Conference moira::parenting

    Well, I remember how it was when I was a teen.  My kids are too young,
    so I don't have "today's issues" to be concerned about yet.  I saw
    something on TV last night that I thought was neat - you come in late
    by say 1 hour, you get up that much earlier the next morning.  I would
    have preferred that over being grounded when I was a kid - but that's 
    from a kid's perspective.
    
    Maybe if you get the kids to sit with parents and work out the rules
    and the "punishment" for infractions.  They are old enough to be a part
    of the solution now.
    
    -sandy
    

    I think the question was more about the parents than the kids.  The
    parents cannot agree so the kids are left to either
    	- try to obey both sets of rules at once
    	- chose the rule that feels most lenient, and follow that one
    	- chose the rule that is strictest, and hope to avoid conflict
    	- chose the rule that comes from the parent most likely to blow up
    	  the rule is disobeyed.
    I've been in this boat.  I advised my daughter to chose the strictest
    and obey that one.  She didn't always follow my advise.  It's hard on
    the child.  Even when the child is an adult.  It's hard on the parent
    who is trying to do things "right," but gets no cooperation from the
    other parent.  At least in my case, it borders on a non-issue for the
    "other" parent, because they are so sure that they have "the" answer.

    
    I agree with "pick the stricter rule".
    
    Also, I find it helpful to put a stake in the ground, so to speak.  If
    your partner will not enter into the discussion, make up your own,
    well-thought-out rules and inform the kids.  Your rules will give them
    some fall-back position ("I think dad may say this, but I *KNOW* this
    is mom's position at a minimum)
    
    
    Good luck.  
    JAmd

    I know when my daughter was 16 1/2 she could go out but had to be in by 
    11:00-11:30, until she turned 17. Then it was 12:00-12:30 give or take.
    She knew if she was going to be late (ie. they went out for
    breakfast, which was usually the case) [boy is she like her mother] she
    would have to call first to get permission. If she didn't or was late I
    would make it a half hour earlier the next time. She is 18 now and her 
    curfew is now 1:00, give or take. She is pretty good at it, like I said
    give or take.......
    
    Now I wish my 14 year old son would be as easy.... But I guess you got
    to have at least one... to give you most of the problems. 

     This is different than the base note, but it falls in the general area
of teen rules.

     My 14 year old daughter has been invited to a party.  In enquiring
about the party, we found out that (1) the party was scheduled to go all
night; (2) that there would be both boys and girls there; (3) the parents
are on vacation, and the chaperon is the host's 20 year old brother.  We
told her she could not go.  According to my wife she is upset, and says that
it's because we don't trust her.

     That is not the case.  We do trust her, and she has never done anything
to cause us to lose trust in her.  We just don't think that parties like
that are appropriate for 14 year olds, and yes, there are some things we are
worried about.  I will talk to her tonight, and I know that the issue will
certainly come up.  I'm not sure what to say; I don't want to come across as
patronizing, and I certainly don't want to her to get the idea that "Being
trustworthy ain't worth it, because they won't trust me anyway."  And I am
pleased that she was honest about the situation; if she said the parents
were going to be there, I probably would not have done anything to verify
it.  So I don't want to encourage to lie or to misrepresent the situation.

     Any thoughts on how to approach this?

     Also, we probably are conservative on my outlook as to what activities
she can engage in, and our minds are pretty well made up on this; in fact I
am rather angry at her parents for allowing something like this at all (I do
not believe that her friend is doing this without her parents' knowledge). 
But I am willing to listen to any noters who think we are being
unreasonable.

Clay

>>I do not believe that her friend is doing this without her parents' knowledge). 

    I think she is doing it behind her parents back.  I also think that
    her brother will probably have his friends there as well.  I don't
    think that you would want your 14 year old daughter socializing with
    20 year old boys, especially if she is likely to attract their
    attention.  And the older crowd will probably be drinking and encouraging
    the younger ones to have a drink.  One beer in a 14 year old girl who
    has never drunk before could be quite dangerous.

    Karen

    I think it is CONCERN.   I also believe 14 years is too young for an
    all night party, even with a 20 year old chaperone.   Where will this
    chaperone be?   My guess, is that he will be too involved with a
    girlfriend being over to pay attention to what the younger kids are
    doing.   If it was just an overnight party for girls, then I think I
    would (maybe) let her go.
    
    If your daugher is really adament about going to the party, perhaps you
    could compromise with her.  Tell her she can go for a few hours only,
    just so that your daughter won't feel left out, but that she can't stay
    overnight.  But, I also would have very bad feelings about a 14 year old
    child going to an overnight party where there were boys and girls.  
    
    Good luck handling this issue.   My daughter is only 7 at this time,
    and I dread the teen years for this very reason.   I want my daughter
    to feel like I trust her, but I also want to have some say in what
    types of activities she involves herself in.   I can see it now. Oh the
    arguments we are going to have.   Trust, I feel, is a very sticky issue
    when it comes teenagers.  They think and feel like that are old enough
    to make the right decision and they want their parents to trust them.
    They just don't understand that situations can get out of control.
    
    Once again.  Good luck.
    
    
    
    

    
    An all night party with a 20 year old supervising??   Sounds like
    trouble to me...    I agree with your decision Clay and also with
    what Karen had to say.
    
    A potential compromise might be that she could attend for a couple
    of hours with you dropping her off and picking her up.   How do 
    14 year olds get to parties anyways? (can you tell it's been awhile?)
    
    Also, I was thinking you could check with the parents - but if they
    didn't know about it, you'd hate to have a cancelled party be on
    your daughter's shoulders, so to speak, with the other kids!
    
    cj/

    I agree with the previous replies.  A 20 year old is not
    necessarily a responsible adult.  If you must compromise
    I would do as the others suggested and have her stay for
    a few hours.  Perhaps you could arrange something to do
    with her after the party (ie. go to the movies, have a 
    cousin or other friend sleep over etc.) so that she will
    have some excuse to leave.  Kids that age can be mean and
    make fun of her for being uncool or having parents that
    care too much.
    
    I also agree that you might call the parents.  They do not
    have to know who you are.  Just tell them that you are a 
    concerned parent and you heard that their daughter is 
    having a party and that their son would be chaperoning.
    You can ask them how responsible their son is (although
    parents are usually the last to know what their grown
    children are really up to so I wouldn't rely on this)
    
    If they do not know about the party and it is cancelled,
    they will not know that it is you calling, they will
    know how much they can trust their children and you may
    save some other parents child from a dangerous situation.
    
    It's a tough situation to be in.  Good luck  and keep
    on loving your little girl and she will appreciate it
    when she is grown.
    
    Pam

I think you are absolutely right in not letting her go overnight.

I think that a compromise might be possible.  I'd call the parents and talk 
with them.  If there are to be none of the chaperon's friends there, and 
if the other kids there will be around age 14, I'd let her go for a few 
hours.

If there's another 14 year old girl who is close to your daughter, who also
has concerned parents, they could spend the night together at your house
after the party, maybe rent a couple of videos and have something decadent
to eat.

    Carol

I, too, would not allow my daughter to attend this party.  I'm not
even sure about the compromise that others have suggested.  I've got 
about 12 more years to worry about this, though :-)

A possibilty to consider:  while your daughter may become very upset about
not attending this party, there may be a part of her that is secretly relieved
that you're setting appropriate limits.  I can remember ranting and raving
"You don't trust me" while still feeling relieved that I wouldn't have to
deal with peer pressure to smoke, drink, do drugs, etc. and having my parents
to blame it on was *much* easier than stating that I was a goody-two-shoes
(which I was :-).

    I have a 14 year old boy, and I would not let him go to a party with a 
    20 year old supervising.  I can't believe that the parents know about
    this and are ok with it.  Too many things can happen.  I would just
    explain to your daughter that it is not her that you do not trust, it
    is the other kids that might show up at the party uninvited and bring
    booze or even drugs.  At 14 a lot of kids are doing things that we do
    not want our kids to do yet.  I always talk openly with my son.  I know
    that one day he will want to have a beer with his friends but we have
    discussed drugs and how bad they can be.  At a party like this the peer 
    pressure to fit in could be very convincing, and only lead to trouble. 
    
    Good luck,
    
    Cheryl
       

I agree with the compromise of letting her go for a while.  You
want to encourage her to tell you what she is doing, so tell her
that you will let her go for a while, simply because you *do*
trust her and you *do* appreciate her being honest with you.

I'm impressed she told you about it.  And, I like Carol's
idea of having a friend leave with her and spend the night.
Then they can lock themselves in her room and relive the
party for several more hours...

Pat

    I agree with a previous noter about part of her possibly being
    relieved. My folks always made a point of telling me that if I didn't
    want to do something or go somewhere, I could always blame them instead
    of making it look like I was being miss_goody_two_shoes.  And I did use
    that as an excuse for things I just didn't want to do. It gave me a way
    out of things, and was reinforced enough at home that I thought to use
    it.
    
    I also wouldn't let her go for the whole party, but maybe just a few
    hours.  

    Not that you need any more responses, Clay - I think it's pretty much
    unanimous agreement here.  Don't let her go.  She sounds like a very
    responsible young lady for the fact that she gave you the details of
    the party.  I agree that she could have been looking for an excuse not
    to go (blaming it on mom and dad).  I have a hard time believing a 14
    year old who is this responsible would feel comfortable at a party like
    that.  
    
    I would NOT let my daughter(s) go either.  Yea, I'm sure they'd get mad
    and give me another pouting bout but they do get over it (and mine are
    only 7 and 4 - I'm sure you could tell me more stories of what I have
    to look forward to!).  However, they know I love them in the end as I'm
    sure your daughter does, too.  Boy - it's tough being such darn good
    parents - isn't it?  You're doing the right thing and I also like the
    earlier suggestions of having someone over in YOUR house so you feel
    like your daughter is SAFE (as opposed to being exposed to UNSAFE
    situations).
    
    Cindy

        fwiw:  When my nephew was just a bit over 20, he had a party and it got
    out of control.  He wound up calling the police to report his own
    friends.  So even if the brother is a responsible person, that's no
    guarantee that things would not get out of hand.

In terms of dealing with the trust issue, I think it has got to be made clear
that you DO trust your daughter, and on an individual basis you'd trust
her friends etc., but that you do not trust the overall situation in case
of accidents.

Stuart

    There is tremendous peer pressure at age 14+, especially around
    conformity to attend things like this. Having your own rules
    about where and under what circumstances she can attend things
    is really important, especially that they are applied consistently
    (i.e. that you stick with them).  At least she can argue that you're
    fair in applying your rules :-)
    
    This situation also makes me think of an article I read a year ago,
    about a bunch of teens who all went to a party and it got out of hand.
    Those that were forbidden by their parents from going were actually
    glad that they had an excuse for not being there. The parents' rule
    saved them from getting in trouble :-)  It seemed like an interesting
    view to take....
    
    best of luck
    Lynn
    

    At 14 I trusted my daughter, but I didn't trust some of the people that
    would show up at a party of this sort.  I am the no parents no
    attendance type, at least until they are over 16.
    
    I remember myself too well. ;-)
    
    meg

    Hmmmmmmmm .... I agree with letting her go for a couple hours (2?) and
    I like the idea of having a 'mini-party' with a friend afterwards, but
    part of me also wonders about the 20 yr old brother ....
    
    Maybe this is a stretch (my oldest is only 9, and at 20 yrs old I was
    on my own and never 'rowdy' in the least), but MAYBE this really is
    just intended to be a 'get a bunch of kids together, eat pizza, watch
    movies (we might otherwise not be allowed to watch), make a mess and
    have fun' ??  That would require .... 
    
    -all night
    -boys and girls
    -someone about 20 years old to put up with it all!
    
    To make that decision, you'd need to know the brother, and really know
    the parents of the teen hosting the party.  Are you convinced there'd
    be drinking?  And lots of other 20 yr olds?  I think, by themselves,
    any particular 20-yr old can be very responsible.  Especially if he's
    looking out for his younger brother/sister.  A pack of 20 yr olds has
    more potential to be a nightmare.
    
    Either way, it doesn't sound like you know them well enough to be
    comfortable, so I'd limit it to a few hours .... but just thought it
    might be worth THINKING about that maybe this IS an innocent party. (is
    there such a thing?)  Sometimes I wonder if we're so worried about what
    our kids are doing, that perhaps some of them do 'worse stuff' because
    they know they'll be accused/suspectedof it anyway .... when all they
    REALLY wanted was to play monopoly all night, and see what really IS on
    T.V. at 4am.
    
    Personally, I didn't start drinking until I was ~16, and then it was at
    one of my (Goody Two Shoes!) friends' houses, when her parents went
    out, and they let her have 2 friends spend the night .... Seemed
    innocent.  The 3 of us got drunk beyond any capacity to do more than
    throw up - if there'd been a 'problem' of any sort, we couldn't have
    dealt with it.  So maybe what seems innocent isn't, and what doesn't,
    might be.
    
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
    

    re: .5
    
    Clay,
    
    When is/was the party and can you give us an update as to how you
    handled the situation??
    
    cj/

re: .21

     Geez cj/ gimme a morning at least!  You sound like my kids view of me
:^) Thanks for all the responses.  The discussion turned out to be moot
(which is not to say unproductive).  A few general replies to some points
made:

>In terms of dealing with the trust issue, I think it has got
>to be made clear that you DO trust your daughter, and on an
>individual basis you'd trust her friends etc., 

Stuart brings up an interesting point.  It became apparent in the
conversation that it was not only important to her that I trust HER but that 
I trust her friends.  I said "I don't know your friends well enough to trust
them or not, but I do trust your ability to pick trustworthy friends." 
Which is true, thank goodness.  But just wait, I'm sure that her first
serious boyfriend will be a thirty year old ex-convict. ;^)

>but that you do not trust the overall situation in case of accidents.

Another good point (Stuart, you had a good day! :^) )

I did find the conversation did bog down at times because we
discussed/argued each of the possibilities (booze, drugs, sex, party
crashers, accidents, damage to property etc.).  That caused the conversation
to bog down and become unfocused at times, but it was certainly true that it
was the combination of possibilities that alarmed us. 

-    The possibility that she didn't really want to, and was relieved that
     we said no

I agree with the concept, and it could have been true in this situation, but
I don't think so.  I think that she genuinely believed that it would be a
fun time, and nothing bad would happen (kind of like Patty's "stretch"
scenario in .20).

-    The possibility of letting her go for a while, but not stay overnight.

Interesting suggestion.  SHE suggested that, and I did not say yes or no;
she's smart enough to realize that usually means "Dad and mom need to
discuss that."

Here are some more facts, and what actually happened:

     The parents were not on vacation; they were leaving for vacation
Saturday (so they were around while the party was being planned, but would
have been on vacation when the party occurred); the parents had given their
daughter permission to have a party; in the course of planning the party,
the scope (hours, number of kids, etc.) mushroomed; and the brother is the
eldest child in an extended Korean family (if you accept stereotypes, and/or
believe that Korean cultural norms apply to Korean families in the U.S. it
means that he probably has almost parent-like status and responsibility, so
Patty's comment about responsible 20 year olds may have been right on).

     As it turned out, the brother was not be able to be there, and the
parents are not willing to let the party go on without him (nor, according
to my daughter, did the girl want to have it).  So the party was canceled,
and my faith in my daughter's friend and her parents is restored.  The
discussion was moot, and at times intense, but useful.

     She showed me a complete list of who would be at the party.  She had
checkmarked her close friends, who she said would not bring any booze,
drugs, etc. and would stick together if anybody else tried to.  She had
checkmarked (with a different color pen) a couple who were causes for
concern, and said that they had been explicitly warned not to.  (I have to
admit, I was impressed; I thought her approach was quite sophisticated).  It
was a rational discussion, but we disagreed on the likelihood of something
happening, and on the ability of her and her friends to deal with it if it
should happen.

     Again, thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Clay
     

Sounds like you've got a great kid there, Clay.

    Carol