Conference moira::parenting

	I went skiing earlier this year with two other couples.  One
	brought their 6-7 year old son and enrolled him in ski school.
	He was enrolled in a class with mostly 5 year old children 
	since he is young for his age.  He had done ski school before but
	he still hasn't gone on a chair lift.  I can't believe that
	a ski instructor would bring a 3-1/2 year old on a lift!  The
	little kids don't even need to go up on a lift when they are
	first learning. 

	Anyhow, this was at Sunday River and they are rated to have the
	number one ski school in the North East.  I know the parents
	of this child were impressed.  They ski alot so they know what
	they like.

	Karen

	Hello,

	You didn't say where you were going to be staying.  Well, I
	recommend Breckenridge Ski Resort in Colorado.  Although
	we didn't use their facilities, being 8 weeks pregnant at the
	time we checked it out.

	They have an extensive childcare/learn to ski program there.  
	You wouldn't believe all the little skiers/racers all around
	the mountain!  These little tykes could bearly walk and yet 
	they were on skiis! They have this ropetow going up a very small
	hill and actually start skiing on green fake grass, (turf) they
	must get used to that then graduate to the real stuff??!!

	The resort in nestled in a quiant little town where everything
	is in walking distance....well, were we stayed it was at the
	Breckenridge Hotel.  It's a great place for a family vacation.
	
	Lynne

    
    Another recommendation for Sunday River.
    
    re. 1
    
    Ski schools will start teaching children as soon as they are
    diaper trained.    We hope to have our son on skis by this
    time next year.
    
    What's wrong with the chair lift?  If they are riding up
    with an adult, the little ones should be pretty safe.  
    I am amazed with what the "skiwees" can do on skis.
    
    My nephew loved Sunday River when he was 3 1/2  (he got to
    ski with the dinosaurs).   Now he is 6 and doing mogules ;-).
    
    My doctor took his 3 1/2 old to Smuggler's Notch two weekends
    ago.  He was showing off the pictures to me.  One of the instructors
    told him that the earlier the better for kids to learn.  You can
    have so much fun skiing with them.   He was impressed with the
    ski school there also.
    
    
    Jeanne
    
    

    Pat,
    
    	Can you tell me more about Ward Hill?  Can you rent skiis there?
    how much are the lessons??
    
    				thanks Paul

	Pat,

	I used to teach skiing at Ward Hill when I was 16.  Your note
	has me remembering the classes of first graders I used to teach -
	they were so cute!!!  Of course, I had an assistant that thought
	it was funny to get the kids to rebel, so when I said "OK, everyone
	give me your poles", they all started giggling and shaking their heads.
	I looked behind me, and here's the guy who's supposed to be helping
	me shaking his head and egging them on.  

	Anyway, my dad used to take my sister (3 years old at the time) up
	the chairlift with him, and they'd ski together with her between his
	legs.  She'd only go for a few runs, then would go into the nursery.

	Karen

In the resorts here, they put their children on skis as soon as they can walk.
We started both boys skiing when they were 3 but Mark didn't like it much until
he was about 4.  I can, however, understand a 3� year old being unwilling to
go up a chair lift with an instructor.  When they were little, we always taught
them ourselves until they were more comfortable being left on their own.
There was no problem going up in a lift with us.  I taught Markus to ski
myself by skiing backwards down the hill in a snowplow bent over holding the
tips of his skis together!  I think I learned more control than he did :-)

Our baby lifts usually use bottonhooks that are very slow and gentle.  Even the
littlest ones manage because they don't need any strength in their hands and
arms.

There is a neat resort near here called Valmorel which has one of the best
beginner areas I've seen.  They even teach adult beginners there.  There
are pistes which are formed to teach just left hand turns or just right hand
turns or one followed by the other.  You HAVE to turn.  

The bunny classes really are cute.

Cheryl

Ward Hill is in Shrewsbury, Ma. on Main St. near the Northboro line. Not very
far from Dean Park.

A one hour lesson with rentals is $17.00 for children.

A one hour lesson, rentals and lift ticket is $25.00

There's are morning lessons I believe around 9:00 am., 10:30 am., noon 
and an evening lesson at 7:30 PM. There maybe an afternoon lesson but 
I didn't pay to much attention to the times.

We've taken Kevin to the 10:30 am lesson on Saturday. We'll probably be 
there again at 10:30 lesson this Saturday. 

Directions -
From Marlboro/Hudson Rte 290 
 Take the Church St. exit. Head towards Northboro center. At the
 center take a right onto Rte 20 north. 
If you live in Marlboro or South of there take Rte 20 north

 Stay on Rte 20 until you come to a fork (Rte 20 goes to the left), there's 
 St. Rose Lima Church and a animal clinic or something on the right.
 Stay straight. About 1/4 mile up you will go by an Agway store with 
 a big rooster out in front. Ward Hill is about a mile or so up on the left. 

From Worcester Rte 290 -
Take the Rte 140 Shrewsbury exit. At Shrewsbury center at the lights take 
 a left. Go through a set of lights. Pass Dean Park. Appx  1 mile on right
 is Ward Hill.

- Pat K.

Re 2 -

We'll most likely be heading to Northern New England, Vermont, New Hampshire,
Maine next year for our ski week. Hopefully, we'll get snow next year like
we have this year since I cannot ski this year,pregnant with number 3.

Re - on putting a child on a ski lift -
In response to what's wrong with putting a 3 year old on a ski lift, there's
plenty(IMO) when that child has never skied. Also, the child is up in the air
on a moving lift with a stranger, even though the person is an instructor.
Once up the top the child is looking down a hill or steep incline and told
to use these things on their feet to go down with no idea on how to control
the skis, speed or direction they are going.  This is not the case with the
other children programs we've looked into.

Re 6 -

I learned to ski at Ward Hill when I was a freshman in college. Went by
myself and didn't tell anyone that I was taking lessons. My boyfriend
(husband now) is an avid skier, so if I wanted to see him during the winter
I thought it would be wise to learn to ski. Now I can ski intermediate
and the majority of expert trails with ease. It would great if the whole
family eventually learns to ski.

- Pat K.

    
    
    
    Maybe I should be more clear.  I did not mean that
    it was alright to put a child on a ski lift or
    anyone for that matter their first time skiing.
    They don't even do that at most ski areas with 
    adults.  I was responding to the fact that alot
    of 3 1/2 year olds ride ski lifts.    No one
    should leave the bunny hill until they have
    learned the basics of how to control their skis.  
    
    I was responding to noter .1 comment of how she
    could not believe that an instructor would put
    a 3 1/2 year old on a lift.
    
    I don't think age matters as much as ability and
    the person's attitude.
    
    Jeanne
       
    
        
    
    
    

	 A short cut to Ward Hill from Rte 290 West:
	
	Take the Church St. Northboro exit, bear left at end of ramp.
	Take your first right onto Crawford st.  Follow to the end.
	Turn right onto West Main St.  Ward Hill is 1/2 mile on your left.

    FWIW:
    
    Keystone, Colorado is renownedd for its childrens' ski school.  I am
    also biased toward WinterPark.  
    
    Our experience is that our 3 yr old isn't interested in skiing unless
    it's with Mom & Dad, in which case she's good for about 2 hours, then
    off for hot chocolate!  AT this point the two hours is all play, I
    should add!
    
    jamd

    I took my 3.5 year old to Sandia Peak (Albuquerque, New Mexico)
    yesterday and he had a good time.  The ski school there was fantastic,
    in my opinion.  They have a seperate area just for the kids with a mini
    tow rope and pommel.  After two runs I went to check on Joshua and he
    was a bit frustrated.  The instructor and the head of the ski school
    spoke with me and told me at this age he just doesn't have the muscle
    maturation to do some things that the other kids could do (duck walk
    and side step up the hill) but that he was doing great.  Due to his
    frustration I asked if it would be best to take him for a while and
    bring him back after lunch.  They didn't have a problem with that,
    which I really appreciated for my own peace of my mind--I didn't want
    to turn Josh off on skiing.  After rest, lunch, and some playing in the
    snow I took Joshua back to class and stood off and watched.  His
    instructor was great!!  She was so patient and knew how to teach the
    kids in their terms ("making a pizza" was snow plowing and "making
    french fries" was bringing the skis together, etc.).  It was DinoDays
    at Sandia and there were all kinds of figures walking around (Dino,
    Smokey Bear, Woodsy owl, etc) as well as snow sculptures, etc.
    I was impressed and although Josh wasn't quite ready I feel like he did
    learn and have a good time.  On the drive home Josh went on and on
    about how he wanted to go skiing again.
    
    BTW, all day lessons with lunch were $36.  W/out lunch $30.  We rented
    his equipment in Abq. and it was $10 for rental.
    
    Pam

Hi,

My recommendation for a ski resort:
-----------------------------------
We went to Bretton Woods this past weekend and took advantage of the 
Nursery there, where Jonathan 8 months spent a few hours while parents
and grandparents enjoyed the slopes. 

Bretton Woods is a very nice family oriented place with 'Hobbit-school' that 
accepts small children age 4 and up. They start in a special area fenced off 
and almost flat, then moving on to the bunny-hill with t-bar lift. This is
still a few years away for us, but I watched the little ones as I was passing
by and they all seemed to have a great time. 

We first went to Bretton Woods 3 years ago, and have been back every year.
This year the rental's and ski school was in a new building of their own instead
of in the lower level of the lodge. They are also planning to build a 
restaurant at the top of the Quad lift to be finnished Summer'93, with a great
view of Mt Washington and Mt Washington Hotel.

My question:
------------

We're going to Sunday River in a few weeks and I wonder if anyone knows, do they
have a nursery there? have you used it, did you like it?


Thanks

Malin

For local (MA) skiing with kids, Wachusett Mountain in Princeton, MA has a
bunny hill and a good amount of beginner trails.  They have a SKI-WEE
program (as well as on-site daycare).

I've never used the SKI-WEE program so I can't vouch for it. My 10-year-old
has taken lessons with the regular ski instructors there and has improved
tremendously in his abilities.

WM is located off Rt 140 in Princeton MA (there are signs along RT 140 once
you get into Princeton).


I've gotten alot of info re: Smugglers Notch, VT.  They advertise as a
family vacation resort with lots of activities for children of all ages.
Again, I can't speak from experience, but if they live up to their
adverstising, they should be great!

~Caryn

Pat,

   I've never been to Ward Hill but if you want something close by and
affordable I would recommend that you try Wachusett mountain next time.

My 3 year old daughter started skiing this winter at Wachusett mountain.
She took lessons from Dad only. He started off taking her on the chair
lift the first day. She is now doing the intermediate slopes at Wachusett
with the rest of the family. It's great that we can all go skiing now.
We go  to Wachusett almost every friday or saturday night.

I would encourage you to take your snow skiing very soon and maybe have
him try the chair lift with you so that he will start getting used to it.
We never used to T bar with any of our kids. I personally find it more
difficult for a kid to learn than a chair lift.

Some TIPS to teach small kids to sky: (this is only based on my experience
with my 3 kids ( 9, 7 and 3 years old).

- Plan on dedicating the entire first day of skiing with your child. 

- Make it fun. Pick a day or night that is not too cold for the child.
  Make sure the child wears proper clothing.

- It's important that the child first learns to stop and slow down. Kids
  can get pretty scared when they start pick up speed and don't know how 
  to slow down. We found that the best way to teach our 3 year old was
  by using a rope aorund her waist. This worked very well. With the rope
  my husband was able to followed her and control her speed as well as
  tell her what to do at the same time.

- And last but not least - take a lot of breaks. Make sure you take plenty
  of snacks with you when going skiing. I don't know why but my kids just
  get very hungry when they go skiing.


So, try Wachusett next time and let me know if your son liked it.

Have fun skiing,


Angela

If you're going to go skiing for an entire week, then I would recommend a 
larger, rather than smaller ski area, such as Sunday River, or Attitash, or
Loon, etc.  If your son enjoys skiing now and is taking lessons he will
probably be able to ski from the top of these mountains next year.  Kids seem
to learn so quickly, and once that base of confidence is built, they just
shoot right up the learning curve!  My daughter Laura is 7 this year, and I
taught her to ski when she was 5.  We tried to put her into lessons (her older
sister had them), but she just hated them.  It really put her off to skiing.
So, I worked with her on the bunny slope, and we picked up a lot of tips from
ski classes that were going on at the same time.  Now, Laura will ski anywhere,
if the slope is especially steep, I'll go first, carving a "trail" for her
to follow.  I am amazed by what she can handle in such a short time.

Also, most mountains have an "easiest" slope (green circle) from the top.
A long run gives kids time to warm up and really practice their skills.  They
can ski a lot more and spend less time freezing on the lifts.

Barb 

    Any inputs on cross-country skiing and kids?
    
    		-John Bishop

    Hi John,
    
    Megann has been on Cross Country skis since she was 3 - this is
    her fourth season.  She has been doing downhill for 2 seasons.
    For downhill skiing, I have always put her in a ski wee program
    (full day that includes morning and afternoon lessons, lunch and
    supervised care when not in lessons).  For cross country I dont
    normally go to touring places where you pay to ski groomed and
    tracked trails so Megann has never had a lesson.  The first two
    years she basically just walked with the skis on but she did
    get a feel for skis and learned a little about keeping them 
    parallel and not leaning back (and hence falling) when going
    downhill.  We only got out twice last year but she was starting
    to learn to really ski more than walk and use her poles.  This
    year we've been out twice and she is basically starting again 
    at the same point she was at the beginning of last year.  
    After seeing how well she is doing with the downhill and how
    slow her progress on Cross countries is I'm seriously considering
    heading out to a pay-to-ski place a couple of times this year
    so she can get some lessons.  I'm convinced that she learns 
    better from someone else other than Mom and I'm tired of feeling
    like a drill sargent every time we go out ("don't lean back", 
    "watch your skis", "use your poles", "one ski at a time", etc).
    
    Despite the fact that she's not really great at it and a little
    slow we have had some wonderful times skiing though and Megann
    is learning a great appreciation for the outdoors and for exercise.
    Having a grandfather whose had serious medical problems related
    to being overweight, smoking and other unhealthy habits she can
    really see the benifit of good health practices and exercise.
    
    She really enjoys getting outdoors in the snow and enjoys the
    cross country skiing but is getting to the point where she's
    frustrated with not being able to do better.  Last year we went
    to Windblown in New Ipswitch (NH) one day when there wasn't
    enough snow on the trail behind our house where we normally
    ski and I found she did much better there on the already
    tracked and groomed trails where she could lead rather than
    follow Mom who was breaking trail.  We will probably go back
    there soon (or maybe Temple) for her to take some lessons.
    
    Not sure what else to tell you.  Any specific questions?
    
    Robyn
    

John,

We're looking at the same problems.  We also ski
off track, which is more difficult than what most
nordic people do.  Certainly tough for our 3 year 
old.

But we have a 700 foot driveway, and we've been
"playing" there on skis.  She likes it, but has
no ability at all yet.  we also cut a track thru
our woods, and Elise enjoys trashing the tracks
with her feet.

We're considering a program at Tenney Mountain
(Southern NH).  They have daycare, so we could
put Sarah there (I have some doubts, and we
could hire a babysitter instead.)

They have a program for 3 year olds, which I think
is a half day.  They basically teach them to ski
and play games.  Elise is just 3, so it may be too
much for her.  I don't know.

But then, right across the street is a mountain
road we could climb up and ski down; I forget the
mountain name, there's a state park.  It would
take about a half day.  Tenney also has a cross-
country mountain next to the downhill mountain,
so we could also ski there.

Maybe this would work for you...

Pat

    I've been wondering if snow shoes might be more fun and manageable for
    wee ones. Any thoughts?
    

Hi,

I browsed through the notes in this topic and could not
see any references or recommendation about equipment.

Jonathan is 2.5 and has never been on skis but he loves snow
and the outside. He will be spending 1 week in NH with grand
parents and his babysitter (all 3 of them down hill skiers).

I'd like to give Jonathan a chance to try skiing as well, 
since they will be spending a whole week. 

I called 1 store yesterday and found there seems to be two 
types of skis for children

a) type that attaches to a regular boot (~ $48)
b) type that requires the special ski boot and skiis 
   (~$150 ski package + ~$60 for boots)

I'd like to hear from anyone who has some experience in this
area. I do not want his skiing experience to be marked by
type (a) skiis that keep falling off and getting in his way,
on the other hand would he be able to benefit from real skiis
at such a young age? 


Thanks a lot

/Malin

    I've never tried type of skis that attach to a regular
    boot.  I opted to put my daughter in real ski equipment 
    because though it is more expensive, it seems much safer.  
    Also, being a skiier myself, I know the value of having 
    good equipment that fits well.  Learning to ski can be 
    frustrating enough without adding equipment problems.
    
    If you live near Worcester, try Strands.  They sell used
    skis and boots for children and I have had success getting
    my daughter equipped for under $100.  Since kids outgrow
    stuff so quickly you can get used equipment that is in new
    or almost new condition and its more econmical.  I bought
    my daughter ski and boots last season.  This season I kept
    the same ski but replaced the boot for and they did the
    binding adjustment for no cost. 
   
    Another option would be to rent equipment.  At many ski
    areas the difference in cost for ski school (ski wee)
    with and without rentals is not much.  I opted for 
    buying again for safety (my daughter's only ski injury
    was on a rental ski with a binding set too tight) and
    because it means less time spent at either end of the day
    to get and return rentals.  Also, her own skis tend to
    be in better shape and tuned better than most rentals
    (and she's gotten good enough to notice the difference).

    
    Robyn
    
    

    
    re. .21
    
    Few things came to my mind.
    
    One - 2.5 is a bit too young for downhill skiing. I started
    my daughter at 3.5 and she was just ready to be pulled around 
    in her skis. Kids are not physically ready to do real skiing
    until around 5 years old.
    
    Two - Basically at that age, you just want them to get used to 
    sliding down the really bunny hill (a real beginning slope) with you, 
    ie. you are holding the kid between your legs or you use a harness-like 
    tether around their waist. Their legs are not strong enough to use the 
    edges to stop, so they can't be sliding around unattached. At this age
    the only way they can stop is to fall down, this is dangerous when there
    are other beginners around, since other people don't know how to stop very 
    well either. So, please don't let your kid slide down unattached. Don't bother 
    with the real stuff, the equipment is too heavy and clumsy for such a young 
    child. Unless you are going to bring him on a regular basis, it is not worth 
    the money and the frustration (even at 3.5, my daughter couldn't get up by 
    herself when she fell). I have seen plenty of children having a blast
    on the kid (not the real stuff) skis, they should be fine.
    
    Three - Use a ski helmet. Buy one if he is going to do it a lot,
    or rent one at the slopes (call ahead to reserve it). 
    
    Four - I find the one piece suit the best ski outfit. The bibs are
    ok, but snow still gets up the jacket when they fall and slide.
    
    Have fun.
    
    Eva

	We're going to Attitash in February, and the daycare there
	will take kids older than 3 outside to try skiing.  I don't
	know if the age limit is based on what is practical or if
	it has to do with liability.

	We've toyed with the idea of letting my 2.5 year old try,
	using rentals.  We'll play it by ear.

	However, I would DEFINITELY opt for rentals.  Kids at this
	age can be quite unpredictable.  When my brother was 4, my
	parents had him try skiing, and after taking two steps in
	his boots, wouldn't even let them put the skis on him.  At
	least with rentals, if your child isn't interested, you haven't
	spent a lot of money (kids grow fast, so you can't assume they
	can use the same equipment next year).

	Karen

    
    re. 21
    
    Just to clarify, for a older child, 4 and up, who plan to learn 
    to ski, then having his/her own equipment is the better way to go.
    
    From 4 thru 6 or so, used equipment is the best deal, since they
    still grow fast. From 7 on, buy the best new boots you can afford,
    like 1/2 size big, that'll last 2 seasons. When the kid can start
    to do some real expert trails in the big mountains, then you can
    get into racing equipment and such. You can always trade-in the old
    stuff at the ski shop. 
    
    My daughter started at 3.5 and by 9, this winter she can go down the
    some of the toughest trails in the N.E., not gracefully, but safely. So, 
    it doesn't take long for kids to get good at things.
    
    Eva

Both of my nephews started skiing when they were three, using regular skis and
ski boots.  

Brian loved it and went a bunch of times that year, mostly to a
small local ski area.  He was totally out-of-control though and had no 
interest in learning how to turn or slow down.  He'd head himself straight 
down the hill and laugh hysterically as he flew down it, knowing full well
that we'd catch him at the bottom.  The next year he was ready to start 
learning how to control himself and now, at age 7, he skis really well
and follows his dad just about anywhere.

Neil, on the other hand, didn't do so well.  On his first day out, after some 
runs on the bunny hill and a couple of successful trips down the beginner 
slopes, he fell and broke his leg.  He was in a cast for the rest of the
season. :-(   So far, he hasn't been this year.  I'm not sure if he's
willing to try again or not.

I think if it were my 2.5 year old, I'd probably wait another year or two
unless *he* was really showing an interest and asking to do it.  He might
be just as happy just playing in the snow or sliding on sleds.

						Tracy

Thanks to all

who answered my reply in .21 and gave their advice and shared 
experiences on young children skiing and childrens equipment.

I did find a pair of used skii's and boots at Strands.
Thanks for the pointer, I did not know of this place before.

When I got home with the skis yesterday afternoon Jonathan spend
a long time trying on the boots and the skiis, walking carefully 
around on the family room carpet. 

(When he got the boots & skis on he expectantly looked around
for the poles. It took a bit of persuasion and explanation
to make clear that poles would be a thing of the future.)

So far so good. But where can I find a helmet??


Thanks
/Malin

    
    re. 27
    
    Helmets can be bought at ski shops. They come in S, M and L.
    Some ski areas have helmets for rental. The helmets are good
    for sledding too. With a helmet, the kid will not need a hat
    for warmth. A few years ago, kids didn't want to wear helmets,
    but now the helmets come in all sorts of wild colors, kids
    actually think it is cool to wear them. New ones run for about 
    $60 and up.
    
    
    Eva

    Just to refresh this note with a cross country flavor...
    
    Has anyone ever used the bindings that attach to their regular boots
    for 3 & 4 year olds.
    
    Thanks,

    Two years ago, I found some really inexpensive, wide, red skis at JR's
    in Nashua.  The kids can use their own boots, and tie them to the skis. 
    This just worked "OK".  About the best thing they were good for was to
    get your child used to walking on skis.  The ties weren't that sturdy. 
    So, everytime the snow got too deep, the skis came off.
    
    Last year, I found a better quality ski at Rugged Bear, that also tied 
    to the child's boots.  These stayed on better, and my son was actually
    able to ski down the bunny hill at Temple with them (although they were
    mostly used to play around in the back yard).  The problem with these
    second pair was that the screw that kept the binding to the boot came
    out twice.  We brought them back, and had no trouble trading them. The 
    screw came out on the second pair as well.  This could probably have
    been tightened, but the season was nearly over, so we gave up on them.
    
    This year, we found some used "real skis and boots" in the Classified
    Ads notes conference.  These are GREAT.  My son does so much better
    with them.  He's been to Temple two times.  Both times, my husband had
    to tell him when to quit, because he was having so much fun -- but
    didn't realize his legs were turning into jelly (side note... did you
    know you can ski the bunny hill at Temple at no cost?).
    
    My conclusion?  For the first two years, when my son was 2 and 3, the
    less expensive skis were all he really needed.  He wasn't ready to
    "really ski", and they were enough to introduce him to the idea.  But,
    now that he's old enough to start to learn right, the real skis are so
    much better.
    
    Peggy