Conference moira::parenting

    
    Are you concidered a "strict" parent??  The way you ask a question
    could make a difference.  For instance, asking "What have you been up
    to today?" may have a chance at an honest answer as opposed to "Where 
    were you?"  Also remember, there is a law that teenagers (12.5 is close
    enough) have to put something over on the parents as much as possible!!
    :^)
    
    Chris D.

       re: .0

	Maybe if you made him realize that the majority of the time
	you'd be more mad about his lying than what he may have done,
	might bring him around. For instance, if you find out he lied 
	about something, when punishing him tell him you would have
	been more lienient about the infraction than you are now being
	about his lying.

    When my (then) three year old went thru this normal stage, we dealt with 
    his punishment in two stages.  One for lying - usually an instant "reward"
    - immediate spank; and one for the "crime" he was covering up.  He was
    always told which punishment was for which infraction.  The lying was
    over in a few months and we haven't had a big problem since.  We always
    made the punihsmetn for lying harder to take than the other.  We always
    talked to him about his lying and how hard it was on us to trust him. 
    We had a few instances as he got older - but they were very rare.  I
    think what may have hit home is the time we told him we couldn't
    believe him because he has lied to us in the past about whatever.  He
    then realized the consequence of his actions.  
    
    -sandy
    

    I would say that I have this problem with Markus but for me, it isn't
    really a problem.  If I accuse him directly about something, he will
    almost certainly lie.  It doesn't matter how big or small the lie is. 
    If I or my husband accuses him of losing the remote control, or
    whatever, then he will certainly deny he ever saw it.  It is, in this
    case, nearly impossible to tell if he is lying or not and I know I'll
    never get his help to find whatever is missing or to get to the
    bottom of one of his misdeeds (and there are a lotof these!).
    
    So, I use PATIENCE, in big doses.  If it's a little thing that I think
    he might of misplaced, then I describe what I am looking for and ask
    him to help me find it.  If it is something that I suspect him of doing
    wrong or some trouble I believe he is in, then I approach him time
    after time until I am convinced he is telling the truth.  This can go
    on literally for days until I know he is truthful with me.  For his
    part, he knows by now that I will never give up until he tells me the
    truth and uderstands the consequences of his actions.  We usually
    decide on the "punishment" together.
    
    This involves a lot of perserverance.  I never punish him without proof
    or a confession.  It is so difficult to tell the difference between his
    truth and his falsehood that I prefer to let a few misdemeanors by than
    to punish him unjustly.
    
    And the main point to this is for him to understand what he has done
    and to become a better person, not to punish him for lying.  
    
    Good luck.  This is really hard to control, especially when they get
    around the age of 12 and are such *GOOD* liars!
    
    Cheryl

    In our home we have an established rule.  You WILL be punished for
    lying before you are punished for the crime!
    
    I will punish AJ, and make it clear to him his being punished for
    lying, then we deal with the crime separately.  Maybe for us it's the
    age, but I'd rather make him understand now, before he gets any older,
    that he can not get away with lying to anyone.
    
    Ususally after the punishment we ask him if he know why he has been
    punished, and he can almost always tell me it's because he lied to us
    (or any one else for that matter).
    
    Lately we have had a problem at school where he has done something,
    like pushing one of the kids, or throwing sand in the playground, and
    trying to blame another child.  Aparently the teacher isn't dealing
    with this, except from a discipline point of view.  We can easily tell
    if he's lying about it, and will punish him at home for lying.  Wrong?
    I really don't know.  This is something that has started happening over
    the last week or so, so we're still "testing the waters" on discipline
    methods for this one.  I'll keep you posted on what works for us.
    
    Lyn

    At our house we have ghost!  We must, 'cause sometimes I'll ask the
    kids who did something, and none of the did!  So, we must have ghost
    lurking in the shadows.  This ghost had first shown up when the kids
    were very little, and now, with the oldest 18, that ghost is still
    here!!!   :^)
    
    Chris D.

Note 184.1                     problem with lying                         
HYEND::C_DENOPOULOS "WHO.....MADE.....YOU!!!"        
    
>    Are you concidered a "strict" parent??  The way you ask a question
>    could make a difference.  For instance, asking "What have you been up
>    to today?" may have a chance at an honest answer as opposed to "Where 
>    were you?"  Also remember, there is a law that teenagers (12.5 is close
>    enough) have to put something over on the parents as much as possible!!

Yes, I guess both my wife and I could be considered strict.  We've also 
tried framing the questions to him as you suggest.  Problem is that the kid 
is crafty, evasive and manipulative.

Note 184.2                  
SSGV01::ANDERSEN "She smiles with her eyes."          
                              -< Just a thought. >-


>	Maybe if you made him realize that the majority of the time
>	you'd be more mad about his lying than what he may have done,
>	might bring him around. For instance, if you find out he lied 
>	about something, when punishing him tell him you would have
>	been more lienient about the infraction than you are now being
>	about his lying.

Yep, we've done that too but with minimal success.

    
Note 184.4                     problem with lying                         
WADD::BETTELS "Cheryl, Eur. Ext. Res. Prg., DTN 821" 
                            -< My 11 year old, too >-

>    I would say that I have this problem with Markus but for me, it isn't
>    really a problem.  If I accuse him directly about something, he will
>    almost certainly lie.  It doesn't matter how big or small the lie is. 
>    If I or my husband accuses him of losing the remote control, or
>    whatever, then he will certainly deny he ever saw it.  It is, in this
>    case, nearly impossible to tell if he is lying or not and I know I'll
>    never get his help to find whatever is missing or to get to the
>    bottom of one of his misdeeds (and there are a lotof these!).

I've stopped worrying about the small stuff like loss of the remote etc.  
I'm trying to address his lying to cover his own dishonesty and deceit.  
He'll take something that's not his and swear he didn't do it until he 
knows he's been caught red-handed.
    
    
>    This involves a lot of perserverance.  I never punish him without proof
>    or a confession.  It is so difficult to tell the difference between his
>    truth and his falsehood that I prefer to let a few misdemeanors by than
>    to punish him unjustly.

We also are trying to not jump to conclusions about his guilt in our 
unfolding saga.  I'm finding it more and more difficult to give him the 
benefit of the doubt, though.
    

Thank you all for your suggestions.  We're seeking counselling on this 
issue because I'm afraid that one of these days I'm gonna lose control and 
do something he'll deserve but I'll regret.



				Ron

    I get the feeling this is going to be something he's just going to have
    to grow out of, but that doesn't mean forget about it either.  Did you
    concider a counceler?  Many public schools have one.  If they can't
    handle it, they can recommend a professional specializing in teens.
    
    Chris D.

       <<< Note 184.8 by HYEND::C_DENOPOULOS "WHO.....MADE.....YOU!!!" >>>

>    I get the feeling this is going to be something he's just going to have
>    to grow out of, but that doesn't mean forget about it either.  Did you
>    concider a counceler?  Many public schools have one.  If they can't
>    handle it, they can recommend a professional specializing in teens.
    
I'm waiting for a call back from the counselling people at my health care 
provider.  I'll enter any progress we make as this situation progresses.

Ron

The only thing I can think of is to somehow impress upon him how liars are viewed
by other people, not just parents.  If you haven't sat him down and explained
how his friends won't trust him, you will not be able to give him more 
priviledges as he gets older because he's not able to tell the truth now and you
won't be able to trust him, etc. Don't forget how it takes a long time to repair
the trust he's destroying by lying.  Try using examples of how other people
lying to him affects *him*.  Perhaps he just doesn't clearly understand
the long-term effects of lying.

If you can convey this like you're trying to help *him* with *his* problem, it 
might work.

Would that be expecting too much of an 11 year old?  I don't know, my kid is much 
younger.  It might be worth a shot.

Pat

    The original note was some time ago, but I recall reading a suggestion
    in a book I like ("Liberated Parents, Liberated Children" by Adele
    Faber and Elaine Mazlish) to form a picture in your mind of how you
    would like the child to act, and then to treat the child as if he or
    she is like that picture in your mind.
    
    They explain it better than I do.
    
    Beryl

    Good for you seeking counceling!  It takes a lot to be able to see the
    bigger issue, recognise its overall impact, and get help.  You should
    feel good about yourself(s) about that...
    
    About the lying and teenagers, I don't know (yet!), but with Nathan who
    is three, I try and ask open ended questions, (what happened to make
    your sister cry so?) which put him in my camp, and when it feels like a
    situation he thought about lying, but decidec not to, I thank him very
    clearly for telling the truth.  He likes to be thanked for things, and
    it makes him more polite, at least so far!
    
    Adrienne 

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.  The noter's pseudonym for this string will be "Afraid
of DSS."

    Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

*****************************************************************

My 6.5 year old son is turning into what seems to be an habitual liar.  I 
am at a complete loss as to how to handle this.  It seems to be getting 
more serious with each day.

Over the weekend we stopped by my inlaws for a brief visit.  While there we 
asked them if they would mind watching him for an hour while we ran over to 
the wholesale club for a couple things.  When we got back my inlaws ran up 
one side of us and down the other about how come we hadn't fed him lunch, 
and why had we left him "STARVING"!!

We had left the house at 11:30, he had had breakfast plus a coule snacks, 
and had a milk based drink in the car on the ride down.  Aparently while we 
were out he approached my father inlaw and asked him for a piece of bread, 
which by the way was fresh and home made.  There was also a fresh fruit pie 
in the oven which would make ayone hungry.  Somewhere in the conversation 
he told my fatherinlaw he hadn't had lunch.  OK so we hadn't set him down, 
handed him a sandwich and drink and formally called it "lunch" but he had 
certainly had enough that he wasn't starving.  I now have a situation where 
my wonderful inlaw are not speaking to us.  My husband sort of just grabbed 
the kid and left without saying anything to defend  the situation.  I 
decided not to say anything rather than get stuck in the middle of it all.
I love my inlaws, and just hate this kind of conflict going on, and my son 
looks forward to stopping by to see grammie and grampie a couple times a 
week.  We were also going to ask them to watch him next Saturday while we 
went to a 50th anniversary, now I don't even know if we can both go, since 
I am without a sitter.  This is tearing me apart.

Later in the day he was in the shower, I noticed three bruises on his rear 
end.  Granted he is clumsy and falls like any other boy will, but I asked 
if he remembered how they happened.  His reply really bothered me, he said 
they happened when I hit him!  I didn't hit him, OK maybe the occational 
smack on the butt, but certainly not enough to cause a bruise.  They 
clearly are there from falling or hard playing.

Both of these things are probably enough to cause the DSS to take him away  
and I am quite frankly SCARED TO DEATH!  I have tried talking to him to 
make him realize that these kind of lies can cause him to be taken out of 
our home and mom and dad put into jail, he seems to understand this.  I am 
afraid he will say something like thiis at the daycare, and the next thing  
will be me facing a plice officer explaining my way out of this.

What do I do next??

      "Afraid of DSS"

    Reading your note I remembered a same thing that happened about 20
    years ago.We had next door neigbours who had a 3 years old son (he's
    now 23 and we are like brother and sister).Anyways the 2 doors were
    usually open so we all would go in and out of the 2 flats.One day
    Giorah came into my mom's kitchen where my brother was having lunch.He
    asked my mom if he could also have some since he was starving.Ofcourse
    she gave him,and the next day-just the same.After 4,5 days of feeding
    Giorah,my mom had a talk with HIS mom.It turned out that before coming
    to our kitchen he had a FULL lunch.But the point was a-to eat lunch
    with my brother whom he "worshiped" and b-eating "different" stuff.
    Why did I even tell you that? BECAUSE - your son is NOT a lier,at least
    not at this hunger thing.You said yourself-fruit pie,fresh home made 
    bread, he was probably thinking that if he tell grandma he'd already
    had something to eat-he won't get the yummy stuff. I do not therefor
    understand your inlaw's anger.But DSS getting involved???? what for???
    About the "spanks on his butt",I probably belong to the minority who
    think that an occasional spank on the butt is no big deal,and I think
    your kid did NOT lie.He remembers spanks as "bad things" much more than
    a fall during a game.So for him-a bruise=hurt=mom's spank,rather than
    any falls.I am NOT a prof. but I was also a kid.
    So if this is what his lies are about-talk to him,try to make him
    understand that telling the truth is by far the best thing to do,but
    please don't use the "they'll take you away" threat.I olny heard it
    once and I couldn't sleep for a week.
    R/

    I think Rivka has a point about the lunch - why were the folks so
    upset with you? 
    Take each situation calmly and try to think of what his motivations are
    for saying what he does. Discuss these motivations with him and 
    instill in him the importance of being clear. In some ways it can
    also be the way adults interpret answers he gives. He was truthful
    when he said he had not had lunch. The adult should have said "And what
    DID you eat today?" 
    Good luck,
    
    Monica

My 5 year old son tried to argue with me for 5 minutes the other day on
whether or not he had eaten dinner.  He kept telling me that he hadn't had
dinner yet, and upon questioning him I learned that he was certain that the
meal he had *just* eaten was lunch (at 5:00 or 6:00 PM).  I finally just
dropped the argument (while he kept it going, though I wasn't responding at
all). He was *determined* that he had not just eaten dinner (I wondered if I
had called it supper or something). 

      Carol

    Many times our weekend lunches are catch-as-catch can affairs ...
    with everybody eating at different times, so our 5 year old daughter
    (and even our 8 year old occasionally) will come up to us about
    2pm and demand lunch ... 
    
    "But you had a cheese toastie about 12 o'clock so you've already
    had lunch" ...
    
    "Oh Yeah! ... I forgot ... Can I have a snack?"
    
    So, there is lying and then there is confusion of the facts.  From
    your description it is confusion of facts.  Remember too that kids
    learn very quickly to answer with a response that gets a reaction
    as opposed to necessarily the WHOLE truth.  They often don't
    realize the implications of some of the things they say.
    
    Stuart

    I also agree that a child's perspective is different.  My son has in
    fact eaten a full meal and twenty minutes later say that he thought it
    was just a snack.  I don't understand why the in-laws made such a big
    deal out of it.  
    
    As for the bruises ... he probably forgot where he got them (Shoot, I
    know I don't know where I get some of the bruises on my body) and the
    last thing that he remembers happening to that area of his body was the
    spanking.
    
    I wouldn't make a big deal out of this.  The child is acting like any
    other child his age.  As for DSS, I know there has been a lot of bad
    publicity on them taking children out of the home for no apparent
    reason.  I, for one, will continue to do what I feel is best for my
    child.  No one taught me how to be a parent and I can only do the best
    I can.  I will not let the remote DSS threat dictate how I raise my
    child.
     

    Just a side note:  When I ask my two year old what he wants for 
    lunch, he'll usually reply, "Supper."  Or when I ask him what he
    wants for breakfast, he'll reply "Lunch."  They really don't 
    understand the idea of meals, timing, etc.

    I agree with all the replies here.  My 5 year old did the
    same thing.  He will ask for dinner, 20 mintues after we
    ate.  And he will insist what he just had is not dinner
    but snack.  
    
    Wendy

<Over the weekend we stopped by my inlaws for a brief visit.  While there we 
<asked them if they would mind watching him for an hour while we ran over to 
<the wholesale club for a couple things.  When we got back my inlaws ran up 
<one side of us and down the other about how come we hadn't fed him lunch, 
<and why had we left him "STARVING"!!

I have always assumed that the Constitution specifically spelled out
Grandparents rights to feed their grandchildren whenever they want,
{in our case almost anything they want} and to emphatically announce
that we as parents were *DEPRIVING* THEIR grandkids of good healthy
food.#  Good healthy food being defined as the stuff grams and gramps
provide.  My grandmother can get my kids to eat *SAUERKRAUT*!!!  
Feeding the grandkids is the priority of any visit.  My kids head 
right for the kitchen whenever we visit any of the grandparents, no
matter what they ate before and enroute.

Can you explain the above law to your wonderful inlaw?  Have them
contact me with any questions.


Rochelle


# This could possibly be an international sort of {enter deity here}given
  right of grandparents.  It appears to cross all ethnicities that I've 
  encountered.

    
    I too agree that he was probably confused, not LYING about lunch.
    A lot of times my boys will argue (usually at bedtime), that they
    didn't have ANY supper, and that they're hungry.  When I remind them of
    the supper they had, they'll insist it was lunch - or yesterday - or 
    something.  They just forget.  It does seem odd that your in-laws got
    that upset.  Geez - didn't they ever skip a meal??
    
    As for the bruises - it's all been said.  He remembers what happened
    that hurt.  Chris has a red dot on the palm of his hand that's been
    there for YEARS.  It's very tiny, and looks about the size of a dot you
    might get from getting a shot.  Know what he tells EVERYONE??  That's
    where he got his shot.  Hey, to leave a mark THIS long, it musta hurt,
    and what hurts more than that??  Ask him about it - he can even tell
    you WHEN it was, and who gave it to him.  Lying?  Nah - I think he's
    just confused and needs to be able to explain it ....
    
    Now if he's standing there with a piece of a broken glass in his hand,
    and he tells you HE didn't broke the glass, the fish did, then I'd say
    you might have a problem.

<    Now if he's standing there with a piece of a broken glass in his hand,
<    and he tells you HE didn't broke the glass, the fish did, then I'd say
<    you might have a problem.

'Course, if the fish is an Oscar, even that might be true.  :-)

     Carol

    I guess it's time to 'fess up and say it my my charmin'child in the
    Anon note.  It seemed to be much scarier and more serious initially,
    but thanks to all of you it seems to have been put in a better light.
    
    Now as for the prank of the week, it's one of those things that makes a
    parent's blood boil, and has left me wondering where I've gone wrong,
    or is this just a phase and he will grow out of SOOON!
    
    Yesterday we came home and my husband went to the cellar for a can of
    soda.  We recently bought a small refrigerator to keep soda and other
    misc. things in our family room.  When he opened the fridge he
    discovered a can of soda had frozen and exploded everywhere!  The
    reason is that "I dunno" came to visit again, and turned up the fridge
    to MAX!  Well I wanted to explode, his father wanted to let him have
    it, and it turned out we decided on a new, but probably temporary, rule
    which is he is NOT to go to the cellar under any condition unless a
    grownup is with him.  The way the cellar is set up he can access the
    outside door and other half (unfinished side) of the cellar without
    going into the family room, which means he can still go out and come in
    from the pool without going to the family room.
    
    Last night, quite late around 9 my husband was cleaning up the mess fro
    the Coke can, and looked around the corner to discover a puddle coming
    from the big upright deep freezer.  Initially we both were in a panic
    when we discovered quite a bit of the meat and other things were
    totally defrosted, and we thought it had failed.  We then discovered
    the problem, "I dunno" had visited again and SHUT IT OFF!  
    
    I guess my handling was poor but I was completely enraged, I woke the
    kid up, and asked him to come to the cellar, where his dad was working
    very hard to contain the mess created, and asked for an explaination.
    Yes I was upset, no I did not handle it well, I guess in my generation
    I'd have had an extremely warm bottom for doing such a prank, but he
    just kept saying he didn't do it.
    
    He had to have done it, neither one of us did it (the adults) and there
    is no one else in the house.  He has tried to blame the cats, this
    morning he told me a story of how the little fridge and the big freezer
    got together, had a talk and one decided to turn up to the MAX while
    the other decided to turn itself off.  
    
    I don't know how to handle this, it seems so out of character for him. 
    I don't know what to do about the latest phase of mis behavior.
    
    I'm desperate!!
    Lyn

                      <<< Note 184.24 by SAMDHI::TRIPP >>>
                           -< Pranks and lying HELP >-

Lyn - I can understand how angry you must have been.  But try to put in 
perspective that your son has no idea of the consequences of what he did.
When you reacted the way you did - his reaction was to try to distance
himself from your anger.  When you have cooled down enough to talk
rationally to him :*) try to explain why you were so angry and what
the actions meant to you without blaming him.  He knows he did it and
what he is doing may not be lying to him.  He may have actually envisioned
a conversation between the two freezers!

He needs constant re-enforcement that his lying is more important to you
than the fact that he made a mistake.  The punishment for the lying needs
to be more emphatic than the punishment for the "crime".  And he must know
that that is why he is being punished.  Eventually, he will learn that
doing something wrong will get him punished, but lying about it will
bring much harsher action.

This too shall pass . . .

   Lyn,

   I can understand exactly how you feel - Matt's going to be 9 years old
   in 3 months and we've been going thru these types of things for the last
   year or so........

   The latest one in our house was the muffins - my housemate decided to 
   pick up donuts/muffins on the way home from church while I was home,
   unbeknownst to her, BAKING muffins - when she came in, we decided to
   have the donuts for breakfast, save the muffins for during the week - 
   Matt must have asked 2 or 3 times about having the muffins for breakfast,
   always getting the SAME answer..........later that day, after lunch, I
   went out to the kitchen to do something, and there were the muffins, with
   this little piece picked out of this one, another out of that one, to
   the point that MOST of the muffins had a piece taken.......who did it ???
   Well, THE CATS of course - NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!  After much discussion,
   loss of my cool and then rediscussion, the truth finally came out - Matt
   was hungry, felt that if he had asked, he would have been told NO again
   and didn't want to hear it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

   I've stressed to Matt over and over about telling the truth and that
   LYING IS ONE THING I WILL NOT TOLERATE - when he is caught lying, then
   there's a double punishment - one reasonable for whatever the wrong was
   and a more severe one for lying !!!!!!!!!  While, as I said, we're still
   dealing with the problem, we're finding it occurs less and less and
   Matt's finally starting to get the message.

   Hang in there !!!!!!!!!
   Debbi

    I guess what is happening here, among other things is I just can't
    understand WHY THE FREEZER?  I mean this whole thing just caught us
    both so off guard.  
    
    I guess in his defense is the freezer probably had been off a couple
    days.  I mean things were absolutely LIMP they were sooo defrosted. 
    (anyone want to come by for a major bar B Q tonite, I've got tons of
    things to cook or loose!)  I guess one of us should have notice the
    freeezer was shut off somewhere in the process of daily in and outs of
    the freezer, but didn't, yes it's under the cellar stairs and not all
    that well lit.  But do I have to live in a CYA mode all my life, I feel
    at times like I live with DENNIS THE MENNACE!  What in the world is
    next!
    
    I can't understand what is causing this behavior.  It's like he's
    protesting about the world in general.  I am tempted to contact the
    psycologist who did his ADHD evaluation and ask her to see him on a
    STAT basis.  I am thinking this is the tip of an iceberg.  My husband
    on the other hand says I am the one overreacting, and "blowing this
    whole thing out of hand"  AM I???
    
    When I hauled him out of bed, to the protests of my husband last night,
    I showed him the completely defrosted meat, and explained the
    implications of his behavior, maybe the meat costs money approach
    wasn't quite the right one, but I guess I wasn't, am not yet seeing
    this whole thing quite as clearly as I need to.
    
    This morning he got up with what seems to be a stomach thing, "going"
    from both ends, part of the mommmy guilt says it's his nerves, part of
    me wants to say it's a bug that several others in the school have had
    yesterday and today (as Ifound out when I called to say he wasn't
    coming in today).
    
    I need help sorting through this whole thing!  I'm ususally pretty
    objective and not irrational.
    
    Lyn

    Lynn,
    
    Honest, this too shall pass.  
    
    My nephew was the original dennis the menace type kid, who couldn't
    pass any electrical switch, or anything that was assembled without
    changing the setting or "adjusting" the assembly.  
    
    About all you can do at this point is keep a very close eye on him,
    explain that these actions have consequences and get him his own stuff
    to take apart and put together, and maybe some battery powered stuff to
    play with, with your supervision of course.  
    
    Meg 

    Lynn, you may want to ask the Cooking conference for ideas
    to salvage whats in the freezer.
    As for AJ;
    good luck!
    
    Monica

    
    Lyn,
    
    Wow!!  Sorry to hear about his latest actions .... I guess this is
    where I personally would draw the line between confusion and outright
    lying.  At 6.5, he KNOWS he's not telling the truth.  He is old enough
    to have reasoned that a)he did something bad  b)if he admits it, he'll
    get in trouble  and c)if he denies it, you have no "proof", so he can't
    be blamed!  Easy enough - lie and they'll never know!  It's been my
    experience that they don't QUITE have the reasoning yet to know what
    you can and cannot figure out.
    
    What I've done, when I know one of my boys is trying to get away with
    something by lying to me, is handle this one of two ways.
    
    a) If I know before I even speak to them that they're guilty, and I'm
    so upset that I don't even want to DEAL with the possibility of them
    being dishonest, I will confront them directly, leaving them NO room
    for denial.  "AJ, I KNOW that you shut off the freezer, and now you've
    ruined ALL this meat - WHY did you do it??!"  If he tries to deny it,
    don't let him even try, or sometimes I'll add on to the end "and I KNOW
    you did it, so don't make it worse by trying to lie about it!"  This
    way we can just get on with dealing with the issue at hand, and I don't
    have to deal with the additional stress of being lied to.  PLUS, I
    think it helps alleviate a bit of the temptation for them to lie in the
    first place.  They KNOW they've been caught.  I honestly believe that
    they feel better if they can be honest about it.  Punished?   Yup. 
    Guilt about lying or getting caught?  Nope.
    
    My second approach, if I'm not sure who's guilty (since there's 2 of
    them!), is to question them.  It's usually pretty easy to tell who's
    telling the truth and who's not.  They get up to about the 3rd chance
    to "revert" their story.  "But mom, the freezers were talking to each
    other - I HEARD them!"  "I'm going to ask you again, and I want the
    TRUTH!!  If you lie to me, you're only going to make it a LOT worse on
    yourself - WHY did you shut off the freezer?"  My boys know that
    they're going to get punished in some form, one way or the other, and
    having been caught in the midst of a lie a few times, they are VERY
    well aware that the punishment for lying is SEVERE, as opposed to the
    punishment for any other "crime".  
    
    If I can't figure out who did it, and it's serious enough, they may
    both lose some privilege.  The pressure between the two of them is
    usually enough to make one of them fess up, or to cause the other to
    supply more detail (ie rat on his brother).
    
    I have been fortunate so far that I've Always been able to find the
    truth out, so that at least I'll know that I was lied to.  And I just
    keep reminding them that I WILL find out what happened.  A few times
    they've "gotten away" with just a stern conversation, when they have
    chosen to tell the truth - and they are well aware that lying costs
    them BIG TIME.  
    
    As a child, I used to lie CONSTANTLY.  ALL the time, to ANYONE, just
    because I could.  I almost always got away with it.  Actually, it got
    to the point that I'd make up extravagant stories, or lie about events
    so that I didn't even remember what I had told different people.  Why?
    Because I could get away with it.  And when I got caught, there was
    nothing much done about it.  I was never ever grounded, and can never
    recall anything like a "time out" or loss of privs or anything like
    that.  We never got an allowance, so there wasn't money to take away.
    Worst case, we'd get smacked around, but that happened a lot anyway, so
    what's the big difference???
    
    The first time I caught my kids lying and they REFUSED to fess up till
    after about an hour of questioning (they were lying about swearing -
    geez!) I asked each of them to tell me 5 favorite things of theirs to
    play with or do.  They told me, and they each lost 3 of them (I picked
    which 3) for a week.  THAT sunk in hard and fast.  
    
    I guess knowing how MUCH I lied, and remembering that even when I
    WANTED to be honest, I somehow never could, has made me a lot more
    sensitive to the whole subject.  I think it's a perfectly NORMAL part
    of being alive - come on, the last time you got pulled over, didn't you
    tell the officer a little fib to hopefully lessen your punishment?  The
    last time you got caught being late to work or leaving early, did you
    maybe stretch the truth a bit??  Everyone does it to help ease the
    pain.  The difference is that we understand the consequences of what we
    say - the kids don't always.  And we understand that it's wrong.  This
    is what we need to teach them.
    
    As for "overreacting" .... I don't think I'd say you overreacted!  He
    gets caught turning UP the fridge, realizes that it's wrong, sees how
    upset you are, KNOWS that he messed with the freezer, and doesn't
    bother to say anything???  You've lost potentially hundreds of dollars
    worth of food, and he stands there and tells you two appliances had a
    conversation??!  I think I'd be pretty upset!  He's 6.5 - not three!
    He understands enough about cause and effect to know that if he admits
    it, he's in trouble - I would be expecting that to apply to other
    things as well.
    
    As for his stomach bug - even if it IS nerves, he really brought this
    on himself, and you shouldn't feel guilty about that.  It may be worth
    having a conversation about if you think it is from nerves, and explain
    how all of this relates back to the fact that he lied about something
    that he did.  If he'd have just told the truth, he may still have
    gotten in trouble, but not NEARLY as much trouble, and he'd feel a lot
    better too - and so would you.
    
    The Boy Who Cried Wolf might be a good book to pick up - had a MAJOR
    impact on Jason, and he hardly EVER even tries to cover up anything any
    more.  
    
    For the food - I've cooked previously-frozen turkeys, and then refrozen
    the cooked meat, and it tasted fine when thawed.  Beef you may be able
    to create "stew" with, minus the veggies, and re-freeze it.  If you're
    just going to end up tossing it, you may as well try re-freezing it -
    there's nothing left to lose at that point.
    
    Try to take it easy - but I wouldn't take it so easy on him.  This was
    the same as "the fish broke the glass" in my eyes, and it's something
    you should try to stop before it gets out of hand.  Keeping him away
    from the fridge/freezer does not really address the "crime".  The crime
    is his dishonesty, and that has caused a breach in trust in the
    relationship.  Keeping him out of that part of the basement doesn't
    stress that.  Besides, does he particularly care if he can go in there
    or not?  A more drastic approach to the punishment aspect might be
    something like "Well, if you're going to act like a younger kid, you're
    going to be treated like one" and take away some priv that is more
    associated with how old/responsible/trustworthy he is.  Riding his bike
    alone, using the phone or whatever he's recently achieved.  I prefer a
    general loss of "something they LOVE!" so that they are constantly
    reminded, during the length of the punishment, that if they behave in
    certain ways, it will have a definite negative affect on something that
    they enjoy.  If he can't go downstairs, it may only matter to him a few
    hours a night.  If he can't color or play with his favorite toy/game,
    it will cause him to think about it more often, and the punishment will
    be felt more strongly/frequently.  Then by the end of those few days or
    week, he should have a better idea of cause/effect.
    
    GOOD LUCK!!  This is never an easy one - just try to remember that
    whatever he can get away with now, is the beginning of the ground rules
    for the rest of his life - it's up to you and your husband to set his
    limits now unless you want to be fighting this battle "forever".
    
    

    
    Hmm... this seems to hit a few hot buttons... mine included.
    
    I have two very strong, very clear memories around lying when I was a
    child.
    
    The first was from around 4-5.5 years. I had somehow let the air out of
    a football, and at first, lied about doing it.  I don't remember
    clearly how I was 'caught', but I do remember my father getting down to
    my level and telling very solemnly that "letting the air out wasn't so
    bad, but lying about it was bad.. very bad, and did I understand that
    lying made the situation worse?"   I remember it was *not* a highly
    emotional scene, except that I felt *very* bad about dissappointing my
    father, and many times later, when given the opportunity to lie, I
    recalled that moment.
    
    Which is not to say that I never lied - but I did feel bad about it.
    The point I wanted to make, is you don't have to get really mad about
    it, and usually it's counterproductive.
    
    
    
    The second memory was when I was older and my parents and I were having
    an argument about something - the subject isn't relevant - what they
    SAID, though, was that they "KNEW I was lying, don't bother to deny it" 
    I remember thinking that irrespective of whethe I *was* lying or not,
    it made me so mad to have them not trust me - to assume I was in the
    wrong..... So I would clearly not advise taking a stance of "I know
    you're wrong".  I believe that kids live up to expectations - negative
    AND positive, and it's in the parents' interest to "take the high
    ground", so to speak.... and yes, to establish there *are* ramifications
    when the child errs. 
    
    
    This isn't easy - bestof luck
    Jamd

    I agree with previous note about being accused (whether is true or
    not).  I remember being accused of lying about an action when I was a
    kid and I'll remember it always.  That changed my relationship with the
    accusor forever!!   Please be careful!
    
    -sandy
    

    I VERY clearly remember being at day camp when I was about 6.  Some kid
    peed on the bathroom floor.  The group decided that I had done it, I
    hadn't.  I never figured out who had but the person never stepped
    forward and I wound up taking the rap for something I hadn't done.
    
    That individual lied by keeping his/her mouth shut and letting someone
    else take the blame.
    
    Jeff

    Yes, the "I know you're lying" thing is dangerous: I still remember
    a cellar window I did not break, but my parents claimed I did and
    was lying about.
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    
    Its been a long time since this note was active.  But we are having a 
    real hard time with our 5.5 year old lying.  I am desperately hopeing
    to hear any suggestions that may have worked in your household.
    
    
    What do you do when you give them the chance to tell the truth after 
    the have lied.  They then tell the truth, with much proding that they
    will be in less trouble if the the truth.  Do you give a punishment for
    the crime, and thank them for FINALLY telling the truth?
    
    I am at my witts end about this.  She lies about EVERYTHING, and thinks
    its a game or joke.  She is constanlty telling her pre-school teacher
    things that are just not true.  Fortunatley for us, the school just
    started with special ed teacher, and she picked up on the fact that our
    daughter was not telling the truth.  I believe her regular teacher
    really believed that these things were true.  
    
    Half of her lies aren't even to get out of trouble.  She just seems to
    enjoy not stating the truth.  One example, was a friend called the
    other day, my daughter answered the phone, the friend asked if I was
    home.  My daughters response, while I was standing right next to her,
    was that I was not there.  My friend, knowing the problems we have been
    having, asked her again, and asked her to tell the truth.  She
    continued to say I was not there.  WHY!!!!!  I don't understand - what
    does she have to gain by this.
    
    She is constantly telling us that her younger sister hit herself in the
    head, arm, leg, whatever with whatever toy.  Now why would the baby hit
    herself sooo hard that she gets a bump, bruise, red welt???  I give her
    several chances to tell the truth and she just won't.  She then gets
    double punishments - but that doesn't seem to matter to her.  She just
    walks away smiling.
    
    Sorry this is so long, but I am extremly fustrated and just do not know
    what to do.  I have put a call into the counselor that did a
    preliminary ADHD evaluation on her for advice.  But I guess I was hoping 
    to hear from others, that maybe I wasn't the only one facing this.  
    Sometimes I feel I am too hard on her, but I cannot allow this type of 
    behavior, it looks bad on her, and us.  
    
    I fear for her the day something bad does happen, and she didn't do it -- 
    NO ONE is going to believe her!
    
    
    	HELP
    	Robin
                        

    I always make the consequence for telling untruths harder than for the
    real action to reenforce the fact that lying is one of the worst things
    that you can do.  It slowly does get the point across.
    
    meg

    Our daughter went through this at about the same age.  It was
    all just a big control trick...and after a while she gave it up.
    Your daughter's clearly sharp and can get a rise out of you
    by these actions.  dont completely ignore it, but dont react
    to it at all...just tell her that you know she's not being truthful
    and remove something she likes...having friends over, going to some
    special place, TV, or some special thing.  But calmly and with
    no big reaction.  Kids will do whatever it takes to get
    a big reaction from you.  Make sure you reserve it for something you
    want them to be doing, not something you dont.
    bob

    I remember Jason going through this same behavior at about the same
    age.  Although when confronted directly (Are you lying to me?!) he
    would fess up.
    
    I learned two reasons for his offenses; 
    
    The biggest thing was that he saw no consequences.  Sure, he'd be
    punished in some way, but it by no means made it worth STOPPING the
    excitement he could get out of other people, by lying.  There was never
    anything "bad" - that in his eyes was that bad - that came out of it.
    Here's the kicker - the thing that most seemed to cure him, was the
    story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" ... or Peter and the Wolf, or whatever
    the name of it was.  If you don't know the story .... it's about a boy
    who's job it is is to guard a flock of sheep and save them from the
    wolves.  But he was alone on a mountainside, and he'd get bored, so
    when he got bored, he'd yell "WOLF!!" and all the townsfolk would come
    to save his sheep.  Of course there was no wolf.  He did the same thing
    a few times, but by the 3rd/4th time, there really *WAS* a wolf, but NO
    ONE came to help him, because he had lied about it so many times
    before, and the wolf ate all the sheep.  
    
    I believe when I told Jason the story (from memory), I also added in
    that the wolf chased the boy, and almost ate the boy too.  We needed
    something with MAJOR impact!!  It *REALLY* hit him, and his lying
    behavior ceased almost immediately.  We discussed how this might apply
    to him ... reasons that him or others might be hurt because of his
    dishonesty.  Things that no one would believe from him, and how he
    would ALWAYS get blamed for everything, if he continued, because he lies
    all the time.  These things seemed to sink in a little more after the
    story bit.
    
    The other part of his problem was that he was just looking for
    attention.  Some way for a "kid" to get a charge out of an "adult". 
    Maybe you can point out more positive ways that she can get attention?
    
    The hardest part of all of this is when she does decide to stop lying,
    is for you to be able to stop being suspicious.  I remember when I was
    a kid, I used to lie all the time.  Then we had a big discussion about
    it all, and I really did stop.  But my mother/family never stopped
    being suspicious, and even though I was being honest, I was still
    constantly accused of lying.  Sooooo I figured "what the hell", and
    went back to lying.  And that all went on for years and years.  People
    will mold themselves to the labels put on them.  
    
    Good Luck!!  I'm not sure who wrote that book - it's one of those
    "Aesop's Fables" type stories - any library should know it in a
    heartbeat.  Though personally, I preferred the home-edited version.
    
    -Patty

    Well, my problem is actually two-fold but this looks like a good place
    to put it!
    
    My oldest son, Matthew, is 6 1/2 and in Kindergarten this year. He
    seems to get along well with other kids and is just now starting to ask
    other children over to play and to go over to other children's homes to
    play.  There is one little boy, Sean, whom he has had over once and to
    who's house he went once.  They seemed to get along pretty well when
    Sean was at our house - only a couple of disagreements. Sean has called
    a few times since then asking Matthew to come over to play. One time,
    we weren't home and Sean left a message.  Matthew didn't want to call
    him back. The next time Sean called, Matthew answered the phone and
    talked to him. I only heard, of course, Matt's side of the conversation
    but he basically flat out LIED to Sean.  I imagine Sean was asking him
    to cover over to play and what I heard Matthew say was "I have to go to
    my grandma's house tomorrow" and then "No, I'll be there 4 days".
    Matthew has told me he doesn't like to play with Sean although the
    reasons are not clear.  Should I stay out of it and just let him and
    Sean work it out??  Should I talk to Sean's Mom about it? I'd like to
    be able to help Matthew understand why it is he doesn't want to play
    with Sean - maybe it's something we can all work out together - or
    maybe it's best if I just mind my own business???  I do want Matthew to
    be able to choose for himself who he wants as friends.  However, that
    aside, my main concern is what to do aout the lieing?? Normally, Matt
    is a very honest kid although here recently he has tried a few times to
    be what I would call less than honest (saying he's brushed his teeth,
    when, in fact, he hasn't for example).  We've talked about how wrong it
    is to lie, and I think he understands that, but this is a little bit
    different!   I certainly don't want to encourage lying for any reason, 
    of course, but on the other hand we as adults tell this sort of "white 
    lie" all the time in order to spare someone's feelings!  I'm sure Matthew 
    has probably witnessed me doing this at some point in time.  He didn't 
    want to tell Sean the truth - that he doesn't like to play with him - 
    because he doesn't want to make Sean feel bad.  And yet, lying is not a 
    good idea either!!   I'm really not sure what to do! I know this is only 
    the beginning, as he and his schoolmates begin to form friendships and
    decide who they like to play with and who they don't. Looking for
    suggestions on how to handle this. Thanks! Lila

    
    This note reminds me of my husbands cooking. I know that doesn't sound
    right, but let me explain.  My husband cooks quite often. He likes to
    experiment and usually his meals are very delicious.  But one time he
    made this oriental chicken that was horrible.  He asked all of us what
    we thought and not to hurt his feelings we said it was ok.  I really
    love his cooking and didn't want him to stop.  But because I lied, he
    made it again and again and again. UGH! Finally I had to tell him that
    I really didn't like this recipe and he was hurt MORE because I led him
    to believe that it was really good.  For a while, he hesitated to ask us
    our opinion after he cooked because he couldn't trust our response. I 
    felt awful!  I should of told him the first time we had it.  
    Sometimes sparing someones feelings makes it worse later.
    
    My 2 cents
    Rose                                     
    

    	
    We don't have that problem at my house. 
    
    	Last night, 3 year old Andrew climbed up into his booster
    	seat, looked at his bowl, and said, "Mommy, you made a 
    	really yucky meal!"