Conference moira::parenting

    Carol,
    
      My wife and I have been Foster Parents for a short time.
    It is no walk in the park. If you would like more info,and I
    can be of help feel free to call me DTN:264-4304 x7116
    
                                     JIMBO

    My husband and I had a foster child (baby) for about 5 months.  We do not
    have a current license for foster parenting, but if I can answer any
    questions, I'll try.  What exactly are you looking for?
    
    -sandy
    

    
    It appears from your note that you're more concerned about how to
    accept this other person for two months and what to expect.  
    
    Accepting this child is one thing.  You have an advantage most foster
    parents don't have... she already knows who you are.  She also knows
    she's "visiting" and it's not a question of that her parent(s) don't
    want her.  However, she still needs to be encouraged to write to and
    talk to her mother while she's away.  
    
    Other than that, treat her like your own.  Same rules apply and all 
    that.  Let her know right away what you expect from her, and find out 
    what she wants from you.  Let her make herself at home.  A 10 year old
    is quite capable of getting themselves a drink, making the bed, etc. 
    Let her know that although she's just "visiting" she's not a guest,
    she's a family member.
    
    She should be encouraged to find some friends.  This will give her a
    "Pen Pal" when she leaves you.  Find out what kinds of things she likes 
    to do.  
    
    Best of luck to you.  10 is a very nice age.  
    
    
    

Actually, there is the *possibility* that she might be with us for much 
longer, but we don't know yet.  We plan to all play it by ear.  I'm not used
to being anything but "open", but at this time don't feel I should say much
more than that in this notesfile.

Sooo, she already has started feeling her mother doesn't want her, and has
told her mother that.  And she already knows that her father doesn't want
her (she's a girl; he didn't want a girl).  Therefore, some of the same 
things that come up in the "average foster care" situation will come up here.
I don't know yet how many or how few of these things will be the same.

I learn well from other people's experiences, and I will listen to advice.
Since she's not here yet, I really don't know yet what my questions will be,
but we are apprehensive.  As I understand it, she's a good kid, but she's
been misbehaving *a lot*.  I don't know how much she will test us.

I'm also an "only child" so I don't understand sibling behaviour, and am
apprehensive about what she might do with our 4 year old son, how she might
taunt him or something.  We don't treat each other badly in our house, but
on the other hand, I don't know what is acceptable to people used to siblings
that I might just not understand.  Am I making any sense?  :-}

Also, I don't see how we can just "keep the same rules" for her as we already
have in our house, because the rules we have are only applicable for a 4 year
old or for the adults who bring in the money.  For instance, how much telephone
time should we allow her (long distance and local)?  What allowance should we
give her?  How do we figure out if she is going to need/want counseling (she's
had some rough times)?  

I figure on asking lots of questions at our son's daycare, where they have
other 10 year old girls that she will be with, and I figure on asking *her*
much of the stuff, but at this point, I'm just beginning to understand what
the *questions* are.  :-}

      Carol

    Hi Carol.
    
       I'm not a foster parent, but I've been working with a 15 year old
    girl, Robin, who has been in foster care for the past fourteen months.  
    I only see her every two to three weeks, but there are some things that 
    I've seen with her that might come up with your neice as well.
    
       Robin's attitude toward her dad (who had custody before foster care)
    changes a lot.  Two days ago she was so angry with him that she told me
    she wanted to stay in foster care until she's eighteen.  Today, she
    misses him, is lonely for him, and was so happy that he said "I love
    you" first on the phone.  A lot of times she is very torn -- feeling
    angry at him (and justifiably so), but feeling guilty for being
    "disloyal".  If your neice is having problems with her parents, I
    suspect you'll have a lot of this too.  Mostly I just try to ride it
    out, let her tell me how she's feeling about him, and let her know that
    being angry at him is okay.
    
       Robin craves attention, and never seems to get all that she needs. 
    When she lived with her Dad, he worked second shift and she was often
    alone.  Then, the first foster home she was in had five other foster 
    children, and she was constantly battling for attention from the foster 
    mother.  But, if Evan is anything like my 5 year old nephew, I'm sure 
    you're used to having high demands on your time :-).
    
       Robin's in her second foster home since I've been seeing her, and
    she seems to adjust pretty quickly to the rules of the home.  She had
    very little (maybe even no) restrictions from her Dad, and she really
    seems to derive comfort and security the structure she's had in her
    foster homes.  For your neice, I wouldn't hesitate to let her know what
    you expect of her, and that actions have consequences.  That seems to
    be the biggest thing that Robin has learned.  She told me a few
    months back that she used to do things even though she knew they were
    wrong, but that now she thinks about what the consequences are and
    makes better decisions.
    
       Good luck to all of you.  It will probably be challenging, but I'm
    sure it will be well worth it if you can provide love and security for your
    neice.   I have a couple of teenaged cousins, and I remember 10 as
    being a great age for having them around -- lots of fun, generally
    happy, and not quite old enough for the adolescent blues...
    
                                            Tracy
    
       
            

Howdy, howdy!

I knew I would need to write in here eventually about our 10 year old niece
who is living with us for the summer.  Surprisingly, all of the things
I've feared have not turned out to be a problem (so far, at least).  What
has been a problem is the constant "little things": having to teach her
the many rules of our house (I thought we didn't have many, and what we didn't
mention was *common sense*!).

One of the main problems has been with her maturity level, or rather, our
expectations that it would be higher than it is.  It's getting to be where
we feel we are going to need to treat her like we treat our 4 year old son,
rather than like a person more than twice that age.

Examples of some of the things we have experienced lately:  we buy her several
new clothes, including a "nice" pair of pants (in addition to new jeans).  On
the first time of wearing the new thick jeans, she has grass-stained them
incredibly on the knees and butt, and torn a hole in the back pocket.  The
first time she wears the "nice" pants I get ready to wash them (this morning)
and find them completely grass-stained on the butt. 

This morning I asked her what her group was going to be doing at daycare, and
asked if she would be swimming.  She said they would not be swimming, but didn't
know what they would be doing.  At my insistance, we check both calendars of 
activities for today and both say she will be swimming, but she insists they
will not be, so she leaves her bathing suit at home (they don't have any big
enough for her at daycare).  When we arrive at daycare, her teacher immediately
turns to me and says hi and tells me that they will be swimming indoors instead
of outdoors today because of the cool weather.

This morning as I had gone to the car, Evan (age 4) was putting on a second
shirt.  Nicole was sitting in the car in shorts and short/no sleeves.  It was
cool and foggy outside.  I asked her if she had gotten her jacket.  She said
she couldn't find it.  I told her to go into the house and get a sweater from
her closet, and while she was there to pick up Evan's blue jacket which was
on my chair (which she would pass to and from her room).  When we arrived at
daycare, I noticed there was no jacket for Evan.  She said she forgot.

Ever since the first week she has asked to have sleepovers with the other
girls.  We said we would have to know the parents.  One day at about 5:00 she
told us that she was supposed to go to Stephanie's house at 6:00 that day. 
We told her we had already made other plans.  The next day I spoke with 
Stephanie's mother.  She had never been told anything about that, and told us
her daughter was on probation and couldn't have friends over like that.
Another day Nikki told us that she was supposed to spend the night at Sheena's
house that Thursday.  We asked her if Sheena's parents knew this.  I don't
remember her response, but we told her to have Sheena's parents call us.
We never heard from them.  A week before this, Nikki had told us that this
same Sheena had stolen some things from another girl.  We didn't know whether
we should believe this or not. 

When she first arrived, Nikki bragged to us about various times when she had
lied to people.  That night we let her know that truthfulness was *required*
in our house.  I honestly don't know whether she has kept that rule or not.
I have only once suspected her of intentionally lying.  OFTEN, though, she
misleads us (perhaps unintentionally) and I am learning not to believe her
when she says something.

THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!  :-}

On the good side, she seems to be basically a good kid.  I expected her to
push the bedtimes (she has) and a few other things.  What I didn't expect was
has good she is with Evan.  He adores her.  She plays with him very well.

As I write this, I realize that some of the frustration comes from her putting
herself in potential danger occasionally.  At the carnival, she ran off in a
different direction than she had told Shellie where she was going, and when I
learned of this, I ran looking for her.  I found her walking away with a 
scruffy man towards the outskirts of the carnival (and toward their personal
trailers where the carnival people lived).  I handled that situation then
sat her down and had a long talk with her about keeping close to us and about
potential abuse situations.  I have had to repeat that lesson at least once
since then.  And if I see her in danger, she often takes off very quickly and
doesn't respond when I yell until I *shriek*.  I feel like a fishwife, and
spoke with her about that, too.

Thank you for letting me vent.  Now please tell me, is this *normal* behaviour
for a 10-year old?????  EVAN doesn't do many of these things!  How have you
handled these types of things??

(and my fellow mods: if you wish to move this to a base note on preteens or 
whatever 10 year olds are called, that's fine with me).

         Carol

    I don't have a child this old, but I'm the eldest of six children and
    spent a lot of time around kids my entire life.  I don't think this is
    behavior that I would want or expect from a 10 year-old living with me. 
    But you are getting her when she hasn't been trained to act like you
    want her to.
    
    I think I'd work on the safety issues as the main priority, then the
    lying, then the annoying stuff like forgetting the jacket.  Some of
    that stuff I would just forget---like the swimming.  If she really
    wants to swim and participate in an activity, she'll remember the next
    time.  If not, then she can just sit and watch.  
    
    There's a lot of stuff in your note, and I'm sure others will be more
    experienced and can offer you more advice. 
    
    judy

    It doesn't sound so much normal as feasible ...
    
    She has obviously either been cut a free rein at home in the past, or
    she feels she should be cut a lot of slack because of the "fostering"
    situation she's in and doesn't feel that you should really have any
    control over her or some combination of both.
    
    I think you have to approach this from two ends ...  One is a strong
    dose of "the rules" as far as safety is concerned ... we're looking
    after you and we care about you so these are the rules and they are
    only there becasue we care ... they aren't there because just because
    we want to set rules.  The other end is ensuring that she knows her
    careless actions are going to impact other people ... e.g. you realize
    that Evan may well be cold because you forgot his jacket.  Also ensure
    that she gets to know that her actions affect how you and Shellie
    "feel".
    
    Generally I'd expect this kind of behaviour to occur when a child
    doesn't have to take any responsibility for her/his actions.
    
    I gather that this kind of problem has got to be one of the toughest
    parts of fostering a child ... and requries so much patience ... then
    to realize that you can only achieve so much in a short period.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Stuart

    "Parents" throughout this note can be taken as "person in charge,"
    meaning you and Shellie, but you might also want to keep in mind
    your niece's home situation, which I know nothing about.  Except
    where noted, I am speaking from personal experience.
    
    One reason kids lie is that they aren't used to having their
    unvarnished opinions accepted.  If "I don't want to go swimming"
    results in "Go get your swimsuit on" or other disregard of the
    child's feelings, the child learns to say, "We aren't swimming
    today."  Teachers as well as parents can make you feel this way.  
    
    Maybe "I don't want to go swimming" translates to "the other kids
    are laughing at me because I'm too skinny" or "I'm afraid they'll
    think I'm fat" or even "I'm afraid of the water."  And if you
    haven't been raised in a household where those are legitimate
    things to say, you make up what you can to protect yourself.  If
    you don't have your swimsuit, they can't make you go swimming.  
    
    If you're not getting enough attention at home, maybe you turn
    around and start to tell stories that make you sound more
    interesting.  Maybe you think they'd pay more attention to you if
    you weren't so dull, and you aren't old enough to figure out that
    their abstraction is because the company your father works for is
    going out of business.  
    
    If you hear your parents say, "I'm worried because Bonnie doesn't
    seem to have any friends," maybe you start making up stories about
    the parties you've been invited to and the conversations other
    kids have had with you, so you won't be a worry to your parents
    when you already know they're having so much trouble with finances
    and work.  
    
    Maybe -- this is one I haven't been in myself -- maybe you've done
    something shameful, or more likely had something shameful done to
    you that you blame yourself for, and now you have to lie to keep
    up the front, to keep other people from discovering your shame,
    because if your parents found out they'd send you away and
    wouldn't love you any more.  
    
    Maybe you do dangerous things because that's what interesting
    people do, or because it definitely gets you some attention.  Or
    maybe this time you're mad and you want to get hurt so maybe
    they'll feel sorry for how they mistreated you.  Or maybe it's
    because you think you deserve to be hurt.  Maybe you just want to
    be out from under for a while, where you don't need to put up the
    front of being the good girl, or of being interesting, or
    whatever.  
    
    Maybe you think that being sent to your aunt for the summer is the
    first step toward being sent away.  Maybe you think that even if
    it was your idea.  You wonder, "Why did they go along with it? 
    Did they want to get rid of me that bad?" 
    
    There may also be dyslexia involved.  Dyslexia isn't just a
    reading problem, it comes into play whenever there's sequencing,
    so when you get a series of orders -- go in the house, get your
    jacket, get Evan's jacket on the way out -- you sometimes get them
    mixed up, or drop one of the items into whatever hole in your
    brain is home to the lost information.  And you know people are
    going to yell at you for being careless, or forgetful, and they're
    going to tell you you have to try harder, and maybe they're going
    to punish you to make sure you know that you have to follow the
    rules and you aren't exempt from behaving, when all along you know
    you're trying as hard as you can and it's just never good enough.
    
    You start making up lies to protect yourself from that, too.  You
    start that really young.  Especially if you're doing well enough
    in school that nobody has ever suspected a learning disability.  
    
    --bonnie

>    There may also be dyslexia involved.  Dyslexia isn't just a
>    reading problem, it comes into play whenever there's sequencing,
>    so when you get a series of orders -- go in the house, get your
>    jacket, get Evan's jacket on the way out -- you sometimes get them
>    mixed up, or drop one of the items into whatever hole in your
>    brain is home to the lost information.

FWIW, that sounds more like ADD than dyslexia.  Parents of ADD kids
learn that only the first in a series of directions will be followed.

    Good point, I hadn't thought of ADD because it's not something
    I've personally suffered from. 
    
    With dyslexia, there isn't really a pattern to which one gets
    dropped.  A lot of times it's the last one I have trouble
    remembering, so I focus on it, and wind up forgetting the middle
    thing.  I always write things down.
    
    I also don't think it's consistent, and based on the extensive
    professional disagreement around dyslexia generally I wouldn't
    want to go any farther than to say this is what happened to me and
    it might bear looking into.  
    
    --bonnie

Her 11 year old brother has ADD and is on anti-depressants and Ridlin (sp?).

Nicole enjoys swimming, from what she and her mother have said.  She brags
about being one of the top (or the top) swimmer in her town.  Shellie and
I have paid for her to be part of a swimming team in the past.

I will keep in mind all of the things that have been suggested and shared here.
How do you *know* if someone is lying?  Lying is nearly entirely foreign to
me.
       Carol

    I can certainly echo Bonnie's comments on the effects of what is
    often labelled as dyslexia (sometimes I think we're dealing with a
    collection of similar but different learning disorders with similar
    but different effects in differenct people but all are common enough
    that we give them the generic title dyslexia).
    
    Bonnie certainly managed to spill all kinds of good ideas in her reply,
    almost in the way a child would explode them out if they could. 
    Sometimes I think we look for answers in too intellectual a way!
    
    As to the lying, it depends on the child ... if she's an habitual liar
    then it may be just about impossible to tell, and then you are in the
    position of distrusting everything she says ... and oh boy will she
    recognize and take advantage of that!  If she is not an habitual liar,
    then there are often telltale signs like the inability to look straight
    at you, or other signs of nervousness, or an over-insistence that she
    is telling the truth; things like the way she stands or sits, a twitch,
    ... almost anything.
    
    Hearing that her brother is ADD and on Ritalin indicates possibly one
    of the reasons for the problems you are experiencing with her.  The
    brother will have been getting incredible amounts of attention for both
    good and bad behaviour.  In terms of getting attention, I can see a
    definite pattern for Monkey see, monkey do!  He can behave badly and
    get attention and it is accepted, so I can get attention that way too!
    But why do I get in trouble when he doesn't ?  Now he is getting lots
    of attention from parents when I have to go to an aunt.
    
    Good luck and lots of patience!
    
    Stuart
    
    

    > Bonnie certainly managed to spill all kinds of good ideas in her
    > reply, almost in the way a child would explode them out if they
    > could. 
    
    I was just remembering what life was like as an undiagnosed
    dyslexic child . . . of knowing something was wrong but not having
    any idea how to explain it, and knowing my parents loved me and
    were trying to help but couldn't see or understand it either. 
    
    I agree with Stuart's assessment that what we call dyslexia is
    just a lump of related information processing problems.  
    
    I'm only beginning to understand some of it in the past few
    months.  I had always figured it was a moot point whether or not I
    did have a learning disability when I was in school, because I
    certainly managed to acquire an excellent education that I don't
    have any trouble using -- I'm not a person who had to bluff my way
    through college without learning to read, or something like that. 
    So I figured it was something I used to have and it didn't really
    matter.  
    
    But then talking to a couple of other adult dyslexics, I realized
    that while I've learned to cope with the way my mind works, and
    occasionally doesn't work, it still affects me every day.  It's
    why I hate the telephone so much -- I really do lose track of the
    conversation, and unlike reading, I can't go back and replay what
    was said.  So when I feel lost, it's not because I can't cope or
    because I'm trying to get out of things, it's because I'm lost.  
    
    I've also realized that I'm still telling lies to make myself
    sound interesting.  Only now I call it a novel or a short story
    and everybody says it's great :)  
    
    If Nicole is lying for the same reasons as I did, it's pretty
    unlikely that she's going to lie about anything important.  At
    least I never did.  If she's lying to get attention, or to mimic
    the behaviors  that help her brother get attention, then she
    might -- that's not an area I have personal experience in.  
    
    I'm trying to think of things that would have helped me when I was
    that age and in that situation and I'm coming up rather blank.  I
    suppose the thing that would have made the most difference is if
    somebody had realized that I was trying as hard as I could all the
    time, so there wasn't anything left over for situations that
    called for extra concentration, extra effort, or extra perception. 
    Unfortunately those situations are usually when family stress is
    highest and everybody else was drawing on their reserves to get
    them through, and I didn't have any reserves because I was running
    on empty.  
    
    So maybe if you can just reassure her you love her and she doesn't
    have to try so hard all the time? 
    
    --bonnie

Some of the things that other people seem to think are not normal 10
year old behavior, I can easily see as normal 10 year old behavior or
normal anyone behavior.  The jacket thing in particular.  I am always
having to remind the kids about everything, and in the space of a few
minutes, their attention can easily be distracted or directed to something
else.  Happens to me too.  I forgot to bring my sweater this morning which
I'd brought downstairs with & hung on the bannister rail to take with me.  
Then I let the dog out, fed him, got a blueberry muffin & packed it to take 
with me for breakfast, got my purse, some work-stuff I'd brought home, and 
headed out the door thinking about what a mess the kitchen was & how to fit 
in cleaning it up & wondering what we ought to have for dinner tonight.  Was 
half way to work & realized I'd left the sweater hanging on the bannister.

Also, the sometimes careless disregard for personal safety seems to be pretty
normal.  This is a tough one because you don't want them to get hurt, yet you 
want to give them a degree of independence without always having to hover over
them, and you also don't want to create tremendous fears in the them.  You 
just want them to be careful, look before walking across streets, not go off 
with strangers or get into other dangerous situations that they can't handle.
This is one that I have difficulties with myself, especially as regards the 9 
year old since he's starting to want to be very independent of family.

And the swimsuit issue too.  I find that somehow, sometimes, the children
get an idea in their heads, think they are right, and will not dismiss it 
no matter how contrary the evidence is against it.  I tend to just insist 
that we bring something along if I think it will be needed & tell the kids, 
just in case ... if they don't need it fine, it won't get used, but if they do,
well we have it with us.

I would agree with the person (people) who said that it might be good to try &
see if there is something that isn't getting said.  Kids don't always know
how to express themselves about their emotions or things that are bothering
them, and need a little gentle probing to help them.

Finally though, the overnight thing would concern me, since it seems she's
making things up or bending the reality of the situation a good deal.  Hope
you're able to deal successfully with it all.

Leslie

    I left for work once leaving the dog outside.  
    
    -:)
    

While I agree that forgetfullness is just about inevitible in all of us,
(I don't bring lunch to work because invariably I forget to pick it up off
the kitchen table!), what I see described here are a number of behavioural
problems of which an almost "deliberate" forgetfullness may be a very
possible part.  I.e. it would be in keeping with some of her other behaviour
to be defiant an ddeliberately forget something.

Also, if there are enough other things going through the child's mind then
the forgetfulness may be a side effect of that ... but sometimes one way
of taking the child's mind off the things that are getting to her and possibly
causing the behaviour is to sidetrack her mind to other things, and sometimes
sidetracking it to the regimen of remembering to do things can be useful
therapy.

So, whether the forgetfullness is reasonable or not, it is obviously significant
enough to warrant some attention and training.

Stuart

    Again, I'm basing this only on the fact that I used to behave in a
    very very similar way for a far different reason than what the
    other notes are suggesting.  They may well be right -- we all know
    how many different underlying reasons can trigger very similar
    behavior.  
    
    While I'm certainly not trying to diagnose somebody over the net
    on the basis of one note, I know from personal experience that the
    kind of forgetfulness that comes with a learning disability can
    appear quite deliberate and defiant to an adult who's trying to
    get the child to "behave properly" or "respect the rules of the
    house." 
    
    *If* some part of her behavior comes from her attempts to cope
    with a learning disability, neither more discipline nor dismissing
    it as "we all forget sometimes" is going to be of any help.  
    
    
    --bonnie 

    Indeed Bonnie ... I was just trying to indicate that dismissing
    forgetfullness is not valid.
    
    If it's because of an LD then it is useful to be aware that she
    may well forget and a regimen may tend to help ... eg "please pick up
    a, b and c" as opposed to "please pick up a and c oh and can you get
    b as you pass".   Get her to repeat a list of instructions so that
    you know whether she starts out with the list right.
    
    If it's willful then regimen and confirmation of instructions will
    help because she then can give you no other valid excuses.
    
    The point is you take the possibilities of forgetfullness into account
    as opposed to ignore or excuse it.  That is not to say you apply
    discipline.
    
    Stuart

    OK, I see what you mean, Stuart.  Yes, you're right, that should
    be helpful in either case.  
    
    --bonnie