaila,
    
    Since you brought up the subject of big potty vs. little potty, I 
    thought I would add our experience.
    
    We have the little Fisher Price potty and it's been decorating our
    bathroom since Chelsea was about 15 months.  We went thru alot of
    the sit down, applause, yell in glee sessions.  From there we went
    into the long dry spell of refusing to even acknowledge that the
    potty existed.
    
    The first time Chelsea showed an interest again was July 11 (I will
    remember and treasure the memory always....it was her first time!).
    I asked her if she wanted to sit on her potty and she said "No, Mommy's
    potty".  So we put the insert on the toilet and put her up on it.  Now
    I did use a little assistance from the dribble of the bathtub spout,
    but she did pee and we all were so proud.  
    
    I'm just wondering if you offer Neel the chance to sit on the big potty
    with the insert if maybe he would be more interested (you might have
    already tried this...since it seems we parents try everything when
    it comes to potty training!)
    
    We also didn't use the step stool, we just would lift Chelsea up on
    the big potty.  When I added the attraction of letting her climb up,
    her interest peaked again....and later left again!
    
    I also want to comment that I purchased both Potty Video's that are
    out.  I think one is called "Potty Time For Her or Potty Time For
    Him"; and "Once Upon a Potty".  Just my opinion, but I think someone
    could make the big bucks if they produced a really good potty video.
    
    The first one seems to deal more with babies, which somewhat held
    Chelsea's interest.  It also has a cartoon character, which seemed
    to be amusing to her, but not like the kids at daycare.  The second
    one ties in potty training with a birthday party, not sure what the
    real correlation is here, but the kids seem a little to old.  I'm
    still glad I purchased them, cuz I do believe that Chelsea enjoys
    them and is getting something out of watching the videos.  Just as
    a parent it seemed like a lot more added value around potty training
    could have been portrayed in these videos.
    
    Oh well, starting to ramble.....

    Also on the subject of big vs. little pottys, we have had the Gerry potty
    in our bathroom since Sarah was 18 mos, she's only used it a few times. 
    She greatly prefers to use the "big potty", in fact, the only times she
    has used the little one is when mom has to go potty, too, and we make
    it a "family affair".
    
    In the beginning we just lifted her up onto the seat and she did great
    balancing herself and getting off and now she can climb on all by
    herself.  At her daycare they use only the big potty since for them it
    is easier and they feel it's easier for the kids.  Sarah is doing very
    well using the potty at daycare, I believe it's because she sees all
    the other kids going and it's a big incentive.  At home she's kind of
    lax which I think is due to her not wanting to miss any of mom or dad
    and she'll forget or tune me out when I ask.  However, the bandaid
    reward is starting to work well (she's in the mommy I have a boo boo, I
    need a bandaid phase).
    
    Susan
    
    

    
    I forgot about this .... we actually had the potty chair in the living
    room (where he could see TV) for a little while.  Kinda gross, I know,
    but we were kind of desperate.  I don't remember that it worked Well,
    but it worked a little.
    
    As stated, sometimes we'll try anything! (-:
    
    

    RE: -2, -3
    
    We tried the big potty offer. Neel will rest his behind on the potty
    and quickly jump off. We do however applause and yell. He has not been
    brave enough to sit on it long enough to experience what sitting on the
    potty is like.
    
    Shaila