Conference moira::parenting

    I can relate to that.  My son will be 1 on Friday, and he is hitting me
    as well as others in the face.  He thinks it's a game.  The more I say
    "NO" the more he hits and laughs.  I know he doesn't understand that
    hitting is bad, he is too young.  But I know that when he is getting
    into other things that he is not supposed to and I say "NO" he kinda
    giggles and does it again.  My husband is the only one he actually
    listens to when he says "NO". 
    
    I'm in the say boat as you.  I'm looking to hear some suggestions also.
    
    Donna
    

    Krystin did the same thing at that age.  When she hit us we would say,
    "Do you want me to hit you?"  If she hit us, we would hit her back on
    her hand. But it wasn't a hard hit, it was more of a love tap.  It
    never hurt, she never cried, but she did stop hitting!  I guess she
    just didn't like the idea of having it done to her.
    
    No flame throwing please....
    

I prefer the removal of what the kid is playing with.  Hitting seems to be going
around at the daycare toddler room, and Elise has started to hit me for fun.

I tell her I don't like it when she hits me and then I withdraw for a few 
minutes.  So she loses the chance to interact with me and it is clear to her that
it is the result of hitting.

I think a 14 month old may not understand the words, but s/he will understand
the tone of voice (outrage, disapproval).  If you then turn away for a minute,
it will only take 3-4 times before s/he connects withdrawal with hitting.

    Marisa was hitting this time last year so she was a year old. I would
    take her hand and say "No hitting, it hurts other people". I encouraged
    the other little kids at the babysitters to tell her it hurt them when
    she hit. She gradually stopped. Ever once in awhile I'll catch
    her hitting one of the cats and saying "no itting pookie". 
    
    Oh well...
    
    Donna 

    re .3 4 etc
    
    This of course assumes that a 14 month old can deal with abstract
    relationships. i.e. Child hits you. you say "We don't do that, it
    hurts and it's naughty.
    
    Here is someone who is just coming to grips with the language,
    and you expect him/her to understand "We" as an impertive assocation
    (i.e. Parent doesn't ergo child doesnt), to understand what "that" is
    or was. (the child may have quitely wet it's diaper at the same time,
    unbeknownst to you, and think that the admonition is in respect to
    that.) And of course, hurts and naughty can be fairly abstract concepts
    for an infant.
    
    Peter Q
    

RE: -1

Yes, it's true that a 14 month old won't understand the words, as I said.  Tone
of voice counts a lot. 

What we're really talking about here is behavior modification.  Dogs never learn
to speak English, but they do learn what behavior is appropriate, by the 
trainer's attitude - conveyed by tone of voice, body posture, etc.  The
difference is that we expect children to learn language, and so we should use it
whenever possible, in addition to tone of voice, etc.

It's true that if the baby coincidently wets her diaper at the same time you 
chastize her, several times in a row, she may at first think that's why you 
are unhappy.  But the fourth time, she won't wet her diaper and she'll have 
to re-evaluate.  She'll figure it out.

So, I stand by telling the child why; in the simplest terms and using the same
type of phrase each time ("We don't hit.  I don't like it when you hit me.").
A 14 month old child may not understand the purpose of the sentence, but when 
used consistently, at 15 months that child *will*.

   I don't remember my kids going through much of a hitting phase at
   that age, but I do recall getting slapped a couple of times... if I
   remember properly, all I said was "OW!" (kind of loud, but mostly
   from surprise, actually) and I told them that it hurt.  It didn't
   seem to last long, but I don't know if their behaviour changes were
   related to my reactions or not...
   
   - Tom
   

    I happened to be reading a bit about discipline last night and rather
    liked this suggestion: offer something positive rather than negative;
    the child has to learn how to live not how not to live.
    
    The example in the book dealt with a baby kicking on the changing
    table. The parents said "kick leaves not people" and it worked by
    focusing the child on a more positive outlet. Maybe banging hammers not
    faces would help ?

    
    Hi Kim,
    
    I read this suggestion in a pamphlet on discipline.  Try not to say
    "don't hit" or "don't ...(anything)".  Most children will learn the
    word hit before they understand the word don't.  Thus...young children
    will hear "blah hit" instead of "don't hit".  I don't know if this
    works, but I tried to leave the word "don't" out of my conversations with
    Kelsey.  Instead I would grab her hand and say (forcefully) "be nice"!
    
    The hitting stage seemed to only last about 1 month, but I don't know
    if I helped or she just got bored with hitting! :}
    
    Good Luck                                   
    Carol

re: .16

>What we're really talking about here is behavior modification.  Dogs never 
>learn to speak English, but they do learn what behavior is appropriate, by the 
>trainer's attitude - conveyed by tone of voice, body posture, etc.  The
>difference is that we expect children to learn language, and so we should use 
>it whenever possible, in addition to tone of voice, etc.

Sorry to break the seriousness of this note, but is there anyone else who 
wishes that their English-speaking kids had learned "sit", "stay" and "come" 
as well as their dog had learned it?	:^)


Clay

I appall myself sometimes when at some chaotic moment, I order Elise to 

"SIT!!! STAY!!!!"



especially when she drops to the ground and doesn't move....

    
    Boy it's nice to know that I'm not the only one being slapped by
    there 1 year old.  Well Emily will be 1 tomorrow, and yes I think
    everyone I know talks to kids like aminals.
    
    SIT, STAY........
    
    
    Now if I could just get Emily to stop hitting me.
    
    Lisa

My daughter also starting hitting at around 15 months.  She is the youngest
of 5 toddlers in daycare.  After discussions with my daycare provider, we
determined that the main reason for this behavior is that it was her only 
defense against the bigger kids when they would push her around physically or 
verbally (nothing serious just subtle nudges and strong 'no's from the other
children).

What her daycare person and I agreed to do is to first try and avoid 
situations that provoke her (because she has no other defenses yet) and if it 
happens, hold her hands while saying something to the effect of "no, no, hands 
are for hugging" and then pay no more attention to the incident.  My daycare 
person would also, from time to time, talk to the other children if they were 
provoking her so that it was clear that the hitting was in response to 
something 'not nice' that the other child did.

The result, in the beginning, she did continue to hit but it was followed by 
hugs (it was so cute).  It has been about three months and I just realized,
after reading this note that the hitting is becoming less and less.  Her 
verbal skills are improving and she is able to vocalize her frustrations better.
She is also getting bigger and can now do some 'nudging' back.  I think the
other children have also learned that when provoked, my daughter is not the
only one to be spoken to which has helped to eliminate some of the cause.

I think our approach is working but it does take time and patience.  

Deanna

P.S.  According to one pediatrician (mine), by 15 months, children can under-
stand most things that parents say.  

    
    
    Another vote that kids might not know what you are saying but they
    certainly know what you *mean* even if they don't understand the words.
    (and the words aren't human!)
    
    I offer this anecdote as an example.
    
    My 10 month old son was playing in the kitchen while I puttered around 
    washing up and peeling vegetables.  He is at the 'pulling up on things' 
    stage.  My 11 year old siamese cat was sitting on one of the kitchen
    stools on the off chance there might be a handout.  Well, Iain loves
    the cats and is very fond of taking hold of their tails and attempting
    to wave it about.  The cats (especially my siamese) aren't fond of this
    attention and take exception to it.
    
    Iain pulled up using the stool and reached for the siamese cat's tail.
    The  cat immediately pulled his tail out of reach and "told" Iain to
    stay away. (Siamese cats are very verbal)  None of the cats have ever
    made to bite or scratch Iain but that was before he became so mobile so
    I was watching this exchange carefully.
    
    Iain kept reaching up to find the tail and was touching the feet
    instead.  The cat kept giving verbal warnings until he got totally fed
    up and let out one of his "I am really fed up with what you are doing
    and I am going to resort to violence if you do it again"  yells. 
    Iain pulled his hand back and immediately burst into tears!  The cat
    got his message across without speaking English or raising a paw.
    
    It was difficult not to laugh while trying to comfort Iain.  The cat
    got a stroke as well for not scratching!
    
    LaDonna
           

    It's good to know we're not the only ones who carry over dog training
    to baby training!
    
    Last week Ilona repeatedly drank water in the swimming pool although I
    kept telling her "NO.  Don't drink.  It's DIRTY."  After about 6 times,
    I got frustrated and tapped her cheek as I said it.  I was appalled!  I
    had hit my precious child! (She never noticed by the way.)  
    
    I realized I had carried over my dog training.  As a puppy when he ate
    bad things or grabbed food too fast, we would say "NO!  LEAVE IT!" and
    gently hit the side of his muzzle.  (Same technique for biting, by the
    way, plus "NO BITE!")  Then I didn't feel so bad.
    
    My husband still says "NO BITE" "NO HIT" and so forth to Ilona.  I
    figure that since she can say "I want my prebent (present)", she 
    understands sentences. -;)
    
    The last time she clocked Bill with a toy, I grabbed her by the overall
    front and we BOTH barked "NO DON'T HIT" at her.  She burst into tears. 
    We figure she got the message.
    
    By the way, if your child cries after being disciplined, that's a good
    sign that you are effectively communicating.  The bad behavior will usually
    stop then.

    Although some of this may be inappropriate techniques for a toddler,
    what we did for AJ and the same technique was recommended at by the
    behavior psycologists at Umass Medical.
    
    When the child his, gently but firmly (I know it sounds contradictory
    doesn't it?) hold the childs hand down, or in their lap, and just like you
    do with a puppy say "NO Hitting!"  Not at Umass, but someone else told
    me to use "OW that hurt Mommy," if you were the one hit, or if the one
    hit is adult enough to use this method like an older sibling.
    
    It was actually just a year ago when someone overheard me talking to AJ
    in the context of "SIT, NO, Stay" in a very short period of time.  and
    commented that it sounded like I was talking to a dog.  Let's face it,
    raising kids IS very much like puppy training!
    
    Lyn

My son Alex is 23 months.  He seems to have finally stopped hitting about a 
month ago.  He's gone through various periods of hitting for many months.  
He would be into hitting a while and then not for while and so on.  I think
he's done now.

I've had a lot of difficulty dealing with his hitting.  Sometimes it was 
inconvenient: like when I was changing his diaper.  Sometimes it hurt my
feelings: My beautiful little baby that I've done so much for and love so
much is hitting me!?  Other times it really hurt: he's socked me in the eye
a couple of times really hard.

My wife and I tried various approaches, the previous replies describe 
some of them.  Here are some additional thoughts.

I feel strongly that being violent with a child is a bad idea.  If I hit
my child or speak harshly to him, the primary lesson that he receives is
that I am a mean parent who's not to be trusted.  That is the worst lesson
I could teach.

Oh yes, the child might get the message you want him/her to get, but, 
except perhaps in some extreme situations, it's not worth it.

Another principle that I've stumbled on to in trying to parent is to
empathize with the child.  Usually, if I'm having a hard time with Alex's
behavior, he's having a much harder time that's why he's behaving that way. 
Don't hassle him for his behavior, help him with his problem: he's hungry,
tired, messy, bored, something.  Often he just needs to be held.  (If I
hold him and he hits me, I put him down.)

Back to hitting thing.  I don't understand it really.  However, I believe
that part of the reason babies hit is because it's their clearest form of
communication.  It seems to me that there's a period of time when the child
is developed enough to have lots of ideas about what is and is not ok with 
them, but is to young to communicate well.  Hitting communicates clearly. 
If it's obvious to me that Alex is hitting because I'm doing something he
does not like, then, as much as possible, I interpret the hit as an
unfortunate form of communication and simply submit to his will.  No need
to hassle him for that.  As he gets older, he'll learn more effective
communication skills. Other times the hitting seems to be unrelated to
what's happening, and that different.

It can be frustrating to be a little guy/gal, and hitting is mostly just
an expression of that.

Also, I don't think a young child understands the relationship between his
actions and your (physical) hurt.  Indeed, it's simpler than that.  The 
young child does not understand that you hurt (or have any other existence
beyond his/her reality).  Alex has just begun to show a clear understanding 
of that his parents get hurt and that he (sometimes) hurts his parents. 
His new understanding coincides with the cessation of this hitting.  Hmm.

    re:  .10
    
    Training a small child is rather like training a pupply; i.e., use the
    same words for the same situation, keep a firm tone for correcting
    mistakes, and lots of praise for "good behavior."
    
    My oldest son (now four years old) liked to pinch ANYONE when he was a
    toddler.  We would firmly call him by name and tell him to stop. 
    Example:  "Alex, do not pinch Mommy.  It hurts!"  He got the message
    right away... I addressed him by name, told him specifically what to
    do/not do, and who it affected.  He did not always stop right away, but
    he got the message right away, and with enough repetition (3 or 4
    times) he understood that it would not be tolerated.
    
    If he did not stop I would separate the pincher and the "pinched."  I
    would put him in his play pen (or somewhere else safe) and remove
    myself from his line of sight.  This was between 12-24 months.  He soon
    understood that I meant business!  It worked well for that time period. 
    As soon as he stopped the undesirable action I would praise him; "Alex
    is such a good boy!" and give him a kiss.  He always has loved being
    fussed over and that was enough to make him happy.
    
    Now if I could just get over the tantrums at 4 years old...
    
    Kathy
    

	We've recently gone through this with Sean (now 18mo)... he *loved*
   punching, hitting, and biting me.  Rarely did he express himself this way
   at daycare or with his father!  Our provider was shocked when I picked him
   up one day and he joyfully started punching and biting my shoulder.

	It doesn't make sence, to me, to hit a child to express "don't hit" or
   anything else... it feels inconsisant to me... (adults are allowed to hit,
   but little-ones aren't??!).  We too have dogs... I would have loved to
   pinch Seans cheeks in and let him bite himself while saying "don't bite!"
   but he only has 6 teeth! *sigh*

	In the hitting department, what has worked with Sean has been to show
   him what was appropriate: he'd hit, and we'd shake our heads while saying 
   "Don't hit.  See, pat nicely." while taking his hand and either stroking or
   patting the victim (the occassional - "oh that feels sooo goood!" or 
   purrr or dog nussle in appreciation didn't hurt either!).  When he wasn't
   interested in getting the message or was taking particular delight with 
   attacking me, I'd  either put him down (if holding him) or put him in his
   crib.  The big thing (for Sean) was to be ignored.  Fortunately, the only 
   time he attacked in public was at our care-giver's home, so putting him down
   & ignoring him worked. 

	The "putting down/ignoring" routine seemed to affect the biting
   episode as well...  

	Now that I've written this, any bets that someone comes home today and
   attacks Mom?? ;-)

				-Caroline

   

    
    I am currently going through this with my almost 1 yr old, and some
    days it drives me NUTS!  Usually I notice it the most when I get to
    daycare to pick him up and am holding him in my arms and trying to talk
    to the provider about his day. I get swatted in the face repeatedly!
    Hard too!  I could see where maybe he is saying "mommy, don't talk to
    her, I've missed you look at me"...but its not the only time it
    happens. (just the only time it really embarrasses me!) Other times it
    seems more of an "excitment" thing...getting overly excited...  
    
    I've tried the holding of the hands and saying "no hit" or "be nice",
    but he just keeps it up....sometimes I end up putting him down and
    acting sad, saying "you hurt mommy"....  but he doesn't seem phased by
    this at all...  I don't know what to do....
    
    Up until this week he hasn't been doing it at daycare or with his dad
    either, just me....?  I guess yesterday he started on the almost 2 yr
    old girl at daycare...I felt so bad.
    
    Chris
    

    
    
>    I've tried the holding of the hands and saying "no hit" or "be nice",
>    but he just keeps it up....sometimes I end up putting him down and
>    acting sad, saying "you hurt mommy"....  but he doesn't seem phased by
>    this at all...  I don't know what to do....
    
    
    	Try not letting his hands go for awhile (like 5-10min). I did this
    with my kids and my nephew alot when they went through the hitting
    stage. I actually had to put my nephew *under* my legs when I was
    sitting on the couch to cool him off....:*)
    
    	Usually they get very angry when they are restrained for a long
    period of time....it drives the message home that if they hit, they
    will be restrained again. Granted, you do need to take some time out of
    your day, but I feel the end result justifies the time....
    
    
    						jim s.
    

    My daughter (25 months) has just started hitting.  I have never had
    this problem up until now.  I was wondering if anyone has any
    suggestions on how to handle this.  Most of the previous notes refer to
    12-18 month old children.  How have people dealt with this with a
    little bit older children?
    
    The only change in her life is that she recently (around the time
    of this behavior change) moved into an older room at her Daycare
    Center.  Once she settles in there, will this behavior stop?
    
    Currently I give her an immediate time out for hitting, but so far it
    doesn't appear to be helping.  Still is has only been a couple of
    weeks.
    
    Thanks,
    Meaghan
                                                          

    It takes a long time to get past the hitting - biting - pinching stage. 
    Be firm.  Be clear about your expectations and standards.  Let her know
    this is bad behavior and you will not accept it.  Time out.  Sounds
    like you are doing the right thing.
    
    L

    
    She may have learned the behavior from her new group.
    
    My strategy - borrowed liberally from _Siblings without Rivalry_  - 
    is 
    
    Put words to what the child may be feeling
    	"My! You must be feeling frustrated/angry/sad. 
    
    Describe the situation
    	{Jonny won't let you have the toy you want.. or whatever}
    
    State the rule
    	"hitting is not acceptable. People are not for hitting"
    
    Look for alternatives
    	"use your words to tell Jonny {whatever}. Words work better than
    	hitting."
    	                                        
    
    Jamd
    	

My 21 month old daughter often annoys one of the boys are her daycare.  Right
now there are only three children - my daughter and two boys (one 9 months the
other 3 years old).  When Alex, the 3 year old, is watching a video/TV, my
daughter will go over and wack him on the head with the play phone.  She
hasn't exhibited this behavior with other children that are there on occassion,
only Alex.  But, needless to say, this is still a concern of mine.
She does not watch any videos or shows that would encourage hitting and we
don't tolerate any rough playing.
When my daycare person disciplines her, my daughter often interprets it as
a joke or play even though my daycare person is very firm.  (She does this 
at home with me sometimes too).

My guess is that she is just trying to get attention.  She enjoys being the
center of attention and since she is an only child right now, she gets our
attention at home.  At the same time, we do encourage her to play by herself and
she can do that too.

Has anyone had a similar problem?  Is there anything else we can do besides
continuing to discipline her (firm reprimand, taking her away from the
situation, making her sit my herself for a minute...etc.)?  Is this common
in kids her age?  How much can we expect at this age?

    Hi,
    
    I think hitting and being rough is very common. At least it is for my
    21 mos old. My son acts similarly to what you have described, he has
    hit me over the head with a book, thrown a toy at me or his father, and
    he has bitten us. He does not watch any TV except for channel 2 shows - 
    Sesame St., Barney - and does not see any violence (as far as I know). 
    
    Yes, I definitely think they do this to get attention and they think
    it's funny. Interesting enough Andrew has never bitten anyone at
    daycare including his sitter. He has only bitten his father and I (and
    it happens more with his father when they are rough-housing). His sitter 
    says he gets rough occasionally with the other little boy at daycare
    but not with her (he's well behaved for her!). 
    
    So, I thought maybe the biting was a show of affection. The hitting
    and rough play he does are with people he's very familiar with and
    likes.  
    
    This is what my husband and I did. 
    
    1. When an incident would occur such as biting (which is not
    acceptable) we would warn him next time he did that he would get a time
    out. And we stuck to it - several times. He didn't like it and most of
    the time would stop his undesirable behavior. 
    
    Time outs don't always work. Sometimes we'd have to change the
    situation. If we were playing with blocks, I'd tell him to go get a
    book and we'd read or we'd go outside. Whatever. Sometimes it's a must
    to distract the child and do something different. 
    
    2. We both told him NO BITING! kisses! Over and over. And we blew
    kisses at each other. Well, now he goes around blowing lots of kisses. 
    Sure beats biting! It's almost like he wanted to interact with us and
    do something funny. We laugh at the kisses and he does it all the more. 
    
    Andrew has stopped his biting. At least for now. So I don't know if it
    was just a stage or if the discipline and talking worked. It's probably
    a combination of everything. 
    
    Good luck with working this out!
    
    Karen 

	Kristen is just about 19months old and has started hitting also,
	Just in the past few days and we've noticed that she does it when
	she wants someone to play with her.  She doesn't go to daycare, but
	My sister-in-law and I share childcare, we both work part-time and
	watch the other one's child when they're working.  So Kristen spends
	3 days a week with her older cousin who is 3yrs old.  I've seen
	the same situation:  3yr old is watching video, Kristen wants him
	to play with her, so she goes up to him and smacks him.

	Luckily he knowns that this is naughty behavior and usually won't
	hit her back, he calls my attention to it and I do a few things.

     1. I let him know that she is learning how to talk but can't actually
	tell him she wants to play, so this is her way of communicating.
	Even though it isn't right, she isn't doing it to be mean to him and
	us grown-ups are going to teach her the right way to behave.  He's
	so intelligent and seems to understand this explanation.

     2. I tell Kristen that hitting is not nice and say something like,
	if you want someone to play with you say "play".  I usually don't
	give her a time-out for this.  Then I'll play something with her
	so Michael can watch his video in peace.

	If she is hitting me or my husband we try to show her how to touch
	nicely and if it continues than she gets a time-out.  I really like
	the idea of saying "kisses" and blowing kisses.  Because I agree,
	I think she is only doing this to have something fun to do in an
	interactive way.  I think this because she's laughing like crazy
	when she does this to my husband or I.  I've also noticed that she
	gets a great reaction out of other adults - they treat it like a game
	so she does it all the more. (I'm speaking mostly of Aunts,Uncles,
	and Grandparents)  I didn't use to say anything, but now I let them
	know that we don't want her to think this is okay, so please don't
	laugh at it.  I'm going to start the kissing idea - I really like
	that, I think she just needs to be shown another way to express 
	herself.

	It's really just a phase (in my opinion) but I'm all for making this
	phase as short as possible.

	Good Luck,
	Karen T.