Conference moira::parenting

    I'd probably refuse to let her kids play in my house and I would not
    let my son play in hers-ever.
    
    Now, out in the park or playground or outside wherever, is different. 
    This is such normal kids' stuff.  Unless, my kid or another kid became
    absolutely violent, I'd let the kids resolve it - to whatever extent
    they find satisfactory.
    
    And as for, shouting in front of my door or especially toward my son,
    I'd as calmly as possible and as matter factly as possible, I'd tell
    her that I will not talk to her until she calms down and speaks
    respectfully.  If she didn't immediately, I'd shut the door.
    
    * This scenerio actually happened to me.  It involved my daughter.  My
    daughter was absolutely in the wrong, but this wild woman swore she'd
    kill my 9 yr. daughter if she ever saw her outside.  It took every
    tense muscle in my body to restrain myself from smashing her strained
    neck between my door and the frame.  The incident involved a box of
    detergent that my daughter dumped into a washer in the laundryroom.  My
    daughter paid the woman $5 out of her allowance, and cleaned the washer
    out.  Another girl was involved also.  Kid stuff.  But it was all
    solved so rationally after I told the woman to calm down otherwise
    she'd have the police at her door for threatening the life of a child.
    
    That entire day was awful.  My 7yr son got hit by a hit and run driver. 
    His leg was broken in 2 places.  And I was working 60 hrs/wk.  I don't
    know how I ever made it through that entire year.
    
    You just can't allow this outrageous woman to control you.  
    
    p.s. I really don't understand the point in the "I'm sorry" business. 
    It's such a fake.
    
    I recall this other wildwoman in another place I use to live, demanding
    that my 3yr son tell her 2yr son "I'm sorry" for something or other. 
    My kid didn't want to, and I wanted this lady to just get lost.  As if
    her kid was some kind of special angel. (actually a terror). What this
    woman wanted was some kind of satisfaction not a resolution for the
    kids.  I'll never play into those hands again.
    
    cindy

    When I was five, a neighbor down the street (who was also 5) and I
    fought every weekday, we went behind the trash cans and fought.  Today,
    we are good friends, my wife and his wife are good friends and our sons
    are 2 months apart.  We joke about how our sons are going to fight
    behind the trash cans.  Kids fight, nothing to get that upset about.
    
    About the mother.  I would take her aside and tell her that if she ever
    shouted at my kid again, she will be dealing with me (actually my wife
    would do it, I would do it if it was the father)  I would explain that
    sometimes kids have to work things out on their own, but I would make
    it understood that her bahaving in that manner would not be tolerated.
    

Our neighbor has three daughters, her youngest is 5 months older than Julianne.

At first, I believed that the neighbor's daughter was much more aggressive
than Julianne, however, I now believe they can BOTH equally hold their own!!
(So it was probably just that her child had an edge on development and it
took Juli 1-1/2 years to reach the same "behavior" milestone.)

Kids will hit ... kids will fight ... kids will be kids!  Some kids will be more
aggressive than others.  Some kids act it out physically while others act it
out mentally (mind games, guilt trips, teasing, mean actions, etc.).  I would
much rather deal with the physical stuff than the mental stuff.

It's a way of life for kids ... they are growing, they are learning, they are
testing limits (with parents and peers).  I believe the parents have a 
responsibility to teach right from wrong, respect, limits, etc. ... but the
kids also need to be able to exert themselves, too.  I worry about a child who
sits back and "takes it".  A child who's overly docile and never experiences the
"real world".

So, I try to teach Julianne what's "right", knowing that she's going to play
rough sometimes ... she's going to react or follow other children's behavior ...
and she's going to react to a situation (e.g. defend herself).  It's all part
of growing up.

I try to stay out of the "scuffles" kids have ... over toys, which swing they
get, pushing, etc.  If I see a "physical strike", I correct the child (whether or
not it's mine) and remove the striking obstacle (e.g. bat) from play.  I warn
the child that another confrontation will mean they go home or my kid comes
indoors (depending on who "done it").

I have heard our neighbor "speak" to my child and she has heard me speak to
hers ... and it hasn't been a problem for either of us, however, it's done in
a nice, mature, loving way (usually!), not uncontrollable screaming and
accusations!  If I hear Cheryl correcting my child, I go outdoors and "listen"
to what happened.  If my child threw a punch or swing, then I STIFFLY warn
Juli AGAIN ... if her kid threw the punch, I let her handle it.  NEVER are the
children "un-supervised" ... which ever yard or house they are playing in has a
parent peeking out the window regularly, with at least one ear always cocked.
Usually a scuffle occurs before a strike (but not always!) ... so if you hear
the scuffle, you can get indirectly involved (go outdoors and watch from the
deck ... kids usually calm down with your physical appearance).

Kids will be kids no matter how hard you try to bestill limits and values.
It's all a learning experience for them.

Thank God we have terrific neighbors (who are always looking out for the kids
... everyone's an extended family to each other!!!) ... and the kids really do
play quite well together ... and they're all welcome from one home to the other
and one yard to the other.  Nothing the kids or parents can't work out without
screaming at EACH OTHER!  And the parents get involved ... whether or not it's
their kid(s).

We do find different values.  I expect the kids to pick up ALL toys when they're
done playing ... At Cheryl's house, it's not required.  So, when in Rome, do as
the Romans do!

(I'm just using Cheryl as an example ... we have several other kids in our
neighborhood, too.)

I'm glad I only have to deal with the kids occassionally and NOT ANOTHER PARENT!
Geessh!  I'd probably ask the parent if we could resume this conversation "after
the dust settles" and we "both" are more composed to discuss it effectively ...
and not take sides.  (I doubt my kid would 'fess up to throwing the FIRST punch
though ... so both kids are going to stand firm in being the victim) ... so you
say "if this EVER happens again, you will not be allowed to [whatever] ... and
I don't really care who threw the FIRST punch, it sounds like you BOTH did the
hitting, so let's NOT let it happen again ..." (and it would be nice if both
parents took a united, unbiased stand TOGETHER).

FWIW ... 
(You can tell Spring has sprung ... Juli's backyard was "full to capacity" this
week!)

Dottie

     I don't see anything wrong in letting your son play with the older
neighbor, at your house (of course this assumes that your neighbor will _let_
her older son come over to your house).  I would not let my son go over to
your neighbors, because you have no idea what the other woman will do or say.

>    This is very hard because a five year old doesn't understand why and  
>  adult would act in such a manner.

     In addition to what you say to your neighbor, IMO, it's also important
to say something to your son.  If you think she was unfair to your son, or
acted inappropriately, not only should you tell her, but also your son.  I
don't think you should disparage her generally, but your son needs to
understand that adults sometimes act inappropriately.  To paraphrase the
chiche, tell your son that your your neighbor's actions were bad, not that
she is a bad person.  In a way, it's very much the same thing as caused your
son to hit Chris.  He temporarily lost control, and did something that he
shouldn't have done, exactly what your neighbor did.

Clay
    

    Thanks for the comments......On Friday, my neighbor's children came in
    my yard.  I was a little nervous, especially with the younger being
    there.  Fortunately we were going out shortly after.  But of course
    when we came back from swimming they piled into our yard.  At one point
    everyone wanted to come inside, but I said no.  This is very hard for
    me because I really don't mind kids (a few) playing inside.  I have
    explained to my son that the yelling from my neighbor was not a nice
    way to act toward him.  
    
    My son did go in their yard on Friday, but I called him back in our
    yard.  It should be very interesting this summer -- we now have a
    built-in pool......
    
    I'm hoping tomorrow the mother will call me and want to discuss this
    situation.  I would love to call her, but I never did anything wrong. 
    I feel I handled the situation the best way I could.  It's unfortunate,
    but my neighbor will always let her sons go to anyone's house -- less
    aggravation for her (her house stays clean, doesn't have to feed
    snacks, doesn't have to play, etc....).
    
    

    Your neighbor doesn't have to allow other children in her house and
    neither do you.  If you don't mind, then fine, but that shouldn't mean
    others should do likewise.
    
    And I wouldn't expect your neighbor to suddenly call you for a frank
    discussion from the description you gave of her.  If it bothers you,
    then it's your move.  

Is your pool new?  Have you set up groundrules on use with your kids and 
their friends?  I don't have a pool but my neighbor does.  She will not allow
any children in the pool without one of their parents to supervise, except
on special occasions.  I support this wholeheartedly.  After all, do you
want to be responsible for these children in a potentially hazardous situation
(or more simply, do you want to spend the summer being the neighborhood life-
guard?)

BC

    I prefer to have all the kids at my house.  Then I know what they are
    up to :-)
    
    We have had a pool for several years now.  It is no problem with the
    neighbor children and I've never expected their parents to be there
    when they use the pool.  I do require that at least one of my kids is
    there.  If we're on vacation, I also ask that the neighbors who look
    after it don't let children use it unsupervised.  Any non swimmers HAVE
    to wear waterwings.
    
    When I have guests with very small children, I hand the parents water
    wings and ask them to PLEASE put them on their children.  The few extra
    seconds that gives you should a child fall in can be the difference. 
    Sometimes the parents balk ("oh, I'll keep an eye on him and anyway,
    he'll never wear them without a fight")  I'll do everything that I can
    to persuade them.  In the end, if they won't put wings on their babies,
    it turns out to be an unpleasant time all around with Mom constantly
    hopping up to keep the kid away from the pool.  We are then less likely
    to invite the family back for garden parties when the pool is
    uncovered.
    
    We've never had to lay down _strict_ rules about the use of the pool
    and now the boys are big enough to behave reasonably.  If things get
    too rambuctious, I make them all get out and "cool" off for a bit.
    
    I don't mind being the neighborhood lifeguard, either.  I think it just
    great to have a bunch of kids around.  We're also the only house with a
    basketball hoop set up (now that Dirk is 13 and 176 cm tall :-) which
    means constant teenage boys (and the occassional teenage girl :-) bouncing
    balls around.  Life couldn't be better.
    
    ccb