Conference moira::parenting

We have a VERY mellow dog ... and a very high-strung, sometimes mean and
forceful 2-3/4 year-old.

Juli has put our dog through every means of torture imaginable  ... and the
dog has NEVER snapped at her.  I truly believe our dog is brain-dead and
misconstrues the tormenting as "attention"  (dog's a 10#, 8-year-old Shih Tzu).
The dog keeps coming back to Juli ... for more torture!

My sister's dog (15#, 8-year-old mut) is less forgiving.  My sister has
tried everything under the sun to keep the kid/dog apart, but they seem to
gravitate towards each other despite the tormenting towards each other.  The
dog has nip'd Juli several times, but never broken skin.  I have told my
sister many times that short of tossing either the kid or the dog outdoors,
they are destined to rough-house together.

Juli just loves pets of all kinds and nothing we say/do seems to curtail
her teasing or rough-housing.  We just keep our fingers crossed and try and
control Juli when it starts getting too rough (and dangerous).

But the dogs keep coming back for more torture!!!

Dottie

    What I did with my mothers dog and my son is tell them both what was
    wrong.  In time my son did not bother the dog when she was eating,
    sleeping and or very hot.  I thought it helped tell them both what they
    did was wrong and I would direct it more toward the one who was at
    fault.  
    
    Good luck
    
    angela 

    How old is the dog?
    
    How old is the baby?
    
    How long have you had the dog?
    
    
    Our dog has learned (through corporal punishment) that getting rough
    with the kids is NOT acceptable regardless of what happens.  The kids
    get reprimanded for bothering the dog, but the kids bothering the dog
    is not an excuse for the dog to retaliate.  It has worked well, I can
    be rough housing with the dog and if one of the kids comes around the
    dog will stop playbiting on me and lick the kid in the fac, this is 
    usually enough to make the child disinterested.  Then the dog and I go
    on playing.
    
    Mike

The dog (Dana - male Greyhound, retired racer) is about 7 years old. 

The baby (Spencer - male Homo Sapien, recent crawler) is almost 9 months old.  

We (Wendy Thomas - Super::WThomas and I) have had the dog for about 4 years. 

-marc

    Our dog snapped at Michael once.  There was no puncture wound, but he
    did leave a scratch on Michael's nose from his teeth.  They were
    roughhousing on the bed, and the dog apparently wasn't playing but
    Michael was.  Anyhoo, I decided not to hit the dog because (a) I was
    more concerned about Michael at the time than the dog, and (b) I
    thought that would be a very bad example for Michael.  He is very much
    a copycat, and we have told him many time that he must never hit the
    dog.  After making sure Michael was OK,  I carried the dog out of the
    room and *screamed* at him.  He's only 7 pounds and a real wimp at
    that, so a loud voice scares him to death.  We've redoubled our efforts
    to supervise them closely when playing, and there has never been
    another incident.
    
    Steve

We have a two year old black labrador who would never bite anything but a bone.
You can put a bone in his mouth and then take it away from him and he'll just
look at you in the hopes that you might give it back.  Friends bring their
toddlers around just to get them used to dogs.

But he is quite active and can get too rough with little ones, especially if
he jumps on them (just playing of course!).  We teach the little ones to be
firm and "reprimand" the dog.  Although we might hit the dog when he has been
really bad with a rolled up newspaper, we don't allow the boys to hit the dog
in anger.  Nor does anybody ever kick him or bat him about the head.  He gets
severe and immediate punishment when he misbehaves but mostly rewards for
being a "good dog".  Around small children, we've taught him to sit, stay,
and let them do whatever they like.  If the kids get too rough, we reprimand 
them(!), not the dog who wouldn't dare retaliate.

The biggest problem is that the dog thinks my younger boy (11) is another dog.
They wrestle together and generally behave like two dogs.  They also have
similar personalities :-)  Markus has a really hard time when he wants to be
"master" to the dog.  The dog thinks Mark's a dog.

Even very young children can be taught to use a stern voice to the dog.  All the
neighborhood kids, for example, have learned this with Baron.  They also 
know that Baron speaks English :-)  So, the only English words they might know 
are "sit", "stay", "down", etc. but they sure know those words!

We bought a Labrador just because of these personality traits.

Cheryl

    If you want the dog to be more controlled, your best alternative is to
    start doing frequent leash training, if you are not already doing so. 
    
    That means at least 20 minutes of leash training once a day:  heel,
    sit, stay, come, walking in elaborate patterns and at different speeds
    with a tight heel.  Reward with praise for good behavior.  The usual...
    
    It reminds the dog who's boss:  YOU.  Remember dogs have a pack
    mentality and you want them on the bottom.  In our house, the top dog
    is Dad, Mom is second in command, followed by our daughter, and Flyer
    is firmly on the bottom.
    
    L
    

    We have two golden/yellow labs dogs 8 years old, Mickey (Michalob)
    and Molson (What else do you call a Golden? ;) ) Two boys, Kevin
    5 and Mike 1 years old.  
    
    With both children, once they started crawling they headed right
    for the dogs.  The dogs headed in the opposite direction.  We would
    supervise the children anytime they were near or could get near
    the dogs. Mike tried several times to use Mikey as a stepping stool.
    Molson growled several times when one of the kids tried to sit on
    her. She was loudly reprimanded, so was the child in question. Mikey
    is more mellow. Unfortunately, he used his paw several times to
    push the offending child away, resulting in scratches on arms and
    legs. 
    
    We gate off the kitchen at night so the dogs won't wander around
    the house at night. This also worked in the dogs favored because
    the kids can't at the dogs while we aren't looking. 
    
    Now, that the kids are older, especially Kevin, the dogs follow Kevin
    and Mike around outside.  Mickey loves Mike. I sometimes wonder if
    Mikey knows Mike was so sick when he was first born. Mike dots on 
    Mikey and is much more gentle with the dogs then his brother ever 
    was at this age. Mike loves to share his cookies and crackers with
    the dogs. We're working on that problem now by letting Mike give
    the dogs their "TREAT" in the afternoon when we get home. 
    
    However, I would never leave the kids alone with the dogs in the
    house. Mostly, for the dogs protection.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Pat K.

    We had a dane-alsatian cross (big dog). He was as  gentle as a kitten
    around kids. we attribute much of that, to putting him through
    obedience training, at an early age...
    
    When we would swim in our pool, if my wife, swam underwater, he would
    reach down and gently grab her hand as she touched the side (He
    wouldn't go into the water.) If we took Andrew into the pool with us,
    he would get very frantic. 
    
    q
    

    
    Some breeds are better than others. We have a black lab "Indy" he'll be
    3 years old in october. Our daughter will be 3 in december.
    This dog is put to the test almost every day, ridden like a horse, dental
    examinations, kicked, tail pulled, ect... he never, ever, has snapped
    or even growled at our daughter, actually they are bset friends. Two
    other little girls in the neiborhood, ask if Taylor (daughter)can comeout 
    to play, if she can't they ask for Indy next. The only problem we have
    is him knocking her over, which doesn't happen that often, fortunately
    he's a small lab only 65 lbs. We also have 3 cats which also go through
    hell too, and not cause of the dog. We couldn't have gotten a better
    dog. They say Golden retrievers are suppose to be the best with kids, 
    and labs are #2.
     If the dog has snapped already at a 9 month old, you've got a problem.
    You'll have your hands full with both the dog and child.
    
    
    We had one incident a month ago with Indy and a 9 year old little girl
    (The little girl is a little rough around the edges)
    
    This girl was playing with Indy, this went on for close to an hour, the
    rougher she played the rougher he did too. Well a 65lbs dog can get a
    little too much to handle for a 9 year old once he's all wound up.
    She and the dog were literally rolling on the ground wrestling, then
    the girl decided she'd had enough, the dog decided he didn't. Instead
    of telling him to sit (which will make him stop and cool out)she
    through a stick in the road, and being a Labrador RETRIEVER he went
    after it and almost got hit by a car, that came to a screaching halt.
    This was reported to me by another neighbor that witnessed the entire
    ordeal. I ask the little girl about it and to my surpise she admitted
    the whole thing without regret. The rules have since changed!
    
                                              Jeff

    As a kid growing up, my aunt and uncle had a generally good natured
    cocker-collie mix.  He was fine, but tried more than twice to use my
    forehead as a teether.  I ended up at the hospital more than twice for
    stitches.  Generally he was fine, except when you went near him with
    food around.  Once I went up to him, he was sitting on a kitchen chair
    next to the table, with food still on it.  I tried to give him a big
    hug, and he took a chunk out of my forehead.  I was maybe 6 or 8 and
    should have known better.  Short of that he was a real pal.  
    
    Is it possible the dog smelled food or milk when it nipped at the baby?
    
    Another friend had an Irish Setter suddenly turn on her 10 year old
    daughter, they were running on the beach at Plumb Island.  The girl had
    enough sense to lie face down on the sand, and the dog continued to
    attack her from behind.  Many many stitches, the dog was destoyed, and
    they have been told (I don't know the source, vet maybe) that this type
    of sudden behavior is characteristic of the breed.  Something about
    inner ear defects causing violent sudden behavior.  I couldn't
    undersand it at the time, I've know other setters that were absolute
    angels.  I still find it a bit hard to believe.
    
    Lyn

    I am having trouble understanding several points.  Why would you want
    to expose your 9 month old to possible facial injury and surgery? 
    Your dog doesn't respect the baby and views it as a threat.  Your dog
    is a dumb animal and cannot reason. The dog reacted and will continue
    to react from instinct.  This will include biting for whatever reason.
    Your baby certainly doesn't understand the word no and the statement 
    "leave the dog alone".  Your 9 month old no matter how brilliant will
    not understand the concept of respect for animals for a few years. So
    short of keeping them physically apart for a few years, you are risking
    sever injury to your child.  What is wrong with this picture?  There is
    nothing cute about a 7 year old (adult) dog snarling, snapping and
    biting (puncturing skin!) on a tender baby.  AND it will happen again. 
    
    I speak from experience...  One of my dogs has growled at my son and
    in the past 4 years there have been times when teeth were bared.  I
    made a decision and it was to protect my human child.  There is no
    other decision to make.  You either have give up the dog or make a
    committment to NEVER leave the dog and child alone.  In addition, you
    must always antcipate potential problems if they are in the same room. 
    My decision was to tie the animal outside until the child went to bed. 
    Then the dog was allowed inside.  No problems.  As the child gets older
    then we can try to bring them together.  PLEASE do not take this
    lightly, or you may have to explain in a few years that the scar on
    the face is from the dog.

    

    I am a complete animal lover and feel that they are an important,
    integral part of any family.
    
    That said, I agree completely with reply .12.  We have three children -
    8, 6 and 3 (all boys), a 9 yr old Sheperd/Lab dog, 2 cats and various
    small animals.  We had our dog before we had kids (he was 10 mos. old
    when my oldest was born.  Knowing that we were planning to have
    children, we trained Bailey (the dog) to be very tolerant of certain
    things.  For example, from the age of 8 weeks we would take his food
    bowl away while he was really chowing down to teach him to not snap at
    people around food.  He also has to sit and wait until we tell him to
    go to his food bowl (the comical thing is when the kids feed him and
    forget to tell him "OK".  We'll have this poor dog sitting by his bowl
    with a pool of drool around him!).  
    
    We have also taught the kids to be gentle around all the animals but,
    there are times when small children get carried away and can be
    downright cruel.
    
    As Bailey is getting older and having some health problems, we are
    becoming more aware that he could lash out at a child.  Fortunately,
    our 3 yr old is becoming more aware that animals are not furry toys but
    we still watch closely when they're together.
    
    A 9 month old is just STARTING to get into things and they can be
    across a room in less than a second.  To the basenoter - I would
    certainly pay attention to the previous noter - they had excellent
    advice.
    
    Sorry for rambling, 
    
    Linda

we have two large dogs, both of which are great with Elise.  Once she crawled
up to JP (a 75 lb Rhodesian Ridgeback) while he was sleeping and bit him
on the back.  He went straight into the air and came down growling.  Then he
turned and walked away.  This scared Elise badly. We were able to calm them 
both down and fix it immediately.  But JP didn't turn his back on her again 
for several months.

Becky is a 12 year old standard poodle who loves kids, but is a bit too 
aggressive.  She licks. And licks. And licks.  (This is actually a very sneaky 
dominance tactic. She knows we won't let her do any other dog dominance stuff, 
so she's found a way to use an acceptible behavior to her advantage).  She's 
trying to establish that she ranks higher than Elise in the family dog pack.

Now that Elise is walking and talking, we feel we can leave them alone for a
few minutes at a time.  Elise has been taught that dogs and cats are to be
petted gently, or she cannot play with them.  (We had to set limits *for* the
dogs, they were pretty tolerant.  The cats set their own limits by leaving,
which really upsets Elise.  We look at this as an object lesson in cause and 
effect.).

About the greyhound - I've met some retired racing dogs who are a bit 
high-strung.  Yours may be like that, altho not all of them are.

The tactic I would take is first, never leave the dog and baby alone together.
Maybe you can later, but not now.  You need to train them both first.

Second, teach Marc the crate is totally off-limits.  The dog needs a place that 
is completely safe from you and the kids. (The only exception to this is if the 
dog goes there to avoid punishment for a crime.  Then you can invade.)  If you
can put the crate somewhere dog accessible, but kid inaccessible, do it.

Third, spend time with the dog alone.  Take him for a walk, play in the yard
for 10 minutes, anything that makes him feel like he has your undivided
attention for a few minutes.  I found our dogs needed more attention as Elise
was less a baby and more a pack member (ie, competition for attention and
as she became a contender for high rank in the family dog pack).

Four, teach Marc to pet the dog.  Do this daily, several times a day if you
can, and reward him for being gentle (clapping, cheering, etc).  As soon as he
is able, teach him how to give the dog treats, like dog biscuits.  The dog will 
learn to like it and will calm down around Marc.  

Good luck.  It sounds like you have the basics in place, you just need to work
with both of them.

Pat

    > Your dog doesn't respect the baby and views it as a threat.  Your dog
    > is a dumb animal and cannot reason. The dog reacted and will continue
    
    I beg your pardon ????? 
    
    Understand that I am no animal rights aactivist or animal lover.
    There are some pets I'd just as rather see destroyed as not ...
    and these are ordinary household pets!
    
    Who says animals cannot reason ?  Who says animals are dumb ???
    Granted it is said by many that man is the only animal capable of
    reasoning but I don't buy that ... such comments are homo-centric.
    Just as we used to be terra-centric thinking that the earth was
    the centre of the universe!
    
    Dogs can be trained to control their temper, just as people must.
    Children can be trained to respect dogs ... and it is easier to
    do that if the child has lived with a dog.
    
    Stuart
    
    

    Re: last
    
    I think what the noter was trying to say was that the dog doesn't
    realize that the baby is above him in the pecking order.  While I
    agree that animals can reason, you can't just sit a dog down and
    explain to him that the baby really doesn't mean to hurt him and is too
    young to understand that his (the dogs) bed is off limits.  
    
    Dogs CAN be trained to respect all family members but the fact that
    the dog has bitten the child once says that extreme caution should be
    used until the owners are SURE that it won't happen again.
    
    

    re .16
    
    The tone of the note was very simple and clear ... 
    
    Dogs are dumb; dogs cannot reason
    
    
    Now I know that it isn't easy to train dog to respect baby and it
    isn't easy to get baby to respect dog ... but again the tone of the
    note was baby arrives ... dog goes.  That's a lot different to
    what is actually possible to achieve.
    
    Dog and baby can be trained to cohabit ... just as dog and cat
    can too.
    
    Stuart
    
    

> They say Golden retrievers are suppose to be the best with kids, 
> and labs are #2.

	As the father of two children (a boy, 8, and a girl 4 1/2) and
two dogs (a 5 1/2-year-old Golden (also named Molson like a previous noter's)
and an almost 2 black lab/golden mix), I have to agree.  Our
dogs, who weigh about 75 and 95, still outweigh both kids, and except for
the accidental knock-downs, have never hurt the kids.  Molson will growl
and snap at them when they push him to far, but he has never bitten.
He also knows not to take food from the kids hands ---- Maggie is about 
the same height as Molson.........yet she can carry a plate of food across 
the room and he will not touch it.  Unfortunately, Pauli is not as 
well-trained.  Both dogs are routinely ridden, dragged, teased, used for
pillows, etc.

	When Maggie was a newborn, Molson, who is exactly a year older, 
would get very upset when she cried, and would pace back and forth between
us and the crib until we did something to make Maggie stop crying.  I don't
know whether it was because he sensed she was in some sort of distress, or
whether he didn't like the sound.

	I agree with the other noters.......the dogs and the kids both have
to be taught what is acceptable and what is not.......whether the dog
in .0 can still be taught, I don't know.

Frank

    	Wow, I'm out of the office for one day and look what happens!

    	First of all, there is absolutely no way we'll be getting rid of
    the dog. We've had him for 4 years and have worked a great deal with
    him, he has a lovely personality and plays quite well with the baby
    (Spencer just giggles and giggles when he slips the dog his cookie).
    He is also a very, very mellow dog (believe it or not, most greyhounds
    are).	
    
    	As far as the biting, the dog was not standing there growling at
    the child and then biting him, he was asleep and the baby leap
    frog/hopped on top of him, it was instinctive. It (again) was poor
    supervision on our part, we paid the price (dearly).

    	This (again) does not make it acceptable and of course we are going
    to take very strict precautions with both the baby and the dog. Dana
    was very strongly reprimanded as was the baby (although not as
    strongly) and for now they are being kept apart from each other. They
    will both learn to respect each other's territories and positions
    within the house. Dana sleeps in a crate and Spencer will learn early
    that the crate is off limits (as it even is to me unless I'm washing
    the bedding).

    	I've always had dogs and no doubt always will. I've also been
    bitten by a few dogs (usually for doing something to the dog that I was
    not supposed to like rough housing) to be perfectly honest, a few bites
    from *mistakes* (I'm not talking violent dogs that should not be
    allowed near children) was well worth the joy of having the dog's
    companionship.

    	Admittedly, your mileage may vary.

    			Wendy
    
    

Re: .14

>Second, teach Marc the crate is totally off-limits.  The dog needs a place that 
	       ^^^^
>Four, teach Marc to pet the dog.  Do this daily, several times a day if you
             ^^^^
>learn to like it and will calm down around Marc.  
                                            ^^^^
Actually, I'm getting to be pretty good at being around the dog. 

Our son Spencer is another matter....

-marc (Spencer's Dad)

    Another thing to keep in mind!
    
    My daughter (2.5) and black lab grew up together. She has put this dog
    through hell as I mentioned before. I have a book on Labs, they say
    they are very protective towards they're family members, they even
    protect they're cats. I have seen this when another dog is around, Indy
    puts himself between Taylor (our daughter) and the other dog, also if
    another dog is around and the cats are outside he'll make sure the the
    other dog doesn't get near the cat.
      The thing that worries us now is that our daughter isn't afraid of
    ANY dog. She'll walk right up to any dog and start to molest it. We try
    to teach her ALWAYS LET A STRANGE DOG SMELL YOUR HAND FIRST, KEEPING YOUR
    HAND DOWN... so the dog doesn't think your trying to hurt it.
    
    We got our black lab because they are one of the best with kids!
    Pittbull, Dobies, Shepards, and Huskies were out of the question!
    
                                         Jeff

    Re: last
    
    I agree that black labs are great with kids - our Bailey's mom was a
    pure bred lab and his father a "sheperd cross".  He stays right with
    the kids when they're outside - when we go to my inlaws Lake house,
    Bailey places himself between the shallow water and deep water and
    won't let the little kids past him!   Also, when the kids were in the
    highchair phase, they used to "share" their food with Bailey.  They
    would hold his portion in their tightly enclosed fist and the poor dog
    would be desperately licking their hand trying to get at the food (he
    wouldn't dare bite at them to get at the food!)  (I know that sounds
    unsanitary to non-dog people but my kids have been no sicker than any
    others - healthier in some ways!)
    
    It is hard to get kids to understand about strange dogs.  We've just
    always stressed that the kids are not to go up to a strange dog at all. 
    Fortunately, while they are real dog lovers, they have learned to avoid
    strange dogs unless the dogs owner is right there and gives permission. 
    My littlest one is the hardest to contain as he thinks *everyone* is
    his friend!  Dogs, people, wild animals, etc!
    
    Now that the basenoter explained the incident further, it really does
    seem like the dog was just surprised out of sleep.  Since Baileys
    favorite place to sleep is on our couch (he shares reluctantly with us
    from time to time!) by the time the crawlers got to him he would be
    awake!
    
    Linda

RE:  20

Sorry! I got confused!  (Age will do that to you).

    How adept are you at training the dog?  I have a 2.5 year old, with two
    dogs and a cat.  The dogs are both 8 years old, and were quite
    comfortable with their lot in life until the little human came along!
    From day 1, I insisted that the dogs viewed little David as one of the
    alpha pack members.  No exceptions.  However, I also relocated their
    den to an area of the house where they could escape David, and never
    left them alone.  David was trained at a very early age to use the
    basic commands, sit, down, and come.  Actually, I think his first words
    were "mama", then "sit". The dogs got the idea very early that showing
    of teeth was absolutely forbidden to one of the human pack members.
    They were given a means of escape if they felt stressed, and David was
    taught to control them.  I never permitted roughhousing or wrestling
    with the dogs, simply because a human can say "Ok, I'm done", but I'm
    not sure if a dog can say that without using their teeth.  Tossing of
    the ball, a very explicit command to the dog to "drop" the ball before
    my son picked it up again, is ok.  Tug-of-war is not, since it's a
    power struggle. Wrestling and "tag" are asking for trouble.  Hide and
    seek is manageable, as long as the dog doesn't get overly-excited, and is
    a great game to teach in case, heaven forbid, you lose your little one
    in a crowd.  Good luck, and if you don't feel you can manage the
    training yourself, check the canine notes file for trainer
    recommendations.
    Sarah 

Please check out the CANINE notes conference.  There are several helpful
notes there regarding children and dogs.  One of the most interesting, to
me, pointed out the relationship of children in the pack.  While most dogs
will easily assimilate toddlers into the pack, they view them, essentially, as
puppies.  As such, dogs will reprimand a toddler in the same way they
would a puppy ... by giving it a light nip when it misbehaves. To a dog,
this is perfectly "normal" behavior.

As previous notes have stressed, the key is teaching the children to
respect the dog, and teaching the dog that the children are actually
higher than the dog in the pack order.  I believe this is far easier
to do once the child is old enough to give the dog commands.  (Obviously,
your 9 month old will understand far less than a 4 year old would.) The
difficulty is having everyone get along until that point!

I concur that continued obedience training can only help.  It reaffirms YOUR
position as alpha.  If the dog is used to viewing you as the trainer,
it will be far easier to establish acceptable behavior.  (I'm working on
teaching my collie that "Gentle!" and "Shhh!" mean to calm down, play time
is over.  This will hopefully help once our baby arrives!)

--Jennifer

    Thanks Jennifer for pointing this out.  this is what I was going to
    say.  
    
    A freind's child was bitten by her golden retreiver hard enough to
    require a trip to the er and stiches, and the dog was trying to lick an
    love onthe child immediately after the snap.  Birch and Goldie were
    both miserable when they were separated, until everyone settled back
    down again and let them be together while supervised more closely. 
    Goldie was just "discliplining" Birch for being in her food dish.  The
    problem was that Birch's skin is much thinner than his packmate's and
    tore instead.  Goldie has never shown any sign of snapping at anyone
    before or since, and it seems that it was a one time shot where Birch
    and goldie just didn't have enough supervision (people getting dinner
    together and the kid and dog on the floor  playing.  
    
    rule number 1 with dogs.  Never leave a small child and a dog alone, or
    even together if you can't keep at least half an eye on them.  
    
    Meg  

    
    
    Rebecca (18 months) has developed a new habit.  She is bothering
    the dog by pulling his tail, bending and pulling it.  I have told
    her "NO, the dog is going to bite you"!  And all she does is look
    at me and continue!  I have tried to remove her from the situation,
    but that doesn't seem to work.  I know he is going to snap at her
    one of these days.  He is a greyhound, and he is very lovable and
    will let anyone do anything to him.  But I am sure he gets bothered
    by this.
    
    What else can I do?
    
    Thanks
    Kim
    
    

    We have the *exact* same problem with our 12 month old and our
    greyhound. To compound the problem, our dog's tail was partially bitten
    off by another dog and the tip is a fused mess of tiny tail bones. It
    is obviously very sensitive.

    	Spencer continues to pull the dog's tail and even though I have
    tried to teach him and continue to reinforce no, that tail is like a
    magnet. I can only hope that the nip that Spencer will one day
    eventually receive will not be severe. (greyhounds are typically very
    tolerant of kids and I've even seen the dog allow Spencer to pull back
    his gums and pull on his ears without even a growl)


    				Wendy
                                                

Can you try and convince the child to "pet nicely" instead of pulling?  I
think it is easier to show a child a similar activity that is acceptible
rather than just telling them "no".

In addition to working with the child's behavior, you may also want to praise 
the dog for being so tollerant.

For a long time our lab (Cindy) would ignore our toddler (Michelle) when she 
crawled between the dogs legs to steal food from the doggie dish while the 
dog was eating.  After several months of our "yelling" at Michelle, Cindy
decided it was OK to growl when Michelle invaded her dish.  

Thankfully for us Michelle has outgrown her penchant for stealing dog food.
But I am convinced that Cindy only started to growl after she learned that
we considered Michelle's behavior unacceptible.  I suspect that if we had
reinforced Cindy's initial patient behavior by praising her, she may never 
have started to growl.

- Carol

    
    Well I see I'm not alone. Our daughter Victoria also loves
    our Bassett Hounds tail... Its funny I worried about Rascal
    around the baby but its turning out I have to protect the
    dog from Victoria. Sometimes I have to yell at Rascal to
    protect herself by moving away...she just lays there and
    looks pathetic...  All in all I am glad the dog is so tolerant
    but I still worry if about the bounds being overstepped.
    Maybe there is something in the Dog notefile.
    

    We have a Golden Retriever that Ashley abuses periodically.  The
    dog lets Ashley climb on her, pull her tail, pull back her gums,
    tickle her ears, etc.  Never has Molly (the dog) reacted negatively.
    Molly will get up and walk away when she's had enough.
    
    Now we were crazy with trying to get Ashley to stop her "playing"
    with Molly in the beginning.  But it never seemed to help, so we
    decided, only since the dog is so amiable, to let the two of them
    work it out.  
    
    Ashley does get her share of bumps from the dog, when Molly gets
    excited and runs past Ashley she gets knocked down every now and
    then....something that's hard to avoid with an 80 lb. dog and
    a 24 lb little girl.
    
    All in all, they live in great harmony and love.  It worked best
    for us to leave the negotiation up to them, supervised of course!
    
    Sharon

    I agree with reply .2  ....
    
    We don't have dogs, but we do have 2 cats (1 of which Caroline can
    never catch, but the other is fat and lazy enough to let her get really
    close). Anyway, we've been continuously working on this with our
    daughter. Generally, we tell her first simply what she cannot do (step on,
    hit, or lay on the cat, etc.), and why (it hurts the kitty, he might
    hurt her, etc.) and follow up with what she can do (sit next to the cat 
    and pat it's back 'gently'). At first, we had to show her (when she was 
    about 1 yr). And, I'm sure she didn't understand all the message at that
    time, but she certainly does now that she understands cause and effect
    alittle more. Now, at 21 months, she only forgets occasionally, and we 
    just have to remind her rather than show her. If she gets really wild,
    I focus on the cat and remove HIM from the situation matter-of-factly
    and I explain why.  Anyway, I guess my advise is to stick with a
    standard and simple message, and I'd expect it to take quite awhile 
    before the message really sinks in. 
               

    I think that letting the child and the animal work it out between
    themselves works, by only with your own animals. I really want Caroline
    to know what's appropriate for the average animal (while she's closely
    supervised, there is the off chance that she'll get close to another
    animal before I can intervene). I think it's never to early to start
    teaching kids that animals like to sniff you first and don't generally
    like to be patted in the face, etc. 

    re: .6
    
    I agree.  The thought came to my mind after my last reply, that I am
    very careful about teaching Ashley that other animals (those not
    living with us) are to be treated with respect and to keep a safe
    distance.  I worried at first that she would think she could pull
    any dog's tail.  She's 19 months old and has demonstrated that she
    knows the difference between members of  our household and what 
    she can do with them and "strangers".
    
    I am much more watchful of her actions when we are around other
    animals/people.
    
    Sharon

    We have a wonderfully loving and very excitable lab-mix, Misty.  I
    thought I would have to protect the baby....yeah, right.  Lindsay takes
    after her in her walker yelling, she corners her and won't let her
    through doorways, charges her while she's trying to eat, slams into her 
    water dish, crawls over and analyzes misty's tail and toes.  Lindsay is 
    8 months and I sit with her and teach her how to touch misty and pat
    her (sometimes having to uncurl her fingers and "pat nice"....she tends 
    to grab and pull)  They really love each other. Lindsay laughs when
    misty barks or licks her.  Misty cries when Lindsay does (can get a
    little annoying!), misty comes in from outside and locates Lindsay
    before anything else.  I worry Misty will have enuf.....but she's been  
    great and i tell her that all the time, give her treats, Lindsay gets a 
    teething cookie..misty gets a cookie too.  We just take it one day at a
    time...constantly letting them know they HAVE TO respect each
    other...so far Misty is ahead of Lindsay...but she's getting there too
    

    Please be careful about the tail pulling and ear pulling.  Those are
    two of the most sensitive areas on a dog.  Someday the dog might decide
    the child needs a correction, and you'll have a tragedy on your hands.
    Please supervise their interaction carefully.
    Sarah

    
    I may sound a little paranoid on this, but that's only because our
    daughter had two reconstructive surgeries this spring because of a dog
    bite.
    
    OUR (100# airedale) dog is "child-proofed".  as a puppy, he learned
    that ALL humans ranked above him in the pack, that ANY nipping or biting
    was unacceptable, and that tugging/chasing games games aren't allowed. 
    Sure, it limits the games you can play, but it also eliminates the
    worry.  (We also teach our daughter that she has to be nice to the dog,
    not jump on him, etc.)           
    
    The accident happened at a friend's house, and taught us that you have
    to also establish the difference between "OUR dog", and "any other dog".
    
    
    Jamd

    We don't have a dog....yet, but it's in the consideration que for the
    next year or two.  We're seriously looking at a retired greyhound, we
    also have a friend with a husky type, and that too it being looked at.
    
    Here's what we tried just this week when AJ was tormenting the younger
    of our cats. (He's a half siamese, and an absolute pushover, I mean a
    real "rag doll" type" that lets him do anything to the cat.)
    
    AJ (he just turned 6) was carrying the cat around under the armpits,
    letting the rest just sort of hang.  then he'd sort of poke and prod. 
    So I thought I'd teach AJ what it's like.  I, in a joking but serious
    sort of way, picked up AJ under his armpits, and let the rest his body
    just sort of hang.  It wasn't a great length or height, he simply
    weighs too much 50+ pounds.  And I sort of carried him up to his dad
    and explained what I was doing and why.  As I held him his dad sort of
    poked and tickled him. AJ was giggling, but he really did the the point
    I was trying to make.  I told him this is what it feels like to the
    cat.  He's been a whole lot more gentle since this.  I don't see this a
    cruel to AJ, after all he is 6 and should know what he's doing.  We wern't
    hurting him, it was more of tickling and over very quickly.
    
    Maybe since your child doesn't have a *tail* as such, try the same
    light hearted approach, and gently tug on a leg, maybe *gently* on an
    ear if that's what is being tugged. Of course the child's age has a lot
    to do with how you deal with it.
    
    Lyn

Hi Lynn,

I don't think I'd recommend a husky as a great family dog with children,
though maybe my perceptions are wrong.  I have mixed breed dog who is
part husky, and he has certain characteristics that people have pointed
out to me as being "the husky in him" one of which probably wouldn't be 
very great in a family with children.  That is, he is pretty much a 
one-person dog and very possesive about his person (me).  He does get
along with other people, and is so-so with kids as long as they don't
clutch at him or put their faces up to his, but he does become jealous 
if he feels people, children, babies, or other animals are getting
too much of my attention and will attempt to push them away from me or
crowd them out.  He does this to my husband too.  

He is a little bit more hyper than what one might want in a family dog also.
And he's very vocal, which people tell me is a husky trait.  He has quite 
a range of sound effects that he uses quite well to get his point across.
These include an almost purring sound when he gets his ears rubbed, very 
high-pitched sharp yelps when he wants something and isn't getting it, 
big bass barks when he thinks someone is intruding on his territory,
wolf howls when the tea kettle blows its whistle, and a whole bunch of other 
sounds too.

We had a dalmation when I was growing up and she was a great family dog.
We used to go on these family walks and we'd all be strung out, my sister
Sue usually way out front, the rest of us kids at various points in the 
middle, and my parents trailing behind.  The poor dog wanted to keep close 
tabs on us all, and she would spend her time running back and forth between 
the front-ranger to the rear of the group, stopping briefly at each person 
and then going on to the next.  I've also heard that labs are usually pretty 
laid-back and good with kids too.

Leslie

    Lynn,
    
    It depends on you and the dog.  I have a chow who is great with my
    kids, so-so with other peoples kids, and wonderful with other adults. 
    Chows are considered one-family dogs, and are quite possesive of their
    family members.  While most people wouldn't think of them as a family
    dog, she has worked out great for us, and another friend who has an
    chow and a child.  
    
    Remember, all dogs must have a repected space for retreat and most of
    child/dog problems happen when the dog's space isn't respected.  Never
    leave a small child alone with a dog, no matter what the temperment or
    breed.  A sappy golden retreiver who has never learned to growl, can
    decide to snap and do as much damage as one of the more "aggressive"
    breeds.  
    
    Meg    

    We've had two labradors and, in my opinion, there is no better animal
    for children.  Don't get one if you want a guard dog though.  The best
    you could hope for there is that they might lick the intruder to death.
    
    The main problem with a lab is that they are so gentle that children
    can really take advantage of them.  You can put a bone in their mouth
    and take it out again with no danger of the dog even growling.
    
    Our dog, Baron, after two years has finally learned how to bark.  He
    will bark at strangers who come to the door, mostly because I think he
    is afraid of *them*.  I guess this is enough to scare most intruders
    away but we got a dog for the kids, not a guard dog.
    
    Labradors are the most frequently used dogs in Europe today as seeing
    eye dogs.  They are intelligent, extremely gentle, and keep their good
    nature over the life of the dog.  I was told this by a man from a
    charity who was collecting money from shops to train seeing eye dogs
    while we were out walking Baron one day.  They also use them for
    sniffing out drugs but there are other dogs less even tempered who can
    do this as well.  He thought Baron was a fine looking animal.
    
    Labradors also, in general, love the whole family equally.  In fact,  
    they love everybody.
    
    ccb

    Hmmm, I really guess it depends on the personality of your Husky, too. 
    We have a purebred Husky, Natasha (Tashi), that is an absolute love. 
    She is one of the gentlest dogs I have ever known.  She has never made
    any moves towards any human and really doesn't have that "bond to one
    person" personality trait, either, she loves everyone.  She is really 
    wonderful around my daughter (8 1/2 months).  Now that my daughter is
    cruising the furniture, Tashi has voluntarily moved her "crash"
    position from in front of the couch to somewhere else.  
    
    As far as being vocal dogs, well, yes and no.  Tashi can hold a
    conversation with you, sounds like a high pitched wa wa wa wa, but she
    really doesn't bark.  She doesn't even join in when our other dog, a
    lab mix, is barking like crazy.
    
    We adopted Tashi when she was about 1 1/2 yrs old from a shelter.  At
    that time she was skittish and didn't enjoy being around people, but
    she was so beautiful and got along so well with our other dog that we
    had to try.  With lots of patience, training and love (all things you
    need to give to ANY dog) she has come around 180 degrees.
    
    The only difficult thing about a Husky is that they love to run, she
    keeps me in great shape, but I have to make sure that she never gets
    loose.  Your best bet would be to invest in a fenced yard with them.
    
    I have only positive things to say about our Husky.  I truly believe it
    depends on the dogs personality, and that's for ANY breed.  You must be
    committed to training, but once done you'll have a happy pet and pet
    owner.
    
    Susan

>                       -< Experiences with a full husky >-

>    We have a purebred Husky, Natasha (Tashi), that is an absolute love. 
    
>    We adopted Tashi when she was about 1 1/2 yrs old from a shelter.  At

	Without the papers to prove it, don't be so sure its a pure breed.

	I knew a family with a documented pure bred, Malamute ? the brown
	ones. This dogs disposition was very close to the one dicussed a 
	few notes back. The dog would nip, not really bite, people he knew
	if he got excitable. Barked the different barks also.

    We have a retired greyhound and although both (the child and the dog)
    had to learn boundary behaviors (Spencer is not allowed in the dog's
    crate or near the dog when he is sleeping and Dana (the dog) is not
    allowed on the baby's blankets) we have had very little trouble.

    	In fact, our greyhound is one of the gentlest dogs I've ever owned
    (I've had goldens, black labs, mini dauch. and muts).

    	I'm looking forward to the day when we can get another greyhound but
    as they do require a bit of training initially (from the track to the
    house) we will not be getting another until the kids can fully
    understand commands and consequences.

    	If anyone wants info on retired greyhounds, just send me mail.

    				Wendy

    Nope, absolutely positive, and vet is, too, that our Husky is purebred.
    
    Besides, just because she came from shelter doesn't mean that she was
    found wandering the streets.  I read the profile that the people who
    left her there wrote and it stated she was a purebred.  They just
    didn't want her; didn't want to be bothered putting any effort into
    her training, their loss, my gain.
    
    I still stand by my statement that it depends on the personality of the
    dog.  We have a Husky with a wonderful temperment, you will find some
    that are high strung, but there are temperment tests you can perform on
    puppies to determine their inclinations.
    
    

There are exceptions to every rule and generality also.  

Just for the record, Tucker, my part-husky, isn't mean or very nippy, 
but he can be a bit short with kids who startle him or get their faces 
into his face, and has snarled at kids three or four times, and snapped
twice.  So I don't trust him alone with children and watch him very 
carefully with children who are not old enough to understand limits 
with him - ie. my toddler niece who seems to want to get her face right 
up next to his.  As long as I hold his collar and have his head facing
me, and keep her to gentle pats and tugs they're okay, but ... 

And there is _one_ person that he gives his entire allegiance to.  I
can do just about anything to him, and he offers no resistence, except
for mail trimming which he hates and tries to pull away from.  He 
gets distressed when I'm home and for some reason or other, he cannot 
be in the same room with me. (we have some off-limits room to him, like 
the dinning, living, and bedrooms).  He'll usually sit in the doorway 
and watch me, or stand guard at the foot of the stairs when I'm in those 
off-limit places.  I get greeted like I've been gone hours when it's only been
5 minutes out of his sight, where as my husband gets a brief tail wag
and sniff even when he's been away for a few days on a business trip.
Every morning I get the doggie rendition of the Hallelujah chorus when 
I come downstairs.  I have to sit on the bottom step and do a couple of
minutes of "hugs & kisses" where he tries to climb in my lap, put his
head on my shoulder and "coo" in my ear before letting him out and 
putting the coffee on.  I don't think I've ever been the recipient of 
such unquestioning, faithful adoration as with that dog.  Probably why I 
put up with his sometimes impatience and excitability :-).  If he could
be as loving and gentle with my husband and step-children as he is with
me, then I'd probably recommend him as a great family dog.  Anyhow, I 
wouldn't have brought it all up, except that some people who've been over &
have had previous experience with huskies, have told me that possesiveness
and talkativeness (which isn't a bad trait even in families, only if you
live in thin-walled apartment or condo complexes) are husky traits.

Hope you enjoy whatever pet you end up with Lynn.

Leslie

My baby is 8 months and threatening to crawl soon.  How do I keep her
away from the dog toys?  More specifically, how do I keep her from
munching on the grungy chew bones?  Should I pick them up and keep
them away from both the kidlet and the dog when we're home?

The dog has no problem with sharing her toys.  In fact, she brings
them to the baby in hopes of playing.  It just seems to me that
rawhide isn't the best of baby teething items.

At what age can you teach babies that something's off-limits?

    Hi,
    
    Good luck - my baby LOVES the dog toys :). You can't keep her away from
    the toys, if they are within her crawling space she will get them and
    she will chew on them. Do you have a back porch or an out of the way
    room where you can make it the "dog's room"?
    
    Babies all lean "no" at different ages but what I have found with my 11
    mo. old is that she knows what no is when I'm saying it but doesn't
    have the memory capacity to know not to put it in her mouth an hour or
    a day later.
    
    Have fun,
    Pat

    Your best bet is to keep them out of site.  
    
    I have an 11 month old daughter and a basket full of cat toys kept out
    of site.  On occasion, my two cats will pull toys out of the basket
    and she will get hold of them.  I have been telling her "NO" for about
    2 months now.  But when I say it, she gives me the "cutest" smile
    and makes me forget what I told her "NO" for.
    
    I do have to keep them out of her site though.  She knows when I say
    "No" I mean not to touch something, because before the smile she takes
    her hand away from whatever it is .......... after the smile the hand
    goes right back to it !!!!
    
    Hope this helps !!  We have an almost bare living room at this point.
    Just like anything else, move it out until she knows to stay away
    from it !!
    
    

    If your dog is healthy and has had all its shots, I wouldn't worry
    about it too much.  
    
    You could remove the dog toys your daughter likes and leave out the
    ones your daughter doesn't take.  Just leave your dog enough to stop it
    from getting depressed or getting destructive.
    
    We reduced our dog's toys to a braided rope ("doggie dental floss") and
    a Nylabone.  Our daughter didn't like either one.  
    
    Next thing up - your child will play in the dog's water bowl.  It's
    always something else...
    
    Laura

    
  >>  Next thing up - your child will play in the dog's water bowl.  It's
  >>  always something else...

The baby seems to like the braided rope.  I don't mind that (it's washable),
so much as the possible chemicals used to treat the rawhide.  Given how
much the dog licks the baby, they're sharing all their germs anyway.

I'm sure the baby will be heading for the dog's Eukanuba soon too! 
  
Someone at lunch today suggested that Milk Bones make good teething
biscuits ... the ingredients are supposedly fairly innocuous and
they're less messy than the real teething biscuits!  Anyone try that?
(I can just see the look on my pediatrician's face if I were to ask him...)

    
    the twins love scoffing the cat food, they'll sit there and just
    happily munch out of the bowls. yuck!
    
    So we put the bowls in the laundry room, and blocked the laundry room
    off with a baby gate.
    
    Simon

    re .53: >>the twins love scoffing the cat food
    
    Some years back my stepmother-to-be inadvertantly
    ate a dish of cat food thinking it was tuna.  Her
    daughter had put it in the refrigerator, leftovers
    from the cat.
    
    It's all good protein...

    
    Science Diet! Beats cereal, toast, even *bananas* hands down.
    
    Maybe I'm too lax with #2. I called the vet and she said the contents
    were Ok for humans, so as long as I can limit it to a few kibble bits per
    day, I don't get too bothered.
    
    It really does taste awful, though
    
    Jamd
    
    

	Our dog Sadie only has one toy (the only one she didn't demolish
	in 1/2 hour of play ;-) ).  Emily loves it.  If it was one of 100
	toys in the place, she'd go after it.  It's been that way since the
	first time she crawled onto Sadie's bed with her.  I typically put
	it up out of Emily's reach when Emily's up, then give it to Sadie
	when Emily goes to bed.  Sadie's not so attached that she misses
	it.  I don't mind Emily playing with it, but she recently started
	to bite it, and it has some loose rubber that could break off and
	cause choking.  Whenever I take it away, I explain that it's Sadie's
	toy.

	I'd be quite leary of milk bones, they could cause quite a choking
	hazard, as they don't dissolve on contact with saliva (like graham
	crackers do).  My pedi even told me no teething biscuits because they
	could cause choking.

	Karen

    
    Dogs? They're very handy to have around a little one.
    
    	Ours cleans the floor for us after eatings (although he's not
    entirely fond of cheerios)
    
    	And yes when I'm tired, I mean really tired, the dog even licks the
    baby's bottle nipples clean. ;-)
    
    	As for the toys, they are all kids to me, can't even remember when
    they weren't munching on each others toys (the dog has even left his
    mark on some of Spencer's toys to make sure that we know who's
    territory this is).
    
    	I figure if i kiss the dog (and I do) then a little dog saliva in
    either of my sons is not going to do harm.
    
    				Wendy
                  

    GROSS!  I hate dog kisses!  But I do love my dog.  My sons will kiss
    the dog and then (sneaking of course) run over to kiss me and say "DOG
    KISSES".  UGH!
    
    I do, hoever, believe that the average house dog is a clean animal - to
    a point.  I personally hate the smell of canned dog food!
    
    -sandy
    

    We moved the dog toys into our bedroom.  She is into the water now...
    I hesitate to move that too.....Don't want to displace the dog too 
    much...now #2 coming..oughtta be interesting for them both.  Lindsay
    still goes to the toys but has pretty much stopped chewing on them...
    she dumps out the basket of them and brings them to Misty one at a
    time.  Yesterday she climbed in the basket and tipped over smacking 
    her head on my bureau...maybe she'll stay away now...???z
    

	One other reason we don't let Emily play with Sadie's toy is that
	Emily's toys are off-limits to Sadie.  First, fair's fair, second,
	I don't want Emily to try to grab Sadie's toy while Sadie is
	intently chewing on it.  Sadie knows to give it up to my husband
	or myself, but might not see Emily, who's crawling on her, grab for
	the toy.

    re: smell of dog food, trivia
    
    Dog food manufactures have to make a compromise between what
    dogs _really_ like in food and what human owners want to buy.
    
    From experiments they know that dogs prefer "aged" meat.  Think
    "road kill".
    
    From other experiments and market research, they know that the
    buyers of dog food won't give dogs food that smells bad to
    humans.  Dog food has to satisfy the human owner's desire to
    treat the dog like a family member--it has to look like human
    food, and smell (to our senses) like food. 
    
    The Wall St. Journal had an article on this about two years ago.
    
    		-John Bishop

	I just had lunch with my husband, and he said he had to give
	Emily a time-out last night.  I asked what for, and he said,
	"Eating the dog's food while the dog was trying to eat it" !

	Karen

            I have 2 sons, ages 10 and 6.  The 10 year old very much wants
            a dog.  The 6 year old is very frightened by dogs; all dogs
            without regard to size, behavior, etc.  I'm in a quandry as to
            how to help my youngest overcome his fear.  I am not aware of
            any incident which would have given rise to this fear, neither
            is my wife.  As much as I too would like to get a dog, I'm not
            willing to do while my youngest is so fearful.  Any advice,
            suggestions, etc. which you could offer would be appreciated.
    
    
            Thx,
    
            Jim

Find some neighbors with nice dogs and get your son together with them.  Make
sure the dogs are on leashes and stick by your son.  Show him that the dogs are
nice and not always nasty creatures.  He may not want to pat the dog at first,
but you should with him right next to him.

Talking to him and simply telling him dogs are okay will not do it.  You'll need
to show him numerous times that dogs can be nice and fun.  He'll also have to
respect them (don't think that will be a problem) as well because even a nice
family dog can turn on someone.

Our rule is that if a dog is on a leash it is okay to approach them and ask the
walker if they can pat the dog.  Any dog not on a leash is 'bad' and should not
be touched.

Personally I like to rough house with dogs and don't mind scratches or nips once
in awhile.  While I don't want my kids (at their age) to do this, I *think* it
shows them that you can play around and be comfortable around dogs. 

Saying all that I don't plan to own a dog.  We had one growing up for 13 years,
but with 2 cats and 2 rabbits, I'd like to try a pet-less home for awhile
sometime down the line.

Dave

If you know a neighbor with a dog that likes to play fetch, and retruns to ball
or stick by dropping it at your feet than take advantage of it.  You son will
get a kick out of "playing" with the dog.  If you son forms a positive mental
image of the animal as someone to play with, it just may do the trick.

/mtb

    	There is also a *huge* difference between a dog and a puppy.

    	If you get a puppy (and I know of no children that do not like
    puppies) by the time the puppy grows into a dog, your child will
    already see him as a member of the family.

    	You could also involve your child in the choosing of the puppy. We
    got our Black Lab, Toby, because he was the one in the litter that kept
    untying my shoelaces (I was 3) and we thought he had personality. I
    still think (decades after he has died) of Toby as being "my" dog.

    	Lastly, you might want to try CANINE, they have great advice over
    there and I've used them often when trying to handle some difficult
    problems with our current dog, Dana - a retired greyhound (who for all
    intents and purposes is yet another child that we have to take care of
    ;-))

    				Wendy

	I agree with Wendy.  Maybe if you could expose him to a puppy 
somehow, he would feel comfortable with that, and get acquainted with the dog 
gradually, as he and the dog grow up.
	When our son was a couple of years younger than yours is now, he was 
terrified of our nieghbor's black Lab.  Whenever he would see "Bear" he would 
run inside, screaming "Big Dog!"  Never mind that Bear was over 10 years old, 
arthritic, moved at the speed of cold molasses, and had never been known to 
utter a bark in anger, or the we had a dog of our own at the time, that was 
smaller than Bear, but far louder, and more aggressive (though not in the 
threatening sense) than Bear.  Like your son, we know of no incident that 
would cause him to have been afraid of Bear or dogs in general.
	He gradually grew out of it, and a few years later our nieghbors 
would hire him to take care of Bear when they went away on vacation.

Clay

    I have a somehwat difference of opinion.  A puppy would be more boucy
    and jumpy and less likely to listen to commands and would be more
    likely to upset an already scared kid.  A dog would be more calm and
    easy going or would at least listen to commands - see if you can find
    one that is calm, anyway.
    
    On the other hand - we have two kids in our neighborhood who are scared
    to DEATH of my dog - she is a mini schnauzer who will bark at a new
    face or just a warning that someone diffferent is here, but she has
    never bitten anyone, nor does she continue her antics once we
    acknowledge her.  These two boys are still afraid of her - still scream
    every time she comes towards them.  They both stand in the middle of my
    front lawn and call to my kids if the dog is out.  
    
    We tried to have one boy (who was bit by a chihuahua once) come in and
    we would hold the dog, let him pet her, let her sniff, etc.  That
    lasted one trip, then it was back to screaming and running.  Some kids
    seem to never get over it.
    
    Your mileage will vary...
    
    -sandy
    

    Well, we are in this situation somewhat...
    
    I have a dog, black lab, and my hustand's 2 neices are absoutley
    petrified of her.  When we got lady as a puppy, the visited, and would
    not even try to go near her.  We tried holding her and letting them pat
    her, still no go...  
    
    The 2 neices are now 6yrs old, and have laxed a little being scared.  
    We acutally almost got one of them to pet her throught the fence.
    
    I sometime think that if the parents are scared, the children pick up
    that feeling.  I know my sil doesn't like dogs, and when she tenses up,
    the girls get that way also.
    
    Good luck, now that we have lady, I don't think I could ever get rid of
    her, she is like my first born :-)
    
    Anne Marie
              

    We also have a black lab, Baron, and many of our friends bring their
    children over just to help them get over being afraid of dogs because
    he is so gentle, never growls, doesn't bark and you can do ANYTHING to
    him.
    
    The trick is to not force the child any where near the dog.  The little
    ones we hold out of reach or put them on a chair.  We then let them
    watch everybody play with the dog including the boys.  This often takes
    several visits but eventually every child that has come to our house
    afraid of dogs is feeding Baron from their own hands.  He is so gentle
    that you can give him a bone and take it from his mouth without him
    even complaining.
    
    I think kids need a healthy respect for dogs but should not grow up
    terrified of them.  We have friends whose 25 year old daughter is so
    afraid of dogs that she can not visit anyone who has one and crosses
    the street to avoid someone with a dog on a leash.  What a way to live!
    
    Friends of ours got a dog just for the reason that their daughter had
    an unreasonable terror of dogs.  A healthy respect is one thing but
    terror is not good to live with.
    
    Cheryl

    
    Is there any chance that perhaps you could take him to a pet shop, show
    him all the puppies, and perhaps have them take out one or two.  Ask
    what HE likes about them - maybe he likes one because of its size or
    color, or eyes.  Let him touch the puppy if he wants, play with it a
    bit, and then just go home.  A few of these trips might help him feel
    more comfortable, and feel like he has more control over the situation.
    
    Perhaps before you go, you could get a "dog book" from the library or
    look in an encyclopedia, and pick out different types of dogs that he
    does/does not like, and perhaps talk about why?
    
    We *ALWAYS* had dogs when I was a kid.  When I was about 10 I was going
    door-to-door selling something, when a German Shepard got me cornered
    in his yard.  Being a small kid, and a big dog, this dog was about the
    same height at me, and just stood barking and growling at me.  I was
    froze in place, terrified.  I honestly thought he was going to eat me
    alive.  I'm not sure that I ever bothered to tell anyone about this - I
    forget why, but the dog eventually just trotted off, but to this day,
    twenty years later, I hate shepard's from that incident, and am NEVER
    comfortable around one.  And you'd have a hard time convincing me
    otherwise.  Even when, 5 years later, we owned a shepard, it still
    didn't cure that fear.  
    
    Perhaps your son saw a movie or something (Cujo??!) that has him
    scared?  Can you talk to him about WHAT he doesn't like about the dogs? 
    Maybe he's been whacked in the face with a tail too many times, or
    there's something else you might be able to explain.  Perhaps .... you
    could get his brother a puppy and him a kitten at the same time, and it
    would help defer the fear of the dog?  
    
    I betchya him and the dog end up being BEST friends!

I had/have the same problem with German Shepherds.  When I was a child my 
mother's best friend had a German Shepherd.  The dog would growl and bare it's
teeth, and "tree" me up on the swingset.  I was terrified of that dog, 
though I liked other dogs.  My mother didn't respect my fear or my opinion, and
kept telling me the dog was fine.  It was only years later (after many such
times of her pushing me outside to play in their yard - with the dog there)
that she saw the way the dog really did act toward me and began to believe me. 

We've talked many times of getting a dog, and plan to do so some day in
the future.  I like big dogs, but needless to say will not be getting a 
German Shepherd.  

     Carol

    Boxers are excellent with kids.  My parents have one that Samantha
    can do anything to and it just kinda lays there and rolls his eyes..
    
    Samantha's daycare provider has one too - The kids use her (the boxer)
    as a pillow while watching tv!  
    
    I'd get one if I could have pets...They're really neat dogs!
    

	I'm not sure *all* boxers are good with children.
	My parents had a very dominant, tempermental male that they
	had to get rid of after 1.5 years.  They were quite concerned
	he'd hurt their 6 year old son, based upon some close calls
	they witnessed.

	Karen

    Just a quick word in defence of Alsations (G.S.) dogs. We had a bitch
    when we were younger who was extremely loyal to my brother and I. When
    we played football (soccer to you pond side critters :-) ) she would 
    make sure nobody got the ball from us.
    
    Later we rescued a Dog (G.S.) which was a bit of a problem and we had to get
    rid of it as it became a problem escaping and worrying sheep up the 
    local farm.
    
    Ian.
    
    

    I recommend the Rhodesian Ridgeback Hound for families.  Rhodesians are
    large, averaging 85 pounds at maturity, and have very short hair that
    doesn't shed much.  So it is easy to keep the house clean after them. 
    They are excellent with young children.  
    
    Rhodesians were developed in Africa from native, heat-tolerant dogs,
    Great Danes, and a few other breeds.  They were bred to corral hooved
    animals, keep lions at bay when working in pairs, and guard young
    children.
    
    They do require rigorous training as pups and even into maturity.  They
    continue to test your authority.  If you are knowledgeable in dog
    training and willing to maintain discipline while at the same time
    keeping your sense of humor, these dogs prove gentle, non-aggressive,
    and fun-loving.
    
    They are rather expensive, usually only available as pure breds, and
    available from a limited number of kennels.  If you want a pure-bred
    dog, and have budgeted for its purchase, I recommend a Rhodesian.
    
    The Cocker Spaniel is America's most popular breed.  I've heard that
    they can be tempermental and not the best for young children.
    
    I think that very small dogs tend to be tempermental.  If you do get a
    miniature or other small dog, don't stint on training.  They can learn
    as well as a large dog.
    
    Be careful when buying a German Shepard.  Many have hip dysplasia, a
    serious anomaly.  The genetics of this breed have been damaged by
    breeders who bred only for certain characteristics.
    
    I believe that medium or large poodles have a good reputation for
    intelligence and behavior.  The large poodles look dignified if you
    don't clip their hair in those stylish ways.
    
    Overall, I think a medium or large dog is best for temperment.  Just be
    aware that the very large dogs, such as Great Danes, tend to be
    short-lived because their hearts are often not big enough to sustain
    them for more than 10-14 years.
    
    Know that getting any dog is a major commitment of your time and
    energy.  House breaking can be time-consuming and very messy, and there
    may always be lapses due to change of diet or illness.  You have to
    plan your daily schedule around feeding and walking them.  You must
    arrange kennel care when you travel.  If you want a dog that is easy to
    live with and a welcome companion to you and your guests, you must
    invest substantial time in training the dog, particularly for the first
    few years.  No obedience school can substitute for your attentions.  
    
    Too many people get a dog, discover they've made a mistake, then turn
    the dogs loose in the country or give them to the pound.  This is a
    shame and I wish fewer people made such a mistake, then compounded it
    by abandoning their dogs.
    
    Laura

    I'd like to put a plug in for a Retired Greyhound.  Specifically if you
    call the Retired Greyhound society, in Hopkinton, or the Plainfield CT
    racetrack for the local (to you) foster "parent" of these dogs.  We
    have been considering one of these dogs for a number of years.  I
    invited  our local "foster parent" to our home when AJ was a toddler,
    he brought one of his brood. There wasAJ, my two cats, a friend came
    with his two girls and wife, and of course the two of us, in a fairly
    small area.  This dog was unphased by kids, cats, noises and just
    seemed so calm and proud.
    
    The beauty of adopting one of these dogs is in general you get a dog
    about three years old, although pups are available who have never
    raced. and something very important is that if it doesn't work out
    between the dog and you, or your circumstances change and you can't
    keep the dog they will take it back, rather than have it abused or put
    down.
    
    There is a similar program in New Hampshire, but from a friend I
    learned that they will not take the pup back if it doesn't work out.
    (the Seabrook racetrack is the contact there)
    
    Lyn 

    
    
    if you can, invest in training.  We picked up an Airedale pup at 8
    weeks and dropped him off at the Colorado Academy for 4 weeks.  When we
    picked him up, he could sit, lay down, heel, (well, sort of) but most
    importantly, he knew that nipping, chewing, and biting were not
    allowed, ever, with humans.  Since he has since grown to be 105+ lbs,
    we're glad he had the early training.
    
    Jamd
    PS _ I'd put in a vote for Airedales: They usually are much smaller
    than ours (~55 lbs) they're good family dogs, and have great patience
    with children (as long as they grow up with them) my two pull hair, lie
    on him, and have been known to pry food out of his mouth... his only
    dominance thing is he's aggresive about licking them. Oh, and they
    don't shed!

    I'm trying to get the node for the CANINE conference....can anybody
    help me?!?
    
    Thx,
    
    ..Lori

    Believe it or not - DOGS::

    Thanks!  Guess I should have thought of the obvious, but my brain
    functions on lowkey by Fridays!
    
    ..Lori

    Some close friends called this morning with very sad news.
    Their 8 year old daughter went to a freind's house to play
    and was attacked by their Akita, about 20 serious facial bites,
    15 hours on the operating table and many hundred stitches.  She's
    home now.  Her parents are reeling.

    I'm wondering what experiences like this others may have had,
    how kids recover from this both physically and mentally, and what
    suggestions you could make that we could do for them.
    Thanks for any thoughts
    bob

    I don't have any experience with dog bites, but I would suggest that
    your friends be sure to get a copy of a rabies certificate!  Otherwise,
    their daughter may be in for even more pain with rabies treatment.
    
    My prayers are with the little girl.  HOw horrible!  I've been attacked
    by a cat before, but not nearly as bead as this poor little girl (cat
    basically shred my arm and leg with numerous bites and scratches).
    
    Holly
    

    
       This is sad news. My son Johnathan was only 8 years old when he
    got bit in the face by a doberman/husky. He looked very doberman. 
    
       He was rushed to the hospital and fortunately there was a plastic
    surgeon there. He had to use a straw to drink (very slowly) and we
    had to sorta scoop soft food in his mouth. His face had swollen.
    
       The doctors talked to him, he went to counseling. He's not afraid
    of dogs today. He's now 20 years old. The best part is that they
    did such a fine job with the plastic surgery that there was no
    visible scarring. I know he didn't have in the 'hundreds' though
    as far as the stiching goes. It was under 100. So, I'll be praying
    for her. 
    
        One thing I want to mention, this may not happen, but sometimes
    other children can be cruel. When my son went to school a day
    or two before the stiches were taken out the kids called him names.
    'Stitch face'. One kid even said. "Hey stitch mouth!" and grabbed
    his mouth and twisted it! These were 8 and 9 year olds! Maybe try
    preparing her somehow that she may have to face this? I really don't
    know. He wanted to go to school, I kinda wished I had waited until
    after the stiches were out. But, maybe nothing like this will
    happen with her. 
    
         Definately make sure the animal had rabies shots!
    
         Rosie

I was bit in the face by a small dog I had known all my life.  I was 6.
I have lived next door to this dog for my first 5 years, was back for a visit
(which we did periodically), and leaned down to say goodbye to the dog and
give it a hug - while it was eating.  I had been told not to get near dogs
while they were eating.  My mother even reminded me seconds before I did it,
and I acknowledged her, "I know, Mom."  Then, due to a total disconnect in
my mind of what she was saying and what I was doing, I still did it.  *sigh.

I remember the blood and the car ride to a doctor's office.  I remember the
inside of the doctor's office, but my memory is black as soon as the doctor
reaches for my lip.  It's the only spot in my memory (that I'm aware of) that
I've repressed, and until just a few years ago I had assumed that I had become
unconscious during that time.  After telling my mother that, she assured me
that no, I was not unconscious, and I was screaming the whole time. 

The doctor apparently did a very good job of stitching up my lip and the area
above it (the places I was bit).  However, throughout my growing up I thought
the scar was instantly visible to *everyone* who saw me.  Sometimes I would
believe people when they told me I was pretty, but other times I thought,
"except for my lip" or "they're just being nice; I know my mouth/smile is
ugly."  It was odd how I would go back and forth like that, feeling either 
very good about my looks or feeling totally scarred.  I think I was an adult
before I realized that I *didn't* have a funny smile because of the scar.
I know I'm still surprised when people who have known me for years have never
noticed the scar.

I did not develop a fear of dogs from this experience.

<    how kids recover from this both physically and mentally, and what
<    suggestions you could make that we could do for them.

The only suggestion I can think of offhand is to use the best plastic surgeon
you can get to do the work.  It's worth it.
 
       Carol

	Bob,

	How is the little girl who got bit by the dog doing?

	Karen T.

    My wife and kids saw her with her family at the mall on Sunday.
    They said she looked startlingly bad.  But her spirits were good.
    My wife said our kids did a good job not staring.

    She was worried about going back to school the next day.

    One side of her face was ok, but one side was covered with bandages
    and swollen.  Her lip was swollen and has a large tear.

    I dont think the talked about real details right then
    bob

    
       Poor child, I remember when my sons face was SO swollen! They
    can do such a wonderful job now with surgery. I'll be praying for
    her. 
    
        rosie