Conference moira::parenting

In my opinion, the main problem today is that people are having children and
then *not taking care of them*.  For some, there is actual physical neglect
(little food, or the wrong food, not cleaning them, physical abuse, and so on).  
But what I've seen in my neighborhood (a "good" neighborhood) is that the 
children are "cared for" (they're clean and fed), but the parents aren't teaching 
them or watching them.  The kids are allowed to run wild and do as they wish.
The parents stay inside, doing who knows what.  They don't even check on the
children.

Until parents start caring for their kids- showing interest in what they do,
interest in their schoolwork, interest in what kind of people their children
are becoming, there's little hope.

Case in point:

In the _Herald_, an 8-year-old girl was accused of trying to hold a man up at 
knifepoint.  The knife was her father's, and she took it out of his pocket
while he was sleeping.  The mother (at work) says she thinks the girl was
just "showing the knife" to the man.  The girl says she held the knife (a
switchblade) out at the man *point first*, but didn't intend on hurting him.
The man says this girl and her friend have been robbing the apartment building.

Now, I don't know about you, but if someone held a switchblade out at me point
first, I'd take that as a threat.  And what's the father doing with a switchblade,
much less leaving it where she could get it?  And why is her mother burying her
head in the sand?

Because the parents don't care.


But for those of us who *do* care, it's a very scary time.  Not only do we have
to teach our children morals and social graces, we have to warn them about 
drugs, child molesters...and their classmates.


 

    One thing that people need to understand is that just because you are
    angry does not mean that you have the right to make someone else "pay".
    I really hate it when kids show violent tempers/behaviour and parents
    do not try to curb that "energy".  Just because we are angry at
    someone/something does not mean there will be restitution to me for my
    feelings.  People in this world have to learn to cut some slack.  I am
    not saying you can't have your feelings - it's what you do with them
    that must be channeled.  Your feelings are NOT wrong.  What you do
    about them can be wrong.
    
    I had a wicked temper when I was a kid.  I have noticed that my kids
    are very good about not beating on each other when they are angry like
    I used to do.  We as parents need to help our kids find a way to deal
    with their feelings but not at the expense of someone else.
    
    -sandy
    

    I think we can give a lot of simplistic answers to this
    question but most would be avoiding the real issue.  For me
    the questions is 'what has changed in the last 30 years
    that is the root of all the breakdown in our society'.
    I dont know the answer to this...but its not just that parents
    are not taking care of their kids.  (that may be true, but
    why aren't they?)

    I put a lot of blame on the incredible mastery of 'madison avenue'
    on 'advertising'.  I think that the advertisers (or whoever) have
    really learned to manipulate us, and we live in a society where
    people are being encouraged to spend thier (limited) money in
    ways that are very counter to their best interest.

    I see examples of this everyday...from the government seducing
    people into buying lottery tickets to McDonalds convincing us
    'you DESERVE a break today' to our growing habit of just stopping
    by the local video store for something to watch tonight (plus
    considering Cable TV a basic staple of life, at $25 a month?).
    Our money flows out of our pockets through holes that never existed
    30 years ago.

    So Society (all of us) have very little money left over for the
    real necessities of life....raising our children, giving to the needy,
    investing in a future.

    I wish we all learned in school how to keep from being seduced by
    all these incredibly powerful messages.  But they've got us.

    That's what I think is the difference from when we were kids.
    bob

    
    
    I agree that there seem to be a lot of parents that don't really take
    care of their kids properly.  I find it quite strange to be out after
    dark and see 5 and 6 year old kids (and sometimes younger) out playing
    *well* out of parent's earshot and eyesight.  I see it in my
    neighborhood all the time...I also see parents who don't let their kids
    out of their sight; I know there are many caring parents out there.
    
    Personally, I don't think the "boob-tube" has done a lot for our
    society.  Sure, there are a lot of good kids programs on, probably more
    so now than when I was growing up and the only kids programs were on
    PBS.  It appears to me that a small minority of TV people are
    recognizing the fact that kids watch far too much TV and they need
    something positive to watch.
    
    I'll be the first to admit that I am quite the TV addict.  I grew up
    with it.  The television was used frequently as a babysitter in my
    home, or maybe just not regulated enough (I really don't remember.) 
    And although the only TV I *remember* watching as a kid was Sesame
    Street, Mister Rogers, Speed Racer, and Kimba (anybody remember Kimba?
    8^)) I know I was watching all the prime-time sitcoms.  So as I grew
    up, I became more and more *dependent* on the television.  To this day
    I find it hard to walk into the house and *not* turn the TV on...its
    completely habitual.  I think when we have kids, I'm pitching the TV!
    
    Anyway, even if *your* kids aren't watching prime-time television or
    cable shows they shouldn't be seeing, doesn't mean somebody else's kids
    aren't.  Some of the stuff on TV these days shocks the devil out of
    *me*...I think a lot of kids today are just so desensitized to this
    stuff (violence, sex) that when it starts happening in real life, it
    seems normal.  That I find scary.
    
    That's not to say there aren't an awful lot of other factors
    contributing to some of the awful violence in society today, but TV
    certainly hasn't helped.  I still cringe when I remember the days when
    my husband's nephew would play Double Dragon on Nintendo (now there's a
    really educational game!) for 3 or 4 hours at a time!!!
    
    Just rambling,
    Terri

    I agree that the television and movie industries bombard us and our
    kids with too much violence.  But, what makes it even worse, at least
    to me, is that it's not even realistically portrayed.  How many times
    have you seen the "good" guys get shot or have their car flip and
    explode but nothing happens to them, even the "bad" guys survive!  Kids
    see this and they don't realize what the true consequences are.  They
    don't see that in real life if people are shot or knifed or crash their
    cars that they can DIE or become paralyzed.  
    
    My daughter is only 1 year old and I try to limit her tv exposure as
    much as possible.  We watch PBS and her Disney videos but mostly we
    listen to music (she likes Mozart, Pink Floyd and Aerosmith 8^) )
    
    Susan

    
    I had an interesting conversation with my aunt about this over the
    weekend.  She's the special education coordinator in the Uxbridge
    Public School system.  She was getting really frustrated with some of
    her 3 year old students bringing in toy guns and "killing" each other 5
    times a day.  So she recently attended a seminar (the title of which I
    can't for the life of me remember) having to do with kids and violence,
    etc.
    
    She said the woman giving the seminar made a very interesting point. 
    Linda (my aunt) had her first child in 1982 and left teaching for 8 or
    so years.  Prior to her having Katie, she can't ever remember the kids
    being so blatantly "violent," or at least, so much into all this
    bang-bang shoot 'em up stuff.  The point being that in 1980 when Regan
    came into office, television was highly regulated protecting children,
    i.e. what could they show on primetime, there could be no toys modeled
    after TV/movie things...then everything was de-regulated.  I guess the
    woman giving the seminar held up 2 of the more popular toys at the
    time; they were an "Ariel" doll, and a "Terminator" doll, whose stomach
    would explode when you raised his arm (nice stuff...)  
    
    Anyway, *I* don't have all the hard facts about this stuff, but I
    thought the point was mighty interesting.
    
    Terri

    I believe as some of you do.  I think that the parents in our country
    and world need to start being with their children.  Like it was when I
    was a child.  What ever happened to taking your kids to the park or for
    a nice walk.  I know that there alot of us out here, but there need to
    be more of us.
    
    Our family (husband, self and two boys ages 6 and almost 3) moved to a
    new neighborhood in December.  Well since the weather has finally
    broken and we can spend much more time outside that exactly what we
    have been doing.  We bought a house that is 25 years old and needs alot
    of work outside.  We have tried to teach the boys that this is their
    house too and that they need to learn to help.  And they are.  
    
    Well, since being outside we have begun to finally meet some of our
    neighbors and their children.  Mostly the children.  But I still can't
    believe that some of these parents let their small children rome the
    streets and they are nowhere to be found. 
    
    Only two of our neighbors have have been kind enough to come and
    introduce themselves.  We actually had the neighbor behind us put a
    nasty note on our wood pile asking us to move it away from HER fence. 
    She wouldn't even come do it face to face.  I guess this is why some
    children in the world turn out the way they do.
    
    Well, sorry for rambling, but as others have stated, we need to take
    control of our childrens lives and go back to teaching them good old
    fashion values and respect of others.  I know if my boys didn't say 
    "Yes Sir" and "No Sir" etc. I would probably hurt them.  (Only
    kidding)!!  My two really are very polite and say please and thank you
    and also, "May I be excused from the table".  
    
    Just one more thing.  There is an elderly woman who lives across the
    street and when it snowed this winter and then froze on top of it, I
    went across and carried her paper up to her front door.  She came out
    and thanked me.  I said it wasn't a problem.  She then said, "You must
    thank your parents for me!"  I looked at her funny and she said, "It
    takes great parents to produce a child that would look after an old
    woman like me who  you don't even know."  She went on to say that I
    didn't even know her name, but I was still nice to her.   That's how I
    want people to know my children.
    
    Thanks for listening.  I'm sorry that I got on my soap box.  It's
    really easy on this subject.
    
    Lillian

    
    
    	Boy oh boy, what a topic!
    
    	I think that if kids today were brought up to do just TWO things,
    everything would be better:  Respect others and their belongings, and
    take responsibilities for your actions.  But so many parents I see
    don't do these two things, how can we expect kids to?
    
    	I see a society where people are overly concerned about THEIR
    rights, and they forget that others have rights too.  "It's MY house,
    I'll play the stereo as loud as I want", instead of "Gee, it's late,
    maybe the neighbors are sleeping, I'll keep this low."  I was brought
    up to consider others first, myself second in most circumstances.  My
    parents taught me that no one is better than I am - nor am I better
    than anyone else.  Maybe as parents, we have to start acting this way,
    and the kids will follow. 
    
    	Justine
               

    A few things have happened to me lately (conversations with
    different people, etc) that make me want to stay home with
    my child. It seems I just got over this when I came back
    to work 4 months ago, and here I am again, with a wave of
    "we can make ends meet!" going around in my head. Now, with
    this topic, these ideas are being further reinforced.....
    
    Monica (weighing and measuring...)

    
    
    	I'm with you, Monica.  I weigh and measure, several times a day. 
    Wish it were an easy choice!  
    
    	Justine

A couple of comments. As a school committee member I hear of incidents within 
both my schools and others. The theme of respect and responsibility are right
on. Parents who back their own children blindly do not do anyone any good.
Because of problems with liability and litigation teachers and administrators
are reluctant to take on obnoxious children. They simply grin and bear it. 
I know of one incident in which a 15 year old male student told a female teacher
in full view of other students to "$%^& off". When the student was suspended the
parents appealed on the grounds that the child was simply exercising his right of
free speech (parents lost but the fact they appealed shows a certain amount of
gall). 

While it certainly helps to have a parent at home for the kids that alone will
not solve the problem. Too many of our children are seeing the "me" generation
come to full course and the breakdown of the generational compact. If parents
do not show that they care for and respect others as well as take responsibility
for their actions then society will ultimately implode.

    I find it interesting to read all these replies, especially about
    "nice" kids, and "obnoxious" kids, and I wonder how well we really know
    our own children.  I know that with mine in school, all they seem to
    run across are REALLY obnoxious bullies.  We made the mistake of trying
    to teach the boys to be nice, and what goes around, comes around, and
    sooner or later other kids would be nice back.  We've found a very
    small handful of kids that aren't mean.  Where are all your kids??  Are
    they interested in playing with an 8 and 5 year old around Nashua or
    around Manchester??  Maybe if we can get the nice ones to stick
    together and SEE that it does pay, they won't turn rotten too!  I know
    that my kids have figured out that they have to be a lot meaner than
    they'd like, just to survive.  Christopher's teacher almost dropped
    dead away when I brought in his lunch one day, and he said Thank You to
    me.  She can't get over how Polite he is.  I can't get over how RUDE
    others are.  It's pretty bad when we're shocked by manners ....
    
    How do you keep the gentle ones, gentle?

    >>> How do you keep the gentle ones, gentle?
    
    Where's Gandhi when you need him? 
    
    Maybe we should add to the Public Services Messages by saying
    Pay Attention to Your Children. Society won't.
    
    gosh this gives me pain.......
    Monica

    >>> How do you keep the gentle ones, gentle?
    
    That's a good questions!   Out son is extremely polite - to
    everyone - he says please and thank you - and he's very
    giving and caring.   I think this is wonderful - but on the
    other hand, since he is such a kind little person, I'm afraid
    other's will step all over him!   How can I teach him to stand
    up for himself, and yet still be the wonderful little boy he
    is.  Allready I'll see other children taking toys away from him
    and he let's them - I don't know how to handle this because
    I've taught him that it's not nice to do that, and yet he sees
    other children doing it to him, and you can just see that he
    doesn't understand.  This whole topic is one that really worries me.  
    I believe children learn from example - if you are polite and caring to
    others, your children will pick up on this and do the same. 
    But so many children are downright RUDE to people - children
    AND adults!  I really believe they learn this behavior from
    their parents (or whatever environment they're being raised in) -
    and of course, I blame alot on T.V.
    
    We've often discussed the possibilities of moving back to rural
    America where we were raised - thinking, perhaps, it's better there -
    but I think the problems of society are everywhere - even in the
    small towns - it's just not as obvious there as in the cities.
    
    I don;t really have any solutions, but had to respond to the
    "how do we keep them gentle" - I sincerely hope society does not
    change my  child from the caring person he is - but I'm really
    afraid it might!    
    
    Sorry to have rambled  and gotten off the topic of this note 
    somewhat!   Thanks for listening.  
    
    Lila
     

    My children have been raised to be polite, to shake hands when they
    meet people, to say goodby to everyone (again a handshake), etc. in the
    European fashion.  This is not to say that they are angels :-)  In fact
    Markus can be quite fresh but he quickly learns that this is not
    acceptable behavior.  Dirk runs around with a particularly nice set of
    teenagers.  Usually, when they arrive at the house, they will all
    come to me and say "Good afternoon, Mrs. Bettels", etc.  I consider
    myself extremely to live in an area when this is the norm.  One boy of
    Dirk's age was expelled from school for three days for picking on a
    younger child on the bus (I think he hit him).
    
    Last summer we went to the US.  It may just be the "Europeaness" of my
    two but most of my brothers and sisters and especially my parents
    remarked on how polite my two are.  Markus has a girl cousin the same
    age who has much the same character.  Both are stubborn and think they
    know it all.  But Markus would never use the kind of language to adults
    that my niece does.
    
    We went whitewater rafting.  We were with another family with two boys
    slightly younger than Dirk.  As we were introducing ourselves, nobody
    could pronounce Dirk's name.  The other boys, one of whom was a real
    BRAT, started making fun of Dirk and his name and the fact that the two
    boys had an accent.  Dirk took it very well but it really made me
    wonder.  This kid took the front seat in the raft and expected to have
    it the whole time.  Even his parents couldn't get him to give it up. 
    Finally the boat guide made him let someone else have a chance at the
    front.
    
    Concerning weapons and weapon "toys".  I know I can't eliminate this
    from Mark's life (Dirk has no interest), but I can control it.  We have
    a lot of water pistols and cannons that we use around the pool and that
    Mark uses to play with his younger friends.  The rule is, no projectile
    stronger than water (plain) and no shooting anyone who doesn't want to
    be shot.  As a former archery teacher, I also taught him to shoot with
    a bow and arrow.  This again is in a controlled situation, a safe
    environment in the woods, shooting only at targets.  He is fascinated
    with guns and, at 12 he can now enroll in the local shooting club (the
    Swiss are very big on this).  I have made it clear to him that neither
    I nor his father like guns, we will not have one in the house *EVER*
    but he may takes lessons and learn safety, care and everything else
    from an approved society.
    
    I hope this way to satisfy his "needs" while still teaching him
    responsibility and safety.
    
    Sorry, this got a bit long.  I think it's important too.
    
    Cheryl

    
    One small note.....  I am extremely uncomfortable with what feels like
    to me 'finger pointing' at the 'less then caring parents' rational.  I
    believe most parents do care.  Some, (perhaps the parents of the 8 year
    girl in Boston), are simply so exhausted or overwhelmed by there life
    that they don't deal with thier children as effectively as they should.
    I believe local enviorment has as much to do with how a child grows up
    as the parents.  I believe good kids do stupid things and make stupid
    mistakes.........  I believe, right or wrong, violence is very much a
    part of at least teenage life these days.  
    
    I also believe that one way to try to change things is to become
    involved with your children, the friends of your children and children
    in the community as much as possible.  I have 5 children, 2 of whom are
    teenagers, 16 and 17 respectively.  Both of my oldest children have
    been in trouble with the law.  The younger one much more seriously then
    the older one......  
    
    I believe all my children are good kids.....  I believe my older ones
    'acted out' because of the turmiol we all went through having a
    extremely sick infant in the house and my susequent break down.  Even
    understanding why my children got into trouble didn't change the fact
    that they made the choice to break the law.  
    
    With the 16 year old, it was an extremely serious offense.  The hardest
    thing I have ever had to do was to do nothing but stand by him, 
    knowing that he might be sent away to juvenial hall.    
    
    (He was caught stealing radar
    detectors from cars).  To his credit, he plead guilty, (The police had
    forgotten to read him his rights and searched him illegally)he could
    have gotten off because of the police officers error.  I felt so
    strongly that my son had made the greater error.... He got a very
    strict probation, with 100 hours of community services and he must make
    restitution once he begins working.  
    
    I would like to believe that he has learned his leason.....  I would
    also like to believe he never stole.  Unfortunately he did. 
    Ultimately, though, I hold my son completely responcible for his
    behavior.   (This is the same kid who 3 months prior to the stealing 
    incident found a wallet on the side of the road, with credit cards and
    cash and called the owner to report he had found it.)     
    
    Now, more then ever, I stay tuned into each of my children, thier
    friends and the neighbors children.  I try to make even a small
    positive impact on the lives when ever possible.  I try to reinforce
    the cause and effect of all behaviour good and bad.  I have opened my
    door (and my refrigerator and my home) to the teenagers friends.  I try
    to engage the older children in adult conversations.  I try to listen
    more.....  I hope and pray that they will turn into happy, healthy and
    successful adults.  I believe children have to make mistakes and then
    suffer the consequences of thier actions. 
    
    I believe, US society, makes it too easy for people to make mistakes and not
    suffer the consequences of thier actions......     
    
    Talk about rambling.....  
    
    
    susan        
    
    

    I think the "finger pointing" you may be flinching at, Susan, is
    not so much directed at the "parent of the 'bad' child" but at 
    we as adults; the parents of the next generation of society. I think
    of everyone here, you've added possibly the most constructive note,
    since you've had to deal with this problem first hand and have 
    worked towards bettering the younger generation because of it
    (good for you!)
    
    Cheryl, its my perception as a Canadian (with both European and
    American relatives) that in general people are taught more politeness
    in Europe - there is a bigger emphasis on form there. Having been
    raised in a European style household, I too, am a little surprised
    at some of the relaxed attitudes I found in some American households.
    But before I am made to swallow that comment 8-) I must add that
    politeness is only one element of a good and moral society. Germans
    may shake your hand and call you Frau or Herr, but they still
    have as may social problems, racism (REAL scary stuff!) as well 
    as violence. 
    I remember my mother teaching me the importance of a good firm 
    handshake and how little my parents thought of someone who had 
    a handshake like a "wet facecloth".....8-). Now, I find my handshaking
    skill is a little out of place here, and I feel self-concious about 
    using it. Maybe I should start again!
    
    Monica

    
    
    	Someone had asked, "How do we prevent our *nice* kids from being
    stepped on?"  
    
    	I can't answer for the older kids - my daughter's only a year. But she
    says "Thank you" (or a form of it I can recognize!) whenever she's
    given anything, and she doesn't mind sharing (she and her cousin play
    together all day.)  BUT, when we're in a place where there are a lot of
    kids, and someone starts being rude (in a one-year-old form), I don't
    hesitate to tell the OTHER child to share, or not to hit, or not to
    bite, or whatever, just like I tell it to my own.  Guess what?  It 
    usually wakes the other parent up to the fact that his/her child is
    getting out of hand.  If the other parent doesn't like my speaking to
    his/her child, then go away.  But I will NOT tolerate anyone else
    harming or being rude to my child - NOR will I tolerate her harming or
    being rude to anyone else.  So, with a little luck, my
    daughter will learn to be nice, but tell others to "Knock it off" when 
    they're invading her space!  Being stepped on too often will only make
    her explode some day.  Hopefully it will all work out.
    
    	I guess time will tell! 
    
    	Justine 
        

Hi,

Being a first time noter in here, let me first introduce myself.  I work in
ZKO as a software engineer, I've been married for 4 years, have a 20� month
old daughter, Adrienne, and my wife Jill and I are expecting baby number 2 
in just 7 weeks.  We live in Nashua, NH.

I hope I don't get flamed for my beliefs in here.  They're not popular, so
it might happen, but I ask that if you don't agree with me, then please just
ignore me.

I believe that this country is in the mess that it is in because (as some
others have said):

1) lack of caring on the parent's part for their children and their children's
   behavior.
2) lack of caring on the children's part for other people's property, rights
   and feelings (this is a result of number 1, where children don't get the
   proper teaching during upbringing).  Also, allowing children to associate
   with "bad apples" will only encourage them to turn from proper things they
   are taught at home.
3) the breakdown of the American family - parents splitting up causes pain to
   children, no matter how peaceful a divorce.
4) American society over the last 30 years.  With TV violence and advertising
   becoming all the more subtle and increasing, we have become a desensitized,
   greedy society.  We have made it so that 2 working parents is the norm and
   not a choice for most people, and a lot of our children are being raised
   by strangers (during the day) instead of by their parents.

I grew up in a home where my dad owned his own business (a machine shop) 
and my mother handled all of the administrative duties.  While my older
brother and I were growing up, she worked at home, but for for my younger 
brother (six years younger), my dad's business expanded and she began to work
at "the shop" once my younger brother was 12 years old.

As soon as my younger brother was left alone, trouble began.  My mother no
longer had "control" over who he was having over after school, what he was
doing, etc.  By the time he was a senior in high school, he had gotten in
trouble with the law twice (thankfully neither was very serious) and he had
become more rebellious than either I or my older brother had ever been.  And
with both my parents working full time now (my mom had been part time with me
and my older brother), they were too wiped out when they got home to care or
enforce any standards.  They began to take an attitude of "live and let live"
and "well, he's old enough to make his own decisions now - we've laid the 
groundwork".  Now, he's a junior in college and he's moving in with his
girlfriend this summer (for the summer and all of next year), something I
was shocked to hear about because 1) my brother had the guts to tell my
parents about it and 2) my parents are letting him do it.  They say they
are not in favor of it, yet they are promoting it, by paying for his college
and living expenses.  A typical scenario these days, I should say.

I've also witnessed many familes destroyed by divorce, and most have been
amongst professional people.  Stats say that things are even worse with
familes where the dad stops paying child support and/or alimony.

What Jill and I have decided to do to counter the above (though unpopular with
many people, including my parents) is the following:

1) Jill does not work anymore.  She is home with my daughter Adrienne because
we feel this is where one of us she should be - raising our children.  If she
had been the one who had more educational background and potential for job 
growth then I would be home with my daughter today.  We do not believe in 
daycare whatsoever.  We brought our children into this world, and we feel it's
up to us to take responsibility for it.  Even if we had to live in a cramped
one bedroom apartment, we would still be doing this. (Thankfully, we do have a
house).

2) We are planning on homeschooling our children.  Between the drop in quality
of education and the factor of "unfavorable" influences upon our children
(kids whose attitudes are getting worse, year by year) we feel we have no
choice.  We *do* plan on involving our kids in plenty of community activities
to make up for the decline in social interaction.  We also will be joining
a homeschool "network" where our kids can get together with other homeschooled
children for social activities.

3) What we teach our children about upright living, respecting other people,
their property, and their rights will be Biblically based.  We feel there is
no better authority for "proper" behavior than what we've read in the Bible.
Even if people don't have Judeo/Christian beliefs or backgrounds, the book of
Proverbs alone is a wonderful source for proper living, and as Proverbs 22:6 
says: "Train a child in the way that he should go and when he is old, he will
not turn from it."

4) My wife and I really do feel that marriage is until "death do us part."  
We have our spats from time to time, but we feel the commitment we made to one 
another is stronger than any feelings we may be having at any present moment.
And if we do start having problems, we will seek out counselling rather than
throwing in the towel.

5) To further control "outside" influences, we have limited our TV intake.
Other than CNN, the Discovery Channel and PBS, we rarely watch TV and we plan
to *severely* limit our children's watching as they grow older.  My goal is 
that my kids will never know who the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" are. 8-)

If every other family in this country (in the world!) would take on similar
values, we're convinced we would see a complete 180 degree turnaround over 
time.  But, since I know that this will never happen (things are just getting
worse) our conviction is that we have to do all *we* can to see to it that our
family gets what is best for them.

FWIW,
-Dan 

    Dan's reply in .19 made me think. I may not share his religious faith,
    but I respect the way he and his wife are putting their plan to work.   
            
    We are doing some similar things from a non-religious basis. We have 
    one parent at home every day but one, and intend to keep it that way 
    as our kids get older. (I feel that they need you *more* as they get 
    older.) We limit TV and videos severely because we dislike a lot of
    the values I see there.
    
    We are active in our children's school life. Our plan is to have our 
    children attend public schools. Our goal is that they continue to 
    live with people different from them and along the way get a good 
    education. One of us intends to be physically present in their schools 
    at least one hour each week as a volunteer. Our intention is that some 
    of the "good" gets spread around beyond the confines of our family this 
    way. It's a small goal but meaningful -- what if each family that could 
    do it did the same thing? It might be a way for "society" to help raise 
    those children whose parents don't seem willing or able to do the job.
    
    My mother is a reading tutor in New Haven, Conn. (a city with problems, 
    to understate it). She sometimes gets frustrated and says she doesn't 
    think she's doing any good, that the deck is stacked for the kids she 
    works with. But she keeps on doing it, which I admire her for.
    
    Lucy

    Before this note goes off into a tangent about the merits of daycare
    vs. stay-at-home parenting and about public schooling vs. home or
    private schooling, a word of moderator caution.
    
    This is not the appropriate forum for debating the merits of these
    parental decisions.  
    
    If you have an opinion about whether daycare or public schooling (or
    other parenting choices including religion) affect violence in society,
    you may state this.  But please respect others' opinions and beliefs. 
    PLEASE do not take this into a tangent on these highly charged
    topics. 
    
    Remember to be kind.
    
    Laura

          Excellent topic!
    
    Random musings...
    
    Why the change?
    
    LAck of personal responsibility.
    Not only our children, but our society lacks this.  Witness the rise on
    lawsuits.  "SOMEONE" is responsible for me... and that someone is not
    me.  It seems to me that in earlier times, it was more up to the
    individual to take responsibility for their actions and the results. 
    
    Another manifestation of this is the higher value of personal
    freedoms than societal responsibility.  How often do we hear via the
    media, that someone is acting based on their freedom of speech.
    Geraldo, Donahue, Koresh - pick your favorite - (No I'm not lumping
    Koresh with Geraldo) have the RIGHT to whatever... in spite of and
    often against larger responsibilities to create a better society.  I've
    been thinking about this aspect a lot lately, becasue I've felt
    somewhat isolated in my community.  After reflection, it seems t ome
    that the lack of community is a root symptom.
    
    When I was growing up, I knew my neighbors, and my town.  I was taught
    that I should "uphold the family name" and that I had a
    *responsibility* to be a part of and contribute to my neighborhood and
    town.   How many of us know all our neighbors?  
    
    Media - and its lack of "moral" responsibility.  "morality" is a
    slippery subject. Freedom of speech is a valid right.  BUT...
    It seems that we chase the concept past the point
    of uselessness.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but how many of us would argue
    that Donahue has redeeming social value?  That the gore and violence
    that is now *typical* adds to the quality of TV programmming? that the
    muck raking emphasis on politics (vs content and voting record) adds
    value and understanding?
    
    It sells.  That's the bottom line.  And (IMNSHO) it's the WRONG bottom
    line.   We watch PBS and videos in our house (OK, Chip & I watch Star
    Trek when we can stay up that late) and at that, it's hard to find even
    children's videos where violence is not the primary method of problem
    solving.   TV is (again, IMNSHO) a primary cause in the escalation of
    violence.  I support freedom of speech. I also support MUCH tighter
    controls on TV programming. 
     
    Lack of heros:   Who was yor hero when you were growing up? remembe
    having to read biographical novels about "great people"  It does not
    seem to me our children have noble heros to idealize and strive to
    imitate.
    
    Environment that devalues the child
    Living standards are higher.  you "gotta have" x, y, and z.  Look back
    at pictures from the 50's of homes... they do look a little more stark
    and less comfy.  I've been struggling with this question.  I *Want*
    stuff, but, is it worth the tradeoff?
    Painting with an admitteldy broad brush, it seems to me that our (US,
    perhaps others) society values the fruits of competition, not the
    fruits of nuturing. Think of it.. how many popular heros are
    gardeners.. or warriors. (what did T2 gross?)
    
     A kinder and gentler nation.  baloney.   Do we prioritize childcare?
    Do we prioritize parental leave?  Do we prioritize infant mortality
    decreases?  Do we prioritize education.. or educational *processes*? Do
    we prioritize leisure time - used to be known as family time, or in the
    interests of 'meeting my personal quarterly/weekly goal set' do we make
    decisions that negate the ability to spend random time with our
    children?
    
    Our responsibility is to the personal goal.. not the neighborhood, the
    community, or the society.    I'm gonna get mine before someone else
    does. 
    
    Sorry for the rambling, preachy nature of this. It's something I'm very
    interested in.
    
      

I feel an obligation to add my $.02 here - although I usually am a RO.....

I have to agree with the statements of teaching (or apparent lack thereof) the
kids today to respect others and others property.....I am having problems at
my own home with the neighborhood kids about respecting MY property, not cutting
across the lawn, riding their bikes right through it, etc......when I had to
tell some of them *again* last week, I actually had kids turn around and tell
me "well, if you don't want us on it, why the $@#%@ don't you just put up a
fence !"as they went screaming away on their bikes......shocked wasn't the word 
for how I felt, but I responded to the child still on the property when he 
mentioned this afterwards that I didn't *want* to put up a fence but if they
don't stay off, I'll be forced to........

this is just one incident and even when adults/parents are around and I ask
the kids to get off, they don't talk to the kids, they don't stop the kids 
from doing it even though they've heard me tell them before !!

For my son, 8 years old and as polite and good and respectful of others as
I can expect of an 8 year old - haven't seen a perfect one yet 8*) - I just
keep reinforcing the old adage of "do unto others" and when he starts doing
something to someone I feel is wrong, ask him how he would like it if it was
done to him.......this usually gets the point across and gets him to keep 
thinking of other people, their opinions, their feelings, their rights in 
addition to his own............

    
    ANd some more ramblinmgs.
    
    What are we (my partner and I) doing to walk the talk....
    
    we both work right now. We have a 3 yr old and a 10 month old.  We re
    also very fortunate that we have a nanny that is very good for
    developing basic manners and self esteem.
    
    When the kids get older they will be faced, I think, with more
    challenges. Challenges I don't feel comfortable letting someone else
    handle.  So, in opposition to the "normal" way of doing things, iour
    plan is for one of us to be home when they *begin* school. Is it
    necessary? For us, yes, but it could also be handled by having us both
    take turns to be available anf PRIORITIZNG that availability. 
    
    We also, as I said before, very strictly control what's on the TV.
    
    We also control and will control as long as we can - or at least
    influence - the choice of who our children associate with. 
    
    .
    .
    .random musings... what's really strange, as I write this, is the
    feeling that we're different (at least n our neighborhood) becasue we
    do this.....
    
    Jamd

	The replies from many of you with young (under 12) children may appear
to be encouraging. I used to feel the same way. Until my own got older. 

	As parents we have to continually reinforce our own basic values in our
children. Over and over and over.... Because when they begin to reach for
those teen years you WILL lose most of the "control". Some one once told me
that we should all simply erase from our memories the myriad of mistakes our
children will make between the age of 10 and 20. I don't think I'll go that far
but I certainly will continue to emphasize my own values and set the best
example I can. 

	However, we cannot isolate or protect our children from exposure to 
the real world that they will someday have to face alone. Isolation can be
as damaging as overexposure especially if a teenager is suddenly faced with a 
situation they have no experience or guidance in. 

	We must also be heavily involved in what goes on within our schools. Our
children spend more time with their teachers and fellow students than they do 
with us. We need to ensure that administrators reflect the diversity and values
that the community holds.

    In reply to Justine a while back "To keep the gentle ones, gentle" ...
    I used to think the same thing when mine were young .. that's the
    problem.  Now that my older one has spent his first year in public
    school, I realize that I CAN'T make sure that the other kids are nice
    to him, no matter what he does, and that his EXPECTING other people to
    be nice/fair back has only caused him problems.
    
    This is a 7-year old, playing in the playground at recess, perhaps a
    little "goofier" than average, but certainly not deserving of another
    kid physically picking on him .... I honestly think, in this case,
    we've done more harm than good to put SO much emphasis on just being
    nice, and trying to explain that "some kids are just mean" or brats,
    doesn't do anything for him to help him get through it all. 
    Fortunately, his brother sees what he's going through, and has learned
    how NOT to leave himself so vulnerable to the bullies, but I never
    dreamed that I should be teaching my kids how to build walls.  I guess
    that's all part of the learning of being a parent.
    

    
    
    	re .26,
    
    	That's why I hope to instill the Be Nice But Don't Be Stepped On,
    Either attitude.  My duaghter is only one, so right now, I have to
    be there for her.  But, eventually, I hope that she can tell someone
    herself if she doesn't like their actions, and be able to walk away.
    (That's what her Mom does!)
    
    	Again, only time will tell.  I've wacthed umpteen neices and nephews
    grow up, and I'm trying to pick and choose from what worked and what
    didn't with my sisters.
    
    	Justine 
    
                           

    Monica in about .18 (WHEW! this is a hot topic)
    
    You caught what I was trying to say but didn't say properly.  That's why
    I used Markus as an example.  European kids are taught to be very
    polite and respectful of elders.  That doesn't make a "nice" child, it
    makes a polite child.  Markus still is stubborn, he steals, he fights
    with his father, he needs a lot of attention and work in raising him. 
    But he is polite.
    
    Rascism is rampant in Europe right now.  Perfectly good upstanding
    citizens support thugs who burn down asylum seekers' houses or destroy
    Jewish cimeteries.  British football thugs go on rampages after games.
    There is certainly as much viloence here as in the US, it is perhaps
    only more contained to specific events or exhibited in a different way.
    
    Our lifestyle is somehow different.  One noter mentioned about kids
    riding bicycles across the lawn and being forced to put up a fence. 
    Everybody here already has one.  American society has always been open
    and friendly and full of contact and now, when the society's values are
    turning a bit ugly, this openess works against it.  Europe has always
    had the barriers in place, fences around property, social fences in a
    rigid politeness, social contact a slow and distant process to develop. 
    It has a shell to shut out the unpleasantness that surrounds it.  I'm
    not saying that I think this is better, it is just different.  The
    violence is still there.
    
    All I can do, is to do the best job I can with my own children.  And
    all of you with the little ones who can at least control whether they
    watch this awful Japanese crap (that was the worst on the French
    televsion when my kids were little), do it while you can.  I am happy
    that I NOW can be at home to talk to them, more so than when they were
    little because I find that the teenage years are the scariest and most
    fun of all.  They are intelligent beings with budding views on the
    world so influenced about all that goes on around them.  Talking to
    them now has been one of the best parts so far.
    
    Cheryl    
                       

    
    	So many aspects of this topic have opened up and I think of 
    something to say about all of them.  I hope I can keep coherent!
    
    I was speaking with another parent and my husband about this last
    night in the park.  We agreed that television is A culprit, but our
    children are young and violent side effects from Barney dinosaur
    haven't been observed yet :^)  
    
    One thing we noted from our admittedly turbulent teenage-hoods was that
    "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". That is,
    as well meaning as our parents were, if they tried to "control" us
    that's when we really rebelled...and got into trouble.  And, I
    can relate to what Cheryl said about "you can be polite, but not
    nice" - that's the way I was when I was a teen (maybe I still am :^))
    
    I feel self respect, confidence and taking active interest in 
    life around you will be what I strive for in my children. I don't
    want to control them. I want them to have the confidence to say
    to their peers "I don't feel like participating in this activity. I
    think it's wrong" .... 
    
    I would like to talk about  BOREDOM, however. How much 
    gang-destructive-violent active is due to Boredom, or perceived
    lack of activity for our "budding adults"?  I mention this because
    I just learned that there are gangs springing up in our suburbia,
    leaving their marks on expensive automobiles, running away from
    home, suicides, teen prostitutes...  Is the boredom
    justified?  Or am I wrong and it's simply thrill seeking that all
    teens go through?  I worry about this because we live in a country
    village, and there's *nothing* except the skating arena for kids out
    here!
    
    Candace
    
                                      

    re .2  Expressing anger.  Sandy, repressing (holding anger in) is not
    good.  I believe that letting the child express the anger in
    appropriate ways is far healthier than squashing expression of
    anger.  Whats appropriate?  Basically any expression of anger which
    does not involve hitting living things, or damaging goods, or words
    which are directed AT people to hurt them, name calling etc.
    
    Jeff

    As long as we're on the topic of "expressing" for a moment here, and
    this issue came up last night, I wanted to get other people's opinions
    on this ....
    
    Last night we were driving home when Jason (5) was is a ROTTEN mood and
    being a really spoiled BRAT.  He was complaining that I got him gum at
    the store instead of a candy bar.  (I know, I shouldn't have gotten him
    ANYthing!)  Anyway, I told him if he didn't stop complaining about the
    gum that I was going to take it away.  He didn't stop, and I took it
    away, which threw him into a bit of a rage, which ended with him
    telling me he hates me, and that he wants to live with Daddy (his
    father and I are separated).  So, I told him okay, and that he could
    pack his things when we got home, because I certainly wasn't going to
    live with someone who hated me.  He was pretty content with that.  
    
    When we got home, he wanted help packing, and I told him that was his
    problem, and if he's going to "hate" someone, he can't expect them to
    help him.  He said he didn't care, and wandered off.  He asked if I
    would miss him, and I said that if he hated me, I shouldn't think that
    I would miss someone who hated me.  Then he said that he could come
    back and visit when he wanted, to which I told him NO, if he really hated 
    me, then he would leave "tonight" (last night), and that would be it,
    and he just wouldn't HAVE a Mommy anymore.
    
    Then he asked if he could stay.
    
    As I explained to him, it's *PERFECTLY OKAY* for him to be mad at me or
    anyone, and it's FINE to say that, but it's NOT okay to go around
    telling people you hate them.  I told him "there are plenty of times
    when I'm mad at you, but I don't *EVER* hate you!"  He got the message,
    and I think he better understands the difference between temporary
    emotions (such as anger), and _real_ emotions, such as love, hate etc.
    In the end, it all worked out (or seemed to), and by the end of the
    evening, he was huggy again, and we were telling each other we loved
    each other etc.
    
    Now .... my boyfriend thought this was all a little harsh for a 5 year
    old, and perhaps it was, but it didn't seem it to me.  For him to be
    "old" enough to say and feel he "hates" someone, then he should
    understand what those words might mean to someone else.  He was pretty
    horrified when I asked him how HE'D feel if I got mad and said "Jason,
    I hate you!"  I've been through this with my older son, in almost an
    identical circumstance, and with the same results.  Except that now
    Chris can say "Mommy, I really don't like it when ...", or "I'm MAD at
    you!" (and BOY can he get mad! (-:), but he knows that no matter what's
    going on at the moment, we always do and will love each other.  I think
    it also makes it easier to say "sorry" later on, when such harsh words
    as "I hate you" haven't been exchanged.
    
    What do you think?  I'm open to the guns, so fire at will ....
    
    Patty

    First  - Jeff - I didn't mean to imply "repressing" anger.  I said
    "channeling".  Repressing is keeping them in, channeling is giving them
    an outlet that is safe and appropriate. 
    
    Second - Patty - I guess I'm lucky in that my kids haven't said that to
    their parents yet.  I don't think you were too harsh - but then I
    wasn't sitting there watching the reactions of those involved.  I think
    kids need to understand how much the tongue can hurt - even when they
    don't really mean to hurt.  
    
    
    -sandy
    

RE: .31

	You seem to have the most important rule of parenting down. STICK TO
	YOUR GUNS. Never make a threat you won't carry out and always carry 
	out the threats you make. The really valuable lesson your child learned
	was that you say what you mean and you mean what you say.

    My 2�...I agree with .19 too.  We aren't financially able to have one
    parent at home and still afford to send our daughter to college, but we
    are lucky to have her at a neighbor's during the day who does have
    strong moral/family beliefs.  
    
    I also agree with .23 (?) who mentions about neighborhood kids having
    no respect for other people's things.  We have 2 boys in our
    neighborhood who also seem to think our yard is their playground and
    they can ride their bikes on the lawn, play ball, etc. (when we aren't
    there or our toddler isn't outside).  I'm the one who is always sending
    them home.  Their own parents are totally oblivious as to where they
    are and what they are doing.  Drives me crazy, but they also happen to
    be friends with my 2 year old daughter, so I have to tolerate it a bit.
    
    Since Kaitlin was born, we are gradually getting to know some of the
    neighbors (mostly the kids).  When I grew up, mothers were home all day
    and everyone knew everyone else on our street.  (That was CT).  In our
    neighborhood, (MA), I find that most people are so busy working or
    just trying to keep up with housework/yard that no-one visits one
    another.  I don't think the people are necessarily unfriendly, just
    busier than years ago.
    
    Robin

    Good topic!
    
    As a parent of 3 teens, I'd like to express my thoughts.  I was strict
    but gave them plenty of room to grow. I didn't say wait for your father 
    to get home.. I diciplined them right then and there....  Now that my 
    daughter is over 18 she is glad that I was strict but taught them 
    independence. Majority of her friends have a child/ren, are on drugs or 
    drink/abusive and all the rest. But still many of her friends are in 
    colleges and are doing something with their lives. 
    
    My children were not isolated they were exposed to the city and
    suburbs, they learned about drugs/alchol/abuse/neglegence. All through
    family/friends. But they also learned about choices, how to deal with
    different types/classes of people, love, they have traveled. We always 
    lived in a mixed environment. My children mixed with 
    white/black/mixed/oriental/spanish thru sports, different events, 
    traveling.. 
    
    Note 509.25 had a great reply. Agreed with everything in that note.
    
    You can't control your kids actions while they are at school you can
    only control what you have taught them at home and hope. One thing when 
    children are with other peers your not there, they have to either know 
    what goes on and how to handle different situations.  Ma and Da will not 
    always be around to help or to get them out of situations. They got to
    learn. 
    
    As they get older you will loose control. Because now they have many more 
    friends, want to go to the movies together. A 13 year old does not want 
    to have a parent with them at movies, or go with them trick or treating...
    They need to learn to do things with their own peers, but know that
    there are boundaries.
    
    One thing I used to always say was that they may not know all my friends 
    but my friends know them and if they see or hear anything that I should
    know they would let me know, they always had to keep an extra guard up 
    because of they never knew and believe me they have tried it... I let
    them know that you may get over once or twice but you will get caught.
    I always told them when they are with their friends ask themselves if 
    whatever they were doing how would it affect them, is it worth it, and 
    then I would emphasize that they better NOT embarrass my name.... This
    was enforced very early in life.
    
    I had to stay on top of everything, know who the friends are, double
    checked where they were going, talked with the parents of their
    friends, invited their friends, talked with their friends. Met with
    teachers, stopped buy without them knowing I was going to be in the
    neighborhood. I was a parent to mine and a friend (Parent first). You 
    become mom to many other teens, when you talk/ed with them about friends, 
    sex, violence, breaking the law, anything in the news we would talk
    about. I kept them busy, actually I did that by just trying to find their 
    gift in life. They were in sports from 6 years of age, danced for a dance 
    studio, modeled, many more.
    
    No child is perfect, all children are different. I applied the same to
    my son who is 14 and he is totally different, for one he has ADD. He
    was in behavior disorder classrooms, and is now out. but he is a teen
    that will always try to get over.......And my 13 year old nephew who
    lives with me is different, but I apply the same technique as the other
    two.
    
    My children teachers, friends parents, relatives all have told me that my 
    child is very polite, has manerism... But let them get somewhere
    without adults, totally different people. 
    
    There are certain things that children have to learn, you hope for the
    best. They will get into things, and they have to learn about the
    others out there so that they are AWARE....That not everybody is the
    same, or have the same values... It's very hard to be a parent of a
    teen, much easier when they are under your total control (under
    school-age).
    
    This was supposed to be very brief, I got carried away....
    

    re. 5 unrealistic portrayal of violence:
    
    Its a Catch 22 situation.  If violence is shown as it really can be with
    someone who has just been shot AGONIZING to breath, bleeding,
    slobbering, crawling, thrashing around, complete with appropriate
    facial expressions many of us would be OUTRAGED that kids were exposed
    to such painful detail.  If, on the other hand the person get shot,
    instantly falls down and all but appears to be asleep (as the old 
    Westerns typically show) we scream 'your not showing the kids how
    painful being hurt can BE!')  
    
    So which is it to be?  Detailed, painful reality which tends to
    desensitize people, or the scenes which make getting hurt look like the
    eqivalent to taking a short nap?
    
    Well, the solution is to reduce/eliminate the violence on TV?  That
    way the kids don't get bum info, nor are they desensitized.
    
    Jeff

    When I was a kid in the 1950's we played "Cowboys" every day.  This was
    complete with twin holsters, twin six shooters, and a Winchester
    Carbine.  The guns shot caps, and the carbine made a bang from
    compressed air.  I never was fooled into thinking that our games
    were the equivalent of reality.  I knew that play shooting someone
    was just a game and people shouldn't REALLY shoot others.  (Except
    in wars of course) Smile.  The fun was in the stalking, and outwitting
    my peers in an outdoor setting.  It also involved 'experimenting with
    death' in the sense that we were pretending to die.. but it WAS
    PRETENDING and we never lost sight of that.
    
    I KNEW that in REALITY my friends lives and my own were PRICELESS.
    But it WASN'T reality, it was PLAYING.  
    
    Maybe todays kids have trouble seperating reality from play?
    
    My friends and I have grown up to be responsible non violent adults.
    What went wrong?  Why wern't we marred for life having been allowed to
    play at shooting people?  I dare say its because its NOT THAT SIMPLE.
    
    Its the COMBINATION of poor parenting, ABSENT parents typically with
    the father no longer on the scene,  TV violence, and the LACK OF
    IDEALS NOT BEING TAUGHT TO KIDS.  I saw cowboy shows on TV constantly
    with 'people being shot' when I was a boy.  I never thought that what I
    was seeing was the way it REALLY was to get shot other than the falling
    part.  I KNEW that the TV actors were PLAYING too!
    
    My five year old son Matt uses STICKS to shoot at things.  I don't
    HAVE to give him guns, he MAKES them out of trash!  He 'needs' to be
    constantly disarmed!
    
    I am not concerned. He is being taught the difference between play
    hurting and real hurting and he is being taught appropriate values.
    
    "Man" is a hunter by nature, its in our genetic make up.  That is, the
    urge to stalk and hunt prey.  Modern man, (boys) must channel that 
    energy into appropriate play
    
    Jeff

    Patty, your note reminded me of a spat I had with Alex last weekend. 
    It was GORGEOUS weather, but I needed to do some serious spring
    cleaning and Alex was whining about having nothing to do.  She wanted
    to watch videos; I told her to go outside, but she whined louder that
    there was nothing to DO outside.  Aaarrgh!!!
    
    I went into my spiel: I am the mother, NOT the cruise director/
    entertainment emporium.  You WILL go outside and you will FIND
    something to do; *I* am an only child and *I've* never had a problem
    amusing myself, especially outdoors.  [Now, being with other people,
    that can be a problem ;-} ]
    
    So I "tossed" her, sobbing, out into the merciless sunshine and
    hellish breezes--then went from window to window for a while, making
    sure she didn't decide to run away from home!  Basically she wandered
    aimlessly for about 10 minutes, muttering and whimpering protests and 
    accusations.  (Meanwhile I'm beating back the guilt with a stick,
    horrified that she could have gotten to this age with no clue about
    communing with nature solo.)  Soon it was evident that the mosquitos
    had found her, so I relented a little: I got some skin-so-soft (hey, I
    don't care if it's a placebo if it WORKS!) together with a book and a
    quilt and a pencil and some writing paper, called her to the door and
    told her she couldn't come in yet, but here were some supplies.
    
    Five minutes later I heard the door open and shut; I stormed over there
    ready to throw her out again, and I found a paper on the floor:
    
    	       		I HATE YOU
    			YES YOU!!!!
    
    :-)  :-D
    
    I taped it up on my mirror, and it still feels like a mosquito-bite on
    my heart....  We talked later about the word "hate", and about how her
    exile into the great outdoors turned out to be a sort of picnic
    adventure.  I think it probably helped her a lot to write that poison-
    pencil nastygram  }:-}  so I think of it as OK channeling.  (But then,
    I know that she knows the difference between real hate and "I hate
    liver".)
    
    Leslie
    

    Re. past: "How do you keep your child gentle?"
    
    I think there is a big difference between being gentle and a floor
    matt, and being gentle and sticking up for your rights.  
    
    I try to teach my son that I expect him to be polite and respect the
    rights of others, at the same time he can expect the same from others.
    If a bully comes after him he has the right to defend himself
    appropriate to stop the attack on himself.  Its quite possible to 
    be gentle, strong, and polite and respect the rights of others.  They
    are not inconsistent with one another.
    
    Jeff

    I know this is a little delayed, but I'm still catching up...
    
    Last weekend I spent chaperoning a group of teenage girls (we like to
    think of them as "young ladies"), it was a ratio of 5 adults; except
    for me the others were parents of some of the girls, to 18 girls ages
    11 to 18, average age was the 13 to 15 year old range.  We were in a
    fairly nice hotel for the state gathering of a group.  I, as a
    "singledon" got *stuck* in a room with three of the girls.  Let me tell
    you  NEVER AGAIN!  But let's not jump to a hasty conclustion.  My only
    complaint is the rap music, and it's related volume.  Most of the
    girls, and the time spent was actually pleasant and refreshing.  My
    only feedback from the whole weekend is that something about this age
    group seems greatly un or ill mannered.  I found myself reminding (all
    of) the girls quite frequently, to say please and thankyou and to
    excuse themselves, and by the second afternoon trying to show the girls
    that they really shouldn't be so quick to acuse, and they really were
    reacting to a lack of sleep more than anything else.  Many
    conversations of "someone took my .....(fill in the blank)", which was
    found shortly after in the back of the bureau drawer.  I made the
    observation and verbalized also that my 6 year old son has more manners
    than some of these "young ladies".  But in defense of that, many of our
    girls come from less than Ideal homes, many from single parent homes,
    many from parents with some variety of addiction, some were abused, so
    I do understand, sympathize, and very much try to be a friend to the
    girls.  I do realize very clearly, that *gentle* pursuasion, and
    redirecting energy, and huge amounts of praise will get the best
    results.  I came home tired last Sunday, but at the same time realizing
    that with the right amount of guidance this current teen generation is
    going to do OK!  We were careful to give them just the right amount of
    leeway, space and freedom to do their own thing.  But next year, I'm
    packing EARPLUGS!!
    
    Related to this, I fight a loosing battle in my home against watching
    violent TV.  Dad sides with my son, and Star Trek is a nightly ritual
    not to be challenged.  Fortunate for me guns seem to be less important,
    at least right now, than balls, bats, and bikes.  I can only hope it
    stays that way.
    
    I guess I too am guilty of rambling!
    Lyn

    And as a quick P.S. to the last note, I am pleased to brag that AJ will
    willingly, and automatically say please and thank you, and excuse
    himself if he burps, or needs to get by someone, or wants to interrupt
    during a conversation.  BUT the interupting part doesn't always work,
    because he has a basic lack of patience for waiting.
    
    am I allowed to brag?  He has been doing this since roughly age 3, I
    guess I did do ONE thing right?
    
    Lyn

    	Regarding violence on TV, until recently we have been a Star Trek
    (TNG) family but then the local channel switched from TNG to Star Trek
    Classic. 

    	I hadn't realized how violent the original series was/is. Spencer
    gets very upset (uh-oh) when watching this (we've watched it twice) and
    we've pretty much decided (ok, *I've* decided, nothing could turn Marc
    from Star trek) to direct Spencer's attention from Star Trek in the
    evenings to games and playing with a song video before bed.

        With a Dad like Marc, Spencer is eventually going to be exposed to
    Star Trek Classic but until he's a little older, we'll hold off for
    now.

    	Now, if they would only knock off that Barney.
                  only kidding ;-)


                  		Wendy
    			

    related theme...I heard on the news yesterday about a Bill
    going throgh congress that will require 'warning' messages
    before shows and during 'commercial breaks' if a show
    contains violence.  The comments were thatit would (something like)
    'close the empowerment gap' for parents.

    I'm pretty mystifed by this....do you have an 'empowerment gap'
    that will be solved by warning messages?  Can you think of many
    shows that would not warrant such a warning?

    We just dont let the kids watch much TV.  Too many other more
    interesting things to do.
    bob

    I think parents should watch TV with their kids - not use it as
    entertainment for them (keep them out of your way kind of thing). 
    Except for a few shows, we watch with the boys.  We can explain things
    to them - we can hit the remote when a show turns to the unexpected -
    we monitor what they see.  If something is inappropriate for them to
    watch, I will change the channel and tell them that I think it's
    inappropriate to watch that TV show.  I don't send them from the room -
    we all stop watching it.  
    
    I have found myself watching more Discovery channel lately (especially
    since the reruns hit) and find that I really like it.  My kids are not
    into nature shows, but I enjoy them (except the other night - "The
    Wonderful World of Dung" - that was a strange one!).
    
    -sandy
    

    Lyn,
    I think I said this here before, but, *I* watched Star Trek first
    run (1966) as a 7 year old. It was my FAVOURITE show (and still is!)
    
    And since I married into an entire FAMILY of Star Trek fans (First
    time I walked into Grandma Barney's house 3 years ago she wouldn't get
    up and say hello until the commercial 8-) ), I think this will be
    something we will not stay away from.
    
    However, I do agree very much with the idea of imposing limitations
    on television. Unfortunately, Alan is somewhat addicted. He suggested
    we put the thing out of the livingroom and into the basement (which 
    really isn't set up as a family room), but I disagreed in the basis
    that I wouldn't be able to FIND him - he'd be hiding down there with
    it on, instead of watching it less!)
    We have some work to do on this!...
    
    Monica

re: TV addiction

If you're dealing with addiction to a specific show, you can "time shift" by 
using a VCR to record the show, then watching it at a better time, such as 
after the kids are in bed.  This can actually be better, since the person 
can watch it without interruption, and can even pause the tape if they need 
to, so they don't miss anything.  If you're dealing with addiction to 
watching TV, this doesn't work.

re: moving the TV

As your kids get older, I think you'll want to have it in the living room, or 
ideally a family room if you have one.  Reason is, that you want to be able 
to see what they are watching (or what Nintendo game they are playing) and 
still be able to do other things.

Clay