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Conference moira::parenting

Title:Parenting
Notice:Previous PARENTING version at MOIRA::PARENTING_V3
Moderator:GEMEVN::FAIMANY
Created:Thu Apr 09 1992
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1292
Total number of notes:34837

506.0. "when play turns rough" by WMOIS::HERTEL_K () Tue Apr 27 1993 15:03

I need some help from some more-experienced parents.

When 14 month old Max is around other children (his own age), I have a hard 
time knowing how to react to certain situations.  The problem seems especially
difficult because limits that other parents set for their children are so 
different.  What I allow other children to do with Max and his toys may not
be okay with other parents if Max behaves the same way.  For example, if Max
has a toy that he is not playing with, anyone can play with it, and Max is 
not allowed to take it away.  Another parent may feel that it was Max's toy
to begin with and he can play with it no matter what.  This can be unfair to
Max because he has to share when another child does not.

Situation 1:
    Max and another child are playing sort-of together.  One child swings 
    his/her arms and strikes the other child (probably an accident).  No one
    minds.  This happens again and again but it seems playful.  The recipient
    is now bothered by it and retaliates (possible by hitting).  At this 
    point, I would separate the children, but what should I have done?  I
    can't tell if the original contact was a pat (like Max pats my back when
    he hugs me), or worse.  Should I have separated them at the time of the 
    first contact?  It seems to me that children are experimenting with 
    play, and just learning about each other and this is the way they do it.

    Also, I tend to let other kids touch Max unless he seems bothered by it, 
    even if it involves some of these pats.  Now, if Max touches another child
    in this manner (no apparent malice) I don't know what to do.  Another 
    parent might not appreciate this behavior from my child.  Do I stop Max
    even though I let other children do this to him?  Do I no longer allow
    other children to touch Max because I don't feel comfortable when he
    touches other children (he is usually gentle)?  What do you do?

Situation 2:
    Another child is playing with one of Max's toys.  Max walks up to the 
    other child and grabs a toy.  At 14 months old, I don't think he 
    understands the concept of sharing.  What do I do?  Do I give the toy 
    back to the other child?  If the other child is not at all bothered, 
    do I ignore it?  Do I reprimand Max?  
    Now, what if the other child hits Max.  Do I ignore that?  Do I separate
    the children?  Who gets the toy?

Situation 3:
    Max is playing with another child's toy.  The other child takes it from
    Max. What do I do?  It's not Max's toy, it belongs to the other child.  I
    can't tell the other child that he is not allowed to play with his own 
    toys.  With Max's toys, I let anyone play, but that doesn't give Max the 
    right to help himself to anyone else's toys.  Where do I draw the line?  
    What is fair to Max.
    Now if Max hits the child that is taking the toy, what do I do?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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506.1Use Your rules for MaxBCSE::WEIERPatty, DTN 381-0877Tue Apr 27 1993 15:3665
    This is always a tough one, and can be touchy depending on other
    parents around.  What I try to do is keep some "base rules" ...
    
    It's _never_ okay to hit anyone for anything, and it's never okay for
    another child to hit one of mine.  If your child gets hit and the other
    parent is not interested in "doing anything" to stop/prevent it, than I
    would suggest that you move your child.
    
    My kids have 1 "favorite" toy (well, at that age they did) that no one
    else was allowed to play with, no matter what.  Everything else is on a
    "who had it first, has it now" kind of system.  This seems to be the
    most common among parents, so raised the least heat.  If one of my kids
    is playing with something that another kid is having an absolute FIT
    about, I'll try to get my child to relinquish the toy, in trade for
    another.  If the other kid is being a BRAT and their parent(s) are just
    totally ignoring the situation, I may say something to my child like
    "We have to learn to share better so that we'll have friends", or
    something that will, hopefully, wake up the other parent a bit.
    
    There are a lot of parents who don't seem to care what their kids
    behave like at all.  If a child isn't being watched, and they're
    hurting/bothering my child, I will do what's fair.  If that means
    saying No! to the other child, then that's what I'll do.  If their
    parent comes over and decides to say something to me, a simple "Oh,
    well it didn't look like anyone was watching him/her", is more than
    enough usually.
    
    Touching is up to you - just be aware that 
    
    a)he's a boy, and if he decides to continue "touching" as he gets
    older, you might find some paranoid parent of a daughter, or find your
    self in a situation that started very innocently (granted 14 mos is
    young for this stuff!)
    
    b)As they get older, any type of physical contact ALWAYS seems to end
    up with someone getting hurt.  A touch turns into a poke, which turns
    into a harder poke then a slap and a shove and .... argh!  You get the
    idea.
    
    For mine, any type of touching is limited and supervised.  A lot of
    kids don't like to be touched at all, and a LOT of parents feel
    uncomfortable about the whole thing ... use your judgement.  FWIW, a
    friend of mine's 5-year old daughter was playing "I'll show you mine,
    if you show me yours", with her 8 year old cousin and another female
    friend.  An "innocent" game of "you show me" and some simple touching,
    turned into a LOT more, over time.  It started VERY simple, and went on
    for several months until it reached the point where the boy had the
    girls very frightened that they would get in trouble if they "told",
    made them get undressed, and he had intercourse with the other girl. 
    My friends daughter ran away .... but she was still too afraid to say
    anything, and no one found out until months later, when the other girl
    went through an "emotional breakdown".  The boy had always been very
    verbal about girls and "private parts" and touching and that sort of
    stuff, and his parents tried to downplay it, hoping if they "ignored"
    it, he'd eventually stop.  The counselors said that at times kids will
    talk about things to "test the waters", and if you don't react in a
    negative way, they perceive that as you saying "it's okay" ....  Just
    so you're careful.  I know with 2 boys of my own, I am always concerned
    that they KNOW that they're not supposed to do certain things, without
    actually having to TELL them what those certain things are.  
    
    Good Luck!  It gets easier, because soon Max will learn to just walk
    away if he doesn't like the way some kid is treating him.
    
    
506.2You can only do YOUR best!SALEM::WHITNEY_ATue Apr 27 1993 15:4011
    You have asked a whole bunch of questions that I often ask myself.
    
    Unfortunately I dont' think that there are any real answers  to any
    of the questions.  You just have to do what you think is right and
    hope for the best....
    
    I am really anxious to hear what the other noters have to say
    about this!
    
    -/andrea
    
506.3CSLALL::LMURPHYTue Apr 27 1993 16:209
    Lindsay isn't allowed to grab things from other people, even her own
    toys.  I help her give it back to whomever.  She is 15 months.  It is 
    uncomfortable when it's someone else's toy however....I would and have 
    said "Honey, XXX doesn't want to share that toy right now, lets find 
    something he will let you play with"...and we look together for something 
    else. That usually wakes up another parent and they begin to watch the 
    behavior too....so that the next toy she finds won't be grabbed too!
    
    
506.4clarification on touchingWMOIS::HERTEL_KTue Apr 27 1993 16:3642
I may need to clarify this:

>    Also, I tend to let other kids touch Max unless he seems bothered by it, 
>    even if it involves some of these pats.  Now, if Max touches another child
>    in this manner (no apparent malice) I don't know what to do.  Another 
>    parent might not appreciate this behavior from my child.  Do I stop Max
>    even though I let other children do this to him?  Do I no longer allow
>    other children to touch Max because I don't feel comfortable when he
>    touches other children (he is usually gentle)?  What do you do?

re: .1  Thank you for all your comments.  I think you understood my meaning
of "touching" because of your "b) reply" which is the type of information I'm
looking for.

>    b)As they get older, any type of physical contact ALWAYS seems to end
>    up with someone getting hurt.  A touch turns into a poke, which turns
>    into a harder poke then a slap and a shove and .... argh!  You get the
>    idea.
    
To clarify what I mean by "touching", this is simply baby type touching.
Examples:
	o  a light non-malicious pat on the head
	o  touching a nose with the index finger (as you would when you play
		where's your nose)	
	o  a gentle tug on an ear
	o  a pat or gentle non-malicious push on the back
	o  trying to sit close to another child, and ending up on the 
		child's lap

This is all very innocent.  I think babies are curious about each other and 
they all seem to immediately try to touch each other (especially touching the
face).  Of course at 14 months, Max doesn't always succeed in the "gentle" 
part.  He just doesn't seem to mean to be rough.  Also, a few pokes in the
nose can get irritating to the poke-ee

I do not mean any kind of sexually curious type touching.  I am talking about
diaper-wearers here and I would not even allow Max to touch another child's 
diaper.  I also would not allow Max to be touched in that way.  He is only
14 months old and I don't think that would be appropriate.  Also, at this age,
Max is more interested in touching a face.  This seems to hold true for other
children that Max encounters also.  They don't seem to even notice any 
"private parts".
506.5Working on #4 ... and still learningGLINDA::SMARTTue Apr 27 1993 17:0462
    Hi,
    
    	I have three children and am expecting my fourth.  All this means
    	is that I'm still learning and have made tons of mistakes along
    	the way .... with still more to come.
    
    	I think the fact that you are asking all of these questions and 
    	are concerned about other children's feelings as well as Max's says
    	you're further ahead than a lot of us were when our first was only
    	fourteen months old.  
    
    	With each of my kids, I eased up a little more.  For my oldest, I
    	simply wanted to protect him ... all of the time ... against anyone
    	I now think that was WRONG ... in a big way.  I have learned that
    	kids learn from each other best.  They usually handle the situation
    	better themselves without our intervention.  
    
    	I have some pretty basic beliefs though ...  which are very
    	different from .1 ...
    
    	1.  Touching is healthy ... especially at fourteen months old. Its
    	    a necessary form of communication.  I think its obvious when
    	    touching occurs in areas uncomfortable to a child, action is
    	    needed.  We all know that.
    
    	2.  Hitting is a way that a child shows frustration.  I don't
    	    generally step in immediately; I wait for the response of the
    	    recipient.  Many times the recipient walks or crawls away
    	    leaving a very clear message for the hitter ... and a much 
    	    stronger message than we, as parents, could give.  If it turns
    	    into a hitting contest (ie, the recipient hits back), I would
            hold my child briefly,  tell them each  "no" and then back off.  
    	    If it starts up again, I would entertain my child away from the 
    	    situation.  Not all kids are going to get along with each 
            other ... or they just could be having a bad day.
    
            I won't get into what I believe about other parents' behavior.
    	    Its too biased.  If you don't agree with how other parents are
    	    handling the situation ... put it in your hat ... and remember
    	    it the next time your child is with theirs.
    
            The biggest thing I've learned is that kids forgive each other
    	    parents don't ... and then kids pay.
    
    	    Your gut feeling is so good, I think you should stick with it.
    	    The goal is to have Max grow up to be loving, self-sufficient,
    	    and happy, right (among other things).  Kids develop their own
    	    fears, they don't need all of ours as well.
    	
    	3.  Toy sharing ... who knows ...  There is always going to be at
    	    least one who won't share (it usually was my daughter).  She's
    	    nine now and almost there ... unless its something she really
    	    wants.  Whether its right or wrong, I tend to try to create a
    	    diversion ... toys are just things ... I don't want my kids
    	    too hung up on materialism ... as they get older they learn
    	    more than enough about it.
    
    	Good luck!
    
    	Max sounds like he's a great start.
    
    
506.6GLINDA::SMARTTue Apr 27 1993 17:104
    to your response in .4 ...  I should have waited a couple of minutes
    before responding ... in .5.  You have it under control.  
    
    
506.7SSGV02::ANDERSENMake a note if it !Wed Apr 28 1993 13:205
.5>            The biggest thing I've learned is that kids forgive each other
.5>    	    parents don't ... and then kids pay.
    

	How true.