Conference moira::parenting

    I don't have any suggestions really except I know what you are going
    through.  My niece is 10 (11 in July) and she is the same way.  My
    sister grounds her if she has to remind her of something too many
    times.  Right now she is grounded for being late..she says her friends
    watch said that she wasn't..my sister and I both told her that you are 
    responsible for yourself and that you can not blame others for it.  I
    think that kids at this age are trying to understand who they are and
    trying to fit in with the "In" kids, ya know the ones that say their
    mothers NEVER tell them what to do.  My niece has a really bad attitude
    right now and believe me there are times that I would like to send her
    into next week.  
    
    ~Linda~

     If it makes you feel any better, insert "almost" before "nine," change
"daughter" to "son," change "rabbit" to "gerbil," and you've got our
household.  And yeah, it's really simple basic "GEEZ don't you want to ..."
kind of stuff.  (Not to gross you out, but guess what conclusion I draw when
I fold the laundry and there's one pair of underwear for him and three or
four for everyone else).
     Ain't no easy solution that I'm aware of.  There are a few of things
that we have moderate success with.  He's really into sports, and he likes
watching "Sports Desk" in the morning.  We have a standing rule that the TV
does not go on until he's dressed, his bed is made and his shade is up. And 
if he wants to do something, like have a friend over, or go to a friends, he 
will sometimes get a response like "Don't even ask until ____ is done" or 
"Until _____ is done, the answer is no."
     And sometimes I will, like you do, interrupt what he's doing and say "Do
____ NOW."  Like with your daughter, sometimes the interruptions p*** him
off, and he does the door slamming and heavy sighing bit.  The only
suggestion I have is not to wait till you're at the end of your rope before
you do this.  You can do it calmly but firmly, but you're not shouting, and
you're less likely to overreact to the bratty reaction and the door slamming.
     But the above only work to a limited extent, and I've become somewhat
resigned to hoping that eventually (perhaps in several years), the message
will sink in.  Fact is, we had the same problems, though less severe, with
our now twelve year old daughter.  And now she does most of that stuff.  Of
course there are a new set of things that she procrastinates on, and her
procrastination techniques are far more creative and effective.

Clay

    I can't believe that there are kids out there just like mine!!??  I've
    got an 8 year old boy and a 10 year old girl.  I use the grounding
    technique mostly.  I try not to yell, its just not going to work that
    way.  We have a list of things posted on the refrigerator.  If they
    want to go play after school, then everything on that list has to be
    done or they don't get to go outside.  As far as their rooms are
    concerned, if they want the priviledge of someone in to play or
    spending the night or visa versa, then their room has to be clean. 
    They each go thru phases and sometimes their rooms look like a tornado
    hit, so I suggest that they clean it so that they can invite someone
    over that weekend.  It works every time.  I always have to remind them
    about their bath, teeth, feeding of pets (we have too many of them),
    and I always ask to see their homework.  Routines are the best defense
    against rebels.  I still get the temper tantrums, stomping feet,
    slamming doors, and whining.  I just try to ignore it.  They hate being
    grounded though, so thats the punishment for everything in our home.

    I have one too.  Mine is male and almost fourteen.  Unless he is
    playing basketball when he moves at photon speeds, he would generally
    lose out to a turtle.  Three times he normally gets asked to do
    something before I blow.  I have to ask EVERYTHING at least four times.
    Substitute dog for hamster in the previous reply.  The carpet in his
    room stinks from smelly feet.
    
    Someone has told me that they grow out of this.  It will be just my
    luck to have the one kid who doesn't.
    
    I noticed with my nephews that at first you couldn't get them into the
    bathroom.  Then comes a magical turning point when you can no longer
    get them OUT :-)
    
    Cheryl

We had one of these until last week.........then all of a sudden we're
getting cooperation!!!   (He turned 8 in May.)  We are using positive 
reinforcement like crazy to see if it maintains......I'll let you know.  
We're keeping our fingers crossed.


Frank

    re a few notes back about posting things on the frig. I only wish I
    were home when she gets home from school! She goes to my mothers house 
    and stays there till I get home..sometimes not till 7. So even if 
    I did give her a list of rules to follow after school..chances are ..
    if mom's not around... she's not gonna do anything right? My parents are 
    so lenient with her...my mother says: well, she wasn't hungry when 
    I called her in for dinner so she stayed outside playing. If it was 
    me, I would say: Get your butt in here now..no playing until you've
    eaten your dinner.   ;-) 
    
    So, its very hard for me to have any say in what goes on until the 
    time I do get home. I do call and check up on her everyday.. but still. 
    
    Think about it.. you're at work all day..then possibly after work there
    are errands that must be done..(or perhaps, like me, I like to work out 
    and go directly after work for about an hour) so thats like 10, 11, or 
    more hours that you don't see your child.   So, possibly there is an
    hour or 2 before bedtime to "catch up on what went on during the day"
    and of course there are the weekends.  
    
    But I just wish kids would just automatically KNOW and DO what they're 
    supposed to do!! Wishful thinking right!  Well, perhaps, this is just 
    another "stage". She"ll be 10 in November so maybe we"ll see a change 
    then! ;-)
    
    
    

    According to my mother, I was never like this, but my brother had this
    "bug" real bad.  He was about 9-10 years old.  My mom went through the
    same things you people are.  My mother said that the only thing was
    this:
    
    "OK, fine.  You don't have to take a shower if you don't want to, but I
    wouldn't plan on going anywhere this weekend because your feet and your
    armpits are going to stink so bad, noone will want to go out with you. 
    And you don't want to brush your teeth, fine.  I did the same thing
    when I was you're age, and look what happened!"  At that point my
    mother would remove her false teeth and show my brother.
    
    Isn't tormenting wonderful?!?!?  8*}
    
    

    I was relieved to find I'm not alone.  I thought I must be losing my
    mind when I'd have to CONTINUALLY tell 9-year old Jenn to take her
    dishes to the kitchen, pick up dirty socks, and keep her play areas
    picked up and feed the cats.  We don't have any regular chores for her
    (except cats), but weekly she will be asked to do certain jobs like
    unload the dishwasher or empty the dryer and fold the laundry.  When
    she FIRST tried all these things, it was a big treat for her and she
    couldn't do enough.  Now, she whines, moans and groans, and makes any
    excuse she can think of, some pretty feeble.  I asked her one day if
    she thought *I* enjoyed doing everything myself, and she replied to the
    effect that I was SUPPOSED to do it all because I was the mother!!!  So
    I asked what she would do when she became a mother, and she replied
    that she would have her husband do it all!  
    
    I know EXACTLY how .0 feels to be a broken record:  I say the same
    things over and over to Jenn and also sometimes to her father!! (His
    excuses aren't as cute, though!)
    
    Good luck--I have NO idea how to change this.

    Add another 10 year old to the list.  This is nothing new with our son
    it is the pattern of his life!!  We have to remind him to do almost
    everything.  I can begin to some improvement.  Like he usually
    remembers to brush his teeth, but there are still times.
    
    If I had a nickel (as my parents used to say, probably more like $5)
    for every discussion I've had with him on why the floor of his room is
    not supposed to be a dumping ground, I'd be really rich!
    
    It really is getting better.  He wants to be more independent and knows
    that he has to do stuff on his own in order for us to give him more
    trust. So we'll see . . .

    
    exactly! before it was great joy to be able to go to the corner market
    by herself to get a gallon of milk..now, the response I get is: Do 
    I have to?  One time I used the ol' guilt trip.. it worked but its not
    something to be used ALL the time! ;-) 
    
    For example, if she didn't "feel" like going to the store, I would 
    say, (VERY SARCASTICALLY), oh, don't you worry about it, after all
    I enjoy going straight to the store to get milk after 8 hours of work.
    I don't really need time to take my shoes off and check the mail
    anyway.   I guess the rabbit doesn't really need food either..so 
    you just go ahead and play with your friends and don't worry about a 
    thing. I"ll take care of everything.   This attitude will usually 
    produce co-operation but Like I said, I only did this one time to 
    see if it would work...I wouldn't want to have that attitude all the
    time! 
    
    Also, I picked up a book awhile back called: Your Nine year old. Can't 
    think of the authors name right now but he/she has a series of books
    beginning with "Your One year old" all the way through "your 10-14 
    year old" or something like that. These books can be found in any
    bookstore under "parenting".  I haven't hit the chapter yet on
    "cooperation" but when I do, I hope to share some ideas that will 
    if not cure the problem, at least help us understand WHY kids do 
    what they do!   
    
    
                  

Actually, there is something to the "tape recorder" concept.  IMO, the 
lectures do no good, in fact they cause the kid to tune you out.  What finally 
worked for me was to keep the instructions brief, and not to engage in 
"conversation" but rather to sound like a tape recorder, or perhaps more 
accurately, a broken record.

For example:

	Dad:	Gary.  Teeth.  Now.

	Gary:	In a few minutes:

	Dad:	Gary.  Teeth.  Now.

	Gary:	But I'm watching "Sportsdesk".

	Dad:	Gary.  Teeth.  Now.

	Gary:	But I'll DO IT.

	Dad:	Gary.  Teeth.  Now.

	Gary:	But . . . 

	Dad:	Gary.  Teeth.  Now.

	Gary:	OH ALL RIGHT!

P****s HIM off, but I remain calm.

Clay

Yes, they do grow out of it. My 3 (13,12,9) all are into it. When do they 
grow out of it? When they leave your home. Until then it's the way they 
keep us parents on the edge of insanity!!!

Sometimes I have to laugh at my own notes.

.2>(Not to gross you out, but guess what conclusion I draw when
.2>I fold the laundry and there's one pair of underwear for him and three or
.2>four for everyone else).

Saturday, I folded the laundry.  For mom, dad, and Lara, there were five pair 
of underwear.  For Gary, there were


twelve!

Now I'm wondering what conclusion to draw.

	- he's taken to putting clean underwear in his laundry basket.

		- to fool me or

		- to avoid having to put them away

	- he  found a stash of dirty underwear somewhere in his room
	
	- he's gotten religion, and now changes his underwear two or
	  three times a day.

Clay 

    Andrew (4) learn't to dress himself about a year ago. It wasn't until
    later in the day, that we found that he would often put on 3-4 pairs of
    underpants, and sometime 3 t-shirts. WHen we asked about it, it was
    just that he liked getting dressed.
    
    (So how come he is a wriggle when I try to dress him.... :-) )
    
    q
    

    My husband has wonderful teeth, thanks to a fastidious dentist.
    
    This dentist took my husband (as a boy) into his office and told
    him he could tell that Jay wasn't brushing his teeth, or at least
    was not doing a good job at it.  He had Jay sit in a chair, then
    scrapped off a little plaque, put it under a high-powered microscope,
    and let Jay look at it.  He spent about 20-30 minutes explaining to
    him what caused this to appear in his mouth, what it did to his
    teeth, what had to be done when decay occured, etc, etc, etc. This
    dentist had all kinds of pictures of tooth decay, models, etc. He
    didn't so much try to terrorize him as much as open his eyes to
    what the long-term lack of responsibility meant -- that he was
    making a choice today about what his future held.
    
    Talk about a religious experience!  Jay still remembers
    it as if it happened yesterday, saying that it made a big impact
    on him as a child.  His younger brother (by 18 months) got the
    same lecture, and has 0 fillings in his adult teeth.  Jay only
    wished he'd gotten the lecture as his bother's age so he could
    have spared a few of his 12-year molars.
    
    As far as other hygiene practices, they are similar.  However, 
    I think one would have to be careful that we don't turn our kids
    into obsessive-compulsive cleaners who wash their hands raw, brush
    grooves into their teeth, etc.
    
    I have a 2.5 year old whom I do battle with over brushing teeth.
    I persevere, because I was one of those kids who's parents didn't
    check constantly on teeth brushing.  On one visit to the dentist,
    I had 8 cavities (I was about 10 or 11 years old).  The dentist
    shamed me terribly (I was quite sensitive as a child) by asking,
    "What have you been brushing your teeth with?  A twig??!  I shaped
    up after that.
    
    Somehow having it come from someone other than your "Mom" or your
    "Dad" has more impact.  Maybe a friendly chat with your dentist
    and/or pediatrician can help on hygiene issues...

My dentist continually tried to shame me into brushing my teeth better when
motivation wasn't my problem.  I *was* brushing -- twice a day -- I just wasn't 
doing it very effectively.  All he'd say was "I'm sure you can do a better job 
than that",  and I would leave feeling bad.

When I moved and had to switch dentists, the hygienist (at my very first
appt) showed me how to brush and explained how and when to floss. I felt
a little foolish that I hadn't known how to properly care for my teeth for so
long, but happy with my new knowledge.

Ignorance *is* curable!

Teeth brushing at least has never been a problem for us.  The school has a 
hygenist that comes around with a kit.  It includes a picture of how to brush
correctly, a toothbrush, and some little red pills.  The children all brush 
thier teeth and then chew one of the tablets.  Wherever they missed plaque 
on their teeth it comes out bright red.

They get extra pills in the kit to take it home and try it out.  Neither boy
(11 and 13) has any cavities whereas I had lousy teeth.  

My son doesn't seem to care if he stinks though. :-)

ccb