Conference moira::parenting

re: .9,

As a toddler, my son ate anything that wasn't bolted down.
Some said he ate too much and would become fat.  I tended to believe that a
child that young cannot eat neurotically (sp?) like adults can, and I let
his appetite lead the way.

Now, at age 10, Sean is extremely picky - things he used to gobble down
with great delight are now "YUK - GROSS - I'm not eating THAT!".  Needless
to say he's far from fat.

My experience is that once kids hit school and come across other kids
who make faces at certain foods they start following suit.  No one wants to
eat something the rest of the class labels gross.

Young kids' tastes sometimes change just because.  I think that especially
with young kids (preschool), if we have healthy eating habits and provide a
variety of healthy foods for them to choose from, their appetites and
nutritional needs will lead the way.  Once they get older and
are influenced by peer pressure and advertising, well, it's a losing battle
unless you're up for a fight at the dinner table every night.

~Caryn

    My kids were not picky toddlers, but are very picky now.  Though my 7
    year old has never liked steak - that and canned spaghetti-types are
    about the only thing that has been consistent.
    
    They eat all veggies, meats, etc.  My 7 year old also does not like
    applesauce and I know he ate it as a baby.  My 5 year old still can't
    get enough of it.  I think sometimes they imitate a parents tastes,
    too.  I don't like clear-broth soups, so my kids won't eat them either.
    
    Oh well!
    
    -sandy
    

I don't force foods on them and they eat most anything.  They always have.  
However, their tastes have changed somewhat.  The older one will no longer
eat vegetables that he loved as a baby.  For the younger one, if I put ketchup
on the table, he'll eat it.  I expect them to try new foods but don't expect 
them to like them.  I never say "See! I knew you'd like it!!"  (I hated when
my mother did that to me :-)  It is nothing to me whether they like something 
or not but all they get is what I put on the table (and there is always 
_something_ I know they'll eat).  Dirk is more adventurous then Mark.

One thing I have found (that still eludes my husband) is that it is not _what_
you serve but _how_ you serve it.  I never put sauce on things without asking
them first.  I am careful when I put the food on their plates to not let one
part of the meal touch another part :-)  I ask them how much they want.  The
rule is: you took it, you eat it.  For the most part I cook simple with the
occasional fancy dinner that they grudgingly accept and sometimes surprise
themselves by liking.

Another trick I use when I want to serve something really unusual is to do it
on the weekends with candles and the best china, etc. for just the four of us.
We pretend this is a first class restaurant.  The kids like to be the waiters.
Then they'll even try the most unusual things (and clear the table afterwards
:-)

cheryl

    A one track diet with pills may be fine in some households but the
    problems I as a parent have are:
    
    	I don't remember to take pills myself so I don't want to have to
    depend on them for my child;
    
    	Food provides calories as well as vitamins;
    
    	Vitamins don't supply protein or fiber, both of which my child
    needs;
    
    	My "picky eater" may decide she doesn't want something but she is
    too young to communicate what she does want. Guessing games mean
    spending a lot of extra money on food which goes into the trash.
    
    I think it is natural to try to find a solution...

    I tend to agree with .4. Kids need calories, fiber, etc., which
    vitamins don't have.  I've been trying not to turn this into a
    federal case with James (and compared to some kids, he's not 
    that picky), but I guess I'm a control freak or a non-understanding
    kind of parent, because I honestly don't understand why he can't
    eat one green bean or one carrot slice or one piece or corn, etc.
    I don't expect him to like everything, but I do expect him to try
    everything, which he won't do.  
    
    Well, if this is the only problem I ever have with him, I'll be
    pretty darn lucky!!

    I agree with previous replies.  I don't believe vitamin pills
    can be food substitute.  In our household, we follow one simple
    rule, everyday one must have some veggies, some meat, some fruits
    and milk.  Sometimes, I am having problems getting my 4 yr old to
    eat veggies.  But most of the time, both kids keep a balanced diet.
    My brother has always been a picky eater.  He wouldn't eat veggies
    as a child and still doesn't now.  He turns 30 this year and is
    having health problem.  I think it is mainly due to his unbalanced
    eating habit.    Therefore, I think it is important to establish
    a healthy eating attitude while young.
    

re: .4, .5

     I didn't mean to foist a diet of candy bars and vitamin pills on
anyone's kids.  I'm all for getting enough calories (though I doubt this is
often a problem; in fact most American kids get too MANY calories for the
amount of other nutrients), fiber, and protein etc.  I only believe in
vitamin pills if the child's diet is deficient in some vitamin or mineral.
     My question was how important is "variety" per se?  Suppose the child
gets  plenty of calories, fiber, protein, vitamins, and minerals, but there
are only relatively few things that s/he will eat.  Is a parent doing the
child a disservice if the parent "gives in" to the child?  Does this have
any long term bad effects on the kid?  Does it mean that s/he will have a
one track diet the rest of her/his life?  
     Or are most picky eaters like .6's brother, and refuse to eat entire
classes (usually vegetables) of food, and therefore probably have a deficient
diet?
     Our "rule" is somewhat like .6's, except that we don't insist on eating
any meat.  That really only affects our daughter, who is somewhat of a
vegetarian.  Our son, and to a lesser extent our daughter, refuses to eat
certain vegetables.  This means that at some meals we have more than one
different vegetable.  This isn't as big a pain as it seems, since the
"alternate" vegetable is a leftover from the night before.
     I personally am close to the antithesis of a picky eater.  But then I
don't EVER remember being picky, except for being quite limited as a
youngster due to allergies.  My mother claims it was not difficult to get me
to eat new and different things.

Clay

    When I was a child, my parents made us eat everything on our plate
    whether we liked it or not.  I do not do this to my children.  They eat
    everthing and hardly ever have any dislikes.
    
    regards,
    
    lynne c.
    

    My sister's husband used to be fed scrambled eggs for breakfast
    when he was young.  One morning he told his mother that if he had
    to eat his eggs, he'd throw up.   She made him eat 'em.  He threw
    up.  To this day, he will not eat anything "mushy". 
    
    He eats everything *else*, but nothing "mushy".  :-)

    re: .9
    
    I did that too, only it was cabbage.  I still can't stand the
    smell of cooking cabbage.
    
    We've only got a few rules. 
    
    * If you don't eat the good food, you don't get dessert or other
      extras
    
    * You don't have to eat what the cook fixed, but the cook isn't
      going to fix anything else for you.  You have to fix your own
      meal, and it has to be nutritious.  
    
    I used to have a lot of trouble with the second one, because I
    felt like after Neil or I had gone to all the work to cook a
    balanced, interesting meal, the least they could do is eat it. 
    Which was silly -- it's only food, and in general they didn't ask
    me to go to that much work for them.  Hence the rule about making
    your own substitute meal; it's not fair to refuse to eat and then
    make somebody else go to the extra work of making you something.  
    
    I also used to be picky about "eat at meals, don't fill up on
    snacks," until last time I was pregnant and trying to avoid
    developing gestational diabetes and the doctors put me on a
    schedule of meals and snacks because it's healthier.  The typical
    U.S. diet of three (often only two) meals a day with one of them
    much larger than the others is not very easy on the metabolism --
    it dumps everything into your system at once.  So now I let the
    kids eat when they want, as long as it's healthy food.  
    
    We don't require meat -- David just plain doesn't like it, and he
    gets plenty of protein from cottage cheese and peanut butter and
    so on.  
    
    I figure there are two points to the process:  The immediate goal
    is to make sure they take in enough good stuff to be strong and
    healthy, and the long range goal is for them to take over
    responsibility for their own diets and know how to feed themselves
    when they leave home.  This includes not just what they eat now
    but knowing how to prepare foods in healthy and interesting ways,
    how to choose a menu, how to shop, and all the rest of the
    background work that goes into making a dinner.  And this goes for
    the boys as well as for Kat.  
    
    --bonnie

    I took my 9 year old for her physical yesterday and she weighed in at
    59 pounds. Although that is a bit on the the thin side, the doctor said 
    not to worry about it.. she's perfectly healthy and growing..etc..
    as long as there is not a sudden drop in wieght, I shouldn't worry 
    about her "thinness". 
    
    When she was younger...3, 4, 5...she ate more and she was chubbier but 
    I guess as they grow and are very active..(running around on a
    playground burns up a lot of calories!) they just thin out. As long 
    as they eat healthy foods (fruits, veggies) there's no problem. There 
    would be a problem if the child absolutely refuses to eat.  When my 
    daughter was about 7, I took her to several different doctors because 
    I didn't believe it when the first dr. said her weight was normal. 
    Ithought she was too thin! When she took a bath you could practically 
    see her ribs!!   The doctor(s) assured me nothing was wrong.. even 
    if all she had for lunch was 2 bites of a hamburger and juice..that 
    was enough of her. All kids are different.  Before you know
    it..there"ll come a time when you can't keep them out of the fridge!
    

re: .10

>the long range goal is for them to take over responsibility for their own
>diets and know how to feed themselves when they leave home.  This includes
>not just what they eat now but knowing how to prepare foods in healthy and
>interesting ways

Bonnie,

     Thanks for stating more clearly what I was aiming at, and expanding it.
Not only is eating a variety of foods probably more healthy, but also eating
should be a pleasurable experience, not just a means of getting nourishment
into your body.  One of the things I think make it pleasurable is to eat a
variety of foods.  One of the distinctive feature of most cultures is their
cuisine, so eating can even be a anthropological expreience.
     So if I think it would be nice if my kids, as adults have a varied, and
therefore (probably) more healthy diet, and  appreciated a wide variety of
foods when they become adults, how should I approach the finickiness now?  

Clay

    re: .12
    
    Clay,
    
    It hasn't been my experience that kids are experimental eaters. 
    Some of them are, some of the time, but a lot of times they seem
    to need the security of only a few comfortable safe foods, or
    something.  Variety isn't the only source of pleasure -- some
    people prefer the pleasure of the familiar.  
    
    I think all you can do is eat and prepare a wide variety of foods
    yourself, and give them the opportunity to try new things.  Then
    when they're older, they won't be as stunned by the variety of
    foods in the world as I was when I left home.  
    
    With Kat, we used to have a rule that she had to try at least a
    bite of a new thing, and she'd go along with that and sometimes
    even like it.  Steven's more stubborn and is willing to go to bed
    hungry rather than eat something he can't stand the smell of or
    doesn't like the looks of.  But if I keep serving it, he'll
    eventually resign himself to trying it and often likes what he
    finds.  David it's a little young to tell, except that he really
    likes  pizza and macaroni and cheese and really doesn't like meat. 
    He tries it because he sees us eating it, but he really doesn't
    like it.  
    
    One thing that a friend of mine does, and I'd like to try, is have
    "international nights" a couple of times a month.  She started it
    more to teach the kids to cook than to improve their eating
    habits, but it would probably work both ways.  They decide on the
    country they'd like to explore, and then one person researches how
    meals are served while the other three pick out the recipes and
    learn how to prepare the foods and stuff.  (They trade who does
    what.) And their grandmother usually comes over, bringing
    something representative of the country of the night.  (The whole
    tradition started after the grandparents came back from a Greek
    vacation a couple of years ago.)  
    
    So, does any of that help?  It's not an easy issue.  Food is such
    an important issue for me and I have so many emotional connections
    to it that I've tried to make it as much of a non-issue as
    possible for my kids, so they don't fall into garbage like the
    eat-when-you-feel-unloved trap, but maybe I take it too far to the
    other extreme.  As you say, good food is certainly one of the
    pleasures of life. 
    
    --bonnie

I grew up in a family where fruits & veggies were big parts of the
diet, and I love them.  We also tended to have quite a bit of 
variety.  My memories do include some food dislikes of my sisters
& I when we were small, but nothing like my step-son and husband.
My husband will be a little more daring, but is not big on fruits
or veggies.  My step-son just won't eat them.  He eats meat and cheese,
and that's about it.  Potato chips and caramel Twix he'll also eat.
But no veggies and no fruits.  He doesn't really even care for grains
that much - won't eat a sandwich with bread, just meat and cheese rolled
up into little tubes.  He will eat an occasional orange, and sometimes
will drink orange juice or milk.  My step-daughter is much better.  She'll 
eat lettuce with salad dressing on it, loves raw carrots but must dip them
in Ranch dressing, likes grapes, strawberries, pineapple, and peaches.  

But I'm the only person who likes tomatoes, asparagus, green beans, brocolli, 
bananas, blue berries, zuchinni (sp?), summer squash, cauliflower, beets, 
brussel sprouts, plums, kiwi fruit, cherries, cucumbers, and other things 
like that.  

It makes it real tough to do nutritional meals while the children are with us,
and even when they are not.  My husband, like the children will have a little 
pile of things picked out of casseroles or salads that he doesn't eat.  I 
worry about them all.  They get plenty of calories, but I hate to think what 
their arteries will be like in a few years.

They all love bacon, butter, ice cream.  They all prefer most food to be hot.
Tuna fish sandwiches must be grilled with cheese.  Never just plain with 
lettuce and tomato.  And they all need sauces on everything.  No plain grilled
chicken, or whatever.  It all needs some type of sauce, gravy, or ketchup.
Fish with just a little lemon squeezed on it - no way !  Tarter sauce is 
a must have.   I tried really hard the first year or two, now I've given up.  
Meal times became dreaded times, full of tears and squabbles, temper tantrums,
and glum looks until I gave up trying to include veggetables at a meal or 
fruit for dessert.  I make those things for myself.  Try to buy the fruits &
veggies in real small quantities, but still end up wasting more than I care
to think about.  I will, when I have the energy stay up late at night after
everyone else is gone to bed to make spagetti sauce with veggies like zuchinni,
brocoli, green peppers, and onions sneaked into it.  If they don't see it,
they'll eat it, but if they know its in there, they won't even if they can't
distinguish the unliked items from anything else in the mixture.  I think its
all visual & mental rather than taste because I've snuck lots of unliked items
in hamburger, meatloaf, spagetti sauce, and other sauces & they've raved over
them, but if they see me making it, no way will they even try it.  Its very
frustrating, and I'm trying real hard now to drop some of the bad eating habits
I've picked up in the last three years, along with the thirty pounds that 
I've gained too.

Leslie

My brother hates (to this day!) carrots.  I mean with a PASSION.  Right after
he got out of the navy, my mother decided to trick him and, for his birthday
made a carrot cake.  It was, of course delicious and every one was happily
eating away on it including my brother until...

Mom told him it was made with carrots.  He pushed it away and wouldn't take
another bite.

:-)

I _NEVER_ tell when I sneak those good things in.  It stays a secret forever.

:-)

My grandmother wouldn't eat any kind of shellfish at all.  One time at a Chinese
place, my Mom & I had ordered several dishes for the three of us, and the one
my grandmother liked the most was the one with shrimp in it.  We never told
her either.  

But the children & my husband will eat zucchini bread even though they know 
what's in it.  Always got have an exception I guess.

Leslie

Sneaking doesn't always work.  When I was a kid, my parents would occasionally
serve non-grocery store meats (like venison, or bear once).

They never told us, but none of us were big meat eaters and the strong flavors
were too much.

One time they served venison, but told us about it.  None of us liked it, but
they claimed we couldn't tell.  A few weeks later, they served it again, but
didn't tell us.  We all dug in like usual, but none of us like the
flavor and asked what it was.  They lied and said it was cow, which tipped us 
off (after all, if it was just the usual cow, they wouldn't have known what 
we were talking about).  We could definitely tell.

And none of us were picky, we'd try anything, from day one.  So, I personally
would not say anything at first, but would tell them after they've eaten 
enough to decide if they like it.

Pat

    I was an extremely picky eater as a kid, but now I'll eat almost
    anything.  My mom tells me that my older brother went for a year
    as a toddler eating nothing but cut up hotdogs, cheese, Cheerios,
    and carrots.  The pediatrician said it was balanced enough not to
    worry about it.  NOW my brother is something of a gourmet, he'll
    try anything, he loves to cook, and visits me here in LA primarily
    because we have great sushi.
    
    So, toddler pickiness is not indicative of adult anything.  Don't
    sweat it.

    Leslie,
    I am married to a man that will not eat hardly any vegetables. Like
    you I am the only one that will eat most wonderful veggies. Alan would
    much rather have a 1/2 pound of beef than anything vegetarian. He
    does eat corn, carrots and beans, but little else. Doesn't like
    anything in a salad (even carrot salad) with mayo/dressing.
    Unfortunately he's the lean one in the family and I am the one with 
    high cholesterol and a weight problem (go figure!).
    
    He does say though, that he has 2 years to train himself into eating
    all the veggies before our daughter uses him as an excuse not to 
    eat her veggies!
    
    Monica

My husband also grew up eating meat and potatoes and salad.  No pasta, no
casseroles, no Italian food, no chinese.  He remembers having veal chops for
breakfast!  So, in his opinion, casseroles are "mush", meatloaf is "mush", and
broccoli, cauliflower, squash, brussel sprouts, anything that isn't found in a
salad is suspect and to be avoided.  

My two daughters are finicky but love anything Italian (husband hates tomato 
sauce!) or pasta with cheese sauce, also hot dogs, tacos, fajitas, ham, corned
beef.  They hate steak (too hard to chew?), fish (but love fried seafood), and
will eat chicken if ketchup is provided (or if it's on a sandwich). 
Consequently, we eat a lot of chicken 8^).  My approach is to serve dinner with
something everyone will eat. Sometimes that means that the kids will eat just
plain pasta (or potatoes) and some veggies and skip the meat/fish.  If we're
having steak, I may throw a hot dog on the grill for them.  I try not to make a
big deal of it, but I also avoid making two separate meals. 

I've found that hiding veggies in food works sometimes too.  I've put carrots, 
peppers and onions into tomato sauce and potato pancakes.  But sometimes it
backfires.  My daughter used to love meatloaf, until I made it one day with
ground turkey.  Now she won't touch it!

I've also tried to "bridge" from a well-liked food to a new one; i.e., start
with plain chicken, progress to barbecued chicken to chicken parmigian to
chicken with a mild mustard sauce.  But again, this only works sometimes.  

I hated most vegetables until I went to college, where I was exposed to 
veggies other than canned carrots, peas and corn.  Now I'll eat anything (except
okra!!).  Sometimes I think kids' taste buds just don't work the same way 
as ours.  

BC

    
    I'm having a problem with my son Nicholas who will be 3, the end
    of February.  
    
    He only likes a couple of things to eat and that's it.
    Basically, the only things he'll eat for a meal is:
    Grilled cheese sandwich, Macaroni and Cheese, Cereal,
    and french fries.
    
    He won't even touch Spaghettio's anymore, or soup, etc.
    Forget about any kind of meat or vegetable.  He won't
    even try a bite.  He just looks at it and pushes it away.
    
    I talked to his pediatrician and he basically told me
    that he's a typical toddler and he will eventually eat.
    I don't see this happening in the distant future.
    I have been giving him vitamins with iron every day.
    (the dtr o.k.'d this)
    
    I can't believe he won't touch spaghetti or even pizza!
    My husban, myself and my 17 month old eat just about 
    everything.  I swear, I don't know where he comes from ;-)
    
    Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.
    Ugh!
    
    
    Thanks,
    Chris
    

    
    re .21
    
    Just ride it. 
    
    Just make sure he gets all the nutrients through fruit juices 
    and may be vitamins. He'll grow out of it. 
    
    It is easy for me to say now, but I was going through it 5 - 6 
    years ago, I was pulling hair. ;-)
    
    
    
    
    Eva

    I have a 7 yr old who will not touch pizza, pasta, veggies [unless
    hidden in carrot cake or zucchini bread], even bagels.  I keep on telling 
    her i'm not going to carry PB&J with me anymore, that if she won't at 
    least try something new she's just going to be hungry. of course, she
    knows moms not going to let her starve, so far that ploy hasn't worked
    too well!  My 11-yr old has never liked meat, now won't eat chicken,
    altho he promised me that maybe he'd try next week.  He'll at least eat
    pasta, pizza, salad (not tomato or cucs yet tho).  Neither kid is
    starving, they average 3-5 pounds/yr weight gain.  It's just so
    frustrating cause we can't go out easily as a family.  Unless, of
    course, i don't give in but just say "tough".
    
    people keep on telling me: wait, it'll change when they're teens.  I
    sure hope so!
    
    sandy

    
    re .23
    
    I did "force" my kid to eat a few veggies at age 6-7 or so.
    I just got so mad one day that I stopped being "nice".
    The few veggies are raw red peppers, stir-fried brocolli,
    raw carrots and corn. It was an uncomfortable situation 
    for a week or so, but that paid off since I never had a
    problem since. My daughter figured out that it took too
    much effort to fight with us. She is 9 now, will eat just
    about any veggie except mushrooms. She is pretty good
    with eating out now, the only place that she can't find
    anything to eat is at Japanese restaurants. Thai, Indian,
    Chinese, Mexican, Italian, seafood, no problem.
    
    I would put up with 2 weeks worth of guilt than years of
    headache. Abd no, my daughter does not hate me for that;
    she actually thanked me a while ago for making her eat
    different things, since she is not a pain for her friends' 
    mom or relatives who have to carry for her occasionally.
    
    
    Eva                                                     

    I would not eat most vegetables until the age of 19.
    (then I became a vegetarian at the age of 20, really!)
    I think that my parents tried everything to get me to eat
    vegetables, but I was really stubborn. I was also healthy,
    I had perfect attendance at school for 5 years. 
    Now I am having the same problem with my daughter, and I 
    really would like for her to eat vegetables, I guess it's
    pay back time!

My daughter is willing to  try things, fortunately.  My husband has an
engaging way of saying, "but if you try it, you might like it!" and she is
willing to try.  The way it is said seems to make a difference.

We don't enforce anything like "if it is on your plate, you have to finish",
though.

Beryl

	My daughter went through a phase at around 26 months where
	she hardly ate any dinner, even her old favorites.  She was
	having Cheerio's immediately upon arriving home from daycare,
	and that may have been filling her up, but even when she'd gone
	a while between meals, she just picked at her dinners.  She
	was eating great at daycare.

	At the time, I would offer her one or two things that she 
	"used to" like, and if she didn't eat, I didn't push it.
	If she asked for something later, I'd give her fruit or
	a bagel.

	I can't exactly remember when she got back on track, but
	now, at 30 months, she's eating everything she used to and
	a few new foods.  Last night, my husband was complaining that
	there wasn't enough spaghetti, and I told him, "That's because
	Emily had 3 helpings!"  Yipes!

	Karen

    I'll warn you - it doesn't end! My 6 yr. old is still a picky eater. He
    won't eat macaroni and cheese anymore since he basically subsisted on
    it for ages 3-4!
    
    My family practitioner is of the mindset that eating sufficient
    varieties of fruit makes up for veggies.
    
    Different books might help. For instance, at age 4 1/2, my son got the
    Berenstein Bear book "No More Junkfood" from the library one week. In
    the book they eat lots of carrot sticks. That became his snack food for
    weeks (with salad dressing dip) and he still enjoys it!
    
    There are also books that describe making food appealing to kids which
    I am sure you can find in the library/bookstore. For example, ants on a
    log is celery with peanut butter and raisins.
    
    Lastly, involving your child in food prep might encourage him/her to
    try various foods.
    

    I have a story about picky eating I would love to share.
    
    I took mom with Carrie and Atlehi shopping for xmas gifts.  After a
    hard and heavy morning, we were hungry, and mom suggested a Thai
    resturant that she loves.  Well Carrie made depreciating sounds about
    the idea, but there is a mac D's next door.  We picked her up a
    cheeseburger brat pack, and knowing the resturant owner, brought it in
    with us.  She proceded to chow down happily on the happy meal, and
    after demolishing it, started looking at food that she had basically
    classified  as "eeewww" and asked to try some.  Guess who now thinks
    the unspice  Thai dishes are something which should be eaten.  (I
    carefully didn't give her the highly spiced beef and basil dish I had
    ordered.)  I think not insisting that she try any of the food, and
    letting her have her food when she was startivg, smoothed the way.  
    
    meg

	I wonder what the parenting community thinks about putting cheese
        sauce or just melting a slice of cheese over veggies and about salad
        dressing on vegtables to make them more appealing.

        Kristen is 20 months old and loves salad (lettuce, tomatoe, cucumber,
        green pepper and I'm thinking of adding other things)  But she will
        only eat it with dressing.  (So far I've only tried Ranch dressing
        that I make myself with skim milk and low fat/low cholesterol
        mayonaise. This is for Daddy's benefit, I know that fat wouldn't be
        too bad for her since she drinks whole milk anyway)  I thought
        I'd try other dressings - can anyone recommend some good ones?
        I don't eat salad myself, but Daddy and Kristen love it!

        Now she's a great salad eater, but doesn't touch other vegtables
        (carrots, potatoes, broccolli, string beans, etc...) She just pushes
        these aside.  She loves pasta, bread, cheese, and fruit.  To get her to
        eat the vegtables I was thinking of melting a piece of cheese over
        them.  I think this would work and cheese isn't bad for a toddler.
        But then I don't want to set up a habit that she never outgrows.
        Do you think if I do the cheese trick now she'll never want to eat
        vegtables plain?

        I can see the salad dressing, no one eats salad without it, so I
        guess I'm just wondering about the cheese?

        Thanks,
        Karen T.

    
    re .30
    
    How about veggies stir-fry style - with seasoning?
    
    I don't know others, but I personally don't think we should
    get into a mentality that we need to make veggies more appealing.
    Stir-fried veggies are great with just salt and pepper cooked
    in, not added at the end. 
    
    I am starting to feel odd ;-) - I don't use dressings on salads
    because they cover the taste of the veggies. But again, I didn't
    grow up in this country. My daughter has a choice and she doesn't
    like dressings either - she eats salads plain.
     
     
    Eva

    karen,
    
    Being a person who pours vinegar over her veggies, and used to call
    Margarine "magic flavoring agent" for one kid, I don't see a problem. 
    Kids do outgrow this.  the kid I had to margarinize and otherwise do
    stuff to veggies to get her to eat, now complains if there isn't
    something "green" with dinner.  She actually eats a very broad range of
    foods, including stuff I have cultural biases against.  (It took me
    awhile to get brave enough to try babaganouj, although I like eggplant
    parmesan and ratatoulle)
    
    ranch sald dressing also makes a good "brightener" for cooked veggies.
    
    meg

    Along the lines of stir-fry, something my kids like is to stir-fry the
    veggies [I usually do whatever's in season like zuchini, summer squash,
    carrots, peppers and a red onion] and add a splash of sherry at the end
    for flavor.  With a little red onion, the veggies come out nice and
    sweet. I never have any leftovers.
    
    But if your daughter likes a cheese sauce or dressing, I don't see
    where there's a problem in serving the food the way she likes it.  My
    kids love sauce on things, and they define sauce as everything from
    ketchup to bearnaise, so I make a lot of things with sauce.  

    I'm another that doesn't use salad dressing (I just don't like it) but
    I do use lemon.  So now my 31 mos old will eat salad plain, with
    dressing (when she's eating with daddy) or with lemon (when she's
    eating with mom).  Sometimes, she'll even just eat the lemon (just like
    mom 8^) )
    
    Susan

	Emily loves Shepherd's pie, which in my house is made with
	
	1 lb. browned ground turkey spread in a 9x13 pan, topped with
	1 can of Campbell's vegetable soup (no water added), topped
	with 1 can mixed vegetables and 1 can corn or peas, then
	mashed potatoes.

	The soup adds moistness, and when I serve it, we usually end
	up mixing it all together.  If your kid loves mashed potatoes,
	they'll usually eat all the veggies with it.

	Karen

    
    I went through (going through!) the same kind of stuff ....
    
    after about 2 yrs old, my boys who would eat EVERYTHING suddenly
    started developing taste buds, and quite suddenly didn't like ANYTHING! 
    For Chris, this lasted ~4 years.  For Jason, we're going onto 5 yrs,
    and are just starting to see some improvements.
    
    They lived on;
    mac & cheese
    chicken nuggets
    P.B. & J.
    Fish sticks
    cereal
    hot dogs/hamburgs
    
    and I think that's about it.  Here and there we could get away w/
    noodles with butter, or something else once in a while, but it was
    pretty much chicken nuggets for months and months.  The biggest problem
    I had was with ME thinking "This is disgusting!".  They grew fine, and
    had plenty of energy, so really, I was the problem.  If we were going
    someplace, I'd just bring something I knew they liked (a box of
    mac/chz, or pack a sandwich), and tell them they can either have what I
    packed, or what everyone else was eating, and those are the only
    choices.  That was reasonably successful.  
    
    Now Chris will eat a LOT of different things, and will TRY almost
    anything.  I only 'make' him try a small bite.  Sometimes he likes it,
    sometimes he hates it, and still, sometimes he's in a bad mood and will
    SAY he hates it when he likes it (he's 9).
    
    Jason, we're just starting to break through.  He'll eat chick nugg, hot
    dogs, mac & chz, pepperoni, baked ham (but NOT lunch meat!), bologna,
    and pasta w/ meat.  He thinks he HATES hamburger.  Only recently, when
    giving him some spaghetti w/ meat sauce, and he said "That was Great! 
    The meat's the BEST part!" - you should have seen the look on his face
    when I told him the meat was hamburg.  He LOVES chicken soup, but
    thinks he HATES turkey.  Till I gave him some turkey soup, told him it
    was chicken, and when he was all done, told him it was turkey.  He's at
    the age, where he's almost RELIEVED to find out he does like something
    else.  And more than once he's thanked me or praised himself for trying
    something new because it's SO good!  I still have to MAKE him try
    something new, and even that is with varying degrees of success.  BUT,
    it's a lot better than it was last year, and every year does get
    easier. (I think they just get hungrier! (-;)
    
    It's funny because my sister used to be mortified what I'd go through
    to get food into them, and always said that if I just MADE them eat
    whatever everyone else was having, they WOULD, and that'd be that. 
    Till she had kids of her own, and now w/ a 2 yr old who will only drink
    chocolate milk, and will only eat spicey chicken, (and who weighs less
    than my 1 yr old!) she's figured it out.
    
    Cut back on sweets (because they WILL eat 'bad' food to the exclusion
    of 'good' food), and let him call the rest of the shots .... he'll grow
    out of it.  After all, who wants to EAT, when you can PLAY!?!?
    
    

    
    re: salad dressings for kids
    
    I know that I've seen something in the salad dressing aisle called
    "Kids Salad Dressing" or some such name that implies that kids like it.
    They had pizza flavor, taco flavor, and probably a couple of others.
    I tried taco flavored dressing once and it was good!  I'm almost
    tempted to buy this stuff but it isn't low calorie!\\
    
    re: don't give them a choice... make them eat it!
    
    That works with cats but I'm finding out it doesn't work with my
    daughter.
    
    Karen

    My children have some standard food taboos (onions, red peppers), but
    they also have some (what I think are) unusual tastes.  My 7 year old
    daughter loves blue cheese dressing, chunks and all, on her honeymoon
    salad; and my son likes spicey chicken wings.
    
    My rule has always been take at least one bite.  If you like it you can
    have more, if you don't you'll get lots of credit for trying.  

    Well, my daughter is really different.  Some of the foods that I see as
    being popular with other children, she won't touch.  For example:
    Macaroni & Cheese (I've tried homeade, kraft, velveeta and shells,  and
    even those that come with the different pasta shapes) she absolutely
    refuses to touch it.   She sees it on the table and the first words out
    of her mouth is "oh no, I'm not eating macaroni & cheese".   She hates
    and will not even look at a grilled cheese sandwich.  She will not eat
    rice.  So we were thinking that she just had aversion to cheese. But,
    she absolutely loves spaghetti (which she sprinkles cheese on),
    beefaroni (also has cheese sprinkled on).Surprisingly she likes
    Meatloaf  (which I put melted cheddar on) and she is always asking me
    to make it.  And she also likes Shepards Pie (which also has melted
    cheddar on top). She loves Feta cheese and cold slices of American
    cheese and most any other type of cheese.   So why she hates Mac & 
    Cheese and grilled cheese sandwiches so much is beyond me, unless of
    course she gets it from me and its hereditary.   I also have an extreme
    aversion to both Mac & Cheese and Grilled Cheese sandwich.  I will not
    touch them, but I have never told my daughter not to eat these things
    because I hate them.
    
    So, we also have the rule that she tries at least one bite, and except
    for the things that we absolutely know that she doesn't like, she will
    at least try a little bit of it.   We don't even expect her to try
    Macaroni & Cheese everytime we have it, but any other new dish that we
    try, she has to at least try one bite.   This is really hard for me to
    enforce, because I will fix things for dinner that I don't particularly
    care for myself but that my husband will enjoy.   Its hard to make her
    try something that I wouldn't eat myself.    
    
    

    This question is really rhetorical, but

    How come my kids will put ketcup on anything.  Will eat pizza with
    gusto.  But don't want sauce on their spaghetti, bland, spicy or
    in between.  And act like they're being poisoned if there are chunks of
    cooked tomatoes in anything, or find a raw tomato in their salad?

    :-)

    Actually my kids are very good eaters, and eat a variety of food.  That
    may even be why is can be such a puzzle when they react with such
    randomness.

    Ha!  Sounds like you're describing my eating!!!  I can't explain
    myself either.  :-)
    
    					cj *->

    
    re .40
    
    My daughter is like. She says that tomato is too spicy
    and spaghetti sauce is too sour. Ketchup is kind of
    sweet.
    
    
    Eva

    Kids probably like ketchup because Reagan pronounced it a vegetable.:-)
    

    
    I love pizza and I like the sauce.  But I can't stand sauce on my
    pasta.  I can taste the pasta when it's plain, if I put sauce on it all
    I taste is the sauce - if I want sauce I'll order a pizza.  I'm the
    same way with my salad.  I would never put any type of dressing on my
    salad - I want to taste the veggies not the dressing.  If I want to
    taste the dressing, I'd use it as a dip for my veggie platter.
    
    Lou

    My little guy (6 years) is the same way - and it was a bit of a
    turnaround for him, as he used to LOVE spaghetti with the sauce. 
    However, Joe is a "limited" eater in general.  As a infant and toddler, 
    he ate a great variety of foods.  Never had to sugar or mix fruit with
    his baby-food meats, etc.  As a toddler his diet shrank to include only
    things like hot dogs, peanut butter, and cheeseburgers.  Major junk
    food freak, he was.  We've been working hard for nearly two years to
    stretch his food choices, and now he's down to *not* eating only
    tomato sauces, pork chops, pot roast, and anything that vaguely
    resembles a vegetable.  
    
    The tomato/tomato sauce thing is one of his few vagaries I will put 
    up with, however, because it doesn't create a major fuss for me.  
    I just take his share of pasta, slap a dab of margarine on it, sprinkle 
    some parmesan cheese on, and nuke it for about 45 seconds, stir, and 
    voila!  A dish the child with no taste in food will eat.  On the
    opposite side of the coin, Joe *loves* alfredo sauce and three-cheese
    sauces, which you would think would be a little "rich" for my
    junk-food-junkie!
    
    Go figure!
    
    M.

    I would like to get wean my kids away from prepackaged cooking (ex:
    mac&cheese, frozen fried chicken), and strictly meat-starch-vegetable
    meals (ex: broiled meat, pasta, carrots).  Most of the recipes I've
    considered include onions and/or peppers.  Onions I think I can chop
    fine enough to hide, plus they seem less intent lately on avoiding
    onions.  (Ever since they discovered they like onion rings.)  But I
    they still strongly reject peppers of any color. Any ideas for
    something that would substitute texture and color wise in such recipes? 
    Or maybe I should just cut them very large and let the kids push them
    aside.

>>    Any ideas for
>>    something that would substitute texture and color wise in such recipes? 

Peas?  Celery?  Green beans cut half the normal length?  Zucchini?  Um, what
else is green...?  For mixed-in vegetables, my kids generally prefer peas,
corn, carrots, and sometimes brocolli and cauliflour.  Oh, and spinach is
generally ok with them, too.  From this list, I guess the closest substitute
for green peppers is probably the green beans.  I don't think about
substitutes much because the only thing I really use recipes for is baking...

						ch

    
    I'd either leave them out or cut them big.  Personally, when I think
    of American Chop Suey with green beans instead of green peppers, it
    doesn't appeal.
    
    Karen
    

    Would they accept Red bell peppers?  They're more expensive, but they
    have a sweeter taste than the green ones and 1/4 cup is loaded with
    vitamin C (if I remember correctly).  In the summer you can grow them
    in a largish container and freeze the extra for adding to recipes. 
    Maybe if you didn't tell the kids they were eating red peppers until
    after they tried it...
    
    
    (My husbands mother used to call beef liver "steak" and they couldn't
    figure out why everyone else like steak so much!)
    
    sandy

        I'd thought of green beans, I may try that.  I do agree thought that
    there are recipes where it just wouldn't work (like spaghetti sauce or
    chili).

    Actually they spot the red peppers first and then it's a battle to even
    make the try the other parts of the dish.  I am generally too lazy for
    fresh vegetables and I dislike most canned vegetables, so I use mostly
    frozen.  Many of the combinations contain red peppers.

    The liver story made me think of when we were little.  My grandmother
    would call pot roast "buffalo meat, just like Howdy Doody (sp?) and 
    Buffalo Bob (sp?) eat."

    Oh dear, I'm dating myself, aren't I?  :-)

    When my step children absolutely refused all veggies and any milk,
    and I was concerned about their health I would sometimes puree 
    vegetables like brocoli, carrots, etcetra, and blend it into sauces
    such as spaghetti sauce, or mince some veggies particulary finely &
    hide them in hamburger patties & meatloaf.  I would include a couple
    tablespoons of powdered milk in things like muffins to get a little 
    more calcium in their diets.  I did sometimes have to use food coloring 
    to color-correct a few things.  Spagetti sauce with pureed brocoli is 
    not the nice red of spagetti sauce w/o pureed brocoli :-).

    Now that they're older they eat a few more things though they prefer
    fastfood over anything else.  Every summer I find myself getting
    hungry for a little more variety than they are willing to try. I've
    sadly, pretty much given up on doing anything that will get them to 
    eat a more balanced, healthier diet. We just don't have them with us
    long enough to make it worth the difficulty and trouble of trying to 
    overcome their resistence to eating very many vegetables and fruit 
    in addition to the meat, cheese, and sweets they are willing to eat. 
    (Can you tell I'm still a bit frustrated about it? :-} )

    Leslie

    My 10 year old will eat VERY few foods...mostly 'white' foods.
    Cereal with milk, grilled cheese, VERY plain chicken with no
    sauce or flavoring, spagetti with only butter and Parm Cheese
    no tomato sauce, plain pizza (no meat or veggies of any kind), etc.

    So now he's suddenly in love with Slim Jims.....

    I'm not sure whether to retch or be thankful that he's
    expanding his tastes.  Tastes?  oh well....something different
    every day.
    bob

>    So now he's suddenly in love with Slim Jims.....

 Our next "food" after slim jims, was Tacos and/or those Andy Cap's Hot Fries.

Maybe you'll have similar luck ??  (-:

    Well, I've got one who'll eat pizza, pasta, pancakes, salad [only
    lettuce and carrots tho], grilled cheese -- no meat or chicken,
    sometimes tuna
    
    and another who won't eat pizza or pasta or ANY vegetable [unless
    hidden in carrot cake or zucchini bread] but will eat mcd's chicnken
    nuggets
    
    both foruntately will eat peanut butter and jelly, altho the older one
    suddenly won't eat it on a sandwich....
    
    then they wonder why we don't take them out to dinner more often!  my
    problem is jsut convincing them to take a taste of something --
    theymight be surprised.  doesn't work -- they're too old [12.5 and 8.5]
    
    sigh..........

Well, I may actually be on to something here .....

Last night picked up the boys, and the very fussy one hadn't eaten any lunch 
because what they had at the Boys' Club was "Totally disgusting!", and what 
his dad had packed "Was the same thing he always packs, and he's tired of it".

Soooooooooooooo .... rather than have the battle, I took a different strategy.
Okay, Jason, here's some paper, here are the days that you are with me.  Each 
day was broken into breakfast lunch and supper.  His "chore" was to plan out a 
menu for each meal.  He was allowed to always have cereal for b.fast, but 
everything else had to have variety, and he couldn't have the same thing twice 
within 2 days (except the cereal for b.fast only).  AND if he picked something 
that someone else disliked, he had to also pick something that that person 
would eat, that didn't require a lot of extra cooking.

Interestingly enough, he's now suddenly decided that hamburgers are fine, 
beans are acceptable as a veggie, and he'll go back to eating carrots (which 
he used to LOVE!).  PB&jelly is *great* for lunch, and a few other 
modifications to his diet.  Next week his brother gets to do it.  And it works 
out great because I know JUST what to buy.  

Maybe this is worth a try for others??

-Patty