Conference moira::parenting

    This is a tough one to answer...sometimes kids do things just to do
    it - not really thinking why or what the consequences could be.  I
    really believe that kids don not always have a reason for doing
    something.... they often don't know why they do something and couldn't
    tell you themselves.  When kids say "I don't know why I did it" they
    probably really don't know.  Like adults, somethimes we do things
    knowing we shouldn't, but we do anyway!  How often do you tell yourself
    that you shouldn't have or be doing something while you're actually
    doing it!!  I do this often enough - not necessarily bad things (but
    REALLY stupid/silly thinmgs sometimes).
    
    The best thing to do is let the kids know why you don't want them to do
    something, if they choose to do it again, let them know there will be
    consequences and what they are, then FOLLOW-THRU (if they do it again).
    Kids always test the waters...sometimes they just do what they know
    they shouldn't....it's part of growing.
    
    Whew....I re-read this - sorry it sounds confusing!  I hope I got my
    point across!
    
    Kathy

I think the reason is important.  While I agree that kids don't always know why
they did something, it is very valuable for them to learn to figure out
why they did something.  (A reasonable amount of self-analysis is good in a
grown-up).  Also, it gives you the chance to help them understand what "right" 
is and what "wrong" is.

And, sometimes we decide to do something "bad", because it is the right thing to
do.  An example - telling on someone is "bad", but if a kid has a friend who
is using drugs, s/he should tell a parent.  The end reason is to help the friend,
and that takes precedent.  (I'm not arguing that the end justifies the means, 
this is just an example).  

While learning the "real" reason why a child does something may be useful
information, I think it's important to remember:

-    That a child may genuinely not know why they do something.  There are
     some incidents from my childhood when I did things that were entirely
     irrational.  To this day, I don't know why I did them.

-    A child's value system may differ from ours.  For example, in the
     incident mentioned in the base note, the boy's explanation for
     concocting a story seems quite rational to me.  To him, the fact that
     he was being punished for something he didn't do certainly seems unfair.
      And it's entirely possible that he didn't know who did it, and therefore
     couldn't do anything about the punishment.  Sure doesn't sound fair to
     me.

     That he may have falsely accused his sister is hard to excuse, but who
     knows what might have caused him to do it?  For example, what if he knew
     she had done something else wrong, and had gotten away with it.  It
     might seem perfectly fair to him for her to get punished.

The daycare providers point of view is certainly more rigid than mine.  And
BTW, how does the daycare provder know that neither of them did it?

 
Clay

    The sitter and I don't believe that either one of my kids did it.
    I guess it's just a feeling.  It's not like my son to do something
    like that.  On the other hand, it WOULD be like my daughter to do it. 
    She loves to draw and we have been trying to teach her that there are
    certain things to draw on and other things NOT to, ie a new canopy bed,
    walls, etc!  I believe she has learned THIS lesson.
    
    I have been thinking alot about my conversation with her and haven't
    really made a decision on how I really feel.  I believe when a kid
    does something wrong, an explanation is in order.  I'm not saying
    the "reason" they did it "excuses" what they did, but I feel they
    need to look at WHY they did it and then try to work out a solution
    so it doesn't happen again and punishment if necessary.
    
    The sitter feels they shouldn't do something wrong, no matter what
    the reason is.  If they KNEW it was wrong, they shouldn't have done it. 
    They did it and should be punished.  In some ways, I agree with this,
    but on the other hand, I think the underlying cause needs to be
    addressed also.  
    
    If a kid does something "because all the other kids did it", they need
    to be told that it was wrong and their "reason" does not excuse it. 
    But, to not listen to the "reason" at all, I don't think helps them
    understand Why they did it and Why it was wrong.

    how do you reach for "why" from such a young child.  I think a child
    will do something-- good or bad-- for no apparent reason than other
    because if felt good.  I think punishment or consequence will curtail
    or encourage a particular act.
    
    Like, supposedly child bullies harass victims for attention.  Does the
    young child know this, if you were to ask him/her why they bully?
    
    cindy
     

I think that it's good to work on "why", even tho they can't understand why.
"Why" is a hard concept - abstract and vague.  But lots of examples
over time can get the concept across.

I think it's similar to talking to babies long before they can understand.  They
learn to talk *because* we talk to them.

Definitely, there should be repercussions for all actions - praise for good
behaviors and punishment for naughty behaviors.  But not using these behaviors 
to teach "why" is a missed opportunity.

I don't have the patience to do this every day, of course.  Elise is only 17 
months old and I know she doesn't understand what I mean, but she'll catch on.
We keep it simple right now, like when she pats the cat gently, we praise her
and point out how it feels good to make the cat happy and since she's nice, the
cat will stay for more petting.

  I am having behavior problems with my four year old son Stephen and his 
  daycare provider and am looking for some ideas or suggestions.

  We have had quite a lot going on in our life lately so I think there are
  a number of reasons for his behavior.  I just started back to work 2
  weeks ago after having baby #3 in April.  His sister Allison is 2 years
  old.  

  He no longer goes to a daycare center, we have a sitter come
  to the house.  He stopped going to the center in June.  We spent the first
  two weeks of July on vacation at the Cape.  On July 14th a very close
  friend of ours and Stephen died.

  Well, after all that, he is being terrible to the sitter.  She called me
  the first week and said Stephen is hitting Allison and I can't stop him.
  I said "You are the adult in charge, he is testing you and it is up to
  you to set his limits.  If he is terrible then carry him to his room for a
  timeout."  Now two weeks later I am still getting the same calls.

  Do I treat Stephen firmly and tell him this is the way it is going to be, 
  or do I get a new daycare person?  Do I wait and see how things go?  It
  seems like my sitter can not control Stephen and he knows it.  How long
  should I wait?  I'm am really stressed out and I would be much happier
  at work if I felt my kids were happy.  Allison and baby Louis are very
  happy.  Stephen will start nursery school in the fall which should help.

  Any ideas?  

  Karin 

    Dear Karin,
    
    I assume you are backing up the sitter in her discipline of Stephen.
    
    I don't mean he need be punished twice for a misdeed, once at daycare
    and again by his parents (not necessarily).  But do you reinforce her
    messages?
    
    It sounds like you have an effective means of discipline - time out in
    his room.  I am concerned that the daycare provider is not maintaining
    consistency with you.
    
    Have you discussed this with Stephen?
    
    Another thought - my daughter started biting (at 18 months) at her
    previous daycare.  The sitter said she couldn't control it and demanded
    that we remove Ilona.  My husband thinks that the other kids were
    picking on her, such as by grabbing toys from her, and that the sitter
    was letting them get away with it.  Could something similar be
    happening here?
    
    Good luck.  It is very stressful.  Hang in there.
    
    L
    

Re: .7 

>  I am having behavior problems with my four year old son Stephen and his
>  daycare provider.... She called me the first week and said Stephen is 
>  hitting [his sister] and I can't stop him.
>  I said "You are the adult in charge, he is testing you and it is up to
>  you to set his limits.  If he is terrible then carry him to his room for a
>  timeout."  Now two weeks later I am still getting the same calls.

Children with behavior problems need to be handled with firmness and 
consistency.  Your advice to the provider is right on the money.  I'm not sure
from your description whether she's following through consistently.

If she is following your advice and things are still not working, she'll need
further advice on how and when to repeat the timeouts until the message gets
through to Stephen.

If she isn't following your advice, then she isn't going to be able to deal 
with Stephen's behavior effectively at all.

You have several choices:  (1) Accept her inability to deal with the problem,
and make do temporarily until nursery school begins.  (2) Get a new provider 
who you believe will follow your advice consistently.  (3) Make it clear to
your current provider just what has to be done, and either she'll do the 
right thing or you'll be back to choices (1) or (2) above.

Good luck!

    Well, here is an update to .7.
    
    I have kept the same sitter and she is doing wonderfully and trying
    very hard to do a good job.  She took all 3 kids to drumlin farm, she
    arranged an activity where they had their own olympic games, she
    colored easter eggs and had an egg hunt, etc.  She has really been
    creative.  Taking all 3 out is no small task.
    
    I think the root of the problem is Stephen is mad at me for going back
    to work.  It was ok if he went to school(daycare) when I went to work,
    but if he is at home then I should be at home.  He is also spending
    much more time with Allison so they are bickering much more.  
    
    Nothing like a case of the guilts.  I feel terrible for him, but he is
    slowly adjusting.  I really think things will get better when he goes
    to nursery school in the fall.  I am only working 3 days a week right
    now.  I am thinking of switching to 5 short days when Stephen starts
    school so I will be home in the afternoons with him.
    We are refinancing our house so maybe I can reduce my hours more.
    
    We are taking this one day at a time I guess.
    Thanks for the replies and any new suggestions welcome.
    
    Karin

I'm not sure if this note belongs here or not.  My husband and I have been
having a rather difficult time with our not quite 5 year old son.  We have
spoken with his preschool teachers and most are shocked when we tell them of how
he has been behaving at home.  They continue to tell us that he borders angelic
at school, with the minor exception of one outburst last week they say he's the
same boy he's always been.  

I presume that what he's likely doing is observing other's behavior at school
and testing it out at home.  He's been spending a fair amount of time on "time
out" at home with unfavorable results.  He has lost TV (including tapes)
privileges for a week and he can not have any friends over nor can he go to
their houses until his behavior improves.  He seems to understand this in the
sense that he knows he can't watch TV because he's been fresh.  So he does "get"
the consequence bit.  

He has an almost 3 year old brother.  Someone said well, perhaps he's still
jealous of his brother.  I'm not sure if I buy that or not.  I mean, let's face
it, his brother has been here for some time now, and although we both work
fulltime my husband and I like to think that we spend a fair amount of "quality"
time with both boys (individually and together).  I should mention that he has
been teasing his brother unmercifully lately.  I presume this too is a stage. 
For the most part his brother can handle it and we try at times to let the two
of them work their problems with each other out on there own.  

What is frustrating the heck out of us is that no matter what punishment we seem
to serve up he takes it.  Yes he cry's, whines and stomps around but HE DOES NOT
CHANGE HIS BEHAVIOR.  He'll promise to be good and so forth but within a short
amount of time he's right back to back-talking, saying bad words, teasing,
showing disrespect or whatever.  It's just so unlike him.

We've had no major life changes that we think would make him start acting out. 
Is this just a stage?  We are trying very hard to hold firm to the boundaries we
have set but also don't want to everything to turn into a battle.  The other
part which makes this difficult is that his younger brother is rapidly picking
up on some of this behavior.  Suggestions???

    Not many suggestions but much sympathy. Both my boys (almost 6, and 3
    1/2) have been having a hard time lately. They've been acting out
    at school and at home. I think, in my case, the older one started after
    seeing the attention his brother got when he was misbehaving. 
    I also attribute it to this time of year -- both kids are up *very*
    early, and they're not getting enough sleep. I can't wait for daylight
    savings time!
    Sue
    

    My 4 1/2 yr old son is doing the same thing as described in .10, except
    that in his case he's the younger brother.  We do have life changes
    going on but he'd been adapting to those over time.  In my mind, it
    feels like it's just another part of the cyclical pattern that is
    described in many of the development books. Kids tend to have ~6 months
    of an age where they're fairly comfortable in their skills and so their
    behavior is pretty good, and then when they're learning new skills (be
    it bike riding or adapting to social environment) their behavior alters
    as they struggle developmentally with whatever they're trying to
    master.
    
    Not that it makes your daily life any easier, but it does help put it
    in perspective.
    
    Something else that keeps me focused is making the consequence age
    appropriate. In my mind, taking away TV for a week is too drastic for a
    4 yr old. Within 2 days they forget why they lost the privilege, and
    can easily start to think that they're bad all the time and that's why
    they don't get TV.  Instead try to start each day anew and if his
    behavior is as you'd like it to be, encourage and reward him by having
    a friend over or letting him have 1/2 hour of TV.  I remember something
    I read in Penelope Leach's book about how kids can easily believe
    they'll never be good enough for us if we don't encourage and
    acknowledge the times they are. It's too easy (no criticism here
    because I'm in the same frustration loop) to get caught up in the bad
    behavior and forget that they're basically good and WANT to be good.
    
    Best of luck, to us all. You could have been describing my 4 yr old!
    
                                                           

    
    I can't remember if 4 is still "too young" for this, but at times, over
    the years, when I'm at my wits' end over my kids, I'll turn it around,
    and start acting like THEM.  A LITTLE exaggerated maybe, but not much.  
    
    It usually starts out "Look, I don't know what to do with you anymore,
    so how about if YOU be the Mommy, and I'll be YOU, and we'll see if we
    can get any better ideas, okay?"  They think it's funny, but stick with
    it long enough (10-20 mins), and act like a complete BRAT, and they get
    the idea REAL quick.  Give them something that they have to get you to
    DO in that time period (eat, clean up, take a tub), and throw the same
    fits they do.
    
    THEN, after they give up, you can talk about how HARD it was for them
    to succeed at whatever they were trying to do, just because you were
    acting like a "brat" (maybe use a nice word).
    
    A picture's worth 1,000 words!  Neither Chris nor I will EVER forget,
    when he was going through a very damanding-know-it-all stage, when I
    had enough, came home and told him HE had to make dinner and take care
    of everyone for the night.  And I acted like him .... and within 20
    mins his entire perception of LIFE changed a bit.  He also realized
    that he didn't know everything (-:
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

Thanks for the tips and/or sympathies.  It's refreshing to hear that it's not 
just my kid who gets like this.  

I appreciate the comment on starting each day anew.  I may try that approach and
see if I have any success.  I should note here though that we didn't take away
TV for a week all at once.  It was a day to day thing.  As his behavior got
worse he lost another day.  And in retrospect maybe taking away TV isn't really
a big deal to him - he's not exactly "hooked" on TV but does enjoy his tapes.

I may also try acting like him and seeing where that gets me.  Actually I have
said to him (so many times now), "Connor what would you do if you were the
Mommy?"  (to which he generally reply's 
"I dunno").  But perhaps if I did carry
it a step further and gave him a taste for what it's like he may get he picture.

Again thanks, and I'm open to more suggestions/idea's/comments if anyone has
them.  

    re: few back.... not to make you any more 'depressed' but it sounds
    like my 12 year old too......  WHEN does it get better???  :>)

    
    	Patty - I do a similar thing with my kids every now and then.
    
    	Saturday, 2 year old Andrew was fussing because I wouldn't let
    	him run through the store.  After trying to console him a few
    	minutes, I just started fussing, too.  A couple women looked
    	at me with bemused expressions, but it worked.  Andrew stopped
    	fussing in about 1 minute.  He was a bit perturbed that I stole his
    	thunder ;-)
    
     

    Something I remember from an ancient psychology course and frm dealing
    with kids over 22 years.  Kids will act out where they feel the most
    secure.  If you were getting "angelic" behavior at home and getting
    feedback that the "angel" was an absolute demon child at daycare then I
    would be worried.  
    
    I hate to use the hackneyed term "this is a phase" but it is.  Kids
    have to test their limits and they will do that where they are most
    secure.  It is painful, and I have an extra not-quite-3 in my home at
    the moment, but gentle guidance can help.  
    
    best wishes,
    
    meg

    Oh my!  Its refreshing to read I'm not alone with Kathryn 'trying out her
    independence'  (read= driving Mum crazy with her "I know best" routine)
    
    ....hmmm..perhaps Mr.Naughty has been visiting all the kids during the 
    night with mischief tablets! ;-)
    
    
    I like the idea of role swapping...perhaps I'll give that a try next
    time.  Heaven knows we've tried most everything else this past weekend!
                   
    Jackie