Conference moira::parenting

    IMHO:  When s/he starts to question the truth!
    
    -sandy
    

    Like I've always said - If they're old enough to ask, they're old
    enough to know.
    
    Lori B.

    Santa does live!  He lives in the hearts of all people who believe in
    the spirit of giving. Ho Ho Ho

I agree with Sandy.  Once he's decided it's a fantasy, there's no 
point in deny it.  In fact, continuing the fantasy in the face of 
open disbelief, IMO, is harmful, and makes you look foolish.  If the 
discovery was traumatic to him -- that is that the fantasy was 
important, or he feels deceived, you may need to deal with that, but 
don't deal with it by lying.  And if it's important that the fantasy 
be maintained for younger siblings, deal with that also.  There's a 
very long discussion of this in the prior versions.

Clay

    Hey!
    
    Some of us still believe in santa and don't want our fantasies ruined. 
    I still get my stocking, darn it, and will until I don't believe
    anymore.  (family tradition)
    
    Seriously, I explain santa as a piece of the magic of the Holidays, and
    since we have multiple age groups in the family, we don't disabuse
    anyone who wants to believe.  The older kids get into "helping" santa
    take care of the younger ones.  (They also get surprises from santa in
    the form of stockings as well.  
    
    Meg

    I like the way my friend handled it with her 8 year old.....
    
    He came to her and said that someone told him there was no Santa
    she said, "What do you believe?"  and he replied, "I think there is"
    and she said, "there is your answer, it's what you believe that
    counts."
    
    She decided that when he is ready to 'really' believe there is
    no Santa (the kind kids think of) he'll have a different reply.
    
    She's not encouraging a fantasy she's just giving him assurance
    in his own beliefs.  He'll have plenty of time to find out the
    truth.  
    
    And who knows...where does all Santa's mail go anyway, if there is
    no Santa???
    
    Kristen
    

Last year, Robbie, who was 7 at the time, told us "My friends told
me there is no Santa, but that the Moms and Dads buy all the presents.
I told them there was no way you guys could buy all that stuff and wrap
it in one night."

That was the end of the discussion, but I am sure it will come up again
this year.  Most of Robbie's friends are the youngest of three or four
kids, whereas he is the oldest of 2.  So they tend to have heard more 
about a *lot* of things than he has.

Rob just lost his first teeth this summer, and the tooth fairy came as
expected.  I know that when he does figure out the truth, he will 
gain much pleasure out of keeping the myth alive for his younger sister.
(I think in his mind he knows or suspects the truth, but his heart won't
quite let him believe it).

Frank

    This is not going to answer your question, but .0 made me think of
    this...

    When I was little, I forget how old, a friend told me, "There's no
    Santa Claus!  You know how I know?  The Easter Bunny told me.......
    There's no Easter Bunny!  You know how I know?  The Great Pumpkin told
    me. ...."  etc.

    What do you mean there is no Santa???   I still get gifts from him
    every year....says so right on the tag...to Linda from Santa....
    looks a little like my moms writing...
    
    I don't believe that there is a little man with a red suit that comes
    down a chimney....but I do believe in the spirit of Christmas...of the
    magic that it holds.  That is what children should be taught anyway.
    The joy of giving and sharing with people that you love.
    
    Linda

    My son is now 7 and he asked last year.  It was one of those in passing
    questions that really wasn't looking for an answer.
    
    However, when the tooth fairy came the first time, she left pixie dust
    on the window sill, the floor and the bed sheet.  He asked if I thought
    the next time she came she could be a little neater!  Hence the TF
    wipes her feet at the window now!
    
    -sandy (who loves child-like fantasies)
    

    Wait Wait Wait,  What is the story behind the creation of Santa Clause. 
    Maybe it has been too long for me to remember, but I would like a
    refresher story so I can explaine it to my son when he asks.
    
    Thanks
    
    
    Virginia

St. Nickolas was Turkish priest/monk in the early Christian church (I think
around the 4th century?).  He was a very charitable person who especially
loved children and gave them many gifts and looked after them.  We visited the
village along the southern Turkish coast where he served.  There is a stature
raised to him there with many children around him.  He is dressed in the 
typical garb of the European "Pere No�l" or "Father Christmas", i.e. a cowled
red monk's robe trimmed in white.  (I think the village was called something
liked St. Elizabeth but this is all from memory and it was a long time ago.)

Actually, in Germnay it is not Santa Claus that brings the gifts but the
"Christkind" or Christ Child.

ccb

    My 12 year old nephew is not about to lose any benefits from admitting
    he doesn't believe in Santa anymore.  Last year he said to me "WIll
    I get less gifts if I don't believe in him?" I smiled, winked at him and
    said "What do you think?".  He replied "I'm not taking any chances, I
    guess he's real." A little mercenary, perhaps, but he has a younger
    brother and sister, so it keeps the fun alive for another year, and we
    get a good laugh out of it. 
    

    I wanted to know the origins of Santa so that when my son realized
    Santa isn't real I can tell him the true story and how the myth came
    about.
    
    
    Virginia

    Virginia, 
    
    There are several different versions of how the story began but I can
    tell you one place would probably carry all of them.  Your local
    library.  Check it out!

re: .11

It is truly ironic that one of the most famous writings on the "real" Santa 
Claus is entitled "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."  I believe it was 
written by a newpaper columnist.

Actually, the historic origins of Santa Claus may be a bit dry for a child 
who's just discovered who Santa really is.  In fact, I wouldn't be suprised 
if there are several versions equally plausible (just as, for example, there 
are differing versions of the Great Flood in many cultures.

You might to compose your own version of who Santa Claus really is.  It's 
tough to talk in metaphors with a child -- I know, because I've tried -- but 
after all, the reason some obscure historical figure has become so ubiquitous 
is that people love the metaphor.

Clay

    I have been to the library.  My son's B-day is Dec 21st.  If you ask
    him when his B-day is he says, " When Santa comes and the trees light
    up."  I don't think he will have a problem understanding the true
    origins of Santa.  He has already dug out his Christmas books and loves
    just looking at the pictures.  He has also reached the stage of
    saying,"I want that".  Kids, ya gotta love em.
    
    Virginia

    You could always show him the movie "Santa Claus is coming to Town".
    That explains alot of the christmas stuff, even though it may not
    be the original story. It is a cute show, and explains alot of
    the little things!!
    
    -Sheila
    

    Re .6, if you want to know where those letters to Santa Claus
    go, try watching the movie, "Miracle on 34th Street!"  It's
    great!
    
    I think that if kids are old enough to ask, they're old enough
    to know.  My sister told her kids that there's no man with a red
    suit and a white beard who comes down chimneys on Christmas Eve.
    But "Santa Claus" is a way of representing love and good will,
    so he lives all year round.  Kind of metaphysical for the younger set,
    but older kids might like the idea. 
    
    

I'm coming to it late, but....

Our story is that our kids have parents, Grammies and Grandpas, Aunts and 
Uncles who love them and who are fortunate enough to be able to buy all the 
gifts they get.  We don't know if there is a Santa or not, but if there is, 
we would rather he take care of the children who aren't as fortunate at 
they, and just in case there isn't, we try to do something to help the less 
fortunate ourselves.

It seems to fly so far.

>>>==>PStJTT

    Pursuant to Note 395 (Christmas trees), can anyone give me any
    tips on taking a 4 year old and a 17-month-old to see Santa
    Claus?  (Other than "Don't," that is.)  What are good times to
    go?  Should I bring along snacks for the older one, a bottle
    for the baby?  What should I do about bathroom emergencies?
    Should I take the older one and leave the baby at home?  If I
    leave the baby at home, is it too babyish to drag the stroller
    along for the older one in case he gets tired of standing?
    How long of a wait should I prepare myself for?  Should I ask
    them if they want to go, or should I just take them?  Thanx!!

    Make sure the kids are happy (fed, changed, whatever) and then stroll
    on by the little Santa set-up.  If they are curious, go in.  If not,
    don't push it.  We did not make it a must do when ours were little.  If
    you make it seems like their idea, they will probably do along with it
    much better - especially the 4 yr old.  The baby may want nothing to do
    with it no how!
    
    Good luck...
    -sandy

    The first year when Steven was only 1 month old, we got there
    during "Santa's lunch"  ...since Steven didn't adapt well to
    the crowds and noise at the mall and SCREAMED, I just bagged
    the idea and went home.
    
    The following year, I decided to stop at McDonald's, pick
    up lunch to go and bring it to the mall.  I made sure we
    got there during Santa's lunch.  We were first in line
    and Steven was happy munching on french fries.
    
    He also ended up being on TV!  Susan Wornick from Ch.5 
    was doing a story on the economy at Natick Mall and Steven
    was the lead in to the story...the little 1 yr old sitting
    on Santa's lap.  
    
    Anyway, my plan worked out well.  He even loved Santa!
    Now, at 3, I can't get him to get any closer than close
    enough to say what he wants and grab the candy cane  8-)
    
    	good luck!  Linda
    

    Gotta be careful around those BIG MONSTERS! ;-) (no aspersion intended
    on Santa)
    
    The other day I took my 2-year old to the shoe store.  The owner's
    daughters were outside dressed as Cookie Monster and Frosty the
    Snowman, promoting the store.
    
    When Ilona saw Cookie Monster approaching across the parking lot, she
    was at first thrilled and fascinated, then terrified.  Both were ok at
    a distance, but too scary up close.
    
    What really caused Ilona panic was when she was alone in the back of
    the store looking in the mirror and Frosty came in the store and headed
    for the back (to use the bathroom I guess).  I could see the thought
    flashing through poor Ilona's mind, "It's is coming to take me away!"
    
    :-)
    
    L

    My little niece asked me this question:
    
    What is Santa's wife's formal name?
    
    Saint Nicholas is Santa Claus' formal name; Santa is a derivative of
    Saint and Claus is a derivative of Nicholas. 
    
    Is she a Saint also?  Does she have a first name?
    
    Mrs Claus?  Mrs. Nicholas?  Frau Nicholas?  Ms. Claus?  Mrs. Nick?
    Santa Clausette?
    
    Anyone have the inside information on this?
    

    What we do on Alex's visits to Santa: Now we get there (Hebert's
    candy mansion in Shrewsbury) 15 minutes before Santa does, so we get 
    to see him come in and cross the room ringing his bell.  We're also
    right up near the front of the line.
    
    What I did WRONG on Alex's first visit: got there midafternoon (long
    line) and all bundled up in velour and snowsuits.  Like an idiot I
    waited too long to recognize that Alex was getting uncomfortably hot,
    and I had nowhere to put our outerwear.  Great picture of Alex
    screaming bloody murder when she finally got to Santa's lap!
    
    Leslie 

Last year Daniel was 14 months old when we took him to see Santa. He was 
no problem at all (lucky us!).

We got to the staged area about half an hour before pictures started. We 
waited outside at Shopper's World in Natick, Ma. It was nice, weather 
wise and "Santa's Reindeer" were in cages for all to watch, so the wait was
not a problem. 

This year, Daniel will be 26 months old and I am preparing for more 
resistance, being older and more aware of things. I have already put out
some Christmas decorations, including Santa, so that he will be used to
seeing him on TV and at home before picture taking time. 

Now to see if my stategy works  :-)
Norma

One suggestion to avoid the long lines:  go to a mall which doesn't get a
lot of business.  In Colorado Springs, Chapel Hills Mall is not nearly as
crowded as the Citadel.  At the Citadel, the line seems typically at least
a half hour long, often an hour or so.  At Chapel Hills, I have often seen
only one child in line, and sometimes no children in line so you can walk 
right in.  

      Carol

    I just remembered, some of the malls have decidedly *seedy* looking
    Santas, so you might want to pay a visit sans child first to check him
    out.  It's very difficult to undo that bad impression!
    
    Leslie

            
    we live in Acton MA...and are 
    looking for suggestions for a place to take 4 year old son
    to see and sit with Santa between now and Christmas. would
    like to avoid malls unless line is exceptionally short.
    
    have had some good experience at some local places where it
    is a little more personal but can't seem to find any this year.
    
    thanks.

    I just wanted to start a topic regarding Santa stories.  In my house
    this is what dominates discussions as Christmas draws near.  My 3 year
    old, Joshua, keeps me in stitches with his thoughts around Santa. 
    Thought I'd share just two of the most recent incidents.
    
    The first happened a few days ago.  Josh was being a little bit onery
    and I reminded him about the song, "You better watch out, better not
    cry, better not pout I'm telling you why--Santa Claus is coming to
    town."  I told him Santa was keeping his eyes out for good boys and
    girls.  Joshua's reply was, "No sir, Mom, Santa's at the MALL!!!"
    Thought I was going to bust a gut laughing.
    
    The next happened today.  We were talking about Santa coming down the
    chimney, leaving gifts, etc.  I asked Josh what he thought we should
    leave for Santa Claus to eat when he came to our house.  Joshua's 
    answer was, "Macaroni and cheese, Mom, cuz' that's Santa's very
    favorite!"  Well, guess macaroni and cheese it is for Santa this year.
    
    
    Just a little 3 year old wisdom!!
    
    Pam

I have friends whose daughters were just at the age where they were questioning
whether Santa was real or not.  The parents decided to have Santa for "at
least one more year" and got more than they bargained for.  They took a pair of 
large boots, sooted the bottoms in the chimney ash, and made footprints leading
from the chimney, across the carpet to the tree and back again.  The girls were
*suitably* impressed the next morning.

Unfortunately they had "proof" of Santa for years to come because the footprints
resisted all attempts at removal, including a professional carpet cleaner!

ccb

	My cousin, who is now married with children, came home from school
	one day visibly upset. His mother asked what was the matter to which
	he replied the bigger kids at school said that there was no real 
	Santa Claus. He looked to his mother for confirmation and she told
	him Santa was real in his heart if he believed. To that he said, "OH
	great, next you'll be telling me there's no Easter Bunny".

	Merry Christmas !
	Chester

My Dad recently died this past September 14th of a massive heart attack. My Dad
took the SERP this past May from Digital. During the summer he watched my two boys
several times for me when my sitter was unable to.  Kevin, my oldest who is 5 years
old was extremely close to his Papa.  

Two weeks ago Kevin asked me, "Can I ask Santa to ask God to bring Papa back?" I 
explained that that was impossible and why. Boy, do I sure wish that it were possible.

Peace to all,

- Pat K.

My Father is Paul Corcoran.  I know there are some Parenting noters who worked with 
him over the years.

    Re: 34
    
    Pat,
    
    I knew and worked with your father and he was a wonderful man.  This 
    time of year can be especially difficult when you have lost a love one.
    And it must be especially hard for a child to understand.
    
    
    Although my father died many years ago, Christmas Day is his birthday,
    so I think of him even more at this time of the year.  I also have 
    a 16 month old daughter and how I wish he could see how beautiful she 
    is.
    
    I wish you Peace in the New Year.
    
    Janet
    
    
    
    
    
     

    Earlier this month, my 5 year old daughter started hounding her father
    to write a letter to Santa.   So they got out the WISH book and
    together wrote a letter to Santa which probably had around 10 or so
    items on it.  When they got throught, she kept saying to mail it to the
    NORTH POLE Daddy, the NORTH POLE.  So we told her we mailed the letter.
    
    Anyway, on Christmas day, she woke up, came and got us (wouldn't go
    out and check what Santa brought her by herself) and just had a
    wonderful time all day playing with the toys that Santa brought her.
    
    Well, yesterday, (After much thought on my daughters part, I guess) she
    asks me:  "Mommy, why didn't Santa bring me the Magic Tea set I asked
    for?".  Well, I stumbled out some excuse about Santa having to visit a
    lot of children in the world and perhaps he ran out.   So she seem to
    think about it and said OK.   Well, later on at the dinner table, she
    says to her father:  "Daddy, why didn't Santa bring me Teddy Ruxpin that
    I asked for?".  Well, for that her father said that just because you
    write a letter to Santa asking for certain toys, doesn't mean that you 
    will actually get them, and perhaps Santa thought she was too old for
    Teddy Ruxpin, or maybe he ran out.  Probably not the best method of 
    worming yourself out of a sticky situation, but the best we could think
    of at the moment.   The funny thing is, we really thought that she had
    been satisfied with what Santa brought for her and she never even
    mentioned it until Sunday.  
    

Our 3 year old also wanted the Magic Tea Set.  I went to every store and 
had friends and relatives on the look-out for it.  It was nowhere to be 
found, and I starting looking the day after Thanksgiving.

Amber had been talking about for about two months, but the last 2 weeks or 
so she hadn't mentioned it.  So, I thought maybe she had forgotten about 
it.

In the middle of opening all her presents, she looked up at me and with 
tears in her eyes and her voice she said, "I told you that Santa wouldn't 
bring me my Magic Tea Party".  I felt like crying myself.  Then she perked 
up and started opening more presents and hasn't mentioned it since.

It always seems like the one thing they really, really want, is the one 
thing the stores don't have!!!!!!!!!!

Phyllis

    My son (age 7) had an item that I figured would be most missed.  I put
    a card under the tree from Santa telling him that the toy shop was
    clean out of that item and that Santa gave mom the money to go to the
    toy store after Christmas to get it.  Well, he didn't see the card and
    never mentioned the item, so I took the card and put it away!  I know,
    I'm a cruel parent, but I saved myself $35!!  Anything less, and I
    would have gone thru with it!
    
    -sandy
    

    
    I was suprised to see what ended up being my sons favorite Christmas
    gift this year.
    
    Michael is 14 mos, so this year he was more into ribbons and tissue
    paper than his gifts, but one gift in particular held his interest for
    hours.  My grandmother is famous for sending away for any "free gifts"
    she finds in ads or newspapers (I've gotten a "cambells soup" ornament
    3 years in a row now!). Well, this year Michael was the recievee of her 
    latest "freebie".  She wrapped up 3 plastic tumblers she had recieved 
    from "green giant" vegtables (with the little guy on the side), and a
    Mickey Mouse spoon. He got tons of toys, cars, books etc...but NONE
    made the impression that the "cups and spoon" made. He walked around
    with those things for HOURS!
    
    It was funny to watch. AFter opening them, he wouldn't touch another
    present!
    
    Chris
    

    
    Some tips:
    
    Only let the child write down a certain number of items on their wish
    list (3-5, etc)
    
    If you cannot find something, leave the child a note from Santa saying
    that it is forthcoming.
    
    Mike

    I feel the need to add to this one, just a little late...
    
    This year on Christmas Eve we visited friends' home, (they are also AJ's
    Godparents) They have a rather large Husky type dog, and as the evening
    progressed AJ and Storm became inseperable friends, I mean AJ's dad was
    fooling around and tickling him at their home, and the dog very gently
    put his mouth on my husband's upper arm, just enough to let him know
    that he was protecting AJ.  
    
    As the evening progressed AJ got the bright idea that Tom and Storm
    would come over and have Storm wake up AJ.  All four of us adults were
    trying to figure out how to get around this plan my son had, without
    upsetting him.  Finally his Godfather sat and wrote a letter to AJ that
    was absolutely heartwarming, it read partially as follows:
    
    Dear AJ, Storm and I came by to wake you up this morning, but we met
    Santa and his reindeer in the driveway.  Santa asked me to please take
    Storm home because he was scaring the reindeer..... Love "uncle Tom".
    
    AJ still treasures this letter, and was not disapointed that the dog
    didn't wake him or Christmas morning.
    
    Similarly, the Sunday before Christmas I took AJ to a Christmas party
    sponsored by a fraternal group I belong to.  One of the members was
    playing Santa.  As we were riding home AJ started insisting that that
    Santa was a "phoney, a fake".  I kept thinking that he was really too
    young to dispell the Santa myth, so I kept insisting that he was one of
    Santa's helpers since Santa was so busy being so close to Christmas.
    
    I asked him how he was so sure that this one was "fake".  AJ said he
    knew because he saw a necktie under his suit!!  Bless this kid, he's
    always got some perfectly logical reason for everything!
    
    Lyn

       re: Santa is a fake...

	I remember, as a child, sitting on Santa's lap in a mall store and
	telling him I didn't believe in Santa because I had seen so many	
	Santa's in other stores and on the streets.  His response was that
	Santa had many brothers and they all looked like him and they went
	to the stores and malls around the world and listened to what the
	kids wanted for Xmas.  Then those brothers went back and delivered
	the requests to the real santa.  Well, he convinced me and I believed
	in Santa much longer than other children my age.  I was probably
	about 10 before I realized that Santa was not real, and that was
	because I found all the Xmas presents in the attic a week before
	Xmas with tags from Santa.  Who knows how much longer I might have
	believed had I not found those presents!

	Karen

I need to re-open this Santa discussion.  When did your kids stop going to 
see Santa?

Last night I was talking with my nephew, Brian (6), before he went to bed and  
I said that I'd take him and his brother to see Santa this weekend.  He 
asked me if I thought that he was too old to sit on Santa's lap.  I said that 
I didn't think so, but that it was up to him to decide whether he wanted to
or not.

I don't think that believing in Santa is the issue here -- I'm pretty
sure he still believes.  He really sounded like he *wants* to do it, but
thinks that he's too old to do it and that he would look silly.  I never 
thought that this would happen so soon!

                                                Tracy

    
    Maybe he's feeling he's too big (old) to sit in someones lap (like a
    baby/toddler). Bring the subject up again and suggest that he can stand
    next to Santa instead of sitting in his lap. I remember the last time I
    visited Santa (before learning the whole story) both my older sister
    and I stood on each side of Santa instead of sitting in his lap.
    
    Patty

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the "Yes, Virginia, there IS a
Santa Claus" article?

A quick WWW search finds this at
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~pausch/misc/santa.html

Text of "Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus"

Dear Editor,

I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say that there is no Santa
Claus. Papa says "If you see it in the Sun, it is so." Please tell me the
truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia,

Your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of
a skeptical age. They do not believe except what they see. They think that
nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds.

All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In
this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect,
as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the
intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and
generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to our
life its highest beauty and joy.

Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would
be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike
faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We
should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with
which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus? You might as well not believe in fairies! You
might get your Papa to hire men to watch all the chimneys on Christmas Eve
to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down,
what would that prove?

Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus
The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men
can see.

Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no
proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the
wonders that are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but
there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, or
even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could
tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that
curtain and view and picture the supernatural beauty and glory beyond.

Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else as
real and abiding.

No Santa Claus? Thank God he lives and he lives forever. A thousand years
from now, maybe 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make
glad the hearts of children.

Written by Francis P. Church in 1897

Hi!

How come they have to grow up?!??  )-:  As you've probably read, there's (off 
and on) 5 kids in our household.  As follows; Christopher-10, Amanda-9, 
Jason-7, Greg-4, Jonathan-2.  *ALL* of them believed in Santa Claus, or at 
least have never let on that they don't.

Until this past weekend.  Amanda was going back to her mom's house, and asked 
her dad if there really was a Santa Claus.  He asked her why she was asking, 
and what she thought, and she said that she did believe, but some boys at
school were teasing her, saying that there was no santa, and she was a baby to 
believe it, and that now she was confused.  So, when they got to her mom's 
house, Mom *refused* to take part in the discussion at all, and so Dad told 
Amanda that there is no santa claus, and went on to explain some more of the 
religious aspects of Christmas.  This was totally devastating to this little 
girl.  Her mom has always made a *HUGE* deal about santa, complete with 
pretend sightings, and ringing sleigh bells outside, hoof prints in the snow 
etc.  For Amanda this was a MAJOR tragedy.  Dad spoke with her again later in 
the evening, and it *REALLY* sounds like Amanda wanted to know the truth - but 
she really didn't want to know.

Now comes the more difficult part, in that my 3 have no idea that there is no 
Santa Claus (ie man in a red suit), and this makes Amanda feel even worse, 
because Chris is older than her.  Chris MIGHT know, but he sure as heck isn't 
letting on, if he does.  I don't put a lot of emphasis on Santa, but they do 
get gifts/stockings from him, so it's a little simpler to believe.  And Chris 
can easily play both sides - agreeing that there's not, when he's with his 
friends, and going along with it, at home.  I think it would help Amanda to 
have someone else (kid) to talk to about it, but I don't want to ruin Chris' 
fantasy either.  How can I ask Chris if he believes in Santa, or find out if 
he believes?

And, what do we do about Amanda now??  I'm tempted to sit her down in front of 
"Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus", and "The Santa Claus" a few thousand 
times, till she forgets what Dad and the boys at school told her, and believes
what she wants to believe.  Of course I believed in Santa till I was 12, and 
I'm STILL not totally convinced (thank you, Tim Allen for restoring a childhood 
fantasy!).

What *I* think we should do, is pretend that she never had that conversation 
with her dad.  Go on like there really *IS* a santa, and ignore the fact that 
she knows that there's no man in a red suit.  Period.  She has her "real" 
answer, now let's step back into fantasy, and to heck with reality for a few 
weeks each year (maybe this will require therapy to undo?? (-:).  We have to 
keep up the santa thing for many many years to come - her mother is pregnant 
right now, so Amanda's got at LEAST another 9-10 years of "dealing" with it 
for the younger ones.  (Amanda is the oldest in that family)

So, what do you all think would work best??  Any advice/experiences would be 
most welcome!!

Thanks!
Patty
    

    My husband & I have pretty much decided that if we ever have a 
    child together, we won't do the Santa routine. Of course that 
    has its own set of things to deal with. Like what about our child's
    interaction with other children who do believe in Santa, or grown-ups
    who assume "Santa" visits every family?

    My step-children just seemed to accept it when they found out Santa 
    wasn't real. It didn't seem to matter that much to them, so I don't
    have personal experience as a parent handling how a child grows out of
    the fantasy.

    What I remember as a child is that my Mom told me when I was 7. It was 
    in the middle of the summer nowhere near Christmas time. I found out then
    that Santa, the Easter bunny, & the tooth fairy were all make-believe.
    But my Mom asked me, as the big sister, and to play along with the Santa 
    fantasy for the sake of my younger sisters. It made me feel grown-up and
    proud, and took some of the disappointment and sting out of being 
    disillusioned. So that's one thing I'd suggest trying with Amanda.

    Leslie

    Well......
    
    it seems kids somewhere between 8 and 10 find out about Santa, mine
    have learned not to let on, as there are younger children in the
    family, and I have emphasized the magic of the holidays, and how lovely
    it is to see through the eyes of younger children.  (mom also always
    told us that the day we stopped believing was the day we stopped
    getting stockings, my favorite part of the holiday.)  
    
    I would think I would also not act as if I had heard about the
    conversation, but if she asks, depending on your philosophy, I would
    wax poetic about the magic of the season, and how there is a little
    bit of that magic in all of us.  
    
    FWIW I still get my stocking at my mom's house every christmas, but I
    am the stuffer at mine.
    
    meg

    This string brought to mind a couple of anecdotes regarding belief
    in Santa.
    
    1
    When I was at the age where I had pretty much figured out that Santa
    wasn't real my dad decided to make one last "you gotta believe in
    Santa" attempt.
    It was not unusual for him to have to go service a customer's furnace
    on Christmas Eve, as he believed in giving his employees off.  So
    when he got a call in the evening that he had to go out I didn't think
    anything at all about it.  About a half hour later who should ring the
    doorbell but Santa!  Well, it didn't take too long for me to realize
    it was my dad in disguise, but his costume was so good it was
    impossible to find any obvious clues.  And of course he had a huge bag
    full of presents, and some of them were for me.  About an hour after
    "Santa" left my dad returned home, and my mother made a big deal about
    how he had missed meeting Santa.  I, of course, said I knew it was him
    all along, but he would never admit it, even years later.  The next
    day I found out from other kids in the neighborhood that he had gone
    around to several other houses, giving out gifts.  And all my friends
    thought it was my dad and thought it was pretty neat.
    
    2
    A few years ago our son Tobias (now 9) asked me if Rudolph the
    Red Nosed Reindeer was real.  I don't believe in lying to children,
    although sometimes some healthy misdirection is just as good.  So
    I looked him straight in the eye and said
    "Tobias, he's as real as Santa and his elves and sleigh and all
    the other reindeer."
    
    My son thought for a moment and said
    "But dad, you haven't really answered the question."
    
    

*sigh.  Evan asked a couple of weeks ago whether we were the Tooth Fairy.
Seems a friend of his reading partner had seen her dad being the Tooth Fairy,
so she figured it out and passed it on.  After determining that he really did
want to know, I told him.  We also explained about not telling his 3 year old
brother.

I know that it was only a matter of time before he figured out about Santa.  %-}

We quickly got the kids to Santa in the mall, and bought extra photos because
I was pretty sure this would be the last time that they both believed.
He already believed the mall Santas weren't the real one, and I didn't worry
about that much.  He figured that out a couple of years ago.  I thought he 
would wait until after Christmas, but he asked just a few days after the mall
visit.  

Oh, boy, that was hard.  The beginning of the end of an era.  :-}  We reminded
him of the possibility of the Tooth Fairy not coming once you didn't believe
in her, and hinting that Santa might not bring anything, either, but he really
wanted to know.  Ultimately, we told him.  This time, he had figured it out
on his own, and mulled it over for a couple of days before asking me.  We
stressed that he couldn't tell his brother or his friends, which dismayed him.
We said he could only discuss it with someone who already knew, and who 
brought it up to him.  What helped in all this is that he is exceedingly 
proud of himself that he got the better of us, by figuring out our secret.
He goes around with a cheshire cat grin half the time.  :-}

Of course, he didn't even finish the conversation before saying, "Now, what
other holidays are there...?  I know!  Easter!  Is the Easter Bunny real?"

He's looking forward to helping me hide the eggs.  :-}

         Carol

    
    I was in 3rd grade when I think I figured it out. I don't know how I
    did, but I asked my folks and they told me the truth. All I remember
    about finding out was two things:
    
    		* I really felt grown-up that I was in on the secret with
    		  Mom, Dad, and older sister. And it was fun watching my
    		  younger sisters who still believed.
    
    		* After the excitement of the holidays was over I realized
    		  that the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny weren't real
    		  either and I was devastated! I guess it finally all hit
    		  me.
    
    I'm enjoying the secret of Santa with my kids  now. Anna (at 4 1/2)
    already knows that the mall Santa's are not the real Santa cause he's
    too busy gettting ready for Christmas. The mall Santa's are his
    helpers. She told me this herself last year (at 3 1/2). Though the
    Santa she saw in the parade on Sunday I think she thought was real.
    We'll see what happens when Santa (supplied by Townsend VFW) arrives
    at our house on Christmas Eve with a present.
    
    Patty

    I suppose it all depends upon the child, but I hope to raise my Evan
    the same way I was raised. I never "believed in Santa" in the sense of
    a magical being with the magical ability to deliver whatever I wanted
    and know if I'd been a good girl, etc.
    
    Coincidentally [because my in-laws and my parents have little esle in
    common], neither did Rick.
    
    Lest anyone think we were deprived of some of the magic of childhood --
    we weren't.
    
    I was raised on the stories and legends of Santa [Sinter Klaus, Pere
    Noel, Father Ice, etc.]. Some wonderful stories! And a piece of me was
    encouraged to "believe." I even had presents from Santa under the tree.
    Presents that might have come from my parents or an aunt or a family
    friend -- someone who loved me very much! Because that's what Santa
    really boiled down to ... a lot of love.
    
    Other peoples beliefs about Santa were to be treated with the same
    respect that I accorded to their religious or other cultural beliefs. I
    was free to tell people what I believed, but I would be in big trouble
    if I went out and told other children "this is true, and you're wrong."
    
    In Rick's family, Santa was all about love too. Older children were in
    on the Santa-activity for the younger children. For example, Rick
    stuffed Kit's stocking every year [others were free to contribute, but
    it was part of his job as the "real Santa"] from the time when he was 5
    and she was 2. Whenever we're together at Christmas [not often these
    days] he still does it -- he's now 41 and she's 38.
    
    The Johnston children were also taught that how other families
    approached Santa was a private, personal family thing. That in some
    families only Mom & Dad were the "real" Santa and that they didn't let
    the kids in on it until they were much older -- but it was fun and
    special that way too.
    
    Having watched my little friends agonise over the reality of Santa, I
    always felt fortunate to have known from the start that Santa was very
    real, just not a jolly elf with flying reindeer and a big bag of toys.
    
      Annie