Conference moira::parenting

    You said you are giving your sister support during this...so here are
    some support suggestions: First, has she any type of therapy or support
    group to be involved in? If not, you could call around to some agencies
    (agencies like Lutheran Family Services in Worcester, who work with single
    mothers). She would benefit greatly by talking with other single
    parents. Secondly, I hope you are staying out of the name issue. It
    seems that there are some issues she has with the child not having the
    fathers name. It would be best for you to listen to her reasons and let 
    her decide herself. And support her in her decision. It's not going to
    make much of a difference to the child, as long as the child is raised
    with love, what the name is. It may be confusing as the child grows
    older, but it probably won't lead the child to be become an axe
    murderer :-)! When we adopt our child, he will have his father's name
    but not my name. My sister's child has her husband's name and not her
    name. My friends, who just adopted, named their son HER name, and not
    his name. So it's been done and is being done. As long as the parents
    are comfortable with it, the children will not grow to learn there is
    any problem with it. But it would be good in this case for your sister
    to "get clear" on why she wants to name the baby the father's name. A
    support group may help in that. 
    
    I think it's great that you are giving her such support and care. She
    will need it for years to come. 
    
    Cyn

    Ian,

    	Looks like you are really riled up about this (my word calling
    someone a cheeky bastard in a public notesfile, what is civilization
    coming to? ;-))

    	My last name is Thomas. My husband's last name is Nozell. I got
    married when I was 31 and didn't feel comfortable changing my name at
    that point in my life (I - on rare occasion- publish things, and I
    teach at a local college and I have a few college degrees all under
    *my* name).

    	Our son (and this next baby) have their father's surname. They
    (both) have my last name as their middle names. Spencer Thomas Nozell,
    Second Baby Thomas Nozell.

    	Does it cause a problem? Sure, some of the insurance papers get
    mixed up, some people don't know what to call me (ah Mrs. Nozell?) and
    so very often they don't call me anything, older people don't get it at
    all and just assume my child is illegitimate.

    	Does it bother me? Not a bit. Do I worry that it will impact my
    children down the road? Not a bit. I grew up in a family that because
    of mixed marriages had children with different last names, my mother
    had a different last name than I did, I learned that it was me that
    counted *as I was*. I always knew that I was my mother *and* my
    father's (who had died) child.

    	I believe that it is in how the situation is handled. If there is
    no regret, no guilt than having the father's name is a way of anchoring
    and giving roots. It may not be as terrible as you imagine (although I
    do have to agree with you that PICKUP is a fairly ah, unique name but
    then to be perfectly honest, so is NOZELL (love you honey) ;-))

    				Wendy

    
    
    Speaking from experience, I named by daughter with her father's last
    name and it really didn't make a difference until she went into the
    hospital and people kept calling me Mrs. ____.  Pretty soon I got tired
    of correcting them.  Yes, It can cause a problem with people who just
    assume things.  But in the long run it was not a major problem.  I am
    expecting again, (long story) by the same guy. But this time this child
    will have both of our last names.  ???-??? 
    
    One little point!  When his family was around, they would ask her what
    her name was and she would answer Ashley Monique Clark which was my
    last name, when they left the room, I would ask her and she would say
    her correct name.  (She was only 2).   Children can be amazing.  
    
    So just weather the storm, at this point it really doesn't matter which
    name your sister uses.  Because the child will probably be called by
    both names. That has also happen to me.  Your sister will have more
    problems convincing your mother to accept her granddaughter, than
    worrying about what surname to use.   Also she will need all the
    positive support she can use right now.  Believe me, I been there and
    now I'm going through round two.
    
    Leslie    

    Laws vary by location (in the U.S. by state). but in many locations you
    can easily change a child's name for a specified period after the
    birth, presumably to help with problems like this.  In some cases, you
    can change the birth certificate by having it reissued.
    
    If you'd care to ask a lawyer or government official, you can at least
    know what the local laws are about name changing (e.g. when can you do
    it, and how difficult is it).  Then you can decide whether to share
    this information with your sister.
    
    Even if she gives the child the father's surname, she may end up
    changing it to your family name within a few years.  
    
    Hang in there and try to be patient with her.  It has only been a few
    weeks and she is still making major adjustments.  After I had a baby,
    I wouldn't trust myself to make important decisions for 6 months!  I
    swear I had post-partum insanity, or maybe it was just lack of sleep.
    :-)
    
    L
    

    In some states if you aren't married to the father, you can't give the
    child his surname.  In the eyes of the state the father has no rights
    to the child and if the parents were to get married at a later date, he
    would have to adopt his own child inorder to change its surname.  Texas
    is one of these states.
    
    I was dating my now husband for over 5 years when I got pregnant.  We
    wanted to wait until the following year to get married, but found all
    the above out and decided to just go ahead and get married before the
    child was born.  We were told it would take about 2 years and aprox
    $1,400 for my husband to adopt his own son.  This sounds so stupid to
    me and I still don't understadn the reasoning behind it.
    
    Anyway, if you aren't sure of your states laws on this, you may want to
    check it out.
    
    Kathy

    
    	I am on the other side of this.  When my husband and I divorced, I
    kept his name for the sake of my son.  I had started to change
    everything, and had to go to the hospital to change my records.  That
    was when I realized how much trouble things could be.  I have found
    things are easier to get done concerning my son because I have retained
    my married name.
    	I had also thought about a friend I have with 3 kids from different
    marriages. All have separate names.  She has to carry around all sorts
    of documents to prove they are all hers.  They all look different, too.
    
    Virginia

    There may be a legal issue with the child's surname.  With the fathers
    name on the birth certificate, he has certain legal rights to the
    child.  Your sister may want to consider that and speak to a lawyer.  
    
    As far as the different names, it's so common these days that I don't
    think it's an issue at all.
    
    My grandmothers maiden name was Pickup - while I thought it was kind of
    a neat name my friends DID get a kick out of making jokes about it.  Of
    course, my maiden name was Brown during the era of the "Charlie Brown"
    and "Mrs. Brown You've Got a Lovely Daughter" songs -  so I couldn't
    win!
    
    Linda

    re .7 -- very important fact about the legal rights of the father. 
    they can come back years later and say the kid's mine, i don't like
    what you're doing and i want him -- and win!  even if they've never
    done anything in the past relative to the child.  [not my experience,
    fortunately, but one of a friend's]
    
    

    Sound's like there is the definite possiblity of his not being around
    forever...IMO she is better off using her name.  I got married FAR 
    into my pregnancy....all along I had planned to use my name, getting
    married changed that.  But I think if you are on your own...don't drag
    another name/confusion/problems later into your life.  She'll be having 
    to prove the child is her's long after he is out of the picture!  The 
    child will really wonder if it doesn't even know the father why it has
    a stranger's name and not it's mommy's.  I know for sure had I not been 
    married the child would have my name and I would not have regretted it.  
    
    

    Speaking from experience.
    
    She should give the baby HER surname, not the fathers.  I gave my
    oldest son my surname.  Since his birth 7 years ago, I married his
    father, and had two more children by him, and have been divorced for 3
    years.  He has never taken an interest in the kids, except for passing
    fancy now and then.  My oldest son is still Guertin and will remain a
    Guertin.  I had wanted to change his last name to Trainque (the
    father's name) however his father can't seem to find the time to go and
    sign the paperwork needed.  
    
    I have no regrets about giving him my maiden name as his last.  If she
    gives the child his surname, she gives the father rights.  
    
    Kim

    I hesitantly add my 2 cents worth....
    
    She's probably worried about her child being tagged "illegitimate" and
    feels that she "owes" the child a name. I think women get stuck in
    that situation when there is less than unanimous support for the
    pregnancy. Not to mention, she is probably trying to hold onto the
    turkey and trying to deny that he wanted to abort that lovely angel she
    now holds in her arms.
    
    Try to get her to identify her issues.
    
    Also, there are shapters of Single Mothers By Choice in New York,
    Boston, etc. She'd do well to hook up with other single women who tried
    hard to become mothers or who simply took advantage of the unplanned
    pregnancy. Hearing it from woman who are raising children may help.
    
    Wish her luck from this single adoptive parent who sometimes wonders
    how her daughter will feel about not having a father...but figures
    we'll cross that bridge together later.

    My daughter's father and I were not married when we had her. We had
    been living together for a year. When time came to name the baby, we
    gave her,her father's last name. (Well, we figured we would eventually
     get married and at that time thought: If anyone has a problem
    with it, its their tough Sh*t. And we also baptized her with her
    father's last name.   So a few years later..we separate. (did not get
    married). We still kept in touch throughout the years.  I have never
    had any problems with her last name being different from mine. He still
    paid child support (once in a blue moon). And I am told that he is
    financially (if nothing else) responsible for her until she is 18 years
    old. (She's 9 now). 
    
    I"ll be getting married next year..so now of course, my last name will
    change. We were wondering about changing my daughter's last name to my
    fiance's last name. Here's the clincher:(as told to me by my
    manager-attorney): 
    
    Anyone can change their name. All you do is go to the town hall, fill
    out a few papers, perhaps pay a small fee and you're done with it. 
    
    If we wanted for my fiance to legally adopt my daughter, we would have
    to go thru the court system, fill out tons of paperwork, get my ex's
    approval, etc..which will totally release him from any responsibility
    whatsoever for his daughter.   I don't know if he will go for the
    name-changing bit. Anyway, the courts do not recognize "step-father" or
    "stepmother" for that matter as LEGAL terms.   In other words, we can
    go ahead and change my daughers last name to my fiances name, but it
    wouldn't be legal if we didn't go thru an adoption process.
    Incidentally, my ex will still be responsible for child support
    payments even after I'm married.  
    
    Confusing huh?   Like I said, I don't think my ex will approve any
    legal name-changing.   And I suppose we won't worry about that now
    because we just might end up confusing our daughter even more. But it
    would be nice for all of us to have the same last name when I marry. 
                                                                         
    

>    Incidentally, my ex will still be responsible for child support
>    payments even after I'm married.  
    

     In Massachusetts, your ex would be financially responsible until age
     18 or until she's legally adopted. Adoption would even preclude any
     SS benefits due from the father if God forbid anything should happen.
                                                                         
    

    Thats right. Its sort of a "catch 22". Change the name thru the town
    hall and you still can get the benefits of the biological father.
    Change the name thru the adoption process and have zero benefits coming
    in. (including any rights to assets such as a sale of a house or rights
    to land etc... which he has)
    
    

    
    re: .12
    
    I have a question about your daughter's father.  Has he
    been a good caring father?  Or has he shown little interest
    in her?  You mentioned that he pays support "once in a blue
    moon".
    
    The reason for asking is - If I had a child that had my last
    name and I was a good parent, I would be hurt if they wanted
    to change my child's last name.
    
    Years ago I dated a man who was a good father.  His ex-wife
    and him were married at 18 since she was pregnant.  The marriage
    lasted until his daughter was 6 months old.  He always paid the
    child support, picked his daughter up and had her home on time.
    Did everything the courts asked.
    
    His ex-wife remarried when the daughter was 4 .  They asked if he 
    would give up his daughter and allow the step-father to adopt her.  
    He said no.   When his daughter started school they registered 
    her under her step father's last name.   We thought it was strange
    that they never let him see her school papers, or report cards - 
    until when she was in 3rd grade.  Then he found out what they did.
    They went to court and the court ordered them to have all documents
    (both school and medical) changed back to her legal name.   
    
    The father was so hurt because he had tried to be a good father and
    here they were not allowing the daughter to use her real last name.
    They also told her not to tell anyone that the step-father was not
    her real father.   
    
    So the bottom line is if the child's father has never been around,
    the child really loves the step-father and wants to have the same
    last name - no harm is done.  But if the child really loves their
    father, has a good relationship - then this could cause alot of
    hurt and pain.
    
    Jeanne
      

    A friend of mine was in the same situation your sister is.
    
    She met a boy, got pregnant, split up, had the baby.  My friend gave
    her son the fathers last name, even though the father had absolutely
    nothing to do with the baby, the pregnancy or whatever.  
    
    When Karen got engaged to Jim, they asked the lawyer if the son's last
    name could be changed to Jim's last name.  Because the father is on the
    birth certificate and the baby has his last name, Jim cannot adopt the
    baby without his permission.  Nor can they change the baby's last name. 
    The father of the baby hasn't seen him since he was 1 day old.  He left
    town soon after that.
    
    Karen is upset because her son will have the last name of a man who
    doesn't care, and is nowhere around.  Karen, Jim and the baby live in
    NH.
    
    I would tell your sister that if further on down the road if she
    decides to get married, she will have all kinds of legal problems.  I'm
    assuming she won't have as many problems if the child has her last
    name.
    
    Is the father on the baby's birth certificate?
    
    

It seems to me that if a father has completely dropped out of a child's life
and an appropriate search and attempt to find him and get his consent is done,
then a woman's husband should be able, through legal help of course, manage
to adopt the child.

I mean, this doesn't seem any different from other cases of abandonment.

Is this not the case in the U.S.?   I would think the proof is a bit more 
difficult to establish but is probably worth it for the well being of the 
child- unless of course the father doesn't want to give up his rights in
which case he should be paying support, etc.

ccb

    It gets stranger still...did you know that should the mother die 
    before the father, and the mother's will does not state that the father
    is the legal guardian, the father must go to court to prove that he has
    a biological and/or legal claim to the children?  He must apply for 
    legal guardianship of his own flesh and blood.  This applies only to
    Mass. as far as I know.
    
    Cynthia

    Just as an aside ... in Massachusetts, if you are not married to the
    father at birth, you need a notorized letter from the father, in order
    to put his name on the birth certificate!  I guess this is to prevent
    you from putting just anyone's name down.  After all, if they are the
    father it makes them legally responsibile for supporting the child.
    
    Joyce
    
    
    

    Hello, Ian,
    I've done what I shouldn't really do (that is not read the other 
    replies, since I have not had the chance to read my notes/mail in a 
    week)
    But...
    To my knowledge the idea of married couples having different surnames
    is becoming more and more popular as more women keep their maiden name.
    Hence the idea that the child has a different surname than the mother
    is not uncommon. In quebec for instance where I grew up and got married
    women are not even given the choice of taking their husband's surname.
    (I felt cheated by not being given the choice but thats another
    matter).
    Now, I am legally Monica Fett and my daughter is Charlotte Barney.
    As far as odd names are concerned, the kids would find some reason
    to tease the child no matter what the name is - its the ribbing from
    older kids and adults that the person must endure if his/her name
    is odd.
    And yes, our family knows what it is to be ribbed - my Dad especially,
    growing up in germany (for those of you who DON'T know any german,
    the name Fett IS something to get ribbed about).
    As far as the people in this particular instance is concerned - in 
    the end I believe it should be up to the mother - point out to
    her that it is in the child's BEST INTEREST that her decision is
    being made, not how SHE feels about the father or how he feels about
    the situation. 
    And tell her she should be proud to have that baby - congradulate her!
    
    Monica
    

    My daughter has her fathers last name - Same situation - we were not
    married when she was born - still aren't....I felt like it was the
    right thing to do and I haven't had any problems as of yet....
    Once in a while I'll get a letter addressed to Mrs. Smith - or a phone
    call saying the same....but to me that's no big deal...
    
    I feel that as long as you know (as much as you can know I guess) that
    the father is going to take responsibility for the baby - it's okay
    to give the baby his last name - If he takes off or is bound to take
    off - that's another story...
    
    I know Samantha's father is proud to have her be a Smith!  and I
    like that!!!!!!
    
    Just my .02...
    
    

    My son's father and I were never married.  My son has his father's last
    name.  My son's father is not listed on his birth certificate.  We are
    no longer together.  So far, other than lot's of questions as to why, I 
    have had no problems with my son having a different last name than my own. 
    One of the big reasons why my son'sfather is not listed on his birth 
    certificate is because, as an earlier noter mentioned, in the state of 
    Mass., if you're not married, you need to have a notarized letter from the 
    father before this can be done and we felt that it was just another hassle.
    The reason I gave my son his father's last name is because at the time,
    we had talked about getting married some day and I felt it would save us a 
    big headache of having to change my son's name later on.  Also, I
    always hated my last name while growing up and only use it when
    absolutely necessary, so I didn't want to inflict it on my son (I think
    a lot of it is because I associate my last name with my father, which
    is another whole topic).
    
    Lori B.