Conference moira::parenting

    Does your school system have a readiness/transition program.  My son
    went to K at the age of 5, but went on to readiness after that because
    he wasn't quite ready for 1st.  He has blossomed this past year and
    seems to be ready for 1st.  I have seen a big change in him -
    emotionally, but I don't know if it's his "age" that promoted this
    change or if being in a school environment and especially readiness
    that has promoted the growth.
    
    My second son is about to start public K and he is ready (moreso than
    my first was/is - I can now say from hindsight).
    
    -sandy
    

     See Parenting, version 3.  Note 786 addresses your question most
directly, but note 622 and note 1001 also have information.  For information
on how to access Parenting_V3, or to add it to your notebook, see note 9.21.

Clay

    
    Almost all the studies on this subject point to the child's environment
    as a major issue. I'm going to assume that he has lots of other little
    friends. Where do most of them fit into the picture? If the child has
    strong attachments to a group of kids who are going to grade K in the
    fall then you may well be better off letting the child go and working
    with staff to ensure they're aware of any problem areas. If private 
    Kindergarten is a consideration then you might explore Montessorri as
    a possibility. Kids are grouped in age brackets of 3 years (3-6, 6-9,
    9-12) and work at their own pace. If public Kindergarten is really
    your only option then I would sit down with the Early Childhood
    director or the principal NOW and discuss your concerns. These people
    will take this into consideration when matching your child with a
    teacher. Another consideration maybe the structure of Kindergarten. A
    5 day 1/2 day program is probably more beneficial for emotionally
    younger children. A number of area systems have moved to full day 
    systems 3 on 2 off to alleviate transportation expenses. This has a
    child in school the same time as all other kids and may present
    difficult transitions to some kids.  Again, speak to all the people
    involved about your concerns. It isn't an easy decision to make. 

    Our town (Littleton, Mass) has a transition program that
    applies between kindergarden and 1st grade.  Towards the end of
    kindergarden children are evaluated according to their social,
    emotion, physical, and intellectual age.  The idea is that
    children should be at least 6 years old not only in terms of
    their actual age, but also in terms of other development, before
    entering 1st grade.  The results of the test determine whether
    the child should go to 1st grade or transition.  We have met many
    parents who sent their children to transition instead of 1st grade;
    all were completely happy about that decision, as their children
    blossomed and did extremely well when they finally did enter 1st
    grade.
    
    The counselers pointed out that one of the best ways of turning off
    a child to education is to put him/her into an environment that
    he/she cannot cope with.  Transition is the way that our school
    system gives the child an opportunity to mature enough to fit into
    1st grade.
    
    Without transition, the only alternatives would have been to repeat
    kindergarden, to start kindergarden a year later, or to hope that
    our son would be able to cope.
    
    So, first see if your school system has a transition program.  If it
    doesn't, then you may want to hold your child back a year before
    starting kindergarden.
    
    Although holding your child back a year now might seem difficult,
    especially if all his/her friends are going to enter kindergarden,
    it will be much more difficult and frustrating later should problems
    arise.
    

>    We have a son (Steven) who will be 5 years old on September 15, 1992,
>    and are trying to decide whether to enroll him in kindergarten or a
>    advanced pre-k program for 5 year olds. Of late we have been reading
>    many articles by educators which advocate starting children in 
>    kindergarten no earlier then 5 1/2 to 6 years old. 

We faced a similar situation ---- our daughter Maggie will turn 5 on 
October 26, 1992.  The cut-off date in our town is Sept. 30.  

Here are some random thoughts on the subject.......

	I started Kindergarten on my fifth birthday, which happens
	also to be September 15.  I was one of the younger ones in my 
	class all the way through school.  Sometimes that was a problem.  

	I spent most of first grade in the hallway due to my immaturity
	and inability to concentrate.  However, the fact that I already
	knew how to read, write, add, and subtract caused me to be bored, 
	so I saw no reason to pay attention.  I don't know if I would
	have been better off waiting a year.  

	Today, they teach a lot of reading and writing in Kindergarten; when 
	I started school, we weren't taught those things until first grade
	(I had learned them at home)  This may be why the trend is to 
	hold kids back longer now.

	*In general*, (NO FLAMES, PLEASE) boys are less mature at that
	age than girls, so where it might be OK to send a 5-year old
	girl to K, it might be better to keep a boy back another year.	
	Again, I am speaking generalities; you have to know how mature 
	your child is compared to others his age.

We have decided to send Maggie to another year of preschool, the school 
will test those kids who are within 3 months of the cut-off date, and her 
preschool teacher has said she is confident Maggie would pass..........but 
we decided not to push her yet (when she's in med school, I'll push her :-) )
We don't really see the need to rush her.

just my 2 cents worth.

Frank

    My daughter and son were both August babies, and I really didn't know
    any better so they went to kindergarten within weeks of turning 5. 
    My daughter struggled thru kindergarten with attention problems and
    behavior problems due to the fact she preferred to socialize instead of
    work.  She was passed on to first grade where she had an even harder
    time keeping up with her classmates.  At the end of the year she was so
    far behind that they decided to hold her back.  So she repeated first
    grade and did much better and is now getting all A's and B's and now
    going on to fifth grade.  My son repeated kindergarten, and is now
    going on to third grade and getting all A's and B's.  So, if had to do
    it all over again and knew what I now know I would make them wait a
    year or take pre-K.
    
    regards,
    
    lynne c.
    

    To the base noter:
    
    
    What does your *gut* say?  Is he ready?  If you truly believe he's
    ready, send him to school.  But if your gut says he's not quite 
    ready for some reason (I have three boys, so social skills leap
    to mind :-) ), give him the extra year.  Articles and tests are nice,
    but you know your child better than anyone...  
    
    
    

    Carrie started kindergarten last year just before her 6th birthday. 
    believe me, she needed the extra year.  It gave her time to become more
    patient with writing, sitting still and cooperating with other kids.  
    
    We didn't have her tested  "readiness" the year before, it was clear
    to us that she needed more time.
    
    She came through this year in flying colors, and loves school for the
    time being.
    
    Meg

    My suggestion would be to request of the school system a full CORE
    evaluation.   It isn't too late but DO it in WRITING, and mail it with
    a receipt requested.  (This whole thing came thanks to AJ's preschool
    director, who wrote the letter on my behalf and even did the mailing!)
    
    This CORE testing will help to determine for both yours, and the
    school's benifit, whether your youngster is emotionally ready for
    school, and also help to target if there are any potential learning
    problems that need to be addressed.
    
    I do know what you are feeling.  I've been struggling with this same
    issue for a few weeks now, it has really created many "maalox moments!"
    
    Lyn

    Sorry for the delay in writing back (On the road two weeks and then a
    weeks vacation), I appreciate all the feedback we received. 
    
    We had Steven tested again at the public school and he passed. Based on
    some of the feedback we received via notes we spent some time observing
    Steven's reaction when challenged (ie. saying the entire alphabet), it
    seems when presented with a task that is difficult he is quick to give
    up. We have also found out that both the private and public K classes
    will be made up of mostly 51/2 to 6 year olds. After much thought we
    decided to see how he progresses through July, and if it appears that
    he is status quo we will enroll him in a 5 year old pre-k and send him
    to K when he is 6.
    
    Again Thank you for your feedback and support. 

I live in Hudson, New Hampshire which does not have a public kindergarten.
My son is only 19 months old so I hadn't given kindergarten much thought
up to now.  A friend of mine has a newborn and she's already got her baby
on a list for a very expensive, upscale private kindergarten.  Now she's
got me wondering whether I should be investigating kindergartens already.
For those of you who live in towns with no public kindergarten, when did
you start looking and how did you determine the quality?

Thanks,
Kathy

    I live in Hudson, too.  My sons (now in second and third grade) went
    to Teddy Bear Day Care, which takes kids from 2 years and up.  For
    us there was no question that they would go to kindergarten there--
    they started there as young 'uns and it was a natural progression.
    We had wonderful success there.  The classes are small, and there's
    a lot of individualized attention.  The boys have been there for 
    about 5 years now (!) and the *same* teachers are there.  We like
    that.
    
    My oldest started reading when he was 4, and my second child started
    when he was 5.  Both had excellent preparation for "big school" and
    had no problem with the transition.  My youngest is 3 and will also
    attend kindergarten at Teddy Bear.
    
    The added plus for us is that the school bus will pick up and drop
    off the children at the daycare, so I don't have to worry about afterschool
    care.
    
    Because Hudson does not have public kindergarten, the abilities of the
    first graders are widely varied.  If your child knows his letters,
    numbers, and basic social skills, he should have no problem.  I'll never
    forget my oldest son's first day of school.  As I stood watching him
    (and the millions of other children) line up to walk into the school, 
    one little girl burst into tears.  The teacher moved the girl to the
    head of the line so she could hold her hand and reassure her.  The mother 
    standing next to me said, "Ah, that little girl obviously didn't go to 
    kindergarten."
    
    Also, you should be aware that Hudson tests the children to make sure
    they're ready for the first grade.  If the child attends kindergarten, the
    kindergarten teacher can also make recommendations as to whether the 
    child is ready for first grade or should attend Readiness.
    
    
    Pam
                       

    My son, who will be five later this month, will be going to public
    school for the first time next year. I'm trying to figure out
    whether he will be ready for first grade (he's in a private
    Montessori kindergarten right now.) 
    
    I would love to delay this decision, but my city (Cambridge, MA)
    has a "controlled choice" program and you must select three schools
    you want your kid to go to by January 15. You must pick either
    kindergarten *or* first grade.
    
    Naturally I am polling lots of people. His current teacher recommends
    kindergarten. His pediatrician (who knows him fairly well, but 
    not *very* well) says to go for first grade. I am torn.
    
    If you have been through this, how did you decide? How did it turn
    out? Any suggestions? 
    
    Lucy

    Most schools have a policy regarding age and entry into
    Kindergarten and First Grade.  In our school, I believe that the
    cutoff is Sept 15....if the child is 5 on or before that date,
    they can enter Kindergarten.  Same for 6 and entering 1st Grade.
    I think there is a move to make Sept. 1 the uniform cutoff date
    across the state.

    In our school, there is an appeals process where the child can
    be 'readiness tested' and be reviewed by all the teachers involved
    and the principal.

    Its impossible to give an informed opinion without knowing the
    child involved.  In general, I would recommend that he be
    put into Kindergarten next year, as that seems like the more
    'normal' age/grade match.  Perhaps there are unusual circumstances
    in this case.  Also, his teacher is recommending Kindergarten and
    that seems pretty significant.  I would not put much weight on the
    doctor's opinion for school readiness.

    Our son's birthday is New Year's Eve...so he is one of the older
    kids in his class.  And i'm real glad of that.
    bob    

    Bob,
    
    Part of what makes this decision hard is that our town has a March 1
    cutoff date (yes, you read that right) -- if you're 4 by March 1, you
    can go to kindergarten the following Sept. Likewise, if you're 5 by
    March 1, you can go to first grade the following September. So Daniel
    is eligible for first grade but could also go to kindergarten - it's
    our decision.
    
    What I'm really looking for is other parents' stories about how they
    made a similar decision. Bob, when you say you're glad your son is
    among the oldest in his class, why?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lucy

You need to look at a number of things. The first rule of thumb is to look 
harder at your child's emotional needs than his educational needs. He will
learn at his own pace no matter what you do.

Since he's in a Montessori setting he's most likely been exposed to kids that
are both younger and older than himself. He's also made friends there. Remember
that these people are important to him. You need to judge where these other
kids are going to be over the next few years. If you can draw a clear picture
of a close knit group of kids then follow that to it's logical conclusion.

Another item to consider is your child's ability to handle frustration coupled
with his current educational abilities. Again because of the Montessori setting,
your child has probably been exposed to more than the average Kindergartener.
Talk to his teacher about where he fits in his ability to do the school work and
observe your child when he's given tasks that are very easy for him and tasks 
that present a challenge. If a child is easily bored with things he deems easy
and is not easily frustrated with things that are new to him then he may well
be more emotionally ready for the step up. A child who gets bored in the 
classroom because the work is too easy will quickly get bored with the classroom
period.

This is not an easy decision. It's not easy for you the parent. Nor is it easy
for the educators. It has long term implications for your child. Frankly, I'ld
like to see more uniformity in entrance eligibility but that is unlikely to 
happen soon. Early childhood programs, starting at 3 years old, may make this
a moot point by spending 2 years getting children and parents ready for the 
13 years of our educational system. 

One more caution about your particular case. Montessori style education can
present some problems for children transitioning to a more traditional style
classroom. A child who is a "hands on" learner thrives in the Montessori 
environment. That same child may become frustrated in a learning environment
where he is unlikely to have the manipulatives to "do it himself", especially
if there is little or no transitional time.

    At these early ages, boys tend to be less developmentally
    ready for school than girls.  (I'm saying 'tend' here, this
    is not a sexist comment, this just happens to be true in general).
    There are specific things that teachers look for that signal
    that a child is ready for school...I'm not an expert here but
    you should be able to have help from your public school in making
    this decision.  If not, and they have this incredibly early age,
    they are being quite irresponsible.

    Our son was over 5 1/2 months old when he entered Kindergarten.
    At that point he was ready for it.  I think that most of the
    kids in the class were MORE ready for it.  His hands had not
    developed good fine motor control (a common issue with boys).
    He was barely able to do the 'art' that is common in kindergarten.
    It was VERY clear to him that he could not draw as well as the
    rest of the class.  he could not hold a pencil as well or form
    letters.  this is a kid who is very bright and an excellent athlete.
    He is physically quite young for his age.  He's now almost 7
    and he has just started to lose his first teeth...a good indication
    of a lot of developmental signs.  Most kids his age have lost a LOT
    of teeth already.

    Kids develop each skill at VERY different rates.  Their brains as well
    as the rest of their body develop at very different rates.  This
    decision has to be made for each child individually.

    Here is a different way of looking at it.  What is your hurry?  There
    is a great deal more 'bad' that can happen by starting him off too
    young (and having him think he's not as good as the rest of the kids
    in his class.....or holding him back for a second year of kindergarten)
    than in holding him out and starting a year later.  I would consider
    starting him at that young age to be a VERY unusual situation.  Perhaps
    it is correct in your son's case.
    bob

    Bob,
    
    Just to clarify -- I'm not in any hurry to get him into first grade.
    I'm trying to stay objective (ha - impossible!) and make the decision
    that is right for *him*.   
                           
    I'm balancing several things: playing the Cambridge school choice game
    (a whole separate subject, with big impact on your child), weighing his
    young age/maturity for first grade against his possible boredom with K
    material, wondering if he will feel belittled if he goes into K while
    his friends go into first, etc. 
    
    Thanks for the story about your son. Mike Gilbert, thanks for your
    note too. I have also read all the earlier versions of the file.
    
    Lucy   
    
      

I went through a similar situation last year.  My son's birthday is June 29 and
the cutoff date is September 1.  The year he turned five (last year) I had the
decision to make on whether to start him in Kindergarten or do another year of
Preschool.  If I sent him he would be one of the youngest in the class.  If I
held him he would be one of the oldest.   I really labored over this decision. 
I talked with his teachers at the Preschool (they recommended holding him) I
talked with his Doctor (he recommended holding him) and then I went and talked
to the Kindergarten teacher and she too said if there is any doubt, hold him. 
Even with all that I still felt hesitant about holding him!  All the kids he
played with in the neighborhood all were going to start kindergarten but I
could see some big differences in maturity and concerntration levels between
him and some of them. I decided to hold him.  Even after making the decison, I
felt uncomfortable about it ... until this year when he started Kindergarten! 
He absolutely loves school this year, his fine motor skills (coloring and
letter writing) have improved dramatically in that one year, as well as his
concentration levels.  I am much more confident about him taking the bus and
handling himself with other older children.  All and all, I am really glad that
I held him.  I think the major concern to take into consideration is the
maturity level and whether they can handle the quantity of fine motor skills
that are required of them.  I don't think my son could have handled
Kindergarten last year.  

I feel the wait was definitely worth while!  We'll see what the teacher thinks
... my first parent/teacher conference is tonight.

Joyce

     First of all, let me say I agree with all the advice that says if there
is any doubt, don't start him, for all the reasons already stated.  In
addition, while the consequences of a child being retained in kindergarten
fade over time (and are less severe than the consequences of "passing" him
when he shouldn't be), they do exist, and some children that age can be quite
unkind or unthoughtful to classmates who "flunk" kindergarten.
     Our experience with our son is mixed.
     His birthday is August 28, and the cutoff in our school district is
December 31.  His preschool teachers, his pediatrician, and our observation
of his emotional and intellectual development (modified by our comparison
with his older sister at a similar age) all said to start him, so we did.
     It has been interesting for us to note that despite the fact that,
theoretically, about 25% of the kids in his class should be younger than he,
in actuality, he's been either the youngest or next to it just about every
time; I attribute this to parents of kids close to the cutoff choosing to not
start their children.
     Academically, he's been successful.  In fact, academically we COULDN'T
have held him back, because, when not challenged, he gets careless and
underachieves.  His reading is above grade level, even having started early. 
Gross and fine motor skills-wise, he competes successfully athletically, and
handwriting and the like are good, when he's not being careless.
     Socially, he shows a lot of impatience.  He's got to be first in line
and first to finish (even if it means getting wrong answers).  In gym and on
the playground, he shows impatience with kids who are not as skilled or as
motivated, and does not yet have "winning" in perspective.  The problem is,
we don't know how much of this is immaturity, and how much of this is just
his personality.
     In summary, if we had to do it over again, we would still do it the same
way, but even with our relatively successful experience, there have been some
drawbacks.
     Personally, I would value the pre-school teacher's input more than the
pedi's, assuming she's had some training in childhood development and knows
the local schools, as I would expect a Montessori teacher would.

Clay
         

    Thanks for all the responses so far. I plan to meet with the
    educational psychologist, or whatever she's called, who does
    CORE evaluations (what does that mean, anyway?). She supposedly
    can give some guidelines and make recommendations, and do this
    evaluation if we want.
    
    Lucy

Core evaluations = battery of tests to determine special needs. 

Most people think of Special Needs as a requirement for intervention to correct
deficiencies. However, the tools can also be used to identify areas where a
child is gifted as well. The real frustration comes when you try to get services
for a gifted child.

    Maybe this is covered in the previous volume, but I didn't see it
    there, so here goes.
    
    My son's nursery school teacher and I had a little chat earlier
    this week.  She asked me what I thought about keeping James out of
    kindergarten another year.  I was floored, but said I'd consider it.
    Here's why she made the suggestion:
    
    	.Fine motor control.  He still isn't very good at coloring,
    	 claims "my hands get tired" if he has to use scissors for
    	 any length of time, etc.  
    
    	.Immaturity.  The teacher said James has a hard time finishing
    	 his work (usually because he's so busy kibitzing and looking
    	 at everyone else's work).  She spends a lot of time motivating
    	 him, working with him, etc., which you can do in a 10-kid
    	 nursery school class.  But our local school's 1993-94 kindergarten
         will have at least 16 and possibly as many as 25 kids *in each
     	 class*, and that one-on-one attention is not going to be there.
    	 The teacher won't have time, and James will probably get behind.
    
    	.Emotions.  "He's a sensitive young man," is the way the teacher
    	 put it.  She's concerned that some of the more rough-and-tumble
    	 types will find out that they can get under his skin, and he'll
    	 get the snot teased out of him, which as we all know doesn't do
     	 anything for you.  Either that, or he'll function really well at
    	 school, but take it all out on us at home.
    
    This little guy will be 5 at the end of this month, which means he'll
    be closer to 5.5 by the time school takes in in September.  I know that
    a lot can change between now and then.  The nursery school teacher said
    that she would go ahead and take him to the school district's
    kindergarten screening, since they may find something that we can work
    on, or they may make the same recommendation, too.  Intellectually,
    he's ready.  He needs a little more seasoning, in her opinion.
    
    Has anyone else started their kids late, and if so, what were some of
    the effects on the family, the child, future school career, etc.  He is
    a very bright kid and I want him to be happy.

    Well, I haven't been in this exact situation, but I have two January
    boys, so they're at the "old" end of the class (they turned 7 in
    January of their first grade year).  They've never had any trouble in
    school, so I'm glad I didn't push to get them enrolled earlier (as
    with everything, there are exceptions to the rules...)
    
    One of the boys in my second son's kindergarten class was similar 
    to how your son's teacher described your son.  The teacher recommended
    Readiness for the boy, but because he scored well on the entrance exam,
    the school placed him in first grade anyway.  He was *not* ready.  He did 
    not do well, and had troubles right from the start, and in October, he
    was placed in Readiness.  I think being "demoted" like that would be 
    worse than starting there to begin with...

    My nephew stayed in preschool for an extra year for nearly identical
    reasons.  He'll go to kindergarten this fall and my brother and
    sister-in-law are very comfortable with his development this year.  
    He would have been in real trouble if they did not decide to keep him
    in preschool.
    
    judy

Evan turned 5 today, and I think if the teacher said this to me about him
that I would talk with *him* about it.  I would explain that (I?  the teacher?
we?) were unsure about whether it would be a good idea for him to start 
Kindergarten and why.  I would bring up specific things, like the scissors,
and see how *he* felt about it.  Often I can learn things that help me make
my decision.  For instance, Evan might tell me another reason why he doesn't
use the scissors long, or else he might say that he *really* wants to go
to Kindergarten at the same time as his friends and then he would make an
effort to change the things that the teacher was concerned about.  Because of
his age (and his lack of understanding long-term consequences) if he
showed no interest in attending Kindergarten this year then I would make sure
he understood some of the cons about waiting - such as the fact that his 
friends would be going to Kindergarten and wouldn't be in his class anymore.

Good luck!

      Carol

    Thanx for all the replies so far.  I think I will have him go through
    the kindergarten screening -- the nursery school teacher recommended
    that.  My husband ended up being kept back in 6th grade for social/
    maturity reasons, and it really turned him off on school.  James is
    so intelligent that I would really hate for him to get off on the
    wrong foot in school.
    
    Do the fine motor skills issue, the immaturity, etc., automtically
    mean that he is attention-deficit?  Or does it just mean that he
    has some problems with fine motor skills, needs to grow up a little,
    etc.  
    
    I especially was interested in the reply from the Noter -- wish I could
    remember which one -- whose son sounds exactly like my James:  very
    bright, early reader, excellent athlete.  That was very helpful to know
    that there are other kids out there like mine.

     I agree with the previous responses to the extent that if there is
doubt, it's best to stay back.  But by all means talk to the teacher about 
his intellectual development, and discuss the possibility of his getting 
bored.
     One thing you might look into is a private kindergarten, if necessary 
that is combined with daycare.  That way, if the preschool teacher is right, 
he could start kindergarten with no stigma attached.  If the preschool 
teacher is not right, and/or if he has an social "growth spurt," then he 
could go to first grade next year.

re: .27

>    Do the fine motor skills issue, the immaturity, etc., automtically
>    mean that he is attention-deficit? 

     Fine motor skills have little to do with ADD/ADHD.  Immaturity (in theh
sense of impulse control, et.) and attention span do, but they will be more
out of the norm in an ADD/ADHD child than it sounds like James is.  If James
is ADHD, you probably would have gotten some feedback about being
disruptive. 

re: .26

     Carol, I think this is one of those rare cases I will disagree with
you.  While it might be worthwhile to talk to him about why he doesn't like
to use the scissors, I wouldn't put it in the context of its being a reason
for not going to kindergarten.  The scissors thing is an example, not a
reason; fine motor control is the reason.
     As for "putting effort" into changing things that the teacher was
concerned about, immaturity and lack of focus and attention span are not
things you can overcome by effort.  Some of the behavior perhaps might be
changed, but I fear it would be at a cost of creating internal pressure.
     And it is precisely the fact that kids this age don't have long term
focus that I wouldn't ask him directly.  Having a tough first year and
facing the possibility of "flunking" kindergarten, are not be things that a
kid this age would taking into account, but they can be traumatic.  If
handled correctly, I think the disappointment over not starting school could
be overcome, and in fact he might enjoy pre-school MORE next year, because
his fine motor and social skills will be equal to or above his pre-school
peers.
     As for remaining with his friends, I don't know what James' (.23)
situation is, but I wouldn't place too much emphasis in that.  From our
experience, there isn't a lot of carryover anyway.  In our children's case,
their daycare/preschool was in the school district; in fact they picked up
the school bus at daycare, and got delivered there at the end of the school
day.  But despite that fact, neither of them had any friends from daycare
who were also school friends.  All the daycare friends ended up in a
different class or even a different school (made for some humongous birthday
parties, with several sets of friends). 
     
Clay

    Please refer discussions about Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) to note
    404, and about general attention problems in school to note 368.
    
    Thanks,
    Laura
    co-mod

You may also wish to contact the school department to find out
if the school system has integrated "transition" kindergarten.
In our town there is an extended day kindergarten for those
who need extra help whether it be a learning disability or
maturity issue.  The school system also has a "transition"
first grade for those children not quite ready for first grade
but would be bored if they repeated kindergarten.

Our son Kevin is in kindergarten this year. It's a big change
for him but he is doing very good.  He is very sensitive and
shy in school (so was I, though I doubt anyone I work with would
believe that now).  He tells the teacher he is getting teary eyed
when he starts to feel overwhelmed by what he is doing. He tested
fine for kindergarten last year. We have gone to some lengths to
insure that his schedule is very stable and there is little disruption
in his routines. 

I think it was more traumatic on Mom than Kevin when he started
kindergarten.

Best of Luck,

Pat K.

    I second the suggestion to have James take the kindergarten screening
    test.  I would also recommend looking into private kindergarten.
    The teacher/student ratio is usually much better in private
    kindergarten, and James can get more teacher attention and 
    assistance.  If both his preschool teacher and public kindergarten
    screening test recommend keeping him back.  I would consider
    their advise seriously.  Some skills just come in time and you really
    cann't push it.
    
    Your note makes me think that I should have a conference with 
    Eric's preschool teacher soon.  Eric will be 5 at the end of
    July.  I also want to make sure that he is kindergarten ready.
    
    Wendy                   

    I have not yet checked with the school department, but the nursery
    school teacher said that most of the pre-K classes are for kids with
    special needs.  I asked her about sending James to preschool 5 days a
    week next year, and she said that's too much school for him at this
    particular time.
    
    Last night, I got the pre-registration packet from the school district
    in the mail.  I opened it and said to James, "Here's the
    pre-registration stuff for kindergarten.  We have to go and register
    you in a couple of weeks."
    
    James:  (noncommittal grunt)
    
    Me:  How would you feel if you spent another year in day school?
    
    James:  That would be cool.  I could go to Mrs. Glick's class.
    
    In fact, now I remember that in January, James told me on more than one
    occasion that "I'm going to be in Mrs. Glick's class next year," and
    I would say, "No, honey, you're going to big school".....wonder if the
    child was trying to tell me something!
    
    Anyway, does anyone have any info about pre-K programs -- their cost,
    curriculum, what I can expect, etc.  I am also wondering what effect
    the possibility of not starting K next year will have on James'
    self-esteem.

    I'd say wait.
    
    My daughter was born Sept. 19, which will make her ineligible for
    Kindegarten until she is almost 6.  Now, she's only 2.5, but it is
    already an issue since her pre-school class "moves up" together and
    we've been asked if we want to keep moving her along with children who
    are up to 6 months older than her.  Suddenly for K, she is going to get
    left behind, but we say "yes" since she is tall for her age and has been
    keeping up so far.
    
    BUT, my mother (who has taught third grade for 30 years) has strongly
    advised us AGAINST pushing her.  She kept my sister (now a lawyer) in
    pre-school an extra year.  As my sister says, it was great to be big
    fish in a little pond.  She made new friends in K.

    Our pre-school is a combination of special needs kids and
    'non-special-needs' kids.  Not sure if there is a good
    label.  I believe that the correct one is 'non-identified'.
    (not having an identified special need).

    This is the way that the state recommends special needs 
    programs be run....having non-identified kids in there
    provides good role models for the special needs kids.

    There is little difference between a 'special needs' program
    and any good pre-school program except that teachers are
    more highly trained in things like language development
    and various 'therapy' techniques.  The nurse will be in more
    often to deal with meds or other 'special needs' as required.
    There will be some specialists rotating through for things
    like OT.  Some kids may not be talking yet or have other
    problems that may require 1-1 attention now and then.

    At our town, I believe that the state provides the funding
    for the special needs program.  Maybe this was just a grant
    to start it and our town is now paying for it.  The other
    kids in the program pay a fee set by our school committee...basically
    a fee competitive with other similar programs in our area.
    The town is mandated to provide early intervention for the
    special needs kids at no charge.  The school could choose
    not to charge the other kids if it wished to.

    The curriculum?  The day is pretty structured....a 'circle time'
    during which the kids share ideas, sing songs, do various
    'exercies', and may 'learn' something like parts of the body.
    A lot of 'art' projects, a lot of 'free' play time, lots of blocks,
    dress up, etc areas around.
    bob

Problems with fine motor skills are unlikely to mean ADD/ADHD unless coupled with
other behavioral problems. I have a 12 year old daughter who received SPED 
services for fine motor problems through the 3rd grade. Today she's a B to B+
average 7th grader.  

Go through the screening and talk to the professionals both in the school 
district and in the current nursery school. Then let your gut be your guide. 

There are many issues that you have to weigh as a parent that affect your child. 
The most important are the social issues. Sometimes if a child is borderline
it's easier to send him to kindergarten and help him through it. In small
communities where "cliques" of kids are formed at very young ages it's much
harder on the child to be held back from his friends and he'll struggle with
that for a number of years. In larger communities there's less likelyhood
that he knows enough of his peers to make a difference. 

Remember that your child will get an education no matter which way you decide
to go. 

    We've been talking to our son's nursery school teacher about 
    whether to start him in kindergarten or first grade next year.
    While he shows all the signs of being intellectually ready for
    first, he would be among the youngest in age, and probably 
    overwhelmed socially and emotionally. For this reason we plan to
    start him in kindergarten in an open-curriculum program. His 
    teacher stressed that it's a lot easier to move a child up a year
    later than to put him back. She feels there is a positive effect on
    self-esteem in waiting, in giving children time to master their
    situations.          
    
    Lucy

If you read back over the replies here you will find a fairly common thread. I've
also found it to be common among other parents I speak to. Each child is a little
different in the way they handle the Kindergarten experience. Part of this has
to do with the way in which each child has experienced the world around them
in the previous 2-3 years. 

A number of years ago Holliston began a public Montessori program because it saw
a need to integrate "regular" education children with "special needs" students
we were required to service prior to Kindergarten. We run a 3-6 year old, a
6-9 year old, and a transitional program at the 4th grade level. 

After reading all of these concerns I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't the
way all school systems should be handling that transition from home to school.
I'm a strong believer in early childhood education. Learning patterns and
behaviors are established at a very young age but it's the emotional issues
and the socialization needs of these kids that can be really put aside in a
multi-age setting where they can all grow at their own pace. Over that 3 year
period they become comfortable with the school environment and the transition 
to the 6-9 age group always seems to be so much less traumatic than the usual
Kindergarten jitters (for both student and parent!).

I've often wondered why other public school systems haven't pursued this avenue
of learning.

    Mike, could you elaborate on this?

>A number of years ago Holliston began a public Montessori program
>because it saw a need to integrate "regular" education children with
>"special needs" students we were required to service prior to Kindergarten.
>We run a 3-6 year old, a 6-9 year old, and a transitional program
>at the 4th grade level.

    We also have a pre-school for 3 year and older 'pre-K' kids.  But
    it is not Montessori based.  Can kids continue with a Montessori
    education through elementary school?  How did you choose to do this?
    I've never heard of it before other than your school.  Were
    some parents concerned not to have a non-Montessori pre-school?
    Thanks
    bob

Bob,
	As my previous reply states, this was done essentially to save money
on SPED costs for 3 and 4 year olds. Holliston was also one of the first
suburban systems to institute pre-school options in a public school setting.

Holliston currently runs both the Montessori program and a traditional preschool
program. We charge tuition for non-special needs students and, at least so
I've been told, cheaper than most private pre-schools. 

Holliston's Montessori program has 3 age groupings. We have a 3-6 grouping and
6-9 grouping. Both of these use entirely standard Montessori methods and our 
staff are all Montessori trained. Our "traditional" structure is not standard
for most communities. Our elementary grades are Pre-school through grade 3. So,
in our structure full Montessori is implemented for all of the elementary years.
Our Middle school is grades 4-7. Grade 4 classes are "self-contained". By that 
I mean the children do not change classrooms each period. Grades 5-7 do. We
run a Montessori program for 9-10 year olds who will be going to the fifth grade
the following year. It is a transitional program to ensure the kids are able
to deal with the different structure and the curriculum is a mixture of 
traditional 4th grade style as well as Montessori style.  A standard Montessori
grouping at this level would be ages 9-12. There are public Montessori programs
in Midwestern states that run through the grade 6 level. 

As far as I know we run the only public Montessori program in New England.

Mike

    I'm a fan of the Montessori method because it allows for individual
    development while encouraging  "good citizenship". I wish more
    public systems could incorporate it...
    
    Lucy 

see note 73

Clay

    Clay,
    
    I have to disagree with your response to Carol about talking with her
    son (or the basenoter talking with her son).
    
    The teacher, and you, have _assumed_ that his short use of scissors is
    a symptom of undeveloped fine motor skills.  Maybe that's not the case.
    Maybe he's a lefty and doesn't have a good pair of lefty scissors, or
    maybe the scissors are pink and a friend told him they're for girls.
    Or some other reason that wouldn't occur to us, but would to a
    five-year-old.  It wouldn't hurt to ask, in the course of a
    conversation, what things he likes and doesn't like about school and
    why.
    
    I would also talk to him about the options being considered for
    school next year.   Staying in preschool does not have to be presented
    as a negative thing, but simply as one option.  We were considering
    changing Caileigh to private school next year and we talked with her
    (now in kindergarten) about the pros and cons of changing schools vs.
    staying in her current school.  It is _our_ decision, but her
    perspective certainly matters.  If nothing else, it will ensure that
    whatever decision you make will not come as a shock.
    
    -Tracy
    

re: .42

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.  I didn't say don't talk.  I said

>While it might be worthwhile to talk to him about why he doesn't like
>to use the scissors, I wouldn't put it in the context of its being a
>reason for not going to kindergarten.  The scissors thing is an 
>example, not a reason; fine motor control is the reason.

I don't think you can state quite as definitely as you do what the teacher
assumed.  I certainly don't assume that she based her assessment solely on
the dislike of using scissors.  Typically, it's one factor in many in
assessing the development of fine motor skills.  It's a quite frequently used
example though.

> It wouldn't hurt to ask, in the course of a conversation, what things he
> likes and doesn't like about school and why.

I agree completely, unless the topic of the conversation was the teachers
recommendation about kindergarten.  Then he might feel pressured into giving
the "right" answer, or pressured into "liking" using scissors when he really
doesn't, or might feel "stupid" because he's not yet dexterous with scissors.

I also agree completely that the child's feelings are important in making the
decision, but that the decision is ultimately the parents.

Clay

 

    What type of schedule does your town's public kindergarten follow?  
    
    In Auburn, Mass. (where I live), the kindergarteners go five half 
    days a week, swapping between morning and afternoon halfway through 
    the year.  Two years ago, the school committee tried to change the
    schedule to two full days and one half day per week in order to save
    money on busses, but parental uproar put a stop to it.  They're trying
    to make the change again this year, but they seem to be trying to do it
    more quietly.  They are also considering alternating two- and three-day
    weeks.
    
    I would be interested in hearing your opinions of or experiences with
    this type of scheduling.
    
    BTW, for Auburn parents, there is a meeting at the Auburn library at
    10:30 tomorrow morning. 
    
    -Tracy
    

    I think that Acton Mass has what you describe -- half days, and
    switching at the half year point.
    
    I've no personal experience with this.
    
    Beryl

    I put my daughter in a private full-day kindergarten to avoid all this
    nonsense.  Seems to me that school departments stay up late at night 
    devising ever more convoluted schedules to torture working parents.
    
    If *I* ran the zoo, parents would be mailed a postcard (parents to pay
    return postage) asking preference of AM or PM (*all year*).  The half
    day which got the larger response would be reduced by random selection
    of postcards: a "sorry,-you-lose" lottery.  At the very least this
    would dispense with the "reset everything to zero and scramble for
    daycare AGAIN" exercise in the middle of the school year.
    
    Our town has a program for daycare during the non-K half of the day,
    and it swaps your child to the other half when the Kindergarden swaps,
    but there's limited enrollment, controlled by lottery.  I may not win
    every lottery I enter, so if I'm going to be tossing the dice for child 
    care, I'd rather lose by getting the wrong half of the day for a year, 
    than lose by getting *no* town program and an unworkable, whimsical 
    "everybody switch!" schedule.
    
    Leslie

>    If *I* ran the zoo, parents would be mailed a postcard (parents to pay
>    return postage) asking preference of AM or PM (*all year*).  The half

I agree that no switching mid-year would be best, but I'm not sure that
asking preferences is possible unless the parents are willing to provide
the transporatation.  Otherwise, honoring preferences would mean that the
schoolbuses would have to travel through the entire town two times for the
kindergarteners instead of each half once.

                                                Tracy

    Anybody have any words of wisdom on kindergartens in Worcester, MA? I
    need to sign my son up for the 95/96 term, and there are way too many
    options!  I'm going to the Parent Info center next week, but could use
    some first-hand comments from users - where did you send your child,
    what did you like/dislike, what's the emphasis (science, arts, etc.).
    Sarah 

Hi,

We have the opportunity to put our daughter into either an advanced 
kindergerten class or the normal class.  Kristine will be 5 years and
2 months old in September, and her pre-K teachers has recommended her
for the advanced class.  The advanced class meets from 9:00-3:00 while 
the regular class is 9:00-12:00.  Apparently the advanced class is a 
bit more structured in addition to meeting more hours.  Often, they 
try bringing in some of the first grade reading primers toward the end
of the year, etc.  One of the questions we have is this - if our daughter
goes to the advanced class and learns some of the things that will be 
covered in first grade, is she likely to get too bored in first grade? 
On the other hand, she already can do many of the things that they will 
be doing in the regular class, so that might be uninteresting for her.  
She seems to be one of the more advanced children in her pre-K class this
year.  Does anyone have an experience with this type of thing?

Thanks,


           --Cida

Thank you to those that sent me mail messages in response to my
ealier note (.49).  It help us to make our decision.

  --Cida

    
I have a kindergarten dilemma:

Jason will be 6 in September; we have planned to have him attend public
kindergarten in our town (Shrewsbury, MA).

The town offers two full-day, tuitioned kindergarten programs - one traditional
and one a multi-age grouping.  I entered Jason in lotteries for both programs.
We were told that 1 in 4 children are selected for the programs as demand is
high.   To my surprise, Jason has the opportunity to attend the full-day
kindergarten program.  Now I need to decide if that's the right choice.

The reason that I signed him up for the program was that he will be among the
oldest of the kindergartners and also has two years of preschool/pre-K behind
him; I felt he was "ready" and needed the extra stimulation of the full-day
program.  This is compounded by the fact that he does not have like-age
playmates at his babysitters.   In addition, the full-day program has the
same schedule throughout the year (not the typical flip mornings to afternoons
- and vice versa - mid-year.)

My concern is:

I think (need to check on this) that full-day kindergartners ride the bus with
the older children both ways (1/2 day kids ride one way with the older kids).
I'm concerned that he'll be exposed to things (language, behaviour, etc) I'd
rather not have him exposed to if at all possible.   I'm also concerned that
when they combine the kindergartners with the older kids that they end up
spending a lot more time on the bus.  Are these valid concerns?


Does anyone have any experience with full-day kindergarten programs either in
Shrewsbury or elsewhere?  Pros?  Cons?


Thanks,
Carol

>                      <<< Note 139.51 by VIVE::STOLICNY >>>
>                  -< Another full-day kindergarten question >-

    Are your only concerns the bus?

    Sounds like going with 1/2 day will cut the bus exposure
    in half, but not eliminate it.

    I'ld look at other things....quality of teacher, his ability
    to be attentive all day (need for nap), who else is in the class,
    etc. etc.

    
    The bus is the only concern that I can articulate at 
    this point  8^).
    
    I'm not concerned about the attention or alertness.
    This child gave up napping well before 3 years old -
    has taken exactly three naps in the past 3 years (when
    he was sick).   I'm assuming that they have free/play
    time and that they don't expect them to sit at a desk
    for 6 hours straight (another thing to check).
    
    I don't know how to find out who the teacher will be
    and/or how to get the "best" one.   The note we received
    specifically called out that there is no teacher selection
    allowed...  I'm new at this - is teacher selection a 
    possibility for most people?  How do you find out about
    the teachers?
    
    Carol

    
    Oh, one thing that I forgot to mention is that I 
    believe that the full-day program was designed to
    accomodate children with special needs/those who
    could use some extra help.  The majority of the
    children do not have special needs.  I have a 
    concern that the pace of the class may be slower
    than the 1/2 day class; but is that bad?  The
    curriculum is supposed to be the same.
    
    Carol

    While I still have 2 more years before I have to worry about
    kindergarten (gulp, only 2!) the town we live in, Norfolk, recently had
    a big overhaul in their kindergarten program.
    
    From what I've read, the town offered 2 kindergarten programs: 5
    half-days or 3 full days, with the 5 half-days having the greater
    enrollment, supposedly due to easier daycare arrangements, etc.  The 
    kids did ride the bus with the older kids (but only 1st and 2nd graders).
    
    The children that were in the full day class did get nap/rest breaks,
    not sure about the half-day kids.  Although, when I was in kindergarten
    (mumble years ago) it was half-days and I do remember having a nap/rest
    period.
    
    The town, for next year, will combine both programs into 5 slightly longer
    than previous half-days, switching mornings and afternoons mid-year.  I
    gather the reason for doing this is that the full day kids were getting
    gym, art and music classes that the half-day kids were not, since the
    half-day kids were getting the required schooling with no time for the
    other stuff.  Parents were getting upset that one group was being
    offered extra "rounding" classes while the others were not.  So, now
    all kids will go half-days and with the extra hour receive art, gym and
    music.
    
    I guess I would call the principal of the school your son will be
    attending and ask about the difference, if any, between the 2 sessions
    and also inquire about the teachers, too.
    
    Good luck,
    Susan
    
    

    
    I don't know much about kindergarden as I have about 4 years to go, but
    why would a 6 year old be put in kindergarden opposed to going to first
    grade?  
    
    I am just curious
    
    

    In Shrewsbury (and many other towns in Mass.), the child has to be 6
    years old *on or before* September 1.
    
    Also, there are "readiness tests" (for um... K or 1st, I can't
    remember) which may determine that the child would do better socially
    or academically if they wait a year to enter whichever grade it is.  (I
    remember a discussion in here about a criterion in one of the tests:
    the child is asked to draw a circle, and assuming they do draw a
    circle, the pass/fail is based on whether the child drew it clockwise
    or counterclockwise!!!!)
    
    Leslie

    re: .56
    
    Shrewsbury has an absolute cut-off the allows entry to kindergarten
    only to children who are 5 on or before September 1 (or August 31st,
    can't remember which).   Jason turned 5 on September 9th; so just
    missed the cut-off. 
    
    Carol

    
    
    My daughter is in full day kindergarten in Clinton at a catholic school.  
    She rides the bus with older  kids - up to grade 7.  The older kids sit 
    in the back of the bus and the kindergarteners have to sit towards the
    front.  I haven't had any problems with her being with the older kids.
    
    They also have a rest time after lunch.  I'ld check to see if the
    school does this.  I find that Breanne does get really tired by the end
    of the week.  I think the rest time really helps.  She does fall asleep
    sometimes.  
    
    Kirsten
      

    Although Holden does not have full day kindergarten, the
    kindergarteners do ride the bus with the rest of the school (grades
    1-5) either in the morning or the afternoon, depending on the
    kindergarten shift they attend.
    
    Clearly there are language "learnings" that we encountered last year
    when my son was in kindergarten and shared some of his new words! But
    what it did was prompt a discussion in our family about words we hear
    and words that we use in our family.  Also, the school was pretty
    careful about loading the kindergarteners up front so they didn't miss
    their stop.
    
    I guess I'm of the mindset that they're going to hear the language
    etc., whether in kindegarten or out in the street, so to speak. How we
    deal with it is our ongoing challenge as parents (gulp).
    
    best of luck in  your decision.
    Lynn
    

    
    Thanks for the responses - each gave me something new to think
    about.   I did get a pamphlet from the school on the full-day
    program which cleared up some of my questions.
    
    The daily schedule includes a rest period after lunch and 2 
    recess periods; so there is plenty of free time.  The curriculum 
    is the same as the 1/2 day program; allowing  more time to 
    explore a subject from different angles, more time for enrichment 
    activities (field trips, computers, music, etc).   The ratio
    of teachers or aides to students is supposed to be no less 
    than 1 to 12.   
    
    I think we've pretty much decided to go with the full-day program.   
    I explained the two options (1/2 vs full) to Jason last night and 
    he was really excited about the full-day program.        
    
    I do need to talk to the person who coordinates the bussing.
    I hope to learn that the kindergarten kids are kept in the
    front of the bus as others have mentioned and that the total
    time spent on the bus won't be excessive.  
    
    Thanks for the input!
    cj/

    Wow -- sure wish Boxboro had a full day program.  What I went thru to
    get my kids to their day care providers was a real hassle; fortunately
    my manager worked with me when necessary.  
    
    In our town they sit the kindergarteners up front on the busses as
    well.  Still doesn't keep them from hearing things, but sooner or later
    they'd get exposed to it anyway.
    
    sandy
    

    I'm trying to investigate when is the best time for a child to start
    kindergarden.  In our town, Westford, MA, a child must be 5 by
    September 1st.  My daughter will be 5 next December 3rd which is after
    the cutoff to start kindergarden next Spetember. 
    
    Emily is currently in the Pre-K class at her daycare center and her
    teachers tell us she'll have no problems in their private kindergarden
    class next year.  They do not have a strict birhtday cutoff as does
    Westford.  From what other parents have told me, their kindergarden is
    much more challenging then the Westford public kindergarden so quality
    isn't an issue.  (Her younger brother is also at the center so she will
    most likely go to their kindergarden, regardless of when she goes, just
    to put off the afterschool daycare problem another year).
    
    Emily is obviously intellectually advanced for her age but socially I
    would say she acts her age.  At first we decided she would definately
    go to their private kindergarden next year at 4 3/4 but now I'm
    starting to have real second thoughts.  On the one hand I don't want
    her to be bored repeating the Pre-K program and on the other hand I
    don't want her to get picked on because she's the youngest in the
    class.
    
    So is social equivalence or intellectual equivalence more important in
    the primary grades?
    
    Carol

    What is Westford's policy for starting 1st grade? Is kindergarten
    a pre-requisite? Is there an age requirement regardless of whether
    a child has attended kindergarten?
    
    Speaking only as a former child who was faced with the choices you've
    put foward, these questions are important.
    
    My parents sent me to a private kindergarten because I was very ready.
    The town in which we lived [admittedly far, far away from Westford]
    required kindergarten before 1st grade, but also required that all 1st
    graders be 6 by December 31st. I didn't qualify. So I went on to a
    private first grade as well. [By 2nd grade, the schools had to bow to
    the inevitable and take me, but we'd move on ... I digress]
    
    I would have been CRUSHED to see all of my classmates from kindergarten
    go on to 1st grade while I did another year where I was.
    
    Everyone is unique, but my own experience of being younger and smaller
    didn't become a problem until I was at the junior high level. I could
    keep up with my classmates emotionally, intellectually, and socially. I
    couldn't run as fast or reach as high, though. [And then I stopped
    growing and topped out at 5' anyway ... no matter how old I got]
    
      Annie

    Westford probably has an age cutoff for first grade, too, so Emily 
    will probably have to repeat *something*, whether it's Pre-K now, your
    daycare's K, or Westford's K.
    
    You say "her [daycare center] teachers tell us she'll have no problems
    in their private kindergarten"--is that only with relation to entrance
    age minimum, or is that their assessment of her social development?  If
    they're giving her the green light socially, I'd probably try their K
    group with the understanding that she may not be ready and may go back
    to pre-K this year.  If you do one year of the center's K, some of her
    classmates will be going into Westford's first grade next year (I
    assume the center is near or in Westford) and Westford might insist
    that Emily wait a year, so she'd feel exiled from her friends.  So,
    I'd plan for 2 years of K at the center, then move to 1st grade with
    her (then-) peers.
    
    Leslie

    
    re .0
    
    My daughter is one of the youngest in her class, born August 1.
    She was intellectual advanced, tall for her age and was quite 
    mature since she was the only child. But even so, from K thru 2, 
    she had to catch up socially. There were incidents involving other 
    children when the teacher expected her to behave more maturally. 
    Now, she's in 5th grade, she is 10, but most of her good friends 
    are 11 and 12 and they are going thru puberty. Socially, she is 
    doing very well, but not without effort. We have to remind her 
    on and off that she shouldn't compare her physcial development
    with her friends. 
    
    Each child is different, YMMV.
    
    Eva
    

  I have 2 kids in the exact same situation as you - in fact my Emilie was
born on December 4.

  My son Erik is born in November - he too missed the kindergarten cut-off.
I was kind of glad because I did not feel he was ready yet socially.  So he
continued in a center in a pre-K/K room.  What this meant was that some of 
the kids left for part of the day to attend public kindergarten.  After half
a year of this Erik became quite unhappy.  He was very jealous of the kids
that got to leave.  So we moved him to a private kindergarten where all the
kids stayed for the full day.

  In fall of 95 we had to decide whether to continue the private K or enter
public schools.  In our town he was now old enough for kindergarten but not
first grade.  We opted for public kindergarten and after school care.  This
has worked out pretty well.  Erik is one of the older kids but not the oldest.

   The part that makes me most glad about opting for the public kindergarten
is that Erik had a VERY difficult transition to public school.  The class size
is large, he has to ride the bus, be responsible for his lunch etc.  For Erik
I'm glad he made that transition at K rather than first grade.  He has also
made friends from our community.  

    Our daughter is now attending the private kindergarten and will attend
public kindergarten next year.  


ELizabeth

I have never understood why parents would want their
kids to start school any earlier than they have to.

We have friends who (correctly) feel their daughter is
very advanced intellectually.  So they pushed her into
a private Kindergarden so she can start 1st grade a year
early.  I feel very sorry for her.  She is the smallest
person in the class (even smaller than my daughter
who weighs 32 lbs at 6 years old).  She stands all alone
in the playground and sucks her thumb.  they have her playing
soccer with the 1st/2nd graders and she hasn't a clue.

And she knows it.  She is smart.  She can do the work.  but
she has no real friends.

It smacks of red shirting your kids, but why start them any earlier
than you have to?
bob

For what it's worth, the prevailing educational philosophy right now is to
keep the bright kids with their own age group, and find ways to challenge
them in the classroom.  So my 2nd-grade son is with kids his own age, but
has tailored spelling, math, and reading work to keep him sufficiently
challenged.  So far, it seems to be working well for him.  He loves school
and makes good progress in all areas of schoolwork.

One of my brothers skipped a grade (2nd), and thus was always a year younger
than his classmates.  That didn't work out very well.  One of my sisters,
younger than him, could have skipped a grade, but my parents saw how badly
that worked out for Keith, so they didn't skip Julie.  That didn't work out
very well either.  (sigh)  My conclusion is that the extra-bright kids don't
quite fit *anywhere*, so it's pretty much a coin toss whether to match them
by age or by intellectual ability.  Either way, you need to put in extra effort
to deal with the area(s) in which they are mismatched with their classmates.

						cheryl

    I am a read-only noter - but your question really relates to me.
    My now 17 year old daughter is in college.  She was very ready
    for kindergarten, so she went to a private school for the first
    six years.  
    
    We did not encounter any problems well until high school.
    She was just 12 and President of her class as a freshmam, she
    is very social, and made upper classmen friends right away. 
    We were in shock when she was invited for "home-coming" dance by 
    a senior with a car.  This was just the beginning of many head-
    aches to come.  The age difference is a big issue in high school.
    Until now she complains, that she was the last one to get her
    drivers license.  Now in college, she is doing very well, and
    our differences are behind us, but she still mentions that
    she doesn't have an ID to go to some clubs.
    
    In retrospective, the only thing that we would change if we had
    to do this again, would be not to have started her in kinder
    at the age of 4.  We would have avoided many headaches.
    
    I hope this helps you in making a decision.  Teen years are
    quite difficult without the added pressure of always being
    the youngest.
    
    Best of luck with your children.
    
    Lily
    
    

    To add to the "crowd"...my youngest nephew went to kindergarten at the
    age of 4 ( he turned 5 that October).  Of my sisters three kids, he was
    the only one to have problems settling into school both socially AND
    academically (although he was enrolled early because of his very high
    test scores).  My sister has said on more than one occasion that she
    thinks he would have had an easier transition to school if he had spent
    that extra year in preschool.
    
    My two oldest boys are always among the oldest in their class as they
    are both November birthdays - they didn't start kindergarten until they
    were almost 6.  My youngest is an April birthday - he is among the
    youngest in his first grade class (won't be 7 til April).  I notice a
    big difference in his maturity level and his brothers at the same age.
    
    As stated in an earlier reply (or two), schools these days have
    programs for kids who are more advanced than their classmates.  Your
    daughter could benefit from these programs and be at the right age
    socially and emotionally instead of trying to "catch up" with her older
    classmates.
    
    JMHO,
    
    Linda

    We may be dealing with a similar situation next fall.  Russell will
    turn 6 at the end of the summer, about 1 month before the 1st grade cut
    off.  Intellctually, he will probably be ready.  Socially and (most
    important, in my mind) emotionally, I don't think he'll be ready.  Most
    of the kids in his kindergarten are almost 1 yr older than him.  N.H.
    has some sort of transition/readiness program for kids, and I think my
    son is a prime canidate.  But I have no idea how I'm going to deal with
    "why aren't I in the same class" issues for the first year. If I had a
    choice, I would have left him in pre-k this year, where he still had
    lots of friends.  Then he'd wind up in 1st grade with the kids he went
    to kindergarten in.  Overall, I'd rather my son be one of the older
    kids, rather than the youngest.
    
    	marianne

    My 7 year old started kindergarten at 5 yrs 3 months.  He was one of
    the youngest kids in his class, and had some major maturity problems. 
    Intellectually, he was ready for the learning.  Emotionally, he wanted
    to play all day, like he did in pre-school.  Even though kindergarten
    is (still) very playful learning, he knew it was work.  In his old
    school system (K-1), they get *very* serious about education in 1st
    grade.  Lots of creative methods, mind you, not old fashioned, but very
    serious. Even in Kindergarten, they demand independence, responsibility, 
    etc., from kids who are not yet 6 years old.  There were still some 
    maturity problems in first grade, but those seem to have resolved
    themselves this year in 2nd grade.  Of course, we are in a new school
    system this year, where they use creative teaching methods, but have
    different standards of maturity for the kids.  I often felt that, as
    great as Joe's 1st and 2nd grade teachers were, the expectations set by
    the school were far too high for such young children.  They're kids,
    not small grown ups.  As such, a 1st grader cannot be expected to
    remember *on their own* to grab the homework to bring to school every
    a.m., to sit still during lectures or films, to remember the full
    instructions for an assignment the day after they were given.  Joe's
    new teacher understands this, is great with the kids.  His teacher is a
    young man, I'd guess about 25 or so, teaching a combined 2nd/3rd grade. 
    Among other things, he doesn't believe in "homework" per se; the kids
    are responsible to get a day's work done in a day, period.  If that
    day's work is not completed by the end of the day, then they must
    complete it as homework.  Otherwise, there is none.  He feels that they
    are too young to go to school from 8:25 to 3:00 and *then* do another
    45 minutes work at home, too!
    
    My point here, which is getting somewhat lost, is that I would
    carefully investigate how your public *and* private schools measure
    maturity, what their expectations are of kindergarteners, 1st graders,
    etc.  If Wakefield is anything like the progressive school Joe was in
    back in California, I would certainly hold a 4.75 year old over to
    start kindergarten in public school the following year.  You also want
    to make sure that the private school will teaching a true kindergarten,
    if you decide to go that route, not a low-level first grade.  In other
    words, protect your child from boredom, by ensuring that she won't be
    doing exactly the same thing two years in a row.
    
    M.
    

    I have two summer babies - one born in late July, the other early
    August. The cutoff in my community is August 31.
    
    It is an individual decision whether to keep your child out of
    kindergarten (and subsequently first grade) or have them go, assuming
    they make the cutoff date.
    
    In my eldest son's case, he seemed intellectually and socially ready.
    He does complain, though, now that he's in second grade, that he's the
    youngest in his class. 
    
    I have a coworker whose daughter had a September birthday. He and his
    wife chose to have his daughter attend private kindergarten and first
    grade and then go into public school for second grade.
    
    I have observed others who wait the whole extra year, and their child
    is now the eldest (and sometimes largest) child in the class. My son
    has a friend in second grade who is fully a year older than my son; the
    friend complains that he stayed back a year and all his real friends
    are in the grade ahead of him (despite his parents careful explanations
    that he never stayed back, just started at a different time than kids
    his age).
    
    I'm in this dilemma too for my 4 yr old, who will be 5 in August. I am
    going to rely on my observations and gut feeling, as well as input from
    his preschool teachers and his daycare provider.  And hope for the best
    :-)
    
    good luck,
    

    Some replies back, there was a question as to why a parent would 
    even consider starting their child early...  This is a valid 
    question, that I'm not sure has been directly addressed.

    For me, I have two children who are almost three years apart (Nov '91 
    and Sept '94).  Given the current guidelines, they'll probably end up 
    only two years apart in school.  So, we'll run into both the "oldest 
    kid in class" and the "youngest kid in class" issues.

    We HAVE considered the possibility of sending my son early... and it's 
    something that we have, so far, decided NOT to do.  I want him to enjoy 
    being a kid as long as possible.  However, to answer the question of WHY, 
    here are some thoughts...

    I expect that since most of us are in a professional environment, we 
    are all reasonably intelligent, and have pretty smart kids, too.  My 
    son has been able to pick up on many skills early.  He's comfortable 
    in social situations, and physically coordinated.  He has many friends 
    who will be going to kindergarden next year, and I'm sure he could keep 
    up, and even excel.

    However, that's not the only factor that I've considered.  He is ALSO 
    tall for his age (he's an inch taller than the next kid in his class, 
    and taller than many kids a grade ahead).  

    So... although, as I mentioned before, I've decided NOT to start him 
    early, I DO wonder how he's going to feel when he finds he's getting 
    the school work done faster than many of his classmates, AND he's 
    taller than most of them, AND two of his best friends are in the 
    grade ahead of him.

    Peggy

    
    I think that early childhood educators are accustomed to having
    children at all ends of the spectrum in the academic skills
    area.  I would hope that the curriculum can be easily adapted 
    to meet the needs of the individual child.   Maybe that's 
    wishful thinking.   It's my understanding that social readiness 
    (seperation from mom & dad, willingness to ride the bus, ability
    to tend to personal hygiene, etc) and willingness/ability to learn 
    are the key skills for beginning kindergarten. 
    
    My son started kindergarten in the public school this year having
    missed last year's cut-off by 10 days.  I think he would have done
    fine last year; but is definitely more able to concentrate on projects,
    etc. for long periods of time.  He has the opportunity to be a
    leader - which he may not have had as the youngest in the class.
    Also, I think it is very empowering - and a self-esteem booster -
    to be able to help other children with their work.
    
    We thought about having him attend the kindergarten program at the
    preschool he went to, but like the previous noter decided to let
    him enjoy being a kid as long as possible.  We were fortunate that
    he didn't have friends that were near his age that would be a year
    ahead.   It seems like all the park district activities (soccer, 
    t-ball, etc) follow the school cut-offs for their groupings so 
    he plays soccer with kids that go to the same kindergarten.
    
    Carol            

    i waited with Carrie (septemeber 25th)  I could have challenged the cut
    off date (9-15) but felt she would benefit from a another year at home. 
    I am glad I waited.  She was more ready emotionally, closer in size to
    class mates,  less anxious and while teachers now have a problem
    keeping her challenged, she has the maturity to deal with this.  (I
    don't think she would have if I hadn't waited the year.)  One of our
    neighbors "successfully" challenged the age but Chelsea has had
    problems fitting in, and mastering some things that she clearly would
    have no problems with if she had had the extra year.  (They refused to
    allow her to be held back an extra year in kindergarten, as the teacher
    recommended so she would be more able to succeed in further classes.)  
    
    My sister started a year behind me (two years difference) and while she
    was academically ready, the teen years created havoc for her, as a
    previous noter ran into.  
    
    meg
    
    

I live in Boxboro which has a 2.5 hour kindergarten.
Every working parents nightmare...

Acton has recently started a full day kindergarten
with parents' financial support. It is a choice 
program where if you wish to enroll your child in
full day kindergarten you pay a certain amount of
money. I talked to a couple of teachers and also 
to some parents and it seems that the feedback 
there is extremely positive. 

The children are very relaxed, day is not rushed, 
they have more field trips and elongated ones.
Children basically spend their entire day with the
same adults, same kids and under same rules.

I am trying to get something like this started for
Boxboro children, also. Boxboro school building 
has recently had a major extension done and the 
class rooms for full day kindergarten are already 
built in.

My question is to people who have kids going to 
full day kindergarten. How do they like it?
Has anyone participated in getting something like
this started. If so, how did you go about it?

If you are from Boxboro and are interested in this 
please contact me. 
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

Hi

My correct email address in [email protected].
For some reason ? has been added in the original note.


masooma
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    Are you aware that Boxboro is most likely going to have an extended day
    program next year?  Call the Community Ed Dept at the high school --
    maybe they could do a part of the program specifically geared towards
    kindergarteners.
    
    Both of my kids have gone thru the Boxboro system, one's now in 6th and
    one in 2nd.  Kindergarten was a hassle -- esp since my daycare was in
    Acton.  I basically had to take care of the transportation to daycare
    before/after school -- for my oldest, I did the mid-day change myself
    [fortunately I had a flexible manager].  For the 2nd child, I used a
    taxi service -- started with the Acton/Maynard Cab, then switched to
    Smart Rides.  The past few years there's been one section that stays at
    the same time all year [no mid-year switch] and that's the one we had
    the 2nd time -- made transportation easy.
    
    I agree, 2.5 hours is a nuisance, both for a working parent as well as
    for a child who's used to a full day of daycare. I know they're talking
    about a full day kindergarten, but it won't happen next year -- it
    takes time -- and money.  Our taxes are going to high enough for a
    while!
    
    Sandy

    Who decides 1/2 or full day kindergarten? The community school system?
    My region (Central Mass) has only 1/2 kindergarten. I can't imagine
    parents being able to get a full day instituted, what with building
    size and classroom constraints. Good going for Acton!
    

    Worcester has full-day kindergarten.  After going full-day to
    preschool, it would seem pretty odd to switch to half-days  for
    kindergarten : )
    By the way, my son loves it.  Sometimes he complains that the day was
    too short and he didn't get a chance to do "this" or "that".  He does
    occassionally take a nap during rest time, but that usually signals me
    that he's coming down with a cold : (
    Sarah

thanks to all of you, who have send me replies.

In response to Sandy's note, actually the way it works in 
Acton is that the program is optional. Preants who particiapte in it finance
the afternoon program themselves through the Community Ed. THe cost is around 
$2000. It is much cheaper than if you send your kids to Boxboro Children Center
for after school, Their charges for a full day - 2.5 hour kindergarten is 
$525 a month + additional $50/month for holidays and who wants to send their
kids in that overly crowded place anyways.
 
We are fornuate in Boxboro that our new school building already has
the extra rooms for a future all day kindergarten. So all in all, there will 
be no increase in taxes.

Also, as of now there is no plan for an all day kindergarten in Boxboro
until parents do something about it. I have already spoken to the principal 
and members of the school committee. 

In acton the program is so popular that they they have a long waiting list
and will not accept children from any other town.

I am writing a letter to the editor in the 
next week's Beacon edition. I know we can do it. I just need enough 
parental support. Both the principal and the school committtee mambers
are supportive of the idea. With enough support we can bring it up in the
next school committee meeting in March. 
So please pass the word around and ask 
interested parents to contact me.
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]