Conference moira::parenting

    With Kat I found that a "sticks and stones may break my bones but
    words won't hurt me" approach worked well.  I'd tell her she was
    entitled to her opinion and I didn't care what she *said* as long
    as she *did* what she was supposed to do.  
    
    Since her two main goals were to assert her own autonomy as a
    developing person and to make me mad, she gave up pretty quickly
    when she realized she wasn't going to do either.  
    
    I haven't been able to handle Steven the same way, though.  I
    expect he'd respond the same way, but his smarting off makes me so
    much madder than hers did.  I don't know if I'm older, or what...
    
    --bonnie

    Thanx for saying that, Bonnie, about "smarting off" making you
    so #@!$% mad.  I feel that way more than sometimes!
    
    Maybe we'll try that "sticks and stones" approach...

    
    I think Spencer is pretty close in age to James, and Spencer's become
    pretty fresh too.  In fact, most of your notes, I could have written!
    Spencers latest is when I give him a time out, or maybe I'm angry about
    something etc. he says "You Dummy"  Thats his latest and it drives me
    nuts.  Oh, he also says "You Idiot" but it comes our Idion!  (he hears
    those phrases in the movies, I think Little Mermaid, and Sleeping
    Beauty has those two in it) Anyways, he also comes out with you can't
    make me, etc.  Sorry, I don't have a solution, but I do have the same
    issue if that helps a little.  I know it helps me when I hear that
    another child about the same age does the same thing, maybe just a
    stage......
    
    elizabeth
    

    Mine has gone through that stage, I am not sure what happened, it just
    sort of left.  However now when I scold him, he laughs in my face.  He
    really thinks it is funny!  He is almost 8.  I am not trying to be
    discouraging, but I think every kid goes through different spurts of
    the same thing.  "I am my own person. . . aren't I?" trial runs.  I
    wish I could help you, if I find something that works here, I'll share
    it.  
    
    However, know that you are not not not not not alone!
    
    Cathernie

    From the time my husband and I started dating, I watched his daughter
    alot when he worked, etc when she came to stay with him.  When she was
    about 4, (I wasn't her stepmother yet), she told me "you can't tell me
    what to do, you're not my mommy".  I had been dreading this.  I told
    her "you're right, I'm not your mommy, because if I were, you would
    look different."   This doesn't really make sense to us adults as an
    appropriate response, but it made her think.  I've never had a problem
    with that since (she's 8).
    
    Angie

    My sister (a never-married single) once dated a divorced man 
    whose kids used to give her the same guff.  She used to say
    something like, "You're right, I'm not your mother, but I am
    an adult who cares about you and wants you to grow up right."
    Well, after a few months of this, she finally lost her cool
    with the brattier of the two kids and said, "You're right,
    I'm not your mother, because if I were, you'd have the sorest
    *** in Cleveland."
    
    FWIW.

    Ryan has also been quite sassy lately - his latest is to scream "I hate
    you" when I make him do timeout. I try to keep my voice as calm as
    possible and agree with him, that I bet he does hate me right now, and
    I tell him that there's a lot of times that I don't like the things he
    does either. It seems to take the sting right out of his scream....
    
    

My daughter will be 4 in November and she's going through the same things as
everyone else mentioned.  When I tell her don't do something (whatever it is)
she sticks out her tongue and says "too bad I did it anyways" !  And she's a
carbon copy of what all these other noters have said !  

This past weekend I took her to Maine where my mother and father has a motor home
parked at a trailer park and I could see that they couldn't wait till we left !!
My mother kept saying give me her for a week and I'll straighten her out.  
But the ride home was one for the books.  On the way home I stopped at a store to
buy something to drink and she's insisting to get gum (again) and when I said NO
she of course threw a fit and when she got in the car she threw her doll at my 
mother and wouldn't you know it wacked her in the head and broke her eyeglasses.
It didn't even phase my daughter what she did she just looked stuck out her 
tongue and said "well you would'nt buy me any gum"  I really couldn't wait to get
her home to my husband.

So your not alone.

Sandy

>I really couldn't wait to get her home to my husband ...

Why wait?

My family (mother, father, sister, brother, and in-laws) have a blanket approval
to reprimand and discipline my child at anytime ... infront of me or otherwise!

I'm not sure what I would have done had things gone that far, however, I can
assure you that my kid would be WANTING her father when I arrived home ... 
because she DEFINATELY would NOT be WANTING ME!  (And when Jim heard what she
did, she wouldn't be wanting him either!)

Dottie

    I may get flamed on this, but I just couldn't resist.
    There are some behaviors in our family that cann't be tolerated.
    When my 4 yr old hit the limit, he usually got a warning first.
    If he continued his behavior, then he will be punished.  The
    punishment is usually a timeout.  But there are times, he will
    be spanked.  And all the time, he knows perfectly well whether 
    his behavior is acceptable or not.  
    
    If he did what .8's daughter did, I must say that he will be 
    spanked hard and you can bet that he will also get a timeout.
    
    Wendy 
    

    I nominate myself for bad mother of the century award... because... I
    would never tolerate the kind of behavior you talk about.. from such
    young children!  My kids are almost 19, and 16... and they still don't
    talk to me, or anyone else that way... they have been taught that they
    MUST respect other people.

    My son has a horrible temper... he was in therapy twice for it!  He has
    learned to control it!  And yet, even as mad as he would get with us..
    he NEVER was disrespectful.

    I was an abuse child, so my kids did not get spanked very often... but
    when they did, it was well deserved.  I think any child who behaves
    this way should be spanked... and definitely put that child in therapy. 
    If they are this way now, how will they be when they reach the trying
    teen years???

When I first read .8, my quick response was "I would have slapped Juli's hands
and slapped them good" (not repeatedly, just one good crack on each hand) --
but I didn't want to start a "flaming note" by admitting that I would strike
my child - especially since Jim/I are both ADAMENTLY AGAINST spanking and
I can count on one hand the times I have slapped Juli's hands (turning on
the stove buttons and setting a potholder on fire, spitting in my face,
biting after repeated warnings and once I slapped her leg for kicking me in
the gut REAL HARD while changing her - took the wind right out of my lungs).
We do NOT spank, HOWEVER, she would definately have gotten her hands slapped
hard, sat down with a stiff warning "you move and you ARE DEAD" (this really
scares her, because Jim/I are pretty easy going, so Juli fears us when we
reach "the limit" ... AND ... I would have offered to pay for the glasses
to be repaired and if refused (which my folks would!), I would get a gift
certificate from the hairdresser's or grocery store ... and I would tell Jim
when we got home, he would give Juli a chance to tell her story (even though
he knows there's no excuse here!) and then told her how disappointed he was
in her behavior (it does bother Juli to have us disappointed or upset with
her ... she gets real apologetic and affectionate after a stiff reprimand
and usually does calm down considerably for quite sometime thereafter).

I'm talking about a child who will be "3" in September.  All kids, all ages
do the darndest, shocking things ... no matter how well they have been
groomed or disciplined "to date", but it's never too late to grab the bull
by the horns and let them know who's in control ... and SHOW THEM!  As I've
said many times before, yelling at my kid only raised MY BLOOD PRESSURE ...
it did absolutely nothing to the kid!  Kids understand ACTION and I believe
in acting on behavior WHEN IT OCCURS ... there's not a whole heck of a lot
"Dad" can do about it several hours later!  There is, however, a whole heck
of a lot MOM and grandparents COULD have done when it happened ... and I
would have hoped my Mom or Dad took a "pop" at Juli and I still would have
followed with a good slap to the hands to let her know we ALL DISAPPROVED of
her behavior.  I suspect Juli's emotions would have taken a serious blow if
we all landed on her (and she would have deserved every bit of our RE-actions,
too!) and I suspect she wouldn't attempt a similar "event" ever again.

So ... this is my reaction to .8's unfortunate incident.

Dottie

As an FYI when my daughter acted the way she did I was driving home from Maine
495 North with alot of traffic and it's very hard to pull over and start taking 
action.  I'll end up getting in a good accident.  But believe me I took care of 
it when I reached my first stop which was grandma's house, I let her know who's 
in charge and gave a little spanking on the butt! (because I really don't 
believe in spanking the daylights out of a child_)

me

    AAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, yes.. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut...
    I did not say to spank the daylights out of her.... I do not believe in
    beating a child... I had too much of it myself as a kid... but I do
    believe in slapping the hands if they are the offending part (touching
    things they shouldn't), swatting the butt for general wrong doing (but
    only if they know they were wrong... from being told before), and yes,
    slapping the mouth for mouthiness!  I DO NOT believe in beating,
    leaving bruises, using other instruments of punishment (belts, paddles,
    etc), OR in letting it go either!

    I will keep out of the conversation now... as I have mis-step the
    boundaries... again!

    M-L

    Does anyone know where my 2.5 year old might be picking up the term
    "bonehead"?  None of the people he is around say it, and his babysitter
    is also perplexed, since her 3.5 year old is saying it, too.  I've
    corrected David several times, so he has now shortened it to "bones".
    Is it coming from a TV program?  Anyone have a clue?  Funny how quickly
    you go from encouraging them to talk, to saying "Don't say that!"
    Sarah

    re .15 - The Simpsons maybe?
    
    FWIW, my 4 yr. old has been saying butthead, which I know comes from
    the GI JOE cartoon.
    

    There is also a paid advertisement on kid's TV against smoking.  I was
    passing thru the livingroom the other day and I saw what looked like a
    standing cigarette talking to another and she said something about
    "that butthead over there..."
    
    -sandy
    

    Yeah, watch the context on "butthead" -- it isn't a synonym for the
    a-word, it's a separate word for "smoker." 
    
    --bonnei

    "Sort of" related to this.... What should I say, to either AJ or a
    woman friend who visits frequently?  When she visits I just
    automatically hand her an ash tray and a cup of coffee.  AJ has several
    times now followed her and announced (rather loud and rudely) "smoking
    is bad for you, you shouldn't smoke!" 
    
    I just want to crawl under a rug somewhere, and try to hush him and
    hope she didn't hear him.  Which of course she does.
    
    Any ideas on how to handle this.  She is a close friend, she stops by
    to vent because she in the midst of a real bitter divorce which
    involves a boy and girl (11 and 7), and she doesn't need my 5 year old
    giving her grief with everything else.
    
    If it were anyone else, with a lower stress level, I'd probably not
    offer an ash tray, and probably say no smoking or do it outside, but
    she needs a shoulder to lean on right now not a hassle.
    
    Advise???
    
    Lyn

    Lyn,
    
    We have a similar situation, an older friend who is an unreformable
    smoker. I too have just decided to live with her habit (fortunately
    she is an infrequent visitor). I've decided to not try to censor
    Daniel. He actually hasn't said anything embarrassing to her yet...
    
    I thought I might try saying "Dan, I agree with you, but it's something 
    people have to decide for themselves." Then later I would reinforce 
    the message - smoking is bad news and our friend knows it, but we should 
    not treat her rudely... 
    
    Lucy

    My parents both smoke almost non-stop.  When they come to vsit we
    usually hear one of the two say something at least once.  I have
    decided that the boys are right to express their opinions, but they
    should do it in a positive, uplifting way that is not rude or
    disrespectful to their grandparents.  So far, anything that is said has
    gone in one ear and out the other.  My dad has even suffered from
    severe health problems that are smoking related and he just keeps on
    going - this is something the boys are having a hard time
    understanding.  
    
    I think AJ needs to understand we all have our habits - some worse than
    others, but we don't have to be rude about it.  He should be allowed to
    express his opinions - positively.  She should also understand that
    that she is in someone else's house and should follow the house rules
    (whatever you say they should be).
    
    -sandy
    

At the risk of being overly controversial--a grownup smoking in a child's
airspace is doing a lot more than being rude -- they are forcing the
child to breathe poison.  I wonder why it's considered rude for
a child to complain about that?

.19> "smoking is bad for you, you shouldn't smoke!" 

Unless it's said in a "nyahh nyahh" kind of way, I see nothing rude about this 
comment.  Both are facts, or at least opinions that are shared by most people 
who have objective opinions.  The second is perhaps unsolicited advice, and 
especially if you believe that _any_ unsolicited advice from a child to an 
adult is "rude," then perhaps it's rude.  But as for the "rudeness," doesn't 
AJ have asthma?  If so, her rudeness exceeds his on any reasonable scale, imo.

I guess my take on this would be more like.  "You are right, AJ.  Now please 
leave us alone for a while, we are having a private conversation."

And later privately say, "Yes, smoking is bad for you.  ________ knows that 
she shouldn't smoke, and is trying to quit [if that's true.]  But smoking is a 
very hard habit to break.  That's one reason why you should never smoke."  In 
other words, don't discourage his ability to speak up.  Not everything that 
every adult does is worthy of a kid's respect.

Clay

    My sons words were usually followed by actions - once he even had the
    nerve to use his squirt gun on my father's lit cigarette (while it was
    in his mouth)!!!  After I stopped laughing, we told him it was funny,
    but it was also not the proper thing to do!  When they complain about
    the smoke, we tell them to go upstairs or outside.  My parents are good
    about confining their smoking to the kitchen with the door open - thus
    I don't have the smell all through the house.  Usually it's when we go
    to their house that the kids get very vocal.  I think because we let
    them voice their opinions they decided they had the right to tell them
    off.  Since we have toned down what they say, they have toned it
    down in frequency.

    as for .24, thank you for giving me a chuckle, I would have loved to
    have been there!
    
    Thanks for all the feedback.  He does make his statement in a
    matteroffact way, not sarcastic at all.  Sounds like something I might
    say.  The woman is in the midst of a real nasty divorce, with a lawyer
    who won't do a thing for her, she herself is down to 80something
    pounds.  OK she needs to quit, but not right now.
    
    We do separate the kids from the adults.  Usually we will sit outside
    on the deck or go down to the family room in the cellar, and the kids
    stay in the livingroom with the nintendo or VCR.  Since this is usually
    in the evening, by the morning there isn't even a  hint of smoking
    anywhere.  I guess it's just because my first reaction was one of "oh
    please floor, swallow me up".  Just FYI, AJ's asthma is triggered by
    grass and outside type things not smoke or dust.  By the way this woman
    has a son with pretty severe asthma, much worse than AJ, and her house
    is very heavy with smoke.  She seals it up all year round, thinking the
    AC will take care of odors.  ya right!
    
    Lyn

    I wouldn't assume that because a kid is complaining, s/he's just
    being picky.  People's sensitivity varies a lot.  If somebody was
    smoking in our kitchen, even with the door open, I'd be able to
    smell it all over the house for a week, and would probably have a
    headache from it for that long, too. 
    
    --bonnie

    Now we are getting to "shhhh" Mom and DAd when they correct
    James!  "James, it's time to pick up the toys now."  "Shhh."
    
    *now* what?!?  I'm getting fed up with this!

    From earlier replies in this note, I know your child much older than my 
    two year old, but I can tell you what has been working like a charm for
    us.  A few weeks ago, I attended a workshop sponsored by my daughter's
    day care center on building self esteem.
    
    As any parent of a toddler knows, we were constantly reprimanding
    her and she was getting very sassy and no one was feeling very good
    at our house.  Everything was a confrontation.
    
    Me: Pick up your toys please.  It's time for supper.
    Katina: Go away Mommy.
    Me: No!  I said pick up the toys.  I'm going to count to three...
    
    The workshop suggested a few things:
    
    1. For a few days, leave a tape recorder on for 90 minutes and listen to 
       your interaction.  (I did this from when we got home from work,
       through dinner and bath... boy did I sound crabby)
    
    2. Figure out if "bad" behaviors are attention getting, power seeking, 
       revengeful, or a reflection of inadequacy.  (Most likely one of
       the first two.)
    
    3. Once you identify what kinds of things are going "wrong" you can
       find ways to respect yourself and assert your authority as parent
       without making your child feel bad and powerless.  The theory is
       (Adler, I'm told) that we all do what we do to find our place.
       If children learn early on that they can make choices, however
       trivial, they feel good about themselves later on and handle
       the big choices better.  (I'm sold on this philosophy, my parents
       raised me that way, although I bet they didn't realize it.)
    
       We discovered that Katina really needed our attention after day
       care (not surprising), that she was hungry the minute we walked in
       the door and if I gave her a snack right away, I could make dinner
       in peace to give me some space!  Also, of course, noone is at their
       best when they're tired, so we don't expect perfection.
    
       If she does something bratty (throws food the floor, does "Mommy go
       away routine"), I tell her I'm sad.  If there's a mess, she helps
       clean it up.  If she does something great (I try to catch her being
       "good"), I tell her how proud I am of her and how proud *she* must be
       of herself.
       

    Those are good ideas.  However, if I give James a snack as soon
    as he gets home, he won't eat dinner *at all.*  (Another story
    for another time.)  I've been working on telling him when he
    does something right/good/nice ("You've been very nice to Holly
    today, even though she's been so miserable with her cold.  You're
    a nice kid and I'm proud of you!").
    
    Maybe some time I'll tell him I love him when he's acting like a
    complete beast -- see if it takes the wind out of his sails.

>Those are good ideas.  However, if I give James a snack as soon
>    as he gets home, he won't eat dinner *at all.*  (Another story


You might try giving him his *dinner* as soon as you get home.  Get one day
ahead and then when you prepare the meal, put his plate in the refridgerator 
for the next day.  Heat it up as soon as you walk in the door and let him
eat while you prepare your meal and his for the next day.  He can join you
for "dinner" with a small snack or his dessert or whatever.

ccb

    Another idea I learned from the workshop I mentioned a few replies back
    (the key was to try and figure out what your individual situation was; 	
    I really like that.)
    
    The preschoolers' parents present talked predominantly about two
    issues, hitting younger siblings and dragging their heels in the
    mornings.  The lecturer suggested listening to the child to see if you
    can figure out what he really wants, presenting two choices, and
    following through.  She was adamant about doing what you say you're
    going to.  If you threaten to leave without them, do it.  Sit in the
    car if you have to and they'll come out eventually.  (I haven't tried
    this, but others in the room had and said it works!)  Also, DON'T give
    them attention by engaging in a conflict.  Back away.  That in itself
    knocks the wind out of their sails.  Discuss it later.
    
    One parent of a four year old who was regularly refusing to get dressed
    in the morning was going to try this: 
    
    Mom: Time to get dressed.
    Kid: No.
    Mom: Well, I'm getting ready.  You can get dressed now or you'll have to 
         go to school in your pjs.
    Kid: (no response, no action)
    Mom: Okay, I can see you've chosen to go to school in your pjs.
    Kid: You can't make me do anything...
    Mom: (don't engage in a battle)
    
    in the afternoon
    
    Mom: Gee, what was it like to go to school in your pjs?
    Kid: Mumble mumble
    Mom: Maybe tomorrow you can get dressed when I ask you to.  I know
         you try hard to do what I ask.
    
    The lecturer said she had done this with her son and day 1 he went to
    school (day care) in his pjs.  Day 2 he got dressed in the car at day
    care.  Day 3 he got partially dressed at home.  Day 4 he got dressed
    at home.  In her case, what her son needed was time to do things at his
    own pace, so she started getting him up earlier, so he had time.
    
    Again, I haven't personally experienced this yet, but probably will!!!
    
    And like everything else, this too shall pass.
    
    (Oh yeah, about the snack before dinner thing, a trick I learned from
    this notes file was to get salad mixings from the salad bar at the
    grocery store.  Katina gets to pick out what she wants (we usually shop
    Monday pm for the week) and most evenings she gets a little salad and
    crackers while I'm making supper.  She still eats later, because it's
    more than an hour away sometimes.)

    I'd like to hear from parents who've dealt with the fresh mouth in kids
    around age 9.  So far, all the material in this note has pertained to
    preschoolers.  Seems like those teen hormones are starting to stir
    things up!
    
    My friend's son Ed is testing the limits.  Ed is really a good kid,
    but he frustrated his single Mom a lot just recently.  She disciplined
    him hard (scolded him, spanked him - first time ever, and slapped his
    hands when he imitated her hand gestures), so he's back in line for the
    time being.  However, she wouldn't be surprised to see the behavior
    surface again.
    
    The behavior includes rudeness and sarcasm to adults, and  hurting
    the younger kids' feelings, all the while with a know-it-all smirk.
    He also let his school grades slip and is rather resistant to doing his
    homework.
    
    Ed, his siblings, and their mother are in family therapy following
    the breakup of his parents' marriage.  Ed's mother is holding up very
    well and all the kids (even Ed) are recoving well from problems with
    their father.  Their father doesn't help with Ed's discipline, having
    his own unresolved emotional problems.  The children were never abused.
    
    Thanks,
    Laura
    

    This might not help but it reminds me of an incident I had with Markus
    once.  Western children seem to be "fresher" with their parents than
    Arab children.   An Arab child would NEVER mouth off to his parents,
    especially his mother.  One time we were vacationing in Morocco and
    were in a shop looking at something.  Markus was angry with me that day
    for some odd reason.
    
    We were standing around talking to a group of young men (late teens)
    while my husband bought something.  The teens were very interested in
    my fair haired boys but Markus was pouting.  They like to try out their
    English.  I said something to Markus and
    he mouthed off to me.  You should have seen the shock on the teens
    faces and then they said, "You would talk to your MOTHER like that!!?"
    He then got a very serious lecture on honoring his parents.
    
    The lesson actually lasted quite a long time, especially after my step
    daughter married a Moroccan who has reinforced this attitude.

    The book that discusses the philosophy discussed a few notes ago with
    the 4 points of dissention, due to lack of respect, lack of control,
    and so on...can't remember! is called "Positive Discipline".  It is
    excellent, with pointers for all ages, and workshop instructions for
    school and home situations.  Your seminar at the daycare sounds like it
    was taken from this book.  I have read it once, and am starting again--
    it has very true methods that I find work.  
    
    For example, we heavily compliment Nathan for his manners.  "I really
    appreciate how nice you are", "Thank you for saying thank you", and so
    on.  Recently, he had a 103� temperatyre, and he was still saying
    please juice and thank you mommy.  Very impressive--I gave him so many
    hugs!!!  Also, last FURY episode, he screamed **MOMMY** **DEAR** MORE
    **JUICE** **NOW** PLEASE**  I had to laugh...
    
    Now learning to apply this to all other aspects...
    
    We are having trouble getting him to understand that even when polite,
    No still means no.  Next lesson, maybe!

            
    This is the problem:
    
    My husband and I work 2 diff shifts so we are always the only parent
    with the kids. I feel like I am not respected at all by her. Neither 
    of us hit the kids, but there have been a few slap on the wrist times.
    Mainly time outs in bedroom, in corner, No vcr movie playing (she 
    thrives on these, Beauty and Beast, etc...) not much seems to work.
    She listens to her father no problem. He has a scary voice. I feel
    like I am constantly arguing with her. I say I am not going to argue
    with you, You have 2 choices, Stop picking up the cat tightly or go
    up to your room. Atfer telling her 5 times to stop it. It is like she
    cannot even hear me, she hears what she wants to hear. I try to get as
    stern as I can without yelling all the time, without violence. As it
    is I only see her 4 hrs at night, I don't like to spend it all arguing.
    
    My hubby says he cannot even handle listening to us on the weekends, 
    her whining and me yelling. He doesn't blame the fact that I rebel when 
    she talks back to me, but still doesn't believe how she gets. She
    listens to babysitterm, grandmother, Dad, Pre-school teachers, etc...
    No problem. But me, she feels like she can walk all over and I won't
    do anything. 
    
    Even in the grocery store, she will be walking on the side of the
    carriage instead of behing me and I will see someone trying to get by
    and will ask her to come over here and point to the other carriage and
    say look let's let them by. And she will stand right there and say no
    and stick her tongue out at me. I feel so embarrassed either way, if 
    I yell in front of these people. I get looks. If I don't, I still get
    looks. I really don't care what other people think, but this is an 
    what happens at home a lot too. I feel like we don't have as special 
    of a relationship as we could and that hurts.
    I ask my family, Is it me? Is there something I could be doing better?
    They all think I am being as firm as I should. 
    
    Any ideas? 
    
    I want her to like her Mom, I don't want to always have a battleground
    with her. This just started when she turned 3. I do have an 8 month old
    and he came along right when she turned 3, but believe me she loves him
    to death and I don't think it has anything to do with him or jealousy. 
    I spend lots of time with her alone. I just want it to be quality time.
    
    It's like I don't even look forward to the weekends. If I heard someone
    elses kid talking like that, I would be surprised. I just don't know
    what I can do. She will have problems in kindergarten if she acts that
    way to her friends. I'd like to straighten it out now.
    
    Thanks for listening
    
    Charlene

    Are you talking about my child?    Boy can I relate....  My daughter
    constantly talks back to me and argues as well.  It seems like we are
    arguing all the time.  How old is your daughter?  Jessica will be
    turning 6 in April and sometimes I think: "God if its this bad now,
    what H**L am I going to be subjected to when she turns 13".  I've
    lately just gotten to the point where I tell her, ', Jessica if you can
    not talk to me in a nice manner and are going to argue with me then
    just close your mouth right now.  I won't listen anymore'.  Of course
    she always comes back and says "mommy you wont let me splain...." And I
    just tell her, that if explaining  means yelling at me and arguing with
    me then I'm not listening.  If you want to explain to me, then you have
    to do so in a nicer manner.  This really gets her angry and she
    sometimes will go to her room and slam the door.  At this point, I just
    let her go in there and sulk.  A little later she will come out and
    apologize: and as usual she's fine, but the arguing and yelling wont
    stop.  Its fine for her to keep saying 'I'm sorry, but when the
    attitude doesn't change, sorry doesn't mean much and she can't seem to
    understand this. I wish I had some answers for you.....   I'm still
    struggling and I always feel that any conversation with her always gets
    out of hand, but with her father even though she does have occaisional
    episodes, usually she is able to talk to him and have seemingly normal
    conversations.   Is there something about Mothers that daughters will
    defy them so much more?   Good luck if you come up with any good ideas,
    I'm all ears.
    

    
    
    My son just turned 1 recently and we had a birthday party for him.
    My two nieces, 1 is 4 and the other is 6 came.  I haven't seen
    my nieces in 2 months.  I couldn't *believe* how fresh the 6 year
    was.  My son received 2 stuffed Barney's for his birthday.  I
    took one of the Barney's away because I was going to return it
    (my mother bought it and gave me the receipt) and didn't want it
    to get dirty (I had bought a Carvel ice cream cake).  Let me
    state that my son was NOT playing with either Barney, he wasn't
    the least bit interested in the toy.  So my 6 year old niece was
    angry at me for taking the toy away because SHE wanted to play with
    it and her cousin was playing with the other one.  I explained to
    her why I took it away and to share the Barney with her cousin and
    reminded her that this was Nicholas' party and gifts, not hers.
    I was very calm and patient when I explained this to her.
    So she proceeded to argue with me for about 10 minutes and was
    VERY flippant.  Being 6 months pregnant I can tell you that I
    had run out of patience and I calmly, before I blew my top said,
    "I do not want to discuss this anymore".  My nieces parents were
    right there the whole time and did not say a word to help out
    and maybe even tell her to stop being so fresh.  My sister-in-law
    does not really discipline her kids.  She lets them run wild and
    if they want something, they get it, no matter what.  I don't
    know if that's why she is fresh or if it's just the age that she's
    at and that she wants answers and has learned to argue.
    
    I'm not looking forward to this age at all with my kids! :)
    
    I wish I had some advice for you but I was talking to someone else
    about this very same thing last week and they are having the
    same problem with their 6 year old daughter.  Hang in there!
    
    -Chris

    
    I'm just reading the  book "How to Talk so your kids will listen/How to
    listen So Your Kids will Talk"
    
    What a *great* book!  Just skimming through the cartoons gave me a LOt
    of good ideas for dealing with difficult-child-days
    
    It may not work for you ,but if you haven't looked it over, give it a
    try!
    Jamd.

    Try not to worry; I think it's the age.  
    
    When my oldest daughter was 6, I remember saying to her, "I can't
    wait til you're 7 because by then, maybe you'll be over this stage." She
    was so obstinate and argumentative.  If I said, "What a beautiful day!"  
    She would say, "No it isn't.  It's a terrible day."   Would disagree
    180 degrees with everything I said!  It must have something to do with 
    them pushing their boundaries.  Thankfully, she *did* get over it.
    
    Of course, we're going through another bout of it now that she's
    14 1/2.  :')  
    
    And now that I think of it, it seems to me that when she was 12-13, she
    was more difficult than she is now.  Again, it must be those ages when 
    they start to feel independent and grown up (relatively) enough to assert 
    themselves (never mind the hormonal fluctuations!).  And Mom seems to
    be the best target...
    
    Hang in there.  I would just try to tolerate what you can and keep
    reviewing the expected behavior with her. 
    
    Noranne
    
    

Charlene,

I met my husband when his daughter was five years old and I went through much
of what you are going through, even though I didn't have quite so much time
with her.  She was very fresh to me.  Also, my brother married his wife in 
exactly the same situation (a 4 year old daughter) at the same time.  The
situations both of us went through were so similar and similar to yours that I
wonder if it isn't universal.

The hardest thing that my brother and I had to learn was to keep our cool
under all circumstances.  I learned to never yell (and I mean never).  Chuck,
my brother, had so little success with his step daughter that he eventually
withdrew from any disciplinary attempts and any attempts to communicate with
her.

I eventually came to a relationship with my stepdaughter that was tolerable.
We both gained a certain respect for each other, we tried to treat each other
fairly, and eventually I got to a point when she was older that when she did
something that I didn't like, I could explain it to her rationally without
fighting.  I now (she is 24 years old and married with a little girl) can even
say that I quite like her, something that was impossible when she was growing up.

I put a lot of blame for the trouble in both my brother's and my relationship 
with our children on our spouses, not that this was necessarily their fault.  
They were going through difficult periods with changing relationships to their
children.  Their children's behaviour was not always under their control either.  

But I did notice that in the case of my sister who had her husband's children
in the summer, that her husband demanded respect from his children for his
wife.  If she had a problem with them, he made sure they straightened it out
with her.  It seems, from my experience, that the natural parent works with
the step parent to present a unified front and makes sure that the child knows
that this is another *PARENT* not another sibling to fight with.

Good luck, I know this is a really tough one.  You can end up hating the child
if you're not careful and that is unfair all around.

Cheryl

    Thanks for the feedback everyone. And I DO know that with each stage
    there will be harder/different problems, this is just the beginning, 
    I just want to have a special relationship with this little girl, not
    all the time, They will be kids. Just not as much arguing as what is
    going on now. It only makes us both upset and we go to bed angry. 
    She also tells me she is mad at me a lot because I work. She will ask
    my husband Is Mommy coming home tonight? And he will say of course,
    yet when I am there, she is in such a bad mood. I know I have to take
    into consideration that she is tired that time of night, and with all
    this winter (YUCK!) she is bored. When the summer gets here, we can
    swim and go walking and hit the parks, her sandbox, etc....
    
    Thanks, Charlene
    
    (Cannot explain what it is like being a parent until it happens)

    My son (5.5) is being pretty snotty these days too. I try to
    let it roll off my back, which can be tough. I tried the yelling
    route and it didn't work. Now I calmly insist that he ask for
    things in a nice way, that rudeness is not acceptable, and that
    we will wait until he can be polite to grant his requests. When
    he screams at us we ask him to go somewhere else until he's ready
    to be civil.  
    
    I try not to sink to his level...(!) Sometimes it works, sometimes it 
    doesn't. 
    
    Lucy

I  agree with the previous notes in keeping your cool and ignoring requests,
etc. until the child is civil and reasonable.  I can easily do this with my
own two children or even escalate a situation in a controlled way.  When my
step daughter was small I found this to be a very difficult thing to do.

I think there were a number of reasons for this.  The first one is that my own
children have grown up with me.  They are used to the way I do things and 
know what is happening when I escalate.  Raphaela, my step daughter wasn't
and when she didn't respond the way I expected, I tended to blow my cool,
especially when my husband wasn't supporting me (after all, he had raised this
child differently than I would have).  We agree better on our joint children.

Secondly, there was always a certain amount of tension with Raphaela that
didn't exist with my own children.  My children knew they had my undying love
and affection and I knew it with them also.  With Raphaela, learning to love
each other was not something that came easily for either of us.  She was a
personality that was very foreign to me.  I suppose I was also foreign to her.

Then, of course, there was a certain amount of guilt that my husband felt for
divorcing which isn't helped by the fact that the daughter he left grows more
and more like his ex-wife each day.

So I think there are a lot of complications in raising a step child that maybe 
are there but to a much lesser extent when the children have been with you since
birth.

Cheryl

    ARGHHHHHHH.  I'm so tired.
    
    My ten year old daughter Courtney lost a tooth yesterday while she
    was with her father.
    
    So, when she told me last night, we decided to put the tooth under
    her pillow even though she knows there's no tooth fairy (neither of
    us is ready to let this last fantasy go quite yet).
    
    And I decided that, since she's 10, she may want something more
    grown up than the usual barrettes or trolls or other little gifts
    the tooth fairy usually leaves.  So, I left her a set of 3 small
    bottles of Victoria's Secret shampoo and conditioner.
    
    Well, I woke up this morning at 6:30 to:
    
    "MOM!!!  GET IN HERE, MOM!! (in an angry voice)
    
    I'm trying to gain full consciousness and figure out if I forgot to
    leave her present from the tooth fairy or what.
    
    "MOM!!!!  MOM!!!!  GET IN HERE!!!"
    
    "WHAT?"  I yell from my bed.
    
    "I TOLD YOU I WANTED A TOY!!!!"   [She did??]
    
    "I HATE YOU!!  MOM!!!"
    
    Now, she's crying.   So I got up and went into her room and said, 
    "Geeze Court, I thought you'd like these.   I thought you'd want 
    something more grown up.  These are from Victoria's Secret."
    
    But now I'm mad.  So, I say, "Okay, give them back.  If you can't
    appreciate them, or at least be nice about the fact that they
    didn't meet your expectation, I'll take them back."
    
    Well now she decided that she'd keep them after all, but I wasn't
    going to go along with that after the way she'd behaved!
    
    So, for the next hour while we got ready for school/work, she
    kept crying and trying to convince me to give her back the shampoo
    and conditioner.  And I kept calmly stating that she wasn't getting
    them back and the discussion was ended.
    
    I did tell her that it wasn't so much the fact that she was
    disappointed (though I thought she should be grateful for anything
    she got), but the way she communicated it.  By screaming at me and
    telling me she hated me?
    
    I'm sure there will be more discussion about this tonight, but I
    need some feedback.
    
    -should I give her back the shampoo and conditioner?
    
    -should I buy her a small toy instead?
    
    -should I not give her anything to teach her to be gracious?
    
    How would you have handled it?
    
    thanks,
    Noranne
    

My personal opinion is that 10 is old enough to accept 
personal responsibility for one's actions and words.  
Maybe now that the emotions have had time to dissipate 
you can have a quiet talk with her, re-emphasizing again
what behavior you objected too - the yelling and demanding
because the gift did not meet her expections.  Perhaps
you might allow her to earn back what would have been a free
gift by some type of agreed upon behavior ie - cleaning the
bathroom for the next two weeks or something like that.  Or 
maybe just return the shampoo & conditioner, and hope that
the next time she receives a gift that doesn't meEt her
expectations she can handle it with a little more grace.
I would not just give her the items, nor would I replace
them with a toy, however, I might search for another gift-
giving opportunity in the not too-distant future.

Leslie

    > -should I give her back the shampoo and conditioner?
    
    No.  It's not a matter of the value of the items, but the fact that you
    repossessed them (rightly, IMO) and shouldn't reverse yourself now.
    
    -should I buy her a small toy instead?
    
    No.  She blew it.
    
    -should I not give her anything to teach her to be gracious?
    
    I wouldn't.  If the subject comes up tonight, I would say "we are now
    officially off the Tooth Fairy Dole.  She makes no deliveries to
    wretched ingrates."
    
    How would you have handled it?
    
    Probably exactly the same way, including the doubts once I left the
    house and had time to think about it!  And I also know that by the
    weekend I would have found some lame excuse to buy an inexpensive
    (toy-type!) trinket for her, and then have a talk about how ugly that
    morning scene had been, how necessary grace is in the face of
    disappointment, and how the Tooth Fairy has to hit the road sometime
    (I wouldn't relent on that).
    
    Leslie
          

We're having a little problem with our 3 year old son,
Christopher.  He is treating our nanny rudely and we are
not sure how to help him to stop, as I'm not sure we know
why he is being so rude.

By rude, I mean he says things like "I don't like you"
or "Go home now" as soon as one of us walks in the door.
There has been some name calling as well ( poophead, the
usual stuff) but I think he is starting to stop that as
I get very angry with name calling.

Christopher is in daycare 3 days a week (he used to go
5 days a week before the baby) and only sees
Elizabeth twice a week, she's home with our 3 month old
daughter all week.  Elizabeth plays with him, does art
work with him, and other activities (jello last week) when
she isn't occupied by the baby.  She is so sweet to him
but he just doesn't seem to want to return the niceness.

She doesn't hit him, nor do we, but she does have authority
of him so she can give him 'quiet time' and on one occassion
yelled at him for stuffing our kitten into a drawer (quite
justified and he is now forbidden to pick up the cat per our
rule).

This week, I am trying to leave more in the way of planned
activities for him to do with her to make it more playful.
We think its a matter of he is not willing to accept her as 
someone who can dole out punishment.  We are looking for more 
suggestions or other ways of dealing with this.

    Re .44, .45, and .46
    
    Thanks for the comments and advice.
    
    Last night, Courtney and I discussed what happened and
    the outcome is:
    
    - she's grounded for 3 days (at least).  Grounding means no TV,
      no radio, no phone calls, no going out to play after school,
      AND she must clean her room to my satisfaction.   
    
    - I kept the shampoo and conditioner and did not get her a toy.
    
    - The tooth fairy has ended her visits to our house.
    
    She wasn't happy about it last night, but she *did* go to her room,
    do her homework, and then started cleaning her room.  And by the
    end of the night, she was un-mad enough at me to give me a kiss
    goodnight and tell me she loved me.  :')
    
    thanks again,
    Noranne
           

Re .47

I also had this experience occassionally over the 10 years that I had live in 
nannies.  One girl was so unable to establish control over my son that she
just left.

It sounds as if Elizabeth has all the right attributes to be a successful nanny.
IT also sounds as if Christopher is a bit jealous and takes it out on someone
he feels more comfortable with.  He worries about losing your love but a nanny
is "safe".

First, Elizabeth should continue to remain calm and to not take anything he
says personally.  She will need support from you because it can be awfully
depressing to look after a child who temporarily "hates" you (I mean that only
very lightly since I am sure Christopher is generally a very nice little boy :-)
Make sure she knows that she will win him over with love in the end.  She 
should devote as much time to him when he is there as she can.  The baby really
won't mind :-)  When she has to be busy with the baby, she should try to involve
Christopher.  Even if it is only talking to him while she changes diapers or
whatever.

The most important thing I found in dealing with my girls was that I had to 
support them in discipline, even when I disagreed with it.  It I ever had an
issue with a girl or something that I felt was really wrong, we talked it over
well away from listening ears.  It like the united parent front only in this
case it is three instead of two.

I had one girl who was very clever.  She had trouble controlling Markus because
she was trying to follow my discipline examples.  This was not her style and she
wasn't very effective.  She had to find her own way and own style.  We talked 
about it a lot and she came up with something that worked for her that would
never have worked for me.  She joked him into everything.  I had girls who 
never ever had to discipline because they were so effective at defusing 
situations before they got that far.  But in each case, the child has to be
very clear about cause and effect.  The sitter has to be consistant and the
child has to know that X will happen if you do Y.

So far as name calling goes, I think even a three year old can learn that an 
apology is in order.  

Cheryl

    The book reference just flew by!  I have gotten so much out of "how to
    talk so your kids will listen, and LISTEN so they wil talk" I can't
    begin to desribe it!  Also Positive Discipline, anaother excellent
    book.  Both describe treating the child like a full person--if the day
    is terrible for them, let it be so, require that they treat you
    humanly, gentle acceptance and solidness.  What do I do?  Occasionally
    I "pitch a fit", but so do the kids, and most critically, we TALK about
    them.  I try with Morgan (1.3) and it works (usually) with Nathan
    (3.7).  It is a life long process, and the ideals in botyh books are
    applicable to audlt work and home life.
    
    ever trying (sorry for the typos; I have friday fat fingers syndrome!
    
    
    Adrienne
    

This is a reply to 188.63; I think it is more germane to this issue than to 
"chores"

>    . . . last
>    night when we got home for work, we hadn't even been in the house two
>    minutes.   Its pouring down raining outside, my daughter tells me that
>    she is going outside to play.   I tell her no she can't go out because
>    it is raining too hard.  She immediately starts yelling and screaming
>    at me that I never let her do anything that she wants to do (which
>    isn't the case because I will tend to give in to her rather than have
>    arguments about it).  Well her yelling and screaming/crying about never
>    getting to do what she wants really got to me and I told her that I'd
>    had enough and that she'd better go to her room right now, because I
>    wasn't going to take being treated like that. She doesn't even let me
>    explain to her why I say no about something, she just immediately goes
>    into a temper tantrum. Well, she went to her room and in a few minutes
>    she had calmed down enough for me to talk to her calmly about why she
>    couldn't go out in the rain.   So is everyone telling me I should have
>    said "OK go play in the rain?"

Actually, I think that you should have told her to go to her room until she 
was calm enough to have a rational discussion with you, and treat you 
respectfully, which sounds to me like exactly what you did.  As for the part 
about giving in rather than arguing about it, I'd suggest giving in IF AND 
ONLY IF she presents reasonable arguments in a reasonable manner.  In fact, 
sometimes even if the arguments aren't all that sound, give in if she 
presents them in a reasonable manner, if the consequences aren't severe.  She 
then gets positive reinforcement for respectful and rational behavior, and no 
reinforcement for yelling and screaming.

Clay

    Rule of thumb at our house is:  if you disagree, let's talk about it
    maturely (no pouting, no freshmouth).  If you can convince me
    otherwise, then we change.  However, if you are going to act
    irresponsibly and immature we won't even discuss it.  I always give
    them a choice in instances only where I really don't care about the
    outcome or where I don't have a preference to their reply (yes or no). 
    I like to give my kids choices to they can learn to discern for
    themselves.  When I deny them something, I usually tell them why I did
    it or ask them to think about why I did (I may have gone over it in the
    past and need to refresh their memory).
    
    I try real hard to get my kids to talk to me one on one and
    respectfully.  Sometimes, I don't get it and sometimes I forget to
    require it, but for the most part we are doing OK.  My kids are ages
    6 and 8 (both boys) FWIW.
    
    -sandy
    

    So, if there is an issue you BOTH care about..... alot, do you still
    discuss it?  I think you have a good thing going there, I play to try
    this with my son... but the issues which tend to cause the most trouble
    (resistance/potential backtalk) are also the issues with both care
    about.  So when you need it the most does the system fail?
    
    Jeff

    There are times when we have no discussion.  I'd like to say that our
    house has perfect harmony and that the kids always agree, but we all
    know that couldn't be true or challenging or interesting.  We do have
    the stomp up the stairs with the lip out so far you might step on it. 
    But we also have the old talk about how mom and dad are the ones who
    make the rules and sometimes you just have to follow them and sometimes
    you get to contribute.  The other day, Ryan (age 6) wanted to make all
    the rules.  So we made a deal.  On Friday night, we would allow him to
    make the rules for the rest of the weekend.  (Luckily, he forgot about
    it until the following week when we couldn't do it because it would
    have interferred with our plans.)  We have in the past played role
    change games (like on Step by Step last week).  We play the role of the
    kids and they play the parents.  It gives them a little feel for just
    how much "fun" it really is - they usually just "punish and put us to
    bed" and sit downstairs watching TV until they fall asleep.  Then I
    sneak down cover them and go back to bed.
    
    Oh well, we enjoy life at our house (for the most part).  At least no
    one has threatened to run away (except for me - once) yet.
    
    -sandy
    

I want to elaborate on my last note a little:

We don't handle every situation the same way - it depends!

For example, when we were out shopping for sneakers, and the pair that
appealed to her was outside our budget, the answer was "no, but let's
find a pair that cost less than $X" - this brought her into "the game",
so she started looking at the price tags to see if they were less than
$X.

On the other hand, when she wants to watch "Aladdin" on a school 
morning, the answer is just "no".  No explanation, no detailed justification,
just "no".  To someone who doesn't have the concept of how long 90 minutes
is when there's only 30 left before school starts, there is no rational
explanation possible.

/bruce