Conference moira::parenting

    I have to agree with you.
    
    We have always told Alicia that she must try everything that we are
    having for dinner.  This has always worked well.  If she does not like
    something she does not have to eat it.
    
    Some of the food she likes are: broccoli, carrots, any type of beans,
    chicken, steak.
    Some of the foods she does not like: spinach, pork, and turkey.
    
    Alicia has always seemed to eat more during the morning and at lunch
    time but does not have an appetite at dinner so she regularly declines
    dinner.  This definately makes for a peaceful dinner time.  
    
    I dont worry about her nutrition.  When she is hungry she will eat
    healthy food.  She prefers fruit over cookies.
    
    I do have to watch however when she goes on an all day eating binge, I
    can be assured that she will be sick soon (i.e, cold, flu, ear
    infection).  Her body seems to want to "gear-up" before an illness.
    
    Angie   

    We pretty much follow the same rules, or lack of rules.  The only
    difference is that now that Steven is old enough to be helpful
    around the kitchen, if he doesn't want to eat what the cook has
    spent the time preparing, he has to fix his own nutritionally
    equivalent meal.  
    
    So far, they're all as healthy as the proverbial horse. . . 
    
    --bonnie

    Timely note...there are times when I review what the kids have had for
    meals during the week and wonder if they have had enough of certain
    items (usually vegetables).  I am a big veggie eater, my kids are big
    on fruit.  I figure they are getting plenty of vitamins as we have had
    no ill effects from their diets.  We too ask that they try new things. 
    We also tell them if they don't want to eat, we will accept that but
    any eating after dinner will be a fruit or yogurt or something along
    those lines...no cookies, cake, ice cream, etc.  It works for our
    family and we have never had stressful dinners.
    
    I do remember when my oldest was almost 2.  We couldn't get him to eat
    dinner, so I told him if he didn't he would go to bed for the night. 
    After the words hung thre in the air, I thought they were too harsh.  I
    had to remain constant with him, so we sent him to bed.  He laid on his
    bed and cried.  He was soo hungry.  I felt so bad that I brought him a
    bowl of Cheerios and helped him eat the whole thing.  Right after that
    he said "Now I can go to bed, mom"!  I felt so bad, but he was right. 
    I have been much more careful about quick tempered "or else" threats!
    And I also decided then to change dinner time into a good experience.
    
    -sandy
    

    Do you all do consulting? :-)
    
    How do you get a kid to even *try* stuff?  I've tried to get James
    to try things and he absolutely refuses.  This was the sole and
    only rule about mealtime that I hoped to enforce, and so far it's
    been a total failure.
    
    I have given up.  The pediatrician has told me repeatedly that if
    James isn't hungry for dinner, let it go, but don't give him anything
    to eat till the next morning.  He said James would only do this a few
    times and after going to bed hungry for a few nights, he'd gladly
    start eating dinner.  THIS HAS NEVER WORKED ONCE.  THIS IS THE 
    BIGGEST CROCK OF BS I EVER HEARD.  James will go without dinner for
    days on end.  It makes no difference to him whatsoever.  
    
    So I say, the hell with it.  

    Eric (4 yr) is a good eater but he is very picky.  He likes broccoli,
    carrots but hates beans.  He likes steak but won't take ground meats.
    Monica (2 yr) loves almost all the veggies but no meat.   I used to
    wish that I can just prepare a simple meal and satisfy every member
    in the household.  I had given up that thought a long time ago.  Now
    I make sure every meal includes something they will like/eat.  This
    takes some extra planning everyday.  Thank GOD that I don't have a
    picky husband.  Coming up a dinner menu, which is nutritious,
    quick and easy to make and also satisfy everyone's appetite, is so
    far my most challenging daily task.
    
    Wendy

    I agree with your mealtime strategy.  I can't help but think that those
    parents that advocate forcing their children to eat what the parent
    does look at their children as if the child is an extension of
    themselves and don't give enough thought to the fact that they are
    little individuals with their very own likes and dislikes.
    
    On the other hand, I would not advocate making totally sepparate meals
    just to please each child. As another noter indicated, I would try to
    plan something in the meal each child liked and go with that.
    
    My two year old twin girls are very much into feeding themselves, this
    is a VERY trying time for Dad, who in all other situations has the
    patience of Job, but has zilch for this activity.  He is trying
    however.  My attitude is, lay down a shower curtain in the middle of
    the kitchen floor, cover them up as well as I can and let them go for
    it.  Practice makes perfect.
    
    

    re:.4

    The main point in my base note was that we *did not* try to get Marc to
    try stuff - we only prepared what he liked (a very small selection for
    2+ years). These items were basics (pizza, etc) and my memory is a
    little foggy on how we reached this point - but it was when he was much
    younger, just getting to handle real solid food, and he really didn't
    express his opinion on likes/dislikes, we just looked at the plate and
    decided if we could serve it to him again.

    When he got older, we did talk about how good the food was that we were
    having, great recipe from Nana, etc. This was done more than if we were
    alone, just to let him know that we enjoyed the food.

    IMHO, your Doctor's advice is right on (except what he thought the
    results would be). If James can survive without dinner - what the heck!
    Some of us don't need as much. I'm sure you don't have any concerns
    about his health/weight etc, same as us - so let it go (as you have
    already decided)! 

    This is what I wanted to avoid - making Marc conform to expectations
    based on what we were having. One of my grounding philosophies in
    raising this kid is to treat him as a whole person -- to do to him only
    that which I would want done to me. I sure wouldn't enjoy someone
    telling me what I had to do concerning eating.

    My hope was that he would naturally, on his own, move to experiment
    with what we were eating. And it worked! (of course, your mileage may
    vary)

    I do have a definite zeal when it comes to this topic :').
    JR

    
    >>> My two year old twin girls are very much into feeding themselves
    >>> ... lay down a shower curtain in the middle of
    >>> the kitchen floor, cover them up as well as I can and let them go for
    >>> it.  Practice makes perfect.
    
    My 2-yr old will have no part of the highchair ... no boosters either.
    She wants to sit (she has to kneel) on a chair at the regular 
    dining table and feed  herself like her big sister (4+) does. One of
    the messiest and constant things in our diet is yogurt (ends every
    meal). To protect the chair upholstery and keep things easily cleanable, I 
    have: 
    
    1. A bath towel on the seat of her chair.
    2. A pillowcase slided down the back of her chair.
    3. Cut up about 4-5 of my husbands old shirts and use them as overalls
       for her.  They cover her all the way to her ankles ... and she looks
       cute !! 
    
    
    Pam
    	

    I disagree with the doctor that said, "Let him go to bed hungry and 
    he'll learn to eat supper the next time."  Up to a certain age,
    children just don't make the connection between hunger and eating. 
    They don't realize that the way to stop the discomfort of hunger pangs
    in their stomach is to eat.  That logic is just too complex for, say, 
    a toddler.  
    
    We let our toddler tell us if he doesn't like something, and we don't 
    force him to eat it.  However, I set limits for the sake of my own
    sanity.  We give him 3 tries to find something he wants to eat.  The 
    first thing I serve him is what we are having (so there's no extra
    effort for me involved, since I was going to cook it anyway).  If he 
    rejects that, then I find something else simple to serve him (I'll 
    scramble an egg or open a can of soup or something).  If he rejects that, 
    then my third attempt is toast or crackers.  Not nutricious, but these are
    the only things he will always eat.  Many's the time he has had just toast 
    or crackers for a meal.   
    
        

    I know that this is very trying...but you have got to hang in there. 
    On workday nights, I try to make meals with at least one thing that
    everyone likes.  My husband also will eat anything.  If I make a meat,
    vegetable and some kind of starch.  If my oldest (6) says he dosen't
    want the vegetables, I say fine eat your meat and potatoes.  If the
    youngest doesn't want meat, he might only eat the potatoes.  
    
    I asked my pedi about it when my oldest was young.  He said the same as
    yours...they will eat when they are hungry.  I also found that trying
    to introduce to many new foods didn't work well.  If I find one thing
    that works well like macroni and cheese ...then we serve that and try
    to keep some handy for nights when the youngest (2) won't eat anything.  
    
    I think as my children have gotten older it has gotten a little easier. 
    Yesterday we were at my in-laws for dinner and my oldest even tried
    Spanish rice.  
    
    WE NOW LIVE BY A NEW RULE IN OUR HOUSE (it started about six months
    ago)
    
    YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST TASTE THE NEW FOOD...IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN YOU
    DON'T HAVE TO FINISH IT.
    
    Just try to be patient.  Their eating habits go up and down. Some days
    both of the children will eat everything and the next day nothing. 
    Just let it go and concertate on tomorrows meals.
    
    Hope it helps..
    
    Lillian
    

    I also had these issues with my now 5 year old son and I agree
    these were stressful times.  I pretty much let him eat what he
    wanted at the time but then I noticed a decrease in the eating
    and more of Mom will let me do what I want when I want it.  So I
    incorporated an eating / learning program.  When he said he was
    done eating and I looked at his plate and realized that he had
    only taken about 3 bites I would proceed in separating a couple
    pieces of each item (not totaling more than 5) and would then state
    that he would be done after 5 bites.  Since at the time he was only
    2 ish he really didn't know what or how much 5 was so he would
    ask me to put up my fingers and each time he took a bite a finger
    would go down.  Some bites would be so small that only 1/2 the
    finger would go down.
    
    There are many ways you can utilize this but I will say it WORKED
    WONDERS WITH ME and to this day there are occassions that it is
    implemented.
    
    Wishing you all the best with this issue.
    
    Diane

    Moderators, please feel free to move this note, this is the closest
    note exisiting that pertains to my question.
    
    When did your children start eating food with utensils?  My daughter
    has been self feeding (by hand) and I have no idea when we should
    introduce a spoon or fork.  We have tried a few times, but she 
    seems more interested in playing with the spoon, and loses interest
    in her food.  Are we too late, or too early (13 mos)?
    
    jc

Hi,

We've let Jonathan have a fork of his own for a while (I dont exactly remember
when we started but it was at least a month or two before he was 1 year old). 

I always serve something that can be picked up by sticking the fork into it, (or
eaten easily with fingers) like small pieces of bread, cheese, veggies or fruit. 

At first I stuck a piece of bread on the fork and handed it to him and he
learned to feed himself from the fork. After a while he had the fork the whole
time and I just guided it towards a piece and helped along.
By now he can use all the fork by himself. I have just recently started to
give him a spoon, its much harder for him to eat with a spoon I think cause the
food keeps "falling off". 


/Malin

My kids have used a fork since they were around a year old.  That mostly
means they have had the fork and know how to use it, but that doesn't 
necessarily mean they use it consistently.  They're 28 months old now,
and Jessica is fairly consistent with using her fork to eat, but she
still eats a lot of food with her hands.  Brad is more fascinated with
the fork, and tends to have the fork in one hand and eat with the other.
It's kind of comical to watch him pick up his food with his hands, stick
it on his fork, and then put the food on the fork in his mouth. We're
not very pushy about using utensils as I figure they'll get more 
consistent with time, and I'm more interested in having them eat than
in how they do it right now.

I agree with the previous noter that a fork is easier to use than a spoon.
The Early Intervention (EIP) folks suggested that we give them things that
will stick to the spoon to encourage eating with a spoon.  Some foods that 
fall into that category are ice cream, pudding, and hot cereal.

I did find it interesting, though, that the folks at EIP asked about eating
with a spoon before eating with a fork at my kids' evaluations for 
cognitive development.

Cathy

	Emily started using utensils at 14 months.  I think she was
	ready sooner, but I didn't offer them (except to load the spoon
	for her, then let her put it in her mouth herself).

	She started with yogurt and a spoon, and had no problems.  If it's
	a food she can't seem to get on the spoon well, she'll do what
	Cathy's son does - she'll grab a fistful of food and place it on
	the spoon, then will put the spoon in her mouth.

	I've just started giving her a fork to use.  She doesn't seem to
	do much better with the fork than the spoon, but I'll offer it
	if the food lends itself to stabbing ;-)

	Most nights, Emily gets only about half the food in her mouth, so
	after she's finished eating, I take the bowl and utensils away
	and typically offer her some cut up fruit or something she can
	eat with her hands, just to ensure she's eaten enough.

	Karen

    
    	Spencer was pretty much spoon fed by me until about 17 months, he
    just had no desire to eat by himslef and I did not object as it was
    less to clean up. When he started daycare at 18 months, they did not
    feed him and he had to fend for himself. He learned fast (it's amazing
    how you can learn if you are hungry and food is the reward). Now uses
    utensils rather routinely unless he finds he can eat it faster with his
    hands.
    
    				Wendy

    To encourage use with a spoon, use a small deep bowl, not a wide
    shallow one.  I use the small (maybe a 1/2 cup) tupperware or
    rubbermaid continers.
    
    This way, when they push the spoon, the food has a better chance of
    staying on it and they have a good chance of getting the food, since it
    isn't just getting pushed around the bowl.
    
    I read this somewhere, and it seems to work for us.  My daughter has
    yogurt for lunch everyday--since she was probably 18 months or so.  
    And she has to feed herself at her daycare.
    
    judy  

    We've started out with the spoon and are now working on the fork.
    
    Sarah (16.5 mos) started out by grabbing the spoon from me while I was
    feeding her and tryin to feed herself.  Eventually we just put her yogurt
    into a wide bowl and let her at it (around 13 months) and she's been
    doing great.  I've got to agree with the others, occassionally she'll
    pick up the food with her hand and put it on the spoon before it makes
    it into her mouth.   The fork is proving a little harder.  She still
    tries to scoop food onto it and when it doesn't work she'll hand place.
    
    It's really nice to be able to give her her food and let her at it. 
    Opens up a lot of new variety, too (since I don't have to sit there and
    feed her and can do other things in the kitchen while she eats).
    
    Susan

    This is a good one....I have an 8 year old who still prefers to use his
    fingers!  We gave our boys forks/spoons as soon as they were sitting at
    the high chair.  If we were spoon feeding them, they would play with
    the utensil, as they began to get piece foods, they would sometimes
    pick it up with a utensil (they learn by watching you, too).  Now they
    both prefer to use fingers (except for mashed potatoes, thankfully).
    
    We had a foster baby who preferred to use his right hand to hold the
    sppn and his left to feed himself the oatmeal.  Occaisionally the right
    would scoop the oatmeal and wash his hair with it.  Obviously, it was
    something in the genes!! 8^)
    
    -sandy
                                

	Sandy,

	I know when Emily is pretty much done when she starts rubbing
	her toast on her face, or putting her pasta in her hair.

	In fact, I adapted one of Raffi's songs "There's a spider on the
	floor" to "I've got Pasta in my hair (on my face, on my nose)".

	Last week, I let Emily feed herself spaghetti, as I had to go out
	right after dinner.  That left Daddy to clean up - he said it
	took an hour!  We had to make a deal that unless both parents
	are there (one to clean the baby, one to clean the kitchen), Emily
	would get finger food for dinner (ie. a toasted cheese sandwich).

	Karen

    Thanks!  I don't feel soo bad anymore.  :-)  
    
    It's just trial and error!  (and lots of food everywhere, I knew
    this would not be easy..)  ;-)
    
    jc

    re .21, "food everywhere"
    
    I've noticed recently that instead of having to mop up after 
    every meal my (just) two-year-old eats, I now only have to wipe
    the table and chair--so there is progress!  The four-year-old
    isn't much messier than I am, though he will still sometimes 
    hold something in his hand so he can stick a fork in it and
    then transfer it to his mouth on the fork.  The four-year-old
    is learning the use of a (blunt) knife, but chopsticks are 
    still to come.
    
    re spaghetti
    
    We put a bib on the two-year-old for tomato-sauce stuff like
    spaghetti.  It's one of those bibs with a pocket at the 
    bottom, and it really works to keep stuff off the floor and
    clothes.  
    
    			-John Bishop

Sarah is ten months old - I automatically put a toddler
spoon or fork on her tray at every meal.  She mostly just
waves it around, but has been studying our technique.  She 
knows what it's for, and will often drop hers to grab the 
one we're feeding her with.  (If we're helping her out 
that night).

Elise learned to use a spoon at about 12-13 months, using
yogurt. (Our daycare person suggested it, saying that if they
get the spoon/fork anywhere near the yogurt and then anywhere
near their mouth, they will get the reward, so it encourages
them to try.  Worked for us.)

I found that toddler spoons/forks work the best.  The long handled
rubber-coated infant spoons are too long for babies to manage, and
adult spoons are too big for their mouths.  I found toddler
utensils made by Gerber at a Mom&Pop drug store.


About mopping up the floor after meals - we find the "dog"
method works very nicely, thank you.  Haven't ever had to clean
the floor after meals....

Pat

    Re: Dog
    
    Hey, that is a good idea!  :-)  We've got two Goldens who
    would love to come in and clean up!  
    
    jc

    
    
    	I think I have the only dog in the world who (much to our dismay)
    hates Cheerios and refuses to eat them. Apparently he likes to hear
    that oh so subtle crunch when one of us steps on those elusive from the
    broom bits.
    
    				Wendy

	Pat,

	Alas, this doesn't work well for Pastina (our dog just can't
	seem to get them off the floor).  Works quite well for most
	everything else, though.  She even tries to clean off the
	high chair (and Emily's lap, if Emily's in the chair).

Clearly, you guys don't have a Rhodesian Ridgeback.  He
lives to rid the world of organic matter.

I'm convinced he has only two brain cells, which 
means there is one synapse.  This synapse has two possible states:

positive - "I have to pee, let me out" (which is
a lie.  He really means "I need to eat something so let me
out in the yard where I'm sure I can find something disgusting.")

negative - "I'm hungry, feed me."  This is the default state.


He is extremely willing to clean Sarah off too, after she
has a "learning session".  She loves it when he licks her
face.  So far, I've not let him go too far, but I tell you,
on some exceptionally harried mornings, I've been very
tempted to just plunk her down and let him clean her up. :-)

Pat

    
    				:^)
    
    
    				

My secret for teaching the kids how to eat with utensils was 
mixing their food with mashed potatoes!  I found that most other 
meats and vegetables stuck to them, and they, in turn,  stuck to 
the spoon. (Both of my kids had the habit of turning the spoon 
upside down as itapproached the mouth, so this second attribute
was very important!) 

I usually made a batch that would last a few days in the fridge 
and zap them in the micro.  I will also confess to keeping a box of 
instant on hand for emergencies....
    
They loved it!  It gave them some success in handling the utensils
and also got them to eat some things they may have resisted intitially
had they been introduced on their own.

Norma

    What a great idea, Norma!
    We haven't had mashed in a long time and Charlotte loves potatoes.
    
    Monica

	Yup, and Emily will eat things combined with mashed potatoes
	that she might not eat otherwise, namely, meat.

	(I'm not hiding it on her, I just give her shepherd's pie!)

	Karen

    This is a loooong gap since replies,but that's what happens when you've
    been "out of circulation" for several months...
    
    I love the part about let the dog do the cleanup!  Oh we let the catS 
    do our cleanup, even now when AJ is the ripe old age of 7!  Barney, our
    17 pound siamese, bottomless pit eats anything, and all of it at that!
    
    Seriously, just a quick question.  Last night I had cooked stir fry 
    chicken and veggies, and stir fry rice for dinner.  I automatically
    gave him a spoon along with his fork.  Is this OK?  Things as small
    as rice kernals are hard for adults, and he does relatively all right
    with a fork, but I guess I'm just trying to cut down on the mess, or
    BARNEY food am I doing right by him?
    
    Along with that, at what age do we try the knife cutting education.
    He does try, but I just sit there almost literally holding my breath
    as he does it.  What the learning technique, and at what age?
    
    Lyn

    Lyn
    
    As one who used a spoon for many years, don't worry about it.  The fork
    will come from watching people.  Give AJ both and he will work his way
    over eventually.    
    
    As far as the knife and cutting up food, Carrie now does some cutting,
    but more often wants Frank or I to cut up her meat for her.  she's 8. 
    I don't remember when Lolita decided to start cutting up her own, it's
    been awhile, but there again, I think kids learn from your example.
    
    
    Meg  

Maybe it's that little pond called the Atlantic, but over here (in my 
family) it's rather different.  My 7-year-olds have been using knife
and fork (no spoon) since around 4, and my 5-year-old started even
earlier.  Accidents sometimes happen (no injuries of course), and the
occasional type of food is too hard for a child to cut (that's very
rare), but I don't see any fundamental difficulty for a child of 4 or
5 to use the same cutlery as an adult.  Of course, in Europe (as in
some but not all parts of the U.S.), food is not cut up in advance,
but only as each mouthful is being eaten. 

    I have small knives (hors d'oeuvres knives) that I've let Gina use
    since she was about 2.  She started using them to put margerine on her
    bread and has now progressed to the point where she uses them to cut
    soft things (like eggplant parmesean, veggies, or breads).  
    
    Since she is a vegetarian, we obviously haven't given her meat to cut. 
    But she uses plastic serated knives to cut veggies for salad. 
    
    You could start there and when he gets more experienced, subsititute a
    regular knife and give him foods that are harder to cut.
    
    judy

    
    Geez .... I use a spoon all the time - ESPECIALLY for things like rice.
    I use it because it's easier to eat that particular food with - not
    because there's any problem with my ability to use utensils (at least
    that anyone's told me about (-;)
    
    Chris is almost 9, and once in a while will try to use a knife, but for
    the most part, prefers us to cut his food.  He has a real hard time of
    it by himself, and I never thought of it as a "developmental milestone"
    or anything like that.
    
    Having an English mother, we too learned to cut as you eat, so it's
    always seemed odd to me to cut the whole plate ahead of time.  I'll cut
    some for him, let him eat a few pieces, and then cut some more.  Plus
    it stays hotter that way!  And you learn how to manipulate utensils
    with both hands - something both of my older boys can do (Jonathan's
    only 4 mos (-;)  Cut with the right, eat with the left, cut with the
    right, eat w/ the left, etc.  Until there's nothing to cut, then just
    eat with the right.  
    
    Is it a problem, or just curious?