Conference moira::parenting

   Wow... no suggestions, really, since my kids are a bit younger and I
   haven't had to deal with this yet... just a comment - I hope I can be
   as rational with my kids when they get old enough for this sort of
   behaviour..
   
   - Tom
   

Maybe I did fine.  I hope I nipped it in the bud.  But I worry so because I
really don't trust him anymore.  This is a major failing to me that I have lost
so much confidence in him and that I feel like I can't trust him.

How do I keep from checking up on him and rebuilding his character?  I have not
suggested to him that he is a "bad" boy or anything but I made sure that he 
knew what he did was wrong.  But how do I now go from the strict controls
I've put onto him to allowing him more freedom?

Were my punishments severe enough?  Too severe?  This is really hard for me
because I find it so difficult to be hard with my boys.

ccb

Cheryl:

I think MOST kids do these things at least once in their development years.
I know I did!  I took a roll of nickels from my folks (dresser drawer, I think)
and got similar consequences ... pay it back, extra chores, lost privileges
... not to mention a long peptalk about "how can I ever trust you again?"

I asked my mother what I needed to do to win back her "faith and trust" and
her words were "you earn them ... and when you violate them, it takes a whole
heck of a lot more to gain the ground back ... only YOU can do it ...
work at it ...".

Just a few years back I remember my Mom saying ... "one thing I know, Dottie,
your word is good and I can depend on your honesty ... you never tell white
lies and you never sweet-talk your way around me ... you may not solicit
the information, however, when confronted, I trust your word completely ...".
I remember as a young adolescent my Mom and Dad always saying "faith and
honesty is a foundation to your existence ... without it, you will fail"
and my folks ALWAYS took into consideration "honesty" when invoking punishment
... believe me!, we learned at an early age that the punishment would be
much less severe if we 'fessed up ... than if we were sought out and proven
wrong!  I got caught a few times (white lies), enough to actually believe that
my folks had eyes in the back of their heads and networking from our house
to California!  I learned "very young" that there were few things my folks
didn't "find out" about ... so I began to fear their disappointment and hurt
if I did lie, such that I began to tell the truth, even if it hurt them ...
and in the end ... hurt me!  It was part of growing up.

Now I realize it my folks didn't have extra eyes and a guardian angel ...
they could "see it (lies and deceit) in our eyes and behavior".

So, I think Mark has learned a valuable lesson ... one most of us have
learned as well ... and he has just added some strength to his foundation
... and you did great, Cheryl!  I hope I can be as strong as you were ...
as it must have hurt YOU more than HIM to take his money, but some of the
best lessons learned are the HARD ONES!

Kidos to you!

Dottie

    My Mom is a retired elementary school teacher and guidance counselor. 
    I'm not sure how old your son is, but he still sounds like an
    adolescent.  I would also take a guess that Markus is more of a
    follower than a leader?  
    
    My take on this, from conversations with my Mom and my own readings, is
    that your son IS relieved.  The influence of a troubled child can
    be quite strong on another child, and was probably causing your child
    some inner turmoil (which may be why he was surly -- perhaps he was a
    bit disappointed you couldn't figure out what he was up to, thus ending
    it sooner?  Something he felt powerless to do himself?)
    
    I think separating them was an excellent idea.  I would also encourage
    that your child strengthen friendships with other neighborhood children
    that seem more stable.  In the long run, if Markie sees himself being
    "leftout" unless playing in a larger group of friends where "good"
    behaviour rules (larger groups of children are probably less easily
    manipulated than one single child), it may encourage more appropriate 
    behaviour.... But this is only a guess on my part...
    
    I don't think you were too strict at all.  My sister was a real rebel,
    and was handled the same way.  It seemed to stop the undesired
    behaviour.
    
    Susan

I'm having a real time of things with my 10-year-old.

The issue is trust  - lying and stealing, etc.

Over the last 6 months he's taken money from a couple of folks, lied about
just about everything, and goes into my room to poke around looking for
Chanukah gifts (he's found some and I'm inclined to not give them to him
now).

I feel compelled to react by locking my door, not believing him,
hiding money, but I want to change the way things are.  I want to help him to
not need to lie and steal and sneak and I'm afraid that if I react by
locking doors and hinding things I'm just perpetuating the problem.

Any suggestions?

Thanx

Caryn

    
    Caryn,
    
    I can't give you any advise, but I read in another note
    that you have a baby/toddler.  Did these problems begin
    after the baby's birth?
    
    Perhaps he is looking for attention.  If these are your
    only two children this has to be a big adjustment for
    him.   He has had you all to himself for so long, it
    must be hard for him to share you.
    
    Jeanne
     
    
    

    You may not be able to help him not need to do those things.  They are
    for some a part of growing up.  A test of his own abilities and maybe
    even a test to see what the boundaries are and what he can and cannot
    get away with.  Maybe a reafirmation of who/what/where he is in your
    life.  I went thru this when I was a kid.  I don't know why I did it,
    it wasn't looking for attention (that I know of, but boy did I get it),
    but let me tell you what cured me!  One time I was blamed for having
    done something I SAW my sister do.  I tried to convince my parents it
    wasn't me, but for my previous record, I couldn't get them to belive
    me.  I swore then I would never lie and it has worked for me.  I was
    very scared and angry that my parents wouldn't believe me when I was
    telling the truth.  It took a long time to get them to trust me again. 
    I try to tell my kids the seriousness of their lying by giving them
    this example and impressing on them that it is a big deal when someone
    doesn't trust you. 
    
    RE:  finding gifts early - who does he ruin it for?  Mostly himself!
    Don't worry about that as much as the fact that he was someplace he
    doesn't belong!  One year my sister and I locked ourselves in the
    closet and opened and rewrapped all our gifts.  Christmas morning was a
    real bummer that year!  It was the only time we ever did that!!!
    
    -sandy
    

Thanx, Jeanne,

There are several circumstances that can be blamed for this behavior - new
baby (now toddler), blended family, bio-dad who never visits, but they do not
excuse the behavior.  It is still NOT OK for him to lie, steal, and nose
around my private things, and the behavior still needs to stop.

If his behavior is a reflection of low self-esteem or insecurity, what as
a parent can I do to help?

~Caryn

.2> but for my previous record, I couldn't get them to belive
.2> me.  I swore then I would never lie and it has worked for me.  I was
.2> very scared and angry that my parents wouldn't believe me when I was
.2> telling the truth.  It took a long time to get them to trust me again. 
.2> I try to tell my kids the seriousness of their lying by giving them
.2> this example and impressing on them that it is a big deal when someone
.2> doesn't trust you. 
    

    We have tried to impress this concept upon him for *years*, and he
still doesn't get it.  Even when I tell him, "I don't believe you because
all the evidence suggests you're lying, and knowing that you've lied in the
past makes it impossible for me to believe you now", he continues to lie.

    Just yesterday he lied about doing something that we KNEW he did, and
although we pointed out to him all the facts and how it is impossible that
he DIDN'T do it, he still insisted he was innocent (and it wasn't even
something he'd have been punished for, although he probably felt a bit
embarrassed).

    Sean knows the story of the "Little boy who cried wolf" inside out, and
gets upset when we don't believe him, but he still lies constantly.

    I also went through the lying/stealing phase as a kid, with
surprisingly few repercussions, and grew out of it somehow (as I did all my
bad habits of youth ;^), but I'm ready to ground this kid for the
rest of eternity!!!

	As for the presents, he'll snoop until he finds his gifts, and then
say "Oh, I'd really love a ... for Chanukah".  I'd think what a great mom I
am to have so accurately gauged my son's desires, until I figure out that
he snooped, and then I get angry. He's done it on several occasions.

	I've decided to not give him the gift he found, just as a lesson
against snooping.

    If I knew the answer I wouldn't be dealing with the same stuff from my
    two.  From my position I can honestly say, be thankful he doesn't have
    an identical twin!!  I have nine year-old twin girls who are in trouble
    about 98% of the time lately.  They both lie, sneak, steal (from me),
    rummage through my closet and drawers, talk back with EXTREMLY fresh
    mouths and argue when told to do something.  One big problem I have is who
    did what when!  Something is missing from my dresser,  I know one of
    them has helped themselves.  Who did it??  They both say "Not me" and
    then proceed to blame the other one..   So, since I can't tell who is
    lying and who is telling the truth from situation to situation I wind
    up punishing both of them.  Now, I know most of this behavour is 
    just a stage that will pass, if I don't totally flip-out with
    frustration we should make it on to the next exasperating stage.
    
    

>    We have tried to impress this concept upon him for *years*, and he
>still doesn't get it.  Even when I tell him, "I don't believe you because
>all the evidence suggests you're lying, and knowing that you've lied in the
>past makes it impossible for me to believe you now", he continues to lie.
    
    I think you may have hit upon the problem yourself in exactly these
    lines.  Now, please understand, that I am not a psychologist, I'm just
    another parent, from a family that wen't through some of this kind of
    thing.  The lines that follow are not meant at all in any way to be
    judgemental of you, they are just some ideas that you can decide your
    self whether the description might fit ... and then remember that
    because each child is different and has their own personality, the
    same 'parenting" may produce an ideally behaved child ...  
    
    He sees that you have no faith or trust in him, so why should he have 
    any faith or trust in himself.  He no longer has any positive
    self-confidence.  To get attention, he has found the easiest way
    is to do something negative.  He has no faith in positive comments
    from you ... "You were good to do xyz ... ","yeah sure, you're just
    saying that" He will tend to minimize them, or twist them.  In many
    ways, this kind of behaviour is like depression.
    
    I think that the best way to deal with this would be some family
    counselling ... (whether the scenarion above is accurate or not) ...
    and your son could probably do with positive reinforcement of his
    self-image.  In essence you have to display honest and open feelings
    for the positive acts and try and reinforce those as good, while
    still maintaining the idea that bad behaviour is not acceptable.
    
    The other important thing is to ensure that you separate the behaviour
    from the child.  i.e. when he lies or steals that you indicate that
    it is the ACT that is unacceptable ... not the child.  It is very
    difficult for your child to understand when you tell him off that
    you are not rejecting him when you reject his behaviour.  If you ask
    him why he lies or steals, he won't know ... he wants attention ...
    then he gets it ... negative ... which makes him feel unsatisfied
    which makes him crave attention more so he does something bad, which
    gets him more attention ...
    
    One book  read describes this behaviour in adult depressive as
    "I'll bend over so you can kick me again".
    
    You might want to try reading a couple books that might help you
    communicate with your son ... "How to Talk so your Kids will Listen
    and How to Listen so your Kids will Talk" or something like that ...
    it's a popular paperback ... "Parent Effectiveness Training", which
    is also offered as a parenting course in many places, and also,
    "Siblings without Rivalry"
    
    Good luck,
    
    Stuart
    
    

This is going to be long but I hope it is useful for you.

I am still going through occasional bouts of this with Markus but it is
improving.  I have taken some fairly drastic actions.

Mostly MArkus was stealing money from my purse.  He stole a few items from a
nearby shop.  He lies frequently.  He does things around the house that he 
won't own up to.  Here is how I have been handling this and I think I have
had a certain amount of success although it is not like he just stopped.  Things
happen less frequently.

1. I never punish him unless I am sure that he did the deed.  But if I'm sure
   and he has lied about it, the punishment is a zillion times more severe.

2. I love him incredibly much and he knows this.  So the worst punishment in
   the world is the long horrible day after day talk until I am convinced that
   he knows he has done something wrong and knows that he has disappointed me
   very very much and he owns up.  Then together we decide on the punishment.

3. The punishments suit the "crime".  In the case of stealing money from me
   he had to pay it all back with a fine on top of it.  He had to do extra
   work around the house to make the money to pay me back and all his pocket
   money was used to pay me until the debt was settled.  Then he was not 
   allowed any money of his own.  His allowance was kept by me and only paid
   out for each specific purchase under my supervision. (Terribly embarrasing
   for him).  Slowly, I was able to give him responsibility for his allowance
   again.

   Additionally he had to give up television and playing with the boy who was
   getting into trouble with him (this because the other little boy also lied
   to me).  The other boy's parents agreed.  There were quite a few other
   things like taking away favorite toys, agreeing to constructive replacement
   activities like reading, etc. not leaving the house without permission.

   Anything he bought with stolen money was confiscated and I've given it
   away.

4. For stealing from the shop.  For a VERY long time he was not allowed to go
   into ANY shop and if he was, it was only in my company and he had to stay
   with me.  I would have made him suffer the shame of taking the stolen 
   goods back but in Switzerland that would result in a permanent criminal 
   record.  I found him with a little electronic game and I went ballistic.
   I threw it on the ground, stamped it to bits, and threw it in the garbage
   saying that I WILL NOT HAVE STOLEN GOODS IN MY HOUSE.  I made him pay the
   shop (through me) for what he had taken.  (Since I seldom shout, my anger
   scared him out of his wits.)

   Slowly he has been allowed to enter shops again, in the beginning with a
   specific amount of money to buy a specific item and I will now let him go
   with me and look around on his own again.

5. I have removed the opportunity for him to steal.  I look more closely after
   my purse.  I would have no problem with locking the doors to rooms or 
   closets and I would tell him why ("You have shown me that I can't trust you
   so this door stays locked until you grow up.")  Same things with going to
   shops or having money. 

But I think the biggest thing is that you have to keep after them ALL THE TIME
when there are likely to do such things.  I know in the beginning that I wanted
to deny to myself that my boy was stealing.  Then look on it as any other
behavior problem that you have to overcome.  If it gets beyond your control,
get professional help before it's too late.

(By the way, I am sure that Markus doesn't do this for attention.  He lies
because he really wants things to be different than the facts (he lives a bit
in a dream world).  And his explanation for stealing is that "he really really
wanted it".  We're both working on that part of his character. :-)

Much much luck and patience.  I know how hard this is.  I have been there.

Cheryl

    I would second Cheryl's suggestions in .12 and add that we had a
    (fortunately) short bout with stealing with one of my sons and that we
    made him bring the item back to the store and give it back.  I like to
    think the embarassment cured him.
    
    You never mentioned that I recall any punishment applied...but you did
    mention that you talk to him alot, which is definitely required.  If
    you haven't already used discipline, I would recommend it.  If you do
    use punishment it needs to be consistent, firm and fair....and never
    change your mind and remove it after deciding, which is a *constant*
    temptation (guilt is soooo strong).
    
    Also, the think that struck me about Cheryl's comments re the "dream
    world" and wanting to think things are what they are not (if that makes
    sense) is that you had mentioned that he lies even when confronted with
    the obvious.  Perhaps he actually has convinced himself that the lie is
    the truth. 
    
    I also second what one person said about counseling as a possibility. 
    We were having some apparently unrelated, but more severe problems
    years after the stealing incident with one of our sons and eventually
    ended up in marriage counseling and one of the things that *could* have
    contributed to the problems our son was having was problems that my
    wife and I were having....problems we didn't realize we had, but were
    being acted out in different ways.
    
    My son (@12-13 at the time) ended up in counselling also, with a
    separate counselor and all has turned out very well (well,
    almost....his girlfriend is pregnant with his child...but he's dealing
    with it as well as can be expected.).
    
    Jim (There is no June and Ward Cleaver)

    Well, I've had to deal with this with my boys, but only on a single
    occassion, and they're much younger.  The problem was not stealing, but
    swearing and lying about it.
    
    I was not sure what was true, and who had said what, and when.  I
    separated the two children so that all that they could hear was if I
    raised my voice to the other one.  I went back and forth between the
    two of them until I got the WHOLE story, and the stories matched.  THAT
    took a while!!  Interestingly enough, the one who tattled about the
    incident was more guilty than his brother.
    
    I couldn't think of a suitable punishment because I was SO infuriated
    with both of them.  I lied constantly as a child, and I remember
    thinking how "fun" it was that my parents could never tell the
    difference.  I could see the same kind of look in their eyes.
    
    With them still separated, I asked each of them what was their favorite
    things to do/play with, and made them each list about 5-6 things.  I
    picked the 3 things that I thought were the most suitable, and they
    were denied for the next week.  We talked about it a lot, and I told
    all the people who interact with them, in front of them, about their
    "crimes".  They have not even ATTEMPTED to fib again ...
    
    Jason (4) did make an interesting comment a few days later, to his
    brother - "That was a pretty good trick Mom did, getting us to tell her
    what we like, huh?"  
    
    Also, any violation of the "forbidden" object resulted in another day
    without it, and subsequent violations doubled the extended time
    without.  They got the idea REAL fast!
    
    The one thing that did come to mind was the Cosby episode where Theo
    gets caught lying, and his dad promises he won't hit him if he tells
    the truth, and so Theo fesses up.  They decide an appropriate
    punishment, and talk about it.  As his dad is about to leave the room,
    he hits Theo.  Theo, QUITE surprised and offended says "I thought you
    said you wouldn't Hit Me!"  .... Dad's reply .... "I LIED!"  Got the
    point across anyway.
    
    As for the Christmas gift, we have another rule .... if you go looking,
    and find a present, you don't get it.  Period.  If you know someone
    else's present, and you tell them what it is, then you lose TWO of your
    presents.  It may be "bribery" in a way, but then it DOES promote
    honesty, and it does teach them that for every dishonest action, there
    will be a punishment that VERY much affects them.  I have all of the
    kids Christmas gifts in a couple LARGE boxes in my bedroom, and neither
    one of them would DARE to look.  I NEED to be able to trust them, and
    so far, they seem to understand that it works both ways.
    
    In this case, it does appear that some sort of counseling might be
    helpful.  If you need to "sneak" him in there (personally, I think you
    should just put your foot down and say YOU'RE GOING!), you could go and
    say that they counselor needs to talk to your son to help work through
    some of your problems or something (but then you're lying .....)
    
    Good Luck!
    I wouldn't just ignore it and say "it'll pass!" though ....
    
    Patty

After I've run Markus through the wringer on one of these things and we've
decided on his punishment, what amazes me is the change in his attitude and
the uplifting of his spirit.  I can tell when (for this time at least) he
has really told all and accepted all because of the relief he shows in "paying"
for his crimes.  I know that deep in his mind there is a bit of his character
which keeps nagging him and making him unpleasant and nasty until he can 
confess and pay the penalty.  Then he is back to my normal smiling happy boy
(until the next time).

This, by the way, is the first indication that I get that he's been up to no
good- the change in his personality.

The one thing I _never_ do is let his brother overhear the discussions and for
what Markus is being punished (and vice versa).  I am sure that neither one
is beneath stooping to blackmail of the other :-)  Ah, sibling rivalry!

Cheryl

    Trying to help...
    
    Is he having this problem as an attention getter due to the missing
    bio-dad???  "If I act bad, maybe 'Dad' will come back."
    
    Another suggestion. The old "what's good for the goose is good for the
    gander" ploy.
    
    You probably know something he'd really like. To go to see the Celtics,
    or something ***massively*** special. Tell him you're going to take
    him. Let him get it good and built up. Wait for him to ask about it.
    
    "Huh? I never said that!"
    
    Let _him_ be on the other end of the lying and see how he feels.
    Really play it up big. Just as big as he does. 
    
    Remember that this kind of situation will get worse until you cross the
    top. The boy will continue to stick to his actions thinking that *YOU*
    will give in. YOU CANNOT or the battle is lost, probably forever.
    
    This sounds as if it's been building for quite a while, and will
    probably take as long to get fixed. Be ready for a long and hard
    lesson.
    
    	A child who gets everything will value nothing.
    	
    	A person cannot tell another person how to raise their child. The
    parent has to *do it*.
    
    BLD

re: .5

See also note 184.

re: .16

I agree with most of the points.

But I disagree STRONGLY with the "what's good for the goose . . ." ploy.  IMO 
that would be counterproductive and reinforce the behavior.  "My mom lies, why 
shouldn't I?"  On the contrary, with a child like this, it's even MORE 
important for the parents to avoid even "white lies."

And not only do I think it would be counterproductive, I think it would be 
downright cruel.  To me, it's the emotional equivalent of beating the child.  
Just thinking about it makes me angry.

This is a child with problems.  Strong measures, including strong discipline 
may be necessary.  But this "strong measure" goes WAY beyond the line.

Clay  

    RE: -1
    
    Clay,
    
    	this boy needs to understand what he's doing. He obviously doesn't
    at this point. Nor have his parents been able to make it clear that it
    isn't an acceptable behavior.
    
    	This was just a suggestion. But some method needs to be employed to
    get the point across.
    
    -----
    
    	In my own case, I do *not* allow the following conversation in our
    house:
    
    	"Peter, what are you doing?"
    
    	"Nothing."
    
    Horsemanure! He's doing something. "Nothing" is not an acceptable
    answer. I have made sure that he understands this from an early age,
    and that even if he's doing something wrong, I won't get angry. I might
    not like it, and might have a chat w/him, but I won't get angry.
    
    IMO the answer "nothing" is a second cousin to lying, and lays an 
    early groundwork for it between parent and child. Think about it.

re: .18
    
>    	this boy needs to understand what he's doing. He obviously doesn't
>    at this point. Nor have his parents been able to make it clear that it
>    isn't an acceptable behavior.
>    
>    	. . . [S]ome method needs to be employed to get the point across.

I agree completely.  I just disagree strongly with that particular suggestion.

Clay

    Ok - another approach. 
    
    Give him a chance to show he's good. Plan to go to someplace he wants
    to go, or equivalent. Then when you catch him lying, and you'd better
    have him dead to rights, deny the activity.
    
    Note that this approach has potential for the child to act correctly and
    obtain his reward, or lose it. The choice is his.
    
    The above happened to someone I know. There was a plan to attend
    something, and the person was caught lying about being allowed to
    visit a friends, and the event was canceled. I've heard this story
    quite a few times, so I'm guessing that it made *quite* the impression.
    
    BLD

I harp back to the point I made before.  The biggest thing I do in handling
Mark's lying or stealing is nag...nag..nag until I am absolutely convinced
that he knows that he has done something wrong and admits it.  We go over
this again and again.  "What did you do...all of it...Was it wrong?...What is
it that you did that was wrong?...Are you sorry you did it?"  Through all of
this I assure him that I love him.

I also agree with Clay that using turnabout isn't a good idea.  However, there
are occasions where I have been unable to keep a promise and Mark will get
extremely angry.  I will apologize and say how sorry I am but then, the next
time I catch him in something, I usually use his previous anger at me as an
object lesson.  Note, I don't do it on purpose, but I use the opportunity to
my advantage :-)  I wouldn't "set him up" though.

I think it is really critical with kids like this who have a "weak" sense of
right and wrong to be terribly terribly consistant in how we deal with them
and the examples we set.  I try very hard to treat him fairly but especially
to set a behavior pattern I'd like him to have.  I apologize if I think I have
wronged him.  I did that just the other day.  A brand new jacket he had was
stolen (he left it behand in class and it was gone when he went back to get it). 
I was FURIOUS.  I yelled at him horribly.  What I didn't know is that he was
coming down ill and when he burst into tears and couldn't stop crying I 
realised I'd gone too far.  I apologized and he kept crying and saying it was 
alright and he knew I was sorry :-)  Sweet boy.

Someone else pointed out that you're in for a long haul.  I agree 100%  We 
still have occasional relapses, usually when I'm careless with my purse.  But
he's getting quicker on understanding, especially as the punishment gets worse
each time :-)

Cheryl

One problem that I see with your approach, Cheryl, of nagging, is that
child may tune out ... they will say what you want to hear and then
proceed in their own unsweet way.  This will tend to close any communication 
between you for the future.

You've really got to get inside and find out why the lies, and at the same
time make them feel comfortable in the family situation such that in the
event of later wrongdoing they will feel they can come to you and admit it
openly, without your having to drag it out.

That's why I really recommend "P.E.T." and "How to Listen ...".  You might
be surprised at how much easier it is for the truth to come out that way
than nagging it out of them.

Stuart

    I checked with the book I just put in note 17.25, and the suggestion
    for stealing/lying is to do approximately the following:
    
    Say to the child " You have *one* chance to answer. If you tell the
    truth, then (fill in the punishment). If you tell me you didn't do it,
    then ( 2x the above punishment). Now think carefully. Did you do it?"
    
    You then get your answer, and deal out the punishment. This keeps you
    from playing prosecuting attorney with a reluctant witness, and keeps
    this from escalating into a tense and angry confrontation.
    
    If you are not 100% convinced of the guilt, then Dr. Guarendi says
    that you have to do what all parents do, judge the matter youself.
    If the evidence points against the child, he's guilty. But let him
    know that the facts point to his guilt and that his "record" is
    against him. And let him know this. 
    
    Dr. G. says this works about half the time when first used, so don't
    be discouraged. But you must stick to the punishment so that he will
    realize there is a cause and effect relationship. The next time he
    gets caught, he'll remember.
    
    You may get some escalation of the problem. Do not think that *you* are
    doing something wrong because of this. In fact you are probably doing
    the right thing, and the child is just reacting to your imposing 
    discipline. He is testing your resolve. 
    
    BLD
    (if locals to ZK would like to view this book, I've got it at
    zk3-3/3x31)
    

Re. .-2  Stuart, what you said is what I mean by "nagging".  It is talking
to Mark util we are both sure of what he did.  I don't let it go on forever
but I think you have to keep harping back to the real issue, what he did was
wrong and he has to admit it to both himself and to me.  It is the getting
him to admit it to himself that is the hard part.

I have some problems with Dr. Guarendi's method described in .23  It is too 
easy for the child to take the punishment without any sense of feeling of 
wrong-doing. I could punish Markus for weeks on end and he wouldn't care.  I
think they must believe in their hearts that what they have done is wrong.
That, I feel, is what Stuart meant when he talks about "getting inside them".
Just punishing my son will not correct the problem.

ccb