Conference moira::parenting

    Virginia,
    
    Get yourself a lawyer, but I don't think your ex will get anywhere with
    this.  Speaking as a second wife, there is NO LEGAL CONNECTION between
    visitation and child support.  He cannot deny or lower your child
    support because of a disagreement over visitation.
    
    Custody could be another matter.  If he were granted permanent custody,
    the child support arrangement would obviously change.  If the two of
    you decided to share custody, it would also change the support
    arrangement.  However, at least on the surface, it doesn't sound to me
    like he has anything to stand on here, as far as being able to force
    a change on you.  Please get a lawyer -- a call from YOUR legal
    representative might just put a quiet end to this matter.
    
    Good luck
    Beth

    I have gone through this situation and it's not pleasant, however
    speaking from experience there is no way he's going to get custody.  My
    ex tried this this year because since he didn't meet his financial
    responsibilities for our 3 children I had to give custody of my sons to
    my family until I can get back on my feet financially.  He was told
    about the situation, and was told about my family taking the boys and I
    would keep our daughter with me, he did nothing.  8 Months later after
    NO contact with the boys (which is typical) he decided he wanted
    custody.  My lawyer informed his lawyer what he could do with that idea
    and stated all the legal reasons why we would fight it.  It was
    dropped.  
    
    I'd say from the sound of it your ex is trying to scare you.  Hire a
    lawyer tell him no way will you agree to any change, and if he's still
    messing around with your child support threaten to have his pay
    attached.  I did that to my ex so I now receive my child support on a
    regular basis since his employer is the one responsible for making sure
    I receive it.  That will usually take the wind out of their sails.
    
    Good luck and I understand what you're goinng through.  If it wasn't
    for my kids I'd have thrown the towel in a long long time ago.
    
    Feel free to send me mail if you want to talk.
    
    Kim

    Virginia - also remember that there should be court transcripts of the
    original hearing that are available to you and your lawyer.  Use them
    if you have to in order to show the lawyer what the situation was like
    when it all began.
    
    -sandy
    

    Thank you all,
    
    	I realy didn't think he had a case.  The whole thing started a
    while ago but I just didn't notice what he was up to.  Some how we had
    gotten on the subject of how much I make.  Soon we were arguing about
    the support.  He said his lawer had told him the amount is determined
    by how much he makes and *his* cost of living.  I said that was a crock
    of sh*t, why would they go by his cost of living when Tyler was with me
    and I was paying for the majority of his care.  What I get for support
    now doesn't even cover Ty's daycare expenses for the month.
    	The problem with getting his wages attached is he works for a
    family friend in a oil pipe company.  He is paid in cash.  I get my
    support in the form of cashiers checks and he doesn't have a checking
    account.  I realy have no way to monitor what he is making.  If anyone
    tries to find out where he is working, the guy denies he works there or
    says he doesn't pay him.  Belive me, I have tried to find out for
    myself.  The man is a welder, he isn't certified, but they still make
    $10 to $12 an hour.  If he gets certified, he will be making double
    that at least.  And the real flamer of all this is he is Getting a new
    truck and an Arc Welder outfit.  I can barely afford to put gas in my
    66' Mustang let alone buy a new car.
    	I don't care if my son ever gets to know his father.  I do want him
    to have the benifits of a dad, but not at the expense of my piece of
    mind.
    
    Virginia

    I heard that through the IRS, it is possible to have your ex-husbands 
    tax refunds go directly to you. Information on this is available
    through the Boston office as well as any courthouse.  I hate people who
    try to "sneak" away from their financial responsibilities! I haven't as
    yet tried this, but I'm quite tempted.  He can't hide from this as
    everyone HAS to file income tax papers every year.     

    
    	This may be nit-picking, but what if he isn't getting anything back
    but owes the governmant?  My real problem isn't that I don't get the
    support at all, Its just always late and a little short.  I do keep a
    record of what is owed and since November of 89', when we separated, he
    owes me over $4000.00 in back support!  
    	All the stuff about taking back his son and having his "lawer"
    change the support was just to see if I am as dumb as he is.  Not!!!
    
    	I have talked to a judge, and untill he gets court papers, nothing
    is going to change.  The man doesn't even call or write, I cant see him
    going to the effort to have papers go through the court.
    
    			Virginia

    Maybe you should see about getting your support money taken out of his
    paycheck each week or how ever often he gets paid.  My brother used to
    do this for my x sister-in-law and know since he has custody of the
    kids she does it for him.  They say it makes it easer, cause they don't
    have to worry about mailing it out each week.  I also know a couple of 
    guys who's x wives have done this to them.
    
    
    Maybe you should talk to your lawyer about this.
    
    Liz
      

    
    
    This is kind of an update.
    
    	Nothing legal or unlegal has happened lately.  I recieved a
    envelope from my X yesterday.  It contained the money orders but
    nothing else.  My son knows what daddy's hadwriting looks like and
    wanted to know where his letter from daddy was.  I killed me because I
    said, "sorry honey, he did send anything this time."  My son droped his
    head and walked off with the envelope in his hand.  About five minutes
    later he gave me the envelope and asked if I would put it in the trash.
    
    	This made me cry.  I don't care for the man very much anymore, but
    he could at least send some kind of note for his son.
    
    
    		Virginia

    
    
    Hi Virginia,
    
    	I don't know what to say except I feel for your son, and try
    to remember they say "what goes around comes around" so I hope your
    X gets what he deserves.  One way or the other.  Good luck.  
    
    
    Lisa

    Just a quick note, on another side of this issue--remember not to gain
    too much support from your children!  My mom occasionally did, and gave
    me a sense of responsibility for her dramatically out of line with my
    tender age...they love us too much to see us hurt, and will take on
    whatever issues possible to alleviate our problems.  As hard as it is,
    don't let them take the brunt!  I know, it can be hard to even take a
    moment to call an adult to 'cry' on, but you need to.  That said, do
    also explain your feelings--letting him know your MAD justifies his
    anger, instead of hiding it.  Their thought process goes something like
    this--I love my daddy and can not be mad at him, but I hate him right
    now, and so I'm a bad person...
    
    Many too manyfeelings of mine wrapped up in this...someday, we'll all
    be happy and well adjusted!
    
    Best regards,
    Adrienne
    

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

I am writing in regards to a young woman very close to me went into a deep
depression two years ago after the birth of her son.  She ended up having
her four children taken away from her before they were able to diagnose her
as manic-depressive.  She is now getting the medical/psychological help
she needs.  However she is finding it very difficult to overcome because
she needs to know that she can get her children back.  Her son's father
picked up and moved to Floria with her son (2 years old) and will NOT let
her know where he is or if he is even all right.

There must be somebody out there that can point us to a group that can
help.  She is out on Social Security right now and when she tries to
contact any authorities (sheriff's office, etc) she is told there is 
nothing she can do.  I pray to God this is not the case.  

I really would like to be able to direct her to a group that could help her. 

I have looked through the parenting notes file and the non-custodial 
notes file but could not find a pointers to my particular problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    
    Contact someone at the Alliance for the Mentally Ill.  You can
    probably find a number in the Community Services pages of your
    phone book.  In my phone book (Nashua) it lists the number for 
    the chapter in NH 1-800-242-6264.  Someone there should be able
    to help her.
    
    .......................beth

    
    Also, try crossposting your request in QUOKKA::PSYCHOLOGY.
    
    ......................beth

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

I am in the midst of planning family life after divorce.  Since both of us
are very active in our parenting roles, I am assuming that the children will
spend near equal time with each of us after the physical separation and
divorce.

I would like to ask if anyone has experience they could share in setting up a
visitation schedule where one parent works a 9-5,M-F job and one works a
swing shift which includes some day shifts, some night shifts, some weekends,
and some weekdays, averaging 40/week.  I hope that we both find homes in the
same school district.  The parent with the rotating schedule has no family in
the area who could house the children overnight.

Is it better to have a schedule with the same days each week, and for the
parent with the rotating shift to find appropriate help?  Obviously harder on
the parent, but all the reading I've done indicates that predictable
visitation is best for young (elementary school age) children.  

The following is being posted as a reply to the basenote for a member
of the PARENTING community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  
If you wish to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I
will forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise. 

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

I have 2 children (5&7) and have been separated for 2 years. 
We have a shared custody arrangement.  I believe that set scheduled time is
best.  It has worked very well for us.  We split the week 50/50 and alternate
weekends.  It turns out that we each parent 50%.   I started out with a
calendar that was posted where the kids could always see on each day it either
had an "M" or "D".  Many times in the beginning my oldest would check the
calendar to see where he would be on the weekend.  After awhile they always
know the schedule.  I feel that is comforting to them.  It is more comforting
for the parent as well if the children don't keep asking when they are going to
see Mom/Dad. 

As for being in the same school district.  It depends on before/after school
arrangements most.  My ex-spouse lives in the district where my children go to
school.  I have lived as far as 15 miles and as close as 2 miles.  Currently
I'm 8-10 miles away.  It works for us.  I don't mind driving them to school as
they can get into school at 8am and I'm at work for 8:15.  So, no problem.

My biggest suggestion to you is to get the whole arrangement worked out to both
of your satisfaction, then go with it and make sure it works for at least 6
months before you go to court.  We came close to having the judge telling us no
way.  I had to convince her that it was okay and had been working well.  I had 
to get letters from the childrens teachers at Daycare & Kindergarten as well 
as from the Pedi stating they they knew of the arrangements and all seemed
well.  The judge was concerned that we would end up back in court in a few 
months and they would have to award custody to only one of us. One day I may 
have to revisit this but for now them being in Elementary school, it works.
My kids do occasionally voice their dislike at travelling between both homes. 
It's nice though.  They truly have 2 homes and we don't get that going to
"visit" statement that is so common in most arrangements.

Best of luck to you and feel free to contact me off line through Carol.

    
    I have 3 children, but only 2 that apply to this situation.  We have
    had shared custody for 3 1/2 years, and it's worked quite well.  At
    first we alternated every other day during the week, and they stayed w/
    their dad on most Sat nights.  When we needed to rearrange things to
    meet different schedules, we just did.  
    
    Then we switched to a split week.  As it stands now, I have the boys
    (they're 9.5 and almost 7) from either Sunday night until I drop them
    at school on Wednesday morning.  They're w/ their Dad from Wed. night
    to Saturday evening, and then Saturday night is up for grabs.  
    
    As for the children .... they seem to prefer having a "chunk" of time
    with each of us instead of splitting every day.  It was Insane going
    the every-other-day route because they'd always forget SOMEthing that
    they needed at the other parents' house.  This way we only have to deal
    with "the switch" a couple times a week.  
    
    When "other" things come up - Drs, b.day parties, whatever, the parent
    who is normally supposed to have them, usually just deal with it. 
    Sometimes that doesn't work out, but we get along well enough to work
    around our schedules a little if need be.
    
    Vacations - that's a little tougher, because you can end up with the
    kids for several weeks in a row, and not visiting the other parent at
    all if you're not careful how you work out the schedule.
    
    Other things to keep in mind;
    
    o How will you handle their b.day?  Two b.days?  One big one and just
    tough it out w/ the Ex for the day?
    o How do you handle holidays?  We're lucky.  This works with both
    families - their dad's family tends to lean towards Christmas Eve for
    their celebration, my family does Christmas day.  This year we did;
    
    Christmas Eve day and Eve at paternal grandparents
    Christmas early morning at Dad's.
    Christmas morning ~11:00 at Mom's
    Christmas lunch at with maternal Grandpa Mom's
    Christmas afternoon/supper/evening at maternal Grandma's
    Day after Christmas w/ the baby's "other side" (paternal family and half
    siblings).
    
    It gets a little nuts, but it worked out in the end.  
    
    I've found that it's best to each come up with your own ideas, and then
    if there's a way to mesh the two ideas, great.  If not, each do your
    own thing, and that's the end of it.  
    
    A lot depends on if both parents can provide similar lifestyles, and if
    you can easily duplicate the things that mean the most to the child. 
    Do you both have a decent place for them?  To sleep/eat/do homework?
    If you are pretty equal on those kinds of things, the kids can probably
    deal with a schedule that changes somewhat.
    
    The biggest thing you can do is WRITE IT DOWN so they can see when
    they're supposed to be where.  
    
    As for the school district .... I have never lived in my children's
    school district (when they were old enough to go to school).  Since I
    left the house, we've kept the house as their "official" address, and
    I've just done whatever was necessary to get them to school.  I am
    currently about 7 miles from their school.  I used to be ~30 miles. 
    The hardest thing about being out of the school district is a)dealing
    with unexpected traffic and getting them to school on time and b)you
    have NO public transportation, so you've got to be sure to be
    responsible for pickup/dropoff or make other arrangements.
    
    If the kids are in daycare after school, this could get interesting
    with the other parents' swing shift.  Presumably some weeks you
    wouldn't need afterschool care - how does the provider deal with this?
    
    If you would like any more info, please feel free to contact me!
    
    Patty

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

I have been divorced for a couple of years now and have physical custody
of our child.  My question is, as I understand it, if I am to move out
of the state in which we currently live in, I need permission from the
other parent.  I have spoken with the other parent, and I now have that
"permission".  

My question is:  What type of "proof" do I need of that
permission being given?  Will a notarized signed and dated letter from the 
other parent be enough?

I have a phone call into my lawyer, but haven't heard back yet.  I am
sure that there must be others out there who have been through this situation
and could possibly give me some advice.

          I have a question in regards to a situation my girlfriend is
    going through at present. Her ex took her kids to FOXWOODS last
    saturday. When they got there he sent the boys ages 8 and 10 to the
    arcade while he and his girlfriend went to a casino to gamble. The
    10 yearl old has behavioural problems and has the cognitive reasoning
    of a 6 year old. When my girlfriend found out what he'd done she 
    called to talk to him about it. Well it seems that he's been doing 
    this for years... Whether it be a trip to Disney or Six Flags they 
    all go their separate way and try to meet at a designated time. She 
    and I are both pretty upset by this. I know when I have my children, 
    I'm divorced too, visitation means going off and doing things as a 
    cohesive family unit. Even though my children are a bit older ages 
    11-15 I'd never go to a strange place and dump them so I could have 
    fun elsewhere. My girlfriends lawyer feels an ammendment to her 
    decree is in order to prevent this from happening again. While the 
    kids therapist ,the dad's an alcoholic and has messed them up pretty 
    badly, didn't see anything wrong with the situation.This in spite of 
    the fact that the 8 year old admitted he was scared being left in 
    such a busy place with no way to get dad if he needed him. Am I
    overreacting to this situation?
    
    bob  
    

...but getting a change in behavior on the part of the dad is not
going to be easy, especially if the boy's therapist is not supportive.

I suggest you separate the two issues I see here: 1. "*I*(bob) wouldn't
want to do anything other than be with my kids when I see them"; and
2) the real problem of leaving an 8 year old in the charge of a 10 year
old (regardless of the maturity level of a 10 year old).  

The first issue is emotional, to be sure (I sure as heck expected my
ex to want to actually spend time with my daughter), but is outside the
purview of legal agreements. 

The second, however, is a real concern: considering that the entire current
"missing and endangered children" movement was sparked by the case of
Adam, a boy who was left at a shopping mall, kicked out by a guard, kidnapped
and murdered,  I don't think that you will get too many judges who won't
agree that the two boys must be under the watchful eye of a responsible
adult at all times.

Good luck!

Bobbi

    
    In a lot of states, it's illegal to leave a child under 12,
    unsupervised by an adult.  Check out the laws, if you're looking for
    pure FACT to back up your feelings.
    
    My kids are 10, 7 and 22 mos.  I have ONCE let Chris (the 10 yr old)
    ride the 1/4 mile to 7-11 on his bike, alone (about 1/week, the 2 older
    ones both ride down together, again me waiting/watching) ... and that
    was with me panicked the whole time, waiting for him to come back.  I
    couldn't imagine letting them go off in a strange place like that and
    being at ALL comfortable about it.
    
    Here's a "true story" ... nothing that BAD, but it was upsetting to us
    all, nonetheless.  There's basically 2 routes to take to get to 7-11.
    We *ALWAYS* take the same one, whether we walk, ride, drive etc.  The
    boys went down to pick up some milk.  Right after they left, the fire
    alarm in our building went off.  The fire trucks have to come down the
    street they were riding up, and I was concerned that they'd be scared.
    SOoooooooooooo, I walked down to 7-11 to meet up with them.  WELL, I'm
    walking and walking thinking "I should have seen them by now!", and
    getting more and more worried.  I made it all the way to the store, and
    the lady remembered them being there, but I'd missed them.  Walking
    back, I STILL didn't see them anywhere.  I RAN all the way home,
    worried that something had happened to them (a parent's worse fear,
    right?)
    
    I got close to our street, and there was Jason(7) running down the road
    towards me, crying his eyes out.  And Chris was inside trying to call
    his dad.
    
    What had happened was, they saw the trucks, so decided to take the
    OTHER route home from the store ... which meant we essentially
    walked/rode past each other.  They got home, and weren't allowed in
    right away (by the F.D.) because the alarms were still going off, and
    were convinced that the place was on fire, and I was burning up inside.
    They asked EVERYONE if they knew where I was.  If there'd been a fire,
    it would have caused the F.D. to go hunting for me, when I was actually
    quite fun (though upset).  They were totally stressed out about it all,
    and so was I.
    
    That all happened inside of about 10 mins, and within 1/4 mile.  Many
    of these parks/resorts are MUCH larger than that, and certainly more
    confusing!!  *IF* there were a 'disaster', how could her children meet
    up with their dad?  
    
    Take it one level closer to home .... if you and your S.O. head into
    Boston for 1st Night or something -- HOW would you feel if you got
    separated??  And they had the keys?  And all the money?  And the
    calling card number?  And the address of where you live?  And you had
    nothing at all except the shirt on your back, and your 'other' S.O.'s
    address and phone number? (which is probably states away from you).
    That's the situation those kids are in, and it's at the very best, very
    dangerous.
    
    No, you're not overreacting!!  There's a difference between cautious
    and complacent.  
    
    -Patty