Conference moira::parenting

    Well, this is just my opinion but... 7 1/2 yrs. old is definately old
    enough to understand the rules and be able to follow them.  I don't see 
    where the punishment was all that rough (time out on the couch).  He knew 
    her rules and broke them.  Does the daycare provider have other children 
    there so that she can't leave to make sure your child gets off the bus?  
    How long did she wait for him to make it known he was back from school?
    From what information you've already given, I don't think she was being
    unreasonable.  I've punished my own son for the very same thing.
    
    Marie

I agree ... I would want (and expect!) the sitter to "know" my kid got "safely"
off the bus ... part of the services I pay for ... make sure my kid arrives
safely and know "immediately" if s/he doesn't and take action.

I had a similar problem with our first homecare provider in that she, too,
depended on the older kids to watch out for the younger kids (while she
got her tasks/domestics done) and many times was too "busy" to know what
really was going on (until something really got out of control) ... and often
then, the kid(s) paid the consequences ... she never seemed to discipline
herself, but rather it was always the "kid"(s) fault.

I'm sorry, but I DO expect my sitter to be in control and responsible ... that
is the service I am paying for.  Even under careful supervision, stuff
happens, but boy does stuff REALLY happen when the supervision slacks off!

I wonder how long it would have taken her to discover your child had NOT
gotten off the bus?

In Shrewsbury (MA), the school bus driver is not allowed to let a kindergartener
(and possibly first grader) off the bus without a parent/guardian "physically"
waiting.  Our neighborhood is like an extended family ... so we all watch out
for the bus and kid(s) ... and if for ANY REASON a parent isn't present, we
keep the child (usually only a few seconds/minutes) before the parent does
arrive (and I've always been called and "warned" that there might be a problem
... so the parent(s) just doesn't "show up", but rather has notified another
parent or two to cover for her).  Young kids are NOT allowed to leave the 
bus "unattended" and "go their merry way".  I'm sure at "some age" this is 
allowed, but hopefully not at 4-6 or 7 years of age.

Yeah ... I'd be upset if I were you!

Some daycare centers/learning centers pick the kids up at school, do headcounts
and then deliver them to the daycare center.  Two (of the many benefits of
a learning center/daycare environment) ... teachers/instructors are not "busy"
doing domestics/chores insteading of tending the kids and secondly, the center
is probably going to be more responsible and concerned about headcounts and
transporting kids safely from school to daycare.  I see an awful lot of young
kids getting on/off school buses unattended and "walking" home (wherever that
might be).  It bothers me.  If I can't be there, I want "someone" to be there
for me ... and I'm more than happy to help another mother, if I can.

My two cents.

Dottie

    What bothers me the most (I forgot to mention this) is that she pays
    no attention to the kids.  Donny is usually very good about letting
    her know what is going on.  As for the sitter and the punishment, I 
    feal that she should have talked to him first, then if it happened
    again, punish him.  She is not understanding by any means.  She jumps
    right into punishment role regardless of the situation.  And from what
    I can see the other kids (roughly 5) that she sits for get away with
    murder.  She never watches the kids.  She sends them out to play or
    over to one of the neighbors houses, then proceeds to do he housework.
    What kind of sitter is that???  She never listens to what they have to
    say.  Well, that is enough of my unloading.  Any ideas about what to
    do with the sitter will be greatly appreciated.

    
    I don't think what she did in this instance was wrong, I agree with .1
    in that regard.  There are other problems with this sitter which extend
    beyond this one incident and I think you may want to reconsider your
    situation with regards to the other reasons.  
    
    BTW-There are good and bad center and private situations.  The reason I
    want to say this is because a previous note is biased to the center
    situation. which may be correct for them.  A whole part of the
    population shouldn't be condemned just because of one bad experience. 
    I have heard of many a bad situation with centers as well as home
    situations.

    Sounds like you are unhappy with the sitter and need to find something
    else.  For a child that age, it is difficult.  I have a 7 year old who
    luckily goes to an after school program at the local Y.  Not all
    daycare centers do pick-ups and I found that my son wanted to be with
    more kids his age than little pre-schoolers.  That is my reason for
    opting for a service that specialized in school aged kids.
    
    If you think she has too many kids, understnad that the legal limit for
    Massachusetts is 6 (no more than 2 under the age of 2) - that's full
    and part-time.  If she is going to have more, she needs an assistant. 
    If the kids are not within her property then she is in the wrong. 
    (Maybe her neighbor should be licensed since it's her property being
    used for the daycare 8^)...)
    
    Summer is coming - I'd definately look for something better for your
    son.  Hopefully you can find something local that can offer you choices
    and him lots of activities!
    
    -sandy
    

From the description in .3 I don't understand why your son is there right now?
If this is true she is unfit to be in the job and it's your responsibility to 
find him adequate care.  Even if it's not all true and some of it is your
perception of her, your son will sense your feelings about her and the
situation is still unhappy for him.  Time to find a new sitter - NOW.

    Sounds like your concern about the bus incident is somewhat tempered by
    your perceptions of her as a provider on the whole. *If* she were a
    good provider (I'll take your word for the problems), and the
    situation were the same with regards to the bus, I would say she was
    definitely justified. Sorry. 7.5 is absolutely old enough to know you
    check in with the responsible person. If she has other children to
    watch, it is likely not always possible to be where the bus is at
    exactly the moment it lets kids off (even assuming she is very
    efficient and does a superb job). We have 4 kids, and you simply cannot
    be everywhere at once, and you often cannot be exactly where you want
    at a given moment. We don't have the bus problem, since we homeschool,
    but our 6.5 year old, 4.75 year old, and 3 year old are allowed to go
    between the neighbor's house (one house in between) and ours without
    actual supervision. Anywhere else, they must ask. When they come in the
    house to stay in, or for an extended period, they are expected to check
    in, so my wife (or I, if I'm home) know they're in, and don't look
    outside for them if she (I) needs them. This has happened. My wife has
    been in doing laundry with both washer and dryer running, and didn't
    hear kid come in and go upstairs. She then went nuts yelling for him
    outside, and not finding him.
    
    7.5 yr olds can be capable of great deals of responsiblity if we allow
    it, and trust them with it. Along with responsibility comes
    accountability, though. I would punish for first infractions... it is a
    serious enough thing to experience the panic that comes with being
    unsure of your child's whereabouts, to warrant it!
    
    If the issue is bigger than this though, such as her overall fitness as
    a provider, do make a change to something you can be secure and
    comforable with. That is very important.
    
    --dave--
           

    I don't think it's too much to ask of a 7 1/2 year old to check in as
    soon as he gets home/sitter's/whatever.  BUT.  That should not be the
    sitter's only headcount maintenance procedure!  I agree with Dottie
    that the sitter should be watching for the bus and making sure she sees
    him get off it.  If he doesn't check in with her in, say, 5 minutes,
    then she can go chase him down (and couch time doesn't seem an
    unreasonable punishment).
    
    If the bus doesn't come, or if it comes and he doesn't get off it, then
    it's all-points-bulletin time.
    
    I agree with most noters here, sounds like this is just the latest in a
    series of unsatisfactory scenarios with the sitter, and I would say
    start looking for someone more responsible.
    
    Leslie

    
    In this day and age, I believe that the adults need to be more
    responsible when it comes to children!!!  Being 7 years old and being
    responsible for yourself is just down right wrong.  I believe that the
    sitter should have been there when he got off the bus.  My sister is a
    daycare provider she takes care of at least 4-5 kids a day.  My
    daughter (13 months) goes there and she also has a 6 month old too! 
    Anyway she needs to take her 9 year old daughter to school everyday and
    pick her up.  She therefore loads all the kids in the car two in
    carseats and the others in seatbelts!  She does this everyday and
    doesn't expect her 9 year old to be responsible for herself!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Just my .02 cents!
    
    

    
    
    warning rathole:
    
    So at what age do you decide a child should become responsible for
    themselves?  I believe it's a learning process which starts
    (practically) from the time their born.  In fact, I recently read an
    article which says that prior to this century, there was no such thing
    as "adolesents".  Children went from Children to Adult.  Once a child
    turned about 10 they were expected to work just like an adult, which
    included having children themselves.  Imagine that?  And now we've
    gotten to a point where we aren't sure if a 7 1/2 year old can get off
    a bus by themselves???
    
    Of course, if I go back to my own childhood and school, (we're talking
    the 60's here...) I really did walk 1 1/2 miles to school in the
    morning, home for lunch (which we made ourselves because both my
    parents worked), back to school and home again.  This started in first
    grade.  I think we were pretty capable of taking care of ourselves.
    
    It makes me angry that parents today aren't willing to give some
    responsibility to their children.
    
    I know things aren't as safe as they once were.  And I also feel that a
    lot of that has to do with wide spread publicity of these kooks in the
    world.  However, I'd really prefer to believe that we don't all have
    Jeffrey Dahmers for neighbors and that most of us are trustworthy
    people.  And, that's what I'd like to teach my children.  Not that they
    have to be protected at every minute from society.
    
    
    jean
    

>> Is 7 1/2 years old, old enough to take that responsibility?  Was she
>> correct in punishing him?  

    Yes and yes!!  7 1/2 is definitely old enough.  Kids have to start
    to learn to be responsible when it comes to rules and breaking them. 
    
>>     As for the sitter and the punishment, I 
>>     feal that she should have talked to him first, then if it happened
>>     again, punish him. 
    
    Well, to quote you're .0 message:  "She said he has been told
    in the past, to come in and let her know that he is there."
    THAT'S THE RULES!!  7 1/2 is plenty old enough to know and understand
    it.
    
    
    As far as all the other stuff you mentioned, did you ever watch a bunch
    of kids like that before?  When they break the rules, you let them know
    firmly.  She's got 5 (or whatever) kids to watch and has to lay down
    the laws.  Regarding your perception of what's going on, how much time
    do you spend there?  You drop off and you pick up.  
    
    Chris D.

    I agree that the child should check in when he arrives off the bus.
    But, on the other hand the baby sitter should know whether the bus has
    been by yet or not. If he didn't check in, then I'd wonder, was the bus
    here already? I would talk with your sitter and let her know your
    concerns, sound like this problem can be worked out easily.
    
     My wife and I have some problems withe our sitter. For the most part
    she is great and we feel we do get QUALITY care for our daughter. But
    there are a few things we don't know how to address, there's one
    incident (just one, I hope) that we both aren't happy with, we'll let
    it slide for now, but next time something must be said.
      Our 2.3 year old daughter said the "Aunty spanked me" (she refers to
    the sitter as 'Aunty') so we probed her, 'Why did Aunty spank you?'
    "cause Taylor didn't say, AMEN!" I was furious! My wife the next day
    when she picked up our daughter at the sitters ask the baby sitter
    about it and she (the sitter) seemed suprised. The sitter wanted her to
    say "AMEN" after they said grace before eating, she didn't, so they sent
    her away from the table, she threw a fit, so the sitter spanked her.
    First of all, this child is just barely 2 years old, second thing is
    they are a different religion than us, my daughter was Baptised
    Catholic, they are Jehova Witness's, I have nothing against there
    religion, but there's no way I'll tolerate them pushing there're
    religion, they haven't so far that I know of. They read her bible
    stories and that's fine but, I hope there are not pushing there beliefs
    on her! It's nice my daughters getting to age where she tells us about
    the things that go on during the day when she's at the sitter!
    
                                       Jeff

    
    re: .12
    
    	Wow!  Does this one strike home.  I had a child care provider who
    was also a Jahovha's Witness and she was rather pushy on my kids about
    their religion too.  We're Catholics.  I didn't mind the Bible stories,
    however, when she started telling my kids that Saddham Hussein was the
    Anti-Christ and the world was going to come to an end, I ended their
    relationship with her.  FAST!  I also had a problem when it was one of
    my chidren's birthdays.  She would make a point of telling them it was
    not a big deal.  She and her son didn't "celebrate" birthdays. 
    Instead, I believe, it was an excuse for her to spoil him rotten. 
    Instead of getting a few presents for a birthday, he'd get presents at
    least once a week!  And we're not talking just a small toy.
    
    	I hope I don't hear from all the Witness's here in Digital.  I'm
    not putting them all down or their religion.  It's just like any other
    religion, if that's what you believe and want to practice, that is your
    choice.  No problem... just please don't push it onto me or my
    children.  And I won't push my religion on you either.
    
    	Anyway, as you can see, I had a lot of problems with her.  I also
    know some of it wasn't religion oriented, but that she had a lot of
    emotional problems stemming from a difficult childhood.  
    
    	I feel I should mention that this person is licensed.
    
    	Anyway, I suggest you keep your ears open for what is being said at
    your sitter's house.  
    
    
    jean
    
    
    

>>    But, on the other hand the baby sitter should know whether the bus has
>>    been by yet or not. If he didn't check in, then I'd wonder, was the bus
>>    here already? 
    
    
      I'm willing to bet the sitter hears the bus.  How can you not when it
    stops right next door and drives by the house.  Then she gives him/them
    a few minutes to check in.  If they don't, they get the couch
    treatment.
    
    Chris D.

    I agree 7.5 yrs. is plenty old enough to get off the bus on your own
    and then check in.  I don't give my kids a 2nd chance after disobeying
    a rule.  
    
    If you want more personalized treatment for your child, then you may
    have to pay a lot more for that attention.
    
    If you don't care for the kind of care your kid receives, then seems
    like you need to put him somewhere else.  I don't think the sitter is
    going to change.
    
    cindy

re: .12

Wow.  Not flaming is very difficult for me.

Under NO circumstances should a sitter EVER spank a child, even if the
parents do.  Time outs, fine.  Spanking, NEVER.

The actual situation, IMO, is just as bad, if not worse, than getting spanked
for not saying "Amen."  Sending her away from a meal for not saying "amen?!!"

The fact that your daughter is required to say "amen" or she doesn't eat IS
forcing their religion on her.

And not only did they spank her BUT THEY DID NOT TELL YOU ABOUT IT.  Does
this indicate that they are concealing or that they regard spanking as a
trivial event, not worth reporting?  Neither is particularly appealing to me.

Quite honestly, this incident alone would be enough for me to find another
babysitter right now.  At a minimum I would say to them:

     -    Don't EVER strike my child.  If you do, I will go to authorities.

     -    Don't EVER discipline my child for failing to participate in some
          religious ceremony, even if it's just saying "amen."


Clay

    Re: .12
    
    It really upsets me after reading your note.  There is NO WAY
    for me to tolerate what your sitter did.  No child should be
    punished because of not saying "AMAM", not even by his/her own
    parents.   
    
    Wendy 
      

    I read this note earlier in the day and entered a reply but had to
    delete it as I was too angry to be rational about replying.


    NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER would I allow ANYONE to push their religion
    on my son (AND PUNISH HIM FOR NOT CONFORMING??????!!!). (and yes, I
    consider the incident you described as an example of pushing thier
    religion on your son).

    Obviously this is not as hot a button for you as it is for me.


    Geesh, if I EVER heard of my babysitter punishing my son for NOT SAYING
    AMEN????!!!!!! at the table and then being forced to leave the table
    AND THEN BEING SPANKED????!!!!!, I would remove my child immediately
    and look into the license being revoked (I'm absolutely serious here).

    
    I'm not even comfortable with the idea of having Bible stories read
    (what do you mean evolution mommy?, so and so told me that God made
    Adam and Eve) where does it stop? Is she portraying God as the God of
    the first testament who is a vengeful God full of wrath, or is she using
    the New testament God? Is she manipulating your child with good
    behavior with threats of going to "hell" if he does not behave?

    	ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    This makes me so very angry to see how other people think they can so
    freely manipulate others under the guise of their religion.

    	Maybe I'll go calm down a bit.

    			Wendy



    	

    
    Along with the others, I don't agree with what the babysitter in .12?
    did either.  But just to clarify what I read, the child was removed
    from the table for not saying amen.  He/she wasn't spanked for that,
    but for throwing a tantrum.  I don't agree with either punishment for
    either "crime", but the two are seperate incidents even though one led
    to the other.
    
    Chris D.  who_would_seriously_think_about_reporting_them_too!

re: .20

>    But just to clarify what I read, the child was removed
>    from the table for not saying amen.  He/she wasn't spanked for that,
>    but for throwing a tantrum. 

Thanks for emphasizing that.  I did understand, and agree with you that 
neither punishment was appropriate for either incident.

Now that I'm calmed down from reading .12, a comment on .0.

Add another vote to the column that recommends changing daycare providers 
because of general dissatifaction, but that it's reasonable to expect a 7 year 
old to "check in" when s/he arrives, and not necessary for a daycare provider 
to meet the bus (absent some condition such as an ex-spouse who could abduct 
the child, a neccessity to cross a busy street to get to the daycare 
providers, or a "bus stop bully").

One other thing that's not clear to me from the base note is how LONG the kid 
had been sitting on the couch.  For a first offense, I would say fifteen 
minutes or so, and a firm warning is fine, but much longer than that, and/or a 
loud tone of voice, is excessive.  

Not to make light of .0's problem, but I find this a little amusing.  Our 
eight year old son's school bus pickup is out of sight of our house, probably 
a hundred yards away.  My wife had to "negotiate" accompanying him to the 
school bus stop; he "allowed" her to accompany him, but NOT to stand with him, 
and ONLY for the first day.  My wife does not meet the bus, but hears it as it 
goes by.  She does expect him to "check in", and he is mildly rebuked if he 
doesn't.  

Clay

7 1/2 year olds should certainly be capable of getting off the
bus and into the house unaccompanied;  our son, who will be 8 on Sunday, 
walks or rides his bike 1/2 mile to school almost every day, and has been
all year (maybe this is yet another benefit of living in the Midwest :-) )  
Usually, he goes with friends, but sometimes goes alone.  Impromptu 
carpools are formed when the weather is really bad.

He is under strict orders to check in as soon as he gets home, or to call 
if he stops at a friend's house.  My wife gets concerned when he 
doesn't show up or call within 15-20 minutes of school being out.

One day this week, he went to a friend's house, called once, but my wife
was vacuuming and didn't hear the phone.  My son hung up instead of
leaving a message on the machine.  It took my wife an hour to track
him down.  The punishment was a lot more severe than a timeout on the
sofa.  We are talking grounded for three weeks (the three weeks was
his idea, we are letting him earn "early release" by doing extra
work around the house) ... no TV, except for specials that are planned
for in advance; no outside activities except regularly scheduled 
events (Cub Scouts, baseball, etc.)

I don't think your sitter's timeout on the sofa was unreasonable at all.
But, it does sound like this is just one incident on top of others
that upsets you about her. 

Frank

I just need to add a couple cents' worth here on this very sensitive
subject.

First, in response to .0, certainly (perhaps) most 7.5-year-olds are
capable of getting off a bus and into the next house down the street
unattended.  The things that I personally would consider, however, are:

	o Is MY 7.5-year-old capable/responsible enough to do it?
	o Why is my daycare provider "too busy" to be there for it?

To me it is of the utmost importance to KNOW that the person caring for my
child in my absence knows where my child is at all times and what he is
doing and that he is not in danger.  That's what they get paid to do.  That
is their PRIMARY function, along with all the other fun/educational stuff
we want for our kids.

As for the religious stuff, daycare is not bible school.  I would never
leave my child with a home-based provider that incorporated their religious
beliefs in their daycare.  As a matter of fact when I searched for daycare
for my baby I made sure that either they left it out altogether or that
they covered ALL holidays in their celebrations.  How unfair and unethical
it is to make children practice or celebrate holidays outside their
religions and not acknowledge theirs!

As for punishing, that violates Mass State licensing laws. Period.

~Caryn

    
    Wait a minute folks.  I know some people who put their children in a
    religious daycare environment intentionally.  So I really think some of
    these replies are out of line in this respect.  If the parent wasn't
    aware of or didn't approve of the practice, then this is a different
    story all together.  It sounds like a lot of people are saying this is
    wrong, it is not what you would do, but it is not wrong.
    
    Mike

	So as not to clutter up the new babysitter available note, I'll
	ask my question here.

	Why is the age 18 or younger ? Is that to imply 19 or older should
	not offer their service ?
	

    Our neighbor's little boy (just turned 2) has learned how to open
    their back gate and cross the street!  Our neighborhood street is
    very busy -- mostly cars, but we get our fair share of trucks, too.
    This little one's mother is my back up sitter and is supposed to
    mind my two when my regular sitter goes on vacation this summer!
    What am I going to do?!  There are no guarantees that Zachary 
    won't open the gate and let my daughter (who isn't yet 2) out.
    I hate to think of what could happen....Also, this neighbor is
    supposed to start taking in another little baby -- I think in
    August, but it could be later, it could be earlier....Should I
    start making alternate plans for the weeks that my regular sitter
    is on vacation this summer?  She will be gone for two weeks at
    the end of July, a week in mid-July and a week at the end of August.
    Every time I think about this I feel like throwing up....
    
    HELP!
    Kate

re: .0

>    Every time I think about this I feel like throwing up....
   
   I don't have this situation to handle, but I think this statement you
   made says it all.  As many others have said here... go with your gut
   feelings... it would seem that yours is trying to tell you something..
   
   On the other hand, maybe something as simple as a padlock or
   self-closing clasp on the gate would be good enough too...
   
   Good Luck,
   
   - Tom

    Does your neighbor know about her son's new skill? 
    
    I second .1: If it terrifies you, take some action. If you
    decide just to make alternate plans, that STILL means her 
    son is in great danger. Let your heart decide.
    
    Monica

    First off make sure she knows that her son can open the gate!  It
    should be a simple matter to install some new mechanism that the 2 year
    old can't open.  Think of his safety as well as your childs.
    
    Dave

    
    I know this might sound dumb but where is the mother??
    Fenced in yard or not if a child that young is outside
    someone should be watching... nuff said!
    
    

Re .4

I don't think you can assume that Mom was not there when the little guy
let himself out.  It's possible she just turned for a second.  When I 
was about that age, my Mom had put me out in the fenced-in yard while
she ironed on the screen porch from which she could see me  but where
I'd be safer than being under the iron.  I had watched my parents open
that locked gate many times, and finally figured I should try it myself.
So I quietly undid the lock, opened the gate, and, knowing I'd be in
serious trouble if Mom knew I'd let myself out, walked across the
street to the neighbor's where I proceeded to have milk and cookies. Needless
to say, my mother went nuts when she saw I was missing, and eventually
found me across the street.  But she was right there while I was doing all
this.

And you can't say that Mom can't be expected to turn away for a minute,
especially in a fenced in yard where the assumption is that the child is
safe. Don't you ever go to the bathroom while watching your kids?  I have
mine gated in the kitchen, and have come out of the bathroom to find the
2 of them in the dishwasher taking all the dishes out, or to find 1 of
them playing with my computer.  I don't believe you can be there every
second, or that if you are, you can prevent everything from happening.

To the basenoter, I'd make sure the mother knows the child can get out,
though I suspect she did have to go retrieve him.  And suggest a lock on
the gate that is higher up than the child can reach.  And if you don't
think the problem has been solved by the time you need her to watch your
child, find an alternate. You don't want anything to happen to your child,
and you don't want to spend the entire time imagining all these terrible 
things going wrong.

    Well, they bought a padlock for the gate, so that helps.  I know
    what .31 means, though, you can't be everywhere at once.  And this
    2-year-old is as slippery as an eel.  I am exploring other options
    for summer vacations, but I can't take two weeks off right in a row,
    at least not right now.

    About a month ago my usual babysitter couldn't sit for my two children
    so she recommended a friend of hers to babysit.  Ok, so I talked to
    this girl... I'll call her "J" to protect the guilty.  J said oh yes
    she babysits all the time and would love to sit for my two 10 year-olds
    I talked with J's mother and she said that yes definately J is
    responsible and babysits alot.  I need a babysitter so I said alright.
    I explicitly told J the rules of the house with the twins sitting right
    there, so that everyone knew exactly what I expected.
    
    One rule was that nobody was to go into my room.  (I had candy in there
    that I ration to the kids very little at a time)  So, I locked my
    bedroom door.  Another rule was that the house was to be kept picked
    up.  I told them what they could have for breakfast and lunch. and so
    on.
    
    Well, I came home to a complete pig sty.  And J is holding out her hand
    for payment.  I looked around, wasn't too crazy about the way the house
    looked and talked to her about this.  She picked up somewhat before I
    paid her and she left.
    
    Well, after she left I discovered that they had popped the lock to my
    bedroom door, took all the candy then relocked the door.  
    
    Some of my dishes had appearently been broken and thrown out.
    
    My foot stool in the living room had been broken by J and she tried
    to hot-glue it (not very successfully) back together.
    
    J had been standing on the edge of one of my twins $80 comforter as
    she was yanking it and ripped the whole bottem edge of it off.
    
    A whole weeks worth of grocery's were gone.
    
    She lost my house key...  She didn't know if she lost it in the house
    or outside somewhere (now there's a comforting thought huh?)
    
    And there's probably more damage and things missing that I have yet
    to notice.....
    
    OK, I can understand an accident here and there.  But she never even
    bothered to mention any of this stuff to me!  That's what bothers me
    the most.  That she was very dishonest and irresponsible.  Had she
    mentioned to me what had happened I wouldn't be so upset, but to
    try to cover it over the way she did is, in my opinion very deceitful.
    After I noticed the various damages I called her and asked her what
    happened to my foot stool, Brandy's comforter, my house key,
    my drinking glasses, etc.
    
    "Oh" she says, "I forgot to tell you about all that...."  I told her
    that infact it looked to me like she had no intention of telling me
    because she very definately tried to cover all this stuff over.  I told
    her I thought this was very deceitful and felt like she should make
    good on the damage she wrought in my house.  Or at the very least
    she should return the money that I paid her.  "Oh, yes" she says "I'll
    definately replace the things I broke."
    
    Well, that was a month ago and I've not heard from her since.  So I
    called her parents.  Well, her father informed me that I was crazy to
    think that she should either give the money back or replace what she
    broke in my house.  That what she did and how she handled it was 
    perfectly ok as far as he was concerned.  And that's just my tough
    luck.
    
    I'm very upset about this and am so mad I feel like taking them to
    small claims court.  But I don't know if I should even bother.
    With her parents attitude, I guess it's no wonder this kid is so
    irresponsible, untrustworthy, sneaky, deceitful, etc.
    
    I told my regular babysitter what happened and suggested that she not
    recommend her friend to babysit any more.  And I'm definately not
    going to pay cash anymore.  I'm going to pay by check, so that if I find
    any damage that was not mentioned to me I can stop payment on the
    check.
    
    I guess the reason I'm entering this is for suggestions regarding what
    I could have done differently. and   Do I have any further recourse here?
    
    Well, thanks for listening,
    Sharon

    Can't offer help but, got a question...
    
    This all happened in 1 (one) day???
    
    I'd be livid too!
    
    Jodi-

I'd suggest you change the locks on your doors.

I hired a boy to feed my cats and fish while I was on vacation (a couple of
years ago).  Showed him where we hid the spare key.  

He fed the cats and fish.  He also showed his friends where we hid the key.
He left on vacation during part of my vacation so I had arranged for a friend
of mine to continue caring for my pets.  Two things happened:

	1) one of my neighbors saw teenage boys (several) coming into my
	   house and he called the police
	2) these boys decided it would be fun to use our phone to call
	   1-900 sex numbers a few times.  $151 worth of these calls.

The boy did pay for it.  He was fairly responsible, in that his crime was
showing the key to his friends (most of the calls were made after he was
on vacation).  However, the babysitter you are talking about does *not*
sound responsible or honest, and I would fear that either she will use that
key to steal from you (she already has once - the candy) or that she will
pass the key on to someone else who would.

      Carol

    Please also reference note 36 for general information about babysitters
    - pay, transportation, feeding, etc.
    
    Laura
    co-mod
    

    RE: What you could have done differently --
    
    Next time, you might want to ask for references of
    those who have used the babysitter.  I'd stay away from getting
    references from the parents, other relatives, or friends.
    
    Also, with a first time sitter, I like to call the house just to see
    how things are going and see if there's anything they need to know that
    I forgot to tell them.  It also lets them know that you're concerned
    about what's going on.  That might make them think twice before getting
    into trouble.
    
    Sorry you had such a bad experience.
    
    - Sheryl

    You hit the nail on the head when you said that the parents attitude
    explains HER attitude.
    
    How old WAS this 'sitter'?
    
    Small claims court?  Forget it, not worth the trouble, chalk it up to
    experience.
    
    Jeff

    IMO, don't be so quick to finger point at the "first time" sitter. 
    During the great blizzard back in December I asked my regular fifteen
    year old sitter to take AJ for the entire day.  I specified NO smoking,
    told her what to give him for lunch, told her to make herself a
    sandwich too, she already knew where to find the soda, for her, and she
    asked permssion for ONE friend (female) to visit.
    
    I called during the day, she said AJ had knocked a wooden toy off his
    shelf and cut his forehead, I was upset that she called her father NOT
    me about it, but her dad came and helped her put a bandaid onit.  If it
    had not been for the weather it really needed a stitch or two.  After
    we came home the bathroom reaked of cigarett smoke, she aparently had
    used the bathroom to smoke, with the window open.  The towel stunk, and
    the window sil was covered in grey from the ashes.  Later in the spring
    we found not only cigarett butts on the pool cover, but BEER cans under
    the porch.  AJ told horror stories of her watching MTV, him being
    locked in his room, how the sitter "bought a cigarette from her
    'brother' John" ( wondered if it wasn't an illegal cigarett many times)
    and my refridgerator basically cleaned out.  Acording to AJ's comments
    there were something like three girls and two boys who came to visit
    during the day.  When school was cancelled the next week, we took turns
    staying home rather than hire our "sitter from H*LL"!  
    
    This girl had been sitting for me, at nights up to this point, for a
    couple years.  She was the younger sister of a best friend of our next
    door neighbor.  (the next door neighbor was in college and had a
    boyfriend now so insteadof leaving me in the lurch she recommended this
    one)  I have since found another sitter, since the last time I saw this
    one she was"hanging out" in the center of town, fast cars and fast boys
    etc, and looking like a street walker.  I had her for only one night
    since December, it was a very early night since I felt uneasy leaving
    her with AJ, and she looked a little like she might be "using"
    something.  I actually made little pencil lines on my cooking sherry
    just to see if any was missing.  I think so, but can't be sure.
    
    Yes I did pay her the usual amount, but she's history now.  Tbankfully
    AJ is old enough to relate a story pretty acurately.
    
    Lyn

    My kids are in an extended day care program -- for a lot of reasons,
    my full-time sitter ends her day at 4:30-5 p.m., which was OK when
    we started James with her in 1988 (!) but when my husband's job
    started requiring more and more hours (and now he is in business 
    for himself), we needed someone to mind the kids from 4:30 till 6.
    So we found a neighbor, who also serves as my alternative sitter
    when my main sitter is on vacation.
    
    Over the last few months, both of the kids have gotten more and more
    resistant to going to Chris' at the end of the day.  I should say that
    Chris' kids are 7 and 2 and they are pretty rough-and-tumble boys.  My
    kids are not used to that.  We do our share of tickling, but they don't
    own swords, pretend guns, or any of that business.  Anyway, In the last
    few weeks, James has thrown a screaming fit at the end of the day about
    going from Elaine's (the full-time sitter) to Chris'.  One day, Chris
    was able to come and pick them up, and he handled that OK, but he was
    just having a terrible time with it in general.  He'd throw his shoes
    down the hall, kick the sitter, sit down in the middle of the (very
    busy) street and refuse to move, etc.  And the days he didn't carry
    on, Hollis did.  Damn.  So every night I'm hearing these stories about
    how awful the kids are handling this last transition of the day, and
    finally I said, forget it, I'm making other arrangements.
    
    Elaine will keep the kids two days, another neighbor's daughter will
    keep them a day or two, and I'm negotiating an adjusted work schedule
    with my manager for the remainder of the time.
    
    The thing is, all this happened kind of abruptly, and I think I hurt
    Chris' (the other sitter's) feelings.  Which I had no intention of
    doing.  But I can't let my kids throw a total fit because they don't
    want to go to here house!!  I kept asking James, why don't you want to
    go to Chris', and he made some vague references to the kids picking on
    him, and Chris and her husband didn't do anything about it, etc.
    
    So what should I do about Chris?  I was going to give her another
    week's pay, which I still am going to do.  But I really want to keep
    her goodwill, I like her as a person, and I do need to have her as a
    backup sitter.  Did I handle it badly?  would you have kept your kids
    in the situation, even though they acted like they didn't want to go?.
    
    BTW, James is 5.5 and in kindergarten; Hollis is 2.
    
    Hope you can understand this note.  Any other perspectives out there.
    
    Kate

FWIW, if my kids were clearly unhappy with the daycare arrangements, I'd
definitely do something.  The "something" might be talking to the provider,
talking to the kids, talking to them both together, and/or changing providers. 
It sounds like you did some or maybe even all of these.  You sent a clear
message to your kids that you listen to them and support their feelings, so
give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back before you resume beating
yourself up wondering if you handled it "properly" :-)

Can you call Chris and tell her what you've said here?
That you're
	
	- concerned that you made the daycare change so abruptly
	  that you unintentionally hurt her feelings
	- that you yourself were completely satisfied with the care
	  provided (or say whatever truthful positive things you can
	  say), but that your kids (or James if he was the only one)
          were so unhappy that you felt you had to do something quickly

You might even want to admit that you're not sure you handled this properly.
This gives Chris a chance to vent any negative feelings she might have.
(Just be prepared for it if she does accept the invitation!  You'll need
to accept that she's feeling hurt without taking her comments personally
and this can be really tough -- at least it usually is for me.)

Good luck! 

- Deb

    
        Hi,
    
        My 3 1/2 year old grandson is in daycare and loves everything
    except nap time. They give him a box of tissues and tell him to just
    rest. He'll lay there and let tears come down his eyes and keep wiping
    with fresh tissues. My daughter has popped in at all hours to check
    on things and he seems so happy until then. She popped in when it
    was naptime and saw him laying there with his box of tissues mumbling
    "I hate nap time."
    
       He tells me everytime I see him that he likes school buts hates
    nap time. He says nap time makes him so sad. When he comes over
    my house (maybe I spoil him too much) I've never made him take a nap.
    In fact we are so busy, then we go places the only time he sleeps
    is if he happens to fall asleep then I'll let him sleep until
    he awakens.
    
       I'm wondering if this is going to be traumatic for him in the
    future. What can my daughter or me say to him to help him to understand
    his feelings and that it's okay for him not to like nap time but that
    when he's in day care he needs to follow their rules and nap or just
    lay there and rest. It's been well over a month and I was hoping it
    was just an adjustment he needed. Should I start having a nap time
    on days I have him? I guess I'm a very overly worried grandmother.
    He's my only one and I wish I could help him with this, if it's
    something I do need to help him with.
    
       The day-care he's in let's anyone that is on the list of people
    that my daughter gave them come to the day-care at anytime to 
    either stay for a while or take the child. My daughter gave them
    a list of people she trusted, I'm on the list of course. They told
    my daughter that I was more than welcome to be there. So I feel 
    comfortable that this is just a thing that he doesn't want to
    do and not something that is pushed at him. It's a rule they have
    that the children rest at a certain time and he doesn't like it at
    all.
    
        Has anyone run into this problem? It seems to me that they are
    probably handling it very well. He holds his tissues and uses
    them and quietly cries. My daughter said it looked more like an
    actor playing his part than a person that was really feeling sad.
    She said she personally felt he was trying to convince them to
    let him get his own way.
    
         Thanks for any advice or ideas anyone has.
    
         Rose Marchand

My daughter goes to a daycare with about 20 kids.  The kids range in ages from
14m to 5years.  At nap time they arrange the kids in rooms by the length of nap
they take.  This lets the kids who need more sleep be undisturbed.  There is one
16m old that only sleeps 45 minutes.  She is usally the last one asleep and the
first one awake.  All kids take a nap (regardless of length).  Until they fall
asleep, they can move around on their mat but must stay on their mat.

The daycare seems to go by what the parent advises and what the child needs
versus a set amount of time for all the kids.  For example, we instructed them
not to let Lauren sleep more than 2 hours otherwise she is a night owl.

Just wanted to give you another perspective.

    At Russell's daycare center, they try to get all the kids to take a
    nap.  If a child really doesn't nap, they try to get them to rest
    quietly for a while.  The teachers usually use this time to fill out
    the daily sheets.  What they do is allow children who aren't sleeping
    to color quietly after they finish with the sheets.  Maybe you could
    get the center to allow you grandson to do some very quiet activity
    after a short rest?  Russell just turned three, but this policy was in
    effect in the two's room as well.
    
    marianne

    My son's day-care allows the children a choice of napping or else
    looking at books on their cot.  They don't have to go to sleep if 
    they don't want to.  Quite a few of the 3 year old's and older don't
    sleep, but sit quietly on their cots and look at the pictures.  
    Ocassionally, for a change of pace, a mother might send in a small
    photo album or maybe some toy catalogues from home for the child
    to browse through during "nap" time.  
    
    Jane
    

       Thanks for the replies , When I see my daughter later I'll mention
    to her the possibility of him looking at a book while laying on the
    blanket. This sounds better than a box of tissues and him crying (Or
    pretend crying) either way I don't feel comfortable with knowing
    he does this every day for 5 days a week. If he looking at a book
    then I would feel much better. Especially if there aren't any tears
    with it.
    
       Thanks,
    
        Rose Marchand

    Many years ago I went thru this with my son who was 4.9 at the time. 
    The day care center insisted that it was a state rule that all the kids 
    nap -- not just rest-- for at least 45 minutes.  Jaime was a kid who 
    didn't nap more than 20 minutes until he was 18 months old (! i almost 
    couldn't wait to get back to work just so i could get something done w/o 
    interruption!), and had basically given up all naps by age 4.  I think it 
    was a combination of not wanting to be at this day care [a new one, his 
    older one only took kids under 4.5] and the fact that he just didn't want 
    to be forced into lying quiet [still a problem at almost 10!].  To make a 
    long story short they eventually asked us to leave the center.  The next 
    center allowed him to lay by the window and read, he could nap if he was 
    tired enough but it wasn't required.  Now the first director tells me that 
    they just require the kids to rest quietly for 45 minutes.  What a 
    difference that would've made for me and Jaime.
    
    sandy

    Something happened at daycare this morning which has me very upset.
    Before I overreact, I thought I should turn to the parenting notes file
    for some advice on what I should do about it.  
    
    My 3 year old has been having a very hard time with me leaving him each
    morning at day care lately.  This is because I kept him home with me
    for 8 weeks while I was on maternity leave, and have only been back to
    work for a few weeks now, so he is still getting readjusted to the 
    return to daycare.  Each morning I stay with him as long as I can, but
    when I leave, he cries quite hard and loud.  (It's heartbreaking for 
    me.)  But one of the teachers holds him and hugs him as I leave, and
    helps him to calm down.
    
    This morning as I left, however, one of the teachers picked him up and
    put him on her shoulders and began dancing around the room with him.  
    As I turned to wave one last time, I saw him hoisted up on her
    shoulders, crying and screaming, and her bouncing around underneath 
    him.  What she probably didn't know was that he HATES to be lifted 
    up on anyone's shoulders.  He's nervous about heights.  But she 
    couldn't tell because she assumed his crying was just about my leaving.
    I realized that he was feeling doubly out of control--a) because his
    mother was leaving, and b) because he couldn't make the teacher put 
    him down.
    
    I called to the teacher and said "He doesn't like that!".  She gave me
    sort of a hurt look, but reached up to lift him down.  Then I scooted
    right out the door out of habit, because once you've said goodbye to a 
    child who doesn't want you to go, it's only worse if you go back again
    and then have to say goodbye again.  But I really didn't want to leave
    at that moment.  I wanted to go back in and yell at that teacher for
    being so insensitive.  
    
    I was shaking all the way to work and can barely concentrate on my work
    now.  What would you do (or would you have done) in my situation?  
      
    Jane

    	I think you did the right thing by saying good-bye.

    	I think the teacher did the right thing by trying to distract an
    upset three year old with *the best method she knew how*


    	I think you did the right thing, which was to tell the teacher that
    he didn't like that.

    	I think she did the right thing by putting him down.

    	I'm not sure that there was any insensitivity here.

    	I think that *both* of you (you and your son) may be having
    difficulties separating. It's not easy to see your child cry and it's
    not easy to see others handle your child in a manner that you would
    not.

    	But chances are, that once you were out of sight, he calmed down
    and joined the other kids. I have called more than once to check on
    Spencer because I thought surely, I'd have to drive him to an Emergency
    room to be sedated, only to find out that he was happily playing and
    having a good time.

    	No one ever said that this would be easy.

    				Wendy

    Jane,
    
    It definitely is heartbreaking to leave a screaming child, but as far
    as the teacher being insensitive, you said it yourself, she probably
    didn't know that he didn't like being up on someone's shoulders.  Now,
    if she had just ignored you and didn't make a move to put him down then
    I'd say she was being insensitive.  But, she probably thought that by
    playing with him she was distracting him and doing something that alot
    of kids like.
    
    Have you spoken to the teachers about how long he cries for after you
    leave?  It's easy to imagine that he's crying all day long for you when
    you walk out the door, but if he stops within a few minutes then he's
    doing ok and the separation crying should stop soon.
    
    Also, if you're still steaming at the end of the day when you go to
    pick him up, talk to the teacher, explain that he's afraid of heights.
    If she's all apologetic, then you know it was an oversight, if she's
    defensive or not so nice then talk to the director.
    
    Susan (a mom that will have to handle a new daycare situation soon,
    too)

    Sounds like the teacher did the best she could.  Being in her
    position myslef I would suggest you spend a few minutes talking with
    her tonight.  Explain to her what you did here.  Your son does not like
    heights and tell her you are having trouble leaving him after spending
    so much time at home with him and same for him.
    
    The more information the teacher has about you, your son and both your
    likes/dislikes and difficulties the better it is for all concerned.
    
    Good luck, and keep the lines fo communication open.
    Joyce
                                                  

    An interesting thing that I noticed when Jason was about 2-3 ... the
    longer I stayed to help "get him settled", the more upset he was when
    it was time for me to leave.  He seemed to do MUCH better if I just
    "dumped" him off.  I know it sounds terrible, but I really think that
    he got to thinking I was going to stay all day, when I was just trying
    to help him settle in.  So then when I'd go to leave, it'd disrupt him
    all over again.  Once I figured that out, I'd bring him in, get his
    coat hung up, give him a hug/kiss, and leave.  It seemed kind of quick
    to ME, but it seemed to work better for him.  After a few weeks, he'd
    even forget to say goodby, and I'D be the one crying after I dropped
    him off.  (-;  
    
    The same as it messes us up to have our kids in work, I think it messes
    them up to have mom/dad at their school/daycare.  
    
    And just yesterday he asked me when he could go into school by himself
    because he didn't want me to walk him in anymore.  )-:  
    
    Geez, when did HE grow up?!?  (-:
    

    I need a couple of opinions here.  Yesterday it was about 33 degrees
    out in Nashua, NH.  I feel that to be a little too cold for my six
    month old to be out.  Her sitter mentioned they went out (with the
    other kids) for about an hour at 8:30 a.m. (which was probably 
    colder at that time).  She had said it got a little chilly when the
    wind blew and all the kids had cute rosy cheeks when they came in.
    
    Now this morning Angeline is a little stuffy.  She just got over
    a four week bout with a cough and this week is the first week she's
    been clear everyday.  She's just a little stuffy, as I said, so I
    mentioned to the sitter I don't want her to go out today.  It's only
    supposed to get to about the mid-30's today.  I could tell by her
    face that she (the sitter) didn't like it.   I expect it's because
    now all the other kids will have to stay in.   
    
    I'm afraid she's going to go ahead and take her out.  Do you think
    it's too cold?   The older kids are walking and moving when they're
    out.  Angeline is just laying there (in the stroller).  Granted,
    she has a nice warm snowsuit.  But if it was a Saturday, I don't
    think I'd have her out, stuffy nose or not. 
    
    Do you think I'm being too protective?  I figure at least low to
    mid 40's to be out walking an infant.  Am I being unreasonable?
    
    						cj *->

Personally, we're very outdoor oriented people.   We have bundled up our
daughter from the beginning and out she went with us.  First in the stroller
hanging out with us or on a walk,  now in the stroller when we walk, or
running around the yard. 

All our friends think we're nuts, but that's because THEY don't like to be out
in the cold, so they assume it's too cold for their kids. 

As long as she's bundled, and you do a hand/foot check for cold, (ears are
covered of course), then she shoudl be fine.    Also, put some creamy baby oil
or hand cream or whatever on her cheeks to prevent any wind-drying. 

Colds, in my opinion, are caused by the introduction of bacteria or virus, not
by being out in the cold.   I think everyone benefits from getting out in the 
fresh air out of the closed up/heated house.  Also, I think houses benefit 
from a good airing this time of year.  

I'm thrilled that our sitter takes the kids out on walks as much as she does,
even when it's quite cold.   But I know any of our friends would have a fit. 
She's likely have them out for a walk on a day like today, but the sidewalks 
are not clear here.  

    
    If it is sunny and not too windy or raw, 30 something degrees is 
    not bad. I think when we live in this part of the country, we need
    to get out of the house, preferably everyday to get fresh air.
    Air inside a heated home isn't the healthiest, especially in a
    daycare situation where germs are plentiful. Maybe you can bring
    an extra baby blanket to bundle up when your baby is outside.
    
    
    
    Eva
    
    

    Both replies so far agree with the women here at the office
    also.  In fact, I just called my sitter and said to do what
    she wanted (she was glad). 
    
    I guess we just have to learn these things as we go along.
    Thanks for your opinions!
    						cj *->

    CJ,
    
    Good lcuk!  It's always hard when someone wants to do things that are
    in direct conflict with what WE think is "right" or "reasonable".  I
    have mixed feelings on the issue.  Even at 16 mos, I don't like
    Jonathan to be out in the "real cold", but I think that's mostly
    because I don't get a good feeling that they pay enough attention to be
    sure he's warm.  It's not the "outdoors" that I'm opposed to, but it's
    the COLD!  If I felt more comfortable that they checked him, I probably
    wouldn't care at all.  But I've seen them have kids out and be half
    froze and all "pink and cheeky", and they think it's cute.
    
    Maybe if you ask her to just make "extra" sure that she's bundled up
    well?  When Jonathan was 5 mos old and had whooping cough, this was the
    "prescription" I got to help him be able to breathe (and this was in
    February);
    
    Put him in a steamy bathroom (run the shower full hot) for about 20
    mins.  Then dry him and bundle him up and take him outside in the cold
    (and this was at ~1am, so it was COLD!) for ~20 mins.  It worked
    INCREDIBLY well for him (though I thought I was going to die, but no
    time for that (-;).
    
    So, maybe the cold is good in limited quantities. (though I still
    couldn't keep the thought "I'm going to die of pneumonia doing this!") 
    out of my head.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    I also think the cold is fine and healthy.  If the baby is dressed
    appropriately I don't believe she will get a cold from being outside.
    I think the child stays healthier from being outside, especially in
    winter when our houses are all closed up.  Until the last month or so
    Alex had a cold almost all the time. I think we had a few month
    reprieve over the summer. He is now 20 months old.  He was sick last
    year ALL winter.  We were at the doctor's every week, he was sent home
    from day care every week and we were beside ourselves. However, I remember 
    asking the pediatrician what he thought about the sicknesses and about
    taking him out in the cold (just in case)  He confirmed what we were 
    doing was great and that there was no way for us to stop the sicknesses 
    because he needed to build his resistence. He said even if we pulled
    him from day care and kept him more isolated he would still get sick
    often once he got to nursery school because of the body's need to build
    resistence to viruses.  This year we stared all over again in November 
    with the awful colds and fevers and feared it would go all winter again.  
    Well, I almost fear saying that we haven't been back to the doctor's since 
    late December.  This is a MAJOR accomplishment. Of course he is on low
    level antibiotic every day for his ears. Alex has still had several 
    colds but they haven't developed beyond the light cough and runny nose 
    stage.
    
    My point in saying all this is to point out that the colds might be
    coming more from being around other kids rather than from being out in
    the cold or from anything you or the babysitter is doing to her.
    
    Kathy   

    Well, the time has come for me to (once again) consult my sounding
    board here.  There's just some small issues that are bugging me a
    bit with my daycare, and want to run them by the "experts" before
    I talk with her.  
    
    A little background: my provider has six full time kids, three that
    are hers and three full timers, all under school age.  My daughter
    is the youngest at 9 months, the next two are running around at
    15/18 months, the next two at three years, and then one at six yrs.
    She also has two part-timers that come in for a brief while in the
    morning before, the bus picks them up there, and then drops them off
    for a couple of hours in the afternoon.  They are ages 7 and 9.
    She also has a "helper" come in for three or four hours a day.  She
    brings three more kids along with her, ages (aprox.) 11 mths, 3 yrs,
    and what looks to be about 3 or 4 years old.  So we're talking a 
    housefull here.   AND, (yes, there's more...) she was taking in
    an occasional two other kids when their mother got called in for
    substitute teaching.  This was supposed to have stopped some time ago,
    but I know they are there for three hours yesterday and today as just
    an "exceptional/last time" kind of thing.
    
    Now when I interviewed her, it was not so bad as all that. Two 
    kids got added to the mix though before Angeline was born.   When
    I went back to start there, I was a little dissappointed that she
    had added another full timer, and her helper had added one.  But
    I REALLY LIKE this woman and really wanted her.   I've been grimacing
    over the amount of kids since, but so far Angeline has been ok.
    
    Alright (catch my breath), now these things are starting to pile up
    a bit here that I don't like.  Tell me how you feel about them.
    
    .  I dropped Angeline off one morning.  The provider was outside
    hanging up her laundry.  Her three kids and the other two full-timers
    were unattended in the house.  That means the two 15/18 mths old were
    running all around, etc..   She was thrilled she got to hang out
    "two whole loads" of laundry.  I was thinking (I'm so glad I'm late
    this morning and Angeline didn't get left alone in here with this zoo).
    
    .  I came to pick Angeline up one afternoon.  The provider was out
    on the front lawn comforting her 15mth old.  Angeline was in the house
    alone, laying on (the edge!!!!) of the couch.  As I approched provider on
    the lawn, I said "is Angeline sleeping?"  She said, " oh no, she's in
    there on the couch.  Craig was yelling out here and I came out to see
    if he was ok".  I said, "she's alone????" she said "well, I just put
    her down for a quick minute".   Hmmm.... didn't like that one...
    
    . She is contracted with me to have Angeline until 5:30, but I'm 
    generally there by 5:00.  I got there one day at 4:45.  Her three kids
    (the 15mth old, 3yr old, and 6 year old) are out in the front yard 
    playing with the 7 yr old part timer.  I walked in the house, Angeline    
    is sitting on the living room floor crying, the nine year old is at
    the kitchen sink washing something out, the provider is in the
    SHOWER!!!!  Now, I don't have a problem with her leaving my daughter
    in the room with the nine year old for a quick shower (it couldn't have
    waited until I got there???), but then if the nine year old is watching
    my daughter (um, who am I paying here?), who is out watching the other
    kids?   I think they are too young to be out responsible for each
    other.
    
    (So now, I'm starting to get a little nervous about how often or
    how closely these kids are being watched.  Or how much the "older" two
    girls are being relied upon)
    
    . Twice this week, in passing, the provider has mentioned how Angeline
    cried (you can't go out of her sight, I admit) when she had to run out
    to the shed.  She even commented yesterday how one of the other mothers
    had come in to pick up her son and saw Angeline in her walker crying 
    away and she thought her son had done something to hurt her.  But when
    the provider came in, she told her "oh no, it's ok.  She cries whenever
    you leave the room".  Now.... should a baby in a walker (or otherwise)
    be left in a room with two 15mths old running around, and all the
    others?   I mean, I've even been hurt by her 6 year old when he's
    gotten too rambunctious and got too wild around me, just missing my
    daughter at the same time.
    
    Should she be leaving these kids, even for "a minute or two" (I can't
    hang up two loads of laundry in a minute or two) at these ages?????
    
    Please feel free to tell me if I'm being too picky.  I just don't know
    and want advice here.  I'm getting more and more nervous that when
    Angeline is walking, she is going to be left unattended like this.  I
    don't think this is good!   But hey, you can say I'm being
    overprotective, or unreasonable.   I'm about to voice some of concerns
    with her, but need to know from you if they are legitimate.
    
    So, folks... have at it (please and thanks)
    							cj *->

    
      cj.....
    
       Just my observations.
    
       I personally feel the woman has taken on too much responsibility
    and it sounds like she relying on children to take care of children.
    
      It also sounds like very young children are being left alone for
    "minutes" at a time. Anything can happen to baby in a "minute". 
     Your baby could have fallen off that couch. 
    
       Personally I think your bells are ringing for a very good reason,
    your baby, even though this woman may be wonderful and have good
    intentions, may not be safe. She may even get injured "accidently".
    Granted accidents do happen, but what if it was a case where a
    toddler or baby fell and got a concussion, or worse.? Then who's
    responsible? The 9 year old? Or the woman that is "supposed" to
    be caring for these children.
    
         Personally, I would try to talk to her, but if no results I'd
    be looking very quickly for a safer place. She may be wonderful
    but she may also be in it for as much money as she can scrounge.
    
        Just my 2 cents.  I'd be nervous too if I were in your shoes.
    
    
        Rosie 
      

    re -1
    
    I do not think you are being too picky at all.  I personally would not
    want my 9 month old left unattended for anytime in a walker.  9 month
    olds have no fear of anything or knowledge of danger and could pull 
    something off of a table or tip over in the walker or any other number 
    of things.  
    
    I also think it sounds like this person has too many children at 
    once especially under the age of 2.  Isn't the law only 2 under 2?  
    
    I also don't think that a child of that age should be left unattended 
    except in a crib, playpen or sometype enviroment that they are safe and
    protected and a couch doesn't fit that criteria as far as I am
    concerned.
    
    I am sure that I didn't not take my eyes off my daughter at that age 
    once and awhile but it sounds like you have too many examples that you 
    are hearing about where the situation happened.  I also think that if
    you have been given that many examples the probablility that it happens
    more often is high.  
    
    I do realize that finding daycare is an emotional roller coaster so I 
    would probably talk to the women first and get another gut feel of 
    the situation before I changed daycares...... ..
    
    just another opinion.  
    
    lori

Between the number of kids and the business about being left alone (especially
the shower episode), I'd get another day care provider pronto.  What you
describe is inexcusable at the least, and is probably reason to revoke her
license, regardless of your personal feelings for her.  You have every reason
to be concerned.

I have a day care provider I really like.  She occasionally does laundry, but
the laundry is in a room off the side of the play area, so she can keep an eye
on the kids.  She leaves the door open when she goes to the bathroom.  She can
see the kids when she fixes lunch.  Occasionally she has an arriving parent or
one of her college-age sons look after the kids while she goes to fetch
something, but that's about it.  I really like her, but I'm certain that if I
came by and found her in the shower and a nine-year-old watching the kids (some
of whom are awake and outside the house), my son would be out of there.

						Brian

I *never* left Noelle alone when she was in her
walker (and even at that I almost let her roll right
on over to the open oven door while I was checking on my
baking :-( )   If you read much parenting stuff, you've already run
into the folks who thinks kids should never be in
walkers *at all*, much less unsupervised.

And I would be very nervous about (relatively) unsupervised
younger school-age children around toddlers and younger.
The older kids tend to have lots of energy and not a lot
of awareness of the littles.

Angeline is at prime separation-anxiety stage and should be
expected to cry whenever her "special person" is out of sight.
Your provider sounds like she's overburdened.  As I was reading
your note, I started to relax a hair when I read about the helper
until I read that the helper added 3 more kids.  Yikes! 

If I were in your shoes, my daughter would be out of there.

Always willing to give an opinion :-)
- Deb B.

    
    I personally believe that infants need more one-on-one
    attention than *anyone* could provide with that many
    other children in their care; not to mention the unsafe
    incidents that you describe.  
    
    I would find a new daycare arrangement.  
    
    IMHO.  YMMV.                

    
    I agree too... time to find a new daycare.
    
    My daycare provider does not do household chores while she is taking
    care of the kids, except when they are all napping.  When they are
    awake, her time is devoted to the children.
    
    Your provider sounds like she is just doing daycare because she wants
    to stay home with her kids.  My daycare provider is doing daycare
    because she loves kids (her own children are 11 and up).  She does 
    arts and crafts with them, reads to them, and just plays with them 
    all day long.
    
    There was an accident a couple of years ago where a young child 
    slid out of her highchair and was strangled to death by the strap.
    The daycare provider had "left for just a minute".  Thats all it
    takes!  You've named several potentially dangerous situations that
    your daughter has been left in.  I wouldn't hesitate to move her
    to a safer environment.
    
    Oh, and the law in MA regarding the provider/child ratio is 6 children
    per LICENSED provider.  Three children can be under the age of 2 but
    2 of them must be walking.  In centers, the ratio is somewhat
    different... the infant room can have 7 babies with 2 adults.
    
    I don't know about NH laws... 
    
    Karen  

    I would be concerned about the amount of time this woman is spending
    on personal tasks such as laundry and showers. My daycare provided has
    her priorities straight, she takes care of children during the day, it
    is her job. Imagine if you or I tried to do our laundry at work? 8^)

    Sharon (my provided) has a houseful as well, many more than when I
    first interviewed. She's hired her son's fiance and often has one or more 
    of her sons (18+) around helping. I was concerned at first, but when
    ever I show up (unpredictably) things are always calm. Half the time
    someone is holding Lisa (5 mo). Lisa is the baby there, there is one
    other 10mo the rest are 2-4 range. 

    Don't feel bad about questioning things. Listen to your gut reaction.
    It sounds like it's time to start looking for a new situation.
    
    Gail

    
    God, I find it nearly impossible to do laundry and other chores with my 
    19 month old running around - I can't imagine having a house full,
    especially, if some are in the house and some are out.
    
    I would definitely be asking questions and not even hesitate on looking
    for another provider.
    
    When my daughter was first born - she was in a home environment and she
    was the only one there and the one on one attention was good, but after
    "catching" the provider smoking around Alyssa (when she told me that
    she didn't) I didn't hesitate moving Alyssa to a center.  That was just
    one reason for moving her -- you seem to have plenty of reasons why
    Angeline should be somewhere else.
    
    

    
    I could not tolerate my son in that day care situation.  All your
    concerns are so valid. What you describe is, in my opinion, a very
    unsafe household. I don't consider myself over protective but I was
    a bit nervous reading the situations you wrote about. Personally, I 
    wouldn't even  talk with her about the disagreements you have with her 
    until you tell her you are removing Angeline.  Even if she improves her 
    behavior as a result of your complaints it seems to me she her entire 
    style and basic bahavior is very different than yours (and mine.)  I would 
    have a problem with her decision making and would never trust her again. 
    I would constantly worry while my child was with her that if she behaved 
    like this once she would slip back in to it again.  Especially since she 
    doesn't seem to mind or think there is anything wrong with it.
    Is she licensed?  There has to be someone/someplace else that is better
    than this.  Call Work and Family Directions?
    
    Kathy
     

    
    I think it's pretty clear that this woman is not doing a very good
    job with the daycare. I don't know what it is you like about her but
    the situations you describe sound very unsafe and very unprofessional.
    
    Children that young should never be left unattended unless it was an
    emergency and even then like someone said you put them in a safe place
    such as a crib or playpen. 
    
    Try not to think that she is your only option. I know it's hard to
    switch sometimes but IMO you can only find something better. At least
    look around and see what else there is and then you'll have something
    more to compare your current situation with.
    
    Good luck, I hope things work out for you.
    
    
                    Barbara
    

    I couldn't imagine anyone with half a brain leaving a nine month old 
    unattended on a couch.  Sorry to use such strong language but I'm
    amazed at your note.  A shower, while she's working?????
    
    Run, don't walk to remove your child from that dangerous situation!!!
    
    Nancy

    I read your note and was getting more and more horrified at each
    incident.  I too would run out of there.
    
    When you think of the incredible dangers that children can get into, it
    is amazing that nothing has happened, YET.
    
    Please don't give her a chance.  Find someone who is licensed and does
    this for a career, and not because it is a convenient way to make a
    little extra cash.
    
    judy

    Well, I guess those were the replies I expected.  I really needed to
    know I wasn't being too picky. Obviously these things were bothering
    me and bells were ringing.
    
    The reason I've been hesitant is, this provider (and I don't know
    how she manages it!) really spends a lot of time with those kids! 
    You should see some of the projects she does and games they play
    and cooking they do!  I don't know have the imagination to create
    the things this woman does with bits of paper, string, cloth, anything
    you name it!  But I have said I wish I hadn't met her until Angeline
    was older.   I've walked in there at 1:00 and every one of the kids
    I've listed are all down for naps.  Every one of them every day!  It
    is amazing.  
    
    But I have never liked the total amount of kids.  Oh, and she is in
    New Hampshire. Their laws are different from MA, but not a lot.  
    
    There was a further development this morning.  One of the other mothers
    is pregnant with a baby due in July.  In September that baby will be
    going under her care also.  I've kind of been expecting this to happen
    and I expect this will be it for me.  I told her I was going to think
    this over, but I think she got the message this morning that I don't 
    like it.
    
    She feels, her oldest will be going in first grade in the fall. 
    Angline will be a year old in September and "should be walking by then", 
    so an infant wouldn't be a problem.  I pointed out that she then would
    have three toddlers running around.  She said she could handle it, but
    I said it wasn't just a matter of her handling it, *I* think it's too
    much.  So I just left it as I'm going to have to think this one
    through.
    
    It's hard, because this is truly a sweet woman and she's going to take
    it all personally.  Perhaps she should, I don't know.  She has a
    history of working in an actual daycare center and has dealt with a
    lot more than she is now.  I do feel she is taking too much for granted
    though.  Such as, "knowing" Angeline won't roll off the couch.  She
    walks away from her own 15mth old on the changing table because she
    "knows" he won't roll off.  And I do say, there are things I know
    Angeline won't do...but I would never take that chance with someone
    else's kids.   
    
    I think the fact that this new baby is coming has given me my way
    out.  You know though, it doesn't feel *all* right though.  I do feel
    there is something she is going to miss, especially since every one
    of those kids are the sweetest, happiest, best behaved I've ever seen.
    There isn't one you could call a brat or trouble.  Her own three are
    so loving and giving.  If it could only have been less kids.
    
    Well, here I go, daycare shopping again.  This really s**ks... :-(
    But I just keep telling myself in the long run I'll feel better.  
    
    							cj *->

    CJ:
    
    You are absolutely doing the right thing to find a new daycare
    situation.  If your current daycare provider balks or seems hurt when
    you give your notice, just ask her (politely) if she has watched any
    episodes of RESCUE 911 lately.  
    
    One unattended minute is all it takes for a child to be seriously
    injured or even killed.  Daycare is a serious business, but it seems to
    me that your provider is only taking the money seriously, not the
    consequences of too many children.  In California, there are limits on
    the number of children of specific ages a home provider can take in,
    and they are much lower than what you are seeing.  
    
    My opinion -- get Angeline out of there as soon as you can find someone
    more suitable.  Great crafts and projects are doing much good for a 9
    month old, and actually may present a danger to your little girl, where
    there are frequent episodes of unsupervised children -- imagine a 3
    year old with a scissors, glue, a baby, and no adult watching.  Gives me 
    the willies just to think about it.  Heck, my son is 7 today, and I
    don't think I would trust him alone with a 9 month old and a sharp
    object!
    
    M.
    

    
        Talking about 911. Even though I didn 't have to call in this
    situation it was scarey. My boys were about 2 and 4 years old. The
    4 year old's shoes were untied. I knelted down to tie his shoes , I
    told the 2 year old to stay next to me. Well, while I was tying the
    shoes I heard a screech of tires and horns blowing. I looked and 
    the 2 year old wasn't next to me (couldn't have been a minute) He
    had run in the road in front of a car. Fortunately the driver saw 
    him in time to slam on breaks and horns were tooting to alert others
    that there was a baby in the road running. 
    
        My heart was in my throat. I shook for hours later thinking
    about all sorts of stuff that could of happened just because I
    didn't make sure he was in a situation where he couldn't 
    do that. 
    
        Rosie

    Hmmmm.... M.  that's another good point (pardon the pun! :-) ).
    I really do expect she is good with the kids with the projects
    and safety, but do I know that for certain?  No I don't, and 
    unfortunately I can no longer have blind faith.
    			
    						cj *->

    re.74
    
    Umm,,, yes, yet another point.  Her yard is not fenced.  Not
    a requirement in NH unless you want to be licensed.  That was
    an issue that was in the back of my mind to be addressed when
    (if???? :-) ) Angeline started walking.   
    
    I really am glad my feelings were validated here.  I was letting
    each little (little?  I wasn't sure that was an apt description,
    either) start to build up and was ready to just "discuss" those
    with her.  But with this new baby coming....I don't see a resolution
    other than to move Angeline.
    
    						cj *->

    Also, I'm not sure but when I used home care in NH I thought someone
    could have up to 3 unrelated children and legally be unlicensed.  She
    may be meeting that requirement during the bulk of the day, but when
    we factor in the before and after school care, she no longer does.
    
    My daycare sent home an interesting article about limiting the use of
    walkers, high chairs, and cribs.  It claimed that babies who can roam
    about safely learn quicker.  
    
    In light of this note, it made for some interesting thought.
    
    judy
    

	CJ,

	One thing about kids - they love to surprise you.

	She may believe her 15 month old won't move off the changing table,
	but that's only becuase he hasn't so far.  Same for Angeline on
	the couch.  

	I had to stop putting either of my kids on beds or couches at
	4 months.  I don't know why she thinks a nine month old is 
	safe there, but there will *certainly* come a day that she is
	not.  I wouldn't want that to be the day she left the room.

	I feel for you in your situation, but I do think you are
	making the right decision.

	(and, if I might add, I'd *not* let it go until September.  I
	wouldn't be comfortable with the level of risk around her home.)

	Karen

    
    Cj,
    
    	I used to live in NH and I think someone like your
    provider, taking in so many children, should 
    be licensed. If licensed, she can only take in 6 kids in
    total and only 2 kids under 18 months. I am sure she is
    aware of the law since she worked in a center before
    and I am sure she found a loop-hole ;-)
    This is just me, but I would not trust anyone not licensed
    to take care of a kid under 3. Licensing involves more
    than just paying taxes, it requires safety requirements,
    education (first-aid, emergency treatment), etc.
    
    
    Eva

    I use a daycare provider who is not licensed.  I have the highest
    amount of trust for her to treat my child as well and possibly better
    than I treat him.  She has taken infant cpr and child emergency
    treatment classes in the past 2 months and is willing to work with me, 
    give me suggestions on what Aaron is going through and take suggestions
    from me.  She has two daughters ages 6 and 4 who adore my son, plus
    another child who will be 3 years old next month.  The way I see it, 
    just because a person is licensed doesn't mean she/he is the very best
    option, and just because a person isn't licensed doesn't mean she/he is
    the worst option.  You have to use your common sense and trust your
    judgement.  Sorry about the rathole, but I had to say something since
    it seems that my choice in daycare is being questioned (indirectly).
    
    And CJ, from what I've seen of your notes, you can trust your
    judgement.  You seem to have it together in the care of your daughter,
    just continue listening to both your heart and your head.
    
    sandy

    CJ,
    
    Here's another possibility no one's mentioned ... the number of
    children that she cares for is illegal.  Period.  Plain and simple. 
    Now, if the STATE finds out and looks into this, she is IMMEDIATELY
    shut down to 3 children, and possibly NONE if that's what they wanted
    to do.  Ask me, I've been there.  So, you walk in one day, or get a
    phone call, and Cindy says "Well, sorry, but the state came by, and I
    can't watch Angeline anymore.  Sorry".  What do you do then??  This
    really and truly happened to us ... Anne was WONDERFUL with the kids -
    but there were ~10 of them (ha, in your trailer park, no less!). 
    SOMEONE turned her in (got her name off the mailbox, may have seen the
    kids playing in the yard.  Every one of those kids was well cared for,
    and happy and had a *BLAST*!!!  She'd been doing this for YEARS, maybe
    even decades (she was an older woman).  And suddenly one day I got a
    phone call at work to come pick up Chris and that I couldn't bring him
    back anymore.
    
    You think looking for daycare sucks, try looking for daycare to start
    "tomorrow"!
    
    WHY do you like Cindy?  For reasons for yourself, or for things that
    Angeline would choose if she could?  WHO/What would your little girl
    look for in someone?  More than a couple times I've found that my kids
    were a lot happier with the daycare person than I was.  I wasn't stuck
    with them all day, so I let them have SOME say in where they are all
    day, and what they're doing.
    
    ALSO, with summer upon us, extrapolate her casualness, and toss in a
    kiddie pool ... ummm, probably about the time Angeline starts to crawl. 
    Now how's it feel?
    
    I can recommend someone not TOO far from your house (off of Rte 111A by
    the fire station), who, when I was looking, wanted to be able to find a
    child to just dote on and spend all her time and love on.  
    
    But please, pull Angeline as soon as you can .... she deserves more
    love and attention than that ... I don't imagine she really gives a
    hoot about finger puppets and glue right now (unless of course they
    taste good! (-;)
    
    There's a thousand people who do daycare.  Probably 900 of them are
    "wrong" for what you're looking for.  But more than 1 can be "right".
    
    Good Luck!
    Me

     I agree with Sandy, a license does not make a care provider better. I
    don't even know all reasons my provider is not licensed, and I don't
    really care. More importantly is the sense of security I have observing
    her and the environment that my daughter is in. No government agency is
    going to pass out a piece of paper that would cause more piece of mind. 
    To the best of my knowledge, it is not illegal in NH to be unlicensed. 
    
    
    Gail

    It is not necessary in NH to be licensed, but I think there is a
    limit of perhaps four children if unlicensed?   I've forgotten now.
    
    I know, one woman I spoke with met all the requirements for licensing
    but had to fence in her yard to get it.  The cost was something they
    could not afford, and she had children full-time, so she didn't get
    licensed.  She had completed all the necessary medical courses.
    
    						cj *->

    My daycare provider is in Merrimack NH, and just recently became licensed.
    The legal limit for an unlicensed provider is 3 children who are not 
    related to the person providing the care.
    
    There are also limits for a licensed provider (as I'm sure someone has
    already mentioned in this note string).  In NH, I believe this limit is 6
    children, with ONLY 3 of the 6 under 2 years old.  There is a slight
    loophole to this rule in NH which allows a licensed provider to have 4 
    children under 2 years old if the total number of children is 4.  My
    assumption with these limits is that they are in addition to any
    children related to the childcare provider.

    I had thought it was only two under 2 years old.  Something about
    if there was a fire, you could only take one under each arm?  
    
    						cj *->

    SOmething came up at my daycare the other day, and I'm pretty upset.
    
    Seems that Holly, my (rough and tumble) 4-year-old, had a bruise on
    her fanny, near the base of her spine.  My day care provider was
    helping her after a trip to the bathroom, and she noticed the bruise.
    Elaine asked my daughter how she got it, and Holly said, "Mommy hit me
    with the wooden spoon."
    
    This did not happen.
    
    Naturally, my sitter called me *at work*  to tell me what happened. 
    Naturally, I told her that I didn't know where the bruise came from,
    only that I didn't put it there and I certainly did *not* spank Holly
    with a wooden spoon.  Elaine says she "has to believe the child."
    
    She also said that she noticed other bruises on Holly "and it seems to
    be kind of a pattern.  She has a couple and they fade, and then she
    gets some new ones.  I've noticed this over the past couple of months." 
    She also told me that "any other day care would have just reported you
    to DSS."
    
    Now I really don't know what to do.  I feel like I've been accused
    unjustly, but obviously, the more you try to defend yourself in a
    situation like this the more "guilty" you look.  Is changing daycare
    providers worth it.  My kids have been with this lady since they were
    infants, literally, besides she is a neighbor and I don't want to start
    a big neighborhood fight with people picking sides and awful stuff like
    that.
    
    When I asked Holly where she got the bruise on her bottom, she said she
    fell in our wading pool.  I should add that she doesn't have very good
    verbal skills yet, and sometimes it's hard to understand her speech. 
    If you ask her the same question twice, in exactly the same way, it is
    likely you will get two different answers.  Not to excuse anything, but
    she just turned 4, and I seem to recall reading that that behavior is
    not unheard of.
    

    
    Are there other kids at the daycare with your daughter?  Could they be
    giving her thise bruises.  
    
    My daughter is 21 months and every so often I find bruises on her
    (normal for this age, I believe, always running too fast and falling)
    but sometimes I find bite marks on her compliments of the other kids at
    the school.
    
    I wouldn't think twice about moving to a different daycare.  If the
    provider is believing that you are abusing your children, it may not
    be too long before she does call DSS.
    
    

    "wading pool" could easily sound like "wooden spoon", fwiw.

    
       I agree with .88.  "wading pool" and "wooden spoon" sound the
    same. 
    
       I'm not sure what I would do, but I think some communication
    is a must here. If she feels that there's a "possiblity" of 
    child abuse here then sooner or later something "big" may come
    out of it, something that may hurt a lot of people. I know if
    I believed a parent was abusing their child I would be trying
    to decide how to stop the abuse. But, if this is just a
    misunderstanding it's still important. This could get out of hand
    from all the stress that has been created. 
    
        Maybe you could set up a time where you and your husband
    could talk to her? Maybe, you could seek the help of a child
    physcologist. Hmmm, I'm not even sure. All I know is that it's
    got to be a difficult situation for you and the day-care provider.
    I also feel it can't be brushed off as "oh well, it was a mistake"
    I'd be willing to "bet" that she's going to pay "extra" attention
    to everything. I actually would blame her, so you definately need
    to get the help of someone who could intervene here. She sounds
    like she's pretty sure there is abuse, she needs reassurance
    that there's no abuse. It sounds like your at your wits end
    and angry at being accused of something you know your innocent
    of. As long as it's bothering both of you there needs to 
    be some resolution here.
    
        Take care,
    
        Rosie
    
        

    
    I can understand how wading pool and wooden spoon could sound similar
    but what about the "mommy hit me with"?
    
    

    say like this??
    
    "what happened here"
    
    "my hit da wading pool.." (sound like Mommy hit with wooden spoon wooden 
    spoon to provider)
    
    
    Also... and I'm not saying this is true.. but if you take your daughter
    out of that provider's care, wouldn't that give the provider more
    reason to think that you actually did hit Holly? (by the way, I love the
    name!)  She MAY just think "I accused her of hitting her child, so she
    took her out of my care.  That says to me that she DID hit her child."
    
    Don't know what else you could do, except sit down and have a long
    conversation with her.
    
    Hope it works out.
    
    Holly
    

    I'm not sure how to ask this, but - you said the sitter is a neighbor -
    is there any reason that she might want to be picking a fight with
    you, or making you angry?  Or is she perhaps susceptible to melodramatic
    TV shows/magazines that may be giving a distorted idea of how to
    recognize child abuse?  Don't misinterpret - I do believe that child
    abuse is a real and serious problem.  But her reason for leaping to accuse
    you of it as you've described doesn't seem to me to be very rational.

    I've spent a fair amount of time in my son's preschool room, and 1) many
    (most?) kids at that age have bruises, scabs, etc. from perfectly innocent
    causes and 2) kids at that age tell all sorts of amazing and obviously
    fantasy stories.  Surely your sitter must realize this!  My son's preschool
    teachers often tell a parent at the end of the day "You won't believe
    what your child told us today!".  For example, my son frequently assures
    them that he is *never* asleep before midnight (I think that maybe twice
    in his life he's been awake past 9:30 :).  But that's ok, because he also
    tells *me* that he *never* falls asleep at rest time at preschool, even
    though it sometimes takes me 15 minutes to get him completely awake if
    I pick him up near the end of rest time...

    My immediate reaction, as others have already said, is that you'll have
    to try to talk this out with your sitter.  If I were in your place, I
    don't think I could face continuing to take my kids to her if I
    couldn't resolve this.  However, I think she can make a report to DSS
    regardless of whether the kids are in her care.  If you want to head her
    off from making that report, you'll have to calm her fears.  Is there
    maybe a calm, wise mutual friend of yours in the neighborhood that could
    help you work this out?  Bringing an additional person into it has some
    problems, but I wonder whether the two of you would be too emotionally
    involved to manage to resolve it on your own.  And, neighborhoods being
    what they are :), I doubt that you'll be able to keep it a secret for
    long anyway.

		cheryl

I would try to get to the source of the problem.  I would try talking to
your sitter (maybe with your daughter present).  If you have noticed a
pattern with the bruises, I would try and locate the source:  A new kid,
a new toy/piece of equipment (the babysitter?).  I would also talk to the 
other parents.  I would also try and get more information from your daughter,
in a non-confrontational manner.  You should get this resolved ASAP or 
before you know it, you'll have social workers knocking at your door.

Lori

   Without knowing anything about either person involved, this could be a
   simple matter of fear on the provider's part too...  
   
   A parent could just as easily believe that new, unidentified bruises
   were received at the daycare facility, and not the other way around.
   If it were the parent who noticed the new bruises first instead of the
   provider, what might have happened?  What sort of answers to similar
   questions might a child this young have given to the parent?
   
   Perhaps the provider is afraid they will be accused of something, and
   is trying to take pro-active steps to identify the source of the
   bruises?
   
   Just looking at it from a different angle,
   
   - Tom

    Thanks to all who have replied, both here and off-line.  I appreciate
    the respect that everyone showed.
    
    The situation is slowly straightening itself out.  I haven't really
    spoken to my sitter, but I did speak to both of the kids to remind them
    of the importance of telling the truth.  I seem to remember reading in
    Penelope Leach that young children can't/don't differentiate between
    fantasy and reality, which is why you have to monitor their "intake" of
    movies, videos, and so forth very carefully.  She says that a young
    child may say either what they wish was true ("Johnny spilled the sugar
    bowl, not me!") or blurt out the first thing that's in their heads
    ("Aunt Sue, you're so *fat*!")  I also wonder if my son said something
    to her ("Holly, if you don't quit bothering me, Mom's gonna hit you
    with the wooden spoon.").  Until I got wise to myself, I did not know
    that a swat on the fanny with a wooden spoon was considered child
    abuse.  I'd been following the advice that I read somewhere that said
    *if you decide to spank, for whatever reason,* you should use a paddle
    or something.  The thought was that the child should associate your
    hands with love.  Well, so much for that idea.  I don't want to go down
    the spanking/no spanking rathole, but I am beginning to realize that
    because of my own background, I should avoid physical discipline at all
    costs.  Again, YMMV, and please DON'T turn this into another spanking
    discussion!!!
    
    Also, Holly has recently started jumping on the furniture -- despite
    repeated warnings and time-outs.  Sure enough, on Saturday, she jumped
    off the sofa in the basement onto a pile of pillows on the floor, and
    when she landed, the pillows slipped a little, and she hit her fanny
    right on the floor.  Well, now I know where she got one of them,
    anyway.  I supervise the kids as closely as I can, but obviously I
    can't be everywhere.  How did the rest of you handle this?  (I'm
    assuming I'm not the only Noter whose kids jump around like jumping
    jacks!)
    
    Kate
    
    

    Kate,
    
    Glad to hear that things are starting to straighten out.  My kids were
    usually pretty accurate, at that age, in telling "the whole story", so
    I never had to deal with this then.  But NOW!  Geez!!  Chris is 10, and
    messing around at daycare, and bragging to the other kids there, and
    one thing led to another, as they were trying to "outdo" each other,
    and in the end, he said, in front of ~20 other kids, that I "throw him
    and my {his} baby brother around the room, ALL the time!".  The people
    at the daycare pulled him aside, talked to him, realized he was more
    than anything, caught up in the moment, and dropped it all.  BUT, the
    other kids didn't know that, went home and told their parents, and in
    the end a case was filed with DYS.  
    
    As you realized - there is no defense.  It was my word against Chris',
    and the more I said, the worse it looked for me.  From Chris'
    perspective, he was worried to death, and completely confused why
    everyone was making such a big deal about it (what, in his mind, was
    just some story he made up, and nothing "real").  
    
    It took a few months for it to all get settled, but eventually a very
    nice woman from DYS came to the house, talked to me and my boyfriend,
    talked to Chris and Jason, watched Jonathan for a little while, and I
    *THINK* probably talked to Jonathan's Dr., then said it was clear to
    her that the whole thing was jsut a miscommunication mess, and
    explained to Chris about telling the TRUTH, and the importance in doing
    it "quietly" if anything were to happen.  He piped up and complained
    about spankings, and she asked him how, and with what (hand, fist, paddle
    whatever - always been an open hand), and WHY he got spankings.  Then
    she explained to him, the difference between getting a spanking for
    doing something bad, and being hit just because someone wants to hurt
    you.  I don't know what it all meant to him in the larger scope of
    things, but it sure was reassuring to me, to see that they're just not
    out to persecute anyone who disciplines their children.
    
    Anyway, it all went well, and I was really impressed with how
    objectively it was all handled, and how caring she was around the
    children.  It was still a bit unnerving, but all turned out fine in the
    end.
    
    SO, try to explain the honesty piece to the kids, but then trust in the
    system a little too.  
    
    Good luck!

    
       Kate,
    
       I'm glad to hear things are looking up. It's tough being a parent. 
    
       Rosie

    One thing that Carrie's daycare mom and I did was to report bruises
    that happened on "our watch" to the other person when I dropped her
    off/picked her up.  Given that my kids have very fair skin, every ding
    shows up in ugly livid color.  It was easier on both of us just to
    report the bumps and bruises of an active child to each other and laugh
    about it.  
    
    meg

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

I recently changed care providers for my children she has been with us 
for four days.  The children are twins that are nearly 10 months old.  The 
provider has prior child care experience and had very good references -- 
although she has not had experience with twins.

Tuesday night I got home and I noticed that the children were unusually happy
to see me -- jumping up and down, vocalizing for attention, etc.  My provider
told me that they both had a little diaper rash -- but that she was treating it
and not to be concerned.  That night my husband was on diaper duty and noticed
that the rash was not small but significant on both of them (not to be too
graphic but it covered both cheeks and was medium pink color.)  

Later that same evening, I gave one child a bottle before bedtime.  She took
about half and then promptly spit a ton of it back (about 2-3 oz.).  I didn't
think much of it at the time -- although she hadn't spit anything back since
she was about four months old.

Wednesday morning my husband told the provider that we wanted her to change
both children more frequently and to use the desitin ointment liberally.  When
I got home on Wednesday night I was greeted by both children jumping up and
down which quickly changed into crying.  I asked her how the day went.  She 
said that they were both quite cranky, had not enjoyed their baths and that 
she hoped that the neighbors didn't think that she was "killing" them 
based on how much they had cried.  (I was beginning to feel uncomfortable -- 
asking myself, why is she saying this.)

I asked how their diaper rashes were and how they were eating and drinking, if
they were pulling on their ears (possible ear infection -- the usual kinds of
questions.)  She said the rashes were about the same and that they were eating
very well.  

After she left, we were playing on the floor and one child's mood changed very
dramatically from happy and laughing to crying.  I picked her up to comfort her
and checked her diaper.  Sure enough she needed a change.  I put her on the
changing table and she really began crying hard -- as if she was expecting
something painful.  I clean her and rediapered her and she was OK.  The rash
had gotten more red and definitely looked very painful.  I can see why the
baths were unpleasant.

Later last night I also changed the other child.  The diaper rash was also
significantly worse.

I gave them both their evening bottles and the same child that spit back on
Tuesday evening spit back alot again.  The only thing I can think of is that
the provider is just filling them up with too much food.

I have family in the area that likes to stop by periodically during the day.
Sometimes they call ahead -- sometimes they just stop by for a quick visit with
the kids.  This provider asked that they always call first -- this struck me
as a little odd -- my other provider always liked having the company and people
around to help entertain the kids.  I'm beginning to wonder why she wants
to control the visits.

Well, what do you noters think?   I have mixed feelings about the situation and
have begun to search again for a new provider.  Am I over-reacting? Too
sensitive?  It just seems so strange to me to have one child spit back two days
in a row and for both of them to have SERIOUS diaper rash. Also, they might cry
a little during the weekends -- but never to the extent that someone would be
concerned about what a neighbor might think...

I'd be most grateful to read comments/opinions.

Signed,

Just needing a sanity check

    .99
    
    No - you are not overreacting! Any amount of concern on your
    part should be taken seriously.  I would feel the same if
    I were in this situation!
    
    If I were you, I would take action of some sort.  Whether it 
    be to look for a new provider, have someone check on the sitter
    from time to time UNANNOUNCED, or whatever! 
    
    What concerned me the most were 2 things: #1, the phrase about
    the neighbors thinking she was killing the kids because they 
    were crying so much and #2, that she wants visitors (your friends/
    family who stop by) to call first.
    
    Don't wait any longer.  I'm not saying anything horrendous will
    happen, but why live with the worry when you are truly uncomfortable
    with the situation.
    
    My girlfriend has a new Nanny (live out) who is in her early 50's
    and takes care of her 2.5 yr old and 6 mo. old.   They treat her
    like family and can't compliment her enough with how she cares for
    the children.  YOu should feel this kind of confidence in your 
    child care.  They are even taking her with them to Cancun, Mexico
    next month for vacation!!  She's thrilled.  You need to find 
    a truly caring provider who puts the interest of you children FIRST!
    
    Best of luck in your future decisions.
    
    Julie
    

    One thing I remember from the FamilyWorks book that I got when I first
    started looking for daycare was to be wary of anyone that prohibited
    drop-in visits.  
    
    If possible, could you or your husband drop in at home for lunch or
    during midday?  You might also ask the caregiver to start a notebook
    for each child telling you what the kids ate, when they slept, what 
    their activities were, etc.  The books that I got for both of my kids
    from daycare even stated when they had diapers changed, when they had
    bowel movements, times that they ate, etc.  That let me feel good that
    they got timely attention and be aware of any changes in schedules that
    were happening.
    
    Another thing that might help gather information on the diapers would
    be to empty the diaper pail before you leave one morning and see how
    many are there when you get home.
    
    You also don't state what instructions you've given regarding feeding
    the kids.  Has the caregiver been told what, when and how much you want
    them fed?  What instructions have you given regarding snacks.
    
    Irene
    

    Pull them out today.  Take vacation or whatever or use relatives
    until you get new daycare.  I would not leave my child even one
    more day in a place I thought they may even POSSIBLY be being
    mistreated.
    
    Janice

    
    From the looks of note .99, the provider goes to their home
    to care for the children.
    
    I agree that you should not wait for something to happen.
    Could any of the relatives you mentioned (the ones who stop
    by for a visit) take care of your twins for a while until
    you can find better childcare?
    
    The more I have thought about this, the more I worry for you.
    
    julie

    I agree with .102.  If I was the mom of those kids, I would not
    let her near the kids again.  Your kids can't verbalize whats going on
    but it certainly sounds like they aren't happy.  Find someone quick and
    give this person her walking papers.
    You and your spouse need to find someone new quick - if you don't have
    anyone else to watch the kids then take vacation time or something but
    don't leave them with someone like that.
    
    Based on what you've written - it sounds like a serious problem.  Don't
    risk your kids' health/happiness/safety over this one!!!!!  
    
     Nancy

    .99
    
       Personally I don't want to scare you but what I read gave me the
    chills. I read it earlier and didn't want to 'over react'. But,
    there's a lot of important 'clues' here that would say 'change this
    caregiver immediately' and have the children checked out by their
    pediatricians. Which is probably over reacting, I haven't seen the
    rashes.
    
        But, the 'clues' that tell me something's terribly wrong.
    
         1. She wants people to call?  Why. I read in the Readers Digest
    that this is a 'sign' that the day care provider may not want the
    parents or relatives 'seeing' what's happening.
    
         2. Also a 10 month old baby that suddenly changes 'mood' ? 
    
         3. A baby suddenly being 'pertrified' somethings bad going to
    happen?  Baby's don't suddenly get 'petrified', if anything babys
    are the bravist of humans. 
    
         4. A rash? And, she's telling you not to 'worry'. If a baby has
    a rash then you need to 'worry' about clearing it up. Rashes are
    painful. I know if I had a rash that was sore I'd want it taken care
    of. 
    
         5.  Probably the most important. She was 'concerned' that the 
    neighbors might think she was killing the babies with all the crying.
    They had to have been crying very loudly. I would be VERY concerned
    with this person. 
    
       I would take a few days off and get someone else. Your babies are
    too important to let this go on.
    
         Rosie

    I'll play a little devil's advocate here.
    
    1.  has anything recently changed in your kids diets?  I gave Carrie a
    DREADFUL diaper rash that no amount of desitin or other ointments
    helped by feeding her apricots.  It took until the apricots ran out
    before we made the connection and the rash was at the weeping sore
    stage by then.  (more things to feel guilty about)  My Dr. said that
    high-acid foods are often culprits.  She hated to have the area cleaned
    up and hated baths more as the water made the rash sting.
    
    2.  I don't like her wanting a call before your family drops by.  But
    maybe she is concerned if she took the kids out for a walk, that they
    might come by and be concerned by nobody being home at the moment.  The
    days of leaving notes on doors are long gone in my part of the world.
    
    3.  I don't know about the spitting up thing, but maybe they are coming
    down with something, and a new provider can also stir things up. 
    Lolita went with a family to Hondurus this year to watch their two year
    old.  She had watched her a few evenings in the US, with no problems but
    Allie decided that not having "the daddies" around when they went scuba
    diving was a good excuse for going on a hunger strike and crying until
    she threw up the moment Miho and Stan would come through the door.  I
    know Lolita would never hurt a child, or even yell at one, and Stan and
    Miho knew that as well, but it was a stressful time for all concerned.
    
    3. I second counting diapers if you are concerned about their getting
    changed enough.  
    
    meg
    
    3.  

    .106
    
    I don't know about anyone else, but you could take the rash AND the
    spitting up out of this equation, and I'd still be very concerned.
    Like I said in my previous note, the two things that concerned me 
    the most was the fact she wants visitors to call and that she was
    concerned the neighbors might think she was killing the kids because
    they were crying so much.
    
    Instead, I would hope that a care provider would be sincerely
    interested in finding out what was wrong or why was making them cry
    versus worrying about the neighbors and what they might think (and
    then verbalizing this to the parents!).
    
    Regarding calling before visitors - I think there are occasions 
    where a call is nice before popping in, but don't most daycare
    (both inhome and centers) allow parents to stop in unannounced?
    Why not your provider?  Be suspicious, even if it's just gutt 
    feeling you're going on.  You can only lose if you let things
    continue the way they are.
    
    A couple of questions for the basenoter:
     - can I ask the age of the provider?
     - did she call you or your husband at work when the babies were
       crying (the day she worried about what the neighbors would think)?
       
    

How about dropping in unannounced at lunch? Then you can see what they are
eating, how much, and check out the general atmosphere. If she objects, you can
point out that you are concerned with the rash and throwing up, and want to see
if the lunch has anything to do with it. 

But if it is really eating at you, don't push it, just try to find someone else
for them. This is definitely one area where you want to feel confident. If it
turns out the kids still have the same problems just because of getting settled
in, chalk it up to experience. Neither you nor your provider want a tense
situation, and while she may not be thrilled that you are leaving, she should at
least understand that you are trying to do the best for your kids.

    The base note concerns me, but I can state without a doubt that my
    usually very happy 10 month would not like being left alone with a new
    person, period.  He wants to be with Momma, Pappa, or Bonnie (his
    daycare provider since he was 8 weeks old).  Even when his aunts,
    uncles and grandpa comes to visit he'll sit and play with them if he
    sees Steve or me around, but if we leave the room he immediately goes
    after us!  It's possible they're having a form of seperation anxiety
    with the new caregiver and considering there are two of them, they may
    be "egging" each other on (one crys, the other one starts...)
    
    Or it could be that your provider isn't what you thought she was
    originally.  I would try dropping in on them myself, or having someone
    that I trusted drop in on her and do it regularly enough to keep her on
    her toes but not to think "todays Wed., they come by right around
    1:30...".
    
    From day one we had Bonnie write down when and how much Aaron eats and
    when he sleeps.  That way we could take note when he wasn't getting
    enough (like with this last ear infection, he kept pushing the bottle
    away until he was starved..) and we could notice changes in his
    schedule, shorter morning naps until finally he started skipping them
    all together.  I would recommend all parents do this, I find it really
    useful.
    
    sandy
          

>    Like I said in my previous note, the two things that concerned me 
>    the most was the fact she wants visitors to call and that she was
>    concerned the neighbors might think she was killing the kids because
>    they were crying so much.

Just last night, I was thinking that our kids were crying so much that
our neighbors would think something was dreadfully wrong.
    
>    Regarding calling before visitors - I think there are occasions 
>    where a call is nice before popping in, but don't most daycare
>    (both inhome and centers) allow parents to stop in unannounced?

The caregiver wanted calls from other relatives, not from parents
(if I remember correctly).

    I live next door to a child you would swear was being abused whenever
    his mother leaves him with anyone, including us.  He is just shy of one
    year.  I should note I have been around Austin since he was born.  I
    could say you would think he was being killed, even when his
    grandmother watches him.
    
    meg

The following is being posted for "Just needing a sanity check", the
author of 70.99.  If you wish to contact the author by mail, please send your
message to me and I will forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will
be forwarded with your name attached unless you request otherwise. 

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

Hi noters,

It's me the basenoter.  Thank you all SO much for your thoughtful and timely
responses.  Basically I think you've confirmed for me that I'm not crazy and
I'm not too sensitive.  

To answer a few questions:

The caregiver is female and is 27 years old.  She is CPR certified, a certified
home health aide and has taken care of infants, toddlers, as well as folks who
are handicapped (differently abled).

My husband called me this morning and told me about another incident that makes
me feel like I need to make a change --

She was putting the children in their highchairs for breakfast at 7:30 -- 
(note I had changed their diapers at 6:30 am when they woke up --)  He doesn't
have the greatest nose in the world but even he could smell something was up
:-).  He asked her if she had changed them.  She said no.  He asked her if she
had checked them.  She said no.  He then had to tell her to check them -- and
sure enough he was right -- one had to be changed.  I guess you can't make
someone take initiative -- 

This just isn't a good fit.

I'm in the process of following up with some of the other candidates.  

Thanks again for all of your support.  I'll let you know what happens.

    
    If you REALLY want to be sure, and need an immediate answer, then rent
    if you don't own) set up a video camera somewhere it's a little less
    "noticeable" and tape a few hours of interaction with her and your
    children.  The worst she's going to do is quit anyway, which doesn't
    sound like that'd break your heart.  And you'd KNOW the type of care
    your children are/aren't getting.
    
    For the rash, try adding some baking soda to their bath water (it's
    very soothing), and try a little antibiotic ointment to help clear it.
    ALso, eliminate the possibility that it's a yeast infection - which
    isn't going to clear with normal ointments.
    
    Isn't ~a year a time of high anxiety anyway??  It could really be
    "nothing" more than adjustment.
    
    And I'm SURE that my neighbors think that I must be dismembering my
    children at times -- as sure as I am that my neighbors are dismembering
    their children.  But that's never the case ....... kids can just scream
    loud! (-:
    
    But, if you're this uncomfortable, then you owe it to your kids to feel
    safer with who their with.  IN the meantime, ask the relatives to come
    over more (-:
    
    GOOD LUCK!!
    Patty

One thing I hear time and time again from people using sitters / day care is
that they aren't comfortable with their care giver but don't do anything
about it for ages.  When they do, they are so relieved, and their own stress
level plummets.

Granted good sitters are hard to find, but as a result you are not doing the
sitter any harm, since they can usually replace your children very quickly.

Given the diaper rash and the sitting in poop, it certainly sounds as if
they are not getting changed as often as they should.

If you are uncertain about your current sitter now, you will ALWAYS be uncertain
about her ... Change for your own state of mind.

If you are unable to get a new sitter quickly, take your own diapers, identify
them, and ask for them to be held for you to inspect (mucousy stools whatever)
but what you really want to do is COUNT them.  That will confirm how often
they sit around in soiled diapers.

    To 70.99 - have you called your doctor about the rash?  Connor had
    a rash that wouldn't get better after a few days of OTC creams so I called
    the Doctor to see what else I could do and he called in a prescription
    for me (Nystat (?) cream).  The cream started working within hours.
    
    At the daycare where Connor goes, they keep a chart for each
    infant.  The chart lists the times and amounts of what he would eat and also
    the time of diaper changes (and type of output).  This was nice as I
    got to look quickly and see what he had been doing all day.
    
    Karen

The following is being posted for "Just needing a sanity check", the author
of 70.99.  If you wish to contact the author by mail, please send your message
to me and I will forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be
forwarded with your name attached unless you request otherwise. 

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

Hi,

It's me, the basenoter with the babysitter problem -- well, problem no more!
Over the weekend we contacted a few of the women that we had interviewed
earlier in the week and invited a couple back for second interviews.  I liked
one a lot and called her references -- both were good.  I'm happy to say that
she came this morning and I already feel much better.

My husband stayed home to go over the routine again (she came by on Sunday for
three hours to get to know the kids better).  My brother-in-law came by this
afternoon to see how things were going.  Everyone, me included, seems to like
her a lot better than the other woman.

We told the other provider that it just wasn't a good match and that we were
sorry.  We never got into a big discussion or anything.  I didn't feel too bad
about it since we had only used her for four days and offered to give her a
small severance package.

I want to thank all of you for your replies.  It really helped me to know that
going with my gut feeling was the right thing to do.

    Glad to hear that you've made a change and things seem to be working 
    out.  Hope it continues!!
    
    Happy holidays.
    
    Julie

    
       Same here, I'm glad you decided to change day care for your babies.
    
    
       Rosie

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

Does anyone have any advice on how to handle an almost-6 year old who hits?
My daycare provider's daughter has been hitting alot over the past 6 months
or so, and the target is always one of my daughters.  My provider comes to
our house, and she watches only my 4 and 6 years old daughters, plus her own
daughter.

A few months ago, the girl was hitting my 4 year old so much that my daughter
would cry whenever she knew they were coming over.  My sitter never discussed
this with me, but due to the crying, I knew it had gotten out of control.  
My sitter said her daughter had been hitting when she was angry or frustrated,
but was "getting better".  I have been asking my kids about it, and for a while
it seemed to be better. 

Last week, however, I saw an ice pack on the table when I got home.  My 6 year
old said the sitter's daughter hit her so hard that the sitter's daughter's
hand started bleeding.  My sitter never mentioned this to me.  The next
day after I got home from work, my 6 year old, and my sitter's daughter 
were dancing in the living room, and all of a sudden the sitter's daughter 
slapped my daughter in the face!  When her mother spoke to her, her first
response was "I didn't hit her that hard".  When her mother started her usual
explanation about how we don't hit people, her daughter started to cry (she
does this whenever she is disciplined) and my sitter backed off.

This woman has worked for us for almost 2 years, and generally things have
gone well, although I have noticed that when her daughter is  involved in
a wrong-doing, she "forgets" to tell me, even in cases like this where I
feel I have a right to know.  I have spoken to her about that.  But my concern
now is that her daughter  is starting to hit again (or maybe she never
stopped).  She will be 6 in 2 months, is starting kindergarten, spent a year
in preschool last year.  I feel she should be beyond the stage of hitting
because she doesn't know what to do with her emotions.  However, in the most
recent case where the kids were dancing, there wasn't any anger, she just felt
like slapping my kid!  The hard part is that she is not my child, and I don't
feel it's my place to discipline her, but I would like to offer my sitter
some suggestions on how to work through this, because I am getting really
tired of having my kids used as punching bags.

If anybody has any advice on how to handle this, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

    I don't know how I would handle hitting incidents when I wasn't home,
    but I would have no reservations about articulating the rules when an
    incident happened in front of me.  If the sitter handled it in an IMO
    spineless manner, I would immediately say, "<sitter's child>, in this
    house there is NO HITTING.  It doesn't matter how *hard* or *gentle*
    the hitting is; hitting is not allowed.  If this happens again, I will
    have to find a different babysitter for my children <or plug in your
    own "consequences">."
    
    Leslie

    At the age of 6, hitting frequently for the sake of hitting sounds 
    to me like a pretty serious issue.  I would find a new sitter as  
    quickly as possible.

    Leslie

I think I would be uncomfortable with a daycare provider
who is not telling me about things like this.  If my 
provider was telling me about it, and talking with me 
about possible solutions/strategies, I would be far
less concerned, but still wanting to work it through.

Pat

    I agree that there isn't much point in trying to change the daycare,
    with this many concerns, you'd be happier switching instead.
    
    We had one (3-year) experience with center-type daycare, with none of
    the problems that you have listed.  All your gut feelings are correct
    (as is almost always the case) - go with them.
    
    Now you'll know exactly what standards you want in a new situation and
    I don't think it will be very hard to find.
    
    Who can work when we're worrying about whether our children are safe? 

Wow! I expected everyone to tell me to chill out. Each of you brought up 
a good point, and I sincerely appreciate your responses. 

Two more issues have arisen, and one of those I listed has resolved itself, 
(the levis were returned.)
 
I thought I would wait until the end of this week to either gather more 
info or see if my impressions are off base.  My husband will be picking 
up the kids a little early this afternoon, just to see what's going on.  

There is a new daycare opening in a neighboring town soon, and I am 
checking into it.

Darlene 
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    I had mentioned this string of notes to my daycare lady, and she was
    completely APPALLED.
    
    If you truly have concerns, or would like something "good" to come of
    this, she gave me the number of the woman who is in charge of licensing
    for the state (NH), and suggested that you call.  One point she brought
    up about the cleaning stuff -- never mind one of the kids drinking it -
    what if one of them picked it up and sprayed/dumped it in another's
    eyes???
    
    She's a mother of 6 herself, and runs the daycare like her home --
    she's seen enough to know how it all happens (that's why I love it so
    much there!), and is VERY precautious of things.  She doesn't even let
    the parents in w/ their boots on, because she wants the carpets to be
    CLEAN for the kids who play on them all day (they have to wear
    slippers).
    
    The number you can call is;
    
    800-852-3345 and ask for Health and Human Services Child? and
    Licensing.  Tracy is the woman you want to speak with.
    
    Even if you pull out your own children - I encourage you to do it for the 
    safety of the other kids there!
    
    Good Luck!
    -Patty    

    
    To deal with your issues more directly, and perhaps quell your
    husband's feeling of "they're ALL like that!", here's my experience;
    
>   They often leave the "disinfectant spray" assesible to children... my 
>   older son picked it up one morning.  I also saw one of the "teachers" 
>   spray the disinfectant on the tray of my younger sons highchair while 
>   he was sitting in it.  Could be dangerous. 
    
    As I mentioned - what if they sprayed it somewhere else??  My daycare
    has wire basket/shelves that are mounted ~5 1/2-6' up on the walls. 
    Any type of medicine/ointment/cleaners goes way up on those shelves. 
    Also, some stuff is kept in the top cabinets in the kitchen area - the
    kitchen area is blocked off from the kids.
    
>   The same "teachers" are never in the same room.  My older son is having 
>   some diffuculty adjusting, and it makes it more difficult when I don't 
>   even know the teachers name nor does she know my sons.  I think that some
>   consistency would be nice. 
    
    I'm in a small daycare, so there's only ever 3 fulltime people, and 2
    part timers, so I don't have this problem.  When we used a larger
    center we had this problem ALL the time, and I have no idea what a good
    solution is.  Even the kids didn't know the names of all the women in
    there (and we're talking about 4-5 years old).  Your sons are so young
    - maybe you'd do better at a smaller center, or in-home care?? (there's
    max ~25 kids at our center).
    
>   There is unquestionably inadequate staff during the dropoff periods. 
>   This morning I left my older son in a room with about 20 children
>   and one teacher.  I do believe that additional staff was expected soon. 
    
    If this seems "okay" in some way to you, let me ask you this .... look
    around at the number of SMALL children, and judge how well they'd
    follow orders.  Now imagine if (God forbid) there was a gas leak or
    fire or something - do you feel comfortable that whoever is there,
    would be able to get *ALL* the children out safely in an emergency??
    20 2-3 year olds is a LOT of "kid" to deal with!!  I know that for
    exactly that reason, our daycare limits the number of babies they will
    take.  No more than 2 infants at once, ever.  Right now, there's only
    2 kids that can't walk, and only 1 that's full time.  Most of the kids
    are ~3yrs old.
    
>   I have labeled everything, but it seems that my children seldom have 
>   their own blankets and sleeping bags.  Neither of my guys will nap without
>   their respective blankets, so I can only imagine that they are quite 
>   distraught at naptime if they are given the wrong blanket.  I would 
>   like to know that my kids have what they are used to, so that they can 
>   be as comfortable as possible. 
    
    So then - if one of the kids in the center has lice or a runny nose or
    whatever, you can fully expect your sons to share in the fun, right??
    Gee, and I get scolded if I forget to leave Jonathan's "blankie"
    because he gets so upset at naptime )-:  For the other boys, we always
    used to have "daycare comfies" and then other things that they used at
    home, so that we could always leave their 'daycare stuff' at daycare.
    
>   On three occasions I have been given conflicting information. For example, 
>   on the 2nd day the kids were there, I called to see how they were and was 
>   told that John was outside and doing wonderful.  When my husband picked 
>   them up he was told that they did not go out, and that John cried much of 
>   day and was very withdrawn.
    
    Again, I've had the same problem with the large centers.  I often
    wondered, if the kid didn't come in at all, and I called to see how he
    was doing, what they'd say to me.  I'm sure they'd say "Oh, he's
    fine!".  Maybe there's more than one John??  With the smaller center,
    and with home-care, I've never found this to be a problem.  In the
    large center, it got to be a MAJOR problem when Jason was hurt one time
    in the playground, and I was trying to find out information about the
    accident, and was told by two different people that he never even went
    out.  I ended up having to call the woman who was in the playground at
    the time (whose name I ONLY got from Jason), at home, to find out what
    had really happened, so that I could decide what type of treatment he
    needed/had had.  (head injury)  It's frightening that no one can tell
    you what your kid's been up to!  Boy did I make a stink about that. 
    But I was somewhat comforted by the fact that the kids were old enough
    to tell me what had happened, fairly reliably.
    
    RE: Talking, and clothes.  Clothes will get lost.  Period.  Not a great
    thing, but can happen anywhere (DON'T send stuff you're not willing to
    lose).  Talking - there's a kid in our daycare who's 3, and doesn't say
    a WORD.  His parents try to ignore it, so the daycare follows suit. 
    They try to encourage him to talk, but then that just gets him more
    frustrated, and he ends up getting REALLY angry.
    
>   There is food all over the floors... Cheerios, popcorn, raisins, etc. 
>   They must only vaccuum once a week.  I could understand if this were 
>   the case at 5:00pm, but this is at drop-off time, too.  It seems to 
>   me that they should do this every evening. 
    
    Yup - should be done once/day.  If for no other reason than to make
    sure that there aren't bugs/rodents coming in looking for dinner.  If
    you don't clean it up, you've *GOT* to spray to keep them out.  What is
    that spray doing for your kids??  They vacuum our center ~5:30, and
    then will meet all the parents by the door to take the kids out, so
    that they don't risk us getting it dirty again.
    
>    The front door to the center is not locked during the day.  I think 
>    it should be.
    
    Ours is always locked.  Period.  The teachers can then just pay
    attention to teaching, and not have to worry about who's coming/going.
    Sometimes it's a pain in the butt, but it's MUCH better than having to
    wonder about who might be coming in, unwanted.
    
>    This morning, in Johns room...where there were about 20 kids, there were 
>    about 1,000 little link locking beads which were about the size of grapes.

    They don't allow ANYTHING into the center that doesn't pass the
    "choking hazard" rules.  Even the little fisher price people, they
    ended up getting rid of because, while they PASSED technically, no one
    was comfortable with them.  Their feeling on it all - there's plenty of
    big toys to play with, and there's no need in the world to potentially
    subject a small child to choking to death.  It's just not worth it to
    them.
    That carries over to foods too.  NO nuts/candies/gum, no matter how old
    the kids are.  Grapes are quartered, hot dogs are just about pureed
    (-:, and everything is cut up SO small that an infant would be safe
    with it.  Yeah - it takes more time, but aren't the kids' lives worth
    the time it takes??  I commend them!
    Maybe it's easier for them because they only take kids up to 1st grade,
    so they're all young ??  I think it's just common sense, *DILIGENTLY*
    applied.
    
>    My observation of the toys is that many are cheap, broken, and simply 
>    not much fun.  Perhaps this doesn't really matter to kids. 
    
    I think it matters, because when a toy breaks, it can become dangerous. 
    I'm thrilled to say that they are VERY picky about the toys that they
    have, and only even get ones that basically CAN'T be destroyed.  Kids
    will be kids, and if anything even seems like it might get broken, it's
    removed.  There's lots of wooden blocks, big plastic building blocks,
    cardboard bricks, tons of Little Tykes stuff, HotWheels cars (which
    they're PARANOID about a wheel coming off and being swallowed), lot of 
    fisher price accessories, and all sorts of neat kid toys.  Alice is a
    kid at heart, and with 6 of her own, she is very in touch with what
    kids do and don't like, and buys accordingly.  WITH a wide safety
    margin built in.  
    
    I would RUN, not walk, away from there....!
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty
    

    I'm curious. I've been talking to some people and I find that I am
    in the minority.  Does anyone out there have more than two children
    in FULL time day care.  I don't yet, but when I've called around
    Daycare centers, nanny's etc.  The people I've talked to (and there
    have been over 20) all repeat my request, kind of stall and then
    answer in a confusing  manner.   As if I'm crazy.  Well after getting
    their price I realized I am crazy, but I have to shop my avenues
    anyway before making a decision.  The nanny's go "How many kids do
    you have?" and the centers all tell me their full and don't have
    three opening until this summer.  Not that I can afford their rates 
    anyway ($400+/wk).  I'm just wondering if I'm the only INSANE
    mother of three little ones working full time.  Not that I want to
    BELIEVE ME!
    
    Rose

    We had 4 under 4, my wife did not work (outside the home),
    and I work mostly at home.  they're now 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade,
    and my wife is back in school to find something she can do other than
    teaching....which she thinks would be impossible to do a good job at
    with any family demands at all.

    We sent each to a year of pre-school at 3 and nursery school 4 and
    then on to our public Kindergarden at 5.

    I know I'm not answering your question....I know that 4 takes up
    more time than there is in a day.  And its well worth it.
    bob

RE: .1

Well, my 3rd started daycare 2 weeks ago today.  I work full time.  The other 
kids are in kindergarten (private at the daycare center) and the oldest toddler
room.

It is quite expensive (I paid $1532 today for the month of February).  I pay 
monthly so it's once less thing to remember on Monday or Friday and because
I get a 20% discount on the oldest two.

So, yes, you are probably nuts... but I'm in the same boat!!

Irene

    
    Hi,
    
    I have 2 children now and am expecting my third in May.  After
    maternity leave, I'll have 3 children in daycare.  We use au pairs for
    our daycare.  It is very convenient for us.  So, you're not alone.
    
    -Ellen.
    

    
    I have only two but we have a nanny (with one of her own that she
    brings with her).   The more children you have the more it makes 
    sense $ wise.  Even with sibling discounts its almost as much (when
    school is out).  I thought we'd switch once we got to school age but 
    now I need her as a taxi driver.    Maybe once they are both in school
    I'll switch to after school care and hire someone to do errands.  
    Certainly money well spent.  
                                                           
    Teri

    I have 3 boys between the ages of 13 months and 5.5 years.  While my
    oldest is in FT kindergarten, and my middle just starting 2 hour Pre-K,
    I currently pay for 2 FT spots to my (home) daycare provider, with a
    little extra for after school care for my oldest.  In the summer I pay
    for 3 FT slots.  I prefer the home daycare enviroment because it's the
    closest enviroment that would be similar to my husband or myself being
    home with the children.  We both work FT.  
    
    When my youngest was ready for daycare, I asked my current provider for
    a price.  She could normally charge her FT $125.00 per child rate
    totalling 375.00, but she discounted her rate which I still couldn't
    afford, so we worked a deal with some trade-offs around a lot of
    things food, formula etc., the major was that while any of my children 
    attended the 2-3 hour Pre-K, I still pay the full-time rate for them. 
    Considering that I have/will have a child in Pre-K for 6 straight
    years, you may think that crazy, but my weekly rate for 3 children is
    extremely discounted.  She also gains in that she has a steady
    dependable client, and is guareenteed that odds are, unless job
    situations change drastically for us, we will be using her services for
    a long time.
    
    One thing funny though that goes along with the base note, when I asked
    my provider for the price for 3, she had never and knew of no one in
    her daycare contacts that had 3 children from the same family.  She
    called Childcare connection pretending to be a mother looking for a
    placement of 3 and got many "you've got to be kidding" responses,
    especially because people are also prejudice about 3 BOYS! Imagine
    that!  
    
    FWIW: I have heard that with more than 2 children the nanny situation
    may be cheaper, but to be honest, I like having my kids out of my
    house.  The kids get a different enviroment, but it's still a homey
    one, they have additional extended "family-like" friends, and my house
    stays resonably cleaner and if need be I can work from home in relative
    silence.  Just my opinion...  Beth  

    
    So true, your house gets a lot messier.    You have to not mind someone
    else living in your house, basically.  Dishs get put away differently 
    etc etc.  You also have a bigger food bill heating bill lighting bill.
    Then there are those taxs to deal with if you do things on the
    up-and-up.  A pain in the neck.  If I could find a great daycare with 
    the right mix of kids I'd do it to.       
    
    I guess one reason we picked home is because the lack of available daycare in
    town and the kids can stay home when their sick.    Also my first grader
    has friends over after school (ones that know my nanny well enough).
    Its a big deal to them. 
    
    She  also likes to play with her friends in the neighborhood after
    school.  Most of the daycares we've talked to only have younger
    children and I'd like the kids to be together.  Then there are days she likes 
    to just come home and be by herself after school.     
    
    /Teri
    
     

    I feel better knowing others in the same boat.  It looks like we'll
    have to stick with home care. Even if I could afford outside daycare, 
    every place I've called either has one or no slots right now.  They've
    all suggested I leave the older two in daycare and hire someone to
    keep my 9 month old at home. ( I have yet to find one single place
    with an infant slot open)  Why do that?  I can get somewhat of 
    a discount with all three together.  Now to find someone to watch
    a 9mo, 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 Full time at home. Whew!  And without
    taking my whole paycheck too!
    
    Wish me luck
    Rose 

    
    	Emily will start Kindergarten this fall, which will prevent
    	us from having 3 in daycare, however, she may need after
    	school care if there is no room at her school.  We're thinking
    	that if she doesn't get into one of the full day classes, we
    	may send her to private kindergarten.
    
    	That said, the biggest thing going in our favor is that we
    	have an established daycare provider.  She cried when I
    	told her I was expecting, and she immediately asked "Do
    	I get the baby?"
    
    	She had previously offered to take Emily part time after school
    	so all three would have been there together.  Since we will only
    	be incrementally adding one, it's not a big deal for her.  If
    	I wanted to place three kids at once, she would definitely not
    	have the room, as she runs with 6 kids at all times.
    
    	Home daycare is the most flexible and affordable from what
    	I've found (in terms of discounts offered, part-time options,
    	etc.), but much more difficult to find three openings at once.
    
    	Centers usually segregate by age, so you're more likely to find
    	a place with one opening in each of the age groups.  Unfortunately,
    	they're usually very rigid with pay structures.
    
    	Hope you find a solution that meets your needs!
    
    	Karen
    

    re .142
    That might work out if you can find someone that's just "starting" in
    daycare.  Of course the problem with 1 person/3 kids, is that if
    ANYthing goes wrong, she/he is out there entire check.  If you had less
    kids going there, then presumably, they would have other kids there, so
    that if you decided to do something different, then they wouldn't be
    "out of work".  It may help you find someone if you offer a "2-week
    notice" or pay or something, if things didn't work out.
    
    Gee ... for $400.00/wk - you've got me wondering if I'm in the wrong
    job!!  (-:
    
    -Patty
       

    I'm sorry but I think kids are being punished much to often these days.
    I feel bad for you son and I would be upset about this too.
    
    You sitter should be looking for him to get off the bus.  Perhaps she 
    should be the one in "time-out" for not doing what you have paid her 
    to do.