Conference moira::parenting

    Hi,
    
    There are three related notes files:
    
    GRIM::RELIGION		  ! Doesn't get much activity.
    TAVENG::BAGELS		  ! Active.  Jewish point of view.
    LGP30::CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE  ! Active. Christian point of view.
    
    Speaking as a moderator, I have no problem with this discussion here.
    
    L
    
    

You might also try the Unitarian Universalist notesfile, NOTED::UU.

Many mixed-faith parents select UU churches for their children's religious 
education, and to attend themselves.

KP7 to add to your notebook.

Clay

    While we technically aren't an interfaith couple, we are still
    what used to be called a "mixed marriage" (he was raised
    Congregationalist, I was raised Catholic).
    
    My husband has absolutely no time for the Catholic Church.  I
    maintain that, whenever we talk about religion, all faiths
    and beliefs systems should be referred to in respectful terms,
    so that the kids get the idea that the God who loves us all
    doesn't really care what building we worship in, or what day
    off the week we happen to visit that building.
    
    I think the first key for all couples who were raised in 
    different religious traditions is mutual respect, then honest
    discussion of what's really important in terms of the kids'
    ethical/religious upbringing.  For us, it meant simply making
    sure that the kids receive some kind of religious training
    and that we attend church more often than 2 or 3 times a year.
    The fact that they were both christened in the Congregational
    Church is because there's a very nice one right across the
    street from us, where we all feel comfortable and uplifted.
    
    

    Thanks for the pointers to the religion notes files.  I started to take
    a look at them last night and they have a wealth of information and
    viewpoints.  Also, thanks for the replies I received offline.
    
    Apparently, there is some interest in opening this note up for
    discussion, so I'll be more specific about my situation and what I'm
    looking for.
    
    I am Jewish and my husband is Christian.  We have been happily married
    for almost 8 years, and we have two children.  Daniel is 3 years old,
    and Sarah is almost 6 months.
    
    It is very important to both myself and my husband that our children
    have some formal religious training, and that they understand their
    heritage and are proud of it.
    
    I would like to hear from other parents of successful interfaith
    marriages, to find out how they handle their children's religious
    education. 
    
    I realize there is controversy in the topic of interfaith marriage, and I'd 
    like to keep this discussion from getting into the pros and cons of
    interfaith marriages; that topic is covered in detail in the religion
    notes files.
    
    Looking forward to hearing about your experiences.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Sheryl     

    Sheryl,
    
    I have a very good friend who is in an interfaith marriage similar
    to yours (she is of Jewish heritage, he is of some kind of Protestant
    background). They have been thinking about joining a Unitarian church
    so as to have a focal point for their spiritual activity. Their kids
    are 3.5 and 1. 
    
    They observe the major Jewish holidays in addition to the Christian
    ones and try to explain their meaning each time, at a level their
    older child can understand. 
    
    Because neither one of them was religiously active as adults before 
    they had kids, they are evolving their own hybrid blend as they go. 
    They tend to celebrate the Jewish holidays with Jewish friends and 
    Christian holidays with family, (she is herself the child of an 
    interfaith marriage and has always celebrated Christian holidays).
    
    Lucy 

I am a Jewish woman, and my husband was raised in the Congregational
church, although aside from our wedding and that of a friend of ours he
hasn't gone to church for any reason in many years (I would venture to
guess all his adult life).

My husband and I spoke about which religion to raise our children in,
because we both felt it was important to raise them as "something" rather
than as "nothing" (letting them decide for themselves when they get older),
or as both which we felt would be too confusing and would dilute their
spiritual/religious foundation rather than strengthen it.

Our feeling was that it was best to decide on one and go with it.  Since he
didn't feel comfortable (for whatever reason) in leading the children
through a Christian upbringing, we are raising them as Jews.

Although I did not have a religious upbringing in the Jewish faith, my
family is Jewish and my identity is that of being Jewish.  I wanted to
impart that identity to my children.  My grandparents and aunts were always
active in practicing Jewish customs and celebrating Jewish holidays,
however my mother didn't believe in "organized religion" and stopped my and
my sister's religious training early on (age 7 or 8).

My husband, although he has no intentions of converting, participates fully
in celebrations and activities at the temple we are members of.  My older
son, age 10, goes to Hebrew school and I am active in other temple
activities, including being chair of the Outreach Committee whose purpose
is to provide education and programs and support for interfaith families
as well as Jews with little or no background in Judaism.  I have found
this involvement, although it is quite recent, to be enormously helpful in
increasing my comfort level at other temple activities.  Mostly because now
I'm meeting other interfaith couples and finding that I'm not alone in my
situation.

I firmly believe that there are no right or wrong answers to the question
of how to raise children of interfaith marriages, except that consistency
and decisiveness are important.

Feel free to contact me offline (VERGA::STEWART) if you wish.

Best wishes,

Caryn

    The Jewish Constituency Group is planning to offer a program on
    intermarriage and interfaith families.  It will probably occur in the
    December-February timeframe.
    
    If you would like to place your name on this group's 
    distribution list, please send me the following information:
    
    VMSmail address (node_name::userid)
    First name
    Site code
    DTN
    
    Please specify whether you want to be on the master list (get all
    announcements, meeting minutes, status reports) or the CC: list (get
    only major announcements).
    
    The group started in February, 1992, in Littleton, Massachusetts.  It
    has sponsored a number of public education events and support group
    meetings.  Most have occured in Littleton.  A New Hampshire chapter is
    now forming.
    
    Laura

    
    I'd like to reactivate this note...
    
    AJ was baptized as an infant in the Catholic church.  We were also
    married in his family's Catholic Church, as I had moved to his
    hometown, and had yet to establish any church there and there was not
    protestant church (methodist) in the town.
    
    My inlaws are strong CAtholics, mother inlaw especially since she was
    raised in a Catholic boarding school.  (interesting however is that her
    parents were a mixed catholic/protestant family)
    
    As AJ became about 3 I decided to start going to the Methodist Church
    in our new hometown, and took AJ with me.  I decided to leave well
    enough alone and only let hubby know that AJ and I were going to
    church. He could come along, stay home or attend the Catholic church in
    our town.  He did and still does stay home, by choice.
    
    Last fall I enrolled AJ in the Methodist Church Sunday school, and he
    goes on a fairly regular basis, then he attends the regular church
    service with me.  About halfway through the service the kids are
    rounded up and go to "childrens' church" which is in a parlor near the
    sanctuary where the kids color, play religious games, watch apropritate
    videos etc during the sermon, communion etc.  There is also a
    "childrens' time" during the service.  The youngsters go to the first
    couple pews, the minister will do a magic trick, tell a story or some
    thing along a religious theme.  Usualy it has something to do with the
    sermon topic.
    
    I am reaching a brick wall with my husband of late.  I've decided that
    since the Catholic church doesn't even know we exist, to have AJ
    re-baptized in my church.  Which was done last week on his 6th
    birthday.  My husband acts as if he's afraid his mother will find out
    that her grandson is attending "that other" church, and has not told
    her, and further refuses to tell her that he is now actively involved
    in MY church. I'm sure in a couple years she is expecting to be invited
    to a first communion and party.  I stand firmly on the ground there
    will be NO such thing, as long as AJ's religous education comes from my
    church.  Husband won't let me tell MIL this either, he "doesn't want to
    cause a family feud!" 
    
    I maintain that if I am to be in charge of his religous education, then
    it will be done in the way *I* feel comfortable doing it.  I've told my
    husband flat out, that it's not HIS mother who is raising this child!
    But husband tends to side with his mother (IMO sound a little wimpy to me)  
    
    I am not a religous fanatic in any way, just want AJ to have the basics
    in religion while he is still young and impressionable.  Any comments 
    or suggestions on the handling of this?
    
    Lyn

Seems straightforward to me: if your husband wants AJ raised Catholic, then
*he* should raise him Catholic, with all that this entails (take him to
church, enroll him in whatever programs, teach AJ himself, and so on).

Otherwise, you will continue to do it your way.

     Carol

    I agree with Carol. I'm Catholic, my husband is Protestant. I go to
    church, but not every week. When I do Chris, 2 years, likes to come
    with me. I figure, I'll take him to my church, and when he gets older
    he can choose for himself. My husband doesn't attend church, and feels
    if I want to go, Chris is welcome to join me.
    
    I think you are doing fine!
    
    -Sheila
    

Sounds to me like you are handling this wonderfully.  If your husband doesn't
want to tell his mother, then that's his problem, not yours.

I am sorry to hear that silly feuds like this still exist between catholic and
protestant religions.  My personal opinion is that if MIL is really a good 
Catholic, then she should be happy that you are makeing the effort to raise 
her grandson a Christian.  If she's not, then that's her problem.

The important thing is that you're doing what YOU think is right.  Good luck with
hubby and MIL.

- Carol

Hi Lynn,

A tough and delicate situation for you, especially since you and your 
husband don't stand united on the subject.  Sometimes the fear of how
a person will react to some piece of news is worse than how they actually
react.  I hope that ends up being the case with your M-I-L.

Although I think it is changing amongst younger generations, there still 
seems to be a big barrier in the minds of many older folks between
Catholicism and Protestantism, yet the two believe in and worship the 
same God, read the same Bible, practice some of the same sacrements - 
baptism, marriage, communion.  There are plenty of differences, yes, but 
it seems to me that on the more important points there is greater unity than
differences.  Perhaps you can point out some of those likenesses or invite 
her to come with you to your church sometime.  My Grandmother was pretty
upset when my parents (and we children along with them) began going to a
Congregational instead of Lutheran Church.  But after she was convinced
to come with us when she was visiting, her objections diminished greatly.
It may be rough, especially at first.  I do agree with you though, that
she should be told, and given time to adjust.  Over time I hope you're 
able to work things out without any big rifts or rows over it.

The other thing, depending on what your beliefs actually are, is to ask
God for His help in bringing you all together on this subject, softening
the heart of your M-I-L, making your husband stronger as regards to not
being afraid of his mother's reaction.  

Wishing I could offer a better reply ...

Leslie

We're not at all religious but I had cousins in the same situation as yours.
My step daughter is in an even more delicate situation since she is Catholic 
and her husband is a fundamentalist Muslim.  It seems to me that in situations
like this the person who is most concerned is the child and we want to do
right by the child.  If a child comes from two cultural backgrounds (as is
also the case for us), then it is my opinion that the child should learn and
understand both of his cultures.  J�rgen has the responsibility to see that
the boys know and feel part of their German culture and I am responsible for the
American side (and we both try to do our best with the Swiss :-)

It also seems to me (and this is only my opinion) that AJ's father isn't too
interested in raising his son a Catholic but that perhaps the mother in law
is.  So I would try some sort of compromise which would go something like this.
One week AJ goes with his mother to the Methodist church and learns that side.  
The next week he goes with his grandmother to the Catholic church and learns
the other half.  Even better would be if the families could learn to respect
each other's religion and attend the "weekly" church together.  Learning to
understand another's culture does not mean that you have to embrace it
wholeheartedly.  As my stepdaughter said when asked if she was going to convert
to Islam, "I was born a Catholic so I guess I will always be a Catholic but I'll
at least try to understand."

A cultural heritage, whether it be national, religious, moral, linguistic, or 
whatever is just too valuable to give up.

Just mes deux sous.

Cheryl

    We've experienced something similar to the basenoter - however as was
    mentioned in another reply, my husband and I are a UNITED front.  We
    both decided that we wanted something different from the religion of
    our youth and we went in search of a church we could be happy with.  We
    have been very happy with our decision and love our church, but we were 
    apprehensive about letting my in-laws know - they are both devout 
    Catholics.  
    
    When my M-I-L found out that we were attending another church her first 
    comment was "at least you're doing something" and then her next comment 
    was "will Kate (our 4-year-old) still make her First Communion?"  At 
    that time my husband just said he didn't know and that was the end of 
    the conversation at that time.   
    
    A few days before Halloween my husband saw his mother and cousin. 
    Unbeknownst to my husband his mother had been making comments to the 
    cousin about how she was never going to see Kate dressed in white - 
    she was too old to ever see Kate get married and now she'd never see her 
    in a white First Communion dress.  My husband walked into this conversation
    and my M-I-L changed the subject by asking John what Kate was going to be 
    for  Halloween - his response - a bride!  The cousin almost fell over in
    tears of laughter.  
    
    Since that time the have not said anything.  I think they respect our
    decision and realize that being Catholic is what is right for them  - 
    we have to do what is right for us.
    
    It won't be always easy however as our daughter will be the only child
    in my husband's family who will not go through the Catholic rights of
    passage - communion or confirmation.  It will be up to us to make sure
    that Kate feels comfortable with her own faith.  Therefore, I have to
    disagree with the previous noter who suggested that you and your
    in-laws share the religious upbringing by going from one church to the
    other each week.  This will really confuse AJ.
    
    Good luck

    I also disagree with going from one church one week to another church
    another week (my parents were protestant and catholic), because most
    sunday schools have a workbook and plans for the church year, just like
    a regular teacher.  I used to love some of my workbooks, and if every
    other week a child has to "drop out" of that week's lesson and then
    "drop in" all the time, I think that is very frustrating to a child,
    certainly it would have been to me.

When I suggested switching weeks, I didn't mean that the upbringing had to be
rigid.  There could always be a "main" or focused religion where the basic
religious instruction takes place and occasional trips to "Grandma's" church.
The Lutheran church I grew up in organised this for my entire class!  We would
study other religions and attend other churches to understand their beliefs
also.

When I was a child, if I stayed overnight with my Catholic cousins or Catholic
friends on Saturday, I would attend Mass with them on Sunday.  The attitude
that I was taught to develop was one of tolerance.  I still think that you can
raise a child in the religion you wish while still accomodating the religions
of the rest of the extended family.  After all, I would not like to have my
children thinking that their Grandmother's beliefs were "wrong" or that my
son-in-law, because he is muslim, is some sort of second class citizen.

ccb

    Hi,
      I am from a Jewish upbringing and my husband is from a Catholic
    upbringing. I converted to being a Christian back in College and
    used to go to a Messianic Temple in Md. My husband wants the children
    to be "Christian" and would prefer Catholic. I do not want them to be
    Catholic, but want them to have the Jewish culture and the traditions
    with a basic Christian religious background too. Are you all confused 
    yet? I would also like to find a Messianic Temple in the Worcestor
    area. I just had triplet girls and eventhough they are young, I want
    them to have a strong foundation in faith. 
    
      But like Sheryl in note 305, my husband and I disagree about religion
    and it is a very big wedge between us. Before the girls came, we went
    to a nondemominational church in Colorado. But, this did not give me
    any Jewish Culture or traditions, which I miss tremendously. 
    
      If anyone has any suggestions, please respond directly to
    MCIS5::STELZNER.
    
    Eve 

	Eve,

	You may want to cross-post this in GOLF::CHRISTIAN.  You
	may even want to visit there for a while :-)

	Karen

<                     <<< Note 305.17 by MCIS5::STELZNER >>>

There is also LGP30::CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.  Press KP7 to add it to your
notebook.

     Carol

    I did a directory=Religion, and there seems to be nothing, (although I
    could have sworn there was one)  As I wrote I realized it is quite
    lengthy, just a warning.
    
    I have a problem that appears to be escalating between my mother inlaw
    and I.  She is a fairly devout Catholic, something I find no fault
    with, my father inlaw is head usher at one of the masses every week.  
    I am of the Protestant (Methodist) faith, my husband is Catholic, but
    only goes to mass when absolutely necessary (wedding, funeral etc).
    
    Last year my niece made her first communion, of course a huge family
    occation.  As a simple opinion I've never understood why this occation
    is made such a big deal, but that's probably formed purely out of
    ignorance.  But I went to it, expressed my happiness, and then I had to
    leave to take some teens from a youth group to a visitation, which I am 
    an adult advisor, it's a religious based group as well.  Of course this
    started the MIL off, why was I leaving, why were these girls so
    imporant etc. etc.  This was several hours into the day, it isn't as if
    I had left during or immediately after the ceremony.
    
    This year my other neice and nephew are making their first communion in
    a couple weeks.  These are my husband's brother's children from
    Florida who are living with the Inlaws for this year, why my BIL
    stabilizes his life, and prepares to take full time custody of his
    children.  Mother has basically disapeared from the face of the earth
    with her sister.   This leave only my son who has not yet made his
    first communion, and in fact he won't.  My son goes to church and
    Sunday school at my church, and with me.  He was originally Baptized in
    the Catholic Church, part because we had just moved into our town, it
    was one church my husband's maternal grandmother had used for years so
    it seemed appropriate.  It was also partyly because we had been married
    in the catholic church, more or less to keep my mother in law less
    hostile, and I really hadn't joined a church of my faith.  Also my
    husband warned me that if we didn't baptize the baby in the catholic
    church, she probably wouldn't even come, or speak to us again.
    
    Since then, in January '93, we had him formally rebaptized in the
    Methodist church, to formalize his transfer to a new faith, I was told
    "to keep it quiet, from the Mother inlaw" so I never said anything,
    there was no one else there except his father and I, not even his
    (no practicing Catholic) God Parents.  My Husband has since mentioned
    this "conversion" to his parents.  Which is where our problems have
    stemmed from.
    
    My father Inlaw, both of his 90-odd year old grandmothers think this is
    no big deal, as we do.  At least he is going to church and getting a
    good background.  My mother inlaws attitude it, "don't speak to me
    about it"  I've heard " I DON'T want to talk about it", "Leave it
    alone" and WHEN is he making his first communion?  (does the woman NOT
    understand English??)
    
    To make matters worse, my husband does Studio Photography as a serious 
    hobby.  Last Saturday he was asked to photograph the First Communion
    cermony, and each of the recipiants.  He did this as a favor to our
    daycare provider who is a religious teacher, and he did it pretty much
    at no profit.  He mentioned this to his parents last week, his father
    congratulated him on his first "big job", his mother went balistic! She
    wanted to know how he could do this, when in fact his own son should be
    one of the recipiants, on and on she went.
    
    We still face the first communion of the niece and nephew in two weeks. 
    I'm sure she'll try again.  So what do we do to settle down the mother
    inlaw, and sooth things over.  I can't see what she is making such a
    big deal over?

It's not quite clear to me what you're asking for.  Advice?  A chance to blow 
off steam?

IMO, it is your husband's responsibility to deal with this situation.  It's 
HIS mother.  He understands better, or should, where she is coming from, what 
her religious views are, and what the views of the church are.


Clay

    Lynn,
    
    this is one of those hard ones.  About the only advice I can give you
    is to try to tune out as much noise as you can on this.  It's much like
    the noise I have to tune out with certain relatives who don't
    understand Frank's and my relationship, my religion, and our family
    structure and beliefs.  Blow off steam when you need to to someone who
    isn't likely to take this back to your MIL.  
    
    I "fail to hear" a lot of questions or remarks, and change the subject
    with these people, and my mother now laughs with me on some of the more
    pointed remarks thrown our way.  She used to fret over some of the
    things people said about my family, but now enjoys the shock value. 
    
    
    If you MIL is truly devout, she will never understand your ignoring
    what she considers important sacraments to ensure that your kids' souls
    are safe with god.  You have the choice of training your children in
    both religions and letting them make up their minds on which one to
    follow when they are older, tuning her out, or directly confronting her
    on this and starting Family Wars, which isn't worth it.
    
    Hang in there,
    
    Meg
    
    

    Lyn,
    
    I think part of the problem is in having tried to appease her for so
    long.  She needs to understand that you and your husband are AJ's
    parents, and that you'll make what you feel are the best decisions for
    him.  Your husband might try taking the bull by the horns and
    confronting her on the issue saying that you respect her religion, and
    you expect similar respect from her regarding how you are bringing up
    AJ. If she still gives you all those digs and comments, just ignore
    her, change the subject, or answer something along the lines of you and
    your husband have made your decision and you don't see where it's
    really any of her concern.  Then move on to the next subject at hand.
    
    For Catholics, the Christening, First Communion, and Confirmation are
    all very major events and usually have big parties for the recipient
    associated with them.  I've been described by my non-Catholic husband
    as being very Catholic, but it has never been a problem with him or
    with his family.  And his mother's side is all very Jewish, though his
    Mom converted to Protestant and most of his siblings were brought up
    Protestant.  We've taken the attitude that it is up to us to do what's
    best for the kids, and have stood firm. That usually helps people to
    come around or at least leave you alone. I also find that standing firm
    leads to lots less comments than waffling or just not telling them that
    you've done or not done something.
    
    But then, my style has always been to just meet things head-on and
    handle from there.
    
    Good luck.
    Cathy

    I have a very similar problem, but we have dealt with it more directly.
    
    Both my husband and I were raised as Roman Catholics.  First Holy
    Communion is certainly a very big deal.  It is probably one of the
    biggest parties that a child remembers, since a Christening is done at
    birth.  You get fussed over, wear fancy clothes, and complete a rite of
    passage.  I'm sure this is where your MIL is coming from.
    
    We purposly decided not to raise our children as Roman Catholics, or to
    marry in the Catholic church.  My father seems indifferent.  My mother
    is disappointed and worried, but never mentions it. Of course, I'm one
    of 6 and only one of my siblings is raising his children in the
    Catholic faith.  So, she just may be worn down!
    
    My husband is an only child and his mother focuses on our child (soon
    to be children) and their religion.  She is very worried that our child
    will die and spend eternity in Limbo (even though the Church dismissed
    this concept years ago).  She raises her concerns periodically, but
    always to my husband.  He deals with it and so far, we have managed to
    keep the peace.  She has asked if we would get the children baptized
    and initially we said no.  Now we are saying that if she can find a way
    without us being involved, then that is fine.
    
    We are giving her this because very few churches allow baptism when the
    parents are not involved and don't promise to raise the child a
    Catholic.  So far, she hasn't managed it.  But I'm due with our second
    child in less than a month, and I'm sure it will come up again. 
    Interestingly enough, she never mentions this to me directly.  But she
    knows I have strong opinions and am willing to discuss them.  She may
    be worried that I would reject her outright, and therefore goes through
    my husband.  
    
    It's a tough, longstanding problem.  But AJ is *your* son and you have
    a right to raise him in your faith.
    
    judy

    Lyn,
    
    Would it help any to explain to your MIL the reasons that you chose
    Methodist over Catholicism?  I would like my children to have a
    religious upbringing, but would never ever want them to be raised in
    the "staunchness" of the Catholic church as I was exposed to it.  I
    have not yet been able to find a Catholic church that preaches and
    practices love and kindness, and so it's not a religion that I want my
    children raised in.  When I was a child, we were taught, through the
    Church and CCD to be AFRAID of doing ANYthing wrong, and that we would
    burn in hell if we did, and that was pretty much the extent of our
    religious teachings.  Certainly not an environment I want my children
    in.  
    
    I also don't agree with some of the other Catholic beliefs, and have
    found more peace and acceptance in other faiths, as well as the ability
    to realistically live within the confines of the religious beliefs, AND
    in society at the same time.  
    
    Maybe if you can explain where your differences between the religions
    arise, and why you feel that your choice is a better choice than Her
    choice, FOR YOU and AJ, and reassure her that his soul really IS okay!
    As I recall in my old church, they constantly preached how "wrong"
    other religions were, and they were poor misguided souls who would also
    burn .... if she buys this, then that may be the root of her fears. 
    Try to impress on her that you ARE giving him God and Love, and that in
    the end, that is what should be most important.  Tell her you're not
    comfortable (knowlegeable?) about Catholicism, and you feel you can do
    a much better job with a Methodist upbringing.
    
    I am Catholic (as are my siblings).  The first time my sister got
    married, it was in the Catholic Church.  For everyone else, it was
    non-denominatial, or in my case, Lutheran.  Interestingly enough for
    me, the Catholic church refused to marry us because he wasn't Catholic,
    and wouldn't convert.  That to me says a lot about their flexibility
    and ability to deal with "real life".  
    
    As for Communion .... there are several "major steps" that a Catholic
    MUST go through to maintain/affirm their religion.  The first is the
    baptism, the second is First Communion, the next is Confirmation.  If
    you have missed any/all of these milestones, you will not be permitted
    to marry in the Catholic church.  You can't get Communion until you've
    been baptized, can't be confirmed until you've had communion.  Sounds
    to me like maybe she still has it firmly in her mind that he is/can be
    a Catholic and maybe is panicking over him missing Communion. 
    Incidentally, there is supposed to be a LOT of Bible Study that takes
    place before First Communion, so even though his age may be right, he
    does not have the religious background he should have for Communion
    anyway.  Confession plays a part in there - I think it's before First
    Communion, but I'm not positive.
    
    For a true Catholic, he can't just get the "titles" - he would have had
    to have been learning their beliefs all along.  In the eyes of the
    church, you shouldn't receive Communion just because you're 7 - it
    should be because of certain beliefs and teachings, which it doesn't
    sound like he's had.  To have his Communion would seem more
    hipocritical at this point.  Like the people who say they're very
    religious, but only go to church on Easter and Christmas.
    
    Good luck .... I think she sounds wound up enough that ignoring her
    isn't going to work until you can soothe some of her panic about the
    situation.
    
    Patty

    To Patty and everyone else, thank you for your viewpoints.
    
    An interesting aside to all this is another current situation, in my
    sister inlaw, my husband's youngest sister.  She was married almost
    three years ago, in a Congregational Ceremony.  This is due to the fact
    that her husband had been married briefely, and his ex was flatly
    refusing and annulment, and the Catholic church was making it just as
    difficult.  They finally said enough is enough, the date was chosen the
    hall reserved, and they decided it would be in some church, and if the
    Catholic church wouldn't do it, then her only criteria (I still find
    this one humerous) was to find a church with a *center* aisle for her
    to walk down.  She chose the pretty white church on Shrewsbury common. 
    She did stop long enough to request the male minister, they do have a
    female minister there (I went to a friend's funeral and she presided) 
    Now my sister inlaw has recently given birth.  She made the comment
    while still in the hospital that she will ask the Catholic church to
    Baptize the baby, but if they refuse on the grounds of they aren't
    *really married* in the eyes of the catholic church, or whatever else
    then she has already approached the minister who married them.  (My MIL
    was at the ceremony, she didn't feel strong enough to avoid it).
    
    Last Saturday my husband did a photography job at the first communion
    in our town.  As objectively as I can I will say the priest was a royal
    pain in the butt!  He was obnoxious at the rehursal, yelled at me for
    sitting in front of some religious vessel during the rehursal (how did
    I know, in fact I was aside of it, not directly infront)  Made it clear
    he would not stop giving the communion even long enough for my husband
    to change his flash from one camera to another, about a 30 second job.
    Fortunate our daycare provider was "flowing" the kids, and held back
    the next child until we signaled OK, but if looks could kill we'd all
    be dead right now!  The provider and several others have said not nice
    things about this priest, so it wasn't just my opinion alone, including
    our provider.   My husband's comment after it was over was that it's
    people like that who make him NOT want to come to church.
    
    A little more background, when we discovered our daughter had died in
    utero, I labored for about 10 hours (Induced).  We spent almost all
    that time trying to find a priest to baptize her when she was born. 
    Three priests, including the one from the church who married us, my
    Inlaw's church, refused.  A very wonderful L&D nurse finally found a
    woman Baptist minister to Baptize Stacy, and pray with us.  The
    Catholic reasoning was that she had never lived, and therefore had
    never committed any sin, therefore would not be Baptized.  C'mon what's
    wrong with this.  And with this in mind do I blame my husband for
    turning his back on his Catholic church?  Not at all!
    
    Mother in law had a very strong Catholic upbringing, even spent a brief
    period in a Catholic Orphanage, when her mother and first husband were
    divorced. (how the grandmother remarried, and continues to belong I
    don't understand).  So I understand her convictions, but not her
    pushing down my throat.
    
    Lyn

    
    NOTE: I do not intend to offend any Catholics here, and my comments are
    based solely on my experiences with the Catholic church.  If you have
    other viewpoints, please speak up!
    
    Lyn,
    
    I'd have to guess she's afraid for you .... unless you're raised
    Catholic, I don't think that you can realize the strength and
    conviction used to convince people to be AFRAID.  If you'd asked me in
    High School, what was the first thing that came to mind about religion,
    it would be fear.  Not love or God or goodness or purity, but fear of
    messing up, and going to h*ll for it, and burning forever.  Because
    that's just the way God is.  At least that's what we were all taught.
    
    I remember being confused and amazed that a friend of mine (Protestant)
    used to ENJOY going to church, and they had a Youth Club, so the kids
    had *FUN* together, and she believed that God was to HELP you, and not
    just Judge you, and that even if you messed up, it didn't mean you were
    a bad person - it just meant you messed up - and as long as you
    realized and tried harder next time, it was really okay.  And more
    importantly, they learned to find SOMEthing to love about EVERYone!!  I
    was never exposed to ANYthing like this in my church.
    
    We were taught if you mess up, you MIGHT be able to be forgiven with
    Confession, but even the thought of that was pretty intimidating, and
    forgiveness was so FORMAL - you couldn't just pledge to try harder.  If
    you doubted for an instant, then any "help" you might want would be
    lost.  If you doubted or waivered, God's back would be turned forever,
    and you were damned with the worst of them.  I remember quite clearly
    not believing in God at all for a period of years as a teenager.  And
    being *SO* afraid to voice that thought because I figured I'd burn. 
    And I figured I would anyway, whether or not I voiced it, because God
    knows everything anyway, right?  And even now, I write this with some
    trepidation -- because WHO really knows, right?  And you BETTER be
    afraid of God or you're going straight to H*LL!
    
    So anyway, perhaps she really is THAT afraid for your family and your
    souls.  And perhaps she feels responsible and that SHE will be judged
    if her children do not raise their children with the same beliefs.
    
    You've got to find a way to separate your wants and her wants, and be
    able to make her understand that he really WILL be okay.
    
    I'll never forget the *SHOCK* of my life when my mother took me (*VERY*
    much against my will!) to a non-Catholic church when I was about 17,
    and all the people there were TALKING and LAUGHING and SINGING and
    having *FUN*!!!  I thought for SURE they were all just going to burn
    right before my eyes!!  It's what you're presented with, and how it's
    presented, and Catholicism definitely leaves an indelible line in
    people's lives.  I don't believe in it, but I sure can't help
    remembering it!! (and it's still kinda scarey to think of....)
    
    Get in touch with the aspects of religion that are most important to
    YOU to share with AJ, and then show your MIL that he is learning that,
    and she's NOT responsible for making sure he's Catholic.
    
    I hope this helps!
    
    Patty
    

Guys, I'm afraid I'm gonna don my mod hat and say that I'm concerned that 
we're getting close to getting away from the purpose of this notesfile.

Discussing how to bring up your children when your spouse or her/his family 
is of another religion is very much an appropriate topic for conversation.

Discussing specific religious ceremonies or customs your child might learn 
about in school or be exposed to in a friends home, and what your child 
should do is also an appropriate topic.

Discussing personal views on a specific religion isn't.  I do understand that 
the personal views have been in the context of trying to help Lyn understand 
her MIL.  But despite that intent, the result could very well be a discussion 
of a specific religion, and that's not appropriate.

Clay
 

    Lyn,
    
    I suspect that your SIL just has to find the 'right' Catholic priest.
    I am Catholic myself (although only on paper) and my husband is an
    agnostic. When we had our daughter Katrina christened (to keep the
    peace - my mother is VERY Catholic!!), I spoke to our local Catholic
    priest. You should have seen me a couple of hours before he was due
    to arrive at our house! I was a nervous wreck, almost afraid of talking
    to him, because I would have to tell him that (at that time) my partner
    and I were not married (out of choice). Well, this man arrived and we
    had a wonderful conversation for about two hours.
    
    He took the time to get to know our situation, the reasons why we did
    not want to get married (I had been married before and didn't see the
    point of a simple piece of paper). His bottom line was: You both have
    obviously thought about it very carefully, you obviously thought about
    having a child very carefully, we (the church) would be very happy to
    welcome Katrina. His only (humourous) condition was that if we ever
    did decide to get married, could we please do it in his church, "I
    love doing weddings!" (I was almost sorry when, a year later, we did
    decide to get married, but only in a civil ceremony. He would have
    been soo much fun!!)
    
    He even went to the trouble of giving us special dispensation from a
    ten week(!!) course that the parents of children to be christened have
    to attend once a week, basically talks about what it meant to be 
    welcomed into the church. But, after our conversation, he felt that we
    were not really the typical Catholic couple who attended this sort
    of meeting. 
    
    Soooo, a month later Katrina was christened. There were some sections
    in the service booklet that referred to husband and wife and he very
    tactfully replaced the wording with things like "partnership",
    "teamwork" etc. All in all, a very joyful occasion.
    
    Speaking to a Catholic neighbour later, she said that I was lucky to have
    done this "under the new priest" (he'd been there for two years), the
    previous one would have refused and given me a speech about "fear, fire
    and brimstone".
    
    Of course YMMV, especially as all this took place in the UK. The US may
    have different rules....
    
    Sorry to ramble.
    
    Gilla
    
    
    

As a previous reply noted, this is not meant to be an attack on all Catholics,
just MY experience being raised as Catholic.

.20 (the note that started this) wanted opinions on how to deal with the MIL at
the first communion happening in a few weeks.  I would strongly suggest you
deal with it BEFORE then.  I'd much rather be in a private knock-down/drag-out
screaming match with only a few people around than at a family get together.

Some time in the future I will have to get my family to face the fact that I
can not be a hypocrite and have a child baptized in the Catholic Church.
I have come to know what the baptism sacrament means according to the Church and
I simply do not agree with it.

The "fear" theme mentioned in several replies is the best way I'd be able to 
describe my experience growing up in the Catholic Church.  I had to attend
"Sunday school" once a month at a prositiant church so I could play in the
basketball league... this gave me a very limited view of another religion. They
weren't laughing in the pews but they did appear to be enjoying themselves a
bit more than the people I was used to seeing at Mass.

I'd get together with the MIL, and any other family members and describe your
concerns and maybe even offer to let your son attend a few Masses with the MIL
(and you of course).  Personally I get VERY LITTLE out of any message that is
given in a MASS (after all, when you cut out all the ceremony, there is very
little time for a separate message left).  A comedian once described the
Catholic service as cheer-leading "stand-up, sit-down fight-fight-fight".

>>I can't see what she is making such a big deal over?

I believe, (my Catholic is a bit rusty) but it was also mentioned in a few
previous replies that a First Communion is one of the required sacraments in
the Catholic church.  If you have not received your first communion, you can not
share in any future sacrament - including marriage in the church.
I think there are seven sacraments I can only remember a few...
- baptism, communion, confession, marriage, death - I think one has to do with
entering the priesthood, can't think of the other one.

To a devoted Catholic, not getting the First Communion mean that the person
will not be able to fully participate in MASS (can not receive the
body-of-Christ).  And as mentioned in other replies, the fear factor your MIL
has FOR YOUR SON (not herself) is what is driving her.  She most likly fully
believes that your son will not be able to reach Heaven unless he has recieved
this sacrament.  Keep this in mind when you talk to her.

Brian J.

    
    Is there any reason (besides makeing family happy) to have
    a child sanctified in a religion that they will not be 
    brought up in and in one that you do not believe?
    
    My in-laws are Christian, my husband and I are not.  If we
    had a child, it certainly would not be baptised/christened.
    I would like to understand the difference between this and
    having a non-Catholic child have a first communion.  Maybe
    it is just severity of the differences?
    
    Honestly, from what I know, I don't understand why a Priest
    would baptise or first communion a non-Catholic child.
    
    Amy

    
>    Is there any reason (besides makeing family happy) to have
>    a child sanctified in a religion that they will not be 
>    brought up in and in one that you do not believe?

An excellent question.  I'm interested in responses also.

One possible explanation is the religion plays a cultural as well as 
spiritual role for many families.  Christenings, baptisms, first communions, 
bar/bas/bat mitzvahs, are all important cultural and family events to many.  
Just as many families go to church on Easter and/or Christmas for the only 
time all year, and have family gatherings and big meals.

Clay  

	I was raised a Roman Catholic in a "staunch
Irish Catholic" home. I attended a Catholic high school.
From the time I graduated high school until 5 or 6
years ago I hadn't set foot in a Roman Catholic Church
except for someone else's wedding, funeral, christening,
etc. My wife was an Episcopalian and we were married in
her church (much to my mother's dismay) and each of
our 3 children were christened in the Episcopal Church
and each, although not formally, received their first
communion in the Episcopal church. As many of you may
know the Episcopal church leaves the decision of 
whether a child has enough understanding of the meaning
of communion to the parent and sets no formal age
for first communion. When we moved to Holliston we
made a conscious decision to look at other churches
in town and see how comfortable we were with them. Our
personal beliefs do run strongly close to the Catholic
faith and so we began attending Mass at the local Roman
Catholic parish. We spoke to the priests there and 
addressed a number of issues. First of all, the Catholic
church accepts the premise that we are baptised 
christians and not specifically Catholics. Therefor they
accept baptisms from other christian denominations. With
my 2 older children I was told that no formal communion
ceremony was necessary. The key here was an 
understanding of the difference between communion in
the Catholic church and in other christian faiths. The
Catholic church beliefs that communion IS the body
and blood of Christ while most other christian faiths
believe it is the representation of such. My wife was
so impressed with the way this parish handled our 
situation that she herself converted. The only item
that we had to deal with was our youngest daughter's
wish to recieve communion. The parish would not allow
a child younger than second grade to recieve communion
so she had to wait a year and go through the CCD classes
and received "first" communion with her peers. This 
caused great angst in our household as she received 
gifts from relatives that the other 2 never got. 

In our house we deal with the issue of religion and the
MIL often. We have told my mother that we are living
our lives as we believe they should be lived. It has 
taken nearly 20 years but the subject seldom comes up
in conversation these days anymore. We spent Easter
with my mother this year. Now that my oldest and my
brother's oldest are getting close to confirmation
the subject of religion and beliefs came up after 
dinner. About an hour into the very friendly discussion
my brother and I made eye contact and we both smiled
and at the same time said simply "De Ja Vu". My mother
couldn't stop laughing.

	I was raised in the Catholic church.  Although I've heard from 
	several other people about how strict and fearful their upbrining 
	was in this religion, I think my parents had a bit of a more 
	realistic view.  For example, they always made it clear that 
	priests, nuns, and other representatives of the church were 
	human, just like the rest of us.  Therefore, there were apt to 
	be good ones, and bad.  And, they were also allowed to make 
	mistakes.  A history of the church also shows that there were 
	times that it was very humble, and supportive, and times when 
	they made terrible mistakes.  But, I believe that any body, 
	whether they be a family, country, or religion, probably goes 
	through this...

	More to the point of the question in .20, I think that the reply 
	in .33 was very good -- and maybe should be given some thought.  
	Many of the "older" generation in the Catholic church still have 
	some very outdated attitudes.  For example, your MIL obviously 
	believes that your son is not a "true Christian", since he is 
	not being raised in the Catholic church.

	I'm am certainly NOT an expert on the church (can't say I went 
	to Catholic school, strictly attended all my religion classes, 
	etc), but I DO believe that a lot of changes were made after 
	what is referred to as Vatican II.  

	One of these is that the Catholic church believes that any person 
	who is baptized in (and follows the beliefs of ) any of the other 
	"mainstream Christian" religions (Protestant/Methodist/Lutheran) 
	is, indeed, recognized as being Christian.

	This means that if your son decides that he DOES want to join 
	the Catholic church, some time in the future, he will NOT be 
	rebaptized.  He will simply make a "profession of faith", saying 
	that he chooses to agree with the Catholic beliefs.

	I don't know if it's worth the effort, but it may help to find 
	a young priest (post Vatican-II, preferably), who is very open 
	to these issues.  Then, ask HIM to talk to your MIL, and assure 
	her that you son is a recognized Christian, will go to heaven, 
	and/or whatever else she may be concerned about.  Although I 
	don't agree with your MIL's outdated fears, to her they are 
	probably very real, and assurances like this may help.

	Peggy

    
    Hi,
    
    I haven't had a chance to read through all of these messages, but
    from what I've read, there are a lot of misconceptions about the 
    Catholic church.  I recongnize the fact that alot of people don't
    like the C-church because of the rules, some of which I'm not 
    crazy about myself. Well, just to set the record straight, the 
    Church does preach love and kindness; I've lived in 18 states and 
    have yet to find one that does not! No, there are no big bible 
    study courses for kids receiving first communion, just the basics!
    And, the church will marry all baptised christians.  Yes, the church
    of old preached stricter messages on this one, but that view is gone.
    Heaven is not for Catholics only!!
    
    As a Catholic who really enjoys being one, I get a little frustrated
    when people who have been away from the church for their own reasons
    try to explain what the church is like. It's kinda like describing 
    someone whom you haven't seen in ten years; they've probably changed
    from the description you're currently giving! I'm not denying that 
    some people have had a bad experience with the church -- I also had a 
    less than pleasant experience as a child and I grew up with that
    "Catholic guilt"; I even stopped going for a long time. But, I went 
    back, all on my own, and I can happily say that for me, once I was mature 
    enough to understand it better (when I was about 23!), I really got
    into being a Catholic.
    
    At the same time, I feel bad for those of you who are being put down
    or pressured by relatives who are presumably devout Catholics. What
    they are forgetting is that their obligation to their children's faith
    ended when that child was confirmed. At that moment, the child became 
    an adult responsible for themselves. If the child no longer practices
    their faith, this might be upsetting to them, but in no way should it
    be a reason to cause discomfort and stress. Between me and my husband,
    we have quite the variety. His side is Methodist, mostly
    non-practicing, some without any wish for religion at all.  My side is
    Catholic, some practice, some don't, some have switched to other 
    religions.  But, no one is better than anyone else, no one gives
    anyone else a hard time, and we all respect each other's wishes and
    views.
    
    patty
    
    

    re .35
    Nicely said. Thanks.
    

re: .35

You said the Catholic church will marry all baptised Christians...

Recently, my husband and I decided not to have Lauren baptised in
the Catholic church (or any church for that matter) because we were
not prepared to meet the promises that you make to raise the child
as a Catholic.  I was baptised in the Catholic church but never
went beyond that.  My husband went the whole way (till age 13 or so)
but never attends now because he does "not believe in organized religion"
but he does believe in God.

Anyhow... question.  I had no problem marrying my husband in the
Catholic church but then, I was baptised.  If, some day, Lauren meets
and wants to marry a Catholic, will she be able to marry him in
the Catholic church without being baptised?

Karen

> If, some day, Lauren meets and wants to marry a Catholic, will she be 
> able to marry him in the Catholic church without being baptised?

It's hard to guess what the rules of the Catholic church will be in some
20+ years, but, if the church requires baptism, Lauren can always choose
to be baptized then.

    I would guess that Lauren would be required to receive
    all of the sacraments before being allowed to be married
    in the Catholic church.
    
    My brother in law had to receive baptism, confession and
    confirmation before being allowed to my my sister in law
    in the Catholic Church.  This was 8 yrs ago.
    
    	Linda

    
    Yes, as the last few noters have said, your daughter will be
    required to receive the sacraments before being allowed to marry
    in the Catholic church (unless the Church goes through some radical
    changes!!).  She will be asked to show proof of baptism and
    confirmation.  
    
    Here's a question for you.  If you are not having her baptized into
    the Catholic faith, and do not plan on raising her as a Catholic, 
    why would she desire to marry in the Catholic church? It doesn't
    sound like she'll be exposed to it much. 
    
    For example, I have a nephew receiving his confirmation this saturday.
    He is really not ready to accept the role of a responsible adult in
    the church; his parents are Catholics but don't practice their religion.
    By saying he's not ready, I mean that he has no idea what the sacrament
    actually means, and what will be expected of him. His parents feel it is 
    no big deal that he's not ready, and he'll need this when he gets married
    someday.  Well, it's true he'll need it, but it's not like a tetanus shot;
    it should be taken a lot more seriously. I see no need for anyone to go 
    through the motions of being a Catholic when they don't practice the 
    Catholic faith. That what I did for years until I finally decided to
    get off the fence, so to speak.
                                   

my stepbrother married a catholic in a catholic church.   I don't know 
what her sacremental history was (confirmation or no), but obviously 
he had no catholic sacraments.    There were no requirements on him.  

So if your daughter marries a catholic in a catholic church, I don't 
see that she would have to fulfill any requirements, as long as he has.


FWIW, their child is a baptised catholic and his brother is the 
god-father.  His brother is lutheran.      When our daughter was 
baptised (catholic), they said only one godparent had to be catholic.  

    re. -1, your step-brother is probably a baptized christian.
    Baptism is not only done by Catholics.
    
    My husband is not a Catholic, but he is a baptized christian. That
    was the only requirement for him.
    
    Referring back to the daughter in question, if she is considered
    Catholic, she will have requirements to fulfill in order to be 
    married in the Catholic church.
    
    yes, with god-parents, only one has to be Catholic. 

>>my stepbrother married a catholic in a catholic church.   I don't know 
>>what her sacremental history was (confirmation or no), but obviously 
>>he had no catholic sacraments.    There were no requirements on him.  
>>
>>So if your daughter marries a catholic in a catholic church, I don't 
>>see that she would have to fulfill any requirements, as long as he has.

	Well, like I said, I was married in the Catholic church but
	I was never confirmed.  Baptised yes, but thats as far as it
	went.  I don't recall if I had to show proof of baptism.  I
	could not have Mass during the wedding, which was fine with 
	me, being non-Catholic.  However, the church was my parents
	church (they are full Catholics and finally began practicing
	after I grew up) so I don't know if any strings were pulled
	to get me married there or not.  

	Anyhow, sounds like it is not an issue I should worry about.
	
>>FWIW, their child is a baptised catholic and his brother is the 
>>god-father.  His brother is lutheran.      When our daughter was 
>>baptised (catholic), they said only one godparent had to be catholic.  

	That's wierd... I thought god parents had a responsibility
	to assist the parents in ensuring that the child be brought
	up as Catholic.

	
	I don't think it is right to have Lauren (or ANY CHILD) baptised, 
	then send her to church get her confirmed etc. if neither one of 
	her parents are practicing.  My husbands parents did this to
	him and as soon as he was confirmed he stopped going.  If the
	parents can't set an example for their child to follow then
	they should not make their child become Catholic.  The priest
	I talked to felt that I was making a good decision given the
	circumstances.

	Karen

    
    yes, I agree with you, Karen. I think a great injustice has been
    done to lots of children who were taken through the steps with 
    little understanding or indifference to the whole situation. 
                                                                
    
    You didn't need confirmation because you aren't Catholic. (Wow,
    all of this can get confusing, huh?")  Only Catholics get confirmed,
    and they need it in order to get married in the Church.  
    
    You're right on the money as to what the god-parents' role is.
    And only one has to be Catholic.  My husband is a god-father to 
    a Catholic, but he's Methodist.  I believe he's actually called 
    something else but I can't remember the word.....
    
    My 7 week old daughter was baptized a few weeks ago. I picked two
    practicing Catholics as god-parents. This excluded my husband's whole
    family as choices (and most of mine!!), but they all understood because
    they knew it was important to me.
    
    patty
    

>    You didn't need confirmation because you aren't Catholic. (Wow,
>    all of this can get confusing, huh?")  Only Catholics get confirmed,
    
I don't believe this is true.  Other Christian religions have confirmations
as well.

                                                     Tracy    

In any Christian denomination, a Confirmation makes sense if the person
was baptised (or Christened) as a child.  Baptism as an adult includes the
personal acceptance that makes either sacrement meaningful, and so would
probably cover both sacrements (from a Catholic perspective) before marriage.

BTW - our church (non-denominational) does either infant Baptisms or 
infant Dedications, depending on the parents' preference; and adult 
baptisms by immersion.  I just agree that the sacrement without the 
personal acceptance and commitment is pointless at best, and sinful 
at worst... a promise only made to be broken.

-Tanya

    Oh, dear, I wasn't going to reply, but I can't stop myself...
    
    I'm a Catholic, and to the best of my knowledge, we don't publish an
    official RULE BOOK.  At least, in my lifetime I have never seen one!!
    
    Here's my story:  I married a NON-baptised man IN the Catholic church,
    with a full mass....the works.  My husband was raised as a Christian,
    but his particular demonination didn't baptise children.  My husband
    discussed his views/beliefs with our priest, and his being "officially"
    baptised didn't play any role in whether or not we could marry.  He has
    since converted, and has received all the sacraments I have.  Our
    priest is a loving compassionate man, and his role in our marriage was
    to HELP us.  After all, as he put it, "I'm not marrying you, you are 
    marrying each other."
    
    There are many (older) people who were raised in a different period of
    the church's history.  I personally view today's church as being open-
    minded and loving.....but then again I'm only 30, so I can't relate to
    others' experiences.  Many people chose to hang on to outdated
    practices after Vatican II, and that may explain why there are so many
    different opinions about what the "rules" dictate.
    
    As for the person/people whose family is giving them grief about not
    following the rules....take heart.  We can all value each other's
    opinion without hurting each other--at least that's the goal for me.
    Try to take your family's remarks with a grain of salt, and go where
    your heart leads you.
    
    Peace,
    
    Linette 
    

Given that I was raised Catholic and my wife was raised in the Nazarene
church will be faced with the baptism/no baptism issue at the end of the
year.  

We were married in the Catholic Church but since then I've been a "once in a
while" Mass attendee.

My wife did not want to have the child baptized in the Catholic church given
what I had told her what I was taught would happen "in the eyes of the church"
if the child died without being baptized.

We started to attend a "Re-Membering the Church" group at a local (Merrimack
NH) Catholic Church and all really have time to put here is that it appears the 
Catholic Church has made some major changes in its teachings since I went to
CCD and got confirmed.  Of course, it appears they are not making a really big
effort to tell all the people that have left and grew up with the old beliefs
(a big gripe at these meetings).

Anyway, I ended up telling my mother (who will get the word to the rest of the
family and who will start praying to St Jude for me to change my mind!)
yesterday that the child (due in October) may not end up being baptized because
I do not believe "everything" the Church is doing, but that I am making an
effort to see if things have changed in the past 15 or so years (my final year
of formal CCD was some time in early high school and I'm 31 now).  She took it
better than I though and understood my feeling about being a hypocrite by saying
"you will be Catholic (what I feel I am doing by presenting the child for
baptism), but I don't believe in it".

My wife's family is not pushing for any religion.  The only similar thing the
Nazarene Church has is a Dedication of the child in front of the church members
which is meant to let the church community know that the parents intend to raise
the child as a Christian, and ask the community for help in doing that.  A
great deal less formal.

Brian J. 

    
    re: .45  
    
    You don't have to believe it. And yes, there might be other christian 
    religions that have confirmations. That would be interesting to find
    out.
    
    The main thing that I'm trying to say is that if you are looking
    to get married in the Catholic church, and one of you is not Catholic,
    than the Catholic church requires that you be a baptized christian.
    They don't require anything else from non-Catholics.  However, if
    you are Catholic, they will require proof of Confirmation.
        

    
    
    	re: .-1
    
    	The Protestant faith also has confirmations, at least I know this
    	to be true of the Congregational denomination.  Confirmation usually
    	occurs when the child is in the 9th or 10th grade, after having
    	attended Sunday school (equivalent to your CCD) since grade 1.  I
    	repeat USUALLY, this is not always the procedure.
    

The following note has been entered on behalf of a noter who wishes to
remain anonymous.  If you wish to reply my mail to this noter, send mail to
me, and I will forward it.  If you wish an email reply to be anonymous,
please tell me; otherwise, it will be forwarded with all the header
information.

Clay Satow
co-moderator

***************************************

I have an unusual problem that I am hoping someone can help me with.  I was
never very religious, I do not come from a religious family and I haven't
been to church in about 25 years.

I am expecting in August and I would like to get my baby baptized but I am
not sure how to go about this.  I have no strong preference for any
religion, when I was a child I attended a Syrian Orthodox church for a
little while.  

My basic belief is that this is a diety and I have always tried to be good
to other people and have held high moral beliefs.  

I live in the Boylston-Sterling area and I would welcome any recommendations
for a church, pastor, minister or priest.  Quite frankly, I do not believe
in organized religion and would not plan on attending church on a regular
basis. 

Thank you.

re: .51

Some of the notes preceding this one may be of interest to you; they give 
various "definitions" of baptism-like ceremonies, and how some religions 
interpret them.

When you say you don't believe in organized religion, I interpret you as 
saying that you don't accept any particular religious dogma.  You may find 
some churches quite open to a variety of beliefs.  My suggestion would be to 
find a non-denominational church, or a Unitarian Universalist church.

Clay  

I am not a church goer, although my wife generally does.  Our children
were baptized in the Anglican church.  It was only the last church where
we were truly interviewed about our faith.  The Rector was satisfied with
our motives in having a child baptized.  The churches are now more
concerned with motives for baptism as being other than "the thing to do".
Although I am not a church-goer, my beliefs are very compatible with
those of more and more church deity ... The idea of accepting everything
a church stands for is less a requirement today as long as the motives
are understandable.

Generally churches today will expect some degree of church participation
before and/or after the baptism from one or more family members.  It seems
a reasonable request.  Some of the non-denominational churches can actually
be more demanding than the long standing churches.

Stuart