Conference moira::parenting

    
    Has anyone got any tips for persuading a breastfed baby to take an
    occasional bottle? My baby goes red in the face, and screams like mad
    when I try to offer a bottle. I am keen to continue breastfeeding, but
    just want the flexibility to give her a bottle occasionally.
    
    Thanks for any help!
    Andrea

    Andrea,
    
    I found with both of my kids that introducing the bottle in the second
    month seemed to work (and even then, there were some  rough times.) It
    seems that with some babies, if you wait til after two months or so,
    they have really become breast-ophiles and think a bottle is the worst
    idea anyone ever had. (Some babies seem more tolerant than that -
    neither of mine was.)
    
    I've heard that once you introduce the bottle, it's better to  give the
    baby one every day or two to reinforce the idea. It helps to have
    someone other than Mom give the bottle, otherwise they may resist,
    knowing the real thing is so close. This worked for me. Once my babies
    got used to the bottle, they would take one from me, even when I was
    still breastfeeding at other times of day.
    
    I currently nurse my daughter in the evening and early morning,  and
    she has a bottle during the day.I phased the bottle in slowly from two
    to six months, and went to the current schedule at six months (she's
    now nine months).
    
    Lucy

    I've heard more often than once that the person who breastfeeds
    the baby doesn't often have a lot of luck giving the baby a bottle,
    but other members of the household (usually mate) seems to have
    more success -- perhaps the baby identifies the mother with the 
    breastfeeding specifically.
    
    Monica

    Oh isn't that the truth. we used to say that 

     	Daddy smells like fun and
    	Mommy smells like food.
    	
    Every time I would even hold Spencer (up until about 3 months) he would 
    just start rooting on whatever was near by, it got to the point that I
    would not hold him in public because he would get all excited for food.

    	With Dad though, he would be very content just to be held.

    	They're smart, those little babies.

    	Marc was *the* only one who could give Spencer a bottle for the
    longest time, if I tried, I'd get the tears, the red face and I
    eventually would give up and just nurse him. 

    	Having them able to take a bottle is well worth the hassle though,
    it at least gives the nursing mother an opportunity to get away from
    the baby for a while.

    			Wendy

    
    We had trouble with this too. I think the earlier you introduce the
    idea the better.  We started trying to get Iain to take a bottle from
    about 4 months. At first all he did was scream and look at you as if
    you were trying to stuff a dead rat in his mouth!
    
    The breastfeeding counsellor said that the best thing is to get someone
    other than yourself to give the bottle because babies can smell the
    breastmilk and will want Mother.  She said that I shouldn't even be in
    the room and probably not even in the house!  We just persevered and
    about 2 weeks before he was due to start the creche, he started taking
    the bottle. He was 5 1/2 months. I think the main trick is just to keep
    at it.
    
    LaDonna
    

In the same light....

Kimmi Jo is nearly 18 months and is as attached to the breast as ever.  She
nurses morning and evening (twice) and on weekends about 25 times a day.  She'll
rip my clothes off when she wants her "boobie" no matter where we are.

I thought that all of my recent travels (2-3 days per week it seems) would make
her forget but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - the first thing she wants to do when
she sees me is make up for lost time.

I really don't have any problems continuing to nurse her but I do get lots of
pressure from disapproving friends and family ("She's WAY to old to be nursing")
and was wondering just how I will do it when I am ready.  My vision is that I
will have to say no to her and she will be madder than a wet hen (and I'll
likely give in!).

I didn't have to wean Kati - she quit on her own at 16 mos. (I was 4 mos.
pregnant, which is probably why) - so I have no experience with this

Thanks,
Kristen

    If your baby uses a pacifier, try to find a bottle nipple which is
    shaped like the pacifier.  This trick worked with Meredith.  Once you
    do get your baby to take the bottle, you may want to continue using the
    bottle for one or two ounces of a feeding every couple of days.  This
    is just to be sure that your baby "remembers" the bottle and wont be
    upset at the next bottle feeding.
    
    Maryann
    

    We had major problems in the area.  I waited 5 weeks to give the bottle
    a try and my son was also not on a pacifier.  I have every kind of
    nipple and bottle ever made.  We tried every variation of me in the
    room, out of the room, out of the house...not a drop was taken.  I
    started 7 weeks before I had to return to work and he still wasn't
    taking the bottle when I had to return.  My husband stayed home with
    him for a month when I came back to work and he spent most of the time
    trying to get him to eat or calm him down because he was hungry.  Talk
    about guilt!  It was all breast milk too.  I didn't even try formula
    until he was 7 months old.  I had a rented electric pump for work.   He 
    changed
    his eating schedule and was getting up every 2 hours at night to eat.
    He was gaining well so that was not a real issue.
         Relief finally came when he it the everything must go into my
    mouth phase.  It was like it never happened, any nipple any bottle...
    We actually took movies if it.  What a hurtle.
         Never again.  The next baby gets a bottle of something (water?)
    every day and a pacifier from day one.  I think if he had a pacifier
    it would have been easier because he would have been used to something
    foreign in his mouth.  You learn....
    
    
    				Mary

    Thanks for all your help. We made a little progress today. I have
    bought a new set of bottles (called "Playtex" in the UK). They are
    supposed to be most like the nipple, and the liquid is held in a bag,
    so imitates the breast action (so they say). 
    
    Lisa didn't scream this time and took about 1/4 ounce!! I breastfed her
    first so that she wasn't too hungry.
    
    I think we will continue trying everyday - and I'll take the advice
    about getting someone to do the feeding. I'll let you know how it goes!
    
    Thanks again
    Andrea

    
    Although all the books say that the mom shouldn't be the one to give
    the bottle, in the end, it worked for us. My husband was patiently
    trying to give Andy one of his first bottles and he got very cranky.
    I offered to take him to try to calm him down, which he did. I picked 
    up the bottle, offered it to him and he drank some. 
    
    For what it's worth --
    Sue
    

    Is it really true that 'babies smell mom's food'?
    
    The reason I am asking is because I am breastfeeding my baby and
    supplementing with bottles.  I lay him on the pillow and feed
    him in the football position; he will look for my breast.  When
    I hold him in my arms, he takes the bottle fine.  I strongly
    suggest anyone breastfeeding adopt the football hold...much
    easier on your arms!
    
    I think they get used to the position or the way they are being
    held and it doesn't have that much to do with 'smell'.  
    
    I also gave him bottles his 2nd day of life...he will take any
    kind of nipple and I have no problems supplementing...this was 
    the best thing I have done so far...for those that don't want
    to use formula...just give the baby water...that's what I did
    until my milk was in good...after 6 weeks.
    
    
    Kristen
    

    With my daugher (now 3 years of age) I nursed for a little less than 4
    months. Firstly, she was not too interested in breastfeeding by the
    time she was 2.5 months old. I expressed at work but could not get too
    much. So since she was 2 months old she was on breastmilk and formula.
    She did not have any problems. I used to feel bad since I wanted to
    nurse at least for 6 months. But then I saw that she was not too
    thrilled with formula either. She could not wait to get to solid food.
    So at 4 months we started giving her solids (ground up veggies, rice,
    lentils,etc.). I guess she was just too eager to grow up :-)
    
    Shaila

    Lately 10-month-old Holly has been sort of brushing off her
    bedtime bottle.  Sometimes she'll drain it right down, sometimes
    she'll take a few ounces, lately she's tired at bedtime and
    pushes it away.  Should I try settling her without the bottle?
    As I said, she's only 10 months old.  It doesn't make any real
    difference to me -- and I have heard that the bedtime bottle is
    the hardest one to give up for most kids -- but 10 months seems
    young to not get a bedtime "ba."  James gave his bottles up
    all at once at the ripe old age of 15 months.  Any thoughts out
    there?
    

    Rebecca (13 months) has given up her morning bottle, but not her
    bedtime one yet! That is the only one she has the whole day.  I think
    it is a good time to take it away when the child is not interested 
    in it anymore.  Which what this sounds like.  Try replacing a cup
    of whatever she drinks, and see what happens.  I hope she gives hers
    up soon!  Because I heard it is not good for the teeth!
    
    Just my .02
    Kim
    
    

    re basenote
    
    My daughter was the exact same way at 10 months. So I stopped giving
    herr the bedtime bottle and it was an easy transition! She never asked
    for it back. I also gave her a cup at every meal from the age of 8
    months. She was so interested in the cup, she would push any bottle way
    when I offered them to her. She was totally bottle free at 12 months.
    
    Sandy
    
    

    I had expected the bedtime bottle to be the last to go with Ryan, but
    found that as he ate more at supper, he also wanted his liquids then.
    Eating supper at 5:30 or so, and then offering another bottle at 7 or
    7:30 seemed a bit much to me, so we got rid of the bedtime bottle that
    way.
    
    With Christopher, now 9 months, he has his bottle at 5 and supper right
    after it. Doesn't have a bedtime bottle at 7:00, though sometimes he'll
    have bit of juice before he goes in the tub.
    

    Jacob (will be 1 yr. on May 31st), sometimes doesn't get his bedtime
    bottle, casue we forget or a babysitter forgets. Doesn't bother *him*
    one way ro the other! We'll probably wean him off it soon, but he's
    still not awfully proficient on a cup, and only takes 3 bottles a day
    (of milk) counting the bedtime one. We'll do without when he can use
    the cup more proficiently. I think, frankly, we enjoy it more than he
    does... holding him close and cuddling before bed.
    
    --dave--

    I doubt that there would be much nutritional fallout from discontinuing
    the evening bottle; at 10 months she must be chowing down more and more
    on "real people" food.
    
    Leslie

    
    As Anna started eating more "real people" meals she started showing
    less interest in the bottle. She hasn't had a breakfast bottle in 2
    months, a bedtime bottle in 1 month, and we're working on that naptime
    bottle. She didn't seem to miss the bedtime bottle at all, but the
    juice in a bottle to settle her for a nap has been difficult. This one
    is actually the babysitter's problem to deal with. I actually don't
    have that much trouble getting her to take a nap without a bottle, but 
    the situation is totally different: it's home, no other kids playing,
    etc. Anna just turned 1 year old on May 3rd. I thought it was going to
    be difficult weaning her and it's been a breeze, but then again she
    weaned from breast to bottle without a fight also.
    
    Patty

    Chelsea is 2.3 yrs old and has always LOVED her bottles.  At her two
    year check up her doctor told me that the enamel on her top two teeth
    was starting to wear off from bottle usage and we should really try to
    wean her.  We had been waiting (okay, taking the easy way out..) for
    her to show some signs of giving them up.  She has taken a cup for over
    a year and when at day care (2-3 days a week) NEVER asks for or gets a
    bottle (hasn't in a LONG LONG time at daycare).  But at home...well,
    that's a different story...  Her doctor recommended we see a pediatric
    dentist to check into having her teeth sealed.  (Perhaps more
    appropriate in another note, but does anyone have any experience w/Dr.
    McAveeney in Amherst, NH?)  Anyway..
    
    She will NOT take a nap at home w/o a bottle , however, does at
    school/daycare w/o a bottle.  We have tried letting her scream it out,
    but she has gone for several days w/o a nap if she doesn't get a
    bottle.  With a bottle, it's usually lights out, no problem.  She also
    will not go to sleep at night w/o a bottle.  When she gets very upset
    she says "I need a bottle", so I think it is largely a comfort thing. 
    She found a pacifier a few weeks ago (we are due w/Cchild number 2 in
    July and I was cleaning out Chelsea's old clothes etc).  She never took
    a pacifier as an infant, but we had several around and when she found
    one she now loves to have it in her mouth.  Pretty weird since she
    didn't have one as an infant , now as a two + year old, likes it.  I
    try to keep it hidden and tell her it is lost, etc.  But once in a
    while, she will get hysterical for her paci too...  Does she sound like
    she just needs the "sucky" comfort and isn't ready to give this up?  If
    so, what about her teeth problem?  Any comments/suggestions?
    
    Thanks a lot,
    
    Paula

    
    My Pedi told me that 2+ years can be fairly rough... they need some
    sort of security blanket... My 2yr, 5 mo still uses the pacifer (and
    humorously, will carry 1-2 "backups" often!) and wants them togo to bed
    with at night.
    
    triccks and tactics to cut down on the use:
    	for pacifers.. we have "breaks", where we don't use the pacifier. 
    It's out, it's available, but while we're outside, playing with "x', or
    reading books, for example, we keep the pacifier out.
    
    	No pacifiers at the table while eating.  Again, it's visible, it's
    reachable, but it's not in the mouth.
    
    
    For bottles, try substituting a sipper cup, and if you haven't made the
    switch to water, now's a good time.   Our duaghter used tohave a bottle
    while we read prior to puttingher in bed for the night.  We changed
    to water one week, then changed to a sipper cup about 10 days after
    that. You may just have to be firm.  
    
    FWIW
    Jamd

    I, too, had a baby that wouldn't take a bottle. It was a rough struggle
    to get her to take it so I'd like to share what we did while it's
    fresh (this is day 2 at daycare). At 3 weeks of age my husband fed
    Carolyn a 2oz. bottle. It took him approx. 1.5 hours. I thought great
    and didn't expect a problem since we had no problems with Justine
    taking a bottle. Well Carolyn was a fussier baby and having her take a
    bottle in the evening when my husband got home wasn't working out. When
    we went to try again it was just as others described, she screamed for
    about 2 hours until she fell asleep exhausted. After about 5 days of
    this with both my husband and myself trying to give her the bottle, she
    took 3 oz. We kept offering the bottle after this with marginal success
    and conditions had to be perfect. So yesterday I was very worried it
    wouldn't go. The first bottle my sitter offered was turned down and she
    went to sleep after about 5 minutes of crying. When she woke up after
    that she was hungry enough that she took the bottle. My husband picked
    the girls up and she even took a bottle from him.
    
    I think the trick was one day when my husband just decided this was the
    day and no feeding her until she drinks from a bottle. Of course, it
    was a little easier decision for us because Carolyn weighed 14 lbs 3 oz
    at her one month check up.

    How long do you go before you give in and give the baby the breast?  My
    daughter is 2 months old and this past week has been horrible trying to
    get her to take a bottle of expressed milk.
    
    I guess I blew it big time, at 3 1/2 weeks my husband gave her her
    first bottle with no problems and then gave her a few bottles in the
    weeks that followed, but we got kind of lazy for about 2 weeks and
    didn't bottle feed her.  We tried starting up again last week and she
    just screamed until you thought she'd explode.  Last night my husband
    was able to get her to drink 1.5 oz but only after a 4 hour struggle.
    
    Should we just not give her the breast until she after she takes the
    bottle (she's very healthy and is gaining weight well) or do we just
    keep trying every night for an hour or two and hope that one day she'll
    just take it?  I'm not planning on going back to work until September
    but it would be awfully nice to be able to go out for a few hours and
    know she'll eat.
    
    Susan

    My little boy never took a bottle after the first three weeks. We made
    the same mistake as you - not trying  for a couple of weeks, and he
    never took one again.   I once didn't breast feed him for 8 hours, all
    the time trying to get him to take a bottle, because my health visitor
    said if I just refused to give him anything but a bottle he'd take it
    in the end.  She underestimated him!  We were both in a pretty terrible
    state by the end of 8 hours.
    
    Finally somebody suggested I try using a trainer cup.  He was about
    three months.  He wasn't too keen at first, but he didn't scream the
    way he did if we tried to give him a bottle. By 4 to 4 1/2 months
    he was drinking from it quite happily.
    
    
    
    Heather

    I will list some things that "appear" to have helped us get Carolyn to
    take a bottle but it sounds like you must have tried these already.
    
    We can only use NUK nipples and actually (this might have been
    coincidence) but she liked the regular size vs. the newborn at 2
    months. This may be because my daughter is large (super colosal baby),
    she looks to be about 6 months and she's only 3 months.
    
    We also had a stand off day with her. She would cry herself to sleep
    rather than drink from a bottle. I left her with my sitter for 4 hours
    and after only 15 minutes of crying she drank 3 oz. Maybe you could
    find a female such as grandma to help you give her a bottle. My sitter
    said at first she had to resort to trickery. She would hold Carolyn
    like she was going to nurse her and pop the nipple in sideways.
    
    I gave her a bottle ( or rather kept sticking it in her mouth ) in her
    carseat as we were driving. I also pumped breastmilk and gave it to her
    immediately after. All of this was in the two weeks prior to my
    returning to work. This made me more anxious to go back to work because
    I knew if I delayed much longer this would get more difficult. I also
    got a pacifier with the NUK nipple and would stick that in her mouth to
    get her used to the nipple. She still doesn't like the pacifier but
    sucks her thumb.
    
    Good luck, I never expected to have the problems that I did and until
    you live through it you don't know how miserable this can be. Now my
    daughter takes a bottle like nothing was wrong. I am curious how she
    did today after a 4 day weekend.
    
    Jan

    re .31 and .32
    
    Thanks for the suggestions, while she still isn't taking the bottle, I
    do feel better knowing that we're not alone in this.
    
    I've tried NUK newborn nipples, regular-sized nipples, playtex nipples
    and evenflo orthodontic nipples (these were the ones she originally
    drank with), doesn't make a difference whether it's rubber or silicone,
    either.  
    
    I have had a variety of people try to give her the bottle and the only
    ones that came the closest were my grandparents (and they are returning
    to Florida on Thursday 8^(  ) Tonight I have aerobics so my husband
    will try again while I am out.
    
    I called the Nursing Mother's Council yesterday and they suggested
    trying an eye dropper to see if she'd get frustrated at only getting a
    little bit at a time and then take the nipple and also the sippy cup
    suggestion.
    
    I know we just have to be persistant, but it sure is frustrating. 
    However, aside from being stubborn about this (hmm, I wonder where she
    gets that from?????) she really is a super baby.
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll let you know if we find something
    that works.
    
    Susan

    When we were going through this, we did not endure each battle.  We
    would try, and if he refused, I did give in and give him the breast.  I
    felt that there aren't many things that this little person has control
    over, and I didn't feel that it was my place to force him.  This may
    sound implausible, but it worked for us.  It only took a few days.
    
    One other excellent suggestion that I got from La Leche League was to
    give him the bottle to play with.  Everything goes into the mouth
    anyway, right?  So, when he would put it in his mouth anyway, we would
    then encourage him to drink from it.  Sometimes, it worked, others it
    didn't.
    
    And, one other point.  In our case, at certain times, he was less
    resistant than others.  For example, upon awakening from a nap, he
    would take it fine (too drousy to notice?).
    
    So, I guess my point is to try to respect the baby's desires, let him
    have some say in the matter, and give it a few days.  Maybe we were
    lucky, but it did work.
    
    Leslie

    We encountered this with our daughter too.  We owned EVERY nipple ever
    manufactured in an attempt to find one she would take....What we
    did learn after a few days of pure agony for her father who was
    home with her when I went back to work, we discovered that the
    temperature of the bottle was key.  Ashley would only drink very
    warm breast milk.  I guess she was used to it coming from mom at
    a very consistent temperature and was not happy when the milk
    in the bottle cooled down even a little bit!
    
    What did we do.  We had two bottles with 2 oz. of milk.  Feed from
    one when it was warm, keep the second warm and switch half way 
    thru....Only had to do this for about a week and Ashley started
    to adjust.
    
    Ashley was a all or nothing baby, so getting her to nurse from me
    once she adjusted to the bottle was not easy.  We had to spend
    more time getting ready to nurse, skin to skin contact etc.
    
    One more thing comes to mind....Ashley also HATED being held to
    take the bottle.  We had to sit her in her infant seat or prop
    her up on pillows and hold the bottle for her.  This lasted for
    a couple weeks before she would even consider being held and
    fed from a bottle.
    
    Funny how they like to find things they can control...even at
    that age!
    
    Sharon

    It's funny how early they develop preferences, isn't it?  Steven
    would drink his milk straight out of the refrigerator and David
    wanted his hot, not jsut warm.  
    
    --bonnie

    I have sort of the opposite problem than most women writing in this
    note.
    Charlotte is now 2 months old (How time flys!). As I mentioned in
    another note, she lost a lot of weight after the 1st 3 weeks, and the
    pedi suggested supplimenting her. So, up until now she's been feeding
    on the average every four hours, 20-30 minutes per breast and then
    2-4 oz of formula. 
    Now, she has the bad habit of pushing against me with her hands while
    pulling sideways and popping off my nipple every third or fourth suck.
    This will happen most often at the last feeding of the day (she skips
    a middle-of-the-night feeding, so we all get good rest)
    She's doing this more often as time goes on, making me sore and
    frustrated and she doesn't get as much from me as usual.
    Honestly, I am not finding breast-feeding as charming an experience as 
    others say it is, but I have been so inundated with pro-breastfeeding
    material that I am suffering from massive guilt about even thinking of
    weening her..
    The other side of the story is that I am still very overweight (did
    not really loose as a result of feeding; did not have the opportunity
    for much exercise since I was so overtired from her being colicky
    during the first weeks (she's better now though). My doctor has just
    put me on a diet since I have high cholesterol, so I want to go back to
    weight watchers (just about the exact same diet anyway). I am very
    tired of carrying around these 38-G feeding jugs. 
    Alas, I have a lot of mixed emotions about this (especially when I
    am hearing a lot of stories of friends breasting feeding for 6 mos to a
    year.
    Sigh........
    
    Monica

    Monica - try not to feel guilty.   I went thru EXACTLY what you
    are feeling right now.   I was one of those Mom's who just didn't enjoy
    breastfeeding, but felt that I HAD to do it for my baby.  This 
    made for alot of guilt and frustration.  Matthew, too, was a
    colicky baby and that can be extremely difficult to handle, especially
    for a first time mom.   So that, on top of feeding difficulties, made
    me start thinking I was not meant to be a mom.   I had a VERY rough
    first couple of months.  I went back to work after 8 weeks and tried
    pumping but just couldn't do it so ended up weaning Matthew entirely
    at about 9 weeks.   I can't tell you the relief I felt.  That may
    sound awful to some people, but I just never enjoyed the breastfeeding
    experience, and Matthew didn't seem to miss it either.  He took right
    to the bottle.   I had always heard that you should breastfeed as long
    as possible to help build up the baby's immune system.  Well, Matthew
    never even had a cold till after his first birthday so he must've 
    gotten enough during the first 2 months!!  I guess bottomline is, DON'T
    feel guilty if you decide to wean Charlotte completely.  She'll be fine
    and you might just feel 100% better!!   As far as the weight loss, I
    didn't lose anything while breastfeeding - of course I didn't exercise
    either.   If you'd like to talk more offline, please feel free to 
    write thru mail.    This got a bit long, didn't it!  Take care of
    yourself, Monica.      
    
    Lila
    
    
    
    

Monica,

Don't let anybody lay a guilt trip on you!  Not every woman finds breast 
feeding a joy and not every baby thrives on it.  I too wanted to breast feed
Dirk but he was a very poor sucker, nursed forever and still needed 
supplementing, got gastrointestinitis at 5 weeks and I dried up.  The guilt I
felt in hearing this baby cry was terrible.  And that with the fact that I had
gone back to work full time 4 weeks after he was born.  He did much better on
the bottle.

I think that all you can do is give it your best shot, get help from La Leche 
or similar, look after yourself, and then go with your own gut feeling.

I know that breast feeding is the best and it is great if you can manage but
having a healthy baby and mother is the real goal.  The guilt is doing no one
any good.

Just MO of course. :-)

ccb

    
    
    	I'm one of those mothers who does love breast feeding, but I agree,
    if you don't like it, don't let anyone guilt you into it!  I had a very
    hard time at first - Callan wouldn't latch on, sometimes it would take
    20 minutes or more!  I thought of giving up breast feeding every day
    for the first three weeks, but felt guilty for even thinking it. 
    Eventually things worked out, and now I still love it, but that was
    the right decision only for ME.  
    
    
    	I know that they say "breast is best", but I'm tired
    of hearing it all the time, every where you go.  People should make
    decisions based on what makes them happy and what works for them.  I
    don't think that it needs to be printed on every can of formula and in
    every ad, in every baby magazine...  it's no wonder women feel guilty
    if they don't breast feed! 
    
    	Good luck!
    
    	Justine

    Monica,
    Don't let *anyone* make you feel guilty about your choices for you and
    your family.  You have fed Charlotte yourself for 2 months and that is 
    wonderful.  If now it is beginning to work less well then you are right
    to consider a change.  I have found that babies are very sensitive to
    our feelings.  If I am upset or unhappy about something, then Iain will
    be upset as well.  Do what works the best and what makes you happy and
    comfortable.  If you are happy, Charlotte will be happy.  In my opinion
    all the good of breastfeeding is undone if it becomes stressful for
    everyone.
    
    If I had had to give up breastfeeding at 2 months and someone commented
    about it, I would have felt within my rights to be extremely rude to
    them!  It's none of their business.
    
    All the Best,
    
    LaDonna

    After bottle-feeding Kat for medical reasons (I was too unwell for
    it) and Steven for family reasons (because Neil felt he'd be left
    out if he didn't get to share in the feeding) I finally gave in to
    the breastfeeding propaganda and nursed David.  
    
    I didn't have any problems, David fed well, no particular pain --
    and I still didn't like it.  I didn't like feeling like a milk cow
    and I didn't like feeling like I was this little person's personal
    servant.  I didn't feel all wonderful and womanly, and I didn't
    feel any more intimate with David at the breast than I did with
    Steven and Kat in my arms with a bottle.  I was real glad when
    going back to work gave me a good excuse to wean.  
    
    Breastfeeding might be better for the child but there are two
    people in the equation, and one of them is the mother.  You need
    to take both of you into account.  
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s. Steven, the bottle-fed one, has had maybe two colds in his
    life and so far is the only one who shows no signs of allergies.
    He didn't even get conjuctivitis when every other kid in his
    nursery class did.  David, the breastfed one, has had ear
    infections, colds, flu, and a constant runny nose, apparently from
    allergies.  So while statistically breastfed babies might have
    fewer problems, there's no telling how your particular baby will
    react.

    	I breastfed Spencer completely for the first four months and almost
    ran myself into the ground (remember the note in V2 asking when I would
    ever start feeling well again?) Once he started eating solids, I
    stopped pumping (something that I *hated* doing) and started relying on
    soy formula with breast feeding in the morning, evening and on weekends
    (at one point I was getting up every hour at night to feed him because
    he was so big and he was just not getting enough food) and once he
    started pulling and not nursing well (leaving me very full and sore at
    times) I said that that was it and stopped completely at 6 months.

    	I am not a martyr and if it had been difficult (ok, more difficult
    than it was) I would have definitely stopped sooner.

    	Although nursing was okay, I, like Bonnie, did not like the fact
    that I often felt like a cow always at the beck and call for feeding.

    	Spencer had a solid cold from December to March, had to be
    hospitalized in March for three days and still gets an occasional cold
    and/or ear infection. So much for the immune system being stronger.

    	As far as weight, after the first month, I did not lose *any* more
    until two months after I stopped nursing. I panicked and joined weight
    watchers (the plan for idiots where they tell you exactly what to eat)
    and lost 9 pounds in 7 weeks. I guess that my body had to be sure that
    I did not need the additional weight for nursing anymore. I'm now back
    down where I should be (except for that blubbery paunch but that's
    another note isn't it?;-))

    			Wendy

    I am also breastfeeding my daugher who will be 6 months on Tuesday.  I
    have encountered similar problems to the previous noters.  I am in the
    process of totally weaning my daughter and I also have immense guilt
    about doing it.  My mother watches my baby during the day and we
    supplement with formula in the morning and at noon I go to my mother's
    house on my lunch hour to nurse.  When I go home at night I nurse twice
    in the evening and then again in the middle of the night.  Needless to
    say I am getting tired.  I also need to lose about 20 1bs that is
    hanging on from the pregnancy.  I think that with some women the weight
    hangs on while you're nursing.  I have heard some women say nursing
    does wonders for their figures but I'm not one of them.
    
    To make my point my mother has been laying a guilt trip on me for
    wanting to wean my daugther so soon.  Since we have been giving the
    baby solid foods her interest in breastfeeding is slacking off.  She
    does very well with the bottle and I know I will not have any trouble
    weaning her.  
    
    I am going to try to listen to my heart and do what is best for the
    baby and me.  My daughter has been extremely healthy and I'm certain
    that switching to the bottle permanently she will remain healthy.
    
    I can sympathize with you Monica and know exactly how you feel.  Hang
    in there!

    Thank you all for such quick replies! Makes me feel much better that
    I am not the only one who's had these thoughts. 
    I don't really MIND nursing Charlotte, nor do I feel that I am at her
    beck and call for this (I guess this is because I already suppliment
    her and that is a great backup for times where I DO feel fed up).
    I think it is both the discomfort and frustration when she pulls away
    (sometimes I am of the feeling that she does this when she has her
    gas attacks and is generally in a cranky mood from it) -- as well,
    it is the size I am now. Hubby and I have even discussed breast
    reduction once we decide not to have anymore children. I am one
    of those women who have permanent shoulder welts even when I am
    not nursing. 
    I think what I might do is decrease the breast feeding for the next
    few weeks to about 15 minutes a side, then we'll see if that changes
    how I feel. 
    As far as immunity is concerned, thanks for some enlightening counter
    examples. Up to now I am stuck with the examples of my brother and 
    my husband, who, having both been bottle babies, have had a number of 
    colds and flus as kids (my brother Steven especially!) and have a LOT
    of allergies as adults. 
    One thing I find curious is that I have seen studies of breast-feeding
    vs. bottle feeding, but never have they discussed the LENGTH OF TIME
    that these babies were breast fed. Its not a black&white issue. Is it
    MUCH better for baby to be breastfed 6 months vs. 3 months? How much
    better? I also read of a new study that explains its not the breast 
    feeding that makes a baby an all around better person (better immunity,
    better behaviour, better marks, better taste in clothes 8-) ) but that 
    the baby was more often held.
    
    Just some more thinking outloud....
    
    Monica

    
    Monica, I can relate to the "size" problem you were talking about. That 
    was one of my main reasons for NOT breastfeeding. Being a 38C already,
    (and not real happy about it) I was not sure I would be very happy
    carrying the extra weight on me (don't I have enough!), and on my back,
    than I have already.  
    
    I had to fight all the looks and advice on "breast is best", etc...and
    it was tough. I "slightly" feel like I might have missed something by
    not having had the "experience" of breastfeeding, but the convienience
    of the bottle feeding is something that I enjoyed very much.  I do
    think I may "try" to breastfeed when I have another child, but if it 
    doesn't go well for either of us, I won't feel guilty for NOT
    breastfeeding.  I just want to say I "tried it" and gave it my best
    shot (in case I do enjoy it, and the extra breast weight is bearable).
    
    Do what YOU feel is right.
    
    Chris
    

    
    Re: .46 and bottle convenience.
    
    It's odd.  I felt that breast feeding was much more convenient than
    bottles.  Always available, always the right temperature, no bottles  
    to wash or sterilize.  I was one of those women who did not feel the
    least bit inhibited about breastfeeding *anywhere* (I was lucky). I
    even fed in T.G.I.Friday's in Reading while having my own lunch!  I did
    not have a size problem though.  Being pregnant and lactating is the
    first time in my life that I had a clevage!
    
    different strokes,
    
    LaDonna

    Count me in as another mother that dislikes breastfeeding.
    I did it because everyone said I should.  I never enjoyed the
    experience.  It was a big relief for me when I stopped.  Regarding
    baby's health, I have seen many healthy bottle-fed babies.  My
    neighbor's kid was breastfed for the first 6 months, he is 
    a frequent visitor of the hospital.  So much for the theory.
    
    Wendy  

    
    	I have a friend I work with that loves to breast fed.  
    
    	She is always on my case about it's better for the baby
    	(I am not even pregnant yet).. 
    
    	I am 38DD and I don't look forward one bit to breast
    	feeding.  She is built like a board and couldn't possible
    	know what it's like to always have guys bumping into you
    	just of the jollies or having guys look at your chest well
    	there talking with you.. 
    
    	For me personally I know that I am not going to breast fed
    	I have enough emotional problems with what I am carring around
    	now.. 
    
    	If she doesnt' like it that's just to bad - its my body.

    I fully agree with Wendy in .34.   You do not need to breastfeed your
    baby to have him/her healthy.  I was unable to breastfeed Daniel, and
    thank God! he is healthy, only suffering from the odd head cold.
    
    
    
    Bernie

I was practically forced to breastfeed my babies, and I hated it.  Of course,
I had my twins at 28 weeks, so breastfeeding amounted to me hooking up to a
breastpump every 3-4 hours to express milk so it could be tube-fed to the kids.
My friends used to describe avoiding crying babies otherwise their milk would
let down, but I never understood that feeling.  I had to avoid things with
motors!  I just felt like a cow at a dairy always attached to some milking 
machine.  I think I really resented it because when I pumped at the hospital,
my husband would get to visit with the babies, so pumping cut into my visiting
time, and I resented it a great deal.

To make it worse, when Jessica was finally able to breastfeed, she didn't want
to as it was too much work for her.  She'd nurse for an hour then look at me
and demand a bottle.  Seems like I was just the appetizer.  And Brad couldn't
tolerate breastmilk, though I think he would have enjoyed nursing if he had
been able to take the milk.

I swore if we had more children, I'd never breastfeed.  It wasn't the best 
experience for me, and I won't bow to that pressure again.  I think each mother
should decide for herself what she wants to do.

    Just to add one more opinion...I never thought breastfeeding was
    the profound experience it was cracked up to be, although there
    was something very nice about snuggling up with an infant (and both
    mine sure liked it). The main thing for me was, as mentioned,
    convenience. No preparation, always available, and easy. I know
    this is not the case for everybody, and yes, there are drawbacks,
    but I found nursing to be less hassle than bottles.
    
    Lucy

    
    One thing that I've noticed with Spencer that I assume is a result of
    breastfeeding him, is that he *loves* absolutely loves me to hold him
    in the nursing position (sort of cupped in my lap with one arm around
    his head and one under his legs and me bent over him) when he is
    getting a bottle. It's almost the tighter of a ball he is, the more
    comfortable he feels.
    
    He's learned how to hold onto a bottle and feed himself but *nothing*
    calms him as quickly or as well as "the mommy hold". He does not like
    anyone else to hold him this way for feeding (not even Marc) which
    makes me thing it might be related to the nursing.
    
    
    			Wendy

    Several replies from this string have been relocated (I almost type
    relactated - WHOOPS!) to note 224, which is about breastfeeding and
    working.  
    
    Note 34 will continue to be about weaning from breast or bottle.
    
    Laura
    co-mod
    

<    I think it is both the discomfort and frustration when she pulls away
<    (sometimes I am of the feeling that she does this when she has her
<    gas attacks and is generally in a cranky mood from it) -- as well,
 

Monica,

I think it was PARENTING V2 which had all the good suggestions for 
this.  Both my children pulled away and latched on and off about 3 to 4
months.  Even my daughter who refused a bottle in any form! The stage 
usually lasts about 2 weeks.

Some things to try:

	The milk might not be flowing fast enough - try switching to the
        other breast.

	Nurse in a quiet, darkened room - with fewer distractions

	Babies usually have a preferred breast (always my right) give
        them the less preferred breast when they are the most hungry and
        apt to be less distracted

	Try a different "hold" - the famous football hold allows them to
        see things from a different angle

        (My mother was a big help with this one) Gently hold the back of 
        baby's head so she can't turn away from the breast - she'll probably
        fuss (I would have had to grow another arm to do it by myself)

I too have always had more breast tissue than I ever wanted.  However, after
about 4 months of breastfeeding - I started shrinking {sizewize} even though
I was still breastfeeding. By 12 months I was my old size {not shape} again.

I read an article somewhere that claimed you actually have a net loss of breast
tissue after breastfeeding is finally over! Don't hire that plastic surgeon yet.

Awaiting #3,

Rochelle  

    Well, it looks like my days of breastfeeding will soon be over.  I feel
    sad and guilty at the same time.  My daughter is now 6 months old and
    for the past month and a half she has been receiving formula during the
    day and I have been nursing her at night and in the morning.  I guess
    the straw that broke the camel's back was what occurred last night.
    After I nursed her when I got home in the evening it wasn't ten minutes
    later that she had the worst crying spell.  Well, I thought it was gas
    and proceeded to give her some Mylicon (sp?).  That didn't solve her
    problem.  She still cried pitifully.  I then proceeded to rock her and
    sing to her.  That didn't help.  I then boiled some water and gave her
    4 ozs of formula.  That solved the problem.  It quited her down and
    within 30 minutes she was asleep.  I have felt that for the past 2
    weeks that my milk supply was dwindling.  Yesterday I didn't even feel
    a letdown of any kind and thought the end was near.  I really wanted to
    continue until she was at least 10 months old but nature is saying
    otherwise.  
    
    My mother suggested that when I take my baby to the doctor tomorrow
    that he can prescribe some pills that will help me dry up completely.
    Has anyone ever heard of this?
    
    I will feel very weepy all weekend I am sure.  I can only hope and pray
    that my baby remains healthy.
    

    Not to push anything you don't want on you but this might not have to
    be the end. At six months your daughter could be having a growth spurt.
    She will want more nurishment at this time and if you continue nursing
    your supply will catch up. You might want to help your supply along by
    drinking extra fluids and try expressing/pumping milk once a day while
    your at work. Also nurse a lot this weekend. I nursed my first for 19
    months and there were a couple of times during that period where I
    thought this was it but with a little extra attention in a week or two
    things were back to normal.
    
    Of course you need to do what's right for you and your baby but if you
    are having regrets this doesn't have to be it. 
    
    Good luck , Jan

    I'm not sure if this question should go here or in a note of it's own,
    but I would like others experiences, opinions when it comes to changing
    baby from formula to milk.  
    
    Karen will be 1 year old Aug. 2 and it is time to give her milk in
    place of formula.  She has had milk so far, but doesn't seem to like 
    it as much as the formula.  
    
    Which is the best way that you have found.  Introduce milk gradually
    1-2 bottles a day and work up to all milk or change "cold turkey"?
    
    She has a very good appetite and eats most "grown-up foods" so I
    am not too worried about her getting the nutrition, but I find it
    difficult to take away the formula if she prefers it.
    
    Thanks for any advice

    re: .58
    
    Or here's another method that worked for us: introduce milk mixed 
    *with* the formula, gradually increasing the ratio of milk to 
    formula.   We had to take it slowly both because our son preferred
    his formula and because it took a while for his system to adjust to
    the whole milk (spit up, etc.).
    
    Carol

    Re .59
    
    Thanks Carol,  that is one option that I didn't even think of, but will
    definately try.

    reply to .56 and .57
    
    I suffered the same fate, at almost exactly the same time.  Even
    though I tried nursing more on the weekends and pumping, nothing
    seemed to increase the supply.    Even the powerful la-leche league pumps
    did not express well for me.  Perhaps I was too nervous and stressed
    but I could not tolerate the thought of Alex not getting enough.
    She was hungry and I wasn't producing enough.  I, too, hated 
    giving up breastfeeding.  I have friends who continued for almost
    3 years.  Was so envious!
    
    Kathy      

    I also switched from formula to milk (and from Pregestimil formula to
    regular formula) by mixing the two.  I started with 1/4 new with 3/4
    old, then 1/2 and 1/2, then full strength.  They tell you to make the
    change over a few weeks, but I typically did it over 2-3 days.  Once
    they show no reaction over 24 hours, it's usually OK to make another
    change.  That's how they do it in the hospital, so I saw no reason to
    drag it out longer.  Plus when I was switching from Pregestimil to
    regular formula, I pushed it faster as I did not want to buy another
    can of Pregestimil (not at $20 per can!) so I just pushed him to the
    regular formula and he tolerated it well.
    
    If your child tends to take some time before reacting to a change, you
    might want to take longer in doing the switch.  With my kids,
    especially Brad, there was never any question if something didn't agree
    with him as he declared himself quite rapidly and without a doubt when
    a change was not what he had in mind.
    
    I also switched to milk at around 9 months as the doctor said we could
    begin switching and have them on whole milk before 1 year.  They were
    switched within the week (I just used up what formula I had left and
    didn't buy anymore).
    
    Cathy

    As a response to the previous suggestions (thank you for them, by
     the way)
    - Charlotte and I have been using the football hold practically since
      she cam home from the hospital. I found this way I had the most
    control for a big baby and a large breast (I always had trouble
    checking to see if her nose was covered in the other position).
    
    - right now she has the most trouble with the left breast after 5-10
      minutes of feeding. It seems to be a little better when I start
      with the other breast, ironically, so we have been going right-left
      each feeding. 
    - I reduced the time to 15 minutes per side, sometime will not even 
      tolerate that long before the bottle.
    - she sleeps from 11 to 6, and usually in the morning feeding she
      doesn't require a suppliment before going back to sleep. 
    I think though, that her demands are starting to increase again - she
    consistantly gloms down 4oz of formula, and is not sleepy as she used
    to be - i.e. satisfied.
    Onto the big bottles, I guess.
    I have decided to continue until at least the beginning of August - 
    that'll be three months, and then decide what I am going to do. My 
    mother admitted to me the other day that I was not breastfed past three
    months either - as another large and hungry baby she too was getting
    sore and agrevated with breastfeeding.
    Makes me feel a lot better. 
    
    Monica

    Monica,
    For what it's worth, I remember reading somewhere that babies get the
    majority of the milk in the first 4-6 minutes on each side. I'll try
    to remember where I read that (Spock's book, maybe?)
    
    sue
    

     My daughter is 9 weeks old and take 6 oz of SMA white cap,but she seems
    to we hungry all the time.the health visitor told us not to give her
    any more than that.Sometimes she only goes 2� hours then she want fed
    again.She was 4,6 at birth and is now 9,6.Should we start to wean her?.
    
    SCott

    
    I think that flexibility should be the key - perhaps she is going
    through a growth spurt - Charlotte went through a few of those - I
    also noticed that sometimes she gets more from the breast than at
    other times, and so maybe more or less from the bottle. And sometimes
    she isn't as hungry as other times. If Mom is feeling too
    fed-up/frustrated with breast feeding, you can probably reduce, and 
    make up for it in formula - consult your doctor - a "health visitor"
    should not have the last word on this issue. 
    
    So far I am hanging in with 10min /breast and more formula (depending
    on feeding) the early morning feeding is just breast, the midmorning
    feeding just bottle (yesterday 10oz!). I will change the schedule
    a little more when MY breasts get used to this. Today is the first
    day I haven't woken up engorged and leaking (her last feeding she
    doesn't want my breast very much).
    
    Anyway, time for that midmorning feeding....
    
    Monica
    

    
    My son (7 1/2 months) seems to have stopped having *any* interest 
    in his bottles these days.  He might take a 7-oz bottle in the morning 
    but refuses any bottles during the day.  He seems to prefer water.
    
    We are giving him milk/formula with each meal in a cup (but most
    of it runs down his front).  He seems to like the challenge of the
    cup over the bottle.  And we are putting milk in most of what he
    eats (e.g. cereal, mashed potatoes etc.) but that doesn't account
    for much (1-3 oz at each meal maximum).
    
    At first, I thought it was just because of the heat.  Yet now as it 
    is cooling off, he still shows no interest.  I read in places that 
    kids at this age should be taking 24 oz of milk!
               
    Should this be something to worry about?  It just seems like such
    a turn around for a kid who was drinking 5 or 6  7-oz bottles a day
    just 2 months ago!
    
     Carol

    
    My daughter Avanti (now 3) did that as well (and still does it - hate
    milk that is). We had a heck of a time feeding her with a bottle when
    she was little. We even tried feeding her with a spoon when she was 3
    months old. She just plain hated milk/formula. So it was a struggle.
    She gave us the most hassle around the age of 3 months and 7-8 months.
    It was like a wave - one month she would drink well and not the next.
    Our pedi told us not to worry since Avanti liked solid food and we used
    to give her mashed veggies, rice, etc (add milk while mashing) since
    she was 4 months old. As long as she was healthy we were told not to
    worry.
    
    She still does not like milk (takes after Mom) and we have to play many
    games to get her to drink any - of course in the warm months she eats
    ice cream which makes up some of the quota. Of course, she drinks milk
    at daycare (peer pressure I guess).
    
    Shaila

    As my family doctor reminds me, it's not the milk that is of value -
    it's the calcium. Yogurt offers 2x the calcium than milk so you could
    easily eliminate milk and replace it with yogurt to meet the dietary
    need for calcium.
    
    

>    As my family doctor reminds me, it's not the milk that is of value -
>    it's the calcium. 

That's partly true, but the fat content of milk is also of considerable 
importance in early childhood development, which is the reason why skim
milk for infants is particularly discouraged.

	-Neil

    
    My son is just about to turn 1 year old (time flies!) and am unsure how
    to introduce milk into his diet.  He's still breast fed, and I would
    like to continue breast feeding morning and night, but would like to 
    stop pumping at work - IT IS SUCH A DRAG!  He drinks his breast milk
    from a cup at the babysitters, should I have her mix in some real milk
    in increasing amounts over the next few weeks until he is drinking all
    cow's milk or should the cow's milk be fed separately?  I thought we
    would do the mix, but my babysitter claims that she has never heard of
    anyone doing it this way, she usually gives the cow's milk separately
    in increasing amounts.
    
    Wish they came with instruction manuals...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Sue
    

    
    I'd first check at your doctors office for an official opinion.  My
    drs. office has a nurse that handles all breatfeeding questions.... but
    for my experience, I completely breastfed through 8 months and then
    supplemented with formular till 1 year old, while still breastfeeding
    at night and in the morning.  At Andrew's one year check-up, my doctor
    said I could switch from formular to whole milk immediately (and still
    breastfed when and if I still wanted to).  He suggested that for one
    week, that I combine 1/4 whole milk to 3/4 formular for the first day
    and gradually work to 100% wole milk by then end of the week.  Only
    concerns were to watch for an allergic reaction.  I would imagine that
    the same hold true to breastmilk mixed with whole milk.  It seems to
    make an easier transition from a taste that your child is used to to a
    new one.  Also, if there is an allergic reaction, it might be less with
    smaller quantities introduced at first.  Again this is just my opinion
    and based upon my experience just last month (Yes, time DOES fly!). 
    Everything worked out for me, except that Andrew doesn't like cold from
    the fridge milk.  He likes it warmed like the formular and breastmilk,
    so I (sometimes) warm it as so does my day care provider, but I
    imagine, if he was really hungry, he'd drink it, but best of luck and
    check out what your doctor thinks, or the local LaLeche League.
    
    Regards,
    
    

    Sue,
    
    I had nursed my daughter for six months and had to stop for sanity
    reasons!  Anyway, the doctor told me I could put her directly on whole
    milk.  I tried it and although she had a hard time adjusting because it
    wasn't the breast, she did fine.  My sanity came back (my husband was
    able to feed her now too!) and she didn't experience any intollerance
    to the milk.  I highly advise you to talk to your doctor regarding
    mixing the breast milk w/whole milk.  Good luck to you and I'm sure if
    you're son has no allergies to milk, he should be able to do fine
    without mixing to two.  
    
    Barb

    My daughter got pretty constipated when we tried to phase in the
    cow milk too fast. We went back to formula and tried again a few
    days later, taking about a week to make the switch.
    
    Her daycare commented that some kids go the other way, and get
    diarrhea - and some show no reaction at all.
    
    Lucy

When weaning my daughter, I mixed, gradually adding an ounce at a time.  I did
this both when weaning from breast milk to formula and again when going from
formula to whole milk.

My Dr. said to just go cold turkey but I did not think my daughter would 
tolerate that method.  The mixing worked very well for me both times.  I think
it probably took about 2 weeks or so from first introduction until the full
change.

I have spoken to many other mothers that have also used this method successfully,
but all kids are different and tolerate things differently. Like others have
suggested, check with your Pedi.

Barbara

    Hi,
    
    I've been trying to wean Kati (now 2 1/2 months) from the breast to a
    bottle for 6 weeks. She took a bottle (both water and formula) after
    breast feeding during her first month. Since I've been trying to wean
    her she's decided she HATES the bottle.
    
    A friend suggested I find something that "sours" my milk so that Kati
    will want to go to a bottle. I've eaten everything I've felt like since
    starting breastfeeding (spicy, chocolate, an occasional beer, etc.) and
    nothing affected it at all. Any suggestions?
    
    Since they've taken the drug off the market that dries up a mother's
    milk any suggestions on how to help me if I have to go cold turkey to
    get Kati on the bottle?
    
    Thanks,
    Pat

	Pat,

	Emily took the bottle readily at 1 month.  I thought we were in
	for a real easy time.  We didn't try the bottle much again for
	another month.  At 8 weeks, I tried her on the bottle again,  and
	she cried for the first five minutes.  After 5 minutes, I took
	baby and bottle (my husband had been trying first), and after about
	1 minute she settled down.  I gently handed her back to him, and
	he continued with the feeding.  I think I used breast milk first,
	to get her used to the bottle, then switched to formula.  It
	took a week to get her to take the bottle from Daddy and without
	crying.  She was only getting one bottle feeding a day.  My suggestions:

	o Give the baby breastmilk from the bottle
	o Don't give up too early.  As long as Emily wasn't gagging, we held
	  the bottle in her mouth even if she was crying.  She soon figured out
	  that the bottle was food.
	o Take the edge off baby's hunger by nursing for a few minutes before
	  trying a bottle.  Most babies handle change better if they're not
	  starving!
	o Switch to formula after baby adjusts to the bottle.

	Hope some of this helps!

	Karen

I agree with many of the suggestions in the previous note.

Put breastmilk in the bottle; formula tastes *awful* compared to breastmilk!
Have someone else feed your baby from the bottle; babies often won't accept
  a bottle from the woman who usually nurses them.
After she starts using the bottle fairly regularly, then *gradually* start
  adding formula to the breastmilk.  Eventually it will all be formula, and
  you can let your milk dry up (which should also be happening gradually;
  which is good for your comfort).

I would suggest *not* to give her soured milk; do you really want a sick 
child on top of everything else?

Good luck!

      Carol

>   I would suggest *not* to give her soured milk; do you really want a sick 
>   child on top of everything else?

   I can't imagine that was the intent... I had read that question to
   mean that they were looking for a way to make the milk less palatable
   - wasn't there reference to eating spicy foods and such in the same
   note?  
   
   - Tom
   

    I go with breast milk in the bottle, and mixing in formula in creasing
    amounts if expressing milk isn't going to work for you.  If you have
    tasted formula compared to breast milk, I don't blame her a bit for
    turning her nose up at the bottle.  
    
    If you decide not to taper off but to go cold turkey there are a few
    things you can do to ease your way, but expect to be uncomfortable for
    awhile.  Cut down on fluid intake, wear a tight bra, and stay away from
    crying babies for a week.  A newborn cry was enough to cause a let down
    reaction for months after I weaned Carrie at 2 1/2 years.
    
    Sage tea is an old herbal recommendation for drying up breasts.  A
    friend who lost her daughter a month ago said that she felt it really
    did help her dry up.
    
    Meg  

    
    
    Just out of curiosity, when did you start weaning your baby from
    formula/breast milk to cow's milk and how did you go about doing it?
    
    Also, when (and what) did you start giving your baby table food 
    instead of baby food?  I've been noticing Nicholas staring at
    my food and he has not been interested at all in his baby food.
    My instincts tell me he's ready for big people food.  The only
    thing I worry about is, for example, for supper, if I give him
    some mashed potatoes, does that hold him off until the morning?
    He also hasn't been interested in his formula either (interested
    in the morning but not at all at night).  I just want to make sure
    i'm giving him enough to eat.  I'd also be interested in finding
    out what other baby's meal plan is.  He has his dtr's appointment
    at the end of December so i'll be asking the dtr questions then
    but my curiosity has gotten the better of me!
    
    BTW, my son is 9 mos. old.  (and he's BIG)
    
    
    Thanks for any suggestions/comments
    
    Can you tell that i'm a 1st time mom? ;-)
    
    Chris
    

    Chris, i've had two and the second time around I asked exactly
    the same questions I asked the first time....
    
    Regarding the formula to milk conversion -- both of my kids had drunk
    soy formula, so I started out by mixing the formula half-and-half
    with whole milk.  (DON'T give him lowfat milk yet, he's too little.)
    When I saw that they were tolerating that well, I started giving
    a bottle of cow's milk a couple of times a day (usually when I was 
    home so I could see if there were going to be any reactions, like
    gas, hives, diarrahea, etc.).  I waited till they were closer to
    1 before switching them to cow's milk.  They both had been so colicky
    that I took it slow.
    
    Even if your son hasn't any teeth, he can start eating "regular"
    applesauce, well-mashed potatoes, and pieces of canned fruit and
    canned vegetables, like peas and green beans and carrots.  He can
    have finely crumbled hamburger or chicken or pot roast (I held off
    on steaks, chops, etc., till the kids had some more teeth), pasta,
    graham crackers, low-salt snack crackers, yogurt, cottage cheese,
    toast, etc.  You will quickly see what he likes and what he doesn't
    like.  Cut things up pretty fine and see how he does.  Stay with him
    in case he gags or chokes on something.
    
    Bananas and Cheerios were popular "first table foods" in our house.
    My kids also liked Kix and Corn, Rice, and Wheat Chex.
    
    I probably rushed my kids too much, in that once I switched them to
    table foods, I also had them start feeding themselves.  I'd be there
    for the sloppy stuff, like applesauce, yogurt, etc., but they both
    got their pincers grip pretty early, and so I figured they could
    manage bits of food.  Both of them were self-feeding by 15 months,
    and my son in particular did a nice, neat job with spoon/fork by
    the time he was 2. 
    
    Good luck!

    Danielle was switched over at 8 months to whole milk with no allergic
    reactions. She wouldn't drink her formula anymore that's why we
    switched her earlier.
    
    She started on solids at about 4 1/2 months she loved the applesauce
    and green beans! Again with no problems whatsoever. 
    
    Every baby is different, my neice would not accept jar food till around
    6 months.
    
    Sandy

    Please discuss baby foods in topic 67 and toddler foods in topic 209.
    
    L
    co-mod
    

    
    I switched my son to whole milk gradulally starting at 8.5 mos from
    soy. We had no problem inthe transition, and it was okayed by his pedi.
    ($$ was more of a factor than the taste)...
    
    There should be some good notes on toddler foods (when to start, what
    to start) in 209 and 67, as the co-mod said...I remember asking these
    same questions just 6 mos ago, when I thought my son would NEVER eat
    regular food, preferring baby food.  Now he looks at you like you're
    nuts if you even come near him with a jar of baby food.
    
    One thing to remember, once you switch to toddler foods...clean-up time
    increases DRAMATICALLY!!! (floor, face,chair,table, etc etc)
    
    It used to be so easy! (he's 14 mos now and my dustbuster and broom
    have never gotten so much use!, Never mind the # of times the floor
    needs to be washed now...compared to once every 2 weeks before!)
    
    Enjoy, and have patience...
    Chris
    

    
    	Because Spencer is still on soy products we still use soy formula
    for his drink. The main reason for doing this is cost and convienience,
    although a can of formula is rather pricey, when you measure out
    excactly what you need and use it (rather than having it go bad in the
    fridge) it starts being very economical. Also at night, he still
    prefers his drink to be warm and using formula is a lot easier than
    heating up refridgerated milk.
    
    	Eventually, I suppose that the entire family will switch over to
    soy milk. As the new baby is due in a few months, looks like soy
    formula is going to be a staple in our house for a long time (I even
    use it in cooking instead of milk!).
    
    				Wendy

    
    	I've read thru this string of notes, but find it is mostly on 
    people who are trying to wean from Breast to Bottle..  I'm looking for
    imput on weaning from Bottle.
    
    	Michael is 16 months now (oh my god!) and we're thinking of trying
    to wean him from the bottle. I'm not in a major hurry, and actually
    personally, don't think it is a problem as of now..but his pedi did
    mention it at his 12 mos visit (said "in the next few months you might
    want to think about it") and in doing some reading on the damage to
    teeth etc...I'm thinking about doing it...  
    
    	What I'm looking for is:  (1)How old was your child when you weaned
    				     them from their bottles?
    				  (2)Opinions on "how old" they should be..
    				  (3)Methods you used if they werent ready?
    
    He takes a sippy cup fine, and can drink from a straw also, but it just
    seems to me that his bottle is his only "comfort" item he really has,
    and I hate thinking of taking it away from him. To me he is still a
    baby, and he shows no signs of wanting to give it up. With other things
    (binky, babyfood) he has pretty much "shown" me when he was ready. I'm 
    wondering if I should just wait for his "signs" on this one too???
    
    Right now we are pretty much at bottles at waking and bedtime, waking from 
    nap, in the car, and occasionally when upset for some reason or another. 
    He doesn't just walk around the house constantly with one hanging out of 
    his mouth tho.
    
    Any advice/comments/imput out there from you "seasoned" moms...??
    
    Chris
         

    Chris,
    
    My son gave up bottles without a fuss at just about 2 yrs. 
    My daughter is 18 months old now and seems like more of a 
    bottle addict than her brother. Neither kid had a pacifier or
    sucks their thumbs, so I guess there is a strong comfort angle.
    
    With Daniel, we cut back gradually to one or two a day, then
    just stopped one day, without comment, and waited for a protest,
    which never came.
    
    Lucy

    Chris,
    
    Both my kids gave up bottles cold turkey at around 1 year old.
    Eric was weaned at 14 months, Monica was weaned at 11 months.
    Both of them had had no problems, didn't even seem to notice
    the bottles were gone.  I think the earlier you do it, the easier 
    it will be.  My pedi. agrees with me. He thinks all kids should
    be weaned between 12-15 months.   Neither kid had a pacifier
    or sucked their thumbs.
    
    Wendy  

    I'm curious what others parents think of this...
    
    First a little background...
    Good griends of ours have three children (all girls). 
    Two weeks ago they gave birth to the third, at home
    and I videotaped the labor and birth.  They are very
    close, down to earth family. They home school, grow
    their own food and have good morals.
    
    During the labor and delivery process (about 24 hours)
    it became clear that their *3.5 year old* had not been
    weaned yet. The mom had mentioned several time throughout
    her pregnancy that she was trying to wean Serena but by
    the looks of it, she hadn't succeeded. Mother and daughter
    had cut a deal though, the child was allowed to nurse as
    long as she would share with the new baby.
    
    Now...I know these people quite well and nothing they do
    surprizes me or even concerns me but I'm curious what
    others might think of this scenario.
    
    The video tape came out great, by the way, but I'm not
    quitting my day job :^)
    
    Jodi-

    My doctor was still occasionally nursing her 2 1/2 yr old when her
    third child was born. She very quickly weaned her and replaced it with
    other cuddle time.
    

I believe that Elspeth was still nursing occasionally up to around three 
years.  It really isn't a big deal.  (There's quite a good book on the 
subject, _Mothering Your Nursing Toddler_, which is available from 
La Leche League.)

	-Neil

    I've heard of scenarios like this and I've also learned basically that
    different people have different philosophies and nothing will (or
    should) change their own private views.

    It is my personal opinion that breast feeding falls into the categories
    of discussion and not debate. I liken it to the other hot topics in life
    like religion and abortion. You do what you want to do and although I
    may or may not approve, it should not affect your actions.

    That said, I marvel at the stamina of a woman who is still nursing a
    toddler while being pregnant and has plans to continue nursing
    both. Not something I could imagine being able to physically endure.
    (working full time, having a toddler, and being pregnant is enough for
    me, thank you very much).

    				Wendy

    Since many cultures nurse children well into their 4th year, I am not
    surprised.  Carrie and Lolita were potty trained long before they gave 
    up their mommy time on the breast.  It was the way for quiet time in
    the evening to settle in.  
    
    My only problem now is having a seven-year old who wants to know if 
    after being weaned for years if she can share with the new baby and why
    not?  After all they were hers.  
    
    Meg    

    I also see no problem as long as the baby, who must exist on the breast
    milk, gets enough nourishment.  
    
    I know that I could never do this.  I would not be able to handle the
    psychological problems if for some reason I had to cut the older one
    off.  For me personally, and I in no way means to imply that it
    pertains in this particular case, I would worry about the older child
    feeling "pushed out" by the younger if I weren't able to continue.  I
    would want to have the older one well weaned long before number two
    arrived.
    
    But, as I said, this would be my own feelings and this couple, as
    described here, seems to have a completely different approach to life. 
    I think THEY should do what's right for them.
    
    Cheryl

    I wanted to clarify that I personally don't have a problem
    with the way our friends tend to family life, in fact in
    many ways I truly admire their perseverence and guts in the
    face of a very conservative community.  
    
    But when talking to friends about this family, I constantly
    hear disappointment that they are so different. Shock that
    their 3� year old is *still* nursing, sadness that their
    oldest (7.10 yrs) is home schooled and not allowed a great 
    deal of outside socialization.  I don't see their children
    suffering from this way of life, but so many other pass judge-
    ment without really knowing the situation.
    
    It took this family 6 months to name Serena and that alone
    caused some people to think these people were lunatics. They
    aren't crazy at all, they just do things at their pace. 
    Of course, I joked with them that they wouldn't get their birth
    video until the baby was named...that way I figure I have plenty 
    of time to edit and add titles :^) 
    
    Oh, and witnessing a home birth was enough to turn around my
    views on home-birthing and midwifery. It was such a beautiful
    and loving atmosphere. 
    
    Jodi- 

    
    
    	Apparently this family has things worked out well.   The only thing
    I would think twice about is the consistency of teh breast milk.  When
    you donate milk to a milk bank, they want to know if your baby is under
    or over six months.  I guess the breast milk is higher in fat and some
    other things when the baby is younger.  They will only give preemies
    your milk if your baby is under six months; over that amount, I believe
    it goes to babies with allergies and intolerance for milk/soy products.
    
    I wonder what would happen to the breast milk if you were still nursing 
    one child when having another?  My guess is that your body would
    produce the higher fat milk, BUT, I would worry that it wouldn't, and
    that the younger child woudln't be getting enough. 
    
    Other than that, yes, I admire her strength!
    
    	-Justine   

    RE: fat content in breast milk...
    
    Good point.  I wondered if she would experience the horrible
    gorging effects that most women go through after childbirth.
    I thought maybe since she was still nursing, she would escape
    the pain and discomfort of that process...wrong. She filled 
    up just like expected and I'm sure it's chock full of fat. :^)
    
    I will mention it to her, just in case.
    
    Jodi-

    Jodi,
    
    Chances are good that the 3.5 year old wasn't getting much more than 
    comfort off of the breast in the last months before the new arrival.  
    
    Sounds like her new-mother hormones kicked in on schedule, just as if
    whe hadn't been nursing, the way they are supposed to.  
    
    I really wouldn't worry.  It sounds like everything will run smoothly.
    
    Meg

    >Chances are good that the 3.5 year old wasn't getting much more than 
    >comfort off of the breast in the last months before the new arrival.  
    
     You're probably right.
    
            
    >I really wouldn't worry.  It sounds like everything will run smoothly.
    
    I'm not worried.  I'm amazed anyone can and would nurse for more
    than 6 months. I had such a difficult time nursing my first child,
    (constant let-down reflexes, leaking, pain) that I was relieved
    when doctors had me discontinue nursing my second because of breast-
    milk jaundice.
    
    Jodi-
    

    

Hi!
My daughter is 5.3months old. Up until 4 months she used to LOVE drinking
formular(around 32+ onze/day) and she used to CRY when hungry.

Problem is that for the past 1.3 months she did/does not like her formular 
anymore and will turn her face away after a few gulps. I've switched brands
to see but she still does not like the TASTE it seems..... We have been 
singing & cajoling her to drink 16 onze/day and needless to say, she does not 
cry out for formular either.

She started her solids at 5 months and eats 4 times/day consisting of 4 bottles
and 1 solids(cereal & fruits). She is in her 50 percentiles for weight and at
90 percentiles for height now--before, she used to be in 75 percentiles for
both weight and height--so now she is a skinny baby. She can flip over and sit
for a while by herself and knows her mommy so development-wise she is fine.

I worry because her cheeks do not look pudge anymore and because I've heard
that babies need to drink 24onze/day at least until 8 months old. I've talked
to doctors here and they said to just give her more solids but I wonder where
will she get her calcium?

I gave her yogurt yesterday and THAT she wanted more--do you seasoned mothers
think home-made yogurt(made from powdered formular) is an O.K. substitute for
formular? Is there a good formular substitute I could give her?
Is there a good way to make her drink more formular?

Please help! (I somehow feel guilty and angry.)
 
    
--Sernim (the first time mom)(who has just turned downed the Early Retirement
			      Program from Digital)

    Chelsea started on cereral at around 5 months...by six months she was
    definately showing more interest in her solids and had gone from 32-40
    oz of formula to about 24.  By seven months she was refusing her bottle
    and crying for her food...so I had to get creative on ways to get her
    formula intake up...for us that was increasing her solids (cereal).
    She has cereal twice a day and I usually use 4-5 oz of formula for each
    meal....she eats a huge amount of cereal!  I can usually get her to
    drink another 12 oz. between her three bottles a day.  
    
    I bought by "Gerbers" the Banana Juice Medley/Mixed Fruit Juice Medley
    with Lowfat Yogurt...Chelsea loves both of them and they are very high
    in Calcium.  I also give her a daily vitamin supplement.  
    
    Chelsea is 70% in weight and 90% height and looks as healthy as can be.
    
    Hope these suggestions help!
    
    ...Lori

I have been pumping milk at work for my son since September -- he is now
nine months old and I would like to switch him to formula for his daytime
feedings.

Well, his babysitter tried giving him formula (Similac + Iron) today
and he wouldn't touch the stuff.  Does anyone have any suggestions for formulas
that their breastfed babies like, or at least tolerate?  

Or is the method of delivery? My son can drink from  a cup but it requires 
a lot more careful attention on my or the babysitter's part otherwise the cup
ends up on the floor, so I'd rather stick with the bottle for now, but if 
this has worked for others, I'll try it.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Ruth

    Ruth,
    
    FWIW, I use Gerber formula, but I think most common brands are very
    similar.  Gerber is a bit thinner in consistency, from my experience. 
    But I don't think the brand of formula is your problem.  Your little
    one has had great tasting "nectar" for 9 months, and now you want to
    give him/her some foul brew?  (have you smelled it??)
    
    I weaned my kids at about 4 months, so I think it was easier, as the
    formula/milk was their primary source of nutrition.  Have you talked to
    your pedi about introducing whole milk?  My last pedi did this at 9
    months, but my new pedi says wait until 12 months, I think they are
    more cautious about dairy products these days.
    
    If your baby is eating other foods as the primary source of nutrition
    during the day, I would probably use the formula in the cup at
    mealtime.  S/he may get used to the bottle for supplemental feedings
    after a few trys.  Is pumping an option for you?
    
    I'm rambling, but these are just a few thoughts.  Good luck!
    
    Julie

    
    My two breastfed kiddos liked (or at least would accept) Carnation good
    Start, and after tey passed the six month mark, Carnation Followup.  As
    formula goes, the "Followup" formula doesn't taste too bad.
    
    Good Luck!
    Jamd

Ruth, I doubt that it will matter much *which* formula that you use.
Most formulas that I know of taste *awful*.  I suggest that you try
mixing the formula and some leftover breastmilk for a while.  Try starting
with a 1:4 ratio, with the larger portion being breastmilk.  If your baby
will take that, then after a few days use less breastmilk and more formula
until you are eventually using all formula.  

Good luck!

     Carol

	Well, I'm thinking it's about time to wean Emily.  She's
	9.5 months old, and only nurses in the morning.  She gave
	up her evening nursing about 2 months ago (and didn't replace
	it with a bottle).  Once a day may not be much, but she only
	drinks 16-20 ounces a day, so I figure it's about 1/2 of her
	"milk" intake.  

	I'm positive that this'll be harder on me than on Emily - she's
	extremely adaptable.  What I was wondering was if anyone has
	weaned their baby from the breast to a cup ?  Emily's been
	drinking her apple juice from a sippy cup for two weeks, and
	is fine with it (wet, but fine ;-) ).  I'm trying to figure
	out if it's best to just switch over to the cup now (giving up
	one breast feeding, one bottle feeding).  I'd still offer her
	the same amount per day, just perhaps at different times.

	Suggestions ?
	Karen

    I used SMA without Iron as a back up (as little as possible)  Carrie
    seemed to tolerte that OK, but not as well as mama.
    
    Meg

    
    SMA (in the UK) is considered to be the nearest thing to breast milk.
    It is the only formula that Rebecca has ever had. She was once given
    Cow and Gate as the creche had run out of SMA, but she just spat it
    out. 
    
    I'm hoping to move her on to cow's milk once she is one, so I can stop
    breast feeding. A recent study in the British Medical Journal suggested
    that giving breast milk to the over ones may increase the chances of
    heart problems later in life.
    
            Celia 
    
    

Update to .103

We tried a cup but with little success.  Now I mix powdered formula with 
cereal and water and my son gobbles it down.  

He's also eating a wider variety of other foods (chunks of banana, cheese,
crackers, and yogurt) that the pediatrician OKed so there are more ways
to satisfy his hunger than just breastmilk.

Thanks for all the suggestions,

Ruth

    When can infants start switching over from formula to milk.  I know
    that the ages will vary -- but just looking for an idea.  Formula is
    soooo expensive and she drinks so much of it.
    
    
    ps.  I couldn't find another note on this topic, so if there is one out
    there, please point me in that direction.
    
    Robin

    In general, I believe the switch is made around 9-12 months,but it's
    something you should check with your pedi as it may be at a different
    time depending on the child. My pedi told us at the 9 month check-up
    that we could start to switch to whole milk.  I completed the
    transition upon finishing the last can of formula.  Total transition
    time for us was about a week starting with 1 day whole formula, next
    day 1/2 formula 1/2 milk, next day 1/4 formula 3/4 milk, and 4th day
    all milk.   Some people like to take longer for transitioning, but I
    figured if 24 hours between changes was good enough for the hospital,
    then it was good enough for us.  Of course, I also have children that,
    if they are going to have a reaction to something, have it right away
    and there is no mistaking that it is a reaction, so I was fairly
    certain that my kids were handling the transition OK. Plus, I had
    already done 1 transition from Progestimil ($20 per can) to Gerber
    regular baby formula ($7 per can), so I had experience with
    transitioning my kids.
    
    Cathy

My pedi mentioned at the 10-month checkup that I could transition Noelle
to whole milk "any time now".  I think I gave her a couple of ounces of whole
milk the first day, then just switched her right on over.  She did just fine,
though in retrospect that was possibly an extraordinarily rapid change.
Noelle had shown no milk allergies, and though she was on soy formula she
had eaten cheese and yogurt with no problems.

Check with your pedi, and you might want to ask about how quickly to make
the transition.

Another possibility to consider:  I've heard that weaning from bottle to
cup can be easier if you only give the baby milk from a cup.  I'm a little
bit sorry I didn't know that tidbit when I did the switch.  For a while,
Noelle would drink juice readily from a cup, but she always seemed to want
her milk from a bottle.  

-Deb

re .112 - We did our two kids closer to 1 year old, but used the same basic
method - 1/4 milk+3/4 formula for 2 days, 1/2+1/2 for 2 days, 3/4 milk+1/4
formula for 2 days and then 100% milk.

The Drs said that if there was a reaction to milk it would show up right away. 
Plus we had been feeding them milk based products before that switch (cheese,
etc.) so we had no reason to suspect a problem.

Dave

Our doctor said not to start cow's milk until the baby is at least a year old.
Yogurt can be an exception.  

     Carol

    
    Any hints on weaning a toddler from the breast?
    
    Rebecca is now 17 months and is still breast-fed when we are
    together. She takes milk and juice from a sippy cup at the creche and
    when I am away from home for a few hours.
    
    I think she is now breast-feeding more for comfort than anything else
    as she'll snack on me at the week-ends and wants to be nursed whenever she
    is upset about something. I'd like to give up the breast feeding over a 
    number of weeks so it's not too tough on either of us. As she'll take 
    juice in cup when offered by me, I think that stopping nuring during
    the day will be no problem, but she is still nursed to sleep and it's at
    bedtime that we have the real problem. 
    
    She slept through the night from 4 weeks (!!!) until 10 months. Since
    then she has wanted to nurse during the night. I've tried just giving
    water at night, but she cries until she is sick unless she is allowed
    to nurse. As both my partner and myself have demanding jobs, I've
    allowed her to nurse at night if it means she is quiet and we can all
    get some sleep. I guess the night nursing has become a habit now which
    I'd like to break as I'd like my body back!!
    
    Everyone says she'll sleep better once she walks - she is on the verge
    of walking. Is this yet another parent myth? 
    
    Any help/hints will be gratefully received.
    
                 thanks 
    
                      Celia
    

    Celia,
    
    I was never successful in weaning my older daughters completely until
    they were over 2 1/2, so what I have done is probably not going to work
    for you.  
    
    I had cut out all but the last at night and first thing in the morning
    nursing sessions for several months and was working on what was left. 
    In one case, I went away for a weekend and when I came back, that was
    the end of nursing.  Lolita asked once or twice during the next few
    weeks and was fine when I said no.  
    
    Carrie was a little more difficult.  She was and is a very determined
    child.  I wound up buying her off with a tricycle that she dearly
    wanted when she was 2 and 3/4 years old.  (No nursing for two weeks in
    exchange for the trike.)  
    
    Meg

    
    Meg
    
    Thanks for the advice. We have decided to start to drop all daytime
    feeds after our holiday. Letting Rebecca nurse as we take off and land
    in the plane should help her ears pop OK. I'll then get tough (how can
    you get tough with a toddler?!!) on getting her sleep in her cot at
    night rather taking her to our bed when she cries at night. As she
    hates the bars of the cot, I'll try her with a bed on the floor instead.
    I'll then look to dropping the morning and evening feeds as she'll have
    to learn to go to sleep without being nursed.
    
    What is really odd is that she naps fine at creche and falls asleep 
    within 5 mins of her nanny placing her in her cot!! She is a totally
    different person at home.
    
    Guess I'd better start saving for a trike just in case my plan does not
    work :-) 
    
                        thanks again
    
                              Celia

    rec .116
    Our son nursed until he was almost 2.  He slowly weaned himself; we
    didn't push it.  Like your daughter, he seemed to want it more
    for comfort than anything else.
    
    Gosh, that seems so long ago (he's now 7).  How the time flies!
    

    heard something on the radio, it was a talk show on medical issues, but
    this is what was said:
    
    	Thirty minutes perday of "non nutritional" sucking is very
    beneficial to a child, for good "psycological" development.
    
    The "non nutrtitional" part was described as thumbsucking, for older
    children, or suckling on dry breast.
    
    I just relate 'em, I wasn't totally in agreement on the methods
    suggested.  Although I have seen some PBS specials on children with
    severe emotional disturbances, who have been helped by giving them
    comfort time with a baby bottle, which may or may not include a blanket
    to hold onto, and rocking by an adult.  This is supposed to be
    beneficial to a child who may have missed out on this in infancy.
    
    Lyn

    
    
    My son Nicholas will be 2 at the end of this month.  He still takes
    a bottle to bed at nite and for his nap.  He refuses to go to bed
    without it.  I haven't really made much of an effort in trying to
    wean him of his bottle.  Reason being, I just had another baby
    (he's 6 mos. old now) and I felt that the bottle was more of a
    security thing for Nick than anything else.  I felt that the arrival
    of Joshua was a delicate time for Nick and I didn't want to take
    his bottle away from him.  I decided to wait a bit give him a chance
    to have Joshua around and then start to wean him when he was around
    2.  I give him 80% water and 20% juice in his bottle.  One nite
    last week, he was really tired and I brought him up to bed.  I was
    going to try and see if I could put him to bed without his bottle.
    I tucked him in, left his room and he got out of his bed and
    started crying.  He wouldn't stop crying so I gave in and gave him
    his bottle.  As soon as I gave him his bottle he went out like a 
    light instantly.
    
    Nicholas is not too interested in sipper cups (I've tried numerous
    kinds of them too) and wants a bottle all the time but during the
    day, he get a sipper cup.  
    
    Does anyone have any experiences relating to this or help in regards
    to what I can do to rid him of the bottle?
    
    Thanks!
    Chris (I have a feeling this won't be easy!)

    It won't be easy....(but you knew that!).
    
    My oldest had a bottle at night for much the same reasons as yours. 
    New baby, etc.  What we ended up doing was offering him a sippy cup in
    place of the bottle.  It took a full week of him SCREAMING for a bottle
    and us offering the sippy cup in it's place before he got the picture
    that we weren't giving in.  That's the key - you can't give in to him
    and give him the bottle or it just makes things worse for both of you.
    
    With our next two they never were given the option of having a bottle
    in bed so they never missed it.  Live and learn!
    
    

Jonathan was also used to "going to bed" with a bottle of 
milk/formula.

At his 18 month checkup his doctor pointed out that it is not 
good for his teeth but that we could replace the formula/milk with 
water and that would do no harm.

We started out gradually, giving 4 ounces instead of 8 for a 
couple of days, then diluting the formula, until after about a 
week we gave him only water in his bottle.

We did not want to quit with the bottle altogether just overnight
and our approach seems to have worked sofar. No complaints over
the reduced abount or over the contents. Jonathan still wants his
bottle and he does ask for it as we dress him for bed.



/Malin

Just wanted to add to my previous note:
(this may also be related to the sleep-topic)

I've been playing "Imaginary/pretend games" with Jonathan for
quite some time, like
	
	- Have a juice party with 'pretend juice' for
	  all the animals and let them "drink" and "eat".

	- Putting animals and bears to sleep under a blanket.

Jonathan (19 mos) now often declares 'night time' for one of
his bears (or cars), fetches a blanket, spreads it out, 
and tucks in the little creature, pat pat and then goes on to sing 
2-3 words from the good night song that I always sing for him 
at night. 


/Malin

    I would like to wean my daughter from her night time bottle, but my
    husband does not want to, this is the only bottle that Lindsey has now.  
    She is 18 months old and has always had a night time bottle.  I've 
    started to dilute the bottle with a little water in the milk, but my 
    husband will not do this when he puts her to bed. 
    
    How do two parents agree on when to wean.  I say now, Bob says later. 
    Any suggestions on how to agree?  Our doctor says she should have been
    weaned by now. 
    
    Suggestions?  Comments?
    
    Thanks,
    Lisa Cozzens
                               

    
    I am also very interested in comments on how to wean my daughter Kelsey
    from the bottle.  She's 19 months old and loves that bottle.  She wakes
    up wee hours in the am for a bottle.  I give her one which has only water
    in it.  NO GO, she screams her head off to the point I get up and
    add juice to her water.   I was thinking about just
    taking the bottle away from her all together and giving it a few nights
    to see what happens.  I'm not one for letting her cry long and I'm not
    really sure how people go about this.... I know I'm in for alot of
    crying when I stop with the bottle but how long should I let her cry
    for?  Should I just lay down with her and try getting her to go to
    sleep that way (which I have to do now sometimes).  Is there somethting
    else that I can give her other than a sippy cup that will keep her mind
    off the bottle?  
    
    This is going to be hard and I'm sure the whole house is going to be
    lacking sleep.  I'm planning on starting on a Friday night and hope
    by the beginning of the week it'll be better.
    
    Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
    
    thanks
    deb
    

    re: .125  Why does your husband think that she should have the bottle? 
    Off the cuff, I would guess that he sees it as a source of comfort,
    where as perhaps you view it more as a source of nutrition.  If you two
    can come to agreement on why she should/shouldn't have it, then the
    "when" should be easier.  I've always been of the philosophy that it's
    a means of delivering nutrition to the child, and as soon as any other
    means of delivery was available, then the bottle was out.  My first was
    weaned completely at 11 mos, the second at 13 mos.  Jonathan just
    turned 6 mos, and uses a cup with his meals.  None of my kids have ever
    ever taken a bottle to bed with them, so I never got into that issue. 
    Pacifiers were completely different.  They all used one, Chris until he
    was about 3, Jason till he was (I think) almost 4.  The use eventually
    decreased with time.  
    
    A psychologist friend of mine said that in some study (I know - the
    infamous "study"!) she read, that after about 1 year of age, a child
    becomes emotionally attached to a bottle.  Previous to that it's a form
    of nourishment.  Thus trying to wean them later isn't a matter of
    getting them to switch just a food-delivery method, as much as it is
    trying to get them to "give up a friend".  I'd have to agree with this
    based on my kids' actions.  No problems at all getting them to give it
    up at about a year.  Is there perhaps something you can substitute as a 
    comfort object?  Does she use a pacifier at all?  Are you objectional
    to considering that "just for bed"?  This helps eliminate the "they
    need to suck" argument, if they can suck on a pacifier instead.  Of
    course ask me how easy it was to get them off the pacifiers ... GROAN! 
    You may just be postponing the agony, though a 3 or 4 year old may be
    easier to reason with than a 1 1/2-2 year old.
    
    re .-1 You can try to teach her that the bottle is just for drinks, and
    not for hugs, and when she cries, bring in a cup of juice instead of a
    bottle.  Not sure if she'll buy it, but it might be worth a shot.
    
    Good luck!
    

    We have found that if you teach the child a trick - Sleeping in parents
    bed, having a nighttime bottle, or what have you - if you want the
    child to give it up, you DO pay for it. PERIOD. Eg. some days of bad
    sleeping are to be expected if you want to wean the child. See it as
    fate - and hope it's less than two weeks. In our experience 3 to 4
    nights is likely, but we happen to be as stubborn as the kids.
    We have not found them to suffer - at least not as much as we ;-)
    However, we keep explaining the why's and how's of our decisions and
    believe that helps. ( Our youngest is 20 months, and already comes with
    his own (implicit) why's and how's - he's got to with such parents)
    Michel
    

    
    I saw a special on babies the other day, and they showed photographs
    of "bottle mouth" and the decay it causes the teeth, especially from
    those who were given a nighttime bottle or a bottle to take to bed with
    them.  One look at those pictures were enough to make me resolve to be
    very careful about this problem.....

    Re: 128
    
    I think you are right on the money.  We have learned in our house that
    you do pay a price for helping your child through the process of giving
    up something (i.e. bottle, pacifier); and that price usually comes in
    the form of "lack of sleep and commitment to reach the goal!"  The good
    news is that it doesn't last forever, but you can usually expect a
    rough first week or two.
    
    I also agree with Patty that a bottle is a form of giving nutrition and
    shouldn't be viewed as a comfort item.  Unfortunately, when a bottle is
    given in the crib or one offered everytime a child is upset; it is very
    easy to see how the attachment is formed.  We started offering Chelsea
    a sippy cup at 9 months and slowly over a 2 month period weaned her off
    one bottle at-a-time.  Now for those who have children who are already
    18+ months, it's kinda a mute issue to say what was done at 6/9 months
    to help this process (although good information for the next baby!).
    There are some sippy cups with training stages, i.e. nipple, spout, straw;
    which might help your child wean off the bottle.  Also, you can always
    try purchasing some decorative training cups, i.e. Disney, Fruit
    Shaped, that might attract their attention.  I'm sure they will put up
    a fuss...wouldn't you if your best friend was being taken away from
    you?  But just hold your ground and help them get thru it at a pace you
    feel is comfortable for both of you.
    
    We recently weaned Chelsea off her pacifier at 18 months.  She had a
    bad cold, so we felt opportunity was knocking at our door.  Chelsea
    had also showed indications of giving up interest in it, so I don't
    feel we were pushing her.  But just like the bottle, we had to go thru
    2 weeks of sleep deprivation and there were many a nights I was gonna
    just throw a dozen of those pacifiers in the crib and say the heck with
    it.  Now four months later, I'm glad that I was able to outlast my
    daughter's stubborn streak.
    
    My pedi recommended that when giving up the bottle/pacifier, to offer
    extra comfort items.  If your child is attached to a blankie and you
    can get a few more of the same kind, go for it.  This will help add
    some extra security for them when going thru the process of helping
    them wean off the bottle/pacifier.
    
    Good luck!
    
    ..Lori

I have a different approach.  I let the child judge what works best for
the child for comfort.  

Evan wanted the bottle.  He also used cups.  We didn't let him have
the bottle alone in his crib, because that was bad for his teeth.  However,
we did let him use a bottle for as long (age) as he wanted.  He didn't use
it forever, and when he was ready to use only cups then it was no muss, 
no fuss.  No tantrums, no missing sleep, etc.

      Carol

    Something that I've started to do is dilute the milk in her bottle. 
    We are now down to 3 ounces water to 5 ounces of milk.  I'm hoping that
    she eventually won't like the taste and just give it up or that I'll be
    able to just give her water.  
     
    The bottle, I think, is more for comfort right before bed.  She never
    used a pacifier, never wanted it, and I didn't offer it very often.  She 
    does have a favorite bear but not a blanket.  I may try to give her the 
    bottle while holding her and not give it to her while in her crib.  What 
    I do now is give her the bottle, hold her and read a story then when there 
    is a couple ounces left, put her to bed.  This last couple ounces seems to
    satisfy her. 
    
    She will then "read" to her bear or play with him so she never falls
    asleep with the bottle in her mouth.  I do know that the milk left on
    the teeth is bad, that is why I'm trying to do away with the bottle.  
    
    Thanks for sharing your experiences, hopefully another couple weeks I
    can be done with it. 
    
    Lisa  
                                                             

    
    Hi,
    
    Lauren is almost 14 months old now and still drinks primarily from
    a bottle.  She has about 30 oz/day spread out over 4-5 bottles.  I've
    tried to give her a cup but she refuses it.  If I insist, she
    will hold out until 2-3 hours later we are so miserable that I give 
    in.  She does know how to drink from a cup so that is not an issue.
    She gets juice in a cup and will drink 1 oz or so maybe twice a day.
    She has also had milk in a cup but the best she has ever done was
    3 oz because she thought it was fun.  And that was a few weeks ago.
    
    Anyhow, the point of this rambling is that I told my doctor and she
    said that the only way to get the stubborn ones off their bottle and
    using a cup is cold turkey.  She suggests we toss the bottles in the
    trash (so we don't give in, I guess) and start this weekend.  She says
    that Lauren may refuse at first but eventually she will start to
    drink larger amounts once she realizes we are serious about no bottle.
    She says that thirst will drive Lauren to drink from the cup.
    After a couple of days the worst of it should be over although it
    might take a little longer to get her fluid intake back to where it
    should be.
    
    I don't have a problem with the cold turkey approach but I'm wondering
    if Lauren is just to young for this.  It is bound to be a miserable
    weekend because she will have a fit if she doesn't get her bottle.  I
    am going to feel like I'm being cruel.  I wonder if I wait until she
    is 18 months or so then do the cold turkey approach whether it will be
    any easier on her and us.  If it won't be any easier then I'd rather
    get it over with now.  
    
    Does anybody have any opinions on weaning the stubborn ones from
    their bottle by going cold turkey?  Does it work?  At what age 
    should I try this?
    
    Karen

    Karen,
    
    I nurse my children until they are ready to quit and it generally runs
    over two years, but the last few months are "comfort" breasts in the
    evening and in the morning.  
    
    Rather than cold turkey, unless the bottles are driving you nuts, you
    might insist on no bottles unless you are holding her in your lap.  If
    you are already doing this, she may just want more comfort and wind
    down.  Offer her her formula at other times of day in the cup.  She
    will eventually get the idea.
    
    meg

    Karen,
    
    We took Steven off the bottle cold turkey at 14 months.
    In retrospect, I'm glad that we did it when he was that age,
    as opposed to when he was older and started forming strong
    attachments to things.   Both my sister and sister in law's
    sons didn't get off the bottle entirely until they were over
    3 yrs old. 
    
    Personally, I'd prefer toughing it out at 14 months for a week
    or two, to their situation.  
    
    If you don't feel comfortable going cold turkey, maybe you
    could try just a nighttime bottle while she's cuddling with you 
    before bed.
    
    Also, if you do take Lauren off the bottle know, be aware that
    her liquid consumption will decrease.
    
    
    		Good luck!  Linda

	Emily stopped her bottles cold turkey at 13 months, but
	was only getting about 16 oz. a day in 2 bottles.  At first,
	she wouldn't really drink much milk in her sippy, but was getting
	lots of yogurt/cheese, so I didn't worry, I just offered her
	the cup more often.

	Is Lauren eating better now?  30 oz. a day seems like a lot
	at 14 months...

	I'm thinking of stopping the bottle for Andrew soon (he's 10.5 months
	now), because he's becoming attached to it.  He'll finish the bottle,
	then suck on it like a pacifier.  I've been making an extra effort
	to take the bottle as soon as the milk is gone, but he is putting
	up a bit of a fuss.  

	I've been using the sippy cup more often, and he'll drink 2-4 oz 
	at at time, so I may soon just switch over.

	Karen

    
    Thanks so far for the opinions.  I think I might just go for it!
    My husband is in full support of this and if anybody breaks down
    it will be me, not him so I'll make sure he hides the bottles on
    me.
    
    Lauren still doesn't eat all that much but my doctor didn't seem
    concerned when I told her how little she eats.  Recommended daily
    allowance of milk is 24 oz for toddlers and I try to make sure she
    doesn't get more than that.  Actually, the only time she does is
    at daycare and that doesn't happen every day.  However, fluid
    consumption should be 4-6 cups (including milk) daily and the only
    fluid she gets is her milk and a couple ounces of juice.
    
    To get an idea what Lauren eats (quantity)... she probably eats
    about 1/2 of one of those Gerber graduates (not what I feed her but
    I'm trying to paint the picture) at a meal.  Breakfast is the worst.
    She eats maybe 1/4 piece of toast or a handful (mine) of cheerios
    and maybe 6 small chunks of fruit.  But the doctor is not worried..
    
    Karen  

    
    Karen,
    
    Good luck with Lauren!  I'd sway towards just doing it.  From the kids
    that I've seen, after ~14-15 mos, they get emotionally attached to the
    bottle, and then you're talking about a REAL war.  My 3 were all off of
    it by 13 mos ... of course it took YEARS to be rid of their pacifiers. 
    
    What REALLY surprised me, is the amounts of food/liquid that you list
    in your note.  Is that really TRUE?!  For a kid?  I'd guess (I've never
    measured it), that MAYBE Jonathan drinks ~2-3 cups of fluids/day.  He
    certainly doesn't seem to be hurting from it at all.  If I had to give
    him 4-6 cups of anything/day, he wouldn't have any room left for food! 
    Maybe this is part of why Lauren's appetite is smaller than you'd like?
    
    I know if I give Jonathan a cup of milk before dinner, he won't eat ANY
    dinner.  He gets his drink about 1/2 way through his meal, or sooner if
    he fusses about it.  
    
    To eat ... they're at the age when they're too busy with other things
    to think about food much.  In a typical day, Jonathan (16 mos) goes
    something like this;
    
    ~20-30 pieces of cereal for b.fast.  Sometimes dry, sometimes w/ milk,
    and a few ounces of O.J. or milk.
    
    mid-morning snack - crackers or some canned fruit at the daycare
    
    lunch - ~1/3 of a sandwich, with some chips or potato-something, and
    all the veggies he can cram in his little body.  ~1/2c. milk
    
    afternoon snack - ~1/2c. juice, chz n'crackers or fruit or cookie
    
    supper - ~1-2oz meat (1 lunch meat slice is supposed to be ~1 oz),
    potatoes or noodles, and BRING ON THE VEGGIES!!  He can eat 1/2 can of
    vegetables along w/ the rest of his meal.  He might also have a cookie
    or some fruit along with it. 1c. of something (usually apple juice)
    
    late snack - milk, popcorn or cheese n crackers, graham crackers or
    whatever's around.
    
    If you add it all up, he doesn't eat much at all.  But he eats all the
    time, and he certainly doesn't appear to be losing any weight (-:
    
    It'd be curious to know the actual calorie "requirement" for a short
    person (-;

	Sorry, Karen!

	I was thinking formula, not milk (still in infant mode here!).

	Karen

Well, I haven't written my opinion on bottle weaning here for a long time,
so here goes.  I don't believe in taking comfort items from children.
It's not worth the hassle, and I'm not sure what it does to the child.

We let our children decide for themselves when they didn't want to use
the bottle.  When they got to a certain age (whatever age that was) then
we didn't *offer* the bottle, but we let him have it if he asked for it.
Over time, he became less dependent on it.  No muss, no fuss.  

     Carol

    Well I'll add my vote toward the "Go For It" crew.
    
    Chelsea started using her sippy cup around 9 month and of course, more
    went on the floor then in her mouth.  Between 9 months and 11 months
    we weaned out a bottle-at-a-time and replaced it with the sippy cup.
    The last to go was the morning bottle and that was at 11 months.  She
    adjusted just fine and her fluid intake never seem to suffer.  
    
    We also trashed the pacifiers at 18 months and that was just pure 
    luck.  Chelsea got a bad cold and the pedi said go for it and we did.
    There was a two week period after the cold left that we went thru
    major battles, but we stuck to our guns and she did just fine.
    
    I am all for comfort items and Chelsea has plenty.  She adores all
    her animal pals and is a major blankey girl.  We take a buddy and
    blankeys wherever we travel, so they are there if she wants them.
    Our decision (the parents) was that she was ready to give up the
    comforts that were taken via mouth (bottle & pacifier).  For the
    next baby I would stick to the same schedule and probably toss the
    pacifier between 12-15 months.
    
    ...Lori

    
    re: RDA of milk, and fluid intake
    
    I read this in "What to Expect the First Year".  They discuss toddler
    diets and that is what I read.  Of course, they also have
    recommendations for what the remainder of the diet should consist of
    and it is more than I can eat (well, not quite).  
    
    re: comfort items
    
    Lauren has no specific comfort items (other than her bottle and she
    really only wants it when she is hungry or when she sees it).  She
    does love all stuffed animals and any one of her dozen or so serves
    as a comfort item in times is upset.  It sure is hard to hug her when
    she is hugging one of her larger bears though!
    
    I'll be going for it and post the results next week.  Although, she
    has an ear infection right now so I might decide to wait one more week
    if the need for pain killers goes beyond today.  
    
    Karen

    
    Lara is almost 11 months and I'm not looking forward to weaning her
    from the bottle either. She is much more attached to it (as she was
    to the breast) than Anna ever was. I'm starting to slowly wean her
    but I know the morning and bedtime bottles are going to be difficult.
    She can wake up starving anytime from 5:30 to 7:00 am. Anna always
    woke up between 7 and 8 am and didn't necessarily want to eat right
    away. It's so true when they say every kid is different.
    
    I'll be watching this note to see how you do with your cold turkey
    weekend.
    
    Patty

	I've got a kind of funny story about weaning Andrew from the
	breast.

	I hadn't decided to.  He'd weaned himself from every nursing
	except the morning.  When he started his ear infections at
	6 months, he'd wake between 4 and 5 a.m., and I'd bring him
	into my bed and nurse him.

	When his ears healed after about the 4th round of antibiotics,
	he slept late one day, 'til around 7:00.  I was already up,
	showered, and getting breakfast.

	I brought him downstairs with me and sat down to nurse him.

	He looked at me, looked at the breast, looked back up at
	me, and started laughing.  I tried to coax him to nurse, and
	he just laughed, as if to say, "You're kidding, right Mom ?"

	I successfully nursed him in the dark a few times after that,
	but he would *not* nurse in the light of day!

	Karen

    
    I should put in notes more often, cause this last one proved me wrong.
    Lara slept until 7:15 this morning, woke up happy (after the diaper
    change), ate half a piece of toast and drank ~3 ounces of milk from
    a sippy cup...no bottle. We'll see how the rest of the morning/day
    goes at the babysitters.
    
    Patty

    Maybe you should try a cup *without* the sippy lid.  My daughter (5.5
    months old) can't drink from a sippy cup.  She tries to suck from it as
    if it was a nipple.  I took the lid off of the cup and she will drink
    from it with no problem at all!  She does quite well holding it on her
    own.  I'd say holding it on her own she'll spill about 20% of the
    contents.  If I hold it, she will hardly spill anything.
    
    Nancy  

    
    One other point of interest, and hoping that you don't make the same
    mistake I did ...
    
    When Chris was weaned, he went right to a cup, some w/ lids, some
    w/out.  And then a few months later, I tried to get him to drink
    through a straw, and he couldn't do it, and I couldn't figure how to
    teach him to do it!  It took several years before he FINALLY learned
    how to drink from a straw! (of course now he ONLY wants to use a straw,
    but that's another story).  It might not seem like a big deal, but when
    you go to a restaurant or something, they always assume the kid can use
    a straw, and unless you remember a special cup, it can be a real pain.
    
    Jason I plugged into a straw as soon as he stopped his bottle.
    
    With Jonathan I started making the same mistake, as I made with Chris, 
    again, BUT I was able to salvage a few of those muscles.  And if you
    need to "teach" your kid how to drink out of a straw, get a bunch of
    juice boxes.  Stick the straw in the kids' mouth, and squeeze the box a
    little so some juice goes in their mouth.  It doesn't take long for
    them to get the hang of it.  Jonathan can successfully drink from a
    straw, a sippy cup, and reasonably successfully from a can.  I don't
    have the energy for a cup w/ no lid yet (-:  We'll save that for bath
    time, I think .... 
    
    
    

    I know I've said it before in here but my kids became adept at sipping
    from a straw well before they did with a sippy lid. MagMag has a great
    cup system which offers a nipple on a cup, then progressing to a straw
    and or sippy, and then just a training lid. We started using that at 8
    months with both of my sons so they never saw a real bottle again after
    that, and gradually progressed to straw etc. They each stopped using a
    nipple at 12 months, but continued with pacifiers til much later. (I
    guess to satisfy that sucking need....)
    
    Lynn
    

                            
    Am I going to defeat the whole purpose of getting her off the bottle
    if I offer just one bottle a day (the one before bedtime).  Or would
    cold turkey be better for Lauren (14 mo's).  I'm really going to miss
    that night time feeding, especially since she often falls asleep in my
    arms and I love just cuddling with her at that time.
    
    Yesterday I took away her morning bottle and she wasn't pleased.  I
    fed her cereal with milk in a cup and she had a little but she left for
    daycare rather grumpy and had a bottle the second she arrived (she
    saw it and had a fit).  Today we did a little better with breakfast
    and she didn't have a bottle at daycare till 9:30 which is about when
    she normally has her first one.  Hopefully she will only have one 
    more at daycare today and then her night bottle which gets her down
    to three bottles.
    
    Tomorrow we will try the same thing as today, then Saturday, thats it!
    No more daytime bottles.  The only one I'm wishy washy on is that night
    time bottle.  I think she needs it to unwind before bedtime, and I 
    think I'm going to need it because I'm going to be frazzled by the
    end of the day since she will not be happy about giving up bottles.
    
    So, more suggestions please.... should I continue the night time
    bottle? Will doing that drag out the process of dropping all the other
    bottles?  
    
    I really don't mind Lauren having a bottle.  I just don't think she
    should be having 4-5/day!
    
    Karen
    

    When I was getting my middle son off the bottle, I would give him a
    sippy cup right before bed.  We'd sit in the rocker, he's drink from
    the cup sitting up, and then we'd just cuddle together until he got
    sleepy enough to put down.  We still got the cuddle time but not the
    bottle.
    
    Linda

	Kristen was weaned from the night time bottle before all the other
	bottles, even though I wasn't trying to wean her at the time, it
	just happened. (around 10 - 11 months old).

	She wasn't drinking much of the night time bottle with formula in
	it and I started thinking it was a waste to even make up that 
	bottle.  She would fall asleep after 2 sips.  Also I was worried about 
        her teeth and going to sleep with formula still on them.  So I decide to
        only put water in that night time bottle.  She still cuddled and we 
        still read a story and said our prays, but after a week or so, she 
        wasn't drinking from that night time bottle at all, guess she didn't 
        care about water. At this point I stopped offering the night time bottle
        and just gave her the pacifier while we read a story and said our 
        prayers instead of when I put her in the crib.  She seemed to transition
        over to this just fine.  Of course she was only 10 - 11 months old and 
        she was still getting bottles during the day.

	I had heard the warnings that babies start to get attached to the
	bottle after 12months, so between 9 and 12months, during the day we 
        offered the sippy cup with the bottle and then sometimes just the sippy
        cup.  1 week before she turned 1yr old we started only using the 
	sippy cup and she didn't mind at all.

	Okay, so I'm bragging a little and this probably isn't helping you
	at all.... My point is, if you decide to keep the night time bottle,
	you should try only putting water in it.

	Best of luck this weekend!
	Karen T.

Hi Karen!

I was going to respond earlier, but I haven't had the time.  I think
we learn to parent from others and from our own instincts, and I think
you should pay close attention to how *you* feel on the subject.

    
>>    Tomorrow we will try the same thing as today, then Saturday, whats it!
>>  No more daytime bottles.  The only one I'm wishy washy on is that night
>>  time bottle.  I think she needs it to unwind before bedtime, and I 
>>  think I'm going to need it because I'm going to be frazzled by the
>>  end of the day since she will not be happy about giving up bottles.
    

Sounds like you want to continue the night time bottle.  If it helps you to
know what others are doing, I still give Courtney (19 months yesterday, 17 
adjusted for prematurity) a nighttime bottle if we are home enjoying our 
"regular" routine.  It is still important to both of us to enjoy this wind
down, one-on-one time.

I am of the opinion (this developed with child #2) that there are very
few things that my kids can count on since my hubby and I work more
than full time.  Why pull away some thing or activity that truly 
satisfies them?  Just because *books* and well-meaning folks state
that kids should be off the bottle at n months of age?  

When she decides she no longer wants to sit on my lap to wind down (and
that time will come) then the bottle will go -- till then she will get one.

BTW, I think the transition should be slow into anything.... I'm not a 
"cold turkey" proponent for anything when it comes to kids, I think 
that leads to distrust.
  
    Would you drop Lauren off at a new daycare without a transition?  Of
    course not!
    


-beth
    

    When we stopped my son cold turkey it was around 14 months.  He was
    already using a sippy cup and juice container (the ones with the straw)
    fairly regularly at home for juice and water but still drank most of his 
    milk from the bottle.  The pediatrician thought he should be off bottles by
    15 months as he felt it became harder to wean after that age because of
    addiction. He also recommended cold turkey. After obsessing about this
    for awhile we finally decided to stop the bottles and entirely at once.  It
    turned out Alex had a few fussy days but within 3 days he was fine.  He
    does not drink the volume he did with bottle but he seems to drink all he 
    wants.  The first day he didn't drink much at home or at day care but
    then adjusted himself.  One thing that seemed to help him was that we
    started giving him liquids from a regular small plastic glass or cup
    without covers.  These containers look more like the ones my husband
    and I use and he liked this.  I think the novelty of the grown-up 
    container somewhat softened the blow of missing the bottles.  What
    we didn't stop and still haven't stopped at 19 months is the pacifier 
    in bed.  He really gets comfort from that and for now I cannot take
    that away.  
    
    By the way, there are several kids at day care Alex's age so the
    bottle issue was the hot topic. The teachers (who also have kids under
    5) feel the kids who have stopped cold turkey have actually adjusted 
    faster than those who saw the gradual decrease. 
    
    
    Kathy

	Karen,

	If you enjoy it, I don't see why you should stop.

	With Andrew, I don't hold him for any of his bottles.  I'd rather
	let him sleep an extra 15 minutes and let him drink his own
	bottle while I eat breakfast than wake him so that I can hold
	him while he eats.  I know I'm in the minority there, but I
	have to do what works for me.  Therefore, taking away the bottle
	does not take away our time together.  We still cuddle, and I
	always hold him at night and sing a couple songs to him before
	I put him into his crib.

	FWIW, we haven't been going cold-turkey.  He is getting his
	juice/water out of a sippy cup, so I guess we "weaned" him from
	2 bottles a day that way.  He's still taking his formula in
	a bottle, probably for another 2 weeks or so.

	Karen

    We waited to get rid of bottles till after a family vacation when there
    would be 3 other kids around with bottles.   My daughter was around 14
    months when we stopped.  We did stop using the cold turkey method.  She
    fussed for a very short amount of time (a day or so).  After that, it
    wasn't a problem.
    
    She isn't much of a drinker, however.  She did use a pacifier--almost
    to her 4th birthday!  So, she basically got her sucking reflex in
    another way.
    
    My son is about 8 months old, so I'm sure I'll be thinking about this
    in the next six months.
    
    judy

    I'm another believer in "let them give it up when they're ready" (I think
    there was at least one other in here?).  My two kids were at opposite
    extremes on bottles - one gave up the last bottle when he turned 3 years,
    and the other lost interest in bottles at about 10 months.  Neither of
    them ever used a pacifier, though the one that stayed with the bottle
    longer sucked his thumb and carried around his chew blanket most of the
    time until he abruptly stopped at 15 months.  We didn't use any real
    coercion on either one of them to give up the bottle, though we did make
    a deal with the 3-year-old to switch to a sort of thermos thing (which was
    a pain in the neck to clean, so we gave up on it after a couple of weeks,
    with his ready agreement).

    I think that some kids probably need a bit of a nudge to take the final step
    to giving up the bottle entirely, and you get an indication of that from
    them.  I did have a rule that drinking from the bottle was done in a fixed
    location, no wandering around allowed.  When they were small enough, it was
    always while I was holding them (well, I admit, I cheated a few times with
    the second one, propping the bottle for brief periods so that I could deal
    with his older brother's needs...).  And I think David was down to just
    one bottle a day (in bed, first thing when he woke up, straight from the
    fridge) by the time he was about 1.5 or 2 years old.  So I didn't have
    issues with daycare rules, other people's opinions, etc.  One day of
    "cold turkey" effort sounds like the timing is ok.  To me, three days
    of screaming would be an indication that it was too soon, and I'd be
    worried that there would be resultant behavioral problems of some sort
    (plus I would feel like an ogre!).

    I think it's important to think through why you're stopping the bottles -
    is it just because the book says now's the time?  Is it because you hate
    dealing with the bottles, or hate the sight of a child aged xx months
    using one?  Is it because you believe that waiting will make it harder?
    (I don't buy that one, but then I'm a novice with only two kids :).  Is it
    a control issue?  (be real honest with yourself on this one and be careful
    if you think the answer is yes)  Or is it because you are getting signals
    from your child that they are ready to be done with the bottle?

							cheryl

    
    
    I guess I never had the time or forgot to ask when to get rid of the
    bottle with my first son.  But he did still nurse till he was 2 1 at
    night for tops, 5 minutes.  It was funny the same people who were so
    rightous about having to brestfeed were shocked when I let slip at 2
    Andrew still nursed right before bed.  I worked full time and the
    closeness and the time with Andrew never bothered me, but I also didn't
    share it with the world either.  He really liked the bottle at his home
    daycare more as something to hold onto and walk around with, so what I
    did to transition to no bottles, (he also had been drinking since
    pre-12 months with sippy cups too) I bought one of those Ansa (sp??)
    bottles that are shaped just like there regular bottles, but it has a
    sippy cup top.  Got it at Toys R Us and that worked fine.  He 
    (at 3 1/2) is the type of guy that would like a juice cup around 24
    hours a day if I let him.
    
    Kevin on the other hand being child #2, stopped nursing to my sadness
    between 10-11 months.  He wanted his bottle, so what can I do.  I also
    noticed that child #2, I've been lazy at working with the sippy cup
    than I was with Andrew.  Time I guess, but these notes got me thinking
    about working at the cup.  When will I take his bottle away.  I suspect
    that like others, I'll know when it's best for him and me and work the
    transition gradually.  I also have a hard time when people judge when
    it's best for me and my family to do something.  My pedi is great and
    says what's best for the child is different for each family.
    
    
    

    
    re: why do I want Lauren to give up the bottle?
    
    The main reason really is because I think that the amount of milk
    she is getting is interfering with her eating.  Many a time, she just
    picks at a meal, which leads you to think she is not hungry.  Then
    she sucks down an 8 oz bottle immediately after!
    
    If she was having just 1-2 bottles a day, I would probably let her
    decide when to stop. But 4-5 bottles a day is just too much.
    
    Tomorrow, we start.  If she is horrendous by the end of the day, I'll
    let her have a bottle before bedtime.  Otherwise, I will not.  
    
    Details monday...
    
    Karen
    
    

    
    Now to change the subject...how do you know when a baby wants to get
    weaned from breast to bottle.  One note mentioned  that one morning her
    son looked at her when she tried to nurse him and laughed.
    
    What are other signs to look for?  Does the baby turn away, refuse to
    take the breast....but if the baby is hungry enough, she might think
    there is no other alternative.
    
    If the baby is given formula by day when the mom is at work, then how
    do mom and baby deal with weekends?
    
    Does a weaned baby ever want to return to the breast.  How does mom
    handle that?
    
    Just looking down the road.
    
    Nancy

Well in my case, I had decided to wean by 1 year, so I weaned over the 
course of the 12th month, dropping one feeding a week.    

I weaned to whole milk in a cup, not in a bottle.   She had been having
expressed milk in bottles all along at the sitter's, but weaned to cup at 1
year (off of both breast and bottle). 


>     If the baby is given formula by day when the mom is at work, then how
>     do mom and baby deal with weekends?

You're lucky if you can pull this off.   Breastfeeding is so demand/supply,
and it takes the body a while to adjust.   So all week you do not feed during
the day, your body makes less milk.   Saturday he/she nurses say twice during
the "workday" times, but does not get much because you're drier.   But your
body gets the message.  Sunday he/she gets more during the day, and your body
gets the message.  Monday you are at work, child is drinking formula from a
bottle, and you are engorged because your body is reacting to Sat and Sun's
demands.   By Wed, your body gets the point that there is no daytime nursing, 
dries up that extra milk, and then Sat you're repeating...   

So however many times I nursed during the day on weekend, I expressed during 
the day at work (although times were different).    When I dropped one 
expressing during the weekdays and she had one expressed bottle and one whole 
milk in a cup at the sitter's, I had to stick to that on the weekends.   

    
    
    I think I had a brain seizure when I entered my previous reply ....
    Jonathan was weaned off of all EXCEPT for his nighttime bottle, at
    about 13 mos.  It took about a month to get rid of that last one. 
    Honestly, I think it was more ME who wasn't ready to give it up.  
    
    I was starting to wonder if this was a REAL bad idea, and that maybe
    we'd always be "stuck with" a nighttime bottle.  I'd give him his last
    bottle and put him to bed, and he'd usually be out cold w/in seconds,
    if he didn't fall asleep drinking the bottle.  But then he slowly
    weaned himself.  He wouldn't sit still, and didn't want to be
    "reclined" in my arms while I gave it to him.  He was quite content to
    skip it rather than sit through the length of time it took to drink it. 
    Now he's offered a cup of milk before bed, and he's out just as good as
    he was with the bottle.
    
    So ...... I didn't have any trouble with the "no-daytime" bottle, and
    did keep up the nighttime bottle for ~a month after we stopped the day
    bottle.  The nighttime bottle is also a nice way to be sure they're
    getting enough liquids.
    
    Hoping for a quiet w/end for you!
    
    Patty

re: .159 (how can you tell when baby wants to wean from breast to bottle)


I can't answer that one (but I'm replying anyway :-)  Some babies
will refuse the breast once they've had a bottle; other babies
will refuse a bottle if they're anywhere near their moms.  I
had one of those babies who really didn't care where her food
came from as long as she was fed.  Also, some (many?) moms
never wean to a bottle, but wean to a cup instead.

I kept the same nursing schedule during weekends as I
did during weekdays (to avoid the supply/demand problems
discussed in a previous reply.)

    I'm not sure if this helps, but one thing that we did when we were
    trying to wean the kids off their bottle was to keep moving that last
    bottle earlier until it became supper. Once they started on cereal and
    solids for supper, they only looked at the bottle as a means for a
    drink, and I didn't give the bottle til after they had eaten the
    solids.   And then I added breakfast and did the same thing with the
    morning bottle.  This worked well with my kids, and they were off the
    bottle at around 11-12 months.  But I think I was lucky in that neither
    of them looked at the bottle as comfort like so many other babies do. 
    To them, it was a means to get food, and that was it. Plus, Jessica
    absolutely did not want to be held while she was being fed, and she
    never was a very cuddly baby. Brad, on the other hand, loved cuddling,
    but loved food more, so it was pretty easy to move him to solids and
    off the bottle.
    
    Maybe if you try moving the last bottle in earlier so that it isn't
    right before the baby goes to bed it might help, especially if they are
    associating that last bottle with the night-time routine. Remove it
    from the routine, and see what happens. It worked for us.
    
    Cathy

    
    	As for weaning from the breast, both of my kids weaned themselves.
    
    	I had virtually the same schedule for both: nurse a.m, pump 1 or
    	2 times during the day (after a few weeks, it was pretty routinely
    	once a day), nurse as soon as we got home, and nurse before bed.
    
    	My daycare provider gave them expressed milk in all bottles except
    	one, which was formula.  This allowed me to be able to provide the
    	same amount of expressed milk each day (I could not pump enough
    	to cover all bottles).  
    
    	When they started solids, they dropped the nursing before dinner.
    	Then, they dropped one bottle at daycare, so I stopped pumping
    	during the day.  The next to go was before bed, then finally, the
    	morning nursing.
    
    	Throughout this time, I kept up the same schedule on the weekends,
    	even the one bottle of formula during the day (which gave me a
    	little more flexibility).  
    
    	I did wean Emily off the morning nursing, because it seemed like
    	she didn't really care either way.  About a week later, she started
    	sucking her fingers, which lasted nearly a year (mostly when
    	tired).  So, she probably *was* getting some comfort out of it
    	afterall.
    
    	As for how you know - my kids just wouldn't latch on or attempt
    	to nurse at those feedings that they were ready to give up.
    
    	Karen
    

    
    
    	Lauren is off the bottle!  I had anticipated a weekend of misery
    but she didn't even complain.  Her fluid consumption is still down and
    she is getting up earlier but she is eating alot more food which is
    definately a bonus.  Since she is not drinking alot of milk, I've been
    giving her lots of cheese and other calcium rich foods until she 
    starts drinking more.  
    
    	I really can't believe how easy this was!  We were very busy this
    weekend, taking Lauren on lots of errands and to the Discovery Zone so
    that she would be distracted.  She was wiped out with all the activity
    but I think it helped the transition.
    
    	Today at daycare, two other children (both older) still get bottles
    but theirs is a different type of bottle (we used Playtex) so hopefully
    she will not start wanting a bottle there.  
    
    	We have a great sippy cup that is spill proof AND leak proof.
    It is new from Playtex and has this little contraption in the top that
    keeps the liquid in.  Only thing is, to get the fluid out, the child
    has to suck on it.  It took Lauren a while to figure that out but now
    it is her favorite cup (and mine too since she can't make a mess).
    
    	Thanks to everyone for all the encouragement.  
    
    	Karen

I had emergency surgery when my birth son was 5 1/2 months old.  I pumped and
threw out the milk (since it had drugs in it).  When the drugs were out of
my system, I tried for a solid week to get my son back on the breast, but
he just refused to take the breast.  He would turn his head away and would
only take the bottle.  I was certain that if I was just persistant enough
that he would take the breast again, but it didn't work out that way.

     Carol

    I use a combination of formula (12 oz a day, or so), breast milk
    from pumping (6 ounces or so), and nursing.  My body seems to adjust
    pretty well to the weekend switch.  The pumping is what seems to 
    suffer from this process, but it's the reverse of what you might 
    think.  I obviously don't get enough liquids on the weekend and when
    I pump on Monday, I get very little milk.
    
    I nurse a *lot* at night.  
    
    judy
    
    

    I just wanted to reply to this note about teaching a child to drink
    with a straw.  In an earlier reply, someone had mentioned using a
    juice box.  My son is 16 months old and we tried this on Tuesday.
    We gave him a juice box, had him put the straw in his mouth, sqeezed
    the box a little so that some juice went into his mouth, did this a
    couple of times and he quickly figured out how to suck to get the
    juice out!  I was amazed that he learned it so quickly!  Just thought
    I'd let folks know how nicely this worked!!   Lila
    

	I gave Andrew his formula in a sippy cup yesterday.

	He eagerly picked up the cup, took a sip, let it all 
	drip out of his mouth, and just kept staring at the cup
	in disbelief.  (He's only had juice in his cup to date).

	He would *not* swallow the formula.  He tried a few more
	times, perhaps to see if this really was just some cruel
	joke, but each time he just spit the formula out.

	I wish I'd had a video camera!
	
	Karen

    
    I have found with Lara (11 months) that she'll drink juice and milk
    from the sippy cup, but if there is formula or a milk/formulat mixture
    in the cup she'll take one sip and then refuse it. We've got her down
    from 4 bottles a day to 2 or 3. She still has an afternoon and a
    bedtime bottle. In the morning it's either when she first gets up (if
    it's early) but more often than not she has the morning bottle around
    10am (just before nap). For now I'll ride with this and maybe we can
    get her down to a definite 2 a day and then work from there. She's got
    a horrible cold/cough right now so I'm pushing liquids (and therefore
    the bottle) since she's not eating much.
    
    Patty

    Hi,

    We are in the process of getting rid of the bottle for our son 
    Nikhil (11.5 mths).  We started it last weekend (Feb. 4-5).  He
    din't take to the bottle very easily in the beginning.  I tried 
    all kinds of things - different nipples, bottles, different people
    trying to give it to him (I had my parents with me till he was 5
    mths. old and I was on part time till he was 4.5mths), but the 
    thing that finally worked was me coming back to work full time.  
    The first couple days he din't take the bottle till ~4.00pm and he 
    hadn't started solids yet (I had tried but he din't take to it).  
    He was fine from the 3rd day, and in fact soon after that even started 
    taking cereal, etc.  I guess the point I am trying to make is that he 
    can be 'stubborn' and see how far he can get his own way (I guess thats
    how everyone is?).  He din't seem overly attached to the bottle and 
    he had been having juice etc. from the sippy cup & doing pretty well.

    Saturday morning (day 1 without the bottle) he din't even bat an 
    eyelid when I gave him his formula in the sippy cup.  The whole day
    he showed no signs of missing the bottle, even though the bottles were
    very visible.   At night, we decided he hadn't really had as much 
    formula as he normally does.  With the cold and all that he hasn't been
    eating very well either.  And since he din't seem to have any attachment
    to the bottle, we figured we could give him his night time bottle till
    his day time formula / milk consumption came up.  But when I tried giving
    him the bottle, he din't want it - drank very little and stopped.  He 
    slept OK.  The next couple days / nights I din't even bother with the 
    bottle - he was OK.  But tuesday evening, he came home from daycare, had
    a good dinner, drank almost 12 oz. of milk (I was making the switch from
    formula to whole milk).  He seemed to *love* the taste of that and couldn't
    get enough of it.  But that night while putting him down to sleep, he just
    wouldn't go down - till I gave him water in his bottle in the rocking 
    chair.  He slept OK though.  Now last night, more or less a repeat of
    tuesday - ate well (maybe too well), drank well, bath, etc. bottle of 
    water and went to sleep around 8.00pm.  *BUT* from about 12.45 he started 
    crying, twisting around, wouldn't go back to sleep - I gave him water in
    the bottle, he grabbed it but after a couple sips, screamed and pushed it
    away.  So I thought maybe he wanted the bottle but was not happy with its
    contents, so I gave him some formula, drank that and seemed to settle down,
    but again started crying / moaning, ... all with his eyes closed.  Finally
    he slept after I walked him around a  bit...to repeat this whole process
    after ~2 hrs...to repeat yet again after ~2 hrs.  

    He's been fine this morning, just a little tired / sleepy!  I've told 
    the girls at the daycare to keep an eye on him and let me know anything
    unusual so I can decide if I should take him to the dr.  I think his
    tummy just had an overload and we probably din't help it any by giving
    him the formula at night.  I don't think it is anything medical - like
    an ear infection, though I could be wrong 'cos since he hasn't had one
    yet, I don't know how he would behave.  It could be his teeth 'cos in the
    past he has been very miserable during the process, and I did hear him 
    grind his teeth this morning, but there hasn't been any drool the last few
    days which he has always had with previous teething sessions. My husband 
    says Nikhil really wants the bottle (with formula / milk) & to give it to 
    him at bedtime, i.e. part of the bedtime routine like before.

    Any advice from anyone?  Should I just make the appointment with the dr.?
    I apologize for rambling & thanks in advance.

    Sadhana
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Do you think it is possible his stomach is upset from the whole milk?
    When we originally tried to switch my son from formula to milk ~ 12
    months he had an immediate reaction. He was very fussy and his stools
    were also very loose.  We switched back to (soy) formula and the
    fussiness/loose stools stopped.  We reintroduced the whole milk around 
    13 mos but not til around 14 months did he do ok with it. My husband is
    still convinced he doesn't have a great tolerance to whole milk. He is fine
    with yoghurt and cheese but not whole milk.

    You know, you guys are all making me nervous! :-)
    
    Angeline (5 months today! :-) ) comes home, eats her cereal and
    fruit,  plays with Mom about an hour or so, then sacks out for
    the night.  I don't give her a bottle at this time because when
    she started on cereal at suppertime, she would throw everything
    up if I gave her a bottle too.  Too full I guess.  Sometimes
    she'll take about 3 or 4 ounces if she's up for a couple of
    hours afterwards - but that doesn't happen much.
    
    Is this bedtime bottle something up and coming?  Like, if she's
    awake longer at night?  She doesn't wake at all during the night
    (been sleeping 12 hours since the beginning of her 3rd month :-),
    so there's no bottle then either.  Yes, she gets up real hungry!
    
    Is it "ok"  she isn't getting that bottle before bed?
    
    						cj *->

    
       .173  I'd say it's okay if she's happy and content. Why force a
    bottle on her if it makes her vomit? I'd say if she starts sleeping
    less time and gets fussy during the night then give her it before
    she goes to bed, providing it doesn't come back up that is. 
    
       Rosie

    cj,
    
    Katie (8 mos old) rarely gets a bedtime bottle.  She usually
    goes down for the night around 6-6:30pm  which is shortly after
    her dinner time.  
    
    Lately, we've been trying to get her to stay up later, on
    these nights she gets a bed time bottle.  Normally she
    only gets 21 ounces formula per day (that includes formula 
    in her cereal)...so if she's up a few hours after dinner, 
    I'll try to get a few more ounces into her.
    
    		I hope this helps!
    		Linda
    

    
    
    Update to .171
    
    It wasn't the bottle / sippy cup / formula / milk...It was an ear 
    infection!  So we continue without the bottle.
    
    Sadhana

    Aaron (about 7 1/2 months) has been hinting that he's ready to be
    weaned from nursing.  The last 1 1/2 months he's been having formula
    while at daycare (I stopped pumping the end of July), and nursing in
    the morning's and evenings.  The last week or so he's been pulling away
    a lot more while nursing and not nursing very well.  On Friday night he
    simply would not nurse, so I decided to see if he was really hungry
    and made 5 oz of formula.  He took that and would have had more if I
    had made more...  So last Friday was the last time he nursed, he's been
    having formula since.  And mom feels kind of let down now (no pun
    intended)... 
    
    Funny thing is, I started my period on Sunday, I kind of wonder if the
    milk is changed or if there is some difference in breastmilk when a
    woman ovulates or her cycle is resumed?
    
    At least he still needs me to run in as soon as he starts screaming
    because he got his leg caught inbetween the crib slats.  He likes to
    sleep on side with his feet sticking out of the crib, this time he was
    too close and got his leg through and stuck.  Scared me to death when
    he started screaming at 2:30 am, my husband said he's never seen any
    one move that fast before!
    
    And I won't have to worry about him drawing blood while experimenting
    with those two cute little teeth!
    
    sandy