Conference moira::parenting

    Do you have a baby that is Colicky and won't Sleep?  My first child was
    some what colicky and wouldn't sleep. Our Doctor recommended this
    product "SLEEP TIGHT"  and it really works. It attaches to the crib and
    makes the crib vibrate like riding in the car. Also it has a sound box
    that makes a sound like wind or the sound you hear while riding in the
    car.
    
    A good night sleep feels good.......
    
    You may call me or send me mail regarding this Unit if you have any
    questions about it. 
    
    Lynne Strasenburgh
    Wecare::Strasenburgh
    DTN:381-2242

         <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES3:[NOTES$LIBRARY_3OF5]PARENTING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Parenting >-
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Note 80.0                wakes at 3am - ready to get up               No replies
GIDDAY::ROWED                                        44 lines  30-APR-1992 03:09
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    G'day,
    
    My name is Debbie Rowe.  I work in the Telephone Support Centre in
    Sydney, Australia.  My husband is also a DECcie. 
    
    I miss being with my son very much, and am always overjoyed to see him
    at the end of each day.
    
    I have been reading this conference for some time now since having my
    son Alex (8 months) and returning to fulltime work 2 months ago.  Up
    until now I have been happy to browse, but in desperation after my
    husband and I having only VERY little sleep during the past 5 nights, I
    was going to post a note on this very subject.  Lo and behold a base
    note has already been entered.
    
    Here's OUR situation.
    
    
    Alex has slept through the night from 8ish to 6ish since 4 months of
    age.  Now, over the past 5 nights he has been waking at 3.00 (on the
    dot).  He starts by just talking to himself, then moves onto what
    sounds like playing with his toys, this turns to standing up and
    shaking the sides of his cot in anger.  And then this turns into
    screaming...  he is ready to get up....
    
    Advice I have received from experts say that I should try the
    controlled crying technique because he is just waking because he wants
    attention.  I don't believe this is true in this case.  We do not jump
    to him when he wakes during the night and he always gets himself back
    off to sleep in a few minutes - he is just stirring.  
    In this case, when we go to him, he is really distressed and is WIDE
    awake - as if he has had enough sleep and wants to get up now.
    
    What I would like are some suggestions as to WHY he may suddenly be
    waking like this, after a set period of sleep.  I believe that if I can
    work out the reason why, knowing my own son, I can then work on the
    remedy to suit us all, rather than leaving him to cry as suggested by
    the experts.
    
    Thanks guys,
    
    Deb
    

    My 9 month old has been doing something similar for the past week -
    wakes at 4:50 am on the dot and declines any suggestion of laying back
    down to sleep. My dilemma is in the fact that he's in the same room as
    his 3-yr old brother and I really don't want both of them awake at that
    unearthly hour, so I end up bringing the baby in to bed and nurse him,
    after which he goes back to sleep for 1/2 hour or so.
    
    Do you think perhaps he's teething? My son definitely is.  
    
    Perhaps he's changing his sleep habits? My son currently has 3 naps a
    day, and I'm debating getting rid of the 1/2 hour late afternoon nap to
    see if that helps. I've also been putting him to bed a bit later.
    
    Sorry I can't be more helpful - I'm too sleepy from being up so
    early:-)
    

    My 4 month old Lindsay has been waking up for about two weeks now at 
    4:27.....we are tired!  Our doctor had instructed us not to resume
    feedings once she showed she could make it through the night...she 
    also told us to get her down to 4 bottles a day...it doesn't seem like
    enough when she's up early.....last bottle at 6-7:00??  My mother says
    she can't be expected to make it through the night like that.  We can 
    only hold her off so long during the day when she is hungry...all of
    Mass is notified of that!  I think she is teething...lots of drool!!
    She has been a really good sleeper right from the start...i guess we 
    got spoiled!  By the way I have been trying the cereal...she considers
    it torture.
    
    Linda
    

    At 4 months I would agree that she's probably hungry - adding solids
    such as fruit and cereal should help.
    

Re: .3
    
    	Alex is currently having between 2 and 3 hours sleep per day over
    two naps - he really couldn't get by on less.
    
    	We have tried having him in bed with us also, but he won't have a
    bar of it - he's NOT tired!
    
    	BTW, the waking time has changed to 4.15 over the last couple of
    days.  And my husband has been relenting and giving him a bottle so
    that he will happily play in his cot until we are ready to get up.
    
    Deb
    
    P.S.  Welcome any more suggestions...
    

    	A plug for a resource that is continually quoted in this and
    previous notesfiles.

    	We have friends who have (had) a tough sleeping problem with their
    8 month old, they were getting up several times a night to attend to
    the baby and they were at the point of going crazy from lack of sleep.

    	I sent over our copy of the Ferber book (I got it when I was
    pregnant to add to my reference library) and they now want to buy us a
    cruise in thanks. 

    	Apparently they had not been allowing the baby to fall asleep on
    his own and the baby was getting used to using a bottle to fall asleep,
    thus he would wake up in the night, not have his bottle and not be able
    to fall back to sleep. They also would wait until the baby was tired
    (sometimes very late at night) before they would put him to sleep
    because if they didn't he would HOWL.

    	Within one week (and many tears on the mother's part) they now have
    a child who goes to sleep at 8:00 and can (although not always) sleep
    through the night. He also takes regular naps during the day now
    (something that they could never get out of him before).

    	I know it's tough, (we were over there last night and saw the
    parents gripping each other to stop each o
    ther from going up to attend
    to the crying child) but the results make for a happier family all
    around.

    	I was not really a fan of Ferber's but it's tough to refute such
    spectacular results.

    	Something for people who have real tough sleep problems to
    consider.

    	
    				Wendy

    My 13 month old needs to fall asleep with a pacifier still.  I really
    want to take it away because she is waking several times a night
    for it.  I leave it in her crib, but she can't find it at night
    sometimes.  
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Thanks, Kim
    
    

    I think this may have been mentioned somewhere else ... but I will put
    it in here again. My 3 year old daughter still needs her pacifier at
    nights - she goes through the whole day without it. If it falls out of
    her mouth at night she can retrieve it most of the time but sometimes
    it is out of her reach and then she will call out to us - maximum once
    a night. When she was as young as 13 months we did wake up a lot to put
    it back in her mouth. We just got used to it.
    
    Her pedi and the books and articles that I have read suggest NOT to try
    to force the separation from the pacifier since that is the way that
    the child deals with frustration, exhaustion, etc. The child will give
    it up when s/he is ready on her/his own.
    
    Now about the frequent waking up, maybe keep more than one pacifiers in
    her crib so that she can find at least one.
    
    
    Shaila

    My 2.5 year old son also uses a pacifier at night.  He has such a busy
    day, so many new and exciting things happening to him that I feel he
    needs that small comfort-object to relax him.  I tried taking it away
    from him a couple of times, until I asked myself "Why do you want to
    take it away?  What harm is it doing?".  I couldn't answer either of
    those questions, so he gets to keep it.  When he was very young I
    littered his crib with them so he could find them in the middle of the
    night. I figure ANYTHING as uncomplicated as a pacifier that helps a
    child sleep must be OK.  When I get comments from some people about him
    being "too old" for one, I simply reply "We BOTH still need it" ; )
    Sarah

    My oldest had his until he was 4.  We set the expectation regularly
    that we would be big enough to sleep without it when he was 4.  Sure
    enough - he gave it up without a fight, but did have trouble getting to
    sleep the first few nights.  My other son who was little over 2 at the
    time readily gave his up at the same time, but he wasn't quit as
    attached to it!
    
    RE: what harm - my son's teeth were forming a gap when his jaw was
    closed that looked like an oval - no separations between his teeth, but
    the top teeth did not meet the bottom teeth.  That has mostly been
    corrected now (almost 7).
    
    -sandy

    
    
    Re: .7 Wendy's note on the Ferber Book
    
    I did some more reading of the book last night (had just skipped
    through it before) and was very impressed with the chapters on sleep
    associations, ie: what your child associatiates with falling asleep, 
    be it being rocked in a chair, a bottle, a pacifier, etc...  The main
    problem with this is that when they wake up inthe middle of the night
    and the thing they associate with falling asleep, be it you, or a
    bottle, etc is gone, they do not know "how" to put themselves back to
    sleep. They need to be taught (literally) how to put themselves to
    sleep, so they will know how at *all* times of the day/night.  
    
    I plan on starting this technique with Michael very soon. It says its
    can be taught anywhere from 5-6 mos and up.  And if stuck to, it can
    startto work within 3-14 days...
    
    Its very interesting reading even if you don't have a "major" problem
    with your child and their sleep patterns. 
    
    Chris
    
    

    RE: .8
    
    (Hi Kim!)
    
    Can you replace the pacifier (or supplement for awhile til she's ready
    to give it up on her own?) with something more "grown up" and larger
    and easier to find at night.
    
    Our solution was a 6" inch Winnie the Pooh.  Thanks to this notesfile
    (thanks Jodi!) I was able to scare up an alternate (you know, one
    for the wash, one for the kid) and another friend gave me a third.
    
    Well, now, Katina sleeps with all three Poohs and she can always find
    it to comfort herself when she wakes up at night (we hear her calling
    for Pooh!)

    Hindsight is always interesting to say the least..... Ryan had his
    pacifier til he was almost 3; from 9 months on, it stayed in the
    crib/bed and he could go in there and sit with his paci if or when he
    needed it. He definitely needed it to go to sleep but had little
    trouble finding it during the night. As other noters commented, maybe
    once a night he would need our help to find it.
    
    I constantly vacillated over taking it away; that he would be dependent
    or end up going to kindergarden needing it. The other side of me
    argued, however, that especially during the temper tantrums and
    frustrations of the 2's, it was his way of dealing with tough things
    -it helped him calm down to go and suck on his paci for a few minutes.
    He never really became attached to a toy or blanket, just his paci.
    
    A month before he turned 3, he threw it away voluntarily. Asked for it
    briefly that evening, once, and that was it.  Even when Christopher was
    born 6 weeks later and soon took to a pacifier, Ryan didn't regain an
    interest (as I feared he might).  It was quite encouraging to me that
    he gave it up when he was ready. All we did was put limits/boundaries
    around where he could have it (in his room, and had to take it out of
    his mouth for speaking).
    
    Christopher, now 9 months, likes his pacifier to go to sleep but I
    notice that it falls out a few minutes later and he never really goes
    for it again til morning when he wakes up.  By accident, I bought a Nuk
    that glows in the dark -= maybe that would be the answer for the
    constant searching?  I bought it at Ames and it does not have the
    little handle on it.
    
    

    My son Alex is suddenly having a problem going to sleep.  He just
    turned 2 and up until this point has always been great taking a nap
    or going to sleep at nite.  Our usual ritual is to sit and read, have a 
    drink, get his teddy and pillow and go to sleep with the pacifer.  This
    has worked like a dream for about the last year even when he is not 
    feeling well.  All of a sudden on Sunday for his nap he wouldn't go to 
    sleep, he started SCREAMING and CRYING as if in a panic, this went on 
    for about 30 minutes, I finally took him out of the crib, ran an
    errand came back and tried again, same thing, but he eventually did go 
    to sleep.  It has not been getting better, yesterday I was home with him
    during the day and at naptime it went on for 1 hour and 20 minutes
    before I finally picked him up, he went to sleep in my arms immediately 
    and I laid him back down and he was fime.
    
    I peek at him through the keyhole and he is standing at the end of the
    crib screaming with his eyes closed and his head leaning on his arms,
    as if he may fall asleep standing up.  
    
    I imagine this has to do with some kind of separation anxiety but I
    don't know how to help him work through this, letting him cry is okay, 
    but over an hour is just too much on him and me.  He is just beginnig
    to talk but not enough to really try to reason with or for him to
    tell me what is the matter.  
    
    Has anyone else had a similar experience or have any words of wisdom?
    
    
    Mary
    

    Ear infection?  The only way I could tell my elder child had ear
    infections was a temp and/or didn't want to lay down to go to sleep,
    though he'd conk out in a minute on my shoulder.
    

    
    Mary, during the time you are letting him cry (an hour) do you go in 
    and let him know youre still there, and just want him to go to sleep,
    that youre not "leaving" him???  In reading the Ferber book, they say
    to start with 5 mins, then go in, reassure them you are there, stay 2-3
    mins, then leave the room again, then wait 5-10 mins, go back in,
    reassure him, then leave again...  it said that by going in, you are
    letting them know you are not abandoning them, and by only staying a
    couple mins, they finally realise (eventually) that all this crying
    isn't worth just the 2-3 mins you will stay, so they will eventually
    calm down and go to sleep.   ALso, it says not to pick them up out of
    the crib, but you can talk to them a bit.
    
    I can't  say I'm an expert on this, thats for sure, but it was
    interesting reading.   I was all ready to start this the other day with
    Michael, and for the last 2 nights he's has gone down like a charm and
    not even woken up inthe night once.   ????     He must of read my mind.
    
    Good luck,
    Chris
    

    re: .15
    
    Around 2, my daughter started to object to taking naps in the crib so
    what I did was to let her rest on the couch in the living room watching
    a movie she selected.  We do this after lunch and she is used to this
    routine.  It can take from 30 mins until 1 hour before she falls asleep
    but she will 9 times out of 10.  Her nightime routine pretty much
    stayed the same....she needs to wind down 1/2 hr before she goes to
    bed.  Occasionally, we have problems, but not too often.  
    
    Jennie

Sounds like a good possibility for an ear infection to me too.  I'd have him
checked.

I couldn't leave Elise to cry for an hour.  I believe in Ferber's techniques and
we've used them with great success, but if she's crying that long,
something is wrong.  For what you've described, he just started this, and he has
no history of being difficult at bed or nap time, so something is wrong.

If his ears, etc are fine, then I'd look for something else.  Separation anxiety
is a good possibility.  I'd put him down for his nap, and if he cries, go in
and reassure him that he's ok every 5 minutes until he settles down.  If you 
can't do 5 minutes, then do it every 2 minutes or something.  I believe touching
is critical when dealing with insecurity; you don't have to pick him up, but if 
he's standing, hug him. If you have to do this every few minutes for an hour, 
then do it.

I know Ferber says to make the time longer between each visit, but that's when
you're trying to teach a child how to go to sleep.  I think this is not good
when trying to help a kid who's struggling with some other problem, like Alex
seems to be.

    Just a quick update on note 27.15 (Sudden sleep problem).  He does not
    have an ear infection - I think I have become a master at detecting
    them.  He has had no problem so far at the sitters home for naps, he
    was home monday and tuesday because my sitters daughter was sick, went
    back to her on wednesday and hasn't given her any problem going to
    sleep.  I called the doctor and they said this is very normal for a 
    2+ year old and it is his way of trying to get what he wants in
    addition to the separation anxiety.  I tend to agree as he has begun to
    show some very stubbron behavior in other areas also (refusing to put
    on coat, fighting when I try to put him in his carseat, very clingy
    when I take him to the sitters, etc.).
    
    I have tried going in to soothe him after 10 - 15 minutes but it really
    seems to make it worse, he gets even worse when I walk out (I feel like 
    I am teasing him).
    
    I guess what this is all adding up to is the "terrible trying twos". 
    It is especially difficult because he is normally very easy going.
    
    I think I will go back and read some of the toddler topics in V3 that
    deal with this.
    
    Thank you all for your input so far,
    
    Mary
    
    

    How do you keep your kiddo in bed at bedtime ? My three-year old son
    has always gone to bed with a minimum of fuss after his usual bedtime
    routine. Sometimes he gets up and tries to come downstairs, but a word
    from us is enough to get him to put himself back in his bed.
    
    The last four nights, we have had a change in the scenario. After we
    put him to bed, he gets up and wants to come downstairs. We have tried
    all the tricks to make him stay in his bed but to no avail. Its taking us
    about 2 hours to get him down and by that time everyone is annoyed with
    each other. He usually cries himself to sleep, which is something we
    have never had to go through before.
    
    Other than putting him back in a crib or locking his door (neither of
    which I am about to do), I don't know how to keep him in bed. We have
    tried letting him stay up a little longer, eating earlier, an extra
    story, and good old threats. We aren't getting anywhere.
    
    So what's your secret ?

    
    
    We just got over that this past March and April.  It took Andrew two
    full months to get it together and stay in bed.  He used to go to bed
    with no fuss.  Then he started getting up.  But he got up a minimum of
    three times a night (8:30, 12:00 and around 2:30) just enough to make
    us sleep deprived and angry!  He'd ask for a drink of water EVERY time.
    It seemed like a stall tactic to me.  This is something that we never found
    a "trick" for.  It just had to work itself out.  It was a very
    difficult thing to put up with because some nights he'd be up 5 and 6
    times.  Ask my friends, I was not a happy camper.
    
    The only thing we did was put a gate up across his door so that the
    door would close (but we didn't shut it completely) and put the gate
    on the outside of the jamb.  If he opens the door, there is still 
    a barrier that won't let him come down to socialize or watch tv.
    He'd sometimes call us to let him out (which we didn't do) and
    sometimes he'd just have an ugly fit.  We just let him.  Then when
    he calmed down I'd go up and put his covers back on him and that was
    our routine.  I didn't give him any attention while he was having a
    fit only when he was calm enough to handle talking with me.
    
    We still keep the gate across the door just incase he gets any ideas.
    He still gets up once a night and asks for a drink.  I can handle once
    but not 3-4-5 etc. times!
    
    I hope you are able to find the "trick".  I searched desperately for
    one but to no avail.
    
    NF
    
    
    

    We went through this too, when my son was the same age. There
    was no magic answer... We tried the Ferber door-closing technique
    but it made us all miserable and I don't think it helped. He just
    needed a lot of attention at that period (I was pregnant, which
    may have contributed to his insecurity). Now things are relatively
    peaceful but there was a long rough spell. My only suggestion is
    to try to have patience...easier said than done when you are in
    the midst of it, I know.
    
    Lucy

    We found out with Kevin, 5 years old that around that age their
    imaginations are working full time even at nighttime. When he
    settles in for the night he began to thing about monsters and other
    scary things and had trouble distinguishing between reality and
    imagination. I remember checking under his bed for monsters. 
    
    What we  did was put a night light on in his room and left a light 
    on in the bathroom. Also, we would bring one of the dogs to his room 
    to scare away any monsters.  A few times we left one of the dogs in
    his bedroom until he fell asleep. 
    
    We still leave the bathroom light on, because Kevin usually needs
    use it in the middle of the night.
    
    - Pat K.

    We haven't solved the problems, by any stretch of the imagination, but
    here's a few tried and true methods.
    
    We do dinner, bathtime, then about a half hour of quiet time in front
    of the TV, with all the livingroom lights out.  He is in his PJ's and
    usually somekind of afghan or blanket over his lap.  We usually watch
    something with minimal stimulation, news usally maybe some low key
    family program along the lines of Full house.
    
    We tell him 5 minutes before the program is over that it's almost
    bedtime. then when the credits come one, we tell him it's bed time, and
    time to go pee, brush his teeth, get a drink and so on.  One of us
    will walk him to bed, he will give the othe of us a big hug, and we
    turn off his light, leaving the 7watt night light as the only light
    source.  Whichever one of us is doing "good night" duty will rub his
    back for 5 minutes or until he settles down.  When he is quiet we
    simply tell him we'll see him for breakfast in the morning (that's a
    daddy made up phrase, not sure where it came from).
    
    This generally works, and has worked since he's been in his bigboy bed
    at 3 years.  But if he insists on getting up he gets three chances
    then, and we will warn him of what will happen if he gets up again, we
    have installed a hook and eye lock on his door.  I'm not cruel, but did
    this on the insistance of the psycologist at the ADHD clinic.  I felt
    like a real lowlife doing it, but it works, and we seldom have to
    resort to doing this.  We only lock the door until he's alseep. 
    Sometimes we just sort of jiggle the lock to make him think it's locked
    since it makes a very distinctive jingle.  A quick side note, from my
    husband the firefighter... you should shut bedroom doors at night. In
    the event of a fire, it will prevent smoke from getting to you and
    doing harm before you are aware of it.  so WE DO!!
    
    One thing we learned through the psycologist is to give him big-time
    praise in the morning when he has gone right to sleep the night before. 
    I mean the kind of praise that's right up there with going poop in the
    toilet when they're learning that.  I describe it as "puppy
    training-101" kids just seem to respond quicker and much better to
    praise.
    
    Hope our methods work for you.
    Lyn 
                                                      

    A series of replies on asthma (contributing to sleep problems) have
    been moved to note 225, which is dedicated to the topic of asthma.
    
    L
    co-mod
    

    
    Rebecca (16 months) has started to wake in the middle of night and
    letting out a big scream at the top of her lungs.  Scared me this
    morning!  She has just broken two molars, so that could be it.  Also,
    I wonder if she is dreaming?  I don't believe it could be her ears,
    because I know the first sign of an ear infection for her is her
    nose runs.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    
    
    Best bet is to have her checked by a doctor first. If she's physically
    ok, then I'd chalk it up to tooth induced pain or maybe even
    nightmares. 
    
    	By the by, ear infections are not always accompanied by a runny
    nose. My daughter had them from the time she was a year old and her
    nose hardly ran at all (but she would wake up screaming at night).
    
    
    						cheers,
    
    						jim s.

    	Another plug for Ferber.

    	We had somehow (I don't really know how it happened) created a
    monster with regard to sleeping at night. Spencer went from being a
    very good sleeper to crying for about 1/2 hour each night before he
    went to bed, waking up 2 - 3 times a night, screaming and only be
    consoled by a warm bottle and then getting up at 4:30 - 5 each morning.

    	After a few weeks of this, I was ready to just lock him in a closet
    and pull the covers over my head.

    	I read the Ferber book and realized that we actually had three
    problems going on.

    	He was sleeping too much during the day at the sitters. (from 8:30
    to 11:30 and then from 12:30 to 4:00) and so night time became short
    naps between play and eating activities. 

    	He was waking up for the bottles and the bottles were keeping him
    awake (his digestive system should have been quiet but we allowed it to
    keep going all night)

    	He was waking up at 5:00 because his first morning nap was at 8:30
    and so he finished his night sleeping in the morning.

    	So with tremendous resolve, we made the following changes (based
    on the book's recommendations)

    	The morning nap is only for one hour and does not happen until at
    least 9:30.

    	The afternoon nap is for 1 1/2 - 2 hours max.

    	No more night time bottles except the one he gets right before he
    goes to bed. I did have to wean him of this by decreasing the bottle
    amount and frequency for the first two nights.

    	What a difference this schedule made in our lives. By 8:00 this kid
    is really tired and goes to bed with almost no fuss. He's been sleeping
    through the night and getting up at 6:30 (a blessing for us). We have
    had to give him a few bottles but not on a nightly basis and usually
    because he is upset and really needs to calm down, like the night after
    he smashed his tooth and was probably in discomfort. (we have neighbors
    living upstairs and so I hate to let him cry for very long in the
    middle of the night - we're keeping our fingers crossed that we will be
    able to get a house).

    	In any event, sanity has been restored to our house and it is
    amazing what a good night's sleep can do for the parents. ;-)

    	That book will forever be in our household.

    				Wendy

    Help!!!! My husband and I are at wits end with our 3 year old son.
    
    We try and put our son to bed between 7:30-8:00, but he doesn't stay in
    bed, he gets out and either goes in the bathroom and plays with the
    sink, toilet, or sits on the stairs. We have tried locking the
    bathroom door. We have tried locking him in his room (which I feel
    guilty about doing) but all he does is kick at the door and scream and
    holler. (We live in a townhouse and I feel bad that a neighbor might
    hear him and that it might disturb them. We do let him scream for a while. 
    
    It takes about a hour to a hour and half to finally get him to stay in
    his room and fall alseep. (By then we are tried, upset, mad).
    
    He uses all kinds of excuses to get out of his room,(I have to go
    potty,( most of the time he doesn't produce), I have a boo boo and need 
    a band aid.  
    
    I let him read books in bed with a flashlight.
    
    We just don't know what to do.  Any suggestions would be greatly
    appreciated  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lynne
     

    Is he tired at that point?  My daughter, who is 2, sleeps from 9 to 7. 
    Does your son need to sleep from 8 to whatever time in the morning?
    
    I think Ferber could also help you.  He suggests putting a gate in the
    doorway to keep the child in the room.  That way, the child doesn't
    feel so trapped.
    
    I'd definitely put a hook-type lock on the bathroom door (above 
    his reach) to make sure he is safe if he is roaming around.
    
    Do you have a routine for putting him to bed?  I'd suggest getting one
    so he knows the routine, and knows what is next, and will eventually
    follow it.
    
    We start the bedtime routine at 8:00.  (Jammies, teeth brushing, books,
    and talking, lights out with a music tape, and Mom/Dad stay in the room
    for the first song)  It is *very* successful when I do it.  (I'm the
    mean nasty parent who Gina listens to cause she knows it's serious.)   
    My husband is less disciplined and lets her get away with a lot of
    stuff.  He pays for that and rarely gets out of her room by 9:00. 
    
    judy

    
    	I have had the same problem.  My son is 3.5 yrs.  We have just
    moved into a townhouse, also.  Our routine starts around 7:30.  Bath
    time, a few books, and a music tape.  He is great untill the tape ends
    then he is on the stairs yelling to have the tape turned over.
    	I found out a few weeks ago that my son is hyper-reactive to sugar. 
    I have notified his daycare and don't give him any sugars after we get
    home (around 6pm).  We eat dinner and go for a walk.  I found my son's
    reasons for not staying in bed were because he just wasen't tired.  I
    now let him ride his tricycle around the block after dinner and before
    his bath.  This has been just enough to take the edge off.
    
    		Virginia

    Our daughter (3 years of age) does not go to bed before 9:30pm. She is
    just not sleepy enough to go down. So we let her stay up and she spends
    time with us in our family room, dancing to her audio tapes. AFter that
    she falls asleep quite fast. Of course, my husband and I do not get
    time to ourselves but we prefer to spend time with the kiddies over
    fighting to get them to bed and wasting over an hour doing so. But then
    again that's our preference.
    
    Shaila

    My son has a sleep problem and I am hoping to find a possible solution
    through this note.  I am basically at the end of my rope and have just
    about concluded that this will be a long term problem if I don't take
    the appropriate action soon.  Nicholas, 3 1/2 is very afraid of the dark and
    refuses to go to sleep without either my husband or I sleeping with 
    him.  I think we've tried everything in the book at this point.  One of
    us will basically stay with him for about 10 minutes until he gets
    sleepy and then inform him its time for us to go into our own bed. 
    Well, this works for about 5 minutes and then he starts crying again. 
    I can't bear to hear him cry and think about how frightened he is.  He
    thinks a lion is going to get him.  We've told him lions live in the
    jungle and in zoos and will not get into our house.  Every night he
    asks if we've locked the doors and we assure him everything is locked
    up. We keep a light on in his room and a dimmed light on in the
    hallway.  We've even moved his bed, so its not near the door.  I do not
    believe in leaving him to cry/scream; I also don't believe in using
    monster spray, etc.  I would like to be able to help him through this.  
    We also given him various stuffed animals to sleep with and that has not 
    helped.  I even promised to buy him a special toy.  He says early in the 
    evening that he will not be afraid and will sleep by himself, but when 
    the time comes, he can't/won't do it.
    
    Has anyone else ever faced this type of situation and found a solution
    or do I just wait until he turns 18?  Any suggestions will be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Donna
    

    There's a lovely book called Franklin in the Dark - I'll post the
    author tomorrow. It might not solve the problem, but could help....
    

    re .34
    
    My son Stephen used to need me to stay with him until he fell asleep
    and doesn't now, so there is hope!
    
    We make sure he is tired at bedtime, which is aroung 9:00pm.  He would
    ask me to stay with him and I would say ok, but then after a few
    minutes I would say "oh, I need to put the dishes is the dishwasher,
    I'll be right back".  Say it matter-of-factly.  If he cries and
    protests just say "I'll be right back".  Then come back in a few 
    minutes and sit with him.  This way he has some time by himself but
    he knows you are coming right back so he won't be too, scared.
    
    Each night make the time you go out a little bit longer.  Hopefully
    after a while he will be comfortable to fall asleep by himself while
    you're doing your chore.
    
    You could even use the excuse of going to the bathroom, or a
    mundane chore that takes a few minutes.  Also, I always try to make
    him laugh as I'm going out.  Like, "Don't let your toy dog keep me
    awake with his barking!  Keep that dog quiet".
    
    I also have just started having Stephen think about fun things to 
    dream about, like riding his bike through a town made of cheerios,
    or riding on a train through the city of cottoncandy.  You can
    eat the walls and doors!
    
    I also had my share of crying battles 'don't go!' which I didn't think
    would ever end.  You can also try sitting just outside the door and 
    reading a book, so he can still see you.
    
    Good Luck! 
    
    Karin
    

    Hi,
    
    My son, Michael, will be 8 months old on Sunday.  He is still not
    consistently sleeping through the night.  We occasionally get a good
    night where he sleeps from around 8:00 to 4:30 or 5:00.  We give him
    a bottle when he wakes up and most times will get another 1.5 to 2
    hours more sleep.  On a bad night, he'll go in around 8:00 and wake
    up around midnight or 1:00 and then wake up again around 4:30. 
    However, last night it was 2:00 and he slept until 6:00.  We have tried
    everything, patting him on the back and letting him cry.  It seems
    that when he does wake up he is really hungry.  It is easier to give
    him a bottle because he will go right back to sleep in about 15
    minutes.  We've come along was since the hour to 1.5 hours.  
    
    We used the Ferber method about two months ago to break him of being
    rocked to sleep.  That worked great however, it was easier to deal
    with that at 8:00 pm vs. 2:00 am!!! At 2:00 I just want to get back to
    sleep.
    
    Does this sound like anything you've gone through??? Will he start
    sleeping through when he starts to crawl?  Getting more exercise during
    the day.  He usually takes one good nap a day in the morning and maybe
    a short nap in the afternoon.
    
    Any suggestions....
    
    Kelly
    

    Ferber states, "All babies can sleep through by six months of age."
    
    BUT - you didn't say how much your son weighs.  If he is very small for
    his age, maybe he really is hungry. 
    
    Otherwise I would seriously consider "Ferberizing" that child.  I don't
    know how you can continue working with him still not sleeping through. 
    Luckily, my daughter (born at 5 lb. 10 oz. and always petite) slept
    through at 6 months.  I was really at the end of my rope.
    
    Best of luck,
    L
    

    Our son, now nearly 8 months, has only started sleeping through the
    nights.  And that because I finally decided that enough was enough.
    I was tired, my husband was tired and my son was tired.  Didn't seem
    right!  Sean was a hungry baby.  Needed to be fed during the night 
    until he was 7 months old.  Of course, in our case, we took him on
    a trip to the U.S. which might also have affected him (at 5ish months).
    But after we returned it was still another 6 weeks before we decided 
    that it wasn't hunger but habit that was waking him up.
    
    So one night, much to my husbands surprise, when Sean woke up, I just
    called into him.  "No Sean it's not time to wake up yet...".  For the
    first 3 nights he cried for 15 minutes, then went off to sleep again
    without a problem.  
    
    But now a few weeks later, he is teething again and I find myself going 
    into him a couple of times during the night for reassurance and comfort.
    
    Cheers,
    
     Carol
    
    
    

    
    Laura,
    
    My son is around 19 lbs.  He was 18 lbs. 8 oz. at his last drs.
    appointment in early July.  He defintely gets enough food during the
    day. Has three meals a day plus bottle.  One thing, however, is that
    I can't get him to take more than 5 ounces of formula at a time.  I've
    tried six but he usually has had enough at 5.   
    
    If things don't improve soon, we are defintely considering
    "ferberizing" over the Labor day weekend.  
    
    thanks!!
    
    Kelly

    
    I feel for all of you that have problems with their babies sleeping
    through the night....I guess I should count my blessings.
    
    Mitch has been sleeping through the night since he was 7 weeks old.
    
    He's 7 months now, 19 lbs 29 inches, and sleeps about 12-13 hrs.  We 
    hear him awake all the time during the night, but he is playing with 
    his toys.  Once in a while he'll cry....I will go in a peek in and see if 
    he is ok and then I let him work it out and he is usually back to sleep 
    in 5 minutes. 
    
    The only time he does have trouble during the night is when he is sick...
    like a sore throat or stuffy nose.  I'll usually go in and pick him up,
    maybe give him some tylenol and saline drops and offer him something 
    to drink.  So far he hasn't had any ear trouble...But once he starts 
    to feel better, he goes right back to sleeping through the night.
    
    My mother told me that by the time a baby is 3 months, they are
    beginning to be aware of routines.  Never put a baby that old to
    bed, completely a sleep...drowsy, but not out.  They need to learn 
    their bed is a 'happy' place.  Have to say, that has worked for me 
    so far....When I put him to bed, he is tired but not a sleep.  He
    plays for about 15-20 minutes and then is out.  I've never been the 
    type to run in everytime I hear a peep....I usually wait a while
    and see if he works it out himself....and most often he does.
    
    

    re: -1
    
    There was a good point about toys in the crib and about making the
    crib somewhere that the baby wants to be.  We put up an activity
    box at 7 months for Sean.  At first, he would only kick it with his
    feet but in a couple of days he got to playing with it.  Then we also 
    put in books and rattles.  I had never done it before then - not sure 
    why.  Sean will now play in his crib.  Some nights when he wakes up 
    he will play for a few minutes then drop off to sleep again. 
    
    Cheers,
    
     Carol

    I have the same problem with my 3 1/2 year old daughter who is afraid
    of the dark.  I too have to either pretend to sleep at the edge of her
    bed or just sit there until she is completely asleep.  Sometimes I do
    get away with telling her I have a chore to do and tell her I'll be
    right back.  This is becoming a very big problem.  The problem with
    pretending to sleep on her bed is that I usually end up falling asleep
    there!  If I'm not there when she falls asleep she will undoubtably
    wake me up in the middle of the night terrified of the dark.  We let
    her fall asleep with the "big" light on but after she falls asleep my
    husband will turn it back to the "night light".  I just wish he'd let
    her sleep with the light on for a change just so I can get a good
    nights sleep!  Any suggestions would be greatful.  Thanks

    I forgot to mention in my last note that once my son finally falls
    asleep, he will wake up during the night.  If one of us is not still
    with him he will cry and call us to come to him.  
    
    Donna

    As promised :  Franklin in the Dark
                   by Paulette Bourgeois and Brenda Clark
                   Scholastic books
    
    This is an excellent story of a turtle who's afraid of the dark, and so
    he walks around dragging his shell behind him.
    
    

Markus used to be afraid of the dark when he was small.  I found that the
night lights are too low a wattage and just increase his imaginary fears.  I
bought a small table lamp and use 15 or 25 watt bulbs in it.  This is enough
for him to look at books with but not enough to keep him really awake.  It
does light up all those "dark" corners of the room where the monsters hide,
however.

I'll usually let him read until he falls asleep, even though my husband doesn't
encourage this.  It helps keep his imagination from running away with him :-)

By the way, he's 11 !

Cheryl 

    Thank you all for the suggestions.  I will try them and let you know
    how it works out.
    
    Donna

    re: .43
    
    My 3-year old has also been afraid of the dark for some time.  We let
    him keep his lamp on and a night light.  We never turned the light off
    while he was sleeping.  Most children wake up at some point during the
    night and they will become scared again if the light is off.  Perhaps
    you can persuade your husband to keep the light on.  It doesn't do any
    harm to keep the light on, and it will allow you and your daughter to
    get some sleep.  
    
    We also removed some toys in our son's room; they were large and seemed
    scary to him at night; especially if they cast shadows.
    
    We also read Berenstain Bears "Afraid of the Dark", and a Sesame Street
    book (I can't remember the name) about being afraid of the dark.  
    
    
    Good luck!
    
    Sheryl 

    Sheryl,
    
    Thanks.  I have the sesame street book "Baby Fozie is Afraid of the
    Dark" and it's good.  I'll try reading them and the other books you
    suggested.  I just hope something can be done because I'm about ready
    to fall asleep on my keyboard!  It amazes me how someone so cute can
    drive you absolutely crazy!  I do sympathize with her.  I was terrified
    of the dark when I was little.  My parents allowed me to have my light
    on and I got over it.  I'll try to convince my husband to let her keep
    the light on.  She's just a baby for heavens sake!  I don't think my
    husband was ever a child!  Thanks again and I look forward to any other
    suggestions or solutions one might have.

    I worked very hard when Marisa was born to help her develop good sleep
    habits and for the first 21 months of her life sleeping was not an
    issue. Then, everything blew up in April.
    
    I got Pneumonia in April and spent two weeks in bed. In order to spend
    some time with me, Marisa would come upstairs around 7:30 and we would
    lie in bed and read books and watch some TV. Consequently, she would
    fall asleep in our bed. Joe would put her in her crib when he came to
    bed. During those two weeks, Marisa started climbing out of her crib
    in the middle of the night and climbing in bed with us. I knew we were
    in trouble.
    
    Once I started recuperating, I tried to go back to the old bedtime
    routine but nothing worked. Marisa climbed out of the bed, opened the
    door and came downstairs. Our evenings became a series of trips up
    and down the stairs with alot of crying. Finally, we could not stand it
    anymore and we started taking turns lying on the floor with her until
    she went to sleep. Three or four nights a week, Marisa would wake up
    in the middle of the night and climb in bed with us.
    
    Then summer hit and things got even worse. We started traveling all
    over the place and Marisa's sleep patterns got totally out of wack.
    Sometime during the summer, she started sleeping exclusively in
    our room and she wanted to watch TV in order to go to sleep. This
    is such a blur, I don't even know how it started.
    
    About three weeks ago, I started trying to get things back under
    control:
    
    1. We took her to Walmart and she picked out a Seasme Street comforter
       and pillow. We told her she can't sleep in our bed but she can sleep
       on our floor in her "Big Girl" comforter which she now calls
       her bed. So she is out of our bed but she is sleeping on the
       floor.
    
    2. No more TV at night. We start bath time later (8:00 rather than
       7:30). We snuggle down around 8:20, read some books and
       turn out the light. Generally, she is asleep around 8:45.
    
    3. We put a hold on all traveling until we get this sleep
       thing under control.
    
    While that is all fine and good, there are still some problems:
    
    a. She wants nothing to do with her bedroom or crib.
    
    b. Even if we could get her in the room, I can't keep her there. She
       climbs out of her bed, she can open the door, and she can 
       climb over any baby gate. I have tried sitting on the floor outside
       of her room but really it just ends up with everyone crying.
    
    c. She still wants Joe and I to lie down with her at night. 
    
    So what do you think? Is it just a stage? Is she ready for a big girl
    bed? I thought about a sticker poster but I am trying that for brushing
    teeth and hair and I think she is too little to understand. Joe and I
    are taking care of our personal time so it is not really an issue but
    I don't think sleeping on the floor is a good idea. Plus, I would like
    her to learn to put herself to sleep. 
    
    We are expecting again and I have visions of the baby sleeping in the
    crib and Marisa still sleeping on the floor. Any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Donna                                 
    

    
    
    	Did any one see the story on 20/20 last Friday night about
    kids sleeping in there parents bed?
    
    	Donna

    Yes, I saw it.  It was in response to a previous show that highlighted
    the Ferber technique.  The show on Friday night talked about the
    theories of Dr. Sears who advocates a family bed.
    
    What did you want to know about it?
    
    judy

    
    
    	How do you people feel about - feber's technique compaired
    	to the other?

    
    Without getting into a debate on the right technique
    the bottom line is a person needs to learn how to
    go to sleep on their own.   
    
    I know that if the child is in my bed, or they are
    up crying half the night, we do not get any sleep
    at all.  
    
    We did the Ferber method and think it was very worth
    it.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Can someone tell me what the Ferber method is?  I seem to have missed
    that 20/20 and it appears that it works for others.  I'm pretty
    desperate right about now!  Last night was unbelievable!  My daughter
    actually slept through the night but I woke up anyway!  I guess I'm so
    used to it that I wondered what happened to her!  God, I pray I get
    some sleep tonight.

    Dr. Ferber's techniques are well-described in his paperback book,
    Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems.  (hope I got the title right.)
    
    He has detailed instructions telling you how to support your baby (6
    months or older) in sleeping through the night, and how to teach your
    toddler to stay in bed or at least in his room.
    
    The book summarizes his extensive research into sleep problems.  He
    writes, "Most babies can sleep through the night by 3 months old and
    all babies can sleep through the night by six months old."
    [paraphrased]
    
    Several pointers on helping the child learn to sleep through:
    
    *  Don't teach the child to fall asleep by depending on you to rock
    her, nurse her, or stay in the room.  Don't give the child a pacifier
    in bed.  Don't give the baby anything to help in fall asleep unless you
    want to get up several times a night to replicate this condition.
    
    *  Don't jump up at every cry.  Humans normally awaken several times a
    night.  They learn to go back to sleep quickly and without assistance.
    
    Dr. Ferber details how to either let the baby go "cold turkey" and how
    to move to better sleep habits over a period of several days.
    
    Hope this is the info you need.
    
    L
    

    There are also discussions about Dr. Ferber and his techniques
    in the previous volumes of PARENTING.  These discussions may be
    useful to you also.
    
    Good luck!
    Linda
    
    

     re.56
    
    Good Summary Laura!
    
    Chris
    
    

    Thanks everyone, I'll try anything.  Already I've broken all of Ferbers
    rules and I can see I will have a "fun" time correcting my mistakes!  I
    have extracted these notes to take home and show my husband.  I will be
    making a trip to the library tonight too!  I hope everyone has a
    wonderful and safe Labor Day weekend!

re: .59

>    I hope everyone has a wonderful and safe Labor Day weekend!

If you choose to implement a Ferber type technique, a holiday weekend is a 
good time to do it.  The first few nights, nobody gets much sleep.

In our case, the first night, Lara screamed for about 2 hours, then fell 
asleep.  The second night, she screamed for about 1 hour, then fell asleep.  
The third night, she screamed for about 30 minutes, then fell asleep (then the 
^&&%$^ phone rang and woke her up, and she screamed for another hour, but 
that's another story).

Clay

    
    
    Well, so much for the quiet period we had in May!  Andrew's (3) up to his
    old tricks again.  He's getting up EVERY HOUR!  This has been going on
    the past two plus weeks.  We're very sleep deprived and very unhappy.
    I can't use gates, because no matter how I place them, he can over come
    them.  I can't lock him in his room because he makes such a ruckus
    (stomping, slamming, screaming pounding) that he'll wake his brother up 
    (who sleeps the next room over).  We have to put him down stairs when
    he wakes up in  a foul mood because he's like a volcano.  So to
    contain him, we batten the hatches (talking is useless he's too
    self-involved with his tantrum, holding doesn't work because it's just
    the audience he requires to go on and on) we have a small room down
    stairs that we put a child-proof handle on the knob, turn on the light
    for  him and close the door.
    So he's stuck in this room until he contains himself.  He usually has
    at least one blow-out tantrum (about 1 hour long) after midnight. 
    Sometimes they seem to stem from a dream or nightmare, other times, he 
    wakes up and is so tired and mean, (mean because he's so tired) that 
    he's impossible to deal with.  Sooooo, once again we're searching for
    ideas to help get him to "sleep" at night.  I'm going to check out
    Ferber tomorrow.  
    
    I like two ideas I saw here, one is limiting sugar intake before bed,
    and the other is giving them just enough physical activity to poop him
    out.  
    
    The problem is we're renting a house for vacation and being in a new
    place is going to disrupt his sleep the first few night even more than
    usual and second, new or "different" stimulation during the day seems
    to breed night sleep problems for him.  
    
    Looks like vacation will mean more sleepless nights!
    
    Ug!
             

    Clay,
    
    So I guess the Ferber technique is to let them cry it out.  I saw that
    particular show on 20/20.  You're right about a holiday being the best
    time.  I actually did let her cry last night and after about an hour of
    crying and listening to her Roger Rabbit tape, she fell asleep.  I was
    exhausted from work and was hoping she would konk out.  I hope I have
    just as much luck tonight.  If I hear "I'm scared" one more time I
    think I'll cry myself!!!  Thanks for responding Clay, it helps to know
    I'm not alone in my sleepless misery!
    
    Barb

re .63

>    Clay,
>    
>    So I guess the Ferber technique is to let them cry it out.  I saw that

Either my understanding of Ferber is wrong (I haven't read the book -- we 
were a family-bed family) or Clay's comments in .61 allowed for some
misunderstanding.  I believe that Ferber is *not* about "letting them
cry it out", if by that you mean closing the door and putting in your ear
plugs.  Rather, I understand it to be about providing regular reassurance
that you are still there and haven't abandoned them, while insisting that
this is the time to be in bed (alone) and go to sleep (by themselves), and
nothing else.

	-Neil

re: .63, .64

Please don't accept my characterization of the Ferber technique.  I have never 
read the book; we generally followed our own view of how to do it, with input 
from our pediatrician.

When the Ferber technique was described in here, it sounded quite similar to 
what we did, hence the reference.  Perhaps the pedi had read it, and his 
advice reflected what Ferber reccommended, but once again, I've never read the 
book.  If you really want to know the Ferber technique, I suggest you read the 
book yourself, or at least talk to someone who has.

Clay 

    We "Ferberized" our son about 2 months (about 7 months old, at the time) 
    ago, with great success.  We're real advocates.  It is difficult to hear 
    your baby cry, but when youbelieve that it's the right thing to do, and 
    then you see such amazing results, it's difficult to refute.
    
    But, recently, we've had some regression, and I wanted to get some
    opinions.  
    
    We went on a 2 week vacation, during which the three of us were together 
    constantly, which was a treat both for us and the baby.  When we got
    back, we anticipated a reaction when we dropped him off at daycare, but
    he was as happy as always.  What we have noticed is that he now resists
    going to sleep.
    
    Our theory is that, since we're now not spending as much time with him,
    it's a separation anxiety of sorts.  Another hint that it may be this
    is that he cries when you leave him to go to sleep, then we let him go
    for a few minutes.  After we go in and reassure him, he still screams
    when we leave, but then settles down within a minute or two.
    
    Any other opinions?
    
    Leslie

    I am a strong "rejecter" of the Ferber method. I lean more towards the
    Sears method. This could be since I was born and raised in India where
    sleeping with your parents is the norm especially in a place like
    Bombay where it is awfully hard to find a "flat" with more than 2
    bedrooms (or you must be very wealthy). My family was/is fairly well
    off and we own a 2 bedroom flat. But since we were a joint family -
    grandparents (Ma'a parents), grand-aunt, my parents, my brother and me
    - all 7 of us. So we HAD to share bedrooms. My brother and Igot one
    bedroom after my parents renovated the flat to allow for more space for
    us. I think we turned out fine .
    
    I believe that if a child wants to be with parents while sleeping then
    so be it. The child will eventually want his/her privacy and then we as
    parents are going to miss the "closeness". Our daughter Avanti (3 years
    old) likes to fall asleep in our bed and then we carry her off to her
    bed and she stays there all night (most nights). She wants Mommy to lie
    next to her and we talk about the day, her school until she falls
    asleep. She wants me there until she is asleep. This means that I must
    dedicate a chunk of time for her each night but I feel it is worth it
    since I rarely get much time with her.
    
    Some nights she will come into our bed at 4am and we let her. Sometimes
    our 4 month old Neel also wants to snuggle up to Mommy and we are a
    crowded but happy 4-some. (Time to get a king size bed :-)).
    
    I could not and never will be able to hear a child cry because he/she
    is left alone to put him/herself to sleep. I find that awfully cruel
    (just my feeling - not a judgement on other parents).
    
    This does not mean that Avanti gets away with everything. We do have
    rules but we are lenient about letting Avanti sleep with us.
    
    Shaila
                  

    I'm amazed that you have more than one child.  When did you ever find
    time to create a family?  I understand that in India many
    people/families live together in very small quarters.  More power to
    you if that's what you like.
    
    I think I'll just get the Ferber technique book and read it.  There is
    nothing wrong with letting a child cry it's just hard to handle at
    3:00am!  

    I find Shaila's description of the "family bed" very appealing,
    and I have read Sears' book and another one called "The Family
    Bed" as well. We allowed our older child to sleep on our floor
    when Ferberizing him just plain didn't work (when he was 3 years
    old and wouldn't stay in bed). He still sleeps next to our bed 
    many, many nights from about 3 a.m. til morning. He is now 4.5.
    
    Our daughter is 13 months old and we Ferberized her at six months,
    very successfully. She is a better sleeper and a more independent
    kid all-around, and I have no qualms about having Ferberized her,
    since it seemed like just a reinforcement of her own preferences.
    
    My feeling is that this is a cultural thing. In the U.S. I think
    it is safe to say that most couples want "their space" from their
    kids after bedtime, and expect to have some adult-only time and
    space. In our case, we were willing to compromise with our son
    when we saw how miserable he was at sleeping alone all night.
    But if our daughter is happy alone in her crib we are very happy
    to have her there and not in our room. I think individuality and
    independence are so valued in this culture that it's hard to relax 
    the tradition of separate sleeping quarters for most of us.
    
    Lucy

    
    I found out from another mother that our situation is considered an
    "extended family bed". Spencer's crib (actually it's a port-a-crib) is
    still in our bedroom and I have found no problem with this situation.
    For the most part he is a good sleeper and (usually) sleeps straight
    through the night. When he wakes up, for whatever reason, it's usually
    because he is in some sort of distress and I like being close to him.
    
    One reason for this setup is space, we live in a small two bedroom one
    floor condo and hence have no "official" nursery. We have talked about
    moving and when we do, I imagine that Spencer will probably go into his
    own room. If we do not move by the time the new baby is here, it looks
    like all of us will be sleeping in one room.
    
    Although we had Spencer in the bed with us when he was an infant, I
    found that *I* did not sleep as well and so that's when we moved him
    out to his crib.
    
    				Wendy

    re: surprised that I have more than one child 
    
    My daughter does not sleep in our room ALL NIGHT so we do get our
    privacy and our "space".
    
    It is amazing how parents in India do it - I have one younger brother.
    I guess you can say they are creative :-) when it comes to intimacy.
    
    Our son sleeps in our room but in his crib. I had Avanti in our room in
    her crib until she was 6 months old and then we moved here into her
    room but she was in a spica (body) cast from 7 months of age to 1 year
    which lead her to sleep with us (actually we in her room). We intend to
    have Neel in our room until he is 6 months old. THen he gets to share a
    bedroom with Avanti until they are older.
    
    Someone mentioned the need for folks in the US to want their own
    "space". This is not quite the case in India. People are more
    family oriented (not that folks in the US are not) and do not care much
    for the "space" thing.
    
    I guess it is a difference in culture - not just Indians but most of
    the cultures of the Far East like Japan, etc.
    
    Shaila

re creativity...  We had no particular difficulty with using the living 
room or family room for love-making while Elspeth was sleeping upstairs
in our bed.  Indeed, even after she was spending most of the night in her
own room, we still frequently preferred the family room downstairs over 
our bedroom across the hall, since we then didn't need to worry about the 
noise levels. :-)

	-Neil

    Yeah, put the kids to bed early, spread out a blanket beside the
    fireplace, put on some romantic music (soft, so you can hear if
    the kids wake up) . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    This was my note in parenting_v3 more than a year ago.  Everything
    is still true:
    
    
           <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]PARENTING_V3.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Parenting >-
================================================================================
Note 135.156            sleep problems in infant/toddler              156 of 238
GANTRY::CHEPURI "Pam Chepuri"                        51 lines  20-JUN-1991 15:34
                   -< some kids do not like sleeping alone >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: .153
    
    >> You haven't created a monster, you've just got one of what I'm
    >> convinced is a large number of kids who don't like to sleep alone.
    
    So true ... 
    Here is my experience ...
    
    After two years and many many sleepless nights of fighting (coaxing, 
    threatening, ignoring, explaining, ferberizing etc. etc.) with Rasika 
    to have her sleep in her room, my husband and I told her that it was
    O.K. for her to come to our bed when she woke up in the middle of the
    night.
    
    Her sleep problems ended immediately. Before, she never wanted to go to
    bed and bedtime was a struggle every single day.  Now she goes to bed
    IN HER ROOM happily (unless we have company!).  When she woke up in
    the middle of the night, she used to cry rather loudly.  Now she just
    walks over to our bed, jumps in and goes right back to sleep. This is
    usually around 3 am.  She used to be up at 6:00 am. Now she can sleep
    until 8 am.  Before, she would wake up at the slightest noise.   We
    would tip-toe and whisper after she went to bed.  Now, she sleeps 
    soundly in our bed while we get dressed (hair dryer etc) around her in
    the morning.  Many nights, she sleeps soundly in her own bed all night. 
    What a change ... What a relief.
    
    By the way, Rasika is now 3 and we started this when she was 2. The
    funny thing is that we made all these changes about 2 weeks before  I
    was going to have a second child.  I have heard about children's
    sleeping habits deteriorating with the birth of a sibling.  We found
    that exactly the opposite happened.  All this has convinced me about
    what Bonnie said - some kids just do not like to sleep alone".
    
    The ironic part is that the family bed (until the child is about  6 or
    so) is a rather routine thing in many families in India (where my
    husband and I grew up). But, I had resisted the idea, based on what I
    was hearing from friends here and books that were anti-family bed.  I
    was trying to do the "When in Rome, do what the Romans do" philosophy. 
    Since then, I have found other documentation  that talks about the
    merits of the family bed.  
    
    Anyway, we have a system now that works for us and with which I am
    philosophically comfortable.
    
    By the way, the baby (Bhavika, now almost one) has always slept by
    herself in her crib in her room,  quite soundly thro' the night since
    she was 3 months old.  I did not do anything different with her that I
    did not do with Rasika.  I think they are just different.
    
    						Pam	
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    Sept 1992 UPDATE: 
    
    My 4-yr old still comes into our bed in the wee hours of the
    morning.  When she started pre-school at age 3 last Sep, her teacher
    commented about how well-adjusted and independent Rasika was.  She was 
    surprised when I told her that Rasika had always had child-care at
    home, this was her first out-of-the-home place.  I find it hard to believe
    theories about the connection between dependent kids and family beds.
    
    My 2-yr old continues to sleep thro' the night in the crib.
    
    Pam

    What I'm getting from all of this "pro family bed" stuff is that I'm
    supposed to give in, let my daughter have her way and have her take
    away from me the time I deserve.  I agree that all children are
    different because my son is wonderful and always sleeps thru the night. 
    I don't however, believe in being controlled by my children.  If we let
    them do whatever they want at an early age, then they will learn to take
    advantage of you when they get older.  I'm sure there is a solution out
    there somewhere for me.  She did sleep through the night!  I gave her a 
    happy face sticker and she was really thrilled.  I will try the reward 
    method and read some more books.  I do appreciate all of your responses
    to my note, even the ones I don't agree with.  Have a good day folks.
    more books!

    
    
    re -.1
    
    	That's not what I'm getting from all of this "pro family bed"
    stuff, but then to each his own.
    
    				Wendy

    re:-2
    
    I don't think that anyone should force-fed about any method. I do not
    believe in any method that comes out of theory but WHAT works for you.
    The family bed way is our method - I do want my time but I give in
    knowing that I get my time to myself when I am at work. I spend less
    time with my kids than I spend at work so I try to maximize my time
    with my kids at home even if I do not have time for myself at home. I
    try to do things I want to do for myself - exercise (mostly walk), run
    errands, etc during lunch time. If I want to read (magazines - I have
    not read a book in a while) I take a magazine to the bathroom (Sandeep
    and I call it our "library").
    
    I guess it all boils down to our preferences. I try to maintain the
    middle road avoiding extremes.
    
    Shaila
    
    P.S. Last nite or rather early am Sandeep woke up at 4am to catch a
    flight for a business trip , Neel woke up for his bottle. He gulped his
    bottle in less than 10 minutes but he was not sleepy. So I let him stay
    in our bed and he simply wanted to coo and gurgle and smile. This went
    on until 5:30. I lost some sleep but I can handle this - crying is what
    bothers me. This hasnothing to do with sleep techniques but just a
    thought while writing this note.
    

    .78 should read...
    
    "should not *feel* force-fed....."

    A lot of it depends on the personality of the particular child
    as well as the habits and needs of other members of the family. 
    Our middle child is much more sociable than the rest of us.  He
    needs people around, he needs interaction.  Any time alone is
    anathema to him.  He's much more easily frightened, especially at
    night, and always was, even from a very early age. 
    
    He didn't always spend the night in our room, but when we had got
    a terrified, lonely three-year-old who thought that when we were
    leaving him alone we were rejecting him, who was in a panic
    because of a thunderstorm coming up, I got a lot less doctrinaire
    about making him stay behind his closed door.  
    
    And we didn't have a problem with it.  He only came in when he
    really needed it, and he hasn't needed it for a couple of years
    now (he's 8).   It was just one of those things we had to change
    to cope with the kid's personality, the same as dealing with the
    fact that David is left-handed and doesn't like meat at all.  
    
    --bonnie

I really don't think anyone in this topic -- Ferber advocates or family bed 
advocates -- is trying to tell others what they "should" do with their 
children.  I think that generally we are saying, "This is what worked and 
felt right for us; you might find it worth considering."

While I speak for myself below, I suspect that I am also speaking for other
noters who have been recounting their positive family bed experiences here
(but they're welcome to let me know if I'm wrong)...

I believe that there are parents who feel uncomfortable about the process
of training their children to sleep alone.  I would hope to reassure them 
that they won't harm their children or their family dynamics by allowing 
their children to sleep with them.

Many other parents really haven't thought much about it.  After all, in this
society the question that is generally asked isn't whether babies should be 
trained to sleep alone, but rather what is the best way to accomplish it.
I would like to remind them that there are other alternatives.

And there are many parents who have thought about it; who have decided that
they really do want to train there children to sleep alone; and who want
advice on the best techniques.  For them, I have no advice (but I their are
plenty of others here who do), but I certainly don't believe that they are
"wrong", or that they "should" do things my way!

	-Neil

    re : last 2
    
    I agree with both the previous replies: well said.
    
    Avanti was sleeping alone in her room until she turned 3 and Neel was
    born. She saw that Neel was in our room and my time with her
    (exclusively) decreased. That made her feel neglected and she started
    wanting to sleep in our bed all night everyday. I sensed this ( good
    for me , huh? :-)) and started spending time with her when I dropped
    her off at daycare and also restarted our nitely ritual of spending
    about 1/2 hour in bed talking and watching TV. A few days of this and
    she is back to being a happy child and sleepingin her room thru the
    night. She is also the type that wants people around her - being alone
    - even playing alone is not her style. We shall see how Neel turns out.
    He is showing signs of being different from Avanti - he is almost 4
    months old and likes to be left alone to play with his gym with his big
    bird,...
    
    Also, we did not give too much thought into whether we want our kids to
    sleep alone or not. We just go with the flow and see what optimally
    works out for all concerned.
    
    Shaila

I doubt if my husband (German) would ever have considered having the children
in our bed, even if I had considered it.  The only time we did was when Dirk
was sick and I was so exhausted I couldn't get up any more.  But usually I 
just went downstairs and slept on the couch or the floor near their bed.

I knew nothing about Ferber or any of the other techniques.  By 2-3 months
both boys slept through the night and by the time they were a year old normally
slept until seven or eight in the morning.  They have always had, in
accordance with European custom, strict, regular bedtimes and still do at
age almost 12 and 14 (bedtime is now 9:00).

As sleep problems came up, we learned to deal with them and did what worked 
for us.  Dirk needed to have the door left open when Mark was born so he didn't
feel so removed from the family.  Markus needs a very bright night light to
chase away the shadows.  I also sometimes let Mark read a little later than
9:00 (much to his father's dismay) because his over active imagination might
create monsters.

We also had our "family bed" when the boys were younger (oh how sad to see those
times gone by !:-)  It was on Sunday morning when we would all get in our big
bed and have tickle fests and talks and cuddles.  It's just that all of us in 
the bed meant that it wasn't a time for sleeping :-)

But something for you parents with the little ones who won't sleep to think 
about.  Now that my boys are so big, you can't get them OUT of the bed any
longer.  School days are pretty much ok (I refuse to wake them more than once,
if they're late, that's their problem) but the weekends!!  If I don't get them
going they'd still be in bed at 1:00 in the afternoon!

Cheryl

I think Ferber is worth reading, even if you don't choose to use his
techniques.  One thing I found invaluable is a table of the average 
amount of sleep a child needs from birth thru 18 years.  I had always wondered
how bedtimes were chosen until I saw that table.

I personally am a Ferber advocate, and so is my husband.  His beliefs that
a child needs to learn to go to asleep on their own is, to me, just another
step in helping a child be independant and self-sufficient.  These are
traits my husband and I value very highly, and we hope to encourage them
in our children.

That's not to say, of course, that a child who sleeps in a family bed won't
be independant and self-sufficient.  *All* this parenting stuff is a judgement
call.  Whatever technique fits your child and your life is what you should do.

But I think doing the research is worth it.  Even if you reject a particular
technique, you have gotten more information which will help you decide what's
right for you.

Pat

    RE: .66
    
    Should of known...that's what I get for bragging about Mitch
    being such a good sleeper....;^)
    
    Over the past 2 weeks Mitch has started having sleep problems....
    He's always been so easy to put to bed...he's just turning 8 months.
    
    I think .66 hit the nail on the head in our situation, too...Mitch
    has become so attached to me...my hubby spends a little more time with him
    than I do because of our schedules...but he has become so clingy
    towards me.  I think when I lay him down, he starts screaming because
    he wants to be with me....kind of like separation anxiety.
    
    Unfortunately, whenever we go into his room and make him lay down
    again, he gets even louder.  What do you do?  The Ferber method
    suggests going in every 5-10 minutes and reassuring them, but it
    just seems to aggravate the situation...so we leave him alone (which
    I just feel terrible) and it is over in about 20-30 minutes.  But,
    if he screams out of desperation, I will check on him...it's the
    tired, whiny crying times when I leave him alone.  Do other people
    feel going in to see the baby frequently just aggravates the situation?
    I don't want to make Mitchell feel abandoned but it just seems easier
    on all of us if we leave him alone.....this is so confusing....it's
    all new to me...
    
    Lately, he has been better about going to sleep. It was real bad for
    a weekend...but has seemed to calm down.  I'm sure there will be other
    times like these.
    
    Recently he wakes up about 2 or 3 am and cries...his appetite
    has increased so I think he may be going through a growing spurt and
    may be hungry...I've been leaving him alone and he usually goes back
    to sleep in about 5 minutes....but I'm wondering if I should feed
    him.  I did one night and he went right back to sleep.  But I don't
    want it to become a habit rather than a need....He gets
    a full bottle before bed time...any comments?
                                                  
    
    Kristen 
    

    Kristen-
    
    My son has a similar sleeping problem -- as soon as he sees his daddy,
    all he wants to do is be with him.  Getting my son to go to bed has
    become quite the chore.  What we do now is I put him to bed, not my
    husband.  That way, it won't be as difficult for Isaac to relax.  If
    his dad puts him to bed, all Isaac wants to do is play, play, play!
    He still cries, but I'm the one to go in and quiet him down.  He only
    lasts about two minutes!  Perhaps your husband could put Mitch to bed
    instead?
    
    Jennifer
    

    Your situation sounds familiar. When my daughter just fusses in her
    crib (whiny cry, not *really* upset, still lying down), we usually
    don't go in to reassure her more than maybe once. Going in seems to
    make things worse; she settles herself in a few minutes if we don't.
    
    When she is standing up and screaming, I try to get my husband to go in
    because she is less clingy with him and he has good "Ferber technique"
    (he's sweet to her but firm, and doesn't stay more than 30 seconds).
    He will go back in every 4 or 5 minutes as long as it takes. It hurts
    to listen to her when this happens, but if you are going to stick to
    your Ferber-type strategy you really need to let them work it out
    themselves, with reassurance from you. These phases are short, for us.
    
    We have used this method since she was about six months old; she's
    14 months now and generally a very good, independent sleeper.
    
    Lucy

    RE: .85
    
    I also tried the Ferber method for me and it worked, but we too have
    had relapses.  My doctor said we would as well.  Andrew doesn't just
    wimper or whine, or I too would leave hime alone.  If he does wake up,
    he stand s in the crib and yells/crys loadly.  After the recommeded 4
    to 5 minutes (a real long time to me), if he doesn't give up an fall
    back to sleep, I go in, comfort him, calm him down a little, do NOT
    pick him up, but basically spend a minute or two, as Ferber's method
    suggests.  Once I leave again, it seems worse for Andrew (based upon
    the loudness of his crying) but it them only lasts one to 2 more
    minutes and that's it.
    
    I have wondered that maybe in the first 5 minutes, he thinks I don't
    hear him, or something so when I first go in to comfort him, he calms
    downs and "thinks" I'll pick him up, or feed him or whatever.  I don't,
    so once I leave the room again, he yells loadly I think because he's
    mad at me, plain and simple, but soon (the 1 to 2 minutes) he gives in
    and lies down and is almost immediately asleep.  I know, because I
    check and am not lucky to fall back to sleep as quickly as Andrew. 
    This may sound cruel to some of you, but I couldn't be cruel to my son,
    firm yes.  I too tried the "family bed" first, because it seemed
    easier, but nether my husband or I ....OR Andrew got a good night sleep, so
    I tried the Ferber method out of desperation.  I agreed with the many
    other noters, both pro and con Ferber, that what's best for you, your
    child and your family can only be decided by those involved directly
    and also in my case, trial and error.
    
    FWIW, the relapses are rare, not frequent, and seem to happen after
    major events (vacations) or illnesses (i.e. teething etc.)  Andrew is
    14 months and my doctor sayd that around 18 months I can expect the
    sleep cycles to be disrupted with molars and growth spurts.  I CAN
    wait.
    
    Beth
    

    
    I had the "early morning 5 min wake up" problem with my son about
    2 months ago (9 mos old) and found if I just let him cry, he was back
    to sleep in about 5 mins.   He would wake up about 3-4am, start crying,
    then go back to sleep. I found I had to STOP myself from flying in
    there (for I was just sound asleep and my first reaction was to go to
    him)
    
    It only lasted about 2 weeks...
    
    Chris
    

    Well, I've decided that the Ferber technique is not for us.  I know
    that I can't use the Family Bed method either.  What I have been doing
    is telling her that she has to first fall asleep in her own bed and if
    she wakes up in the middle of the night she can come in and sleep on my
    floor.  That was three days ago and I haven't been woken up once.  What
    bliss is was to have three glorious days of un-interupted sleep!  So
    far she has not taken me up on my offer and has slept through the night
    in her own bed.  I think maybe as long as she knows it's ok to sleep on
    my floor if she needs to, she feels safer.  I probably have completely
    jinxed myself by writing all of this but I thought all of the nice
    noters that have come to my "sanity" rescue should know what is working
    for us!  Thank you all and I'll let you know if there is any change.
    
    Barb

    My daughter is 1 yr. old. She sometimes wakes up several times at
    night. I don't know why maybe (teething,Hungry etc.). We give her a
    bottle and usually she goes back to sleep, but sometimes she doesn't go
    back to sleep and we don't know what to do after. Should we let her cry
    or should we get up for her. Is it ok to leave a bottle in the crib
    with her.? I heard it isn't good to do that. Can anyone help?

    Teething could be a factor.  I don't think she is hungry.  By 1
    year old, she should be able to sleep through the night without
    midnight feedings.  I wouldn't give her a bottle.  She may get
    into a habit.  I would let her cry for few minutes, let her
    have the chance to fall back to sleep by herself.  If the crying
    continues, I will probably pick her up and rock her.  It may
    take a few days for her to sleep through the night again.
    
    Good luck, Wendy   

    Well Chelsea is just shy of five months and creeping backwards at the
    speed of sound.  For the past three mornings (early!!) she has scooted
    to the very end of her crib and gotten her legs out up to her knees.
    Of course she has pinned herself which makes one very unhappy wakeup
    call!
    
    I have fudged around with the bumper pads, but she always seems to find
    a way to get her feet under them and before you know it legs are a 
    dangling.
    
    So do you educated moms and dads out there that have been thru this
    stage have any neat tricks on rigging the crib that you can pass down
    to us first time parents!!
    
    Thanks in advance....
    
    Lori 

    Hi,
    
    I'm not sure if this will work (we never experienced dangling legs;
    only dangling arms!), but how about trying to dress her in those
    pajama bags - they have no legs - maybe that would make it harder for
    her to get her legs between the slats.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sheryl

My twins both have done this.  I remember one time where Jessica had wedged
her leg in between the crib slats and the wall so tight that I had to move
the crib away from the wall to get her out.  I never found a good way to
keep them from doing it, but I do move them in when I check them through the
night if they have an arm or leg hanging out.  Maybe if you put her back
in the middle of the crib when you check on her, or perhaps shove a blanket 
below the mattress and up behind the bumper pads so that she won't have a
way to get her little legs out might help.   

re: .96

Perhaps the nylon mesh type material you frequently see in playpens, or even 
letting her sleep in a playpen.

Incidentally, you are right to be concerned.  When our daughter was about 10 
months, she fractured her femur (the bone in the thigh).  We don't know for 
sure how she did it, but one possibility is that she broke it by getting her 
leg wedged between the slats.  She did exactly what your daughter is doing, 
and also tended to flail a lot.

Clay

    Thanks for all the tips!
    
    Since hubby is a carpenter I told him he should be able to come up with
    some sort of device to rig the crib...with out hammering a piece of
    plywood into her solid oak crib.
    
    I had thought about wedging the blankets, but by luck we had a delivery
    from UPS that came in a large cardboard box.  Glenn cut down the box
    to slide behind the bumper pads.  It fit the back of the crib and about
    a foot on each side.  He cut holes in the carboard to bring the bumper
    pad ties thru so they wouldn't slide up.  The cardboard is hard enough
    to keep her from kicking thru, but soft enough to keep her from injury.
    
    I also check on her several times a night and hold my breath while I
    put her back in the middle of the bed....its when she lets out that
    large sigh and looks like she is gonna wake up that I almost kick
    myself for touching her.  I move her about twice a night but she still
    manages to be back at the bottom.  I think alot of it has to do with
    her scooting backwards so much right now....its a new thing and she
    seems to carry her floor activity into her crib.
    
    Anywho....she slept till 5:30!!! (went to bed at 7:30) and mommy went
    to bed at 8:00.....needless to say I feel like a new woman today, its
    amazing what just ONE good nights sleep will do for you!!
    
    Thanks!
    
    ..Lori

    I've never been able to keep either of my two kids from jamming
    themselves up against the corners and edges of the crib. We kept the
    bumper pads on the crib the entire two years my son was in it, and it
    looks like we'll be doing that again. And we've had plenty of arms and
    legs hanging out as well. I think they seek the secure feeling of
    lying against something. Your cardboard solution is clever!
    
    Lucy

    I have unsuccessfully tried both Dr. Ferber's method and the family-bed
    methods.  
    
    My daughter is 2.5 years old.  She has never slept well.  But she would
    stay in her room.  Now she refuses to stay in her bed.  I have tried
    the gates, holding the door shut, but now she works herself up so much
    that she vomits.  Dr. Ferber suggests that you go in clean her up
    matter-of-factly and begin all over again.  After she vomits she
    pretty much starts to hyperventilate.  Its about all we can stand and
    then we bring her to our bed, well she falls to sleep right away, but
    she kicks, flips and flops, wakes up at all hours and so on.  I can't
    remember the last time I had a full nights rest.  I have called my
    peditrician recently on this and he suggests that I go back to the
    Ferber method and stick it out this time.  He said it may take three
    weeks to get the problem straightend out.  I know there is no easy 
    solution.
    
    I have tried to get her to stay on the floor next to our bed, but she
    insists on being in our bed.  If she falls asleep in our bed and we
    move her back to hers, as soon as she wakes up (even though it is lit
    like a x-mas tree :^)), she starts screaming and we end up with her in
    our bed again.
    
    Any suggestions about the vomiting and hyperventilating.  Is it humane
    to allow her to get to this point???  Help!  I am at the breaking point.
    

    Re: .101
    
    I have no problem with her hugging the sides of the bumper pads with
    any part of her body...infact the dangling legs would have gone un-
    noticed if not for her screams of frustration from being pinned.  I
    noticed that when she was just a couple of weeks old she loved cramming
    her head against the bumperpad, which I am sure reminded her of the
    snugness of the uterus and when she was engaged prior to birth.
    
    About the bumper pads..somebody told me that you are suppose to remove
    them when the child is old enough to stand up because they will step
    on them and possibly with the added height fall out of the crib??
    
    Whats your experience?
    
    ...Lori

    
    I think I removed Michael from his crib when he started "stomping" them
    to death!!  When he was able to pull himself up in the crib and stand.
    Not really because he could get out any easier (cause you can just
    lower the mattress a notch), but because he was squishing them out of
    shape, and there was no real need for them anymore...
    
    Chris
    

    .103:
    
    Both my kids have stomped the bumper pads into mush (same ones for
    both kids) but we keep them on anyway, because my daughter still
    likes to sleep with her head jammed up against them. 
    
    We just adjusted the crib sides so that they are too tall to allow
    escape (so far).
    
    .102:
    
    I have been down this road with my elder kid. The vomiting and
    hyperventilating would be too much for me, too (it was). I gave up
    on Ferber at that point and let him sleep on the floor next to our
    bed. Our pedi said not to, but he didn't have to live with my son.
    
    We explained the rules: "Dan, it seems like you are not ready to stay
    in your own bed. So you can sleep on our floor on the following 
    conditions: you need to go to sleep for the night in your own bed.
    Then if you wake up later you can come into our room and sleep on
    the floor. If you don't like the floor, you can always go back to
    your own bed, anytime you want." Then we stuck to our rules
    religiously. And yes, you may have company in your room for a long
    time -- but that can be o.k. considering the alternatives.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Lucy

    Please see notes 30.121-30.124 for a discussion of swaddling infants.
    
    L
    co-mod
    

    Re: 102
    
    Avanti (3.3 yrs) also did that for a while around age 2. We bought 2
    twin beds and put them next to each other. We would have her sleep in
    her bed and either I or my husband would sleep next to her until she
    fell asleep. This worked quite well - took a while but it eventually
    did work. Then we moved the 2 beds away and she would sleep in her bed
    and one of us would sleep or read in the other bed. She knew that we
    were in her room and had no problems sleeping. She slowly realized that
    we would sit there until she fell asleep and then go to our room.
    
    This worked until Neel was born. Since I could not give her a lot of
    attention or spend much time with her she is back to falling asleep in
    our bed and then we carry her off to her bed. She sometimes wakes up
    around 3:30am and wants to come to our bed but that is " 'cause I want
    my Mommy". As soon as Neel starts sleeping in her bedroom she will be
    fine (I hope!).
    
    Shaila

    re :-1
    
    I forgot to mention that Avanti too would squirm around a lot and wake
    up a lot when in our bed since the space between Daddy and Mommy was
    too little for her to move in her sleep. Also in the summer she would
    get hot since the breeze from the fan would not reach her over her
    Daddy :-)
    
    In the winter she had no problems since she can snuggle up to one of us
    and keep warm.
    
    Shaila

    Thanks for the suggestions.
    
    After two nights I feel I have made a little bit of progress.  I went
    back to the Ferber method of putting a chair in her room and sitting
    with her until she falls asleep.  The first night it took an hour and a
    half for her to get to sleep, at least she did it on her own.  She woke
    up once and it didn't take too long for her to settle in again.  Last
    night I sat with her and it took an hour.  She woke up once and I went
    in for a 1/2 hour.  She woke up again and my husband ended up sleeping
    the floor in her room.  I feel we are making some progress because she
    is not climbing into our bed.  She is at least staying in her own.  I
    know that we have a l-o-n-g road ahead of us.  Tonight I am moving the
    chair to the middle of the room.  
    
    If anyone has used the chair method, I am wondering when you can
    eventually get the chair out of the room.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kris
    

    Given that the time changed a couple of days ago, I am amazed that I'm 
    the first one entering this note.  I can't imaging that we're the only
    ones in this situation.
    
    Our baby (10+ months) goes to sleep at 8:00 PM, and sleeps until 6:00,
    or at least, he did before the time changed!  He seemed to adjust to the 
    time change just fine.  The first night, he was not ready to crash until 
    8:00 (new time, so an hour later than normal), so we thought:  piece of 
    cake!
    
    But, not too surprisingly, he hasn't adjusted on the other end.  So,
    he's waking at 5:00, rather than 6:00.  We have tried letting him try
    to go back to sleep on his own (with Ferber techniques), but with two
    mornings, this has not worked.  Granted, we didn't let it go on for
    long, as he was really upset, and Ferber techniques worked great for
    him when he started nighttime awakenings.
    
    So, we have gotten him up at 5:15ish, and fed (nursed) him.  (He's always
    famished first thing in the morning.)  However, since he's an hour short 
    of sleep, he has gone back to sleep for an hour or so both mornings.  So, 
    obviously he really needs the sleep.
    
    So, do we get him up when he awakens, and let his body adjust normally,
    or do we "force" him with sticking out the Ferberizing?
    
    Thoughts?  Success stories?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Leslie

    Leslie,
    
    You certainly aren't the only one whose kids were thrown out of
    whack by the time change. It happens every time, [sigh]. I've
    decided after all kinds of attempts to hurry my kids' adjustment
    to just let them adapt on their own. 
    
    My theory is that all the other things in their lives that happen 
    by the clock (the time they go to daycare or school, the time we
    go to and arrive home from work, make dinner, etc) all cumulatively
    nudge them back into their old schedule over a few days' time.
    
    Lucy

    I agree with Lucy....give it time.
    
    Chelsea usually wakes up around 6:00...lately even 6:30ish.
    
    Sunday morning it was 5:30...Monday Morning it was 5:15...and this
    morning it was 5:45.  She goes to bed at 8:00.  I figure that
    eventually she will work herself back into her schedule and as long
    as thats going to bed at 8:00 and getting up anytime after 5:00....its
    okay with us.
    
    ..Lori

    Thanks for the feedback so far.  What concerns (for lack of a better
    term) us is that he's going back to sleep immediately, for another
    hour or so, after being fed.  So, he's obviously still exhausted when
    he awakens.  
    
    This seems like a bad habit, but will that work our when he adjusts?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Leslie

    Maybe if he doesn't give up this early-nurse-then-back-to-sleep
    pattern by the weekend you could re-Ferberize him, if that's the
    technique you like. That way you will have given him a chance to
    adjust on his own, but not wait too long to provide a "nudge" back
    to his old ways. (I've done this successfully with my daughter.)
    
    Lucy

    Good suggestion, Lucy.  This morning Harrison woke up at 5:25, so we're
    improving, but he did nurse, play for about one minute, and then go back 
    to sleep.  (That's not all bad, from a selfish perspective!)
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Leslie

	Suggestions wanted:

	Emily (5 months), for the last week, has been waking
	several times during the night.  She flips herself onto
	her back, then babbles and fusses until one of us goes in
	to turn her back to her belly.  We went through this for about
	a week when she was 3 months old, but it stopped quickly.  Also,
	at that time, she didn't know how to roll from back to belly.

	Now, she can roll over both ways (Belly to back, back to belly).
	I'm wondering if we should leave her alone now when she gets on
	her back, and let her figure out that she knows how to get on
	to her belly, or if we should continue to go help her out.  She's
	never even gotten into a real cry from this, she just fusses for
	a while until we go in.

	This isn't a huge problem, I mean, she sleeps nearly twelve
	hours at a stretch, and falls right back to sleep after being
	assisted onto her belly, but I don't want to start a bad habit.

	I've tried to determine what might be causing the wakefulness
	in the first place, but haven't had any luck yet.

	Karen

    
    Have you tried putting a stuffed animal, or rolled blanket on either
    side of her to try and stop the rolling???
    
    Might help..
    
    Chris
    

    Chelsea did this at three months too...and didn't know how to roll back
    the other way.  She would wake up screaming and I would run in there to
    find her looking like a fish out of water.  I would roll her over and
    a couple of hours later she would do it again.
    
    I mentioned it to the pedi and she suggested putting two rolled
    receiving blankets on each side of her and then tucking a crib blanket
    form her middle back really tight into the sides of the crib.  Well I 
    didn't really like the idea of pinning her in so tight, so I just tried
    the tucking of the crib blanket.  Worked for a few nights, but I would
    get her in the morning and she would be out of the tuck, turned around
    in the complete opposite direction and on top of the blanket.  Being
    this was as tight a tuck I could do (..without cutting off her
    breathing!!)..I gave up on that idea.
    
    What was really strange was the nights I would put her in a blanket
    sleeper she would sleep thru the night.  We had some pretty warm
    (humid) nights in California a couple of months ago...if I would put
    her to sleep in light p.j.'s or a onesie, she would wake up.  Now she
    sleeps in her blanket sleeper everynight and seems to love them.
    
    She been rolling both ways for a while now.  My suggestion is to just
    let her fuss until it gets really serious (we all know that cry!).  She
    will probably fuss around for 10 minutes or so and then put herself
    back to sleep.
    
    Just recently I have been awaken at 2 or 3 in the morning by Chelsea
    over the monitor.  At first, I thought she had a bad case of gas....
    but then discovered that she was just blowing bubbles and playing new
    sounds with her mouth.  I don't know either what has been waking her
    up in the early am lately....but she blows away for about 10-15 minutes
    and then goes back to sleep....I don't dare even go near her room when
    she is awake that early...I know she can smell me thru the door!!
    
    Good Luck!
    
    ....Lori

	
	Thanks!

	I've tried the rolled up blankets, but Emily-the-steamroller
	plows right through them.  Sometimes I find her on her back
	with the big roll under her.

	I found the same thing as you, Lori, with the sleepers, and I 
	really do think that was the problem at 3 months - a slight
	chill in the air.  But I have switched her to the blanket sleeper,
	and it hasn't changed things too much (one less wakeful period 
	per night).  

	I guess I'll give her another week, then it's time for a little
	mother-to-daughter talk ;-)

Karen

    Here I am again...still battling the sleep issue.  Things are bad
    today because my husband is off traveling for DEC and I got about
    15 minutes of sleep last night.  My son has never been a good sleeper.
    He's 10.5 months old and was up 6 times last night.  We tried the
    Ferber method when he was about 5 months old and things improved a
    little bit but never got GREAT.  Now, that he is standing up in the
    crib as soon as he wakes up he stands up and fusses and cries.  We
    always go in after a few minutes and either pat him on the back to get
    him to settle down, when we do pat him he usually falls a sleep in 2 to
    5 minutes.  On other occasions he gets more upset when he sees us and
    won't lay back down so we end up changing him and then giving him a
    bottle.  It seems that when he won't settle back down he is telling us
    he wants a bottle.
    
    I know my mistakes...what my question is how do I ferberize him again
    now that he is standing up in the crib.  If we go in and pat him he
    may lay down for the one to two minutes but when we leave he's standing
    up and crying again.  We tried it the other night and it was an hour
    of this and then we gave in and gave him a bottle.
    
    It's been about 3 weeks since he slept straight thru....I'd be happy
    with 8:00 to 5:30!
    
    Thanks for listening!
    
    Kelly
    
    
    
    
    

    Kelly,
    
    I lived through the situation you are describing with your son.
    Jason finally started sleeping through the night at 10 months. 
    
    What's unclear from your notes is whether you are still giving him
    a bottle at bedtime (the FIRST bedtime!)?   I'm not sure what 
    part of the Ferber technique you are using, but I'd recommend 
    reading the chapter on sleep associations.   If you are feeding
    him at bedtime and again in the middle of the night, you could
    start by eliminating the bedtime bottle (feeding him earlier,
    before he's sleepy).  Eliminating the association of bottle-feeding
    with sleep solved my son's terrible sleep problem without a lot
    of crying/screaming in the middle of the night.   
    
    I definitely wouldn't change him in the middle of the night if
    he's just wet.   In fact, I wouldn't allow him to leave his 
    room or crib at all.   
    
    Good luck, I know from experience how tough this can be!
    
    Carol

Try not going in.  He will eventually get the message that you will not be
going in every time he cries, and will go back to sleep on his own.  It will
take time, and he will spend a lot of time crying, but they do eventually 
figure it out.

I have twins with Jessica being a great sleeper, and Brad hardly requiring
any sleep at all.  We can bring them up to bed and have Jessica lay down,
cover her up, and she's fine.  Brad just stands in his crib, so we kiss him
good-night, close the door and leave. He knows that we will not go back in
so he doesn't fuss.  He plays with his stuffed friends, and eventually goes
to sleep.  If he does fuss, it's for about 30 seconds (usually stops by
the time I get to the bottom of the steps).  He used to cry for up to 20 
minutes, but he eventually figured out that it was night-time and time to
go to sleep.  The problem we have is that he sometimes wakes up when we
go in to cover them before we go to sleep, and thinks it's play time.  Once
he's seen us, he wants to get up.  We never pick him up, and he usually ends
up crying for about 5 minutes, but he does go back to sleep.

Now, if either of them wake up crying, we always go in to check because it
usually means something is wrong.  But they don't cry because they don't
want to go to sleep anymore; they cry if there's a problem like they are cold,
messy diaper, foot stuck in crib....

We tried Ferberizing like had been mentioned here by going in every 5 minutes
for reassurance, but that basically just started his crying from scratch.
We found that by not going in, he eventually calmed himself down and went to
sleep.  And he does peep in the middle of the night just about every night,
but we don't go in unless he gets insistent (cries more than 4 or 5 yelps).
We've figure out that it must be when he's going to the bathroom, and it's
cold, so wakes him just slightly.  He usually goes right back to sleep.

And my kids sleep anywhere from 12-15 hours a night with a nap or 2 during
the day, though Brad does not nap as long as Jessica, but he doesn't seem
to require as much sleep.

Cathy

    
    I know how hard this can be, and I sympathize with you. I never thought
    I'd get to the point where we are now (13 mos) where some nights he
    actually walks to his room himself, to his crib and starts climbing in!
    (I'm sure there are some old notes from me in this string!) I'm in
    heaven! (watch, now that I've said that he'll start giving me a hard
    time again!! Shhhhh)
    
    One idea as far as the bottle goes if youre not ready to not allow it
    at all, is to just give him "water" after his last regular bottle of
    the night. He will eventually realise that water isnt worth it! (maybe)
    
    Chris
    

    Thanks for the replies and support...
    
    I spoke with my husband last night (he's still on travel) we decided
    that this weekend is it.  I will try giving him a bottle before his
    bedtime.  We have always given him a bottle right before he goes in and
    1/2 the time he does fall asleep taking his bottle.  Also, now I'm
    starting to get concerned about his teeth.  I read how bad that is for
    his teeth.  Last night was better he went in around 8:00 woke up at
    9:30 crying very hard I went in after 5 minutes patted him for 3
    minutes, I left, he woke up again and I let him cry for 20 minutes,
    then I went in and patted him for about 5 minutes and he fell asleep. 
    He woke up at 4:30 and I gave him a bottle (I figured that was the
    longest stretch he's had in a while).  But he was ready to start his
    day at that time and I said no way!!!  I let him cry and after 20
    minutes I went in and I tried patting him again but he wouldn't even lay
    down so I ended up rocking him for 5 minutes and he was out till 7:15
    when I had to wake him up.
    
    I know we are not there yet but maybe little by little it will
    hopefully improve.  I thought when he was an infant he'd definetly be
    sleeping 12 hours a night by now.
    
    thanks again,
    
    Kelly
    
    
    
    

Why does he have to be laying down or sleeping before you leave the room?
It might be OK to let him get used to laying back down on his own and then
eventually going to sleep.  My son is never laying down when we leave the
room.  We just put him in his crib, get hugs and kisses, and leave him
standing there.  He likes to play in his crib before he goes to sleep, and
that's fine by me.

I also wondered if it is possible that your son really is hungry.  I noticed
you mentioned giving him a bottle twice, but I didn't see any mention of 
solids.  I'm assuming that he has solids for dinner and then maybe a bedtime
bottle?  Perhaps you need to increase his dinner, and maybe he won't need
the additional bedtime bottle.  I  never had to deal with that because we
started the solids in place of the night time bottle, and kept bringing it
in earlier.  Now, my kids eat dinner with us around 5:30 or 6:00, but they
have never needed a bottle or snack after that, so they just go to bed around
7:00 or 7:30 and I don't hear a peep til the next morning.  I just thought
that your son may really be hungry, so you might want to try this.

Another possibility is that he is cold.  My kids will wake up if they are too
cold, so I leave socks under Jessica's sleeper and put onesies on both kids.
And I put plenty of blankets on them before I go to bed.  That may be another
reason why he's waking up.

Keep plugging.  It will get better.

Cathy

    
    Your scenerio sounds alot like Michael at about that age (give or take
    a week or 2) and I'd say...don't fret! Michael would 1/2 the time fall
    asleep in my arms with his last bottle, then the other 1/2 the time it
    was more of a struggle. The nights that he didn't fall asleep with it,
    I chose a certain time (8pm) and decided that this was going to be
    bedtime. Then we practiced the ferber method, which worked *sometimes*.
    i think our bigest problem (and maybe yours) is as someone said the
    "conditions" on which they are used to having to fall asleep, ie: the
    bottle, and in our case Mommy rocking him also. 
    
    Last nights scenerio sounds like youre on the right track, letting him 
    cry a bit...not removing him from the crib (I used to even break down
    and hold him next to his crib sometimes, but wouldn't leave the room),
    and not bringing in a bottle for comfort.  We went thru the early
    rising too, but after awhile that will come too. I was happy if I could
    get him down by 8-9pm, so 4-5am didn't seem too bad (if I went to bed
    shortly after he). 
    
    Cathy may have something there too about him being cold, how about a
    blanket sleeper? Michael woke up a couple of times last night because
    his blankets weren't on right!  (I usually have a system with the
    softest one on first). 
    
    Have you tried Music yet???  I think we started the tape recorder about
    10 mos or so. I have a nice lullaby tape, and started putting it on on
    nights he was awake when going down. And I think it helped. I think he
    doesn't feel as "alone". We still use it now. We go into his room, turn 
    the tape over, turn it on, walk over to his crib and stand in front of
    it, and I hold/hug him thru the first song, where he puts his head on
    my shoulder, starts yawning, etc...  We're standing right in front of
    his crib, so he knows he's getting ready to go in, etc...  Then I put
    him in, give him a kiss, pull the blankets up, gate up, and leave. 
    For a long while, he wouldn't lay right down, and we'd go thru this for
    15-20 mins, and I'd finally have to leave the room while he cried, but after
    awhile it started to work. (now sometimes I don't even get to hold him
    thru the first song :-(  he just wants into the crib!)
    
    I remember with the early risings having to stop myself when I first
    heard him from running right in, I'd look at the clock and start timing how
    long he cried. Sometimes he would go back to sleep after 5 mins, so if I
    had run right in (first impulse when 1/2 asleep) I would of made it worse.
    
    Keep trying...it will be worth it in the end!!! My father used to give
    me so much grief when Mike was about 8-9 mos old, saying I was doing
    "it" wrong, that I should just let him cry etc, that by rocking him and
    giving him a bottle I was spoiling him etc..that he'd never be able to 
    go to sleep on his own. Now at 13 mos as I said, he's walking himself
    to his room and climbing up to his crib to get in! I used to let it
    really bother me, but I feel now that EVERY kid is different, that the
    child will learn these things at their own pace, and it doesn't make me
    a bad mother if I do things differently than "the book". I was selfish
    for that "cuddletime" (rocking) because I work and don't get as much
    time as I'd like with him, and they aren't babies forever, and I took
    advantage of it.
    
    I know the "going down" part isnt as bad as the middle of the night
    wakings, but it will all come. you're on your way! you will sleep
    again!  
    
    Good Luck,
    Chris
    (have you checked the other replies in here...?)
    
      

    
    Hi,
    
    I'd just like to report that I (we) have had 6 nights of wonderful
    sleep!!  He has been going down around 8-8:30 and sleeping anywhere
    from 6:30 to 7:30.  I have heard him wake up a few times and settle 
    himself back down.  We haven't had to go in at all!! (except for the
    one night my husband heard him and he was in such a deep sleep he went
    in and started patting his back...he realized what he was doing and
    left!)  It is hard when you are half out of it.
    
    We will try and keep up our routines.  I hope this is it!!  We might
    even consider another baby if this keeps up!!! (geez, what am I
    saying?)
    
    thank you all for your suggestions.
    
    Kelly
    
    

    Hi, we've just developed a sleeping problem with Sarah (7 mos next
    week).  She's always been an excellent sleeper, no special lighting or
    noise requirements, and at most fussed for about 5 minutes before
    dropping off to sleep.  However, the past week she's refused to go
    down to sleep.  I know she's tired, all her telltale signs are there,
    rubbing her eyes, yawning, a little fussy, but when I put her down
    she screams bloody murder.  This can go on for an hour.  I've made sure
    that her piglet and favorite teething bracelet are in there (she likes
    to snuggle with them).  Last night I tried rubbing her back and bum for
    a bit; she liked that and calmed down, but as soon as I stopped, her
    head popped back up and she'd look around for me and start screaming.
    Finally, she fell asleep on her own.  Once she is asleep, though, she's
    out for the night.
    
    Her napping seems to be fine, she fusses for a moment and then goes
    right out.  I've talked to her daycare provider and she said that it's
    the same.  She gets 2 naps a day.
    
    I don't have a clue what kicked this off.  She has had some changes in
    her life recently; she started a new daycare 3 weeks ago, but seems to
    have adjusted fine, and she got a new tooth last week.  I don't think
    it's an ear infection since she will nap and she doesn't mind laying
    down.
    
    Is this an age where they start having separation anxiety?  Do I need
    to Ferberize her to nip this in the bud?  I hate the thought of her
    screaming every night and only falling off to sleep because she's
    drained herself.
                      
    Thanks,
    Susan

    I'd say nip it now...while she remembers how to go to sleep herself.
    I made a big mistake in holding Lindsay around that age 6-7 months...
    I felt so bad she had a bad cold lasted forever....was cutting a 
    tooth and I just pitied her feeling so bad and gave in....now I am 
    still in the process of re-training her to go sleep herself...
    nearing the end....been kinda easy this week and last.  It wasn't
    very fun!
    

    Can anyone help my neighbor?  Her 20-month-old, Zachary, comes
    into their room every night -- won't stay in his own bed.  They
    just moved him from a crib to a toddler bed because he kept
    climbing out and Chris (his mother) was afraid that he'd break
    his neck if he kept this up.  She called her pedi and he told
    her to lock his bedroom door.  Chris does not want to do this.
    I don't blame her, BTW.  Zachary shares a room with his big
    brother, Joshua, so Chris is also concerned that if she starts
    locking the door, what will Josh (age 6) do if he has to get up
    and go to the bathroom.  How _do_ you keep kids in bed?  I told her I'd
    ask you guys.

Evan was't out of the crib until much later, but when he did get into a bed,
he did visit quite often.  Since I couldn't sleep with him next to me, I put
a time limit on how long he could stay in bed.  Typically I would say something
like, "Okay, you can lie down in bed with me, but only for 5 minutes.  When
5 minutes is up you have to go back to your own bed."  This seemed to give
him the security of knowing I was there, without impacting my own sleep too
severely.  Most of the time, it worked okay.

      Carol

    We are going through that now. It takes a lot of time and effort and
    lack of sleep. There doesn't seem to be one quick answer to this.
    I've asked around to a lot of parents I know, and everyone does
    it different. Chris, my oldest, never climbed out of the crib.
    
    When we moved him to a bed, he wouldn't get out. He'd call for us,
    and we'd go get him. However, during the day, he'd climb in and out
    of the bed. Then I went away to DECUS, and my husband started having
    a hard time getting him to stay in bed. When I came back it ended
    up that my husband would sleep on the floor in Chris's room in
    a sleeping bag if Chris woke up. This stopped him from sleeping
    in our bed. But that didn't help my husband out. Then we would
    sit in the rocking chair until Chris fell asleep. We then moved
    it to the doorway, and waited there until he fell asleep. That is
    where we are now, and he is still waking up during the night and
    getting out of bed.
    
    We try the "Your a big boy, you can do it all by yourself" trick.
    Sometimes it works, most of the time, and the next morning we
    praise him for doing it all by himself.
    
    It's very tiring, but hopefully it will end!!
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sheila
    

    
    ANy suggestions?
    
    My 6 month old sleeps in a sitting room off our bedroom.  He can see
    our bed from his crib.
    
    Lately, he's decided that 2-4 am is a delightful time to play with
    Mommy.  He wakes up in a great mood, and resists any and all efforts to
    persuade him to go back to sleep.  What I have tried is nursing (no
    interest until about 3:45, then he goes right back to sleep) or walking
    the floor with a little bounce in my step (2:00 and a bounce in your
    step *is* a contradiction in terms!)  
    
    I resist the school of thought that says you just leave 'em in the crib
    and let 'em cry it out, plus I don't think I could do that without
    moving his bed to another room, since he could see us, but I'm getting a 
    little, shall we say, "cranky" from lack of sleep. 
    
    
    IDeas?
    Jamd

    Chelsea went into her own bedroom at 8 weeks.  With a monitor and
    checking her atleast 20 times a night, I slowly got use to her not
    being in the bassinet right by my bed.  I also wanted her to become
    familiar with her crib in hopes she would learn to love it (which she
    does most of the time!)
    
    When Chelsea would wake up in the middle of the night, which started
    around 5 months...and it really wasn't all to often...I kept pretty
    firm with my routine....now I'm glad I did, because for the most part
    when she wakes up, she goes right back down within 5 - 15 minutes.
    
    . Since she had been off the early am feeding for a couple of months,
      I made it a rule not to offer her a bottle before 5am.  If I did, it
      had water in it and that had very little appeal to her.
    
    . Kept the room dark when I went in (just a little night light) and
      took her out of the crib...never said a word (I found that when I did
      talk to her she would just wake up like its time to play!)
    
    . Changed her diaper and would rock with her for about 5 minutes in the
      chair...a month went by and I cut out the rocking part, cuz she would
      want to start playing with my face and start to wake up more.
    
    . I put her back in the crib with a snuggly blanket and rub her back
      for a minute and out of the room I go.
    
    Now I'm not so tight on this routine that I won't take into
    consideration nights that are full of teething pain, colds, etc...those
    in my opinion are the nights we do extra snuggling and go with the
    flow.  But when its just a case of waking up to play...well its check
    the diaper..a quick snuggle and back in the bed she goes.
    
    Good luck!
    
    ...Lori

	Does your son's room have a door ?  We have begun to
	close Emily's door most of the way when she goes to bed,
	mostly as a signal for her that it's sleep time, not play time.

	I can still hear her very very clearly if she fusses at all.

	The only time Emily would go down to sleep with me in the
	room (or being able to see me) was during teething.  Any other
	time, seeing Mommy means mealtime or playtime.  I'm pretty
	business-like about putting her to bed: I snuggle her, kiss
	her, tell her I love her, say a prayer for and with her, then
	kiss her again, and put her in the crib.  I cover her with the
	blankets, then I'm out of the room.  She may fuss for 1-3 minutes,
	then she goes off to sleep.  Again, the only exception was during
	teething.

	Karen

    Does anyone know how much sleep a toddler (2.5 years old) should be
    getting?   Lately, Emily takes an hours nap during the day and then
    sleeps for only 8 hours at night.  I'm a little concerned.   
    
    We have a nightly ritual of a bath, quiet play (10 minutes), story
    reading, and (with the lights out) songs.  When we put her down, she
    seems quiet and sleepy, but recently she's not been falling asleep.
    Instead, she taken to staying up in her crib for an hour or two, 
    talking/singing to herself and her stuffed animals.  
    
    She certainly doesn't sound distressed or upset, but she's not falling
    asleep until 10pm or later and she's getting up around 6 am.
    
    Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.
    
    Gene                                 
    not distr
    

    Every kid's sleep requirements are going to be unique.  Is she waking
    up easily in the morning?  Is she pleasant then, and before bedtime?
    
    If she is waking up easily and is pleasant (or as pleasant as anyone
    can be in the morning), then I think 8 hours is what she needs.
    
    My 2-1/2 year old sleeps for about 10 hours at night and takes at least
    a 1 hour nap, but that is what she needs.
    
    judy

    
    re .140
    
    If a child wakes up grouchy could that mean not enough sleep or too
    much?
    
    Just curious.  my 3 year old often wakes up grouchy... either in the
    morning or after her nap.
    
    Jamd

    I think in general, if a child wakes up grouchy, they probably haven't
    gotten enough sleep.  BUT, I remember as a {little bit older} child, 
    waking up *VERY* grouchy from occassional naps.  I remember being
    TOTALLY disoriented and confused and felt completely out of place and
    out of touch.  I didn't "cheer up" until I had figured things out -
    what time it was, where everyone was, what was going on, how long I'd
    been sleeping.  I guess it's part of being SUCH a sound sleeper -
    sometimes I'd wake up 1/2 hour after getting home from school. 
    Sometimes I'd wake up after dinner!  I think it being dark was what
    disoriented me the most - maybe a little light would help your 3 year
    old wake up a little easier.
    
    

    I think Patty is on to something.
    
    I, too, am a very heavy sleeper.  I go very deep, have intense dreams,
    can sleep for long periods of time, can be hard to wake.
    
    I need to wake up very slowly.  In fact, I often can't focus my eyes
    for a number of minutes after waking.  I prefer not to move for up to
    20 minutes.  I can easily be disoriented because I shut out all
    external stimuli.
    
    As a child I often woke up grouchy.  Patty's memo made a first-time
    connection for me between my sleep patterns and my grouchiness.  My
    parents, both rise-n-shiners, had little patience for me.  One of them
    (usually Mom) would blast into my room, lights on, loud voice,
    anxiously trying to wake me up as quick as possible to get me out to
    school or daycamp.  No wonder I woke up grouchy!
    
    I don't wake up grouchy now because I can articulate my need to be left
    alone for some time after waking, usually until after breakfast.  I
    like to do my morning things in a set pattern, largely because I'm
    still half asleep.
    
    I rarely need to wake my daughter, who usually wakes ME.  When I do
    wake her, I try to be very gentle, slow, and patient.  Even so, she's
    usually grouchy when I wake her.
    
    L

My daughter wakes very slowly just like Laura and the previous replies.  Here's
a few hints that I have found help avoid grouchiness:

	1) If there's no immediate need, I let her sleep as long as she likes.
	   She will generally take 10 - 20 minutes after opening her eyes
	   before she will decide to get out of bed on her own.

	2) If I need to wake her for some reason, I try to do it as gently 
	   as possible

		- gently open the shades in the room. (room faces west so the
		  sun doesn't shine directly in her eyes)

		- quietly sing her favorite songs.

		- rub her back gently and speak to her soothingly.

	3) If she still doessn't open her eyes after (2), I give up and resolve
	   to go to work late (I'm lucky, I can do this).

	4) Assume that it will take a minimum of 30 minutes to wake, dress, and
	   get out of the house assuming I am all dressed and ready (add more 
	   time if I have to get myself ready as well)

On the few occasions where I have attempted to rush her out of the house in the
morning or after a nap we have ended up takeing LONGER to get out of the house, 
with BOTH of us grouchy.

There is something in "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" about this.  They 
recommend in addition to suggestions already made that your examine the sleep
patterns of children because sometimes, although a child is getting enough
sleep, they don't get it at the right time and the deep sleep cycle falls in
the wrong place.

I also am a slow riser who needs a set routine to be able to manage the morning.
Don't talk to me for the first hour or so.  My boys are similar but seem to
manage better, maybe because their younger and have no choice.  The problem with
letting them sleep until they're ready to wake up is that they have school.  But
I'd never get them out of bed, even on vacation days, if I let them sleep.  
They'd stay until hell freezes over.

I guess I shouldn't complain.  They both slept until woken from the time they 
were about 1 year old.  As infants they always slept until 7 or 8 in the 
morning.

Cheryl

    I was wondering how long does it take you to put your child to bed at
    night?  Please give ages of children and maybe some of the routines you
    do.
    
    We (my husband and I have a terrible time putting our 3 1/2 to bed at
    night. Our Routine is as follows: After dinner it is bath time, we go
    up stairs and take a bath  anywhere from 15 to 25 minutes, then put them
    into their PJ's and go down stairs for quiet time, either a Kidsong
    video, playing quietly with toys or some cartoons. At 7:00 my youngest
    goes to bed (no problem at all). Eric stays up till either 7:30 to 8:00
    depending on his mood.
    
    Next we go upstairs brush our teeth, go potty, have little drink of
    water, then go and get into bed for a story or two, then prayers and
    lights out. Now is where all the problems begin...... he says he has to
    go potty again, so we try (usually nothing), get back in bed and he
    wants water, he wants his back rubbed, we shut the door and hes up
    again with more wants.... now by the time he finally stays in his room
    and goes to sleep either 30 minutes to 50 minutes has gone by, and we(
    my husband and I) have had it with him and we want to sit down to enjoy
    some of the evening or whats left of it.
    
    Do other parents have these problems and how do you handle them?
    
   Any Sugguestions would be helpful...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lynne

    
    Our ritual ....
    
    Sophie is just 3, BTW.
    
    After dinner, it's playtme with the family - our 6 month old joins in
    for a round of "climb on mommy/daddy".  the 6 month old goes down very
    easily (Usually) at 7:15.  on non-bath nights (our pedi suggests every
    2-3 days is enough in this dry climate) bedtime starts at about 7:50 
    for Sophie.
    
    Jammies go on, teeth get brushed, and a potty trip is made.  We check
    for supplies - freash glass of water, binky, and two books to read.
    after the books, - assuming mommy is still awake - Sophie gets tucked
    in.  Most nights it's enough.  Lately her imagination hasn't been going
    to bed at the same time.  So I tell her I'll check on her in 5 minutes
    (then 10, then 15 if repeats are needed.)  If she seems really disturbed, 
    I tuck her into our bed where she can see the glow of lights from
    downstairs and hear her brother sleeping (in a sittng room off our
    bedroom) and that usually does the trick.  When we come to bed, we
    tuck her into her own.
    
    works for us.
    Jamd     

    I usually have no problem getting Alexander (3) to bed at night unless
    there is one of those cartoon specials on that he wants to watch. 
    During the week he goes to be between 8:00 - 8:30.  We start out
    getting his pj's on, then give daddy a kiss (if daddy is home from work
    by then).  Then he wants a piggy back up stairs to bed, and on the way
    he says one more good night to his daddy.  We make our potty trip and
    have a small drink of water, brush his teeth and put him into bed. 
    Sometimes he wants a story or he wants to put some money in his musical
    teddy bear bank (it plays Teddy Bears picnic).  Then we place his
    doggie and either Erni or his bunny with him on his pillow and put
    their blanket on and then cover him with his (many) blankets.  Turn his
    music on (it only plays for 10 minutes but we have been playing it for
    him since he was born and he is used to it and he goes right to sleep). 
    He has never given us much problem going to bed, it's trying to get him
    up in the morning to go to daycare.  The fastest I've seen him get out
    of bed besides Christmas morning is when it snows out.  All I have to
    do is tell him it snow'd and he's out of bed and looking out the window
    in 2 seconds.
    
    Liz 

We also have a 3 1/2-year old who tries every trick in the book to postpone 
bedtime.  We've found that it takes 30-60 minutes to get him settled down.  
We used to start bedtime rituals at 7:30 or 8:00.  Now we start them at 7:00.  
That has helped tremendously, as we feel less rushed to get him in bed and we 
all enjoy the bedtime rituals more.  

Our rituals go like this:

After dinner, we play for a while (until 7:00).
While one of us gets the baby ready for bed, the other goes upstairs with 
Daniel to have a bath (once or twice a week), brush teeth, go to the bathroom, 
change into PJs, and read a story.  

(He gets his drink of water after his teeth are brushed; 2nd 
requests for a drink are usually denied (unless he's sick or it's unusually 
dry in the house).  We just tell him he's already had a drink, so no more 
until breakfast time.)

After each part of the ritual, we remind him what comes next.  He knows 
well that after story time, it's time to get in bed.

I've noticed that when things don't go smoothly, it's usually because we're 
stressed out and are in a hurry.  I've found that when I have more 
patience, we have more fun, and Daniel cooperates more.

If Daniel complains about brushing his teeth or putting on PJs, I try to 
turn it into a game.  

Once he's in bed, we tell him he must stay in bed.  If we have to remind 
him more than once, then he gets a privilege taken away from him.  We 
usually tell him after the first "offense" that if he doesn't get back in 
bed, he won't be able to watch cartoons in the morning.  That usually 
works.

Good luck, and let us know if anything new works for you.

- Sheryl
    

Since Evan was out of the crib (around age 2 1/2) we have let him play quietly
in his room after bedtime.  We do a bedtime ritual before that, of changing
into pajamas, brushing teeth, reading a story, and sometimes singing a song
to him.  After that, it is official bedtime (once the parent leaves the room).
At that point he can read, sleep, or play quietly for as late as he wants to.
His light stays on all night.  He can listen to the radio or to tapes, but we
turn off the radio when we go to bed.  He is supposed to stay in his room,
but can go to the bathroom.  We keep snacks in his room, and he can get himself
water from the bathroom.  We used to get him yogurt and a drink (or sometimes
yet another dinner of leftovers), but now only do so if he asks before we leave
the room. 

This has worked well for us.  He puts himself in bed when he is tired,
and we still get our adult time (or at least we did, before the new baby). :-)
Evan will be 5 in March.  We will continue this as long as he wakes up 
reasonably well in the morning.  If he gets harder to wake up, bedtime will
be earlier.

     Carol

    Our 5 year old, Michael likes to stay up late. And he *loves* to
    sleep late too and can and will sleep 'til 11am on weekends 
    if allowed. Christmas morning we had to drag him out of bed at 10am!
    
    He loves to be babied and his favorite bedtime ritual is a
    hot (warm) water bottle. He also likes back rubs with powder
    and a story. We use this to our advantage.
    
    We have told him that if he goes to bed "on time" (i.e. 8:30pm)
    he will get all three things. 9pm bedtime allows for the hot
    water bottle only. Anything after that is a backrub. 
    
    He's so funny...often times on a weekend it will be 10pm and he'll
    ask "is it my bedtime" which we respond "yes". No matter how many 
    times we've explained to him that it's too late for all the frills, 
    he insists on the full treatment because "bedtime=8:30pm" and he 
    feels he is complying to our rules. In actuality he knows the truth 
    but likes to think he's pulling one over on us.
    
    They are fun, aren't they?
    
    Jodi-

    I figured that I'd be able to find this topic already discussed, but I
    was wrong.  So, I guess it's time for a silly question ...
    
    When do kids (babies) start to use a pillow?  How do you know which they 
    prefer (pillow or no pillow)?  And, any suggestions on what kind (firm 
    vs. soft, foam vs. feather)?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Leslie

    I gave my daughter a pillow at age 23 months when she started sleeping
    in a bed.  Actually, she just crawled into the bed in her room, which
    already had a pillow on it, and claimed both as her own.
    
    She seems to really like using the pillow.  Sometimes for her hed, and
    sometimes to crawl right on top of it.  I guess it gives her that cozy,
    womb-like feeling. 
    
    So it wasn't my decision, it was hers.
    
    It's an old, fiberfill job.  Rather tatty, She can have a new, spiffy
    one when she's a bit older and selects her own room furnishings and
    decorations.  For now, she seems quite content.
    
    L
    

    I asked my pediatrician this, and she said at age 3.  This surprised
    me.  But Gina asked for a pillow when she moved to a bed at just over
    2.  We gave her one, and have not had any trouble.
    
    However, she barely moves when she sleeps and the pillow is relatively
    flat.  I would think this would make a difference.
    
    judy

    
    I guess we really jumped the gun.  Sophie started using one of our
    pillows at about 14 months - I found a really flat one, and she cuddles
    right up to it. 
    
    She generally sleeps on her back, and I know for teh first month, I
    checked her several times a night.
    
    Jamd

     We don't really have a problem,I was just wondering what others thought 
    about the length of time my daughters sleep.Their 7� months old and
    they sleep about 16 hours a day.They go down at about 5pm get up for
    a feed about 5am,then they go back down till about 9 or 10.We've tried
    keeping them up later but they just get very grumpy.
    
    comments please.
    
    
                   SCott

    
    We gave Michael a pillow about 11 mos. old. Not an "adult size" pillow
    tho. Its started when I started noticing him using his small stuffed
    animals in his crib as pillows, so my Mom made him his own "kid size" 
    pillow out of some quilted material and filling (w/a teddy bear on it).
    And he LOVES it. Its about 10" x 10"...  Its gets thrown in the wash
    once a week and is still holding up great.  
    
    Chris
    

    
    Samantha has had a pillow since she was six months.  She fell in
    love with the throw pillows at Grandmas house - So Grandma
    gave her one to sleep with and she's been sleeping with it ever since.
    
    For Christmas I gave her a Minnie Mouse pillow person - I like it
    better for her because it's flatter....To this day - she loves pillows-
    Any pillow - She pulls them off the furniture & beds and puts them
    on the floor, lays on them and says "Ni Ni" (nite nite)...
    
    

    
    
    My 11 month old son, Nicholas has not been sleeping through the
    night for the past month.  His bedtime is around 7:00-7:30 (more
    towards 7:30).  By the time I come home from work (around 5:45pm),
    we feed him, give him a bottle and by bedtime, he's really tired.
    He has been teething and the teething process hasn't been pleasant.
    He will not go to sleep without a bottle of juice or milk (I usually
    give him 3/4 water and 1/4 juice).  He'll go to sleep about 15 min.
    later.  Then he'll wake up once (if we're lucky) or twice or even
    three times during the nite.  He has just learned to stand so I'll
    go to his room and he's standing right up in his crib crying.
    The only way he will go to sleep is if we give him a bottle.  
    I've tried walking him, singing to him, rocking him, talking to him,
    and nothing works except for the bottle.  I've been giving him
    Infant's Tylenol before bedtime for his teeth but still, he refuses
    to sleep during the nite and sometimes I wonder if it's even his
    teeth.
    
    I'm 4 1/2 mos. pregnant and am tired and frustrated.  
    Also, I've been noticing that he hasn't been too interested in
    his eating his dinner (he loves the food because I've given him the same
    food for lunch and he chows it right down).  
    
    I'm not too enthused about giving him a bottle at nite in his
    crib because I think it's a bad habit (my husband thinks otherwise)
    but it's the only way he will sleep.  Lately, even with giving
    him the bottle, he'll be up two hours later crying again.
    
    Is Nicholas a good candidate for the Ferber method?  I'm ready to
    try anything at this point.
    
    I also think he has separation anxiety.  If I put him down (he can
    crawl very well and stand on his knees), he'll cry and he's fine
    as long as i'm holding him.  I wonder if I have two problems here.
    (Actually, three, he has a very bad temper).
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I'm at my wits end and
    am dying for a full nite's sleep.  :(
    
    Thanks for your help,
    Chris

	Sounds like he could have an ear infection.  The first two
	questions they ask at the doctor's office are "is he/she sleeping"
	and "is he/she eating".  Emily got an ear infection within one
	week of getting her teeth...

	Karen

    Another vote here for getting the ears checked.  When Russell was your
    son's age, I could tell if he had an ear infection if he didn't sleep
    through the night.  He also went through a pattern of 
    	1) heavy drool
    	2) cold of the week from daycare (from him being a walking petrie dish)
        3) whining/waking at night - ear infection
        4) after 10 days on meds - arrival of new tooth


    Russell rarely runs a temp. when his ears are infected and eats like 
    a little piglet, etc. Once or twice I didn't have the ears checked and
    he wound up with *very* painful infections.  

    marianne

    
    
    I took Nicholas yesterday to the dtr's as a follow-up to his prior
    ear infection.  She said his ears where fine but started him on
    Amoxicillan on a daily basis until April (since he gets ear infections
    a lot).  He has also been a little congested.  
    
    Guess I'm just going to have to hang in there since I can't figure
    out what his problem is.  Hope I can!
    
    chris

    
    Chris, this sounds exactly how Michael acted/acts when he was about
    that age and teething. Especially with his first 2 molars. Loss of
    appetite, change in sleep habits, wanting a bottle..  My notes are in
    here somewhere!  
    
    Have you considered trying some Benedryl at night before bed, maybbe
    that would help. Not forever, just for a few nights, Wendy Thomas
    suggested it to me, and it worked wonders for us. Also, how about those
    frozen teething rings. Michael was never interested in one of those
    until he started cutting his molars, then he went to town on them!
    Along with a couple of rings, I bought these 4" long "ice tubes" that
    have water inside that you can keep cold drinks cold with (put them in
    the glass like ice), and he loves em. They are long enough to hold
    onto, but not small enough to swallow. (like holding a popsicle without
    the mess and stick!). 
    
    Good Luck,
    Chris
    

    What time do your School age children go to bed??? 
    
    This has *sort of* been addressed, but I need a little guidance.
    
    What is an appropriate bedtime for my very active, just turned 6 year
    old?  We *start* him towards bed between 7:30 and 8:00, but lately
    thanks to disturbed schedules, asthma attacks, it's associated meds and
    a hospital stay due to the asthma, it's been sometimes as late as
    10p.m.!
    
    Usually by the time I get home, and dinner (bath, teeth, story,
    breathing treatments etc) is finished it is usually
    pushing 7:00p.m. and I just get an awful attack of mommy guilt by
    rushing him off to bed so soon after supper.  The other side is that
    I'd like some time to myself before I go to bed, not to mention the
    prep for the morning like lunches, making coffee, clothing prep etc.
    
    Although he *has* to be up between 6:45 and 7:00 in the morning, lately
    he's been getting up with my husband or just after he leaves, which is
    usually about 6:15 a.m.  I'm not sure he's getting enough sleep,
    especially considering all the colds and "bugs" he's been picking up
    lately.  Last fall we bought him his very own alarm clock(a big
    garfield head, the numbers are in his teeth, the nose is the alarm
    off-on button, the ear is the snooze button), and the rule
    is that he waits for Garfield to wake him up.  But the last few weeks
    it just hasn't been working.  We even took Garfield away for a couple
    days telling him that he didn't seem to need Garfield to wake him up.
    
    Nothing is working, even a joking threat of "don't bug mom until she's
    had her morning coffee".  (I'm a beast if someone bugs me before the
    coffee has kicked in!)
    
    Lyn
                                      

    We have bed time as a guideline in our house.  Sometimes the kids are
    too UP to sleep or whatever.  We do require that they be in bed by 8:00
    (unless something "special" is happening).  What time they go to sleep
    is up to them.  My oldest (7 1/2) will put his radio on "sleep" for
    about 15 minutes, although I suspect he never hears it go off.  My
    other (5 1/2) will toss a little in bed before he falls asleep.  
    
    I know they've been up too late if they show signs of:  tiredness,
    frustration, anger, etc.  My younger also gets circles under his eyes -
    my telltale sign that he needs more sleep. 
    
    I try to listen to them to determine if they are not getting enough
    sleep - me, I could sleep for 12 hours as long as they start after
    midnight. 
    
    If AJ's not "suffering" the next few days, try extending his bedtime to
    include some quiet reading, coloring, talking time.  He may go to bed
    quicker if he's more relaxed at sleep time.
    
    -sandy
    

    I don't have my Dr. Ferber book handy, but I seem to recall that kids
    of any age should get 11 hours sleep, therefore 8 p.m. to 7 a.m.  Many
    kids will wake up earlier and only get 10 hours (like my daughter
    Ilona, alias "Milton the Early Riser"), but I think it's best to have
    them in bed at 8 p.m. most nights.  Of course, one may slip this hour
    quite a bit for unusual nights or weekends.
    
    My friend Carol has 3 kids, age 9, 7, and 5, and they ALL go to bed at
    8.  Bedtime is nominally 7:45, but 8 is usually when they settle down. 
    
    L
    

     <<< Note 27.166 by TNPUBS::STEINHART "Back in the high life again" >>>
                            -< 11 hours is optimal >-

>    I don't have my Dr. Ferber book handy, but I seem to recall that kids
>    of any age should get 11 hours sleep, therefore 8 p.m. to 7 a.m.  Many
>    kids will wake up earlier and only get 10 hours (like my daughter
>    Ilona, alias "Milton the Early Riser"), but I think it's best to have
>    them in bed at 8 p.m. most nights.  Of course, one may slip this hour
>    quite a bit for unusual nights or weekends.
    
>    My friend Carol has 3 kids, age 9, 7, and 5, and they ALL go to bed at
>    8.  Bedtime is nominally 7:45, but 8 is usually when they settle down. 
    
>    L
 I think saying that "all kids should . . ." is a ridiculous statement 
especially for a doctor to make.  My 10 year old has never needed a lot of 
sleep.  He stopped napping early and requires less than eight hours of sleep 
to function well.  He has a 10 o'clock bedtime and gets up at 6.  My 5 year 
old needs more sleep and goes to bed at 8:30.  

I can't believe that any 9 year old goes to bed at eight.  What about homework, 
reading, etc?  My son has 1-2 hours of homework each day.  If I want him to 
get out and get some exercise its after school, which leaves homework for 
after dinner.  Ah well, each kid is different . . . 

I also don't think that is exactly what Dr. Ferber said.  He also talked about
sleep rhythms, etc. and the whole discussion was much more complex.  Addition-
ally, he mentioned how school schedules affect children's sleep patterns.  He
gave some general guidelines but I remember the amount of sleep needed ON
THE AVERAGE to decrease as the child got older.  I do remember him saying that
having the sleep period shifted from the optimum for a child who still got 
enough hours was as much a cause of sleep problems as not enough sleep.

My children, once they were school age, had an 8-8:30 bedtime until they were
about 10 years old.  Now my 12 year old has a 9:00 bedtime and the 14 year
old turns his lights off when he wants.  If they stay up too late and don't want
to get up the next morning, they know why :-) and they hear about it!  They
get up at 6:45.

They do their homework immediately after school and then can play until 
dinner time.  They also have other activities to do in this time (music
practice, sports, etc.) which they sometimes don't have time for.  Homework 
comes first.  After dinner, either they finish homework if it is a heavy night,
watch some tv with us, or read.  Sometimes we'll play a game or work on a 
special project or the computers.

One point, when we permitted the later bedtime, we did say that occasionally
we might want to watch something on television that we consider inappropriate
for them.  When this does happen, which isn't often, they can either watch
something else in the other room or read or do some other activities in their
rooms.  Of course this now happens less as they get older.

Cheryl

    I need to get some opinions on getting AJ, he's now 6 yrs, to sleep.
    
    Last night we did our usual routine which is after nightly routine he
    brushes his teeth washes his face and then we shut off the lights in
    the living room and we all watch the evening news together.  He first
    started out with his head in my husband's lap, the switched to my lap. 
    A few minutes later I noticed the chatter and movement had stopped, he
    had falled asleep, I mean dead to the world type sleep.  This was at
    least a half hour to an hour earlier than he usually goes to sleep.  We
    always do the quiet time before bed, but almost never get this result. 
    Should we continue this method if it works.  He's usually one of those
    up and down, get a drink go potty, sneak a toy into bed type kids.
    
    Also, should I be concerned that as he's falling asleep he seems to
    make jerking like movements.  He's always sort of "twitched" even since
    infancy, and my husband says I do it too sometimes especially when I'm
    over tired.  Does anyone else's kids twitch when falling to sleep.  He
    has been classed as very active, but does not meet the full criteria of
    a "true hyperactive" child.  Part of his bedtime problems stem from him
    not wanting to miss anything that goes on around him, and he has a lot
    of trouble with a short attention span.  Let's face it getting to sleep
    requires you to concentrate on relaxing and going to sleep, plus laying
    quietly.  Something he just doesn't do too well.
    
    Lyn

    Lyn,

    RE: the twitching.... my biggest kid, Steven my husband, twitches
    almost all night long.... he sometimes drives me up the wall with it! 
    It's just his muscles flexing and relaxing in a spastic way, either
    from being tired or dreaming... some nights are worse than others, but
    it never doesn't happen!  Sometimes if I rub his back he'll stop for a
    while, but I think this is because I am actually keeping him partially
    awake!  My son (not my husband child, so there are no tendencies carried
    on) sometimes twitches when he sleeps, and has for almost 20 years.

    So, don't worry about it.... AJ is fine!

    M-L

    BTW, our dog and 2 cats twitch ALL the time, one cat even swishes her
    tail completely from side to side... and she is sound asleep!
                                                      

I'm looking for some input and ideas to try to help solve my son's sleep 
problems.

Here's the background - Justin is 1 year old.  His birthday was three
weeks ago.  We have been VERY lucky until recently because he started
sleeping through the night at 6 weeks and except for only 2 or 3 occassions,
he's slept all night until he turned one.

I thought he was teething because he's got three of his bottom teeth and I
thought the 4th one would be in soon.  When he wakes up, he either starts crying
like he's in pain, or he just talks to himself for about an hour (while I lay
in my bed unable to sleep because I'm listening).  This eventually turns into
crying.  When I went in his room he would be curled up in a ball like he was
trying to sleep but couldn't.  I would pick him up and cuddle him for a little
while and put him back in his crib.  Sometimes this would work and he'd fall
asleep, but lots of times it would be quiet for about 20 minutes and then he'd
start crying again.  I'd let him cry for 5 minutes, and then again I'd go in 
and cuddle him and then put him back in his crib, and usually this time he'd 
go to sleep for the night.  All of this has been keeping me up almost every 
night between 1 1/2 and 2 hours.

Yesterday his daycare provider and I were talking about it and she mentioned
that this all started about the same time he switched from formula to milk.
We wondered if that had anything to do with it.  Maybe he's getting gas pains?
I called the doctor this morning and they said they doubt it because if the
milk was going to bother him there would be more evidence of it during the
day.  Other than being tired, he's been fine during the day.

The last couple of nights when he's cried and I went in his room he's been
sitting up, looking for me so now I'm wondering if he can't sleep and knows
Mama will come cuddle him and so he cries.

I haven't let him "cry it out" yet for a couple of reasons.  1.  I thought he
was in pain, and if he doesn't feel good, I don't have the heart. and 2.  My
husband is finishing up a very difficult course at school and also working
overtime so I feel it's crutial to let him sleep as undisturbed as possible.
Fortunately school ends in a couple of weeks.

I was thinking of keeping him up a hour past his bedtime tonight so he'll 
hopefully be too tired to wake up in the middle of the night.  

Any thoughts or suggestions?  I'm feeling exhasted and desparate for sleep.

Sorry this note is so long.

Gail

    
    Gail, we've never had any luck with the "staying up later, later sleep"
    phase. For us it just didn't work. No matter what time Mike went in, he
    was still up the same time later. 
    
    Just my .02 cents, I think he may be getting into a pattern now with
    you coming into him when he wakes during the night. You said you let
    him cry for 5 mins, then go in. Maybe you should try to extend that
    time you wait to say 2 extra minutes each time (ie: the ferber method
    for bedtimes). Say wait 7 minutes one night, then 9 minutes the next
    before you go in to comfort him.  And also, try not to take him out of
    his crib to comfort him, (as hard as it is)...try just getting him to
    lay back down while you rub his back. It may take a few times, but
    should start working once he realises you're not going to take him out 
    of the crib. It does get hard on the back leaning over (this from one
    who has "bulging" disks already!). 
    
    Also, if you think it may be the milk bothering him, try changing to
    some juice before bedtime and see if there is any difference.
    
    My son has always been a pretty good sleeper, but to this day, if he's
    teething or got a cold, we'll still have problems. (he's 17 mos)
    
    I remember just about the same scenario you are describing  happening
    to Mike at about 9 mos, and I just had to stop myself from running
    eight in to comfort him, and the behavior stopped. 
    
    Also, if it is teething, maybe a bit of Tylenol before bedtime might
    help.
    
    Good Luck, I can sympathize with you...
    
    Chris
    

    Please tell me if this is not logged in the right place, but I did a
    dir/title="Night" or "Dream" and there was nothing referring to kids
    at least in this volume. 
    
    Anyway....My daughter is almost 4 and goes to bed at 8:30 and as early
    as 5:00 am she is downstairs wandering around, I always hear the stairs
    creaking and go down asking her what she is doing. She usually says she
    is thirsty or has to go the bathroom. There is a bathroom right in my
    bedroom next to her room upstairs and I always keep a cup of water in 
    her bedroom. So there is absolutely no reason for her to be downstairs
    by herself.
    
    Now it has gotten to the point of getting up every hour or so with any
    excuse. Where's Daddy (he works nights), I just wanted to give you a kiss,
    I had a bad dream, I am hungry. Were talking 1 am and she's starving. I
    don't want to say "I think your just saying that because you wanted to
    stay awake" I cannot help but want to yell when I just drift off to sleep
    and awake to see her right in front of me. Not to mention that when she
    gets up she is loud or crying and wakes my 8 month old son right up in
    the next room.
    
    What I am thinking is she does not give herself a chance to even roll
    over and go back to sleep, she whips right out of bed. Because
    everytime I ask what the dreams were about she never can tell. Once
    in a while she has valid ones, but even then she never wakes up crying 
    like from a nightmare. I just feel it must be something emotional she
    is going through, maybe for this age it is normal, who knows. All I
    know is that it is getting worse. 
    
    I am going to mention it to her Pedi too, but was trying other places.
    
    Thanks for any feedback and listening
    
    Charlene

    Hi,
    
    You didn't mention if your daughter is still taking naps in the
    afternoon or not.  If she is, perhaps you could either have her
    stay up later at night or stop the naps unless she's really cranky
    without it.
    
    Good luck!
    

    Sorry, no she does not.
    
    So I would think she would be exhausted. 
    
    Charlene

    
    your pedi will have the best advice, but....
    
    1) could be she's just a light sleeper.  I remember I used to "walk the
    halls" in the wee hours.  Nowadyas I usually get by on 4-5 hours/night. 
    
    2) she's a little older than mine, but it MAY be she's having some
    emotional work she needs exatr time on.... have there been any changes
    in her life?  Even changes at daycare in her playmates' lives could be
    giving her things to think about and work out. 
    
    3) Ask your pedi about "Bach Flowers" hoeopathic remedies.   If he/she
    is open to this avenue it might provide some relief.  There are
    specific formulations that deal with sleeping difficulties. 
    
    Good luck! Nap when you can!
    
    Jamd

    HELP!
    
    I haven't been in this conference for a while, but we have a problem
    that's gotten totally out of hand and we don't know where to turn.
    
    First of all, lots has happened since I last entered anything in here. 
    We adopted a second baby boy, Andrew Lee, in September.  The problems
    we're having with Michael started before Andrew was born, so the new
    baby isn't the cause.
    
    Our problem is this:  Michael has insomnia.  He doesn't wake up all
    night (unless he's sick, which is understandable), and he doesn't get
    out of bed once he's in it, and he doesn't scream and cry at bedtime. 
    He just lies in bed and stares into space, sometimes for as long as
    three hours before going to sleep.  He will *not*, or cannot,
    communicate to us why he can't sleep.
    
    He is so tired, his eyes are hollowed out and he just drags around.  No
    matter how late he goes to sleep at night, he gets up at about the same
    time in the morning.  He appears to have no trouble at all taking a nap
    in the afternoon, but whether he naps for 15 minutes or three hours, he
    has the same insomnia when bedtime comes at night.
    
    The strangest thing about this is that it comes and goes in cycles. 
    Before last week, for about three weeks, Michael got up about 6:00,
    napped from 1pm till 3pm, then went to bed at 8 and was sleeping
    peacefully within 20 minutes or so.  We thought the problem was solved. 
    Then for no apparent reason, no change in his routine, this past week
    the whole insomnia thing started again, this time worse than it's ever
    been before.  He was awake till midnight Thursday night, so sleepy he
    was really pitiful, but unexplainably unable to go to sleep.
    
    We've tried everything we can possibly think of.  We've left a night
    light on in his room, and left the room dark.  We've stayed with him,
    and left him alone.  We've rocked him, and put him to bed without
    rocking.  We've read bedtime stories, allowed him to sit up and read a
    book for a while by himself, and done neither of the above.  We've
    adjusted bedtimes, adjusted nap times, and stuck to a strict schedule
    for weeks.  Nothing we've done seems to have any effect on these
    apparent cycles of insomnia.
    
    This has been going on for many months, and we thought surely he'd just
    grow out of it, but instead of getting better it's getting much worse. 
    We took him to a counselor for a while to be sure there wasn't some
    deep-seated emotional problem at work here, but she said he's a normal,
    extremely active little boy with a very healthy self-esteem.  She had
    no explanation whatever for the insomnia, and neither does our
    pediatrician.  We're considering a sleep disorders center now, but
    wanted to first inquire if anyone in PARENTING has experienced anything
    similar or has any ideas we haven't thought of.  Incidentally, Ferber's
    book doesn't address this specific problem at all.
    
    Anyone got any ideas?
    
    Steve

    What does he eat late at night?

    Is he active during the day, does he get enough exercise or
    does he lead a sedetary lifestyle.
    Maybe some days he just isn't tired.

    Congrats on the new baby, Steve.
    
    Since you've already had Michael checked out by a psychologist, I'd
    encourage the sleep disorder center.  He may very well be unable to
    articulate why he can't sleep and a behavioural approach that might
    teach him to relax and fall asleep would be just the thing.
    
    best of luck - it much be tough.
    

    <anonymous posting by moderator for for "Tina">

    	We have a six and half month old who is still not sleeping through
    the night and are looking for suggestions.  We're definitely open to
    Ferberizing, but have had a hard time deciding whether to do it since
    we're not sure why she's waking in the first place.  If there's a
    physical reason for waking, we don't want to Ferberize.

    	She usually wakes 3-4 times a night, each time with a medium to
    loud cry.  It's not a "I just woke up, I'm bored, now I think I'll
    start fussing".  His eyes are usually still shut tight when she starts
    crying.  The possibilities for discomfort that we think are either
    teeth, ear or stomach.  She's a tough one to diagnose.  She's had
    digestive problems since infancy (colicy, gassy, etc-prunes helped
    immensely), but that doesn't seem to bother her during the day now. 
    We've brought her in twice thinking it was possibly ears but they
    seemed to check out ok.   She's a drool king, his gums  are soft but
    nothing's popped through yet.  The doctor gave us children's advil to
    give her at night, but we're leary of giving her medication if we're
    not sure what it is.  In addition, you have to give it with food which
    means a bottle which we'd like to not start up.  

    Overall we're a little gun-shy since she's had a rough physical life
    since infancy.  It took us at least 4 months to figure out her stomach,
    then she got an ear infection, cold, then thrush! She usually needs
    help getting to sleep for naps, but not night time -  she goes in
    semi-awake and can get herself to sleep.  

    	Any suggestions or questions we should be asking ourselves?  Any
    idea on how to decipher whether it's physical pain that's waking her or
    just fussy baby?  Time to try Ferberizing?  

    
    I'd say it sounds like a little bit of both, need to Ferberize and
    possible teething. Have you tried the Advil at night to see if it
    works? I think you should give it a shot.   Also, what do you have to
    do to get her back to sleep each time? If you need to give her a
    bottle, you may want to just give her water, and eventually she'll
    realise all she'll get is water and won't bother waking you.
    
    Its amazing how much she sounds like my son Michael when he was that
    age (except for the ear infection) He was gassy/constipated from about
    3-5 weeks until 2-3 months, (we had to start prunes at 1 month), got 
    Thrush, and had cold after cold his whole 4th month.  FWIW, he cut his
    first tooth at 5 1/2 mos, so she may not be far behind.
    
    Good Luck,
    Chris
         

    
    Poor you!  You must be exhausted.
    
    My son, is 9 months old, and just started sleeping through the night
    about two weeks ago (So I can relate!)
    
    He was also colicy and has NOT been enjoying the teething process.
    I use a combo of the Ferber method and my own, which makes me feel I've
    attended to his potential physical needs, and yet also is heading him
    toward sleeping through the night.
    
    When Peter first cries, I go in, pick him up, check for diaper
    problems, teeth problems (I run my finger over his gums - if they're
    sore, he lets me know pronto!) etc.  Even it's none of the above, I
    will rock him for 10-15 minutes (Heck, I enjoy it too - who am I
    kidding!) 
    
    Afte that, it's Ferber time.  I tell him it's time for sleep, and put
    him back in thecrib, with an extra kiss and a hug, and leave the room.
    The first night we use a 10-10-15 minute cycle.  I *HATE* to hear him
    crying, so I clock watch and at 10 minues and 1/2 second, I'm back in
    the room.  Per Ferber, We talk for a minute or so, but he doesn't get
    out of bed... etc, etc.  The first night, it took 35 minutes (3
    cycles), the second/third night two cycles, the fourth FOUR cycles, and
    the fifth - he slept through!!
    
    So I modify it a bit - do what feels right to you.
    Another thought - I use Tylenol for the teething problem.  Maybe you'd
    feel better about tylenol than Advil.  I used to not want to give the
    kids anything, but then I compared their situation to how *I* would feel
    if I had an ache - I'd want some relief.
    
    Good Luck!
    Jamd
     

    Steve, you don't say how old Mike is???????  He must be quite young
    from the tone of your note.  Have you have him checked for physical
    medical problems rather than just psychological?
    
    If he wern't draggy I would be inclined to say that he just doesn't
    need alot of sleep, but the draggyness convinces me otherwise: Some
    thing is going on which needs 'fixing'. 
    
    I suggest you have him checked out by an M.D. as well as psychiatrists
    to be sure there is not any underlying medical condition.
    
    Jeff

    Steve,
    
    It's been a while since you entered the note about Michael's insomnia,
    but I haven't had a chance to read much in this file for a while so 
    I'm just getting to it now.  
    
    I, too, laid awake every night for 3-4 hours before finally falling 
    asleep, and would be EXHAUSTED the next day.  It started, for me, 
    around second grade and continued for a few years.  Looking back, 
    it never even occurred to me to mention it to my parents.  I got the
    vague feeling that they would be angry to find I was still awake, so
    when they looked in to check on me, I would close my eyes and pretend to
    be asleep.  
    
    Anyway, what I realized as I got older was that it was exactly their
    checking on me that was keeping me awake.  I would go to bed around 
    8:00.  My father would open the door and look in on my sister and I
    when he went to bed, around 11:00-midnight.  Even though he was quiet
    about it, I was a light sleeper and it was just enough to slightly
    wake me.  So, over time, I just subconsciously started staying awake
    until after the expected "disturbance" was past.  I'm not saying this
    is logical, but it was like I was waiting for the noise to come and go
    before I could let myself drift off.  
    
    Occassionally my father would be out of town on business and my mother
    would check on us, and she went to bed a lot earlier than he did. 
    Those nights I got to sleep a lot earlier, because the disturbance of
    being checked on was over with earlier.  
    
    Looking back, I don't know why I never told my parents that their
    checking in on me was bothering my sleep.  I guess I needed the
    security of being checked on, but didn't like the disturbance of 
    being checked on.  Such a simple solution would have been to leave my
    door open when I went to bed in the first place.  
    
    Maybe you should try (I know it's hard) not to check on Michael for a 
    few nights.  And tell him that you are not going to come into his room
    or look at him unless he calls you.  It's a long shot, I know, but 
    possibly worth trying.
    
    Jane  
        

I have a question.

We have a 9 month old son who still does not sleep thru the night.

He had colic for the first 3/4 months and as a result got a lot of attention,
plus the fact that my wife was nursing him every few hours - day & night.

He is now a very healthy and happy baby, but the night is rough.  We leave
a dimmed light on in his bedroom.

He goes to bed at 8pm and he screams for up to 30 mins, during this period
we usually try to comfort him, give him his bottle and he sometimes watches
his "mickey_mouse" movie ( the thingy that reflects on the ceiling).

After that he will wake up around 11/11:30 - for 30 mins and he will scream
until he gets attention & bottle etc.  He wakes again around 3/3:30 - same
as above - screams until he gets attention.  Finally he will wake up at
5/5:30 am - same situation.  He has been teething recently, but really it
wasn't much different from usual pattern.

We have tried to leave him ( Faberize ?) him, but after 15 mins his screams
are hysterical and he is ( or appears to be ) hyperventilating.  Also we
have concluded that the longer we leave him crying, the harder it is to get
him back to sleep; so now its a sleepy rush to his room to get a bottle in
his mouth inside 1 min ... and maybe he'll fall back to sleep.

Anyway, neither my wife nor I can continue with this, we are wrecked. Can 
anyone offer advise ?, is it realistic ( and fair ) to leave him cry for
30 m ins ?, 1 hour - where and when does one draw the line ?

Thanks in advance ..

Gerry C

have you tried the age old "warm milk"....seriously, there is a chemical produced
when milk is warmed that is a natural relaxent, don't remember what it is called.

michael

    Ferber's method is not just "let them cry".  It's more like Ethernet:
    keep re-trying, at ever-longer intervals (e.g vist the crying child
    every 5 minutes, being boring and saying nothing.  Pat child's back
    and re-cover with blankets, then leave. Repeat until child falls
    asleep.  Next night, visit every 10 minutes, and so on).
    
    But if you start you have to be _determined_ to finish, or you'll have
    a harder time the second time you try.
    
    I recommend two things:
    
    1.	First get real physical problems, like an ear infection or
    	hunger, ruled out (does Tylenol fix this?  Does filling him
    	up just before bedtime fix it?).
    
    2.	Buy the Ferber book and read it before you apply "Ferberization".
    
    Finally, if you arrange things so that each parent gets a full night's
    sleep every other night, you'll feel a lot better.  It's worth sleeping
    on the living room floor with ear plugs, if that's what it takes!
    
    		-John Bishop

    I totally agree with the Ferber method.  It has worked for us.  We just
    had to re-Ferberize our 16 month old son because we had gotten into
    a bad rut over the winter.  He had many ear infections, colds and the 
    flu and I had gotten back into the habit of giving him a bottle to get
    him back to sleep.  Well, I finally had had enough when he was starting
    to be up for 1.5 hrs a night.  It only took us one night.  He cried for
    about 1.5 hours and my husband went in first after 20 minutes then just
    about every 15 minutes, didn't pick him up just stayed with him a few
    minutes and talked to him.  He finally settled down and we are going
    on about two weeks now sleeping 10.5 hours a night!!! It's been 
    wonderful!! He's going in around 7:30 and sleeps until 6:00 0 6:30
    I'll take that over waking up thru the night!!  I sometimes hear him wake 
    up for a minute but he can now get back to sleep on his own.  
    
    It's very hard to listen to them when they are hysterical.  Dr. Ferber
    talks about if they cry to the point of them vomiting then you need
    to go in clean them up and continue.  It should get easier each night.
    
    I would definetly read Dr. Ferber's book "Solve Your Childs Sleep
    Problems".  
    
    Hang in there,
    
    Kelly
    

    Ferber works with some kids and not with others. I have one of
    each. We Ferberized my son but it never really took, so we 
    devised another strategy with him. My daughter got the idea 
    right away and is a great sleeper now. We did have to re-Ferberize
    her a couple of times, but it was easy.
    
    It's definitely worth a try if you read the book and believe in
    the assumption behind it (that kids should be able to go to sleep 
    by themselves and stay in bed quietly all night).
    
    Lucy

    
    what was the non-Ferber strategy you used on your son?
    
    Jamd

    When my son was about 3 he went through a phase of getting out of his
    bed all the time, refusing to fall asleep unless someone was with him
    (many times a night), etc. We did the whole Ferber door-closing thing,
    kept it up for nearly two hellish weeks and really meant it, then gave
    up when we realized that it was the wrong thing at the wrong time for
    Daniel.   
    
    So we made a deal with him that if he fell asleep in his own bed, then
    if he woke up later on he could come sleep on the floor of our bedroom.
    He did this almost every night for about two years. Several months ago
    he went back to sleeping all night in his own bed with no problems. He  
    still wakes up and gets out of bed but doesn't resist going back.
    
    This is a child whose worst fear is being alone. He wants company in
    nearly everything he does, and sleeping is no different for him.
    
    Lucy

    
    
    	Just a comment on the Ferber method:
    
    	I used to feel SO GUILTY because I rocked my daughter to sleep for
    naps and at night.  (Still do and she's 13 months.)  I used to be
    almost secretive about it since I feared other mothers would think I
    was doing a terrible disservice to my daughter by not letting her fall
    asleep on her own.
    
    	But recently I read an interview with Ferber (Boston Globe Magazine
    maybe?) and he said that if your child sleeps through the night (mine
    does), can get back to sleep if he/she wakes up during the night (mine
    can), or if you're not bothered by getting up (okay, so this  I mind!
    :-) then DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.  Rock, use a blanket, bottle, or
    whatever.  So I finally don't feel guilty anymore!
    
    	This may sound silly, but seriously, some people criticized my
    rocking her, and it really made me doubt that it could be a good thing
    to do.  But for us, it works.
    
    	On the occasions she does wake up at night and doesn't go to sleep
    herself (hey, she's not perfect!)  rocking gets her back to sleep in no
    time at all.
    
    	Whatever works, I guess!
    
    	Justine 
                                                      

    Lucy - 
    
    Thanks for the ideas.  My 3 year old sounds much the same - she's been
    a people person from day one.   
    
    re-.1.. I'm glad to hear about someone else who feels a little guilty
    about not setting absolute discipline (that's how it feels to me) My
    husband and I disagree on this, so we have come to a compromise:  With
    the 3 yr old, we let her fall asleep in our bed, then transfer her to her
    own when we go to bed.  She knows this will happen, and nearly always
    finishes the night in her own bed.   OUr 9 month old is in a sittnig
    room just next to our bed, and I think she likes the nearness of
    someone else. 
    Our nine month old I rock the first time if he wakes up, but if it
    looks like he's up for partying, (ie, HI MOM! LET'S PLAY!!!)  we do a 
    10-10-10 cycle ala Ferber. I worry about not being consistent, but 
    sometimes it seems he just needs a little extra cuddle. 
    

    Jamd (The guilty one)

    
    HI,
    
    Anyone help with this one??
    
    I have a 18 month son who will go to sleep 95% of the time at 7:30pm
    but gets up three to four times a night for approximately 1 pint total
    of milk -  eg two bottles worth.  He is not awake for very long - 5
    mins or so but this is annoying.
    
    Up to approximately 1.5 weeks ago he only woke up once maybe twice for
    half a pint - is he going through a growth spurt or I am giving in to
    him too easily.
    
    He sleeps in with me as I am a single parent and have allowed this to
    happen??.   I am just worried that he won't be able to ever go in his
    own room - which incidently I have newly decorated for him.  I am not
    going to even try for the next year or so but wonder whether I will be
    able to do this or should I try now!!
    
    I am also living with my parents who are pensioner age, and would not like
    to cause any problems eg screaming etc as this is not fair to them.
    
    Regards 
    
    Sue 
    

    Please see a similar discussion (although about a baby) in notes
    199.25-199.33.  You may find something useful there.
    
    Laura

    [the following assumes you do not have central air conditioning]
    
    I have an 18 month old at home, and am wondering:
    
    Do you try to keep your baby cool during nap time and at night during
    the summer? [maybe there is an argument not to, if they don't
    have a blanket on top, are not "spoiled" by having airconditioning
    in the first place, etc]
    
    Do you put a room Air conditioner in your baby's room window? If so,
    what about the baby monitor (I note that baby monitors pick up the
    AC noise too well, and thus drowning out any crying that may
    occur).
    
    Do you move your baby into your room for those hot/sticky summer
    nights (with AC), leaving the baby's room un-airconditioned?
    
    

    IF the baby can "sweat" then they can cool themselves.  My son (at age
    2 months) did not sweat very well, so I had to cool bathe often, and
    even drive around in the A/C car for a bit.  However, at the age of 18
    months, I wouldn't worry unelss it was unbearable even for you.   Here
    in New England we can get pretty steamy days/nights.  I wouldn't
    necessarily put an AC in the baby's room, but a fan would usually work
    well - just to keep the air moving.  Most kids can sleep thru anything. 
    Mine usually did!  I remember a few years back we had such a hot summer
    ('87 I think) that we all slept in the livingroom with the AC on - and
    I stayed in there during the day with the kids.  This wek on for a few
    days in August.  I'm glad we havaen't had them that bad since!!!
    
    -sandy
    

    Try moving to Yorkshire! :-}
    
    Andy

    We have always kept the kids cool.  Even though they may "sleep" we
    found that they never slept "well", and the next day everyone was
    grumpy.  They also don't tend to "cool down" as easily as I might, so
    they've been given the preference for the cool nights.  I don't think
    it's spoiled them, because during the day, they can stand it a LOT
    hotter than I can - it just helps them sleep better, and improves
    everyone's mood a lot.

    I'm somewhere in between. I don't use a room air conditioner in my
    kids' room, but I do use a fan. I set it up as an exhaust fan so that
    it draws cool air from the other side of the house.
    
    If it's really, really hot, we set up a window air conditioner so that 
    it cools their room and our room (although the unit is not actually in 
    either bedroom.) This way no one sleeps in a draft.
    
    Lucy

    We have ceiling fans in both bedrooms - the kids are not able to reach
    them, which limits accidents, and the cooling effect is tremendous.
    Both kids end up with blankets on, even on stuffy nights.
    
    

  A side benefit we found to ceiling fans with light units, and only 1
  switch on the wall, is that we can switch off the light, leave the fan on
  and they can't continually turn the light off and on when they are
  supposed to be going to sleep.
  
  We're in Atlanta and have ceiling fans in every room but the kitchen (and
  garage).  The a/c helps, but the fan really does a good job at night.
  
  Dave

    
    My almost 18 month old son has been waking up as early as 5:15 the last
    few weeks!  We have tried letting him cry and just going in to cover
    him up but once he's awake he's ready to go.  I think the birds are
    waking him up because over the weekend one of the mornings was kind of
    rainy and the birds weren't chirping yet.  Any suggestions?  Should we
    run a fan to cover up the bird noise?  Or just live with it.  He goes
    in around 7:30 and sleeps all night (finally!!!).
    
    Any suggestions would be great!
    
    Kelly
    (yawn!)
    

    
    	We've put a few books in Spencer's crib and often when he wakes up
    in the morning, we can hear him reading his books (he laughs at the
    funny parts) for up to one hour. This is especially nice on teh
    weekends.
    
    	I would not use additional noise to cover up the birds, what a
    lovely sound your son would be missing.
    
    			Wendy

    Lindsay is 17 months and has been up every night for weeks now...all
    4 of her eye(?) teeth are coming in together.......1:00, 4:00, 5:00
    
    His teeth maybe???

    Kelly,
    
    Does your son take a nap, too?  How long?  At about 18 months, my 
    son was sleeping a total of 13 hours per day.  So if you say your
    son is now sleeping 7:30 pm - 5:15 am, that's about 10 hours right
    there.  If he is also taking a very long nap, that might explain
    why he's getting up so early.  Maybe he just doesn't need any more
    sleep.  
    
    Maybe try keeping him up until 8:00 pm and see if that makes a 
    difference in how late he sleeps the next morning?
    
    Jane

When Elise was cutting her two year molars, someone
suggested to me to give her Tylenol at bedtime, rather
than waiting for her to wake crying.  She said she
found that kids would sleep all the way thru if they
could get comfortable right away.  She has no kids of
her own, but does daycare and lots of babysitting.

I tried it, and it seemed to work.  I have no
definitive data, but I plan to try it on my second.
(She finally has a definite lump where her lower
right incisor will be...)

Pat

	Pat,

	I've done the same when Emily's having a rough time with
	the teething.  It doesn't always take her through the night,
	but usually does the trick.

	Karen

    My 18 month old also started waking up at 6 lately rather than her
    normal 7 - 7:30.  My solution was to pull down the shades in her room. 
    Now that the time has changed it starts getting light outside much
    earlier.

    
    Hi,
    
    re:- note 200.
    
    Since I inserted this note to say that I have had problems with my son
    waking at 5:15am have not had any further problems.
    
    He wasn't distressed at any time and seemed full of beans when he woke.
    I unfortunately wasn't.   
    
    Lately he has not been getting up as much at night either.  I believe
    that maybe he was just going through a time when he didn't need as much
    sleep and he seems to have got over it.
    
    Do you think that your childs sleep pattern has anything to do with
    your own.  I personally was never up very early ie before 6:00am as a
    youngster.  Sleeping for approximately 10 to 11 hours when in my teens
    and early twenties.  My son seems to be doing much the same in getting 
    up at around 7:30am.  He seems to be very much like me when I was younger - 
    according to my mum anyway.
    
    He only has one half hour nap during the day sometime between 12:00 and
    1:00pm.   
    
    What do you think?
    
    Sue
    
    
    I am very lucky with him, although he does get up a couple of times
    during the night he is only up briefly and generally seems to go back
    to sleep again.
    
    

    
    Thanks for all your input.  I have tried most all your suggestions.  I 
    guess I'll just have to hang in there.  This morning my husband went
    in to him at 5:30 when he woke up and tried to get him to lay back
    down.  Well, my son did not like that at all...after Dad left he 
    climbed out of his crib for the VERY first time!!   I heard some
    banging around in the crib and thought he had fallen inside the crib
    and when I got up to look he was running out of his room!!! I guess
    now we have a new problem to deal with.  Hopefully, (wishful thinking)
    he won't do it again for a while.
    
    thanks a bunch,
    
    Kelly
    
         

    
    
    Hi,
    
    I had a similar problem with Jamie when he was approximately 9 months
    old he managed to hoist himself from his cot over onto my bed as this
    was next to him.  Since then he has refused to go into his cot - ie he
    would persistantly climb out.
    
    As long as nothing in the room can hurt him maybe giving his a few toys
    dotted around might help with keeping him amused for a while to let you
    sleep in to say approximately 6:15am or so.
    
    regards
    
    Sue
    

    HELP!!  What do I do with a 6.5YEAR old who is waking one to two times
    per night?  This is third time in Three nights.  It is very obvious
    that he is exhausted, and probably simply from just not sleeping well. 
    I saw that others are having trouble with heat, fans etc but with
    infants.  We have left both his windows and shades open about 1/4 of
    the way, I have been shutting the shades down when I get up at 5a.m. so
    he won't get daylight in his face before he's supposed to get up at
    7:00.
    
    The night before I think he was awakened by an animal crying outside,
    he was in our bed once around 3:30 and when I got up he was asleep on
    the couch.  He actually seemed proud of himself that he had solved his
    own problem without waking us up.  I have mixed feelings...  Last night
    he crawled into bed, on my side verrrry quietly and went to sleep.  I
    wasn't really aware of his presence until he started with the knees and
    elbows in my back (he's a verrrry restless sleeper anyway).  I ask him
    why and all I get is "I had a bad dream", but somehow I don't buy it,
    he sort of knows all the "right and expected" answers to give adults.
    
    I really don't want to resort to locking his door, or giving him
    tylenol or other medication to help him sleep, but this is soooo
    unusual for him, I'm at a loss.
    
    In response to a couple back, we did buy an AC unit for his room only,
    but that was on the advise of his asthma doctor.  I think it cools the
    room too much, so I have a small oscilating fan on his bureau, I just
    put it on low just enough to move his air.  We didn't put the AC unit
    in at all last summer, we in New England remember how few really hot
    days we had last summer.  this summer is still not here enough to
    decide.  Ceiling fans are a nice option, we did have one until we moved
    him into his own room.  But his current room has no ceiling power. 
    Unless his asthma gets way out of control we'll try to get away with
    the fan only this summer.
    
    Lyn

re:                      <<< Note 27.219 by SALES::LTRIPP >>>
                   -< he's 6.5 and up several times/night! >-

    <I ask him
    <why and all I get is "I had a bad dream", but somehow I don't buy it,
    <he sort of knows all the "right and expected" answers to give adults.
    
    I wouldn't discount the bad dream so quickly.  We had a sleeping problem
    with our son after a fire safety program at school and after a double
    earthquake last year.  At AJ's age even the news can be scary.  

    Rochelle


    P.S. Our Sean (8) often gets up before dawn and sleeps on the couch.
         I haven't given it a second thought....should I?

    In reply to Cathy's note, entered with the Toddler Bed notes ...
    
    With mine, they never tried to get out of bed.  They'd wake up, and sit
    and call for someone to take them out of bed.  But they never tried to
    climb out of the crib either ....  Of course, do realize that once you
    say "It's okay, why don't you just get up and come out", they won't
    ever stay in again (-:
    
    Too bad you can't keep him in the crib longer - he sounds like he's one
    of those children who need a close eye all the time, and him
    "wandering" could be dangerous.
    
    On a related note, my boyfriend's son ALWAYS climbs out of the playpen. 
    If he does it when we're awake, we tell him NO! and make him go back in
    until we come get him.  He understands he's not supposed to be out. 
    When we're asleep, the first thing he does is come into our room once
    he's "free".  I think he just KNOWS that he shouldn't be out, and wants
    to make sure he's not going to get in trouble.
    
    

    Lyn,
    
    A thought for your son .... if I sleep with an oscillating fan, it
    wakes me up all night.  I'm better off with a fan blowing straight on
    me or nothing at all.  Even if the oscillating fan never "hits" me, the
    changes in noises in the room (from when it swings from one side to the
    other), disturbs me enough to wake me up.  It always feels like
    someone's there.
    
    Maybe try leaving it steady, or tell him it's okay to shut off if it's
    bothering him??  

My 8-month-old baby sleeps with us in our king-size bed.  This is
out of choice, and it's been working well for us.  I have a few
questions to those of you who have successfully pursued "shared
sleeping" or "the family bed."

-- How do you deal with your baby when he or she is old enough to
crawl?  The baby's a fairly sound sleeper and doesn't wiggle around
in her sleep.  There are some nights lately, though, when
we seem to fall asleep before she does. My fear is that once she can
crawl (which she's threatening to do) she'll fall out.  We do have 
Fisher-Price child rails on both sides, but it's not protected like 
a crib.  I'm contemplating putting the mattress on the floor; that 
way she'll only be 6 inches from the floor. Ideas?

-- The baby still has nighttime nursings.  Up until a few weeks ago,
she nursed to sleep at 10, then once around 3, then at 5:30 before I
got up.  (She then sleeps 'til 8.) She'd also nurse twice each evening. 
Lately, though, she's not much interested in more than one evening nursing, 
probably because she's eating more solids and has so many more exciting things 
that interest her!  She's also nursing more at night, though. I don't wake 
up for all this, but I'd say she sometimes snacks 2 or 3 times 
a night now, instead of the 1.  Those of you who did nighttime nursings:  
did you experience this too?  I'm also wondering if it's because the
weather's getting pretty hot at night. 

    
    do babies sleep more in the heat of summer? In Colorado Springs we've
    been having steady 90 degree days, and the babies (10 months) take 3
    1/2 hour naps in the day! Unprecedented, they used to take a couple of
    1/2 hour naps. They are also sleeping in later, I missed my playtime
    this morning they slept so late 8-(((((((((((((
    
    Thanks ! Simon

    
    	Growth spurt.  Are they eating alot also?  Just when you've got
    the routine down, babies change them.

My daughter (2 1/2) would not really go to sleep until 9:00 or 9:30...she's
gone or fell to sleep around 7:30-8:00 the last couple of weeks....90's and
high humidity.....maybe we have something here?

/mtb

    Heat and humidity can make anyone lethargic (at least it affects
    me).Neel (14 months) sleeps more on hot days and eats less. I confirmed
    with his pedi that heat was the culprit and not a cold.
    
    Shaila

I dunno, Simon.  Justin's been sleeping *less*, but then he might be
teething or something.

      Carol

	Emily's been napping less, which I think is related to the heat
	(waking up because she's hot).  The side affect is a little extra
	sleep at night.

	Saturday night (after a few days away and *very* very short naps),
	Emily slept from 8:30 to 10:00 a.m.!  Mommy and Daddy slept in, too!

	Karen

    
    
    	Since there are 229 replies here, I think I'm better off
    	just asking this outright as opposed to searching for
    	a reply.  (8
    
    	I'm a single parent with a two year old daughter.  When
    	she went off the pacifier it was sheer hell trying to
    	get through the night and more often than not, I'd bring
    	her into bed with me (GASP.. I know it's a cardinal sin)
    	since we're living in a 1BR place.
    
    	Now she's getting into the habit of sleeping with me 
    	*every* night.  I took down the crib a couple weeks ago	
    	because she certainly wasn't using it.  She does have
    	a fettish of sleeping sideways and I think that's part
    	of the reason she'd wake during the night.  She couldn't
    	turn sideways in a crib.
    	
    	In any event - should've/could've/would've behind - has
    	anyone found successful ways of transitioning a child
    	from a parents bed to their own "big" bed at an age
    	as young as two where they understand and welcome it??
    
    	Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  I want
    	to break this before it gets to be even MORE of a habit.
    	
    	/Kim

    First off, Kim all habits are HARD to break.  Make it an exciting thing
    to do for her - put a bed up with her choice of sheets, etc and really
    make it into a big deal.  Unfortunately, you will probably just have to
    tell her "no" and keep moving her back to her own bed.  It may take
    while, but it can be done.  Only question is who can last longer - the
    one crying and fuming or the one listening!!
    
    Good luck....
    
    -sandy
    

    
    If you can make her place HERS - the bigger of a deal, the better..
    then, what I've found helpful is to plan for a few uncomfortable nights
    sleeping right next to her new place - on the floor beside her.  This
    gets her out of your bed. (I actually LIKE sleeping on the floor so
    this has worked well for me) 
    
    Jamd
    

re: .230

See also Parenting V3, note 72.

I would also suggest you scan the previous 229 replies.  Depending on what 
you decide to do, some of the previous notes may help you.

You haven't said WHY you want to move your child from your bed.  If there is 
no reason, other than "it's the right thing to do," you may want to read note 
27.75 for a perhaps unconventional but interesting view.  If you decide to 
move your child to her own bed, then I'd suggest the Ferber book that's 
mentioned in one of the previous notes.

Clay

>I would also suggest you scan the previous 229 replies.  Depending on what 
>you decide to do, some of the previous notes may help you.

    	I'll have to try and look through them offhours.  There's
    	just too many to try and do it now. (8
    
>You haven't said WHY you want to move your child from your bed.  If there is 
>no reason, other than "it's the right thing to do," 
    
    	Few reasons actually.  One reason is because I feel she's
    	getting to the point that she can't go to sleep without
    	me there.  "Hold my hand" she says.  There aren't enough
    	hours in the day for me to do other things so I'd like
    	to be able to do them after she's gone to bed - dishes,
    	picking up, whatever.  Right now we go to bed at the same
    	time regardless of whether I'm tired or not because I want
    	to take advantage of the situation.  I do end up falling
    	asleep myself eventually.  Thirdly, she hogs the bed!!!
    	(8
    
    	/Kim

    It's 2:00am and my body has just fallen into a deep sleep (do I even
    know what a deep sleep is anymore?).  My alarm clock just went off,
    except the noise is not the usual ding ding ding.  What my brain is
    trying to register is a high pitched scream, while my body was already
    one step ahead and had flung itself out of the bed.
    
    Chelsea's awake.  I tell myself it could just be a nightmare, teething,
    a late night poop....lets sit it out for a few and see if she settles
    back in.  Well the crying continues for fifteen minutes working its way
    into a much more serious tone.  Time to go take a look and see what has
    gotten my daughter up at this wee hour of the morning.
    
    I open the door to her room and there she sits in her crib, tears
    pouring down that little face and arms outstretched in the dark towards
    me.  How is it that at two in the morning and in this state of upset,
    she looks absolutely adorable to me.  I on the other hand look like a
    zombie that the cat just dragged in for a midnight snack.
    
    Well I lay her down on the floor and do the quick three point check. 
    First the diaper, dry as the desert, but we will put another one on
    since we have come this far.  Must be the teeth, two top molars and a
    eye tooth have been possessing my daughter's moods with a demon of
    unrelenting pain.  I grab the Tylenol and watch her hungrily suck the
    medication down while her eyes try to adjust to the dark.  For good
    measure its a double swipe of the Oragel until the Tylenol kicks in.
    
    We snuggle up in the rocking chair and she settles into my chest.  I
    tap the cassette player and on comes the music from her Loveabyes tape. 
    The melody sweetly sings out words about God blessing me with this
    special gift from heaven above.  I sigh....Chelsea sighs.  Back and
    forth we rock and I nuzzle my chin into the softness of her silky hair. 
    Fifteen minutes later the tape clicks off and my daughter is limp with
    that heaviness that can only be from one in a sound sleep.  Gently I
    lay her down into the crib.  Silkies on each side of her and the binky
    in her mouth, she is peaceful into dream land.
    
    It's 2:40am and I'm out on the patio gazing up at the stars.
    
    Thank you God for my baby daughter.  For fourteen months of treasured
    moments, be they the good ones; those little smiles, the first words,
    gestures of love for her Mommy and Daddy.  Thank you for even the
    not-so-good moments.  Three months of colic, watching all those first
    boo-boo's and not being able to prevent them.  The never ending
    teething and the overwhelming new feelings of wanting to protect this
    precious gift you've blessed our life with from any harm that might come
    her way. 
    
    I'm not sure anymore what my life consisted of before Chelsea.  I only
    know now that each day is filled with love and joy.  I accept the many
    challenges this child brings into our days and am grateful for all the
    new lessons that we are given thru her.
    
    It's 3:00am and it't time to try and get some sleep (do I remember how
    to do that?).  Daddy rolls over and mumbles something like "was it
    teeth?"..."yes Daddy, it was teeth".  Could have been anything, but the
    plain and simple fact of it is, whe woke up and needed me.  I am there
    for her tonight and all the tomorrow's ahead.  Sure I need sleep, air
    to breath and water for my body; but none of these things would mean
    much to me without my precious baby daughter.  For whatever life was
    before her, it could not possibly be as wonderful as it is tonight (and
    tomorrow) with her.
    
    Thank you God for making me a Mommy.  I am forever grateful that you
    picked out this special little girl for us and I will treasure every
    moment that we share together.
    
    ...Lori (a.k.a. Mommy)
                                     

    re -.1
    
    That was absolutely beautiful and so close to my heart.  Thanks for 
    sharing it. 
    
    lori  

    re: 27.235
    
    	That was so so so beautiful!  You brought tears to my eyes and your
     	words warmed my heart!

    Lori,
    
    Thanks for putting it all into perspective.
    
    I hope you keep a book of letters like that
    for Chelsea so she can read them when she 
    gets older and understand how very special
    she is to you.
    
    		Linda

    Lori,
    
    A Mommy's feelings put into words most eloquently and preserving the
    deepest feelings.
    
    Shaila

    
    
    our first real sleep problem in 11 months!
    
    For the past 3 nights Heather has been really acting up at bed time.
    She screams and wails like she's in terrible pain. In takes a lot of
    rocking and cuddling to her to sleep. The last two nights she's woken
    up screaming and wailing again. Again, takes a lot of effort to get her
    to sleep, often 3 tries, everytime her head hits the pillow she's off
    again!
    
    During the day she is a wonderful happy little baby, its only at
    bedtime. We haven't tried tylenol yet, she has two upper teeth and two
    lower teeth, baby orajel helps a little, no sore tush. The only theory
    is was have been kind of lax at letting them sleep in our bed, but why
    the bedtime tantrums?
    
    Any thought! Help! Simon

    My Sammy has been doing this on and off lately too.  Unfortunately if
    she doesn't go to bed right off - she's up..there's no calming her
    down.  One night I worked at it for 4 hours before I gave up.  I figure
    this is because she just got back from vaca for 3 weeks with her
    grandparents.  (she's 20 months).  
    
    I figure if she needs the comforting I have to be there - but she
    doesn't get to leave her room, which usually ends up being what she
    really wants to do!
    
    -Andrea
    

    
    if it's cropped up suddenly, maybe it's an ear infection.

    
    twas an ear infection! Yeah! The not knowing is worse than any of the
    effects.
    
    thanks for the thoughts!
    
    Simon

Jessica, who is 29-months-old, has been sleeping in her own room in a 
regular bed for about 2 months now. She made the transition quite easily
from the crib only sleeping in the crib less than a week once we moved her
and Brad out of the nursery and into their own rooms.  Over the last week,
she has absolutely refused to sleep in the bed and insists on sleeping in
the crib which was still set up in her room.  I've tried to figure out what
the problem is, but I'm coming up empty. There has been 1 major change in
that my sitter, Jess, left us last Wednesday and we started a new sitter
today, but Jessica started this behavior before Jess left, so I don't think
it's that.  

I keep trying to sell her back on the bed, but I'm having no luck. She just
won't stay in it, and climbs out screaming and carrying out as soon as 
I put her in it.  I did notice that she also doesn't necessarily want to
stay in her crib when it's time to go to bed, but although she cries, she
does eventually calm down, lie down, and go to sleep.  I'm starting to
wonder if she just doesn't want to go to bed (which is not an option).  I
don't know what to do, and I'm worried that this behavior will continue 
through next week when my husband and I are away on a cruise for the week
and my Mom and Dad have the kids. I'm not looking forward to putting my 
folks through these tantrums, but I'm at a loss.

Suggestions?

Cathy

    
    Is it not an option to allow her to sleep in her crib? 
    This almost sounds as if its one of those battles that's
    not worth fighting and/or it will resolve itself with
    time.    
    
    Carol

    I am having the same problem with Samantha.  (23 months)  She
    started climbing out of her crib and WONT stay in it so I have
    put her in a big bed...Now she won't go to sleep - has to lay
    on the couch and fall asleep with mom AND dad right there....
    
    And she's waking up at least twice a night...She usually goes
    back to bed pretty easy - I just go lay with her and she's out...
    BUT..the second time she wakes up is usually around 4:00 and I
    bring her into bed with me.... (bad mommy...)...
    
    I'm sooo tired -- I don't know what else to do!!!
    
    I'll take suggestions - and for me, the crib is not an option because
    she won't stay in that either...

                      <<< Note 27.244 by DELNI::GIUNTA >>>
                        -< she won't sleep in her bed >-


Hi Cathy,

	Here are my suggestions in order:

		1. Let her sleep in the crib.

		2. Make sure she has a night light

		3. Let her sleep in Brad's room.

	My eight year old has caused us more sleepless nights than
	we can shake a stick at.  He's woken us up ONE time in the 
	last 1.5 years, only because we let him sleep in his 3 year
	old sister's room.  When she isn't there, we let him sleep
	on the floor of the baby's room. 

Rochelle

Letting her sleep  in the crib is an option for me, and that's what
we've been doing.  But once in a while she climbs out of that, too, and
just stands at the door and bangs on it and screams til she eventually
gives up and goes to sleep.  When she was sleeping in the bed, I would
leave the door open so that she could come downstairs if she needed a
diaper change or in the morning when she was ready to get up.  I would only
close it when she refused to stay in the bed and just kept coming back
downstairs. I do the same thing with her in the crib, but I feel really
guilty when she doesn't want to go to sleep and basically throws a temper
tantrum.

I think at this point we'll probably just wait it out, especially since
we'll be going on vacation next week.  Maybe she'll change her mind about
the bed by then, and I'll just take the crib down so she won't have the
choice.

Cathy

    Sleeping problem kind of "come and go" for Yahli.She's been sleeping in
    "real" bed for some time now (23 months old),and usually goes to sleep
    at 8:30 pm. But if she's not tired-we have the same problem you do. So
    we figured that it was either "breaking her" or let her go.Now,if we're
    in the "right" mood-we let her spend some more time with us,and then
    she goes to bed without fuss.Soemtimes we are also tired,and then we
    put up a fight,which I hate since it takes about half an hour before 
    she goes to sleep,and at that time she cries,which makes things even
    harder. So since she has no problem waking up in the morning,we just
    lst her stay up with us until she's ready to go to bed. And I don't
    think that makes me (or you or any other person) "bad mommy".
    About leting her sleep with us- we often do. I don't really care much
    about phsichology. She gets to spend so little time with us and if she 
    needs the wormth of us-that that's what she'll get. She comes to our
    bed about once,twice a week,usually at 4am,and we don't mind. I've
    asked a friend who's a child phsicologist and he said that was ok,and
    that sometimes aroung 4-5 years kids usually stop those trips. Fine
    with me.
    R/

    
    Anna (29 months - same as Jessica and Brad) has been in a big girl
    bed for 3 weeks now. She made the change from crib to bed great and
    we had no problems...until now. She's not too bad about staying in the
    bed, it's just getting her to go to sleep!!! Last night she went to bed
    at ~8:45. She didn't fall asleep until 10!!! I won't hear her for 15-20
    minutes and then she's calling me for something, or like last night I
    heard her, went in and found her up on her changing table!!! All this
    in the dark. I don't want to move her back to the crib since we've got
    a baby coming in 4 months. She also doesn't want the crib as she has
    labeled it as the babies and "She's a big girl now". Even thought she
    didn't fall asleep until 10pm last night she woke up on her own this
    morning at 7am. I heard her (she called out that her juice was all
    gone) and I went in to find that she had again climbed up on the
    changing table!!! I plan to move the table so it's not accessible from
    the bed. In terms of her taking so long to go to sleep, should I just
    wait it out??? Keep her up later (that's tough as I want to go to bed
    early due to the pregnancy). Lay down the law (does that really work
    with a 2 1/2 year old and if so how do I do it)?? 
    
    Just watching this note for all good input.
    
    Patty

    We used to have some of those problems with Derek (now 4), but what we
    found that helped a lot was getting a Fisher-Price tape player, and
    after we read a couple of books and said good night, we'd put on a
    tape, and he'd fall asleep.  We've been doing this for almost 2 years
    now, and it still works great.  Every now and then he'll need another
    tape, but usually one does the trick - he's out before the end of the
    tape.  We have a lot of the Disney story tapes, and some other
    children's tapes - we let him pick out the story that he wants to hear
    (why put up with another tantrum by us picking the tape?)
    
    I remember he used to come to bed with us too, but I was getting pretty
    tired, so one night I just gave him a big hug and carried him back to
    his bed, and he fell right back to sleep!  I think he just needed the
    security of knowing that we were still there.
    
    Good luck!
    Barb  

    There was a good article in the latest Child magazine about this,
    though it may have been in the age-specific section (for 3 year olds).
    I mostly remember the parts about having a special routine before bed
    with 10-minute warnings. They also suggested saving the best parts for
    last (ie, changing and washing first, books and cuddling just before 
    bed). I haven't had any problems with my 3-year-old (yet!) He's been
    in a bed since early September and has only gotten out once. He was
    afraid of monsters. So the next day we made a monster mask (a painted
    paper plate with a string on it) that we hung on his door to keep the
    monsters away. Seems to have worked so far....
    

    Ok, I've read all 252 notes and also notes 390 and 125 in regards to
    moving toddlers from crib to toddler beds.  However, I have not yet 
    found a note that matches my problem.  Any advice would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    I have a 14 mo. old daughter who started climbing out of her crib.
    Yes, her mattress is all the way down and I've taken the bumber pads
    out so she can't stand on them, but the little monkey can still pull
    herself up and get her leg (and body) over the rail!  The problem is
    that she hasn't figured out how to climb down so the just hangs there
    and I'm afraid she's going to fall and hurt herself.  The worst part is
    that she doesn't even fuss or call for me first.  She's perfectly quite
    while she's doing this so I can't always be sure I'll catch her.  First, 
    we decided to put the rails down so if she was going to climb out she 
    could do so safely.  My husband and I spent three hours one day trying 
    to teach her to safely climb out the lowered rail.  Well, she won't have 
    any part of it.  She goes to the headboard and footboard and starts 
    climbing over!
    
    Although I thought she was too young for a bed, I was scared she was
    going to hurt herself so I bought a toddler bed.  I tried to make a 
    big deal of it as mentioned in previous notes but remember she's only
    14 months so you can't really explain anything to her and she's
    certaintly not able to pick out the sheets she wants. Anyway, I put her
    in the bed, tried lying beside her for a while but she won't stay in 
    the bed.  I tried putting her to bed, putting a gate on her door and
    figured she'd go to bed sooner or later.  Well, little miss monkey can
    now climb over the gate so that is no longer an alternative.  At 14 mo
    I certaintly can't let her have run of the house.
    
    Any advice other than closing the door?  I hate the thought of shutting
    her into her room and not being able to see/hear her even though I
    "think" her room is safe.  I haven't read the Ferber book, does it
    offer any advice for this type of situation?  If so, I'll buy it.  
    I've thought about keeping her up till she falls asleep and then put
    her in the bed so she'll wake up in it and then maybe get accustomed to
    it but I'm afraid of creating another bad habit of holding her until
    she falls asleep.  Any ideas?
    
    Holly

    My brother-in-law and his wife had the SAME problem with their son 
    (easily climbed out of his crib at 12 months old!).
    
    They found a unit that connects to the top of the crib, and forms a 
    "tent" over it.  It can easily be zipped open (just like the entry of 
    a tent) to get in and out.  If you are interested, send mail, and I'll 
    try to find out where they purchased it.
    
    Peggy

    In one of the previous versions of this file, I think I
    remember someone suggesting replacing the door with a
    screen door.  That way you could close the door to keep
    her safely in her room, but you would still be able to
    hear what was going on.  

    Last night after reading .254 I came home and found that I'd received
    the "Right Start" catalog - and on page 22 is the "Crib Tent".  The
    good news: it's made of mesh, attaches easily (without tools) with
    velcro; fire retardant and safety tested; zips open easily.
    
    Bad news: $89.95 + $2.50 shipping + $3.25 handling, packing & insurance
    + sales tax if delivering to CA, GA, PA or VA.  *whew*!
    
    The Right Start Catalog, 1-800-LITTLE-1 (= 1-800-548-8531)
    
    Leslie

    Neel (17 months) transitioned to a twin bed at 11months. He had figured
    out the way to get out of his crib - stand on your toes and let the
    weight of your upper body tilt you out. Yah! Luckily he did not fall
    since we caught him each time he did it. He now sleeps in a twin bed
    which is along a wall and Avanti's (4 yrs) bed is along the other side
    so he has protection from 2 sides and the head. I put his crib mattress
    on the floor on the unprotected end of his bed in case he decides to
    get down head first. We have taught him to get off the bed legs first
    but sometimes he tries his approach. He has not fallen out YET!. 
    
    We keep the door of their bedroom closed in case he decides to wander
    but we still use the baby monitor so we know if he is upto something. I
    think we will use that  monitor until he is older.
    
    Shaila

    Well, I have read through all these replies and have found no real
    response to the problem that I have with my Jeff.  Back around reply
    .200 there was a similar problem mentioned with a young man named
    Michael, but there weren't many responses.
    
    My Jeff is nearly 11.  For the last 2-3 weeks we have had several
    nights when he just can't seem to fall asleep.  The child who is
    usually dead to the world ten minutes after he goes to bed is staying
    awake until 11:30 or 12:00.  He is not an early person in the best
    of circumstances, but this makes him much grumpier than usual.  
    
    When I ask him why he can't fall asleep, he can't seem to come up with
    a reason why.  I can think of a few reasons: 
    
      1)   He has had a lot more homework than usual for the last few weeks
           and he resists homework with all his might even when there is
           only a little, so he is really stressed by the time he gets 
           finished;
    
      2)   He has a much older brother (25 - from my husband's first 
           marriage) who got out of the Marines on the 18th.  He and his
           wife have moved in with us until they can find work and a home
           of their own.  However, Jeff's sleeplessness started long
           before Billy got here;
    
      3)   I have been busier than usual with the people in the house and
           the holiday season and I don't handle stress well;
    
      4)   Dad is taking Calculus-based Physics in college right now and
           is really busy and stressed.
    
    Gee, after writing all this, I'm surprised that anyone in my house is
    sleeping at all!
    
    Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I could help Jeff relax?  I've
    tried rubbing his back and playing relaxation tapes.  A couple of times
    when this has gone on for 3-4 days, I'll finally give him a Tylenol
    and that seems to do the trick.  But I certainly don't want to make
    a habit of that.  He likes to come and lay in bed with me until he
    falls asleep, but I don't want to make that a habit either - and -
    he is getting so heavy that it's hard for Dad to move him.  
    
    He is really dragging and I feel so sad for him . . .
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonnie
                         

    Jonnie,
    
    Have you tried a calcium tablet?  Tums has worked wonders for my middle
    child when she has sleep problems.  It may be psychosomatic, but
    anything when you have a non-morning person who needs to be awake, and
    semi-alert in the morning and can't sleep at night.  The other thing we
    do is let Carrie read as long as she is in bed.  Reading always worked
    for me, as long as it isn't a good mystery.
    
    Meg

    Have a before-bed snack - Helpful foods include warm milk (can add
    small amount of Ovaltine), warm herbal tea with honey (Celestial
    Seasonings and other processors make sleepy-time blends), toast with a
    small amount of jelly or butter with cinamon and sugar.  I find the
    sweet tastes (in small amounts) at the end of the day help me settle
    down at the end of a sour or bitter day.
    
    Take a hot bath - You can buy scents that aid in relaxation.  Aveda
    makes one - try any health food or bath shop.
    
    If you have stiff shoulders or a sore neck, lie on top of a heating pad
    in bed.  Set it high to really get those muscles hot.  Then adjust to
    warm or shut it off.  The heat will linger for a long time.   Use in
    conjunction with acetaminaphin if the pain is pretty bad, particularly
    if you have a headache, too.
    
    Count backwards from 1000.
    
    Visualize the letters S T O P scrolling across your mental screen. 
    Exclude all other words and images.
    
    Help your son develop and maintain a predictable bedtime ritual.  He
    may have let go of the rituals from toddler days, without replacing
    them with rituals appropriate to his age.  Reading in bed should be for
    pleasure only, no homework.  The purpose is to relax.  He may want to
    play tapes that he particularly enjoys.  Some teenagers can't sleep
    without heavy metal.  ;-)  He should have a low-wattage lamp next to
    his bed that he can turn off without getting up.  I have problems going
    from totally bright light to darkness without an inbetween soft light.
    
    Laura

    Thanks, Meg!  No, I hadn't tried calcium, but it sure works for me. 
    I'll get some for him.
    
    As far as reading goes, I also read before going to sleep every night,
    but Jeff doesn't enjoy reading (much to my dismay) and will only read
    if it allows him to stay up later than usual.
    
    Jonnie

    Laura,
    
    Thanks for the great suggestions.  I feel like I have enough to try
    that maybe we can overcome this problem.
    
    Jonnie

    
    I know if I have some weighty matter to ponder I have a terrible time
    getting to sleep (like should I switch jobs, should I sign the
    refinance papers, should I buy this car or that acr, etc etc). Guess I
    wouldn't make a very good VP of anything!
    
    perhaps your son is worrying about something, or starting to feel some
    pressure at school?
    
    Simon

I have 2 questions that maybe someone else has experienced and offer some
suggestions.

Our baby, now 15 months, has never been a great sleeper, however he does
get thru most nites now.  My questions:

At 15 month he still needs a bottle to get to sleep, also to get back to
sleep should he wake up during the night.  We used to give him milk, but
at about 10 months of age we started to put water in his bottle and he
is quiet happy with that.  The problem however is that when he starts to
get tired - say 7pm, goes to bed - say 08/08:30 and during the night, he can
drink 4 or 5 bottles of water.

Even though water is great for him, the problem is he gets soaked wet at
night and by morning time his nite wear are all wet and he is uncomfortable.

Any similar experiences /suggestions ?

Second issue, related the above, is that he doesn't like to sleep under the
covers, so no matter how often we cover him he ends up outside his blankets.
Now that the nights are cold and he being wet from all the water he drinks
we are worried he may catch cold.  Any ideas on what we could do about this ?,
when he was younger (<9 months) we used one of those "baby sleepbags", but
I think something like that would be too restrictive now.  

Short of a snow-suit :=),  I can't think of what we can do to ensure his 
warmth.

All advise welcome.

GC

4-5 bottles seems like a lot to me.  Not that it's bad, but it just seems 
like a lot.  Are you sure it's the fluid he wants, or that he wants something 
to suck on?  If you're not adverse to using a pacifier, you might consider 
that.

One thing we did in the winter was to use two sleepers, one inside the other. 
If they both get soaked through, that's not complete protection, but it's 
better than one.

Clay

Our baby also does not like a blanket and would wake up when she was cold.
So we set the house heater a little warmer at night but what really worked was 
a wall heater.  It was hard to find but it actually plugs into the wall
outlet/socket.  We have done this since she was about 3 months old (she is
now 21 months old).  The wall heater has been replaced once.  

I was worried about safety.  Our friend who is a fireman said it looked fine.
We keep the area within 3 feet clear when the heater is on and also installed a
smoke detector in the room.  Lauren slept through the night after we took this
tact.

With regard to the water.  You might give your baby a bottle with milk prior
to laying him down to sleep, maybe he is drinking so much water to get a full
feeling...just a thought.  When Lauren would wake up hungry we started
introducing more solids at dinner (ie. a bowl of cereal).

Good Luck.

    re: .264
    
    Problem #1.   It sounds like your baby has a classic case of "sleep
    association" problems as described in Ferber's book (the name 
    escapes me now).   My guess, in agreement with Clay, is that your
    child doesn't need the fluid in as much as he/she is using the bottle/
    sucking for comfort.   I'd urge you to read the previous 263 replies
    to this note - there's a lot of good information here!
    
    Problem #2:  Are you already using a footed blanket sleeper - similar
    to the sleeping bag you mention but with legs/feet for the mobility a
    toddler needs?   A blanket sleeper over regular pajamas (or just a
    undershirt) was plenty toasty for my son at that age.
    
    Carol

    
    I think the problem is "sleep association" - he definitely doesn't need
    the liquid, nor is he hungry.
    
    I have read most of the notes before, they helped us get some rest - in
    his earlier days ( for 9 months+) he would not sleep or go back to
    sleep unless we were with him.  From .267 it would appear that all we
    succeeded in doing was substitute the bottle for our us going in.
    
    I don;t recall seeing anything specific on a baby drinking a lot of
    water, but I'll re-check.
    
    On the footed-blanket; I'll check it out.
    
    thanks.

When my kids were still in their cribs and wouldn't keep blankets on,
we just doubled up on the pajamas. I would put a tee-shirt, a pair
of regular pajamas, and a blanket sleeper on Jessica, and that was
enough to keep her warm with no blankets.  On Brad, I would just put
a tee-shirt and the blanket sleeper as he's always warmer than her, and
that worked just fine.  I'd say just double up on the pajamas by using
a footed blanket sleeper, and you'll be fine.

And I agree that the bottle seems more a way to put him to sleep rather
than him needing all that liquid.

that a onsie, than a light footed pajama, and then a heavy blanket material 
footed sleeper keep (and kept) our daughters warm.  Neither one of them even
had a blanket in their cribs.

michael

    I have a 4 month old who sleeps pretty well at night approx. 7 hours
    but I have heard of other babies sleeping through the night 8 - 10
    hours...what should I do to try and make him sleep just a little
    longer?
    
    Anne

>    I have a 4 month old who sleeps pretty well at night approx. 7 hours
>    but I have heard of other babies sleeping through the night 8 - 10
>    hours...what should I do to try and make him sleep just a little
>    longer?

Maybe nothing.  Babies vary a lot in how much sleep they need.  Perhaps yours 
is getting all the sleep he needs.  Does he act tired?  Does he sleep 
soundly?  How many naps does he take, and how long?  Does he wake up because 
he's hungry?

If you're concerned, ask you pedi, or consult a book like Ferber, Brazleton, 
Spock etc.  Try not to compare too much with other babies you've heard about. 
Not only is there a big difference in what babies need, but some of those 
claims may be wildly exaggerated.

Clay

She sleeps around 12 1/2 hours/night now at 1.5 years.

I'm trying to remember how long she slept at 4 months and I think she only
slept around 7 hours/night at that age.  She would go to bed around 8:30,
but she'd have another feeding at 11 pm; return to bed at 11:30; and sleep
until 6:30 am.  So I'm counting the 11:30 to 6:30 as the 7 hours -- probably
because that's the amount of sleep *I* got :-)

Now, I keep trying to tell her that her bedtime is at 8:30, but she goes to
bed at 7:30 anyway...

In general, I second the advice in .272...

- Deb

    
    
    	Oh my God, I would kill (and I almost mean that literally) for a
    baby who slept 7 hours at a time.
    
    	Spencer sleeps through the night (gets up like clockwork at 6:30)
    but Griffin, now he's a different story. I'm not quite sure what his
    little agenda is but at 8.5 mos old, I typically get up 6-8 times a
    night (I kid you not). From day one, Griffin was the night owl. I've
    been doing this for so long that I don't even care that I am among the
    walking dead. (just make sure there's hot strong coffee on the other
    side of the morning shower).
    
    				Wendy

Gillian just turned 9 months old and she sleeps from 7:00pm to 6:30am (I 
usually have to wake her to go to daycare).  Must be in the genes (I love my
sleep ;-) ).  I think one of the reason's is day care.  Gilly is the kind of
kid who loves to be in the action.....so she gets about an hour's worth of
naps during the day....she never gets cranky, so it can't be doing her any 
harm.  My oldest daughter (almost 3) is a little different....can't get her
to bed before 9:00pm, but have a real grumpy kid in the morning.

michael

    Courtney is almost 7 months now (5 adjusted) and she sleeps from 8 to 
    6:30.  She has a little cereal and fruit around 6pm then a bottle at 7:30.
    
    When she wakes in the morning, she doesn't want to eat right away.  I
    think she believes she has been alone long enough and just wants to
    smile her way into my heart again:^)
    
    This is dramatically different from the first 4 months when she slept
    a maximum of four hours at a stretch.  I attribute the change to
    routine (mom went back to work) and weaning from the breast to bottle.
    
    

    Michael who will turn 5 months this Sunday also sleeps the night.  He's
    on a great schedule for us.  What I did was instead of giving him a
    bottle before bed, I moved his eating time out.  So around 3:30-4:00 he
    gets a 4oz bottle, bath around 5:30 then eats around 6 - 6:15.  By
    6:30 he is sound asleep and then doesn't get back up till 4:00AM (which
    is OK because thats when I get up to start getting ready for work - I
    start at 6:00)
    
    Karen
    

    Anne,
    
    The only thing I can recommend is time.  I have three ranging in age
    from 19 years to 8 years to 7 months.  With all of them when they would
    be on a growth spurt they would wake up every two to four hours.  when
    they weren't growing or on a developmental change, they might make it
    through the night. (Then I would panic ;-) )  For the most part I don't
    plan on unbroken sleep for at least the first year.  
    
    Meg

    I found that both my boys would be sleepy around 7-7:30 as infants, so
    I'd put them in to bed. Then before I went to sleep at 10-11, I'd get
    the baby up to nurse,hoping that he would then skip the 2 am feeding
    and go through til 6. My reasoning was that infants often have many
    shorter sleep periods but initially only 1 long one, so I was trying to
    get the longer sleep period in conjunction with mine! It did work for
    the most part.
    
    

>    Ok, I've read all 252 notes and also notes 390 and 125 in regards to
>    moving toddlers from crib to toddler beds.  However, I have not yet 
>    found a note that matches my problem.  Any advice would be greatly
>    appreciated.

     I have not read all these notes however my son "the original night owl"
     climbed out of his crib at 15 months so I know the feeling.


    
>    I have a 14 mo. old daughter who started climbing out of her crib.
>    Yes, her mattress is all the way down and I've taken the bumber pads
>    out so she can't stand on them, but the little monkey can still pull
>    herself up and get her leg (and body) over the rail!  The problem is
>    that she hasn't figured out how to climb down so the just hangs there
>    and I'm afraid she's going to fall and hurt herself.  The worst part is
>    that she doesn't even fuss or call for me first.  She's perfectly quite
>    while she's doing this so I can't always be sure I'll catch her.  First, 
>    we decided to put the rails down so if she was going to climb out she 
>    could do so safely.  My husband and I spent three hours one day trying 
>    to teach her to safely climb out the lowered rail.  Well, she won't have 
>    any part of it.  She goes to the headboard and footboard and starts 
>    climbing over!
 
     Dissamble the crib and store it for the next child.

   
>     Although I thought she was too young for a bed, I was scared she was
>    going to hurt herself so I bought a toddler bed.  I tried to make a 
>    big deal of it as mentioned in previous notes but remember she's only
>    14 months so you can't really explain anything to her and she's
>    certaintly not able to pick out the sheets she wants. Anyway, I put her
>    in the bed, tried lying beside her for a while but she won't stay in 
>    the bed.  I tried putting her to bed, putting a gate on her door and
>    figured she'd go to bed sooner or later.  Well, little miss monkey can
>    now climb over the gate so that is no longer an alternative.  At 14 mo
>    I certaintly can't let her have run of the house.

     We went out and bought a heated child water bed which sits on the
     floor.  The heat helped my boy to sleep.  Being on the floor made
     it so he could not fall out and could get back into it alone.


>
>      Any advice other than closing the door?  I hate the thought of shutting
>    her into her room and not being able to see/hear her even though I
>    "think" her room is safe.  I haven't read the Ferber book, does it
>    offer any advice for this type of situation?  If so, I'll buy it.  
>    I've thought about keeping her up till she falls asleep and then put
>    her in the bed so she'll wake up in it and then maybe get accustomed to
>    it but I'm afraid of creating another bad habit of holding her until
>    she falls asleep.  Any ideas?
>    
>    Holly

     Children should fall asleep by themselves at all costs in thier own
     rooms.  Perhaps you are chained by traditional thinking!  Why do
     you have a door on a childs room anyway?  Her privacy?  Probably the
     door is their because the builder of your house put doors on all the
     bedrooms!  There is an easy solution to this problem.  Build a custom
     fully attached gate, looks like a half or larger door.  You can either
     leave the existing door on the room or remove it.  You can construct the
     gate out of 3/4 inch plywood using spring hinges and a screen door latch.
     The screen door latch will allow you to have a handle only on the outside
     of the door.  I will try to draw a picture.  A solid custom gate cannot
     be climbed on.

     This worked for us.  And you do not have to close the door to her room!


      Door frame --->   ----------------------------------------
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
      Top of gate  ---> |--------------------------------------|
(Higher than child      |                                      |
 can reach)             |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        | |----                                |
                        |    ^                                 |
                        |    |                                 |
  Latch on outside  ----|----                                  |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                        |                                      |
                         ---------------------------------------

There's another solution too - a Dutch door.  (Being half
Dutch, there were a lot of these in Michigan where I grew
up in a predominately Dutch-American environment).

Just take a standard wooden door and cut it in half.  Then
take some solid wood (like a pine 2 by 6), and cut a piece
to make a ledge.  (You could do a 1 by 2 just as a finish
piece for the top of the bottom half of the door. Usually,
these were outside doors, and one was expected to lean on
it to talk and gossip).

Then you need to trim the top half of the door to allow for
the finish trim/ledge you put on top of the bottom half.

Note that the doorknob should be in the bottom half - else
the top part latches and the bottom swings free.  Also,
the ones back home had a latch to hold the top to the bottom
for wintertime or security.

If this were my house, and I chose this option, I'd remove
the current door, and get the cheapest replacement I could
that fits, then cut that one in half.  (yard sales, the
dump, etc).  Then store the original for a year or two when
the problem has gone away.

Pat

    Rowan slept thru' (11pm til 7am) since he was 6 weeks :-) except for a
    brief spate between beginning Oct to beginning Nov, when he woke every
    night at 4am (more or less to the minute!). As he's now reverted to his
    usual form, we have put the waking down to a chest infection he had at the
    time. I think he was waking up thirsty rather than hungry, so we tried
    allsorts such as a wet towel on the radiator (for humidity), leaving the
    light on low (it has a dimmer switch), leaving a radio on low, putting
    a pillow under the mattress to tilt him for easier breathing
    (recommended by a doctor). 
    
    I think the towel had an effect, but the rest were just shots in the
    dark. As I said, he recovered and started sleeping again so there
    aren't any further chances of experimentation (thank goodness).

    I know every child is different, but can anyone give
    me an idea of when baby's start getting into a napping
    schedule?  My daughter is 6.5 months old and not on
    a schedule.  She will usually take several short naps
    instead of 2 longers ones like I would like her to.
    
    Is there anything I can do to try to put her on a schedule?
    I don't think she needs any more or less sleep as she
    is on a great nighttime schedule, sleeping 12 or more hours.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Nancy

6 months is still pretty young; I don't think
several naps a day is unusual for that age.
It would be reasonable to expect her to start
moving towards the two nap schedule over the
next couple months.

The problem is, this is all generalization.
Every kid is different.  My first kid was
*very* erratic in her sleep habits, mostly due
to colic.  But once the colic subsided, she
was still erratic.  Once she hit toddlerhood,
she started sleeping hard.  Still naps hard
at 3 years old.

Sarah, on the other hand, was and is a dream
kid.  Napped consistantly within a couple months.
Goes down very easily - only time she was difficult,
it turned out to be an ear infection (we tried
Ferberizing, just to find out her ears were killing
her.  Guilt! Guilt! Guilt!).

I think Sarah settled into the two nap model at about
nine months, and is currently (13 months) changing
over to the one nap model.

Pat

    
    You could try settingthe nap times for her.... my babysitter has been
    exceptionally good at this.
    
    
    What she did (and I asked a LOT of questions!) 
    - wait till the baby was obvuiusly tired
    - put the baby down for a nap
    - do it again at the smae time the next day..
    
    For afternoon naps, she needed to ccoordinate with the older child's
    schedule. TG they both take naps !!
    - For this she announces "nap time!" and goes through the routine for
    the older child, then created a very short routine for the baby and put
    the baby in the crib.  The baby cried (< 5 min) the first few times, but 
    he really WAS ready for a nap. 
    
    Consistency and routine seem to be the important factors.
    
    Good luck.. each child is different!
    Jamd
    

    Thanks for the replies.  I just wasn't sure at around what
    age they started taking 2 naps.  She normally does go
    in for a nap around the same time every morning, the problem
    is that she will sleep less than an hour (usually).  Because
    of the short naps, she needs to take them often.  
    
    I have recently noticed she will take longer naps more often
    now, so maybe it won't be long before she is on more of
    a schedule.  
    
    

	In response to the kid who is climbing over the gate:
 
	We took down the door and put a screen door on Katie's room.  (Our
motivation was we had 7 cats, whom we trusted to be quite gentle with Katie, but
whom we did not trust to not be klutzes and knock something over thus waking her
up but wee wanted to be able to see and hear her.) Worked great for us.

tlh
 

    re .288, and the 7 cats didn't tear the screen door to shreds?
    
    Lorna
    

	No problem because 1) We had a sisal rope covered scratching post which
they preferred and 2) we used a metal mesh not nylon in the door.

tlh

Thanks for the replies to my .264 note.

- the reason for the baby drinking all the water appears to be habit, he is
definitely not hungry.  we switched from mile to water as the doctor advised
us that milk in the mouth overnight will severely damage gums & teeth.

- as he had colic as a baby he has never been a GREAT sleeper, it was and is
always erratic, but compared to 12 months ago its a dream.  He often sleeps from
9pm until 8 am and may not waken up in between, except to grab a water bottle.

- for better or worse he always disliked a pacifier and has never used one
  so I can't substitute for the bottle. 

I'll take the advise of some of the noters and start the "Ferberize" process
again ............. oh God !.

On the baby getting cold and Footed Blanket.  I have not been able to find
anything that resembles what I think a footed blanket should look like. Can
anyone shed any light on any other name for them and also any idea where I
could pick one up ?

thanks.

    Re : footed blanket.
    
    I call them blanket sleepers.  There are lots of different
    manufacturers of them.  They are one piece pajamas with a zipper down
    the front.  The foot part usually has a rubber type sole to prevent
    kids from slipping when they walk.  The fabric is cotton or polyester
    and feels fuzzy on the outside. You can find them most anywhere they
    sell kids clothes - I buy my daughter's at a local retail chain and pay
    about $5.

    IMO, Sears has the best footed blankets - If you go in and look
    for the Winnie the Pooh's - you'll find them!
    
    Good luck!

Hi,

Just a comment on blanket sleepers: I got some last year with "plastic"
feet, Jonathans feet got very warm and sweaty in those types of
sleepers.

This year I found same type of sleepers sleepers but with feet that 
"breathe", made of fabric instead of plastic and with little rubber 
dots on the soles to prevent slipping. Much better!




/Malin

    
    	I make our own blanket sleepers. Spencer does not fit into the
    conventional sizes so I purchased a ton of polar fleece (at 2$/lb) and
    I make polar fleece sleepers that will keep our kids warm even in our
    drafty and windowed house. (I do not put feet in, the kids wear socks).
    
    
    				Wendy

Diane Pach
SALEM::PACH
285-2498

Until last week my 2 1/2 year old son was taking 3-4 hour afternoon naps and 
sleeping through the night.  Then it started... 

Between 2:00 AM and 3:00 AM every night he's been waking up crying insisting he's
not tired, or that he's hungry, or that he wants to sleep in Mama's bed.  If his
sister (14 years old) or I lay down in his room until he falls back to sleep, 
he'll make it until the next morning.  However, this is not the solution because
we end up falling asleep on the floor in his room.  We're all exhausted and 
starting to look like a racoon family from this interrupted sleep. We've tried 
cutting down his naps to less than 2 hours, letting him stay up later and 
eliminating naps altogether.  None of this seems to work.  Last night I was so
tired I just brought him to bed with me (not a habit) and he slept until 6:45.

I do not want him to get into the habit of sleeping with us.  I am planning on
converting his crib into a toddler bed this weekend, hoping this might make him
want to sleep in his own bed.  However, it could just make it that much easier 
for him to get up and out of his bed and into mine.

Is this a phase?  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

I'm tired...
Diane

P.S.  This is my first child so I'm not quite sure if this is "normal" or not.

    I'd like to tell you that this is just a phase, but I'm not so sure.  I
    have a 3-1/2 year old and she still does this 4 or 5 times a week.  We
    tell her that sleeping with us isn't an option and take her back to her
    room.  We get her comfortable, make sure she has her loveys (and she
    has lots!) and she then goes back to sleep.
    
    We generally get back to sleep too, but it is tough to get interrupted
    night after night.
    
    One problem for us is that our house is cold.  (We don't use any heat
    upstairs because the forced hot air only wakes us up.)  We keep the
    downstairs at 65 or so, but it frequently is below 60 upstairs.  The
    cold wakes up Gina, but we aren't planning on changing what we do.
    
    Some kids are just more social and want someone there.  I'm currently
    pregnant and we are thinking of having the kids share a room so they
    can keep each other company.
    
    Maybe someone with better luck will have better ideas.  We praise her
    on the mornings that she hasn't woken us up.  I've read Ferber and used
    his techniques, but since she goes right back to sleep, we haven't had
    to do the 5/10/15 minute routine.  She just walks into our room and
    asks to join us.
    
    It is frustrating, and I certainly sympathize.
    
    judy

    
    Possible solutions:
    
    Store a pillow and blanket in his room so you *can* get relatively
    comfortable sleep on the floor. (Helps if you were a scout and liked
    camping!) 
    
    
    We still get occasional wakeup with ouir 4 yr old, and my philosophy is
    to let it run it's course. Sophie is allowed to crawl in bed with us,
    but we don't give much attention so she usuallu asks to go back to her
    own room failrly soon. 
    
    sometimes she wanst to fall asleep in our bed. Samething. We
    justtransfer her when we go to bed.
    
    The frequency is dropping off. 
    
    Jamd

	Regarding the heat:

	We have a Pelonis ceramic heater that we use nightly
	in Emily's room.  We set the house thermostat to 62, but
	set the heater in Emily's room to 66-68.  A couple nights
	that we've forgotten to turn it on, Emily has awakened around
	2-3 a.m. and been a bit more difficult to get back to sleep.

	Karen

    .297> downstairs at 65 or so, but it frequently is below 60 upstairs.  The
          cold wakes up Gina, but we aren't planning on changing what we do.
    
    Being too cold to sleep is not an option for us!!!!!!  I can't imagine
    a heating system being so noisy as to wake me up, but if one did and I
    owned it, I would replace it.
    
    Leslie

    re .296
    
    You are reliving exactly what we have gone thru. At around 2 1/2 he
    keep waking us up from the crib. So after a couple of months of 
    exhaustion we put him in a bed. He started climbing into bed with us
    soon after that. We've tried bribes. We've tried an air mattress on
    the floor of our bedroom to keep him out of our bed. We've did the old
    'get up and put him back'. We have done everything short of locking him
    in the room. 
    What we should have done according to Ferber was ignore him when he
    wailed from the crib. Not having done that and having put him in 
    a bed,  we should have done the Ferber technique by closing the 
    door to get him to stay in his room.  I have not been able to get
    my self to lock the kid in his room. Just can't do it. It is much
    better to have solved this when he was in the crib. But we didn't and
    we are paying the price. He's almost 6....still comes into our room
    and we've been exhausted for years.  I don't really mind him in the bed
    except that I know we don't get solid sleep on a nightly basis and I 
    believe that has a negative cumulative effect.
    
    And yes, my friends would probably tell you I look like a racoon.

We went through this before the holidays. It lasted about 3 weeks. 

Chris

    We have forced hot air, with three furnaces.  One furnace is in the
    basement and it services the main part of the first floor.  The second
    floor has forced hot air coming from the ceiling.  The furnace is in
    the attic.  I think the air coming from above is common in 2-story
    homes, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!  I'm not sure
    we can change it without gutting much of a 205 year old house.
    
    We actually like the colder temperature to sleep in.  I can no longer
    sleep in 70 degree rooms.  But a ceramic heater for cold nights is
    probably in order for Gina, since she is uncomfortable.  We did use one
    when she was a baby.
    
    judy

    
    My son will be 2 in another month.  He sometimes takes a 1-2 hour
    nap during the day or none at all.  For the past 2 days, he has
    not wanted to go to bed.  The other nite we kept trying to put
    him to bed and he finally went down (wasn't happy about it) at
    9:30pm.  He woke up at 3:30am and as far as he was concerened,
    he was up for the day.  It took us 45 min. to get him back to
    bed.  Of course the following day, the sitter said he was exhausted
    by 11:00am and went down for a 2 hour nap.  He did the same thing
    the following nite.  This time, I gave him some Benadryl thinking
    that his 2 year molars are coming in.  Didn't work.  He is in a 
    crib but am planning on getting him a toddler bed in the very near
    future.  Last nite (or should I say early this morning) he
    woke my 6 month old up and he started crying too (rrrrr).
    My son also has a bad habit (my husband started him on the habit)
    of not being able to go to bed with a bottle of juice (80% water).
    He even refused his juice and was having tantrums.
    
    I'm hoping that this is a phase and not a pattern.  Just reading
    some of the notes in here about older children having problems
    with not sleeping has really depressed me.  I don't think I
    will tell my husband about looking forward to a few more years..;-)
    
    Chris

Chris,

Take heart.  If there is nothing wrong with your son,
like teething, or messy diaper, or sickness, then it is
most likely a phase.

You have a couple options.  First, make sure he gets some
sort of nap at the sitters.  Keeping him up in order to
make him sleep at night will backfire;  an overly tired kid
cannot get to sleep.  Set a limit on when he can sleep and
how long.  Two hours is reasonable, and make sure he has
finished his nap by say, 3-4 PM.

So, then you can wait him out, or you can use Ferber techniques
on him.  I just did this last night.  For some obscure reason,
for the second night in a row, Sarah thought we should party at 
midnight.  It took about 5 minutes of crying, with two visits, 
to convince her I was serious about sleeping.

There have been many summaries of Ferber techniques in this
topic.  I recommend getting the book and reading it, even if
you choose not to use the techniques.  There is very valuable
info I keep going back to, like the table that tells the average
amount of sleep kids need at various ages.  (If you can't get
one, I can lend you mind, since we're at the same site).

BTW, I haven't heard of giving Benadryl for teething.  I thought
it is an anti-histamine, so it is for colds, and itchy things
like chicken pox.  Is this something new?  (I've also heard it
can make a kid hyper; have I got the wrong drug?)

Pat

    
    My daughter is 13 months and she is having a problem sleeping through
    the night.  As a baby she always sleep through until she was about 10
    months.  I have tried the Feber method of letting her cry for a period
    of time, but if I let her go to long she gets so upset that she
    throws-up.  This has happened several times so I now get up right away 
    and rock her back to sleep.  
    
    Needs some help
    
    Carla
    

Carla,

Some questions - why did she stop sleep thru? Illness?
Teething?


And a comment - I'm a firm believer in the Ferber
techniques; I've used them on both kids.

Altho you didn't provide much information, I'm guessing
you had problems hanging tough, and now your daughter
has learned that throwing up will work.

Could you provide more info on what you did, like how long
did you let her cry between visits, what you did when you
visited, how long did she hold out, did she fall asleep?

Please don't take my comments and questions as critical -
I'm just trying to figure how to help.

Pat

    Pat,
    
      Illness was the reason we stop sleeping thru.  First it was double
    ear infections then we moved on to croup, then teething and she had 
    double phenmonia.  We have not had a very good winter.  Hopefully it
    will end soon.
    
      First I stated with waiting 5 mins, go in give her a kiss,lie her
    down and leave.  She would be quiet for about 5 mins then she would
    start all over.  I would wait 10 mins then do the same.  This when on
    until I waited 20 mins then she would throw up.  I did this for a 5
    days and got tired of cleaning up every night so now I don't wait. 
    
    
      I never had any of these sleeping problems with my first. So I am
    having a difficult time with this and my husband (if he hears her) just
    picks her up and brings her to bed with us.  
    
    
    Thanks
    Carla
    f
    
    

    
    I may be *soundly* renounced, but if it works for her to sleep with
    you, and *YOU* still get enough sleep, perhaps this is a battle you can
    fight - and win - later on.
    
    IMO - I am no expert - kids go through cycles. For example, my first
    used to insist on joining us.  I tried to not get too stressed and sure
    enough, she now prefers her own room (She's 4+) I've noticed her
    periods of need tend to go in cycles.   As long as she doesn't insist on
    sleeping horizontally, it's no big deal.
    
    
    and Yuck! cleaning up vomit every night is *not* my idea of a restful
    night
    
    JAmd

    .307> and now your daughter has learned that throwing up will work. 
    
    I think this is a bit harsh, especially considering that the child
    we're talking about is only 13 months old.  Some babies are just more 
    "gaggy" than others (mine was, and at 9 she still has a low
    "toss-the-cookies" threshhold).  I also have a hard time believing that
    *anyone* would barf on purpose, unless they're hastening the inevitable
    flu-induced ol' Faithful.
    
    Even assuming for the moment that this 13-month-old has a cagy strategy
    going, that level of desperation will always "work" on me!
    
    Leslie

    
    All I can say is that we have the same "problem". 
    
    My daughter slept through the night from 4 WEEKS (!!!) until about 14
    months. She is now 21 months and wakes every night. 
    
    I also tried the let her cry it out etc plan and got fed up with
    clearing up vomit every night. I mean why should my child cry until she
    is sick to get my attention? We let her sleep with us so that we can
    all get some sleep. With us both working full time in demanding jobs,
    we prefer to spend the nights sleeping rather than cleaning up sick or
    trying to reason with someone too young to understand why she must
    sleep in her own bed. Her room has been used as a store room while the
    office was decorated.
    
    We have taken the cot away and now there is a mattress on our daughter's 
    floor surrounded by cushions. Once we have cleared out all the office
    bits and turned it back into her room, we'll try to get her to sleep
    alone again. I'll probably start by lying down next to her for the
    first few nights until she is alseep and going to her if she wakes. I
    also plan to finish weaning her at about the same time. Think we'll
    try this over a holiday week-end in case we miss out on too much
    sleep!!
    
    So all the best to the other parents in this situation and remember
    that everyone getting enough sleep should be the number one priority!!
    Sleeping in their own room alone is something that can wait for a few
    months.
    
                 seals
    

.311:

>    Sleeping in their own room alone is something that can wait for a few
>    months.

Indeed, it can wait longer than that.  I'll just make my periodic reminder that
infants and small children sleeping by themselves is a (fairly modern)
invention, not a law of nature.  If you've thought about it, and decided that
you really want your baby to sleep by himself or herself, that's fine; but
having the child in your room or your bed is fine, too, and you needn't feel
apologetic about it.  

A "family bed" is a fine arrangement, and needn't be defended on the basis of
"they'll grow out of it soon", as though it were a problem to be solved.

	-Neil

    It has worked for me with all three of my kids to just take them to bed
    with me as well.  When they are small it is mush easier on me just to
    have the diapers near by and never have to completely wake up to nurse
    them, change them and go back to sleep.  While I realize Ferberizing
    children works for a lot of people, it seems awfully harsh to me to  
    use on a child under the age of 2.  They seem to learn to sleep just as
    soundly in my bed without the trauma for me or for the baby.
    
    Meg    

    
    re last two
    
    Thanks for your support. Yes a family bed should be the norm (is in
    non-Western social groups). Sleep should be a social event!!
    
                   seals
    

    My basic position is "whatever works and the whole family prefers."
    
    My experience:
    
    My daughter slept in her adjacent bedroom in a crib without any
    problem.  I transitioned her to a bed without any problem, though I put
    a long foam bolster under the sheet on the outside so she couldn't roll
    out.  In the beginning, she couldn't climb out easily, either.  She
    stayed in the bed all night.
    
    When she was 2 years, 3 months, I split up with my husband and moved
    out with my daughter. (I know that's unusual, but it all worked out for
    the best in a few months, and I don't want to explain it.)  During that
    unsettled time, she started getting in bed with me in the middle of the
    night.  This pattern has continued and she is now 3 years and 4 months.
    
    I prefer that she sleep in her own bed because we both get more rest. 
    She can toss and turn and use just one blanket.  I can sleep very deeply
    and steam under multiple covers.  I think she gets better rest when she
    stays put.  So I encourage her to stay in her bed all night and
    resettle herself when she wakes up.  When she's well, I periodically
    give her stickers for doing this successfully.  
    
    I tried using the Ferber technique to get her to sleep and keep her in
    bed.  But, I found it just doesn't work for Ilona.  Whether because of
    the upset in our lives and our emotional vulnerability, or because she
    is an intense, energetic child who still needs help settling down, I
    now stay with her until she's asleep or very close to it, and I let her
    climb into my bed in the middle of the night.
    
    Laura
    

I've got no problem with kids sleeping with their
parents.  However, if the parents (or just one
of them) perceive a problem, then there is a
problem.

And, yes, 13 month olds can learn that vomiting
will work.  The thing we seems to be differing on 
is the motivation of a 13 month old.  I don't think 
a kid that age sits downs and thinks thru a strategy 
to get what they want - that comes another year or 
so later :-).

*But* I think a kid can cry until they vomit,
Mom/Dad gets all excited and gives them what they
want - to be held and cuddled, etc.  Do that two
times, and they realize the tactic works. Pure
behavioral modification.

That's not to say you shouldn't cuddle a kid who
vomits, but you need to look at the context.  If
you are in the middle of Ferberizing, then you will
sabotage your efforts by cuddling the kid.

Ferber's tactics work when you are consistent. In
this case, consistent means cleaning the kid up,
putting her back to bed, and walking away.  (Then
going into your own bedroom and crying your own
eyes out :-)).

It is not easy to Ferberize.  You have to believe
you are doing the right thing, and you have to
know exactly why you have chosen to do it.  If you
have a shy, clingy kid, it may not be a good idea,
because that kid may really and truly need more
reassurance, especially in the dark.  If you have
adventurers (like mine), then Ferberizing just means
handing over responsibility for going to sleep
to the kid; there aren't side issues like insecurity,
etc to deal with. (For example, I would not Ferberize
a kid who is going thru the separation anxiety phase.
*That* kid truly needs Mommy or Daddy to be there...)


So, to the person to asked about this:

If you decide you want to continue with the Ferber
techniques, you need first, to get your husband to
commit to doing it too.  If he goes and picks up
the baby whenever she cries then she will not
learn to go to sleep herself (which is the whole
purpose of Ferber tactics).

If he can't do it, then you need to find another
way.  (Being crabby on a Monday morning, my suggestion
is that you delegate the whole issue of bedtime and
sleeping thru the night to him.)

If you decide to continue with Ferber, then I suggest
you shorten the visits to 1, 2, then 3 minutes the first
night, then to 2, 4, and 6 minutes the second night
(and 3, 6, 9 minutes the next, etc).  I found that worked 
better for a baby, and I could hold out for that long.

It also means that you will visit before the vomiting
and you can then sidestep that issue.

You need to do what feels right to *you*.  If you want to 
continue with Ferber then I'll be happy to try and help.
I probably can't help with other tactics, but
I can empathize on the lack of sleep :-).

Pat

    
    Well, just wanted to thank all of you who have noted your experiences
    and efforts in this notes file...  I started reading last week
    and decided that it was TIME!  My son, Mitch, is almost 10 months
    old.  He slept through the night for about a week when he was
    3 months old, but has been getting up in the midde of the night (once
    or twice... sometimes more) ever since.  And I knew there was no
    reason for it (other than habit), except when he was sick.  Well,
    this past weekend (starting Thurs night) my husband and I decided
    to Ferberize him, and by gosh IT WORKED! Last night (Sun night), 
    he slept through (from about 8:00 to 6:30).  I think I've found
    heaven on earth!  I am so much more rested this morning having 
    slept solidly without any interruptions - and so is Mitch!  He
    woke up so happy this morning! It was great.
    
    The story?  Well, he had been getting up every night around 2 a.m.
    for a bottle.  To start out on Thurs, he woke up and instead of
    taking him out of his crib, I decided to give him a little sip (like
    1 oz - instead of the whole bottle) in his crib and then rolled
    him over and he went back to sleep.  He woke up 1 hr later and that's
    when we decided to let him cry.  He was fine while I was there,
    but the minute I left he would wail... this is when we realized
    he was controlling us.  He cried for about 30 minutes and went
    back to sleep until morning.  Night #2 (Fri), he woke up at
    2:30ish... we did not give him a bottle, we let him cry and he went
    back to sleep in about 20 minutes.  Night #3 (Sat), woke up around
    2 a.m. ... no bottle, went to his crib to reassure him and roll him
    over, rubbed his back.  When I left he cried for about 15 minutes
    and went back to sleep.  And finally, last night (night #4) he
    slept through (~10.5 hrs).  Now please note that he has not slept through 
    in MONTHS!  So I know that this technique is what worked.
    
    I have tried other things, and this was the only one that seemed 
    to have such noticeable and quick results!  So for all you parents 
    out there who want to get a solid night of sleep - give it a try!  It 
    is very difficult to let your baby cry, but it's worth it - for them
    and for you!  Now, this is not to say that if your baby is sick or
    teething that you should just let him/her cry, they do need comforting
    sometimes.  But it's pretty easy to tell the difference in the cry when 
    it is for attention... the cry cranks up to a wail, and they he would 
    quiet down (to hear if we were coming to get him)... then he would crank 
    back up again, and down again.  Anytime he would hear a noise (like the 
    heat coming on) he would quiet down. Then when he realized it wasn't us 
    coming in to get him/feed him, he would crank back up again.  But he did
    finally go back to sleep and we are soooo happy that we finally
    took action and tried ferberizing him.  It takes a conscious effort -
    you can't give in, and you need to be consistent, but it WORKS.
    I can't believe how well this worked!  I had my suspicions about
    ferberizing Mitch, but I am now a true believer in this technique!
    
    Thanks noters!
    
    Julie 
    
    
    
    
    
    

Here are a couple of slightly deeper thoughts that influenced us into 
being EXTREMELY strict with our own three about sleeping, by themselves, 
through the night, from birth on.  Warning: I do "go on a bit", below.

Seems to me the purpose is to teach a small child what it means to be 
a separate person.  So, while agreeing that each person and each family 
may be different, in general I'd say that EVERY child needs to learn
to sleep by himself, and the sooner the better.  I say "the sooner"
with no qualification because even at 1 week, 1 month or 1 year old
the child actually IS a different person from his parents, who already
at one week of age can no longer do everything the child needs, some
of which he must do himself (find his own equilibrium, calm down, deal
with pain etc.). 

So the trick to us seemed to be to distinguish the waking/crying/
demanding which came from illness or another objective problem, from the 
same behaviour coming from trying to identify with or "control" us as 
parents.  Our approach was (obviously) to try and guess which it was 
in each case, and then to err on the side of severity (i.e. assuming 
it was identification) whenever in doubt.  The result so far is that 
the kids all sleep through each night, except when they have a serious 
(health, nightmare) problem in which case they come out of their 
bedroom to tell us, the most naturally in the world.  That happens at
most once or twice a month, and then almost always while we are still up. 

This "identifying" thing, which I may not have expressed very clearly,
actually means the same as wanting cuddles, emotional reassurance etc. 
more often than is "reasonable".  I.e. it's obviously impossible to 
spend ALL the time reassuring your child, or even spending every 
minute in his company; if this is what he seems to want, then maybe he
has made some fundamental mistake about his role and your role in the
universe.  One possible mistake is this: the normal way for things to
be is that you and he are together every single instant, because you 
and he are "one".  "Separation anxiety" is the same thing, I think. 

(There are other possible mistakes; e.g. he's always unhappy, but when
you cuddle him it's better, therefore you must cuddle him ALL THE
TIME.  The mistake here is that if you did cuddle him all the time but
the reasons for his unhappiness didn't change, then he would no longer
be consistently happier.) 

    Oh dear.  I find .318 to be absolutely *chilling* (can't get the hairs
    on my neck to lie down now).
    
    Leslie

re .318:

> Seems to me the purpose is to teach a small child what it means to be 
> a separate person.  So, while agreeing that each person and each family 
> may be different, in general I'd say that EVERY child needs to learn
> to sleep by himself, and the sooner the better.  I say "the sooner"
> with no qualification because even at 1 week, 1 month or 1 year old

I'm afraid that I disagree almost entirely with this opinion.

It is true that proper development will lead to a child who has a clear
self-identity, a "separate person".  But I do not believe that the adult's role
in facilitating this development is to focus directly on separating the child
from the adult, right from the beginning.

It is obvious that, prior to birth, the child is in fact not a separate person. 
I don't think that there is a binary transition at birth.  An infant is, in many
regards, more like the dependent fetus it was than like the independent child it
will become.  I think a view of development that looks only at the end point,
disregarding where the child is now, is misguided.  To my mind, enforcing
separation for an infant because the child must ultimately learn to be separate
makes no more sense than forcing an infant to spend all its time upright because
it must ultimately learn to walk.

The entire area of child development is one big demonstration that the shortest
distance between two points is not necessarily a straight line.  "Normally",
children will develop appropriately when the appropriate time comes.  Attempts
to accelerate the process, artificially and prematurely forcing children towards
a future developmental stage (whether it be walking, talking, reading,
independence, or whatever) are probably useless at best, and damaging at worst.

	-Neil

Well, Neil, while I agree with more or less everything you've said (in 
-.1), I rather question its relevance to the current discussion.  Of course 
the child is not ACTUALLY separate yet when it's newly born.  That's 
what I said: the PURPOSE is to teach him to be.  I also said "LEARN to 
sleep by himself".  These are processes, and the amount of time they 
take obviously varies from child to child.  What I was actually saying 
is that there is no justification for postponing the START of this 
learning process until a certain age, unlike your example about 
standing up, which doesn't become relevant until the child's 
physiological development reaches a certain stage. 

By the way, "separation" is not a simple concept.  Not all kinds of 
separation, by any means, are relevant from birth on.  I don't know
how it's possible to interpret what I said as meaning this -- the 
whole note string is about sleeping, for heaven's sake. 

> But I do not believe that the adult's role in facilitating this 
> development is to focus directly on separating the child
> from the adult, right from the beginning.

"Focus" is, I agree, not the right word.  Sleeping by himself is one
of a very large number of learning processes a parent helps her child
with; this one happens to be relevant right from the start. 

> enforcing separation for an infant because the child must ultimately 
> learn to be separate ...

This misinterpretation may also be why the previous reply spoke of 
being "chilled" by what I said.  "Enforcing" suggests some draconian, 
inhuman, cold treatment focusing only on externals and not on the 
child.  If you got this impression from what I said, sorry, but maybe 
you're not bearing in mind the inadequacy of the written word in 
conveying emotion, gesture, nuance etc., or the purpose of my note 
which was an abstract discussion, not a recipe for action.

> Attempts to accelerate the process, artificially and prematurely
> forcing children towards a future developmental stage (whether it be
> walking, talking, reading, independence, or whatever) are probably
> useless at best, and damaging at worst.

Hear, hear.  I absolutely agree.  What I was saying is that separation
(in the sense of sleeping by themselves) is something which most children 
learn to do naturally from birth on, given a favourable environment. 

    
    .318 also gives me the chills.
    
    Children grow into being a separate person with time. Until that time,
    they need all the cuddles and company they require.
    
    Can we get back to the subject please?
    
                Celia 
    

    	I thought of this note the last few nights, seems we are battling
    some sort of flu and one or both of the kids have ended up in our bed
    at one point or another. No big deal, we just roll over.

	As for Griffin, he is almost one and still sleeps in our room, I
    have absolutely no intentions of putting him in "the boys' room" until
    he is a good 17 months. (which is the age Spencer left our room). For
    us that is what feels right. (Griffin sleeps in a crib unless he is
    fussy then he sleeps with us).

    	Now if you had asked me if I would have a child sleep for that long
    in our room *before* I had children I would have said, no way, uh uh,
    not me. But for us, this is just the way we feel most comfortable. In
    fact, we are so used to it and feel so comfortable that our doubting
    friends (and relatives) don't even give us those dirty looks anymore.
    (What?! a big boy like that still in your room?)

    	As an update on Griffin, looks like he's finally getting into his
    own schedule. A while back he was waking up up to 9 times a night to
    nurse and I was getting pretty tired. It was the old argument of whose
    needs took priority. I got him when he cried and nursed him when he was
    hungry. 
    	
    	He is now down to one waking a night (something we can all live
    with) and I think that one waking is due to hungry, he is a very light
    eater. Eventually he will sleep through the night but on his own time,
    in the mean time he is learning that his needs will be met, a very
    important lesson for a wee one.

    	I have mixed feelings about Ferber, although the technique helped
    us with Spencer when he was trained to wake for a bottle during the
    night (he was a big eater and did not need the food at night) I
    hesitate to let a child cry when they are visibly upset. (this  is not
    to say that we do not have crying in our house ;-))Our rule of thumb is
    that if the child cries for more than 5 minutes, then they are not
    ready for bed. We get them up and try about 30 minutes later.

    	I'm sure that we've lucked out in this area because both kids are
    consistently asleep by 8:00.

    			Wendy

    Chelsea is 21 months and has slept in her crib in her room since she 
    was 8 weeks.
    
    Having a night time routine is very important for us and I feel that
    it has helped Chelsea grow secure and builds trust that her needs will
    be met.  We are not inflexible to change, but we certainly try to keep
    to nap/bath/bedtime schedules.  I feel if we were to structured then
    it would certainly throw Chelsea off the deep end when our days don't
    match her schedule.
    
    For us and acknowledging that each child is different (meaning what
    we did might not work tha same for another family and their baby);
    we see many rewards from the choices we made.  Chelsea adores her
    crib and has been sleeping thru the night since she was four months.
    She actually runs to her room and yells "Up Mommy" when its time for
    bed at night.  She has bed buddies and blankies which I have always
    felt is important for a child to have.
    
    Ours is a family bed when Chelsea is sick/teething/or having a really
    rotten night for a reason which might just be unknown.  In 21 months,
    she has probably slept with us less then five times.  I'm not going
    to say I don't enjoy having her close and cuddling with her in the
    night, because I do.  But I also know that we both sleep better when
    we are in separate beds.  Chelsea is a very loved and cuddled child
    throughout her waking hours....when she is sleeping I know that love
    carries over into her dreams.
    
    Also, since Glenn and I are both full time employed, I certainly 
    look forward to the one-on-one time I get to share with him in the
    evening hours...in our bed!
    
    ..Lori
     

    Gee, after reading all these notes I consider myself very lucky. 
    Jessica started sleeping through the night at around 4 months which was
    about a month after she came home.  And Brad started sleeping through
    the night at 7 months which was 3 weeks after he came home.  They slept
    in the same room til they were just over 2 when we moved them to their
    own rooms and started the transition to regular beds.  Neither of them
    has done the waking_through_the_night routine for anything including
    teething, colds, chicken pox, and just plain getting physically sick in
    bed (yuk!).  I still can't seem to convince them that if they wake up
    through the night because they are sick, they should cry!  The only
    thing that Brad did consistently was to wake up every night around 3:30
    a.m. and cry about 4 times.  We figure it's when he was going to the
    bathroom and it woke him up enough to complain, but not enough to
    insist.  If he ever cried more than that, we would have gotten up to
    get him, but he never has. Now that he's in his own room down at the
    end of the hall, I don't even know if he still does it. I know I don't
    hear anything.
    
    And now that they are older, they have both learned to get up and turn
    on the light when they wake in the morning, and they read their books
    til we go in to get them. It's a lot better than having an insistent
    child demanding to get out of his room at 7:00 on a Saturday morning,
    and we actually get to shower before they get up now.
    
    We consider ourselves blessed.  They're good eaters, sleepers, and they
    like to take their medicine.
    
    Cathy

    
    So many people keep asking me (actually, assuming) if I'm having
    the baby in my room for the first weeks.  I'm not.  At our childbirth
    class last week, we had a Pediatrician as the guest speaker.  He
    brought this subject up, and it was nice to know that he feels it isn't
    a good idea, either.
    
    Lynne

	Geeze, I think I'm in the minority here!  Lauren has never slept
	in our room!  She came home from the hospital at 2 days old and
	slept in her crib from the beginning!  I personally think that
	contributes to the fact that she has slept through the night 
	from 2 months of age!  When she first started to sleep through
	the night, she'd wake up and cry sporadically but I didn't get 
	her unless she got serious.  If she had been the the room with
	us, I would have probably got her at the first wimper possibly
	delaying the time when she began to sleep the night through.

	She sleeps 9-10 hours at night now and will be 3 months old 
	this Thursday.

	Karen

    
    re -1
    
    You may be saying this too soon. A child who sleeps fine at 3 months
    can be very different a few months later :-)
    
    Well my daughter slept through the night from 4 weeks until 14 months
    or so. She was in our room for her first week home as I could just lift
    her from her Moses basket into bed with me when she needed nursing.
    Once it took me less than 5 minutes to climb out of bed due to my
    C-section scar :-), she was moved into her own room.
    
    However it's since she was 14 months that we've had real problems with
    her sleep and have allowed her to sleep with us so we all get some
    sleep. Staying up half the night with a child who won't sleep alone
    when you have a full time job and a 30 mile commute each way is not my
    idea of fun.
    
    So to all you new parents - don't get too settled about their sleep
    habits until they are at least 5 years old!!
    
                       seals
    

    My oldest was in his own room from the beginning.  He slept thru at 3
    months (by accident - my husband wasn't home to do his usual feeding
    and I had learned to sleep thru the crying).  He has always been a
    wonderful sleeper even now - he's sound asleep 5 minutes after his head
    hits the pillow (just like dad).
    
    The second started out in our room (for lack of space), but was quickly
    moved to his own room.  I think I learned really well how to sleep thru
    the crying because I never got up with him.  My husband did it for 10
    weeks and then he became an all nite sleeper.  He, however, has his
    mothers habit of wanting to stay up all night and be lazy in the
    morning.
    
    Both my kids were great sleepers once they were put to bed at all ages.
    
    -sandy
    

    
    I agree with .328!!  My daughter slept thru the night from 6 weeks
    on.  She's 19 months now and about 2 months ago started getting
    up in the middle of the night.  She's still on the bottle which does
    have a role in that but she also wakes up just to join us in bed.
    (She'll be waking up alot more to, I'm attempting to do away with the
    bottle and this little kid LOVES that bottle.)  When she does wake up
    and cries for a few minutes I get her and put her in bed with me.  I'd
    rather have her sleep good in my bed then be miserable and keep us up
    all night.
    
    deb
      

    .330 ditto - As long as we get to start off sleeping alone I'm happy.
    I really don't mind Sammy sleeping with us.  I used to - but I think
    that's 'cause I thought I was 'supposed' to!  Sammy has a half brother
    that comes every other weekend and usually by 3:00am we have both
    kids with us (they are 2 and almost 5)...Good thing we have a king
    size bed :*)
    
    

    We have had some problems with our youngest at around 19 months. 'Mummy
    bed sleep'. Since he's so good at explaining his wishes, we decided to
    go to great lengths explaining that WE had a different opinion: 'It's
    dark, all kids are asleep now, Mirjam(his sister) is asleep, and we
    want to sleep'. Took three nights, but it worked since ( mostly ;-)
    
    Michel

    
    I agree about the dark!!
    
    Sometimes Rebecca is still wide-wake when we want to go to bed. The
    only way to settle her to sleep is to turn out all the lights in the
    house. Even then she'll take a while to get to sleep.
    
    Her latest trick is wanting to climb into her own bed after she's spent
    most of the night in ours even though it's time to get up. 
    
    I'm hoping that we can use the Easter holiday w/e to get her settled
    into sleeping in her own room more. 
    
    Wish me luck.
    
                  seals
     

Wow, I'm noticing a trend here........

We've been re "Ferberizing" our 19 month old this week too.  He doesn't say
much, but he does scream and point to our bedroom.  If I let him come to bed
with us, his sister and brother join us too.  I can't sleep with five of us
and the snoring...........

I've resorted to bribery, I promise him a visit to Grandpa if he'll go back
to sleep without screaming. 

Rochelle  

    
    You asked (in jest, I think) 'is it the moon?'
    
    ... I have noticed that when the moon is at it fullest, I can generally
    count on 1-3 nights of increased sleeplessness.
    
    
    
    FWIW
    Jamd

    I've just started having a problem with my kids going to bed, and I'm
    not sure how to handle it.  My kids have always gone to bed at 7:00
    with not so much as a whimper, and I didn't see them til I got them up
    the next morning at 6:30.  For the past 2 weeks, they just won't stay
    in the bed, and we've had bedtimes as late as 10:00 when I've also
    finally gone to bed, but most nights is a continuing stream of one or
    both getting up and running around upstairs followed by me running up
    to put whoever back in bed. I can spend an entire night running up and
    down every couple of minutes, and I just don't know what to do to get
    through to them that they have to stay in bed and get some sleep.
    
    It's not the time-change as they started to do this the week before we
    changed the clocks. And letting them stay up later is out of the
    question as they really need their sleep [I've never seen a 3-year-old
    with bags under her eyes like Jessica if she doesn't have enough sleep,
    and Brad is unbearably cranky].  I have pushed bedtime from 7:00 to
    7:30, and it has gotten a little better, but tonight I didn't get him
    down til almost 8:30, and she just got up at 9:30 to go potty, but she
    hasn't gone to sleep yet.  She ought to be a real treat in the morning.
    
    It's not like I can do a time-out and have it be effective.  Any ideas? 
    This is really making me crazy, and since I'm the only one here all
    week as hubby lives and works out of state and is only home on
    week-ends, I could use a break.
    
    Regards,
    Cathy

    Cathy,
   
       It sounds like a good opportunity for a sticker chart.  They could
each get a sticker for each night that they go to bed and don't get back
up.  Then x number of stickers would mean a reward.  My sister has done
this sort of thing with my nephews a few times, and it seems like she
first did it when they were about 3.  It worked well for her.  Good luck!

                                                  Tracy

    I know that my kids (at 4.5 and 2.75) sleep better when 
    they're tired physically, and that they do the "yo-yo" 
    bit you're seeing with yours when they've been indoors 
    all day.
    
    We've found that outdoor time in the afternoon works well 
    at helping them get to sleep; when we can't take them 
    outdoors we'll sometimes have a "play bath", which works 
    well.  I make the water cooler for a play bath than for a 
    normal "wash bath",  so it's more like swimming.  The water
    isn't cold, just a bit less warm.  This slight difference 
    in temperature seems to make a difference in how much 
    metabolic work the bath is.
    
    		-John Bishop

Cathy, what we do is have Evan be in his room, but not in his bed until
he wants to be.  We started this when he first started sleeping in a regular
bed instead of the crib.  He has to play *quietly* but he gets to decide
when he is tired enough to lie down.  

Sometimes we would find him asleep on the floor, but it didn't seem to
bother him, so we just left him there (sometimes covered him, if it was
chilly).  Most of the time, though, he wouldn't stay up very long at all
and would put himself to bed quite well.  On the times that he really couldn't
sleep, he was happy because he wasn't bored stiff, and we were happy because
we still got our adult time.

On a few occasions in the last year (he's 6 now) he has felt that he couldn't
sleep, so I grabbed a book of my own and lay down on the floor next to his
bed.  The rule was he couldn't talk to me at all, and he had to be lying 
down and not playing or reading.  He usually fell asleep within just a few
minutes, and I still got to do something I enjoyed.

Hope this helps you.

     Carol

    Thanks for the suggestions. I also thought about just tuckering them
    out, so I've tried the playing outside for an hour before dinner when
    we get home and then keeping them up a little later, say til 8:00, but
    over the course of a few days, it didn't seem to matter.  And I tried
    telling them they could just stay in their rooms, but they didn't have
    to go to sleep. I let them have their lights on if they want so they
    can read, but the temptation to come out of their rooms seems to be too
    much, and what ends up happening is that once I get one convinced to
    stay in his/her bed, the other one goes in to bother the resting one,
    and it starts all over again.  Now it's 9:00, and I've just finally
    gotten downstairs, but they're still up, and I can just barely finish
    this let alone the real work I have to do.
    
    I'll keep trying.  Maybe the sticker thing will work. They love
    stickers. I'll give that one a try.
    
    Thanks,
    Cathy

    Cathy,
    
    When it was pretty obvious to me that the child wasn't going to stay in
    bed, I'd usually take one of two possible courses of action - let him
    sleep in my bed (which was just to fall asleep - I'd move them back
    when I went to bed) and sternly explain that this is NOT okay, and NOT
    to become a habit.  OR, I found it a lot easier to stop TRYING to get
    them to bed, and occassionally let them back up.  "Just for 5 minutes,
    and then you HAVE to go to bed!".  And I'd continue doing what I might
    normally do if they were asleep.  This worked more often than not. 
    Usually they seemed to think that they were missing something when they
    were in bed, and once they realized that Mom was boring, they realized
    they were tired, and willingly went back to sleep.  That was much less
    aggravating to me personally, than to THINK that MAYBE they're going to
    stay in bed "this time" and then have them up again.
    
    As I recall, with both boys, this was a fairly short lived phase.  Of
    course I didn't have twins to keep setting each other off.
    
    Or sometimes just explaining what I was going to do after they went to
    bed was boring enough for them.  Hey, Mom's always tired, but she stays
    up LATE - it must be REALLY exciting what happens when you stay up
    late!!
    
    Oh yes, and there was definitely *NO TV* and no "loud" toys or games
    that got them wound up.  "You can stay up for 10 minutes and sit there
    and color while I finish the dishes, and then you're going to bed, and
    that's IT".  
    
    Hope this helps!
    Patty

    My daughter's latest bedtime ritual (age 3.5) is to spread her beach
    towel on the upstairs hall landing, under the light, and do a puzzle
    two times, then put the puzzle and towel away and go to bed.
    
    At least she has SOME control over the process this way, and chooses
    the exact moment to sack out.  If I get involved, she wants me to stay
    until she falls asleep, which then seems to take forever.  The puzzles
    are a better alternative.  Hope she keeps this up.  It adds 20 minutes
    before sleeping, but at least I don't have to impose my will, a
    prospect she strenuously opposes in every way.
    
    Laura

                      <<< Note 27.336 by DELNI::GIUNTA >>>
                      -< any ideas to keep them in bed?? >-

Hi Cathy,

Hmmmmm, I can offer you a little sympathy. Just a *little*, I've always been
jealous of your free evenings and those 7:00 p.m. bedtimes. :-)
  
Its more like 8:30 or 9:00 at our house. 

If my husband is travelling, the kids are difficult getting to bed.  I ask dad
to call and say goodnight, when he can.  It helps a little.  


But then I'm only offering *little* ideas. :-)

Rochelle

    Well, I tried letting them stay up later til about 8:00, but the battle
    was still going til 9:30 or 10:00, so I changed my strategy last night
    back to the 7:00 bedtime, and lo and behold, I got Brad settled by
    about 8:15 [would have been 8:00, but the phone rang], and Jessica
    finally went to bed when i did at 9:30.  But that's progress, so maybe
    I'm making some headway.  One of my friends seems to think it's their
    way of testing the limits which is what I think as they've been testing
    a lot of limits lately [and the limits haven't been moving but that
    hasn't stopped them from checking!]. So I'm hoping if I just persist in
    putting them back to bed, they'll eventually go back to staying in the
    bed and eventually going to sleep.
    
    Let's hope I can settle them by 8:00 or 8:30 tonight.  I need some
    sleep, too!!
    
    Cathy

   re: Cathy...
   
   Oh c'mon... you really want to have some time to yourself *after* the
   kids go to bed... surely you jest..  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
   
   - Tom (who can empathize with your situation.... :-)  )
   

    OK, here's an update. For the last 2 weeks or so, I've been able to get
    Brad to bed and settled by 7:30 [we start going upstairs around 7:00,
    so that gives us time for rocking in Mom's rocking chair, going to the
    potty, and our time together].  What finally worked with him was just
    closing his door when he got out of bed [with the light on in his room
    so it wasn't completely dark] and telling him that the door had to stay
    closed unless he got in bed, and it was his choice. After about a week
    of that, he figured out that if he wanted the door open, he had to stay
    in bed. I ended up being a lot calmer since I just closed his door and
    went about my business, and he eventually figured out Mom wasn't going
    to give in.  The latest thing with him is that he is afraid of
    everything, so after I tuck him in, I kneel down beside the bed and we
    talk about all the bugs being outside and none in his room, the lump in
    his bed won't hurt him [it's his feet], there's no clock in his closet,
    and I put all the pins in the sewing room. Then I explain that I'll
    either be in my room or downstairs, and that Bessie and Mrs. Cow [his 2
    stuffed cows that he sleeps with] will take care of him.  After that,
    he's down for the night.
    
    Success has been a lot slower with Jessica.  I let her get up twice
    after she goes to bed to use the potty because that's when she goes,
    and then I finally went for my last resort and put that door-knob thing
    back on the inside of her door. When she gets up one more time after
    she goes to the potty, I close her door.  Last night, after I closed
    the door, she got up and turned her light on so she could read her
    books which is fine. What was different about last night is that
    usually when I go to bed at 9:00 or 9:30, she's still awake reading her
    books, and I have to shut the light. Last night, when I went up at
    9:30, she had already gotten up, shut off her light, gotten back in bed
    under the covers, and was asleep. I think I've finally found a
    reasonable solution for her.
    
    And that means that I now have about an hour every night to myself to
    duck into my sewing room and actually relax.  And they're getting
    enough sleep!
    
    Thanks for the help.
    Cathy

    
    
    My son Nicholas is 2 and doesn't seem to feel the need to sleep 
    much ;-).  He sometimes takes 1 nap during the day.  If we can
    get him down for a nap in the day he will sleep about 1 1/2 hours
    (he probably averages 3 day naps out of 7 days). He's always
    been like this since he was a baby.  At nite, he doesn't go to bed 
    until 9:00pm.  He's just running all over the place and is not tired
    at all.  A lot of the time, he's not even tired at 9:00pm.  I was
    away last week and my husband was taking care of the kids.  
    Nicholas didn't go to bed til' 10:30pm.  My husband said he was wide
    awake and tried several times to put him to bed but he kept screaming 
    and pounded on the bedroom door. For example, 2 nites ago he went to 
    bed at 9:00pm.  He woke up at 1:00am and was ready to start his day.
    He had no intention of going back to bed.  When he got up at 1:00am,
    I let him cry (figuring that he'd get tired and go back to bed) for 
    1/2 hour and he just got more and more angry.  I went in and told him that
    he had to go 'nite nite'.  He threw a fit and I waited until he calmed down
    and got him a drink of water.  He took the cup of water, I put
    him back in his bed and he eventually did go back to sleep.
    His usually awake time in the morning is 5:30am.  If we give
    him a cup of apple juice, he'll go back to sleep for another
    hour at the most.  When he gets up at 5:30, he wants something
    to drink and wants to go back to bed, I just figured he must
    be thirsty and he goes back to his bed.
    
    5 out of 7 nites Nicholas will get up in the middle of the
    nite (around 1am or 3am) and it's getting old fast.  I have
    an 11 month old son that sleeps through the nite but will
    wake up if Nicholas is crying.  I do let Nicholas cry it out
    (kind of using the Ferber method) but at the same time I'm
    keeping my fingers crossed that Joshua doesn't wake up. 
    People ask me if Nicholas is hyperactive. Not only does he
    not sleep alot, he has a short attention span.  It is very
    hard to keep him still for more than a minute. 
    
    My guess is that I have a regular 2 year old with a lot of energy! :)
    
    
    Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
    
    Thanks,                               
    Chris
                                                           

	Different children have different sleep requirements.  For
	example, an average 6 month old sleeps 16-1/2 hours per
	day.  Lauren (who is 6 months) only sleeps 12 hours (9 at night
	and 3 during the day).  Sounds like your son probably does not
	need that daytime nap anymore.  And if he gets up in the 
	middle of the night, why don't you just give him a toy and
	tell him to play quietly in his room but you are going
	back to sleep (you probably won't but why not try).  
	
	Is he still in a crib?  If so, maybe it would be a good time
	to move him to a bed so that he can get out on his own and
	play in his room until he is tired again.  

	Karen

	

    
    
    Sorry, I should have mentioned that Nicholas is in a bed and
    has been since he was 15 mos (kept climbing out of his crib).
    He has a toybox filled with toys but won't play with them when
    he is up in the middle of the nite..ugh
    
    Chris (basenoter)

    
    Well .... it's been a while, but Jason used to get like this at times. 
    It'd go on for a few months, and then he'd go back to sleeping
    "normal".  to get through the "months from h*ll", every night at about
    7:00pm, I'd take him outside and see how many times he/we could run
    around the house.  Most times I'd walk, and he'd run full force.  After
    about 1/2 hour, we'd go in, and it'd help him sleep a lot better (and a
    little sooner).
    
    Maybe he's just not getting "worn out" enough during the day.  As the
    "twos" progress to "threes", you'll soon learn you need to take the PRO
    active approach with your child.  Instead of REacting to his not being
    tired, do something to MAKE him tired.  If you have stairs, send him on
    "errands" up and down the stairs.  Ask him how long he can hop on one
    foot.  Then the other.  One word of caution, if you do it TOO late,
    you'll get him wound up.
    
    Even to this day (and they're 6 and 9), I'll occassionally send them
    out to "run it off" when they get too wound up.  Hey, if nothing else,
    they're in good shape! (-:
    
    What do you do if you continually can't sleep? (yah, imagine THAT! (-:)
    Warm milk?  Quiet radio?  Hum of a fan?  Tick of a clock?  It's all
    worth a shot....

    My son Adam is 2.25 and up until the last month he has been sleeping
    through the night and going to sleep by himself.  As long as he had
    some books or cars in his bed he would play with them and eventually
    fall off to sleep.  He would sometimes call our name and cry but we would 
    just tell him to go to sleep but we did not go into his room.
    
    But during the last month, Adam will only go to sleep if my husband or
    I are in his bedroom.  He will scream as if he is panicked and
    hysterical unless somebody is in his room.  He used to cry in his
    bedroom but we would let him cry himself to sleep because we could tell
    that it was a "tired" cry.  But this cry is very different and he is
    extremely upset and standing up in bed.  He will also wake up in the
    middle of the night once or twice screaming until we sit in his room
    and then he will go right back to bed.
    
    He has also started telling us that he is "scared".  I cannot think of
    anything that has happened to trigger this behaviour except that we had
    a few thunderstorms which frightened him and he once screamed
    hysterically at a Hallowee'en episode of Home Improvement.  I am
    wondering if he is having nightmares or if he is frightened of
    something in his room (he cannot speak well enough to tell us yet).
    
    For now we have been reading him some books in bed and then I place a
    chair by his door (inside the gate) and read a book of mine until he falls
    asleep.  We used to be able to let him cry himself to sleep but these
    panicked screams are difficult to tolerate.  It usually takes him about
    an hour to fall asleep.  The baby-sitter has told me that he has
    started doing the same thing for his naps and that somebody must stay
    in his room within eyesight, but he used to go to sleep fine. 
    
    I am 7 months pregnant and I would like to resolve this sleep problem
    before the baby is born.  I am wondering if this is just a phase that I
    should help him through (by staying in his room to comfort him) or
    whether I should be tough and let him cry himself to sleep (perhaps he
    has just figured out that this hysterical screaming works - and it
    does!).  I have tried rationalizing with him and telling him that there 
    is nothing to be "scared" of but that hasn't worked.
    
    Has anybody else had this problem?  Any advice?
    
    	Lorraine

Kids start dreaming at about 2 years old.  My younger daughter,
Sarah, has started already, at almost 21 months.  How do I know
this?  Because she "wakes up" screaming, and wants to be picked
up.  When I pick her up, she still is reaching up to be picked
up.   She's just not awake yet.

Also, she has recently become afraid of her bedroom curtains.
(Go figure.)  No amount of looking closely at them, touching
them, etc, has prevented her from freaking if we leave her alone
in her bedroom with those evil curtains.  Her room no longer
has curtains.

The other factor that is probably helping cause the upset is his
two-year molars.  I would bet he's teething, or at least was when
he started this, and the combination of that pain and dreaming 
probably set him off.  You should also consider the possibility 
of an ear infection (any other symptoms? ear pulling? Can he say 
whether his ears hurt?) 

Under those circumstances, I'd try giving Tylenol before bedtime
for 3 nights.  Sometimes, it just takes the edge off, and the poor
kid can relax enough to sleep well.

Here comes the opinion part:  I believe very strongly in Ferber,
and I think this kind of situation is helped greatly by the
technique.  By leaving him for very short periods of time, then
coming back to reassure him, you are making it clear to him that
you are there if he really, really, really needs you.

With the panicked type of crying you describe (both of my kids went
thru a phase like this at about this age, when dreaming started), I
would respond at 1, 2, then 3 minute intervals.  (Ferber recommends
5, 10, 15 to start; too long for this situation, in my opinion).
Your daycare provider can do the same, altho that's not necessary.
Kids can easily separate home/night from daycare/nap.

I know this is tough when you need the sleep so much yourself right
now.  I think this is just a phase, and you can work thru it.  It
may take another month, tho.  (My older daughter kept it up for
two months.   The younger for only 2 weeks.)

Good luck,

Pat

    
    I think it depends more on if the kid really IS scared.  I believe the
    whole idea behind Ferber is to try to stop your kids from 'controlling'
    you with their (non)sleep habits.
    
    If your son is truly frightened, then in my opinion, it's never better
    to leave him to just 'sweat it out'.  You have to decide if he really
    seems afraid or if he's just looking for company.  If he's afraid,
    there's a lot of little things you can try to help soothe his fears. 
    Is he afraid of it being dark, or just being alone?  If it's alone
    (which it sounds like), then maybe a special stuffed animal or
    something, along with a soothing story .... 'When I was little, I used
    to be afraid to be alone, but then I had this bear.  And whenever this
    bear was with me, I was never alone.  Now I want you to have the bear
    so YOU don't feel alone".  Might work, might not - tough to say at that
    age what will work.
    
    A friend of mine's child (at ~2) became TERRIFIED of monsters in the
    closet.  They went through weeks of not being able to get the kid to
    sleep, and then he'd wake up his brother, and the whole family was
    miserable.  Ended up giving him a flashlight that he could just push
    the button when he got scared, see that there's no monsters, and go
    back to sleep.  I think playskool makes one that the switch stays 'on'
    and then there's like a 'trigger' to actually turn the light on, and
    w/in a minute or so it shuts itself off.
    
    My feeling is, if there's really something bothering him, you've got to
    solve that before you're going to get him to be comfortable sleeping
    again.  To be able to relate, think how you'd feel if you were alone in
    your room, and you were absolutely *TOTALLY* certain that there was a
    murderer in your closet, because you SAW him.  Maybe he even talked to
    you! (kids have wild imaginations).  But every time you screamed for
    your husband he'd just come in and tell you there was nothing wrong,
    and to go to sleep, OR he wouldn't even bother to respond, and if he
    did, he'd abandon you again.  I don't think kids feel a whole lot
    different about a lot of this stuff.  It's REAL to them.
    
    Try to get to the root of the problem, and the problem will virtually
    solve itself ....
    

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't respond if
my kid was *really* afraid.  I actually mean exactly the 
opposite. I think panic crying from a kid requires immediate
response, as often as necessary.  (Rereading my reply,
it sure doesn't sound like that).

My point was, that after you have done all the stuff
to remove monsters from the closet, killer window curtains,
convinced the dog to sleep in the toddlers room, etc, *and*
it's been a month, then it is very likely to be the habit
of crying.  *Then*, Ferber is reasonable.

BTW, my husband solved the closet monster problem having
Elise and him write a story about the monster in her
closet.  She named him (Gregor), and helped decide what it 
is he does in there.  I believe it gave her enormous control
over her fear to realize the monster only did what she
thought it did.  (Gregor's mother is Sally, who lives in
her grandmother's closet in Florida).

Pat

I just came across this interesting item in the Usenet misc.kids newsgroup:

Organization: University of Maine System
From: <[email protected]>
Subject: Feberizing - article update

Sorry for bringing up the sleep thread again but I thought some of
you would be interested in this.

In the recent issue of PARENTING (August 1994), there is a short
piece on Ferberizing.  This is just a summary - it does not
contain the entire piece.

...told PARENTING that he never ment for his "progressive waiting"
technique to be used as a panacea for all of children's sleep
troubles.

Ferber is disturbed that so many parents turn to the technique as
their primary method of getting their kids to sleep.  "People
often look for an easy solution, so they read just that one part of
the book," he says.

Progressive waiting, he explains, should only be used when a child
has become dependent of a "crutch" at bedtime - being nursed or
rocked to sleep, for example.  In such instances, he maintains,
the method is highly effective.  In all other cases, however,
Ferber recommends that parents try simpler ways of alleviating
sleep problems, such as setting a later bedtime and cutting
down on naps.

Ferber is particularly troubled that some parents refuse to
give up on Ferberizing even when the technique clearly isn't
working - letting kids cry it out for too long.  When parents
do try to Ferberize, he stresses, "they should do what we do
at our sleep clinic:  If it's not working, try something else".

This was reprinted without permission.

Again, I just thought some would be interested in this update.


Ann Soule

Thanks for entering that.  I've always had a problem with letting a child
cry, especially a baby.  We never did that, and had vastly different sleep
results between the two children which I attribute to just individual
differences (one going to sleep early, but not sleeping through the night
regularly until he was about 2 years old; the other going to sleep later
but sleeping through the night regularly at a couple of months old).
The one thing that is the same between the children is that they know if
they cry for us, that we will come and comfort them.  If they wake up and
don't want us, they don't cry (just play).

   Carol

	My five month old son, Andrew, has been sleeping through
	the night for nearly 3 months now, going 11 hours between
	his evening and morning feeding.

	He started on cereal 3 weeks ago, and I've gone very
	slowly introducing new foods (one veggie and one fruit to date).

	He hasn't been quite himself for the last 4 or 5 days, and
	seemed to be needing more food.  As of last Friday, he's
	now getting 2 meals a day, plus 28-35 ounces of breastmilk.

	Since Friday, he's been getting up at night and nursing.

	Saturday, he was up at 2:30 a.m., and wouldn't take the pacifier.
	I nursed him 20 minutes, and he went right back to bed.

	The next night, he was up at 11:30 and 4:15, and nursed both
	times.  The night, his sister woke up crying, which woke him, but
	it was close enough to morning that he wouldn't go back without
	nursing.  

	Last night, he nursed at midnite and 5:00 a.m.  Again, his sister
	woke him at 5:00, but the midnite feeding was all his doing.

	I had my uncle check his ears yesterday, and there was no
	problem that he could see (nice to have a visiting relative with
	his own doctor bag :-) ).  Also, I figured if it were ears, he'd
	be tough to put down even after the nursing (as it is, I can plop
	him down wide awake, and he'll go right back to sleep).

	I've tried feeding him more during the day, but he didn't finish
	a single meal or bottle yesterday.

	If he were teething, I'd expect his appetite to drop, but that
	doesn't jibe with the extra nursings...

	I wasn't sure where to put this note, but since the topic includes
	parental sleep problems, I figured here was as good as any.

	Last bit of info - I moved my kids into the same room on Saturday.
	Andrew is now in a crib (vs. bassinet) and Emily is in a bed.

	Andrew's night waking started the night BEFORE.

	So, experienced parents, any ideas ???

	Karen

    karen,
    
    For me five months has always been a time where kids never seem to be
    able to get enough to eat, buty I have NEVER had a kid sleep
    consistantly through the night until they were two.  If yours follows
    the pattern mine have, though, in about a month and a half he should be
    back to his routine.  
    
    meg

Karen,

Our 5 month old Kyle is doing the same thing.  At about 3 months he started
sleeping through the night and about 2-3 weeks ago he started getting up
several times during the night.  For us, I believe it's a combination of
a few things.  He's rolling over in his crib now and gets his little arm
stuck under him which eventually makes him mad and uncomfortable and he
wakes crying.  Just rolling him back over to go back to sleep isn't enough
for him, he's woken himself up enough to realize that he's hungry.  I'm 
thinking that it could also be that it's just hunger to begin with.  He has
formula during the day (3 bottles, 6 oz each) and I nurse him in the morning
at least twice, and in the evening at least twice, the last time being
just before he goes to bed.  Actually, the last time is when he's ready for
bed and he just falls asleep, I've been wondering if he's not getting 
enough before he falls asleep.  Oh, he also has cereal about an hour before
bed time.  

I think it's just a phase though, maybe a growing phase?  He just needs a
little more food to keep him happy during the night.  Last night we made some
progress though, I kept him up until about 8:30 which is about 1/2 hour
later than his normal bed time.  He slept until 4 am, which was an improvement
over the midnight or 1-2 am wakings!  

What I've been doing is after the 2nd time he gets up, I just bring him
back to bed with us.  I'm just too tired to keep getting up 3 or 4 times
during the night.  I wondered about his ears too but he's not uncomfortable
while laying down, his appetite has been good and there are no other signs
of anything else wrong.  I'd give it a week or two, he'll probably go back
to a normal sleeping pattern soon.  (I'm hoping so anyway!)

Jean
 
    

 Re last:

>What I've been doing is after the 2nd time he gets up, I just bring him
>back to bed with us.  I'm just too tired to keep getting up 3 or 4 times
>during the night.  

Just wondering, are you starting a habit here, that can be hard to break
later on?

I really have no similar experience since we've been really fortunate with
Jonathan being a good sleeper. I'm sure someone else can comment on this
as well.

/Malin

    Malin,
    
    As for starting a habit of this....  I hope not, I really just think
    he's going through a phase and he'll grow out of it.  I might be wrong
    and sorry later but that's just what works for us.  I believe we're all
    better off with a good nights sleep.  I know others think this is a bad
    idea to even start this, but him (and me and dad) being cranky all day
    from lack of sleep isn't a good situation either.
    
    That's great that you have such a good sleeper, at 3 months I thought
    we were going to be that fortunate too but... Hopefully his longer
    sleep last night is a sign of things to come.
    
    Karen, have you tried keeping him up a little later at night?  That
    might be something to try?
    
    Jean
    
    

    Jean,
    
    My kids usually sleep with us for the first year, as I am too lazy
    (read tired) to get up several times at night.  They do eventually wind
    up in their own beds.  
    
    meg

    
    No, I haven't kept him up, as he does go back to bed once he's
    done nursing.  I do usually nurse him in bed, especially at 5:00
    a.m., but I tend to return him to his bed if it's the "middle" of the night.
    
    I think we both sleep a bit more comfortably , and I think he's
    safer there (I'm always afraid he'll get buried under the covers,
    which is where I found him Saturday a.m.).
    
    I guess I'm just trying to discern if he's waking from hunger or
    just waking, and the nursing helps get him back to sleep.
    
    	Karen
    

	Mystery solved!  It must have been Andrew's teething that
	woke him, then he nursed "because it was there" :-).  I think
	because the kids are now in the same room, I did the easiest
	thing first, which was nurse him.

	He slept great last night, though Emily did wake him around
	3 a.m. (and yes, I nursed him - couldn't find his pacifier ;-)  )

	He slept until 7 after that (even after Emily woke up).

	Karen

        How do you folks get your child to take a nap during the day?
  
        Lauren, 11 months, used to take a 1 hour nap in the morning
	and a 2 hour nap in the afternoon.  Now, she often refuses
	the morning nap (which would be fine but she is really tired
	by noon time) and the afternoon nap is usually under 1 hour
	even if she skips the morning nap.

	Part of the problem is, when we put her in for her nap, she
	cries and stands up.  Keep laying her down and she keeps
	crying and standing up.  Eventually we either give in and
	no nap, or she works herself into hysteria and manages to
	throw up!  If we blow off nap time, she'll generally take
	a nap later in the day because she is just so tired but it
	is often a short one and she wakes up still tired but will not
	go back to sleep!

	We have no problem getting her to bed at 8PM most evenings
	and she generally sleeps through till 6AM.  Lately though,
	she has been coughing which wakes her up and the other night
	we spent 2-1/2 hours trying to get her back to bed.  Part of
	the time was spent trying to halt the coughing, including
	a nebulizer treatment.  After the coughing was under control
	(1 hour) we kept putting her in the crib and she kept standing
	up and crying.  Finally, we gave her a bottle which she later threw 
	up because she got hysterical since we tried to make her go back	
	to bed afterwards.  We took her into bed with us and she started 
	playing which told us she was feeling quite fine so we put her back 
	in her crib, and finally let her cry for 10 minutes straight (she 
	was standing up the while time) then I went in, held her for a 
	minute and layed her down and she went right to sleep.  

	I felt like such a jerk laying there listening to her sobbing 
	and ignoring her but I didn't know what else to do!  A bottle 
	didn't work, cuddling didn't work since she wanted to play, laying 
	her down didn't work.  I think what worked was letting her cry 
	herself to exhaustion and it seems so cruel!  Anyhow, naptime is 
	similar to this incident except that we are not trying to sleep 
	so we tend to give in and let her stay awake (daycare doesn't give 
	in though on the afternoon nap but they are experiencing the shorter 
	naps too).

	Any suggestions on getting Lauren to take nap time a little
	more calmly?  A total of 1 hour nap is not enough for her!  I
	have no problem with one nap time but she seems to need that
	morning nap.

	Oh, and a drive in the car puts her out like a light!  

	Karen

	

    The transition from being a two-a-day napper to a one-a-day napper
    is very difficult.
    
    You may end up giving her her lunch ealier in the morning -- 11-ish --
    and put her down for her nap after that.
    
    Good luck.
    Diana

	Emily used to fuss frequently at nap time.  When certain nothing
	was wrong, I would go in, lay her back down, reiterate that it
	was naptime, and leave.  If the crying was not hysterical, I'd
	wait between 5 and 15 minutes before returning.  It's hard, but
	I don't think it's cruel.

	My kids have never cried so much that they throw up, so your
	situation could be different.  I wonder if there may be something
	else going on, such as an ear infection ??

	(my kids exhibit next to no symptoms when they are having
	ear infections, except a change in sleep behavior)

	Karen

I found the book "Solving Your Child's Sleeping Problems" by Dr. ? (I forgot -
I'll check) to be very helpful.  It was recommended by a number of people who
had a wide range of problems concerning their child's sleep habits.

Good luck.

    
    Dr. Ferber.
    
    Excellent book!
    
    

>>	My kids have never cried so much that they throw up, so your
>>	situation could be different.  I wonder if there may be something
>>	else going on, such as an ear infection ??

	Nothing else going on.  She has always been like this.  If
	crying becomes hysterical, she starts gagging and then throws
	up.  She also has been known to get sick from coughing.  Just
	over active gag reflexes, I think.

	Re: everybody... sounds like I just need to be more firm and
        also practice consistency.  

	Karen

    Hi Karen!
    
    Paul had begun doing the no nap in the afternoon thing just before he
    turned one, around the same age as Lauren I believe.  His morning nap
    was anywhere between 1-3 hours depending on who was sitting for him.  I
    find that with me or my husband, Paul rarely sleeps.  I find with my
    mother or my MIL, he sleeps alot and with my sitter, he is very
    scheduled.  Makes sense if you think about it.
    
    In any case, the noter who said that having a lunch alittle sooner
    might help.  I did this with Paul with dinner when he was staying up
    later than we wanted.
    
    Now, he is a no nap afternooner or a 5-6 p.m. napper.  This doesn't
    bother me anymore because my husband gets home late so he gets to play
    with Paul and I get to relax and plan dinner before my "quiet" time is
    over and my husband is home. :)
    
    I also have Paul eat an early breakfast now to ensure morning nap
    instead of giving him a bottle first thing after changing him and
    having a 9:00 breakfast.  He eats breakfast at 8:00 now and usually
    naps for an hour somewhere around 9-10.  I try and keep this schedule
    for him with whoever is watching him also, including me.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    cj
    
    

    
    A few thoughts ....
    
    Jonathan's 13 mos old, and just recently started HOWLING when he goes
    to bed in the evening and/or for his naps at home (not sure how he does
    at daycare, but they haven't complained).  I found (quite by mistake)
    that if I left his bedroom light on, he went to sleep much easier, and
    was a lot more relaxed about it.  Once he's asleep I shut the light
    off, and he's fine.  This weekend I got a BRIGHT nightlight, and put it
    near his crib, so he can see it when he lays down, and he just stares
    at it and fades off pretty quick.  And in the mornings he's been a lot
    more relaxed as well.
    
    I've never used night lights or anything like that for the older two,
    but the dark (or even dim) definitely is having an impact on him.  And
    if he still needs some time to wind down a little, I'll lay him down,
    and take a toy and play with him with it for a minute, and then leave
    the toy for him to play with, and he nods off within a few minutes. 
    Just try to make it a toy that won't hurt too bad if they roll on it.
    Usually a stuffed animal works for Jonathan.
    
    A lot of times they just don't like being "separated" from the action.
    Some music/radio or windup toy might help.  Actually, the mobile is
    still on Jonathan's crib, and that soothes him a lot.  You wouldn't
    like it either if you were in the midst of a wild party (from Lauren's
    perspective), and were suddenly swooped up and stuck in this cage, all
    by yourself, in the dark, with no one around.
    
    Whatever you do, try to be consistent, and try to avoid taking her
    "out" once she's "in" - if you do it once, she'll expect it always.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    
    
    I also agree that there's too much action going on and your
    child doesn't want to miss out on any of it.  My boys did
    the same thing.
    
    I'm starting to have problems with my 15 month old son's
    (Joshua) sleep habits.  Nicholas, my 2 1/2 yr old just 
    recently started sleeping through the nite and now Joshua
    refuses to sleep through the nite.  He only takes 1 nap
    a day for about 1 hour.  He goes to bed around 7:30-7:45pm
    and is pretty wiped out by that time.  Around 11:00pm is when
    the fun starts.  He wakes up and screams and my husband breaks
    down and gives him a bottle (I know, VERY bad habit, I've told
    him how I feel about it and I'll only let him have water) because
    he said he can't take to hear him cry.  He will do this 2, sometimes
    3 times a nite.  It's getting ridiculous.  Last nite I told my
    husband to let Joshua cry it out for a while and he screamed for
    about 20 minutes and my husband broke down and gave him a bottle.
    I'm going to the bookstore and buying the Ferber book.  The other
    nite he woke up 4 times (that wasn't a typo ;-)) and probably
    had 2 hours of sleep.  I hope the Ferber method works out.
    I'm trying to think when the last time I had a full nite's sleep
    with no kids waking up. I figured it was about early February of 92'.
    
    Wish me luck!
    ;-)
    
    chris

We also tried Ferber's method and decided it is not for us.

We thought our daughter was genuinely distressed.  Ferber says that the
child is crying but isn't really upset or something along those lines;
we didn't agree.

We felt that being alone in the dark can be scary.

Now she has a nightlight, and if she wants to get into bed with us, it is ok
with us.

Some friends solved a similar problem by putting their younger child into
the same bedroom as the older child.

Good luck
Beryl

	I just brought Andrew to the doctor's on Tuesday to
	have his ears checked.  His daycare provider was surprised
	because he was the happiest guy all day long.  I, too, thought
	I might be over-reacting, as the only symptom (besides his cold)
	was that he had been waking at 4 a.m. for 3 nights in a row.

	At each waking, he'd fuss until I nursed him, then would fall 
	asleep until a more decent hour (5:30 ;-) ).

	I always thought that a baby with an ear infection wouldn't
	want to nurse or would be difficult to get back to sleep, but
	this is now Andrew's third ear infection in a month, and each
	time he had the same single symptom - night waking.  He did
	the same thing when he first started teething.

	Just something you may want to consider...

	Karen

    I agree with .374, Ferber wasn't for us either.
    
    I would try to rule out other problems first (ears, teething, genuine
    hunger).  We typically try other methods to get Kyle back to sleep in
    the middle of the night but usually end up giving him a bottle.  Since
    he drinks the entire bottle and usually goes back to sleep afterwords,
    I can't help but think that the little guy was genuinely hungry.
    
    And yes, if nothing else works, he'll come sleep with us.  Heck, I'd
    pick a waterbed over the crib mattress anyday!  If we get a good
    night's sleep and aren't spending 1-2 hours fighting with him to get
    him to go back to sleep, it's worth it.
    
    Jean
    

    
    My son is 3 1/2 years old and we are having problems getting him to
    sleep at night.  This has been a problem on and off since he has been an
    infant and I'm not sure what sparks it.  I have been told children
    his age should sleep 11 to 12 hours per day.  His normal routine is
    wake-up around 6:00 am, nap about 1 to 1 & 1/2 hours  (normal so far)
    but at night he's not ready for bed until between 10:30 and 12:00!  Way
    past my bedtime.  He doesn't say he's afraid, he just says he wants to
    stay up or sleep with us (which I don't want to get him into the habit
    of doing).  
    
    I've tried reading to him to settle him down, TV, Quite play, telling him 
    stories, & finally we end up yelling and fighting every night about 
    bedtime.  By the way, I start getting him to bed at 8:30. 
    
    Anyone have any suggestions.
    
    
    Tired mom...
    
    

    Maybe you could try cutting out the nap, although he does get up 
    kind of early for this.  My daughter is four and if she has even takes 
    a 30 minute nap during the day she will stay awake until 11:00. 
    Notice I said stay awake...because she is in bed at 9:00 every night
    so that I can have some quiet time to myself.  I have to tell her
    about every 15 minutes to get back in bed though.  I hate it when 
    she takes a nap, which fortunately is not very often anymore.   

    What happens when he doesn't have a nap?  
    
    Does he wake up on his own at 6:00?  How about on the weekends?
    
    Does he seem tired late at night?  Other times?
    
    I've found a HUGE variation in the amount of sleep different kids need.
    If he only needs that much sleep, the challenge will be figuring out
    how to distribute it differently so it matches your life!

    Hi Liz!
    
    I also say try cutting out the nap.  Steven is an early riser
    no matter what time he goes to bed, but we found once we cut
    out the nap we could get him to bed earlier.  He usually gets
    exhausted around dinnertime or shortly thereafter, which can
    be frustrating, but the plus of having both children in bed
    and asleep by 7-8pm is worth it.
    
    	good luck!
    	Linda

My little boy is 2 1/2 and has recently started cutting out his nap. I find that
the time he is ready for bed is directly related to the length of nap he has had.

He usually wakes at 7am. If he has no nap, he is easily asleep by 7pm
If has 1/2 hour nap, he's ready for bed by 7.30. If he has 1 hour nap, he's
ready for bed by 8 to 8.30pm. I've never really had trouble getting him to bed
(touch wood!), though he sometimes comes downstairs to be taken back again if
he's not completely tired out.

Sue

    
    My daughter is 2 yrs 3months and she's a night owl also.  For the
    past month it's been 10-11pm (9pm previously) before she goes to sleep .  
    I've tried skipping the naps but that didn't work either.  What  happens is
    that she sleeps later in the morning instead.  Last night she went to sleep 
    around 11pm and woke up at 7:30 on her own.  I've layed down with her 
    with the tv on but no go, she watches tv with me.  I've come to the 
    conclusion that it's not worth fighting about and making each other 
    miserable and I'm assuming that if she needed the sleep she'd sleep. 
    Course she really doesn't have much of a bedtime schedule which is my
    fault.
    
    deb
    

    When my niece was this age, she would only sleep for 4-5 hours a night. 
    The doctor said that some kids just don't need sleep (oh heaven help
    us, I'd be a basket case).
    
    Is your child eating anything that may be giving a caffeine boost early
    in the evening.  I don't have any suggestions.  My daughter goes down
    at 8:00 and gets up at 6:30 on the week days and 8:00 on the weekends. 
    
    Good luck,
    Lisa

Lauren (33 months) also is a night owl.  Of course if you have
to wake her in the morning before her "natural" clock she has
a hard time.  We are amazed at what she can do with her eyes 
closed.

We have shortened her nap at daycare to 1.5 hrs, any longer and
we really pay the price in the evening.  I struggle with taking
the nap away or reducing it anymore because sometimes she gets
really tired at school.  If she does miss a nap this can result
in her going to bed 1/2 to 1 hour earlier.  But the other side
effect is she gets fussy and not much fun to be around because
she is so tired.

We hav tried parks and mall play areas (ours has a big padded
boat for kids) after school to let her run energy off.  Basically
they all result in the same - bedtime between 9:30 and 10:30.

AND we do watch caffiene - this not only keeps her from sleeping but
makes her very fussy.  It doesn't take much either.

We definately need to be more disciplined in a bedtime routine.
But Lauren basically has our schedule  - we like to stay up late
and sleep in as long as we can.

    .0 sounds familiar.  Our son started outgrowing his nap at just over
    age 3.  Although we would go through the bedtime routine and turn out
    the lights by 9PM, he would sing/talk/play until around 10PM.  
    
    We finally cut out the nap, but then he would fall asleep at the dinner
    table or during afternoon car trips.  We kept him awake until after dinner
    (a bath helped, so did some quiet play) and then he was ready for early 
    bedtime (7PM) which after 1 year has become (7:30 PM).  He starts his
    days at 7AM and likes to make sure that dad is awake for work.
    
    Lots of exercise also helps make the little ones look forward to
    bedtime.  My son falls asleep within 5 minutes after a day of intense
    play, preschool, gymnastics.  
    
    Snack time right after dinner, followed by an hour of digestion and 
    wind-down time also sets the mood for sleep.

    
    I have tried removing his nap, and I do on the weekends.  He usually
    ends up falling asleep around 6:00 or 6:30 and wakes up around 8:00,
    then he's really up for the night!  I don't mind this as much because
    then he will sleep later in the morning.  I've discussed the problem
    with my daycare person and she cut his nap short yesterday, but she
    said he was miserable the rest of the day.  I see I'm not the only one
    with this problem.  I guess I'll have to try differnt things to see
    what schedule will work for him.
    
    Thanks,  liz
    

    I went through the same thing with Krystin.  I cut out her nap entirely
    because I couldn't handle my "no time for me" thing.
    
    Once you cut out a child's nap, you can't expect them to "fit right in"
    to the routine.  It's just like if you went to bed at 9:00 every night,
    but all of a sudden you had to stay up until 1:00.  It would take you a
    while to adjust wouldn't it?
    
    Krystin was extremely miserable and a terror to deal with, but after a
    couple of weeks, it was routine for her.  She is still going to bed at
    7:30-8:00 and gets up at 6:30-7:30.
    
    You can't just cut out your son's naps on weekends or "every-other day"
    as it won't work.
    
    If you can handle a few weeks of your son being a monster, then you'll
    be happier for years to come.
    
    

	We just solved my son's bedtime problem.  He is 2 yrs 2 months.

	Here's what we did to solve it:

	It seemed like all of a sudden it was 9:30-10pm and Bradley
	would still be up, he wouldn't go to sleep earlier.  When 
	morning came, boy, was he a bear, couldn't  get him up for
	school at all.  He would be grouchy all morning.  We knew
	we had to get him to bed earlier, but if we did like 8 or 8:30
	he would cry in his room or come back downstiars and still not
	get to bed before 10-10:30.

	My bedtime was 9pm so this was not working (I am pregnant and
	need my rest)!  Bradley usually takes a 2-3hr nap, if he has
	no nap he falls asleep at 5pm and naps then.  (He still needs
	his nap.)

	The first day we put him in his room and told him it was
	time for bed.  (this was after his bedtime routine and the
	LAST book was read..etc.)   This was 9:15.  We told him he had
	to stay in his bed or we'ld put the gate up on his room.  He
	didn't listen the gate went up.  (He hates the gate and threw
	a fit, we had to sit at the gate at his door because he is now
	big enough to knock it down.  He cried the first night about 
	30 minutes and fell asleep on the opposite side of the gate.
	My husband talked to him and tried to tell him it was bedtime
	etc.  I think he had a problem of not wanting to be alone.
	
	Night #2, same thing happened although we started at 9pm and
	he only cried for about 10 minutes and fell asleep on the other
	side of the gate.

	Night #3, just the threat of the gate, and he listened.  No
	gate, but he stayed in his room.  He fell asleep in the doorway
	of his room...he could hear the tv this way and I think that
	was comforting.

	Night #4  Fell asleep in his bed!  Didn't get out, argued a bit
	but went to sleep.

	Now, about 2-3 weeks later he is in bed aby 8:30 and stays 
	in bed.  He doesn't always fall right to sleep but he doesn't
	cry.  He now knows that mommy and daddy mean business.

	I am glad that is over! 

	Lynne

Well after 2.5 years of putting Lauren to bed around 10:00 or when
ever she fell asleep, we made some changes last week.  Our morning 
schedule needs to change so we decided for all of our sanity we needed
to get Lauren to bed earlier, otherwise that 6:30 wake up call would
be miserable.

Guess what, after 10 days she is quite cooperative.  She actually 
went down the first day pretty easy.  We basically do the same
thing they do at nap time at her daycare.  We take her upstairs, 
read 2-3 books.  Let her know that when the last book ends we 
will leave but come back and check on her after she is asleep.  
She has a night light.  

We also let her have her books and animals if she isn't ready to 
lay down as long as she stays in her bed.  

We are surprised at how she has adapted.  She starts a new day
care this week (one reason for earlier hours) hopefully (keeping
my fingers crossed) we can do this transistion as smoothly.

	My 2.5+ year old daughter, Emily, has not slept through
	the night in nearly 4 months.  

	It started right before we moved, and was the worst when
	we first moved into our new house.  We expected that, and
	dealt with it then, but also expected it to be gone by now.

	She has had some decent nights, waking only once or twice, and
	just fussing a moment or two, but many nights she cries until
	one of us goes into her.

	I can live with the occasional glass of water or needing to
	use the potty.  However, I am at a loss as to how to handle
	waking every 1/2 hour with fussing, tears, etc.

	It doesn't take much to get her to go back to sleep, but just
	being woken every 1/2 hour takes it's toll.

	The past 3 nights have been particularly bad.

	There doesn't seem to be anything wrong, she just wakes up 
	and fusses (escalating louder if we attempt to let her cry it out).

	Last night, I sat her on the end of her bed while she was crying
	and asked her to please get control of herself.  I told her that
	yelling was not okay, and she needed to calm down.  She was able
	to stop her tears almost immediately, I put her back down, and
	less than an hour later, she was fussing again.

	There was a short period where my husband was letting her sleep
	in our bed, but we discussed it and agreed that she could not
	come into our bed until morning.  She understands that and 
	accepts it.

	Any ideas from "experienced" parents would be appreciated!!

Karen

    Does she have a "comfy" item?  Maybe buy hera special stuffed animal or
    doll, and explain that that's to keep her company all night.  That's
    her "nighttime friend".  It sounds like she just needs to be comforted,
    and know there's someone around.
    
    Does she have a nightlight?  Maybe even consider letting her sleep on
    the couch for a night or two to eliminate the possibility that she's
    afraid of something in her room.  You could also try a radio, VERY
    softly, on a classical station (or something similar).  There are also
    lots of kids "sound-activated" gadgets around that, when the kid makes
    a noise, it starts up a tune or lights a light, or some such thing. 
    They're usually designed to babies, but it would still work.
    
    Or, you could think about a rechargeable flashlight, so when she wakes
    up, she can turn it on, check things out, and get back to sleep. 
    Sometimes even something as simple as a photo of Mom/Dad/Family where
    she can see it if she wakes up ....
    
    That and a dose of tylenol right before bed .... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    
    

    My 2 yr old son has been having semi-sleep problems for the last couple 
    months. It started when he learned he could get out of his crib. A
    month later we moved him into a "big" bed in a new room. We figured we
    were having going to bed/sleep problems anyway so let's move him. 
    
    Anyway, we have tried many things to get him to go to bed and stay in
    bed through the night. I'll tell you what worked for us but our solutions
    might not appeal to you. (alittle warning there! :))
    
    On the way to bed we round up his "lovies". He has to have his yellow
    bear and Elmo and he puts them to bed with him. 
    
    When we put Andrew in bed, his thing is, it's DARK! So we turn on the
    hallway light and we say it's not dark anymore. He goes to bed saying
    NO MORE DARK!, as if comforting himself. 
    
    He gets out of bed a couple of times checking on where we are as if
    checking everything out. We tell him to get back into his bed. Then he 
    gets back into bed. 
    
    In the middle of the night, sometimes he wakes up fussing, crying. He
    doesn't wait for us to go to him, he walks right into our room to find
    us. One of us lifts him into bed with us where he falls right to sleep.
    We don't like all in one bed thing either but there are some nights
    when he does this and many more nights when he doesn't. So we don't
    think we're establishing a bad habit. ?
    
    I asked Andrew's pedi about this and told him what we were doing and he
    said he thought we were doing the right thing because we "are meeting
    his needs". 
    
    It doesn't sound like the optimal solution, I know. I'd love to hear
    more responses!
    
    Good luck getting something to work!
    
    Karen 
    
    

    Karen,
    
    My daughter is 2.5 and has been doing the same thing, i.e. making trips
    into our room several times a night, just for company!  We take her
    back to bed, and she usually goes back to sleep easily, as does my husband.
    I end up awake for hours, thinking about everything.  Some days I would
    wake up feeling like a had a newborn again.
    
    We have had some luck using a sticker reward system.  We talk alot
    about Hilary staying in her very own, cozy big-girl bed.  If she stays
    in bed all night she can put a sticker on the chart dad made in the
    morning.  For every 5 stickers, she can pick out a surprise at the toy
    store.  This hasn't worked consistently, but she will stay in bed 3 out
    of every 4 nights.  
    
    Every bit of sleep helps!
    
    Julie

    My "little" guy is 6.5, and he *still* visits us after bad dreams! 
    Generally, unless it's after 4:30 a.m. when he visits, my husband (the
    light sleeper of this couple) will let Joe stay for about 20 minutes,
    then takes him back to his own room, whether he's asleep or not.  After
    4:30 - 5:00 a.m., there's only 1.5-2.0 hours of sleep time left, and we
    don't usually bother.
    
    We've been doing it this way since he was 3, and it works pretty well. 
    Joe knows we are there if he needs us, but he only comes to visit when
    he is genuinely frightened (like by a nightmare) or sick (fever, cough,
    etc. -- I *want* him to wake me up for that!!).  Hey, he slept through
    the Northridge quake (among others), so I can't complain too much. :)
    
    M.
     

	Thanks for the replies so far.

	We'll try to see if we can implement a sticker system.

	I thought 2.5 might be too young to understand the concept,
	but it's worth a try (she surely understood the potty/sticker
	concept - maybe it's just *me* that can't function at 2 a.m.!)

	As far as comfort items go, she's got Elmo, Megan, and Baby
	Terry everynight (they share her pillow and her covers, and 
	must all be replaced after each waking ;-) ).

	We also tried the nightlight, with little to no change in
	her behavior.

	I have been telling her that if she continues to fuss, I'll
	close her door, but I've still got to get out of bed for that ;-)

	Julie, I too, can fall back to sleep quite easily, where my
	husband cannot.  That usually translates to me being the one
	on kid-duty all night...

	Also, we don't mind Emily in our bed for a couple hours in the 
	morning.  I just don't want her there the whole night, not because
	it's a problem today, but because I don't want it to be a problem
	down the road (I witnessed my parents trying to break my brother
	of the habit at 5+, and it was ROUGH!).  Also, after letting
	Emily spend a few nights in our bed when she was sick, she had
	a much harder time sleeping alone after that.  I want her to
	learn how to sleep in her bed, with our bed being a "special
	circumstance" kind of thing.

	Thanks again, and keep the ideas coming.  I'm not so naive as
	to think this will be resolved with one try ;)

	Karen

    A friend of mine had a heck of a time trying to get his then-2 yr old
    to stop screaming out.  What they ended up doing (after 80 bazillion
    other things didn't work), was slept (dad did it), in his room, in a
    sleeping bag on the floor.  He would wake up, they could roll over and
    say "Go to sleep", and after a few nights of that (and progressively
    moving the sleeping bag further away from the bed, eventually into the
    hall), it seemed to cure him.  Now for the most part, he sleeps all
    night, every night.
    
    Of course I couldn't imagine sacking out on the floor for a few
    nights....

<                     -< What if YOU sleep in their room? >-

That sounds like a good idea to me.  It seems to me that she is scared and/or
insecure, and needs your reassurance.  I think your decision to keep her out
of bed right now is a good one because I don't think she'd want to stop 
sleeping with you after this time passed.  However, she still needs the 
reassurance.

I think you could stop her waking and make her feel more secure by doing
what Patty suggested.  It would probably take only a week or less, and to
me, when you compare that with the last 4 months, it's nothing.  

Set it up to make yourself (or spouse) as comfortable as possible.  Use
an inflatable bed, or camping mats, or a futon, or even borrow a cot.
Keep on a low light if you wish, so that you don't forget where you are
and hurt yourself.  Use reassuring tones when calming her in the middle of
the night.

You are the most important people in her life, and she trusts you.  If you
are there, she will calm much more quickly.  Gradually, this comfort will
seep into her subconscious, and she will sleep better.

      Carol

My daughter Shruthi(almost 2) had trouble with sleeping in her new big girl bed.
From the time we moved to her bed, she would wake up every night and cry out for
mommy..sometimes, she would even walk into our room asking for mommy.  We did
try the family bed for a couple of nights..but this seemed to wake her up!  She
would start talking to mommy and daddy...and there went everyone's sleep!

Finally, after a few sleepless nights, I started going into her room with her..
and lying down beside her ( sometimes on the floor!!)...this seemed to calm her
down and she went right back to sleep.  A short while later, I would move back
to our room without any trouble.  

The first few nights that we did this, I had to make a couple of trips every
night...slowly it dwindled down..and after a couple of weeks, she has been
sleeping through the night without any problems!

However, now we seem to have a new problem!  The past three nights, she has
been waking up really early in the morning( it went from 6Am to 5.30Am to 4.45AM
this morning!).  And there's nothing we can do to get her to sleep...she wants
to play..she's very definite about it!  We think it must be a growth-spurt phase
because she seems to be eating very well..seems to be hungry in the morning when
she wakes up although she did have a very good dinner the previous night! 
Anyone experience this?

--Chaya.

    My baby needs less sleep  then I do!!!!  She'll fall asleep like 
    clockwork every night at 10:30pm.  She'll wake up hungry at 1:30 
    then go back to sleep, wake up again at 5:30 and then sleep til 
    7:30.  That equates to roughly nine hours sleep.  During the day
    she'll sleep 0 - 2 hours.  She's not tired but I'm exhausted trying to 
    keep up with her.
    She is six months old, started on cereal a month ago (is doing fruit
    now) and has tripled her birthweight.  (She was born 6lb 13oz).
    Everything I've read states that an average child her age should
    sleep about 15 hours per day (including naps).
    I wish I had her energy.  Does anyone else have a baby that doesn't
    need much sleep.  How do you keep your sanity??   ;^)
    
    Nancy

    With red eyes and lots of caffiene.
    
    meg

    Chaya,
    
    I remember going through the same thing with my older two ... and they
    truly were waking because they were hungry.  They were also "old
    enough" (well, probably not, but I was BEAT!) to be "awake" by
    themselves for a while.  So, I'd take some dry cereal and leave it
    where they could easily get to it (in a paper cup or a bowl or
    something), and leave a drink in the fridge.  Then if they woke up
    early because they're hungry, they could eat some w/out waking
    everyone.  
    
    An idea...

    Re .399:

    My son was like that (actually worse - averaged about 8 hrs. sleep day 
    *and* night) and I'm still catching up on my sleep.  He is almost a year 
    old now & there have been days when he has slept for almost 12 hrs. at 
    night!  Few and far between, but there.  He does average about 10 hrs. 
    at night now and 1 - 2 hrs during the day.  So, it could get better.
    Either that or you'll get used to operating with less sleep :-)

    But then again, maybe she's just hungry?  I thought I read here somewhere
    suggestions for food that take longer to digest which you could give
    for dinner?  Just a thought.

    Sadhana

	Thanks for all the ideas.

	I borrowed Ferber's book from a friend, and started reading
	this weekend.

	It seems that at least some of the time, Emily is suffering
	from mild sleep terrors.  It was interesting to me because I
	was reminded that I had them, too, as an older child, complete
	with sleep walking, sleep talking, etc.  I hope that will help
	me deal with Emily more effectively, as I can remember many of
	those episodes (as I usually awakened out of my bed).

	I've got more reading to do, especially to understand the
	nights that are not marked by "terrors".  

	Karen

    
    I had a couple thoughts on Emily's sleep situation....
    
    Is it possible that she's not tired enough to sleep soundly 
    through the night?   Perhaps she's ready to drop (or limit)
    daytime naps - or move bedtime back a half-hour or so?  
    
    If she's the type of child that needs nighttime reassurance -
    could she get it if she and Andrew shared the same bedroom?
    Maybe it would be enough to know that *someone* is there in
    the room with her....
                                                      
    One other thing - which might contradict with Ferber but worked
    for us - is to respond *immediately* to their nighttime needs.
    It can be hard to jump out of a warm bed but we found it 
    helped to shorten the duration of the waking if we (well,
    usually me 8^)...) went in right away, let him know that 
    everything was alright, satisfied his physical needs, etc.
    One other thing was that we didn't allow him to leave his
    room/crib - if he was thristy, i would go get a cup of
    water and bring it to his room...this won't work for 
    potty needs 8^).
    
    Good luck!
    
    cj/
    

    
    Our little eight month old bundle of boy who sleeps fine through the
    night has been waking us up to play at 5:00am for two weeks now.  We'd
    rather not get up this early!  He goes to bed between 7-8pm, has about
    three hours worth of naps, gets three GOOD meals a day of solid food
    when we eat, gets 36+oz of formula (good appetite, this boy), has a
    nice fan running to mask noises (our house is quiet anyway), has
    room darkening shades to keep light out, and wears only cotton at
    night (he's sensitive to synthetics).  He was sleeping in fine till
    two weeks ago.
    
    He's not waking up crying.  He's usually just happy as a lark.  We've
    tried telling him it wasn't time to get up, rocking him back to sleep,
    and not going to him at all till he gets hungry (usually an hour later
    between 6:00-6:30.  Usually by then we're awake from listening to him
    on the monitor anyway - so we get him up and have breakfast.  We tried
    keeping him up later - but an extra hour awake at night didn't affect
    his wakeup time - and made mom and dad cranky 'cause we didn't get
    to spend any time together.
    
    He's still really wants his morning nap (most certainly due to his
    early rising), so we're stuck in a catch-22.  Can't eliminate the
    morning nap till he sleeps in - or we will go crazy trying to amuze 
    an exhausted baby all morning.  At that point I bet he'd fall asleep
    in his lunch!
    
    Any good ideas?  
    
         Jim D.
    
    PS - We borrowed Ferber's book, and putting aside what we think of
         the techniques in general, he had no really concrete suggestions 
         for this particular situation.
    

	My kids have been rising earlier for the past week or
	so, too.

	Even with room darkening shades, it still gets pretty light
	by 5:30 or so.  I suspect the morning sun is waking my kids.

	I'm hoping that the time change this weekend puts them
	back on schedule.

	Karen

	PS - The only other time my son gets up this early is when
	his ears are infected.  Is this a possibility ?

	

Next weekend, the clocks get set ahead.  Maybe your bundle of boy
will sleep until 6 then?  I can remember around the same time
last year that I couldn't *wait* to set the clocks ahead because
Noelle sets her clock ahead about 3 weeks earlier than the rest
of the region :-)  And she has room-darkening shades as well.

Another suggestion for those cheerful early risers:  try turning
your monitor lower.  Noelle wakes up earlier than I prefer to 
rise, but she (usually) plays happily in her crib for about an hour.
I turn the monitor so that I can hear whether she's making happy
or sad sounds and I can generally get a little more rest in the
mornings.

Good luck!

- Deb B.

    
    When my son wakes very early (not very often) and is in a good mood we 
    shut the monitor off, stay in bed, and let him stay in the crib.  He's 21 
    months now. When he was younger he would play with crib toys for awhile 
    and fall back to sleep.  Now when it happens he will play with crib toys 
    and eventually yell to get up.  Even when he wakes early but is
    crying/cranky we check to see he is covered and ok, say it is still
    sleep time and leave the room.  He has adjusted to that routine - 95%
    of the time.

    
    
    Wow...I thought Nicholas was just tryiing to torture us!
    For the last few days, he has been getting up around 5am Urgh!
    He happily sings and plays in his crib, so we have just decided to
    let him play until its time for us to get up.
    
    I am looking forward to the clocks changing, hopefully this means that
    he will be sleeping later???
    
    Anne Marie

    
    I think that Ferber does address the early riser.   If I recall the
    subject correctly, it talks about the difference between a child
    who is simply an early riser and one whose final sleep cycle has
    ended prematurely for whatever reason.   I think he says you can
    tell the difference by how early the child wants to go back for
    their morning nap.  If the child wants his nap within a couple of
    hours, there are suggestions on how to gradually work the child to
    rising later by delaying the morning nap.   
    
    I don't have my copy of the book so can't be sure of the details.
    
    Anyways, when I read something like "putting aside what we think
    of the techniques in general", it sounds quite negative to me.  
    There is some part of the book that deals with letting a child
    "cry it out" for increasing intervals of time, but that's never
    struck me as the only theme or technique presented in the book.
    
    Carol

Shruthi has also been getting up about an hour earlier all of last week and this
one!  I would agree with the past few notes that it is the morning sun waking
her up..inspite of the fact that she has dark blinds in her room!  It's not that
much of a problem for us though...she just comes in to our room, says Good
morning and then goes down to play!  Wow, she is all grown up at 2!!

--Chaya.

I have to laugh at these notes every once in a while!  I have a
13 year old who was a very early riser as a small child.  I used
to wish he would sleep just a little later -

Now he gets up at noon! 

Be careful what you wish for - it may come true!  8:)

    Re: Early risers, I agree it could be the sunshine even with
    darkened shades or it could be that he's teething.
    

    I agree that it's probably the sun causing them to wake up.  My
    youngest son (18 months) has been waking around 5:30-06:00 for the
    last few weeks.  Last week, we visited Grandma and slept in the
    basement (DARK!!) - he slept till almost 07:00 every morning!  Also,
    the birds tend to start being noisier at sunrise around this time of year
    (at least at our house!) - and I think that contributes to the
    early rising also.      Lila
    

    
    Well, I got serious one night before daylight savings came and made the
    east facing windows virtually light tight.  I probably could have
    safely developed film in there :^).  It did make a difference.  So did
    the switch to daylight savings!!  I'm betting most of the eary rising
    has been light leakage into the room alerting the little guy that
    play time had begun.  We're learning so much as new parents.  I think
    once the trees in the back get leaves, and now that the window's are
    more light tight - we're going to be fine.  Well, after he get's over
    this fever that's been keeping him up!
    
    Thanks for the suggestions!
    
        Jim (who is learning parenthood = no_sleep, but I love it)
    
    

    I have an 8month old daughter.  She has been waking every night at
    around either 1:00am or 2:00am and again at either 4:00am or 5:00am.
    She has been going to bed at around 8:00pm since she was born.
    
    I have the Ferber book, but I don't like the idea of my little girl
    crying her eyes out.  I am looking for another method to get her to
    sleep through the night.
    
    When I put her to bed at 8:00 she usually will have her last bottle and
    I will either rock her or hug her tightly in my arms till she is
    asleep.  When she wakes at night again I will either rock her and/or
    give her a bottle of water.  And yes I know that she should learn to
    fall back to sleep by herself.  it is just hard to hear her cry.
    
    Well,  Last night, I sort of let her cry it out.  She cried for about 1
    hour before I went to her room and picked her up and gave her a few
    sips of water.  She fell right back to sleep until 5:00pm.  Again, I
    let her cry it out,  but only for a � hour.  Again after a few sips of
    water she went back to sleep untill 7:00.
    
    Does anyone else have any other suggestions besides this Ferber guy.  I
    hate hearing my baby cry very hard.
    
    Thank you!
    Nancy
    

    Well, me being a first-time mother, light sleeper anyways, says
    "Hey, give her a few sips of water right away and go back to bed".
    Seems that's all she wants.
    
    Now, I see my best friend rolling her eyes and saying "are you nuts??"
    		
    						cj *->

    I haven't read "the Ferber guy" but from what I understand, he doesn't
    advocate just letting them cry it out; at first, he has the parent go
    in and check on the child after *5 minutes*, lovingly but definitely
    telling the child it's nighttime and time to go to sleep.  Then another
    5 minutes, etc., and if needed, stretching it to 10 minutes between
    visits.  The child is not supposed to feel *abandoned*.
    
    But even 5 minutes can feel like an eternity!
    
    Leslie

    nancy,
    
    I am one who doesn't believe kids sleep through the night before they
    are 2 years or older.  if you can  get her back to sleep with a few
    sips of water, why not get up?  
    
    FWIW my oldest is 21 years old now, and responding to her wants as an
    infant/toddler didn't seem to warp her, she sleeps through the night,
    is self possessed and a really nice person.
    
    meg

    
    With my oldest son Jason, I developed a bad habit of never allowing
    him to fall asleep on his own.  I gave him an evening bottle - which
    he fell asleep on - and one in the middle of the night when he woke 
    up screaming - which he also fell asleep on.   Jason *never* went 
    into his crib without being already asleep (except at the sitters...)
    This went on until he was 10+ months old; at which point I was getting  
    very tired...   
    
    Ferber's book helped me focus on removing his association of the 
    bottle with sleep.   We were successful at getting him to sleep 
    through the night by feeding him his evening bottle much earlier 
    (before he got drowsy) and laying him down for the night while 
    he was still awake.   He would whimper and cry a little but drift 
    off to sleep in 15 minutes tops   Within a couple of days, he was 
    no longer waking/screaming in the middle of the night.  We had 
    broke his association of the bottle with sleep.  Ferber uses the 
    following analogy to describe sleep associations -  if an adult 
    fell asleep at night with a pillow under their head, when they 
    hit a light sleep cycle they would notice that the pillow (insert 
    bottle, pacifier, rocking in mom's arms, etc) was gone.   It
    would be very difficult for that adult to go back to sleep until
    they figured out what happened to their pillow.   Made complete
    sense to me....also involved *NO* crying/screaming, etc.  
    
    For what its worth, I continued to rock/feed Jason in the middle
    of the night while we were working on teaching him to fall asleep
    on his own at bedtime.  
    
    We used this approach with Alex from day 1 and he's a much better
    sleeper - never wakes at night unless he's sick.   Of course, he
    is a different child....
    
    Good luck Nancy!
    Carol   

Re: .416
Hi Nancy
Maybe you daughter needs to learn how to get herself to sleep without being
rocked, etc?
My daughter Claire slept through the night from 10 weeks until she was 8
months.  Then suddenly she started to wake up at night and cry... she
invariably ended up in our bed.
At her 10 month checkup, I mentioned this change in behavior to the nurse
practitioner. Her response was to ask me how she got herself to sleep in the
first place. Like you, I never put her down to sleep while she was awake;
she would generally go to sleep while taking her last bottle. The PNP's
response was that she thought that was the problem... essentially her view
was that Claire didn't know how to get herself back to sleep without being
nursed or rocked. Her recommendation to me was to always put her down to 
sleep for the night, awake. That I should establish a routine, such as having
her bottle, cleaning her teeth, reading her some books and then putting her to
bed.
Well, I tried that... and the first night she cried for about half an hour.
(I was a wreck) However she did sleep through the night. The next night she
cried for about 2 minutes. The night after, it was about 20 seconds. Now
she nearly always goes to sleep by herself, and when she wakes up at night
she seems to most times get herself back to sleep. (Presuming I only get to
hear the times she doesn't...) 
So, while Claire's sleeping habits before 8 months may have been somewhat 
different from your's, this did work for us and might work for you and
your little one.

Good Luck

Lucy 

    Thank you for all your replies.
    
    I just wanted to clarify my note a little.
    
    Last night, I put Kelci to bed while she was awake.  I gave her the
    bottle earlier than usual.  We sat on the floor and played quietly.
    I put her to bed and she was awake.  She cried for a while and then,
    wimpy mother that I am, I went in to her and gave her the last sip of
    her bottle and she went to sleep.  But while she was crying,  I did go 
    into her room and I did talk to her and I told her that it was time for 
    sleep and I put her music on and I gave her happy lion and mickey then 
    left. 
    
    Then when she woke the first time.  We didn't go into her room for
    quite sometime because it was one of those tired cries that I thought
    she would be asleep right away.  well, she wasn't.  Again, I did go
    into her room and talk to her again and I went in a few more times.
    The crying got worse and worse with each visit.  I did the same thing
    when she woke the second time.  My husband kept telling that she will
    sleep soon.  Both times she cried for about 1 hour even with mine and
    his periodic visits.
    
    I keep thinking how cruel I must be to let her cry like that.  I will
    try again tonight and see if she falls asleep tonight on her own.
    
    I have to add one more thing... In February, she was sick with
    bronchitis and this is when all the waking starting and my rocking her
    to sleep.  She was also teething at that time. She is also teething
    again  now.
    
    Again thanks for listening.
    
    nancy
    

    Nancy,
    
    Is your eight month old talking to my eight month old?  My daughter
    has been waking up at night anywhere between 1:30 and 2:30am for the 
    past couple of weeks.  
    There are two reasons for this:
    1. She is teething
    2. She is hungry.  She is breastfed and I am a firm believer that
    breast milk is the baby equivalent of chinese food.  Sometimes  they
    are hungry after just a couple of hours.  ;^)
    
    Seriously, I NEVER let my daugher cry for more than a minute or  two.
    To me, a baby's cry is the equivalent of an older child calling for
    help.  You wouldn't ignore anyone calling for help, would you?
    
    Why would you NOT go to a crying child to check to see if she was ok?
    There are plenty of babies that don't sleep through the night, I really
    don't think its abnormal.  Give Kelci a drink if shes thirsty, hug her
    if she needs comfort.  
    Try to enjoy the quiet time together.  
    
    Nancy 

	My second is a seven-month-old daughter, whom I still haven't been 
	able to get into a good sleep pattern. So, I can only speak of the 
	experience I had with my son.  

	T. Berry Brazelton has a section in one of his books that 
	describes three reasons why an infant might not sleep through 
	the night.  The first is the active child who might be frustrated 
	at something she wasn't able to accomplish during the day (for 
	example, a child who is about to crawl, and who continues to try 
	once you put her to sleep).  The second is the quiet child, who 
	doesn't really wear herself down enough during the day to be tired.  
	The third is the sensitive child who is easily overwhelmed.  

	My son was in the first category.  He slept through the night at 
	two weeks.  His sleep problems didn't start until he started to 
	get mobile.  At the time, we found that he had a REALLY HARD 
	time relaxing at the end of the day.  After reading the Ferber 
	book, we tried to establish a very regular routine, to help him 
	calm down (read a couple of books, sing a couple of songs, and 
	then kiss him goodnight).  That seemed to do the trick, and it's 
	worked for a couple of years now.

	I haven't figured out what category my daughter fits in yet.  She 
	just seems to need some assurance around 4pm!  Since the Ferber 
	approach doesn't seem to work for her, I was looking in the 
	Brazelton book.  He has the same basic approach, but some 
	additional suggestions.

	  o  Again suggests a relaxing routine before bedtime

	  o  Try to put your child into bed with her eyes open.  

	  o  Reinforce a comfort item that is made to be part of 
	     the routine (i.e. read story to child and teddy bear).

	  o  If your child goes to sleep early, wake her right before 
	     you are about to go to sleep.  At that time, repeat 
	     some of the bedtime routine (give a bottle/feeding, if 
	     you think it is necessary, talk to her, hug her, and put 
	     her back to bed).

	  o  If you decide to calm down your child when she wakes 
	     at night, do so WITHOUT taking her out of the crib (I've 
	     practically had my upper body in my daughter's crib, 
	     trying to calm her without taking her out!).

	The first thing Brazleton says is that you must be sure that 
	both parents agree to the plan, and stick to it.  I'm pretty 
	sure that's where I blow it.  At 4am, when I'm REALLY TIRED, 
	sometimes it's still so much easier to just nurse my daughter 
	back to sleep, then to wait for her get there on her own.

	Peggy

Nancy, 

IMHO, you should go to your baby and feed her and hold her and let her fall
asleep.  You could even bring her to bed with you and fall asleep together.
My first son was *hungry* in the middle of the night.  Once I had fed him,
he could sleep again.  The one time I tried to let him cry and I didn't
go to him for 5 minutes, his leg was stuck and twisted in the crib slats.
I never did that again.

Our second son wasn't treated any differently, and he started sleeping through
the night early on.  I really think it depends on the child.  I also believe
that while you wait for your child to be old enough (for her or him) to sleep
through the night that you as the parent need to be there to take care of
their needs, whether the need is food or security.

     Carol

    
    I guess I'm the "odd man out" here .... 8mos old is still pretty young
    to just "let them cry it out" .... it's too much for both of you!  Is
    it possible that she's just sleeping too much?  If I remember right,
    this is about the age that Jonathan shifted from 2 naps to 1.  
    
    Here's what's worked with my 3 kids;
    
    o Pick a 'rough' bedtime, and be flexible enough to sway it 1/2 hr or
    so, depending on the child's mood and/or how tired they are and what
    else is going on.  
    
    o Try to establish SOME routine that they can associate with bed, and
    be very verbal about it, including "warnings" ... "Oh, it's bed time in
    15 mins".  
    
    o Many people will disagree, but I think it's WELL worth it - get them
    'addicted' to something - a blankie, a stuffed animal, whatever -
    something that they can associate with sleeping, that they can "find"
    again in the middle of the night if they wake up.  Then if they're
    screaming, at least you can give them back teddy and their pacifier,
    and they'll at least feel somewhat comforted.
    
    o Be firm the first time or two that you put them down.  Music is good.
    I try to keep myself emotionally "neutral" - it seems to help.  I say
    good night, give them a hug and a kiss, say I love you, and walk out. 
    I try not to react at all to their 'mood' at the time.  If they're
    crying I just try to act like nothing's happening.
    
    o Wait up to 2 mins.  If they're still crying, I'll go in and see
    what's wrong (sometimes Jonathan whips his pacifier out of his crib,
    and then regrets that!), try to 'correct' it, lay them down, give them
    their 'snugglies' again, do the "good night" bit again, and walk out.
    
    o If they're STILL crying a few mins after that (I don't wait more than
    5 mins), then I will just get them up.  Bring them downstairs, give
    them a drink, maybe a snack, and it's "VERY QUIET!" time.  Maybe they
    can watch tv - usually more likely look at a book, or just sit and
    cuddle and sing a song.  This is NOT 'Get up and PLAY!' time!!  I never
    wanted it to be particularly appealing ..... but I also don't think
    it's a great idea to get them to associate their crib with 'screaming
    their head off'.  
    
    ...USUALLY, if I have to get them up, it's because something really was
    wrong.  They were hungry or thirsty, or just REALLY wired.  Then after
    they've been up for ~20-30 mins, try the whole thing over again.  I
    seem to remember that it always went well the 2nd time.
    
    Similar kind of stuff for middle of the nighttime, starting with the
    "good night" stuff.  
    
    And if all else fails, maybe she's really in pain .... try a dose of
    tylenol 1/2 hour or so before bed.
    
    Good Luck!
    -Patty

    I'm not gloating or smug, but you guys are all making me appreciate
    all the more what a good kid Angeline is.
    
    Since she turned 3 mths she established her bedtime around 7:00.
    She initially woke around 1:00 to 3:00 for a feeding, but stopped
    that before the month was done.   She sleeps, on weekends, from
    7:00 to 7:00 give or take a half hour.   When she wants bed, that's
    it, she wants BED.  No cuddling with mom, no bottle,  nothing - get
    her in that crib!  If she happens to wake during the night, wetting
    the pacifier and giving it to her is all she requires.  If I happen
    to smell a load, I can get her up, change it, and put her right 
    back down.  No complaints.
    
    Of course, weekdays I have to wake her up around 4:30 or 5:00, but
    she generally wakes up happy and smiling.  When she wakes up on
    her own, like weekends, she just lays in there playing and talking
    and having a ball.  I think she'd live in that crib if she could.  
    
    What a kid!   But I'll tell you what, if this ever changes, especially
    since I expect we'll be teething soon, then I'll tell you and you 
    can all nyaaah nyaaah at me.  Ok?   :-)
    
    						cj *->

    cj,
    
    Kelci was the same way until she got sick.  From 2 months we would
    sleep through the night. If she woke up during the night I would give
    her papie and off to sleep she would go.
    
    In February she was teething, had a fever that we couldn't shake and
    got bronchitis.  Her breathing was a little difficult.  I didn't want
    anything to happen to her.   Now she has 2 teeth and is teething again. 
    Her chin is all chaffed and she drools like a water faucet.
    
    But last night was much better.  She went to bed about 8:30 and slept
    till 1:00 then she started to cry, but I gave her papie before she
    opened her eyes. She went right off to sleep.  at about 3:00 or 4:00
    she woke again and mu husband got up.  They were up for about 1 hour
    (or so is seemed).  When he put her to bed she would cry, but we let
    her cry it out and after about 15min, she was asleep until 7:00am.
    
    So I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing and eventually when the
    teething has stopped, I get a full nights sleep. 
    
    Thanks for all the replies and advice.  Also to know that I am not the
    only one who has not sleep a full night in a while.
    
    Nancy
    

    Nancy,
    
    See, I figure I'm in for some fun when starts teething.
    
    I hope not to sound dumb, but if "papie" isn't a pacifier,
    than what is it?  Is it a pacifier?
    
    					cj *->

	Nancy, do you have Ferber's book, or are you following what
	sounds like the Ferber method from what you've picked up in
	notes ?  If you don't have a copy, you might want to pick
	one up (and I've got to return the one I borrowed ;-) ).

	I know I've said this in other notes, but I think it bears
	repeating.

	When a child that has always had a good sleep pattern suddenly
	begins to wake at night, there is usually a reason.  For my son,
	without fail, it has always meant illness.  It took me a couple
	weeks and a well-baby check up (that revealed ear infections) to
	realize that my son's 4:00 am waking was due to illness.  Ever
	since then, as soon as that starts, it's off to the pedi's for
	an ear check.  Out of 10 visits, we haven't wasted a trip yet.

	If you suspect that it's teething, you might want to try a
	dose of Tylenol followed by Oragel on her gums.  The Oragel
	numbs the pain long enough for the baby to fall back to sleep, then
	the Tylenol kicks in after about 20 minutes.

	As for letting babies cry, my standard is always 5 minutes.  I
	found by accident that my son would fall back to sleep if left
	to cry for five minutes.  He sometimes would wake up after 1 hour
	of his nap and still be tired if I picked him up right away.  One
	day when I couldn't get there in time, he was asleep by the time
	I got to him.  That fifth minute seems like it lasts for ten, but
	9 times out of 10, he stops just as I'm climbing out of bed or up
	the stairs.

	Karen

    I have to say that after I put my notes in here Kelci decided to sleep
    through the night.  I don't know what you guys did, but it worked. 
    Thank You!.
    
    cj;  Yes, a papie is what we call the pacifier.
    
    I do have Ferber's book and I have read the sleep association section
    about 3 times.  I did follow it, but only too a point.
    
    As for her teething, I do believe that it has attributed to Kelci
    waking during the night.  She has never had an ear infection, so I
    don't believe her crying was that.  I have taken her to the doctors a
    few times before, thinking it was an infection, but the doctor told me
    I had nothing to worry about.
    
    Again, all is well in the Lento house at night.
    
    Thank You.
    Nancy

    I saw Nancy's comment on how she placed her note and Kelci started 
    sleeping through the night (Magic). Well here goes my note hoping it
    will sprinkle some sleep dust on my 8mo old.  
    
    Brittany has NEVER slept through the night.  Since day 1 she started
    a pattern of only sleeping short naps.  I thought it was strange when
    she was first born (15 -20 min) because both my older girls slept much
    longer than that.  She just didn't seem to need the sleep.  She'd be up
    for a couple of hours then I'd put her down again and boom up in 20
    min.  Now that she's 8mo, she sleeps longer, but still gets up 2-3
    times a night.  I can get her to go back to sleep in about 5-10 min,
    just nursing, so to let her cry for an hour doesn't pan out.  I've
    gotten use to it, but my eyes look like I died 5 months ago.  
    
    I don't have Ferber's book, although my Pedi suggested it.  Because
    she wakes up so many times a night, we put her in the spare bedroom
    away from her 21mo old sister.  Several times she's woken Ariel when I
    let her cry it out, and then I have 2 awake at 2am!  But we are moving
    this weekend to another house which is much smaller and I'm either
    going to have to put her in our room or bunk up with her sister.  
    
    I don't look forward to this move at all.  We've tried cutting her
    daytime naps, but that didn't work. We thought when cereal started,
    she'd sleep all night, but nope.  Giving her a toy didn't work.  
    
    She goes to sleep on her own around 8pm. We started leaving the TV on
    as comfort, but that hasn't worked either.  She also gets her last
    bottle before 8pm, burps, plays a little and then I put her down and
    she goes to sleep.  She does have a problem being in a room without
    either myself or my husband around. Even if her sister is playing with
    her. As soon as she sees were gone, she goes crazy.  
    
    Well, I'm falling asleep typing this. zzzzz  I need more coffee.
    
    Rose
    
    

    
    Hi Rose,
    
    One thing that caught my attention in your note.  It sounded like
    you are nursing Brittany....is that true?   Also, you mention 
    coffee....   I think it's possible for caffeine to be transferred 
    to the baby via breastmilk.   Maybe cutting caffeine from your
    diet would help Brittany sleep better - though probably kill
    you in the process 8^)
    
    Carol

    Hi Carol
    
    	Well unless the 1% in my decafe coffee is keeping her awake, I
    don't think that's it.  My husband and I also switched to decafe
    tea.  I have a soda every now and then, but mostly caffeine-free
    sodas like ginger ale and sprite.  When I say I need another cup
    of coffee, it's for my own sanity.  
    
    	I was going to ween her this weekend also, but with the move
    I think I'm going to wait another week or so.
    
    	I've heard there is small amounts of caffeine in chocolates,
    which are my vice. Anyone else heard of this?
    
    Rose

    Definitely caffeine in chocolate!
    
    				cj *->

    Oh No!!! I bought a Dunkin  Donuts chocolate cookie and took one bite
    while reading CJs reply and dropped it. Now it's sitting on my desk
    calling me!!! Give up chocolate? What we do for our children!
    
    Bye Bye Chocolate. We'll see if it works.
    
    Rose

    Oh Rose!
    
    A D.D's choc. chip????  Um, did you throw it out yet?  I might
    be willing to make an offer!  :-)  What else have you got to
    eat, and I'll tell you if it has caffeine :-)
    
    							cj *->

    I know this may be an off-the-wall thought, but have you tried family
    bedding her?  I have two kids who never slept through the night, and I
    couldn't imagine having to get up with them, when a cuddle and a breast
    would put them out in a couple of minutes.  It has always been much
    easier and I get/got more sleep when I kept them in bed while they were
    nursing and on through for a bit until they felt ready to sleep on
    their own.  
    
    From what I can see over the last 21 years, it hasn't left any of my
    kids overly dependent on me, or warped in other ways.  In fact, in many
    ways I feel that that early closeness left them more trusting that
    there are safe places in the world, and people won't just leave them
    out hanging.  
    
    Meg, on-and-off family bedder for more years than she can count.  

    I know there is a section on family bedding and I've read all the yeahs
    and neys. Who knows we might try it.  Although I will say, I got mad at
    my husband who went grocery shopping and bought chocolate donuts,
    chocolate chip cookies and chocolate swirl ice cream.  UGH!! I don't
     think I have the will power. I tried picking the chips out of the 
    cookies yesterday.  HAHA
    
    Rose  

Good news: chocolate doesn't have caffeine.  

It does have something related to caffeine, though, and I don't know if it 
affects you similarly.  FWIW, caffeine doesn't affect me at all, and chocolate
certainly doesn't keep me awake, unless it's saying "more! more!  I want more!"
:-)
 
    Carol

    Carol,
    
    I don't want to start an argument here, but I do believe chocolate
    DOES have caffeine.  You may look at a chocolate bar wrapper (I looked
    at a Hershey one yesterday, it does not list caffiene, but does list
    it's ingredient as milk chocolate - which to me, is like "duh!")
    and it does not list it outright, but I believe caffeine is contained
    in cocoa.
    						cj *->

<       <<< Note 27.441 by CSLALL::JACQUES_CA "Crazy ways are evident" >>>
<
<                            -< Hmm, are you sure? >-


I'm positive.  If I find the word of what it does have, I'll post it here.

      Carol

I think it's theobromine.  Caffeine in coffee; theophylline in tea; theobromine
in chocolate.  (They're all closely related, with a hydroxy group moved to a
different position on a ring, or something like that.)

	-Neil

    
    This is not just a "parenting" notes file, its a chemistry lesson as
    well :-)
    
    
    

<    This is not just a "parenting" notes file, its a chemistry lesson as
<    well :-)
    
:-)  Yup, and now that I've found that it *is* theobromine that is in both
chocolate and cocoa, I have also picked up some unofficial info that
chocolate has both theobromine and caffeine.  If I can find out the official
answer  :-}  I'll let you all know.

In the meantime, the noter worried about the baby's sleep being affected
can always go off of the chocolate for a week or two (torture!) to test it
out.

      Carol 

My husband and I have not been getting enough sleep at night and we are at 
wits-end due to my 18 month old.  Now, being only 18 months, I don't expect 
her to sleep through the night every night, but was hoping she would be 
sleeping more than she is.

She wakes up like 2x a night and we just can't understand why.  We give her 
some juice or some milk and she falls right back to sleep (sometimes).  She 
has always been a late nighter - falling asleep about 10 or so, and she has 
been down to 1-1/2 hour nap for like 4 months now.  If she sleeps through 
the night, she'll awake at about 6:30 all smiley and we have no problems 
with getting her ready for daycare.  If she doesn't sleep through the 
night, we are kicking her (not literally) at 7:00 to get her up and 
sometimes we let her go until 7:30 until we wake her, then she is a 
miserable sole, and puts up a struggle when we are getting her dressed (
clearly, cuz she is overtired).  One morning, my husband finally had to 
wake her up at 8:30.

Alot of times, we hear her crying in her sleep and then eventually waking 
herself up -- maybe she is having bad dreams.  Last night she woke up (@2am 
and then again at 4:45am) crying heavily and alittle screaming, we couldn't 
figure out what was wrong with her.  We finally got her calmed down and 
back to sleep.

Well, to make a long story short, are there any helpful tricks we could be 
trying to get her to sleep through the night?  Myself, being 6 months 
pregnant, can't take the night after night disturbances.

    We are currently in the "dreaming" stage ourselves.  My son is
    2 now and has been sleeping through the night since he was about
    7 months old.  Recently he has been waking up screeming... like
    terror cries.  It's disturbing to see him like this, but we hardly
    ever take him out of his crib and we don't give him anything to eat
    or drink or else he'd be up all the time.  Just going in to console
    him and tell him we are there, rub his back, and put his music mobile
    one seems to do the trick (the majority of the time). It could be that
    your daughter is starting to have vivid dreams that are waking her.
    
    I feel for you... I can't imagine being pregnant and having to get
    up in the middle of the night.  You must be exhausted.  Is she still
    in a crib?  Does she try to climb out in the middle of the night or
    is she just crying for you? 
                                            
    The only thing I can say is try to just go in and talk to her and
    calm her down.  I would also suggest maybe having your husband go
    in instead of you for a while... maybe she's feeling some anxiety
    about the new sibling who will be arriving and is looking for
    some attention from you.  
    
    When my son has bad dreams or wakes in the night for some reason and
    cries for more than 3-5 minutes, my husband usually goes in because
    if I go in, my son wants "up" immediately.  My husband has much better
    luck getting him to just lie back down and go to sleep.
    
    best of luck... I think that the sleep issues are the toughest on
    families - at least that has been my experience.
    
    julie
    

At 18 months old, your daughter should be sleeping through the night most
nights. (IMO) There will always be the bad dream, etc. but 2x a night sounds
like too much.  I would try cutting out the milk/juice.  If her stomach
expects it, she may wake up for it.  You will probably have a few miserable
nights, but it will probably pay off in the long run (again, this is my
non-expert opinion).  If you get desparate, try water.  Giving her juice or
milk in the middle of the night isn't very good for her teeth, either.
Let us know if this works.  Otherwise, I would check with her doctor.  You
all need your sleep!

Lori

    
    Well, since entering this note, my daughter has slept through the night
    3 of the 4 nights.  What a difference on your body when you can
    actually get undisturbed sleep.  

    RE: .446
    
    You might try asking her daycare provider to further reduce her naps,
    too, maybe back to one hour.  The more tired she is, the more likely
    she will be to sleep through the night.  I'm a lucky cuss, and can't
    speak from personal experience, because Joe slept from 11:30 - 6:00
    from 7 weeks, and only slept longer and longer as time went on.  He
    must have been at least 3 or 4 before we had to deal with the bad
    dreams, etc.
    
    M.
    

	Actually, I think it's just the opposite.

	My daughter has frequent night wakings when she is *over* tired.
	She was a great sleeper from 0-2+ years, but around 2.5 started
	having sleep problems.

	I've been much more insistent and consistent with her bedtime,	
	and she is sleeping better.  When we have a very hectic
	weekend with too few naps, she has trouble going to sleep and
	wakes 3 or 4 times throughout the night.

	Karen

    
    I found that with Alyssa as well.  If she is overtired, she has the
    hardest trouble falling asleep and staying asleep.
    
    Well, she fell asleep last night at 8:00 and pretty much slept through 
    the night, only a couple of disturbances -- but she had her 18 month
    set of shots last night and she was alittle fussy.
    
    

    Aaron (4 months this saturday) is sleeping through the night (8 hours)
    now except for coughing fits.  He had a nasty cold but was over that
    about a month ago.  He's always waken up with nasal congestion, but the
    cough in the middle of the night bothers me.  He goes to sleep bed
    between 7:30 & 8:30 depending on how tired he is, and usually wakes up
    between 3:30 and 5:00 for his first feeding.  But he will start
    coughing anywhere from 12:30 to 2:30 or so.  He'll cough 3 times,
    quiten down, cough a few more times, quite down, cough...I get up and
    check on him and he's still sleeping (until I do something dumb like
    touch his chest to make sure he's breathing all right!)  This will last
    up to 45 minutes before he sleeps soundly again.
    
    He's always had nasal congestion in the morning when he wakes up but I
    wonder if he wasn't "blessed" with my sinus problems and the drainage
    is bothering him in the night.  I also thought it might be the fact
    that he's drooling so much and going down the wrong way.  He sleeps on
    his back (I have the crib mattress elevated a couple of inches, did
    that when he was born, just in case he was "blessed" with my sinuses). 
    If I put him on his side he just flips over, if I put him on his
    stomach he has an absolute fit!  I plan to talk to the doctor about
    this on Friday when I take him in for his 4 month shots (oh what fun..)
    
    I was just wondering if anyone else had a child who would cough in the
    middle of the night but seemed fine otherwise.
    
    sandy
    
    (the good news is he didn't do it last night, the bad news is he woke
    up at 3:30 for his first feeding!)

My son Joel (16 mths) often coughs in the middle of the night without
waking up.  (not for 45 minutes, however)  We suspect allergies.  What
we have done to keep this under control is never let him sleep with the
window open (especially now in pollen season) and wash all his bedding
frequently in hot water (kills the dust mites).

Lori

    
    My daughter, Breanne allways coughed during the night.  It's gotten
    alot worse as she's gotten older.  She would cough a little during the
    day but at night sometimes she'ld cough so much that she'ld throw-up. 
    
    This past winter she got pneumonia and was just sick all the time -
    sometimes coughing so much that she didn't want to put on clothes
    because her stomach muscles were so soar.
    
    She has allergies that cause an asmatic cough.  She now uses an inhaler
    3 times a day and it really helps alot.  I wish that I had pushed it
    with the doctors long ago.  She's 6 1/2 now and has been suffering with
    this most of her life.  
    
    Kirsten
    

    
    I would second the Asthma......
    
    Nicholas (now 18mos) had/still has a terrible caugh, and when it
    happens at night, there is just no controlling it. With an infant, we
    were suggested not to use Antihistimines...not good for the little guy.
    
    After about 3 months of constantly wheezing, croupy caugh, thinking he
    had pneumonia all the time, he was diagnosed w/Asthma.
    
    Since we started the Asthma treatements on a daily basis, and have
    learned how to read the symptoms of an episode, and have a plan into 
    place...we are sleeping through the night more than not!
    
    Doctors are real hesitant at diagnosign "infants" w/Asthma..but push
    it if you think it might be, because he won't get any better w/out
    treatement (mho!)...

    
    I think my son is blessed with my sinuses. He is almost 2. He always
    had nasel congestion at night til ~ 18 months. Now it's only with colds
    or too much dairy or allergic reactions. When he has a cold he
    coughs most of the night.  We now use a humidifier all the time from
    Oct-April.  From the beginning we've kept the head of his bead on
    blocks. I also don't keep too many dust objects in his room and wash
    and vacuum the room quite often. We'll install a room ac shortly, though we
    should be doing it right now because of the pollen. I live in a real
    rural area with a gzillion pollen producing objects.  My allergies are
    much worse since moving here. He has reached the age where he rubs his eyes 
    and forehead and says "eyes". I ask if they hurt and he says yes in a
    sad little voice. Sigh....I dose myself with drugs for the sinuses and 
    feel better but also guilty because I only give him liquid antihistimines 
    when he's really hurting. This past winter he had bronchitis and croup
    and developed eczema. I definitely don't think he has asthma but it's
    fairly common in the allergic person.
    
    Kathy 

    About that humidifier...is he sensitive to mold?  A moist environment
    may feel more confortable to him, but may be contributing to mold
    spores and making it worse.  Just a thought.
    Also, have you tried an air cleaner?  I keep a small table-top
    cleaner/ionizer in David's room.  He also inherited my allergies, and
    it seems to help keep some of the major allergens down a bit. 
    Sarah 

	
	Hi,

	We have a 2yr old who has always been a great sleeper, once she slept
	throught the night, if she ever woke she only needed a pacifier and
        and a pat on the back to fall back to sleep.

	Now we have Stephanie (5months old). Part of me feels like I shouldn't
	even be entering this note, because she does pretty well, but my
	eyes tell me "enter it, there's nothing to lose and maybe I'll get
	some good ideas and less interrupted sleep".

	She has her last bottle at about 7:30/8:00 and doesn't fall asleep
	until 9:00/9:30 (sometimes not finishing the bottle).  Oh, she eats
	cereal and fruit and vegtables now, in the morning and at 6:00pm.
	She wakes at 5:00/6:00 on most days, so I can handle that. This all
	doesn't sound too bad really.  But I'd say 2 - 3 nights a week she
	varies from this nice schedule to wake at 1:30 or 2:00 or 3:00 
	(it's different all the time) and she's hungry! or maybe we're just
	not being tough enough.  First I try the pacifier, that just seems
	to infuriate her, like "No way mom, that stupid thing isn't going
	to cut it - I WANT FOOD"  So then I pick her up and rock her and
	she'll take the pacifier, but she won't fall back to sleep until
	she drinks something.  We've been trying water and  have made a 
	commitment not to give her formula until at least 4am. So far it's
	working okay.  She'll fall back to sleep with water and then if 
	she wakes again and it's after 4am we give her formula. 

	But I feel like we shouldn't even be picking her up, never mind 
	giving her formula.  I guess I'm afraid to let her cry it out because
	she may wake our 2yr old who is sleeping so well. 

	What are your opinions, just keep up with the water or let her
	cry it out? (for how long?) 

	One other thing, with our 2yr old we started putting her down 1/2
	asleep instead of fully asleep around 6months so she gradually learned
	how to fall asleep herself, should I start that in a month with	
	Stephanie too, or give her more time???

	Thanks for any suggestions!
	(I guess we were spoiled by Kristen)
	
	Karen T. 

    From your description, it sure does sound like she's waking due to
    hunger.  Maybe she's having a growth spurt and things will improve on
    their own once she's past it.  You might also try to arrange to get
    something into her tummy later than her current last feeding.  Maybe
    she could have a small snack around 7:00 and would then eat/drink more
    at 8:30-9:00, which might hold her through the night?

    Helping her learn how to get back to sleep by herself is a good idea,
    independent of this.  Since she doesn't go back to sleep when you
    rock her, though, I doubt it'll help you right now with your own
    sleeping.  I think she really needs the food.  I don't think it's a good
    idea to postpone the food until 4:00 if she's waking hungry earlier -
    does she usually wake again if you just give her water at, say, 2:00?
    Or does that often hold her until her normal waking time?

					cheryl

    IMO, if a baby is hungry, feed her.  5-6 months is a growth-spurt,
    mobility-spurt time and she probably needs the extra calories.  They
    are small for such a short time, that a few nights/week of interrupted
    sleep doesn't seem like too much of an inconvenience to me.  
    
    meg

    Aaron is almost 6 months (next Friday). The schedule he's on depends on
    the naps that he has through the day.  If he sleeps a lot (1 1/2 hours
    or more in the morning and at least 1 1/2 in the afternoon) he'll
    usually wake up around 3:30 or 4:00 am to eat regardless of when he has
    his last meal.  If he has a short nap in the afternoon he'll sleep
    until at least 4:30 or (usually) later.  I have to admit, 3:30 is kind of
    tough, but at 4:30 or after I'll just join my husband (who gets up at
    4:30 for work) after I feed Aaron and put him to back to bed.  I'd have
    my husband feed him, but Aaron's still nursing and I see no reason to
    make feeding him more complicated than neccessary!
    
    Last week he strayed from that schedule, waking at 12:30 (and getting a 
    pacifier and song while being rocked) a couple of days, then again at
    2:30 (and I went on and fed him, knowing he'd sleep until 6:00 or
    later) this was regardless of the length of naps.  This was on Tuesday 
    and Wednesday, on Thursday and Friday he woke up around 3:00 am, I fed 
    him and put him back to bed.  Saturday and Sunday he slept until 5:00 or 
    later...of course mom woke up at 2:30, got up to go to the bathroom, 
    check to make sure he's breathing....
    
    Anyway, after such a strange week, on Saturday I checked Aaron's mouth
    and sure enough...I discovered a soft swollen area...he's teething!  I
    give him some tylenol about an hour before he eats, he's eating better.
    Now there are two hard bumps, I figure he'll have at least one tooth by
    the end of the week.
    
    As far as sleeping through the night, I'm with Meg, he'll only be a
    baby for a little while, in 20 years I'll be wondering how he is and
    who he's with and what he's doing, and...I'll want to try to make sure he
    know's he can depend on my being there for him anyway I can, even if it
    means another few years of waking up at 2:30 to make sure he's
    breathing.                                            
    
    sandy

    Natasha ( almost 5 months) also wakes up 1-2 a week around 3-4. When
    she did it on Monday she was starved. She sucked down an 8 oz bottle
    quickly. I think she is in a growth spurt. The sleeper that fit her
    2 weeks ago didn't fit last night. She has been increasing her amount
    of fruit, veggies, ceral and formula. My opinion is if the baby is 
    hungry feed her. Last night was great though, she slept from 9:30-7:00.
    
                                  Alice

    I agree with the previous notes, if the child is hungry I think you
    should feed her.   I don't understand why you would withhold food from
    a hungry baby.
    Nancy

I think I can understand the quandary:

If the baby is hungry, the baby should eat.  But, I've
read of babies getting into the habit of an inconveniently-timed
meal (say, a regular 2 a.m. meal).  This is a pattern that
parents would wish to avoid.  

The problem is:  how can you tell if the baby is *really*
hungry or if the baby has become accustomed to eating
at X a.m.  And, supposing that *this* baby is really hungry
at X a.m. this week, what might a parent do to prevent
the baby from becoming accustomed to a meal at X a.m. ???

What would I do in this particular case??  First, I'd
give her a couple of minutes to see if she'd quiet on her own.
Then I'd give the pacifier a try.  If that didn't work, I'd feed her.  
I don't believe that you can teach a child to not wake up -- 
something is causing her to awaken and the sooner you alleviate the 
cause, the sooner you get to go back to bed. 

Good luck.  Sometimes it seemed like I was better off with a 
pattern -- even if that pattern was regularly interrupted
sleep -- than with anomalies in the schedule.

- Deb B. 

	Karen,

	Your story sounds so familiar to me!  My son was sleeping through 
	the night after only two weeks.  When he started walking, we had to 
	work out a night time routine to get him to relax at the end of the 
	day.  But, for the most part, he has always been a good sleeper.

	My daughter (now 10 months), on the other hand, has NEVER required 
	much sleep.  From the time she was just a few weeks old, I was 
	lucky to get a total of 12 hours sleep from her.  Until only a 
	couple of months ago, she was a regular night time waker.  She 
	would fall asleep some time between 9 and 10pm and wake up around 
	3am.  Once I got her back to sleep, she would wake again with the 
	sunrise, and not be tired enough to go back to sleep again.

	I tried no pacifier (she can take or leave it, but mom likes the 
	convenience when I can't keep my own eyes open).  I tried to get 
	her into my son's regular night time routine, etc.  I even read 
	somewhere that if your child regularly wakes up to eat at night, 
	you can help to set a better sleep pattern if YOU wake them up 
	for one last feeding before you go to sleep yourself.  None of 
	this really made much difference.  She always seemed wide awake 
    	and cheerful (I was always ready for a nap!).

	I'm glad to report that Julie FINALLY has worked her way into 
	a regular routine.  I think the fact that she is more active 
	(crawling, and cruising the furniture) she wears herself out 
	a little better.  I now get almost 14 hours of sleep from her.  
	On a good day, it includes a 10am-noon nap, 3-5pm nap, and sleep 
	from about 8:30pm-6:30am.  

	Hopefully, your daughter will work her way into a good routine 
	as she gets crawling and walking.  But, you may have to prepare 
	youself for a child that just doesn't require much sleep.

	Good Luck!

	Peggy

	I'd suspect teeth or a growth spurt.  Considering that your
	baby has been a "sleeper" all along, this sudden change probably
	has a cause (vs. just a habit).  Taking the bottle could just
	be her way of being comforted from whatever is bothering her.

	I never found my kids to need Tylenol during the day when
	they were teething, but my son wakes every 4 hours (as the
	Tylenol wears off ?) when his teeth are bothering him.  Then
	I'll give him a dose of Tylenol, rub his gums with Oragel, and
	put him right back to bed.  

	It may be worth a try at least once.

	Karen

	Thanks to everyone for your opinions. Especially Deb who I think
	summed it up better than I did.

>	If the baby is hungry, the baby should eat.  But, I've
>       read of babies getting into the habit of an inconveniently-timed
>       meal (say, a regular 2 a.m. meal).  This is a pattern that
>       parents would wish to avoid.

>       The problem is:  how can you tell if the baby is *really*
>       hungry or if the baby has become accustomed to eating
>       at X a.m.  And, supposing that *this* baby is really hungry
>       at X a.m. this week, what might a parent do to prevent
>       the baby from becoming accustomed to a meal at X a.m. ???

	Just so everyone knows, I'm a reasonable mom and
	I would never withhold food from a hungry baby.  My question
	really is how do I know if the baby is really hungry or just 
	needs the bottle to fall back to sleep and as Deb said, if
	she is hungry what can I do to try to help her to not get into
	the habit of eating at Xam.

	Like a few others mentioned, I think
	it just takes time and I'm still trying to mentally adjust to the
	fact that every baby is different.  Since my first daughter slept
	through the night at 6weeks and continually slept longer and longer
	without waking at Xam, I expected the same thing from Stephanie
	and thought maybe I was doing something wrong that would make her
	wake up.  But after listening to all the replies.  I think she
	is just different and no matter what we try, like Peggy said,
         "None of this really made much difference" it's just time.

        So now I guess I'm gradually accepting the fact that Stephanie
	just doesn't need as much sleep and it's much easier getting up
	at 1 or 2 am when you accept that.  She doesn't do it every night
	(that's what made me think she wasn't really hungry) so like I said
	in my base note, it's really not that bad. I just thought I might
	get some other opinions, and I feel better now.

	Eventually she'll sleep longer and until then, we'll try the
	pacifier, rocking, singing, water and finally formula.  She's
	so cute with those big eyes staring up at us, that we can't help	
	but smile (even at 2am).

	Thanks again to everyone!!
	Karen T.

	That's a good idea too.  I'll check her teeth.  Again I have to
	make myself remember that she is a different baby.  My 2yr old
	didn't get any teeth until 6months old, so I wasn't thinking of
	that as a possibility, but she's not Kristen, so maybe she is getting
	teeth now.  I'll have to check her mouth and try the tylenol/orajel
	thing.  If that's it I'll be psyched!!!  But if not, we'll just
	enjoy this baby age, and not wish it away for more sleep.
	
	Thanks,
	Karen T.

    One problem I avoid with Lisa (6 mo) is the pacifier bit, she doesn't
    use one, and comforts herself with her thumb, which has never gotten
    lost at night (plus she has a spare). She's been sleeping through (7:30
    - 6:00am) for about 5 weeks now. Occasionally I'll hear a little cry
    at odd hours, but it never lasts for more then a minute and she gets
    herself back to sleep. I won't go to her until it's a real cry and/or
    been going on for more than a minute. Jumping at every little peep
    isn't going to teach her to self comfort. 

    I also switched her to 3 meals a day about 3 weeks ago, she was wolfing
    so much food at dinner. I give a bottle right before bed, but she
    does not fall asleep drinking it, she always goes to bed awake, plays a
    while herself and falls asleep. I would strongly advise against falling
    into the rock-rock routine to fall asleep, the child will only learn
    that this is what needs to be done before going to sleep. 

    The only switch to our routine comes in this oppressive heat, who can
    blame her if she has trouble falling asleep!

    Gail

>                                ... I would strongly advise against falling
>    into the rock-rock routine to fall asleep, the child will only learn
>    that this is what needs to be done before going to sleep. 

   YMMV.
   
   While this is definately a valid point, I haven't found it to be a
   long term problem with our kids.  Obviously everybody's kids are
   different and unique.  My 3.5 yr old was probably the biggest
   challenge in this area, and she's outgrowing it now anyway.  And it
   was me she fell asleep with a lot of the time, not always her mother.
   If I'm home and my lap is available, she will often want to curl up
   with me and fall asleep, but she is quite capable of going to sleep on
   her own.  And frankly, I really like the time together anyway... :-)
   
   fwiw,
   
   - Tom

    Actually, I knew I was in trouble the night I heard Aaron coughing...
    aaccuuu, accuuu, accuuu...silence...accuuu, accuuu, acuu...silence...
    accuuu, acu, acuuu...long silence.  All the while I'm thinking to
    myself, it doesn't seem to coming from the chest, it doesn't sound like
    he has something caught in his throat, uhoh, he's being too quite
    now...
    
    So, of course I went in to investigate.  And there he was, playing with
    his toes with a huge smile on face, looking at me like "oh thank you
    for coming in to play with me Momma!".  Even when being awoken from a
    deep sleep at 2:30, it's hard to be upset with that welcoming.
    
    So just that night I stayed in the room for few minutes, picked him up, 
    gave him bunches of hugs and kisses, put him back to bed, went back to
    bed... only to have him start it again.  This time dad went in and
    rocked him to sleep!  Fortunately it's only once in a blue moon when he
    wakes up wanting to play.
    
    You just gotta love 'em at this age!
    
    sandy
                                        

>>   If I'm home and my lap is available, she will often want to curl up
>>   with me and fall asleep, but she is quite capable of going to sleep on
>>   her own.  And frankly, I really like the time together anyway... :-)
    
    	re: .471.
    
    	I tend to agree with Tom.  Julie used to LOVE falling asleep next 
    	to me in bed, or being held.  Then, I decided it was time for her 
    	to start learning to fall asleep on her own.  
    
    	Unfortunately (for me, probably not her), now she doesn't want to 
    	fall asleep in my arms anymore.  She enjoys being rocked, but gets 
    	squirmy.  When this happens, she won't fall asleep until I put her 
    	down.  Lots of times I wish she'd just cuddle a little longer!
    
    	Peggy

    
    I need some advice/help...
    
    Our son, Patrick, is 6 months old and started sleeping
    through the night at 10 weeks.
    
    However, the past three nights (and he's done it before
    but not this consistent ) he's been getting up at least 
    twice.  He doesn't wake up crying - mostly just baby talk 
    - and I think the reason he's doing this is because his 
    pacifier has fallen out.  So I get up, go to give him is 
    pacifier and he starts crying.  I try rocking him or walking
    with him to get him back to sleep but this doesn't work and
    I end up giving him his bottle.
    
    My question is:  I had heard somewhere that when a child
    turns about 6 months, they start to become familiar and 
    habbits start to form?  If I keep doing the above, will 
    it become an every night event?  Should I just let him 
    "talk" and see if he goes back to sleep?  Or maybe there's
    something that is causing him to awake (dreams, noises)?
    
    Advice?!
    
    Thanks!
    Kristin
    
    

    Kristin,
    
    If he's just talking, don't go in his room.  If he
    needs the pacifier put back in his mouth, he'll let
    you know by crying.  Our oldest used to wake just as the sun
    came up and babble for what seemed like hours, then go back
    to sleep.  I remember just listening to him from my room
    trying not to laugh, it was so cute.
    
    I suspect his sleep patterns are just changing alittle and
    he's probably just "practicing" his new sounds and "words".
    
    It's only my opinion, but I bet he's crying because you've
    gone in and given him the pacifier and he's *SEEN* you
    "yea! Mom's here, playtime!" :-)...then he's upset when
    you leave.
    
    		Linda
    
    

    Not to brag or gloat, but I'm really so proud.  I can go in
    at night and talk, kind of wake, Angeline - or she can already
    be awake and "talk" to me.  When I leave the room, she just
    rolls over and goes back to sleep or talks for a while.
    
    And my reason for putting this note in is, she does wake at
    times and yak her head off or party with one of her stuffed
    buddies.  But then she's drop off when she's ready.
    
    I suspect your son would do the same.  The hard part is staying
    away when it sounds like they're having "fun".  You just want to
    share EVERYTHING with them!
    
    					cj *->

    I enjoy reading child development books - I like T. Berry
    Brazelton.  In his book Touchpoints he describes exactly
    what Patrick is doing, that is, waking in the middle of the
    night.  The theory is that Patrick is developing so many
    new skills that he is excited about them which causes him
    to wake, but not cry.  This night waking will occur at 
    different milestones, like sitting up or walking, but pass
    if you do not help him develop a habit of waking by feeding
    him.  As the previous noters said, just enjoy listening to
    him talk and he will probably fall back asleep.  I know my
    son Christopher followed the same pattern, and sure enough
    the night waking did stop.
    
    Terry

    Terry,
    
    Thanks for entering that.   For the past week, Katie has been 
    waking and crying about 30 minutes after we put her down for
    the night.  We couldn't figure out why...until I read your note.
    
    When I entered my response re: Patrick, it didn't dawn on me
    that Katie was showing some of the same signs.  She just learned
    how to walk last week!
    
    	Linda

    Aaron started becoming more difficult to put to bed around 4 months or
    so, and I got into a habit of nursing or rocking him to sleep.  After
    his six month shots I decided that it was a bad habit to get into,
    because he was waking once a night and I had to rock him back to sleep. 
    So beginning on a Friday night I nursed him then we danced around the
    room to a song and he got good night kisses from his father, I put him
    in his crib kissed him goodnight and left the room.  He fussed for a
    few minutes, I went back in, let him hold my hand for a minute and left
    again, he drifter off to sleep after that.  By the end of the next week
    he didn't even want a song, just goodnight kisses!  Now he's sleeping
    8:00 - 5:00 or so.
    
    I know this isn't the problem that you're having, but I just thought
    I'd put a note in just incase there's someone who's gotten into the
    same habit to let them know that it isn't really a tramatic one to
    break if you start around 6 months or so.  It also is working for his
    naps, which he used to really fight.  Now all we do is lay him down
    (which is what happens at daycare and he never did complain there!) and
    he drifts off to sleep immediately.
    
    sandy

    I have an 8 month old daughter, who has decided to start giving us
    trouble with bedtime...she slept right throught the night since about
    8 weeks old until now.....We went camping and she had to sleep with us
    in the sleeping bags in the tent....since we have been back (3 weeks) 
    we cannot get her to fall asleep in her bed...so she falls asleep on
    our bed and gets moved to hers but if she wakes up in the night she
    cries and cries and boy does she cry loud now and won't go back to
    sleep in her crib....we never had a problem until the camping trip....
    at the same time she is teething and we can't tell if that wakes her
    up or because she wakes up and we are not there....we are afraid we
    will overlook something more than just a habit we need to fix...any
    help on how to get her back on track.....she will keep crying and
    crying and crying if we don't bring her into our bed until she falls
    back asleep.....any suggestions???? Mary

    
    
    Jonathan will be two years old in a couple of weeks, and for the past
    month or so has had a bear of a time getting to sleep and staying
    asleep all night.  He's been to the Drs many times to eliminate
    anything medical (but gee, he sure seems to have had a lot of "viruses"
    lately! (-:).
    
    I THINK that the problem is he's lonely.  I have my other 2 boys half
    the time, so half the time there's 3 of them in the room, and the other
    half, it's just Jonathan.  Recently we've been spending more time at
    his father's apt which is very small.  Jonathan's playpen is in the
    (only) bedroom.  So, I suspect we've done this all ourselves, and have
    gotten him USED to sleeping with someone, but it's getting
    progressively worse.  Now he won't go to bed to save the world without
    a major screaming fit, and even once he does go to bed, he'll only
    sleep for a few hours before he wakes crying.  Over the past week or
    so, the ONLY way I can calm him down is to bring him into our bed,
    which means that NO ONE gets any sleep (the sideways kid....).  
    
    I've tried a bit of the "Ferber" stuff, but it sure doesn't seem to
    work for him at all.  He just cries and cries and cries, and next time
    he cries just as hard and as long.  Maybe JONATHAN should be reading
    the book??? (-:  Last night I actually had to rock him to sleep, which
    (while it's really nice) is not acceptable to HAVE to do on a nightly
    basis.  
    
    He needs to go to bed around 9:00-9:30 to get the sleep he needs.  And
    he needs to either sleep in his crib (at my place) or a playpen (at
    Dad's).  And he needs to be able to STAY in bed once he gets there - I
    don't mind settling him down once in a while if he has a bad dream, but
    this is simple plain old loneliness ....
    
    I think the first thing we need to do is get the playpen out of the
    bedroom, but then that means we're stuck essentially "going to bed" at
    9:00-9:30, and if he can hear us awake at all, he will NOT go to sleep.
    
    He refuses to go to bed with his brothers (at the same time), but if I
    put him in a little later, and we're still up, he screams his head off,
    and wakes the other two.  NOT good.  
    
    The only "routine" that I've been able to establish with him at all,
    has merely been coincidence, and because he's staying up till we go to
    bed - usually around 11:00 or so.  (Okay everyone can laugh now....)
    Once he watches Wheel of Fortune at 10:00, he's ready for bed. 
    Occassionally he'll stay up till 11:00, but usually by 10:30 he's out. 
    But he NEEDS to be to sleep by 9:00 or so or I can't get him up in the
    morning.  
    
    Short of being a slave to the vcr and taping the show for him to watch
    at 8:30 or so - anyone have any ideas to;
    
    a)establish a new, more acceptable "routine" (and don't mention
      anything that involves "holding" him - he won't tolerate cuddling!).
    
    b)SOMEthing I can do or put near his bed so he's not lonely when he
      wakes?  He already has a pacifier, blankie and stuffed animal ... soon
      there won't be room for him! (-;
    
    c)A better way to get him back to sleep that doesn't involve him
      screaming his lungs out and waking up everyone else??
    
    With my other two, if they wouldn't sleep, I could get them up for a
    little while, and put them back to bed, and they'd be fine 2nd time
    around.  If I get Jonathan up, he thinks he's up "for the day", and
    wants to start a new day all over again .... and putting him to bed the
    2nd time is worse, not better.
    
    HELP!!!  We're exhausted!! 
    
    Patty zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    I think your idea of taping "Wheel of Fortune" for 8:30 viewing is
    *brilliant*!
    
    What about playing his favorite cassettes (music or books-on-tape) at
    bedside?
    
    Leslie

    Well, things are getting better .... maybe it was just a matter of who
    was more stubborn .... (and I finally put my foot down).
    
    Wed night I made it quite clear to Jonathan and Dad! that there was no
    more of this horsing around about bedtime, and I just couldn't keep
    dealing with this because we weren't getting any sleep.  So, (Thanks
    for the hints Peggy!), about 20 mins before bed, I got him washed up,
    got him a cup of milk, and picked out a book.  We read the book, and
    then I counted with him for a while ... all his fingers and toes a few
    times - he *LOVES* to count - taught himself to count to 4 perfectly,
    and he's not even 2!!!!  Sang him the Barney song, and layed him down. 
    Then kicked dad out of the bedroom, and sat on the l.r. couch,
    listening to him howl )-:  Keeping Dad from going in there was pretty
    tough, but we lasted.  After ~5 mins, Dad went in and tried to get him
    to lay down, and turned on the radio.  Jonathan started crying again,
    and after ~10 mins, I went in, gave him a drink of milk (he was all
    sweaty from crying )-:) and some cuddles, and put him down on our bed. 
    As soon as I started to leave, he started to cry, then he got up and
    came out in the kitchen.  I picked him up and told him he HAD to go
    back to bed, and he was okay till I laid him down.  As soon as I
    started to leave, he started crying again, and trying to get up.  I
    told him again that he HAD to stay in bed, but he wouldn't, so I picked
    him up to put him in his bed, and he started howling.  I asked him if
    he would rather stay in my bed, and he said yes, and if he would stay
    there, and he said yes, and so I put him back in my bed, and he rolled
    over, and stayed there.  I checked on him ~10 mins later, and he was
    still awake (BARELY!) but he was still in bed anyway.  He only woke
    once during the night, cuz he was cold, and he went right back to sleep
    (in his bed).
    
    Last night went much smoother.  I told him we were going to read a book
    and go to sleep and he started having a fit crying and saying no, and
    so I said "Well, okay, no book, but you're still going to bed!", which
    just made him cry harder.  So he calmed down and we read the book, and
    counted, and *HE* got up off my bed and walked over to his bed .... I
    almost fell down I was so surprised!  He tossed around a bit before he
    fell asleep, and had a drink, but no crying.
    
    NOW, we'll see what happens this weekend ... with all 5 of the kids in
    one room, it's going to be a little tougher to stick to my guns!  But
    here's hoping .... and if all else fails, there's always Wheel of
    Fortune, right?  (well, not on w/ends! )-:)
    
    THANKS!
    patty
    
    

	Patty,

	I'm glad you're having success.  When Emily first went into
	a "big girl" bed (earlier than I wanted, but Andrew was on the
	way!), we had quite a bit of trouble getting her to stay put.

	As soon as we left her room, she'd get up.  Six or seven times
	in a row was not unusual.  Several times, I ended up sitting on
	the foot of her bed, facing away from her, and waiting until the
	tossing and turning stopped.

	We finally realized that she needed a better bedtime routine.

	We had been reading her stories in the living room, then putting
	her to bed.  This made the living room seem like the "happening"
	place.  When we switched her routine, we made sure the TV was off
	for about 1/2 hour before she went to bed.  Then, we'd go into 
	her room and read a story or two.  Next, the light would be shut
	off (and night light turned on), and we'd say our prayers.  After
	the prayers, we would sing one or two songs (quiet, soothing songs).
	Finally, a last hug and kiss for both Mom and Dad, then sleep.

	After two nights of that routine, Emily was going down without
	much trouble (unfortunately, it took us *weeks* to figure out that
	that's what was needed!).

	We're still following the same pattern (most nights) a year later,
	except that we also spend a little time "chatting" about the day
	after prayer time.  

	Karen

    Well, as soon as I realized how simple this was, and how easily HE took
    to it, I was certainly impressed - and aggravated that I hadn't tried
    harder to "stick to my guns" weeks ago .... but I guess that trial and
    error thing is just a part of parenting, eh?  (-:
    
    He's still doing awesome, and hasn't woken up (and needed us) during
    the night since!!  Of course him being exhausted is certainly helping
    with this I'm sure - I'll take whatever I can get!
    
    

    One thing my sister-in-law did with her son that I thought was a good
    idea, was that laying down in bed was not the goal. Kyle, then under 2,
    had to go to bed (his crib) but could play on his own. The lights where
    out in his room. He used to talk to his animals, play with a toy or
    bounce up and down for some time, maybe a half hour. Then he would
    settle down and fall asleep by himself. But there was never a battle
    over "you must lay down and sleep". When he transitioned into a
    mattress bed on the floor, he still played for a while before sleeping,
    I thought it worked out great. 
    
    Gail

We have a 5 month old daughter, 2nd child. She has a unusual sleep cycle
that is she naps for 35-40 mins (max) and wakes/plays for 2.5 hours. This
is her cycle for the 24 hours of the day. As you can guess we are exhausted
and at our wits end.

Our first child (son) had sleeping probs, but we were able to "Ferberize"
him at about 8 months. Also he differed in the fact that he took long naps
during the day; at least 2 or 3 2hr naps. The problem was only at night.

We tried to Ferberize our daughter, but its not working; she just won't
go back to sleep. We have spoken to her Pedi and she is trying to get us
an appointment at Childrens hospital (with Dr Ferber).

The baby is very mild and happy baby when she awake, she is not cranky,
and looks like this sleep cycle is working great for her. She is/was bring
breast fed, tho she has pretty much weaned herself and eats semi-solids twice
per day. She is not hungry at night, she will drink less than 1 ounce of
milk or formula at any of the waking times.

Any suggestions or advice ?

    Help! I need some ZZZZ's (or intravenous caffeine)!
    
    My nearly 5 yr. old daughter has just decided she's afraid of (fill in
    the blank) at night. Prior to last week, we had virtually no problems
    putting her to bed at night. We had an unvaried routine and, with the 
    exception of one or 2 bouts during other developmental times (2's), she
    went to bed w/o a problem. 
    
    Last week she started waking up at about 3 or 4 in the morning saying 
    that there's a 'bug' in her bed. We've tried everything...Checking the 
    whole room together for 'bugs', ensuring the windows are locked so 
    'they can't get in', telling her they freeze up in wintertime, giving 
    her 'bug' spray (water in a spray bottle), trying to get the cat to 
    sleep w/ her ("stuffed animals won't help because they are not real and 
    don't eat bugs"), snuggling w/ her for a little while (but not til she's 
    asleep) etc. 
    
    Now, it's escalated to the point that she's also afraid of the dark and 
    the noises her baseboard heater makes. The only way she won't go on 
    screaming for 1-2 hrs. is if one of us lays w/ her until she falls asleep. 
    This started last week only when/if she woke up in the middle of the night.
    Now it's happening when we put her to bed too! The only way I got any 
    sleep last night was to leave the light on when I put her in bed; When she 
    woke up at 4, leaving the light on was not an option (her choice) and she 
    would only settle for someone snuggling w/ her 'til she fell asleep.
    
    She knows it's her imagination (distinguishing real/unreal has never been 
    a problem for her) but she doesn't know how to stop the scary thoughts.
    I realize this is another developmental phase (in fact there was a
    recent article in our paper on development of imagination and that it
    was normal for this age...Try using that as a comforting thought in the
    middle of a sleep-deprived night!) How can I help her so we can both get 
    uninterrupted sleep again? 

    maybe a tape played on low?  something with a comforting noise or song?  
    
    meg

    RE: .488
    
    Thanks for entering this.  My 5 year old is also going through it.  I
    had not realized that this is a known phase.  I just thought mine was
    being difficult. She says she's having bad dreams every night and is
    scared to be left upstairs in the house by herself.
    
    We've tried music and storybook tapes with no luck.  We've tried
    lights, anywhere from small night lights to bedside lamps.  
    
    Any other suggestions? Any idea how long this phase lasts?  
    
    Irene

Our almost 4 year old is going through something
similar, bad dreams and monstors seem to be
the problem at our house.

For awhile we had her convinced our dogs job
is to keep bad things out of the house.  We 
took a doggie cookie upstairs and bribed our
dog to search Lauren'ss closet and corners of her
room.  I think this bought us some sleep for 
2 weeks.

Lately she ends up in our bed anytime between 4-7
in the morning, 3-4 times a week.

Something we are thinking of trying is keeping a 
sleeping bag next to our bed.  Our neighbor said
they did it for their son, he could use it 
when he felt like it.  The rule was not to 
wake mom and dad up.

    Come to think of it we did something like that for Carrie.  We had our
    old loveseat cushion next to my bed so she could crawl into it, instead
    of our bed.  it was used a batch at first, and slowly tapered off.
    
    meg

    Thanks for the replys (I LOVE this notefile!) Not that I wish other
    parents sleepless nights, but it's reassuring to see that it's
    happening to other folks and there are some ways to help out that we
    haven't tried yet.
    
    I think I'll try the sleeping bag on the floor in our room. She did say
    last night that if she could come in our room, she'd be o.k. And having
    her sleep w/ us is not an option (even short-term...she thrashes around
    way too much!). Now, if I can get her to agree to no nightlight or 
    bathroom light while she's on my floor (which would keep *ME* awake)...
    
     

I've a video which helped David "The Berenstain Bears - In the Dark".  It may 
still be available in the U.S.



\C

    While a sleeping bag in the parent's room is ok once the parents
    are in bed, what do you do with the 5-year-old who is tired at
    8-8:30 and can't keep the scary thoughts out of his head? I really
    need that time (8:30 til 10 or so) for me, so I really hesitate to
    let him come back downstairs. It is comforting to know that this
    is a common 5 year old phase (And I though it was because I let him
    watch Casper!)
    Sue

    Well, so far, so good. I put a sleeping bag on the floor in my room
    last night right near an outlet w/ a nightlight. We did the usual
    bedtime routine in her room (books and songs w/ her little sister). I
    told her that I would like her to try to go to sleep in her own room
    but it was o.k. to get up anytime and move to the sleeping bag. Rules
    were no noise and no waking up mommy or daddy and no other light but
    the nightlight in my room. Worked like a charm. Not a peep out of her
    at bedtime or during the night. (She was in there before I left her
    sister's room, though!)  
    
    If that didn't work, I would have told her that I would let her stay in
    her room/bed w/ the light on 'til she fell asleep and she could come in
    if she woke up during the night. Didn't want to set up a pattern where
    my light had to be on during the night! I guess I got to the point that
    it didn't really matter if she was in her room w/ the light on or off
    as long as she was quiet and resting in her bed (i.e. not playing!).
    
    

    Go to your local library and get the book "Solving your Child's
    Sleep Problems".  Excellent book.  Thumb through it and find the
    relevant advice to apply.
    
    The book worked great for our 8 month old (who simply wanted/was used
    to being picked up in the middle of the night and nursed) -- that took
    2 nights to overcome.  He has never woke up again (now 2+ months). 
    
    Our 4 year old still wakes up sometimes.  But the advice in the book
    was great.
    
    Betty

    I have a 6-year old and 3 1/2-year old, both of whom have occasional
    sleep problems described in this string.
    
    My 6-year old sometimes tells me he can't sleep because he has scary
    things in his head.  Part of our nighttime routine is to tuck Daniel
    in, then let him read/look at books in his bed until he's tired enough
    to go to sleep.
    
    On the scary thoughts nights, I sit with him for a few extra minutes,
    and try to get him to visualize something fun, then I let him pick a
    few extra books, and tell him he can keep reading until he has no more
    scary thoughts.  That seems to do the trick.
    
    He also sleeps with his light on every night, and his room is
    downstairs.  If he's still awake when we go upstairs, sometimes we keep
    the TV on low, so he has "company" downstairs.
    
    My 3 1/2 year old is harder to keep in her room, and for the past few
    months, we've struggled with her at bedtime -- she's afraid too.  For
    the past few nights, I let her sleep with her light on, on the floor
    near the doorway to her room.  I promise her that I'll finish my
    cleaning as fast as I can, then I'll come upstairs to bed.  She tells
    me how much cleaning I can do, then she's satisfied.  By the time I'm
    done with my work, she's usually fast asleep, and we transfer her to
    her bed.  If she's not asleep, I take the opportunity to turn in early 
    with a good book or magazine, so she's not alone upstairs.

> I've a video which helped David "The Berenstain Bears - In the Dark".  It may 
> still be available in the U.S.
    
    Good book, too, and I know you can find the book.  Right at my reading
    comprehension level, too...
    
    Glenn
    

    
    Help!
    
    Our 18-month old son, Alex, has been waking up around the
    middle of the night the past two nights screaming at the
    top of his lungs.   He will not lay down in his crib - even
    if I lay on the floor next to him.   He is not in pain as
    he is quiet the second we pick him up and hold him or rock
    him.   He also had his ears checked just Wednesday at his
    18-month checkup and all was fine.   His eczema has been in
    a flare-up lately - but he doesn't seem to be itching or 
    rubbing when he's waking up.   It just seems like he doesn't
    want to be left alone in his room.  
    
    Any ideas?  Nightmares? Just a phase?  Bring him to bed with us?
    Thank God that our older son is a heavy sleeper! 
    
    Carol

Carol,

It could still be his ears.  My son has had many ear infections and so his
symptoms ALWAYS include waking up in the middle of the night screaming.
Because the pain from an ear infection is mainly caused by fluid in the
ear, my doctors told me that it is felt most when they are lying down. 
This could be the reason why your son stops the moment you pick him up.

Also, we had brought my son in for one of his check-ups (12-month or so?)
and his ears checked out fine.   That night we ended up in the emergency
room of the hospital where we found out that my son had a raging ear
infection.  My doctor said that they can come up that quickly?!  Not sure
about that or whether he just didn't check them that closely, but after 15
ear infections (my son is 19 months old), I make sure they do a thorough
job of checking his ears.

/Karen

    re: Carol, I don't know what it is, but maybe he's been talking to
    Jonathan? (26 mos).  Almost every single night for the past ?month?
    (feels more like a year!), he wakes up around 5 or 6am, *DEMANDING*
    mom.  *DEMANDING* to go downstairs.  Bring him downstairs, lay him on
    the couch, and he's fast asleep within a few mins.  Anything else means
    he's up for the day (along with everyone else).
    
    The solution's pretty simple, but whatever is the real cause of this is
    making me absolutely BANANAS!!!  I LIKE to wake up in my own bed - and
    when I put him on the couch, I feel I have to sleep downstairs w/ him,
    less he get hurt.  He's too young (falls off) for a bed of his own, and
    I don't think it's "just me" that he wants, because he refuses to come
    into my bed.  So, what's so great about downstairs?!?!  Especially if
    he just falls asleep again, for up to 3-4 hours.
    
    Kids!
    

    Gee, Patty,
    
    How come Jonathan doesn't do that stuff when I'm there???  
    
    				;->
    					
    (I know, I know, I'm not there at 5:am....)

    
    Because when you're there he doesn't get to BED till 5am! (-;
    
    hahaha ....
    
    

   RE: .502, Patty,
>                        -< The children are possessed! >-
>
>                                         Bring him downstairs, lay him on
>    the couch, and he's fast asleep within a few mins.  Anything else means
>    he's up for the day (along with everyone else)....
>
>                                     I LIKE to wake up in my own bed - and
>    when I put him on the couch, I feel I have to sleep downstairs ...
>
>                  So, what's so great about downstairs?!?!  Especially if
>    he just falls asleep again, for up to 3-4 hours.
>    
>    Kids!
    
   Hahahahahahahahahahahaha..... I have one of those!  Hey - have you
   been evesdropping at my house?!
   
   My 3.5 yr old daughter is like that... she's in her own bed, and she
   still does it... if I can stay awake long enough I can usually get us
   both back to our respective beds, but that's a tough call some days.
   I don't get to bed before 12mid most nights, so at 2am or 3am when she
   rouses, I haven't had much sleep, and its really tough to stay awake
   long enough to get back to bed...  I can't count how many mornings
   I've found myself on the couch, or in the recliner or even on the
   floor on a blanket.  
   
   Oh well... this too shall pass... I suppose soon enough I'll be
   sleeping on the couch waiting for them to get home instead!
   
   -Tom
   

    Help!
    
    Marc (8 this month) has developed a problem:
    
    Over the past two weeks he has come awake at night and "can't fall back
    asleep". He wanders into our room, asks for me and tells me he is awake
    and can't fall asleep, he is usually crying from frustration. I tell him 
    to relax and return to bed. This may happen 2 or 3 times in a night.
    
    Two weeks ago it started and I thought that the weekend we were
    planning that involved him taking skiing lessons for the first time was
    making him nervous - he told me he was nervous. Well the weekend is
    past (and he had a blast) so that's out of the picture. My wife did slip
    into his bed one night that he had been out of bed about five times -
    so maybe he is trying to get her to do that again (I told her I thought
    it was a bad idea- and wish she hadn't given in). Last night she told
    him (3rd time he was up) to stop trying to cry harder and he didn't
    have an answer. 
    
    This is a heck of a routine he has fallen into and it messes up
    everyones sleep.
    
    Any suggestions/hints/ideas?
    
    Thanks
    JR
                                         

    
    I remember when I was about 10-12 I started having trouble falling
    asleep.  I used to be literally AFRAID of not falling asleep, 
    convincing myself that something awful would happen if I didn't
    fall asleep.  I would work myself up so much that I wouldn't
    fall asleep.  Then I began to realize something.  One, if I
    got no sleep that night I wouldn't die, nothing awful would
    happen other than being tired the next day.  That helped get rid
    of the anxiety of falling asleep.  I then learned to recogize the
    signs of falling asleep.  When you are drifting off, your mind
    starts thinking strange things.  Then you might snap back into
    awareness.  I would be encouraged by this... thinking ok... now
    my mind is wandering... this is hopeful... soon I'll be asleep
    and soon I was!  
    
    To this date, I have problems with insomnia.  It always happens
    in periods of high stress.  Typically, I don't have a problem
    falling asleep when I first go to bed.  But then, around 3AM
    I wake up and just can't go back to sleep.  I try blanking my mind,
    reading books and many times nothing works.  Reading books
    really isn't such a good thing because it may get your mind
    off the problems but once you stop, whatever you are worrying
    about will come back to bother you again.
    
    Usually, the night after a sleepless one, I sleep just fine.
    And when the stress lets up, I'm fine again.
    
    It sounds like your son has talked himself into this problem.
    If he is not stressed about something in particular, then maybe
    he is only stressed about not sleeping.  So get him to realize 
    that its ok if he doesn't sleep.  Once he stops worrying about
    what will happen if he doesn't sleep, he'll probably fall asleep!
    
    Karen
    

    re .506 ... hey!!  That sounds just like me if I drink caffeine after
    about 9pm.  Is he having pepsi/coke with dinner??  
    
    Try making his bedtime later?
    
    Give him something to do when he DOES wake up.  They say it's very bad
    to stay in your room if you can't sleep, because you learn to associate
    your room with things OTHER than sleeping.  Move all non-sleeping
    activity OUT of the bedroom.
    
    Tell him, if he can't sleep, go downstairs, and get a drink, and lay on
    the couch and watch TV or something.  He'll probably fall asleep
    watching tv, and he won't be disturbing you.
    
    And, as suggested, he's probably stressed about something - see if you
    can figure it out.  Cute girl in school?  Has he had a bed-wetting
    accident? (maybe he's afraid of it again?)  Sleep in TOO late recently,
    that he's concerned about oversleeping?
    
    Lastly, perhaps when he wakes up, he has no CLUE what time it is, and
    thinks that maybe he should wake up.  By the time he gets out of bed,
    he's too awake to go back to sleep when he realizes it's still the
    middle of the night??  I CAN NOT SLEEP in a room without a clock.  I
    wake up, and if I can't check the time, I PANIC, get up, find out what
    time it is (usually around 4-5am!), and then I'm too awake to go back to
    sleep.  Reading in the middle of the night wakes me more because I'm
    somewhat rested, so I "get into" the story, instead of getting tired.
    
    Set a clock with BIG numbers, and tell him he shouldn't get up till the
    clock says 6:30 or later. (or till the first number is a 6 or higher,
    if he can't tell time yet)
    
    If all else fails, you can toss a sleeping bag on the floor in your
    room, and tell him he can lay there if he gets up in the middle of the
    night.  At least then he doesn't wake you, and may feel 'comforted'.
    
    

    My kids know that if they wake during the night, they can crash on our
    bedroom floor. There are extra pillows if they forget theirs, and a
    comforter on the exercise bike/hanger.  Usually I hear them when they
    come in, but one night recently I woke up in the middle of the night
    and when I went to get up I almost stepped on my 8yr old!  A nightmare
    woke her up and somehow she'd managed to get into the room w/o waking 
    either me or my husband, and curled up on the floor!  Scared the blazes 
    out of me!  Actually, it scared me more that I _didn't_ hear her.
    
    Makes the kids feel a lot better if they know they can come in if they
    can't sleep and Mommy/Daddy won't kick them out -- they're just not
    allowed in our bed till the alarm goes off.
    
    Sandy

Hi,

We recently had a problem with our 6-year old not wanting to be alone in his
room and staying awake until 10:30-11:00 PM.  He said he was afraid of snakes
and spiders and couldn't get them out of his mind.  Though the situation is 
slightly different, some of the techniques we used might be helpful.

We tried the following things, at the advice of the public school psychologist:

- Try to find out what the child is afraid of.  Assure the child that you
  understand that he is afraid, but there is nothing to be scared about.  Tell
  him he is safe, and you will always make sure he is safe.

- Buy a special pad of paper and markers for bedtime use only.  When the child
  is scared, he may draw and write about what is bothering him.  Tell him he
  must stay in his room and you will look at his drawings and stories in the
  morning, so you can discuss them.

- Teach the child relaxation techniques such as deep breathing and 
  visualization.  

- Each night at bedtime, follow the same routine and remind the child of the
  "tools" (the 3 items above) that he can use.

The above ideas worked somewhat for us; the number of times Daniel called us
decreased and he fell asleep earlier (10-10:30), but it wasn't enough.

The school psychologist then suggested using either a consequences or reward
system.  In this case, we decided to use rewards, since we use consequences
for other undesirable behavior during the day.

I bought Daniel something he had seen in a store and wanted badly (an 
inexpensive coin bank bubble gum machine), and told him that if he went to bed
without fussing and stayed quietly in his room all night, that he would get
the bubble gum machine in the morning.  It worked!  The next night we got him
a book, then a coloring book.  He missed one night, but did great the other
nights.  We praised him.  Then we went with a sticker system.  One sticker for
each night, and a prize after 5 stickers.  He's been doing great.  

It seems that what started as a fear of something he saw on TV or read in a 
book, turned into a going-to-bed phobia.  Now, Daniel goes to bed without
fussing and falls asleep at around 9:30.  

Good luck,

Sheryl


    

I have a similar problem, but with a 2-yr.-old, so I don't know if the
pad/pencil idea would work, but this is getting to be a recurring nightmare
so I'll try anything!  She sleeps from 11pm-8am and has a 1-2 hr. nap...

History:

o Moved to a new home in late October...
o Morgan turned 2 a week later (her older brother is 4.5 and goes to bed
  around 9:30, after books and a few minutes talking with 1 of us)
o Had to move her to a bed since she was climbing out of the crib a week later
o Had the whole family over for Thanksgiving a few weeks later
  (by this time, she was sort of getting used to sleeping in her own bed)
o Somewhere in here she was exposed to the Star Wars Trilogy and other
  Superhero videos her brother adores...(she acts fine, but who knows...?)
o Her dad's job was changing and requiring intense amounts of time away
o Another "change" was that the daycare (family) now picks her up in the
  morning at 8am (since they drop their daughters at school 2 blks. from us)
  and she has be fine about this except lately she is only up for 15-30 mins.
  before she is "whisked" off since of course she's so TIRED and hard to wake!
o Went away for a week at Xmas to "grandma & grandpas" - all 4 of us slept
  in one big room - and she didn't go down very easily or stay down very well
o Got home and the first night was fine, but the 2nd she was up constantly
  and crying/saying her ear hurt, so sure enough the next day the dr. diagnosed
  her 2nd-ever ear infection. So for a few nights, she was held much more at
  bedtime and "pampered" more if she woke up
o [Daddy's new job with the startup company officially began after New Year's;
  Mommy had a business trip for 4 days - Morgan got sick the night I left!]
o Since then, so for a month and a half, she has not gone to bed on her own
  without a hell of a fight (and usually is up til 11pm when she finally conks
  out). Usually I lose patience and she screams "I want Daddy!" or "I want
  to go on the couch and watch t.v. with you" so I go to bed and my husband
  waits her out and gets her down (he's calmer and more patient than me -
  plus he's much stronger for holding a squirming, stubborn, 32-lb. child).     
  However, I've noticed that if I end up putting her down (i.e. if he's still
  at the office), it's still 11pm but she doesn't wake up and stumble into
  our room at all, whereas if he puts her down, she will "visit" us about 4-10
  times a night!

What we've tried:

o Reading various books on sleep - all say the child has to learn to fall
  asleep by herself so if she wakes up at night the conditions will be the
  same (i.e. she'll be alone) - I should say I've done the readings, not we ;-)
o Ignoring her and letting her fall asleep on the couch - then moving her
  to her bed (only works temporarily, then she runs to our room all night)
o Taking everything "SCARY!" to her out of her room
o Getting the "routine" down: bath, pjs, brush teeth, books, lights out
  (works to calm her down but as soon as the last book closes it's ZOOM,
  she races for the door saying "Not bedtime, play time!"). I should note
  I start this process around 8pm, and bath is usually every other night.
o Telling her she's safe and we're nearby - just call if you need anything
  but stay in bed (works occasionally, but not consistently)
o Letting her come into our bed if it's after 5am
o Putting the lock on the outside of the door and telling her she can have
  the door open if she gets up in bed - in the Ferber method of prolonging the
  duration of each attempt (this worked for my son, but only appears to get
  Morgan more upset). Just to clarify, I don't lock the door all night, just
  for 5 minutes at a time to try to get her to stay in her room/get in bed.

Some suggestions I've had from friends but haven't tried yet:

o Set up a "bed" area for her either at the foot of our bed or in the
  "office" right next to our room (so she's closer)
o Put a "magic bandana" over her eyes and tell her that will help her sleep
o Play music in her room as part of the bedtime routine
o Put an Indian "spellbinder" over her bed to ward off nightmares

Anyone have a similar experience with a 2-yr-old! What worked? How long did
this "phase" last? I am getting so tired of being tired (and of the "ripple
effect" this is causing on the rest of our lives)... I even called a parents
"hotline" (from work one day) but the nurse said I was trying all the "right"
things so she could only refer me to a sleep disorder clinic where I would
have to make an appointment and see the specialist. I'm not convinced we
need that, but we do need something!  I know she's had a lot of changes in
the past 3 months, but it seems to be taking too long for her to get the
hang of this nighttime routine. Thanks for listening - I don't expect
there's a universal "magic formula" for this, but I'm getting desparate...

-Cori

    Not sure if this will help, but we're having the same problem with
    my 3 yr old son:
    
    1) There's a book called Go Away Big Green Monster by Ed Emberley.
    It has a monster face appear, feature by feature, then go away,
    feature by feature. The last page of the book is "Go away Big Green 
    Monster! And don't come back (until I say so!). It has seemed to 
    help a little in letting him gain a little control over the
    situation.
    2) He used to want to come back downstairs. That turned out to be a
    disaster in many ways. A week ago, I moved a comfy chair into his
    room, and now I stay there until he falls asleep. Takes about 
    a half hour. At least he gets to sleep at a better hour now 
    (and I have half a hour to read!)
    3) When my older son went through this we had him paint a paper
    plate -- a monster mask -- and hungit on the door handle. It
    was supposed to scare the monsters away. For him, that was all
    it took.
    Good luck!
    sue
    

    I think this is an issue that depends on the kid.  By and large, my
    son goes to bed really well, although we do have occasional off
    nights.  Some of my observations are that the off nights occur when we
    try to rush bed time, that being consistent will eventually pay off,
    and that excessive reassurance can back fire.  My pediatrician
    explained it to me this way.  Young kids (especially two-year olds)
    are concrete thinkers, and they follow your lead. For example, if you
    say to a child, "We're going to see Dr. Smith, he's a nice man, he
    won't hurt you," the child knows something is up because you would
    never say "We're going to see Grandpa, he's a nice man, he won't hurt
    you."  So, if you make elaborate attempts to control monsters in your
    childs room, they may think there is something to the monster
    situation.  Of course that's dependent on the kid, because I've heard
    lots of stories where reassurance and anti-monster dust has worked
    (case in point is Sue's son's monster mask).
    
    When my son was having a rough time with bad dreams, I started by
    being really sympathetic. I'd lie down with him and tell him that I'd
    keep him safe and so on, but things got worse daily, and soon he
    wanted me to stay with him all night.  I decided that was ridiculous,
    and I told him too. The change is subtle, instead of "I know you're
    afraid, but Mommy and Daddy will keep you safe ..." we say in an
    equally sympathetic voice "just a bad dream, love you, see you
    tomorrow" and get out as quick as we can hoping that if we don't act
    concerned, he'll get the message. Initially he protested but would
    quiet reasonably quickly.  Now night waking is really rare.  I also
    talked to him about what our bedtime routine was going to be during
    the day, then we really stuck to it.  He still tries to stall (like
    taking forever to pick what books to read), but by and large it
    works. I don't think this is the answer for every kid, but it is yet
    another thing to try.
    
    Good luck.
    

When we went through this with my older daughter we found that 
starting the routine early actually worsened the fight.  It seemed
that once she got into the fight, she could not get herself out
of it once she got tired.  We finally started working towards bed
when we noticed her showing signs of being tired.  We would then
spend about 30 minutes going through the routine and she would
fall asleep.  Then, we started doing things to cause her to get
tired earlier.  This was things like earlier waking hours, more
physical exercise at night, etc.  Doing this we finally got
her in bad by about 9:30 instead of 11:00.

Also note, just because your older child needs lots of sleep, the
younger one may not.  We had this fight with a daycare teacher
for a full year.  Our pedi tells us that anywhere from 8 to 14
hours of sleep within a 24-hour period (including naps) is
considered normal for children of this age.  So, if she gets
a 2 hour nap at daycare and wants to sleep 11-7, that's 10 hours
during the day and well within the normal range.  He said to find 
out what her body needed we should let her go a week going to 
bed when she wanted, getting up when she wanted and napping when
she wanted, then take the average for the week.  Basically, she
will do what her body requires.  After that, you just have the
challenge of getting her what she needs on a schedule that is 
acceptable to you.

Good luck!

Irene

    
    Well, I decided to wait before I put in my "help" note, but it's going
    on 3 months now and now change. My daughter Lara, will be 2 on 1-Mar,
    was moved to a toddler bed last November due to her climbing out and
    sleeping on the changing table in the middle of the night. I expected
    a transition period where she would get out of the bed...cause she
    could. Well, then she had the Chicken Pox so there were a few
    all-nighters and sleeping with Mom on the couch. So back to square one
    on the transition period. Well, it's now been 3 months and she's still
    going strong. Basically what's happening is this: she goes to bed just
    fine (maybe has to be put back once or twice, but no major problems
    here). The problem is she wakes up anywhere from once to four times a
    night and comes to our room. I put her right back in bed, she has a
    drink of juice/water and she goes right back to sleep. How do I break
    her of this habit??? Do I gate her in and have her flip out cause she
    can't get to me?? I have no problems getting her back to bed. I don't
    have to stay with her or anything. It just seems that when she wakes up
    during the night she just automatically comes to our room. I'm at a
    loss as to what to do. Any suggestions??
    
    Patty

    
    According to the Ferber book giving them food or drink at night-time
    will train their bodies to require nutrition at that time of the night,
    every night.  So, a good solution would be to always give her water,
    never juice.
    
    .....................beth

    
    I have been thinking about switching to water only. Just need to push
    myself to remember to do this. My older daughter went through a period 
    like this, but she would wake up, grab the juice/water (within reach)
    and then go back to sleep. Lara knows where it is, but comes and gets
    me. She's a bit younger, so that could be it. I'll also make it more
    easily acceptable. I think it may be a bit out of her reach.
    
    Patty

    We had this problem with Joe, too, when we first switched to "big bed",
    although he never climbed out of his crib, he just got too
    lo-o-o-o-o-ong for it.  I finally put a clock radio in his room, left
    the radio on softly all night, put his drink closer to his bed, and
    also gave him a special "guardian" stuffer.  I told his this one was
    just for nights, and would guard him and his room till morning.  This
    was a four-foot stuffed bear that had actually been a gift to *me* from
    a male friend years prior.  It worked well.  Joe would waken, take a
    drink, grab "Papa Bear", and go right back to sleep.
    
    The only exception was if he had a bad dream or didn't feel well.  To
    this day, at 7, Joe will still come to get me if either of these wakens
    him, and we will take to the couches in the living room, him on the
    love seat, me on the couch.  I think this is shortly to end, however,
    since Joe can only sleep on the love seat now if he props his feet on
    one arm and his head on the other - too lo-o-o-o-o-ong again -:)!
    
    M.
    

    We just went through this about 1 month ago w/Nicholas. We switched
    him to a "big boy bed" because we are expecting #2 anytime during the
    next month.
    
    What finally worked for us was a "sticker program". We put a calendar
    on the door to his room, and purchased some dot stickers, and drew
    smiley faces on them. Every night before we went to bed, we explained
    to him that if he spend all night in his bed, he would be able to put a
    sticker on his chart. We also explained to him htat afte x-amount
    of stickers, he could go to the store and buy a new book.
    
    After about 1 month, we don't need the sticker chart any more, but use
    the stickers as rewards for other things.
    
    Nicholas is 2 yrs old, and seemed to understand this concept.
    
    Before this, he would be up at least 4 times a night and only let MOMMY
    put him back to bed, if the gat was up, we would have a screaming fit.
    It took a lot of patience, but, so far, we have been successful.
    Another thing we did was the first time, we make it 3 stickers for a
    little book, then it was 5 stickers, then 10, then we didn't have to 
    use any rewards.
    
    Of course, I realize once the new baby comes we are going to slide
    backwards.
    
    
    Anne Marie

Hi -

Bridget is five months old and has been sleeping through the night since about
10 weeks. She usually goes to bed around 8, and I had been waking her at 11
to nurse before I go to bed. She would sleep through consistently until
7 or 8 a.m.

She seemed less and less interested in that 11 pm feeding, so I decided to
see whether she would go without it. The first two nights, she slept through,
from 8:30 to 7 am. The last two nights, however, she's been up at 11:30 pm.
This is after nursing when I get home around 5:30, cereal about an hour later,
and nursing again before bed. I just started the cereal, so she's not taking
very much, but she really likes it. I nursed her both nights, and she went 
right back to sleep.

I'm surprised at the 11:30 waking. If she wakes up at all, I would expect it
to be around 4 am. 

Is this a sign she still needs that 11 pm feeding? Or, am I setting a bad pattern
by nursing her back to sleep? 

Thanks for the advice,

Kate

    It might be a growth spurt. Or she may indeed be looking for some
    nursing comfort. See if you can delay or avoid that nursing, perhaps by
    rubbing her back.
    

    
    Well, I've been giving Lara only water at night now, she takes a sip
    and goes right back to sleep, but she's still getting up. Friday night
    she did sleep all night (so I know she can do it!!). We'll give the
    only water (of which she only takes a sip and sometimes refuses) at few
    more nights and then I'll try the sticker system. I too haven't tried
    the gate cause I figure it would just make matters worse, i.e., get her
    all upset and we would be up half the night. If the sticker system
    doesn't work, we may have to grit our teeth and try the gate.
    
    Patty

    
    So, a little off the question but I was wondering .... what's the
    oldest your child was, when moved from the crib?  Jonathan's 2 1/2, and
    while he likes to sleep in my bed, he ADAMANTLY DOES NOT want a bed of
    his own.  The only reason I care at all, is because he seems to be
    getting sort of big for the crib.  he does not, and never has, tried to
    climb out, so I'm sure he's not in any sort of danger .... just curious
    what the average "older" age was ....
    
    Thanks!
    Patty

    My older boy came out at 2.5, not because he was climbing, but because
    of size.  We made it a special thing for Xmas, put a big bow on the bed
    pieces and hid it in the garage, etc., and even though he'd never
    really wanted it, he was thrilled because Mom, Dad and Santa all said
    he was "big boy" now, not a baby anymore.
    
    M.
    

    
    Oh yeah .... (dur!) that was what's brought it to mind more recently
    ... Jonathan's been walking around bragging about his CRIB!  Mommy's
    bed, Jason's bed, Chris' bed, JONATHAN'S CRIB!!!  "Do you want to have
    a bed too, Jonathan?"  "NO!  Jonathan has a CRIB!!  MOMMY has a bed!"
    and so on ... just seemed a little odd... (-;
    
    

>>    what's the oldest your child was, when moved from the crib?

Josh is 3 3/4, and he doesn't want to have anything to do with his bed (at
least not for sleeping).  It's been in his room for months, he's tried it a
couple of times, but always went back to his crib an hour or two later.  We're
going to force the issue pretty soon by getting rid of the crib.  Leah, on the
other hand, was somewhere around 3 (maybe 2 1/2) when she moved out of the crib
(to make room for Josh).

						Brian

    Christopher is 4 1/2, and still asks me periodically to put his crib
    back up. He moved to a toddler bed at 3 1/2.
    

    Update to .506
    
    Well, like most things - this problem has disappeared. I really can't
    think of a cure (nor the original problem!). I did start letting him
    stay up just a bit longer, maybe 15 or 20 minutes. 
    
    Maybe he is just getting older and needs to be up later to be truly
    tired. 
    
    As he gets older, how did some of you folks adjust bedtimes?
    
    Marc (8) is in bed @ 8 p.m. and I read a story or chapter to him till
    8:20 or so and he is in the dark by 8:30 most nights. Friday night is
    special and he gets to stay up till 9:30.
    
    How does this compare to others bedtimes?
    
    Thanks for the notes and support.
    
    JR

    I'm having a similar but opposite problem.   Angeline is really
    getting pretty ticked off with her crib.  She really wants to
    sleep in the bed.  At first (and mostly still...) I thought it
    was to sleep with me, but she has been happy to sleep in it
    herself.   I've been thinking about slapping up the old rails
    and letting her, but she has not learned the danger of heights,
    walking off a bed, flipping over rails, leaning into a bathtub, etc...
    
    I've been in a quandry since Christmas about whether or not to
    get her out of the crib.  She can get out of the bed fine, although
    not into it...hmmmmm maybe I just answered my own question.   Perhaps
    I should just wait until she can get in and out on her own.   
    
    							cj *->  

Our kids sleep on mattresses on the floor.  One side is against the wall,
the other side has a bed rail.  They don't have far to fall.

    Take the bed out of the frame, put the mattress on the floor ....
    
    re: Others ... PHEW!  Glad to hear those other ages .... now we can
    rest easier - plus the crib fits a lot better in the room, than another
    bed would!
    
    As for the other question about bedtimes .... Chris(10+) and Jason(8)
    go to bed at 8pm every night, except Friday and Sat.  They usually pass
    out by 9 or 10 on those nights.  They're getting to the age of "calling
    it themselves" when they're tired.  If it's been a late Friday and Sat,
    Chris is usually looking for a nap by Sunday afternoon ...
    
    THANKS!
    Patty
    
    

    Joe (7 yrs, 8 in June) is supposed to go to bed at 8:30 p.m., which he
    usually manages to stretch to 9:00 before sleeping, using every trick
    we used when we were kids, and a few we never thought of.  Weekends and
    vacation days he gets to stay up till 9:30 p.m., and only hassles us on
    that when he (sometimes) remembers that Ren and Stimpy doesn't come on
    Nick here until 10:00 p.m. (Ugh!! Boy, am I happy about *that*!!)
    
    M.
    

    My nearly 6-year old goes to bed around 9, but FREQUENTLY doesn't fall
    asleep until 10:00.  On weekends she's been known to easily stay up
    till midnight if we are having a party.
    
    And she gets up and is pleasant at 7:00.  She is in a private
    kindergarten and does take a nap (at school only, *never* on weekends).
    We're hoping that once the naps stop this summer she'll go to bed a
    little earlier.  
    
    My mother tells me that I was much the same way.  I usually get about
    6-1/2 to 7 hours a night and function quite well this way.
    
    My sister, whose family of 4 liked to sleep a *lot*, got one of these
    non-sleep types as a third child.  They are having problems adjusting
    to one of the adults having to get up/stay up with the non-sleeper.
    
    judy

For the first time in 9 months, I've now slept til 
morning for two straight weeks (well, with the 
exception of one night..) !

On the strength of a number of testimonials in this 
topic, I was finally able to convince my wife we try 
ferberizing our then 8.5 month old. Previously, Sarah 
would on average wake one or two times a night, 
each time requiring a bottle to fall back asleep. That 
was two weeks ago.  By night three, all three of us
were sleeping through til morning.  My only regrets are
(1) that we didn't start earlier (the earliest Ferber
says to start is 6 months). (2) we miss feeding and 
rocking our daughter to sleep (we have found, however,
we can still do this occasionally for her daytime naps,
without impacting her nighttime sleep behavior).

Tom

   

    It's great isn't it?  Sounds like our story.  My son is
    now 3 and has great sleep habits, except he wakes a little
    early in the morning sometimes (5/5:30).  We ferberized
    at about 8 months, and we also said to ourselves, why
    didn't we do this sooner!  Glad it worked for you too.
    Getting uninterrupted sleep makes such a big difference.
    
    

>    We ferberized
>    at about 8 months, and we also said to ourselves, why
>    didn't we do this sooner!  

    Perhaps this was already discussed...and I missed it.

    Could you briefly say what this means?
    thanks
bob

    
    my note was in response to .534 -- agreeing that we
    wished we had tried the Ferber method sooner since it
    worked so well... When my son was 8 months old, he was
    still waking up once per night.  After 4 nights, he
    was sleeping through!
    
    If you are asking what the Ferber method actually
    is, I believe it is dicussed earlier in this string
    of notes.

>    Perhaps this was already discussed...and I missed it.

>    Could you briefly say what this means?

Buy the book. But basically ...

At the core of Ferber's system is the notion that infants
don't have a problem _falling_ asleep, they have a problem
_putting themselves back to_ sleep.  All the child has
known, to fall asleep, is that they've been rocked with a
bottle in their mouth, and they've associated this as being 
necessary to fall asleep.  When they wake up in the night 
(as we all do), they need the environment reproduced by which 
they came to sleep previously.

So Ferber advocates putting your child down awake, without
bottle, without pacifier.  Let them cry for, say, five minutes
the first time, and then go in and reassure them for two 
minutes. Leave for ten minutes, reassure for two... Leave for 
fifteen, reassure for two...

With Sarah, we found it helpful to (1) leave her door open 
with the hall light on; (2) leave toys in her crib with her;
(3) establish a regular schedule (7:00 bath, 7:30 reading,
8:00 bed).  The first night (dark room, closed door) she 
cried for 80 minutes ... that was a tough night!  The second
night (door open, hall light on, toys in crib), she cried
20 minutes.  The third night she babbled and fell asleep after
10 or so minutes.  5-15 minutes is now the norm.  She may
wake up and cry in the middle of the night, but its lasted
no more than a couple of minutes, and each case, she's put 
herself right back to sleep.

I am actually embarrassed to put this in here since Dylan is our 3rd child and 
we SHOULD have known better, but at 15 months old he was still not sleeping 
through the night.  Would wake up just SCREAMING.  So - we went to the local 
library and checked out all the books we could find on sleeping (it only took 
us 15 months but hey- at least we got there).

Lo and behold the Ferber book did the trick.  It was SO EASY!  Since he was 
our baby (and our last) I really enjoyed rocking him to sleep every night.  
Well, when he woke up in the middle of the night, we wanted me to come in 
there and rock him BACK to sleep.  We followed the books steps (as outlined in 
previous notes) and 2 nights later, he was sleeping through the night.  We're 
in week number 2 night and we cannot believe it took us this long to figure it 
out.  Now I am waking every night at 2am and having trouble going back to 
sleep but I think I'll be able to get back in the swing of things REAL SOON!

Cindy

I have a five month old daughter and every night around 9:00 we try to get her
to sleep and every night she fights it.  I thought after a while it would become
routine, but it hasn't.  I am sure she will out grow this but not sure how long
it will take.  I feel bad because I feel like I am forcing her to go to sleep.
Any ideas?

    We have 8 month old twin girls and we did what most of the
    books and pedi's say....let them cry it out.  We started this
    back when they were 3-4 months old and it only lasted for a 
    week or so.  Now they usualy fall asleep without crying first
    ...although there are some nights or nap times that they do
    cry but usualy not for long (5 minutes or less).
    
    The key is to get your daughter to learn how to get herself to
    sleep on her own.  Some of the books say that some kids just need
    to cry first.  Not sure if she sleeps through the night for you
    but if not this will also help that.  So when she goes into a 
    light sleep or wakes up in the middle of the night she can get
    back to sleep on her own.
    
    The other thing we did was get a night time routine.  We do the
    baths and then they have thier cereal and bottle and just spend
    a little quiet time sitting with us and then to bed.  They go down
    between 7-7:30 at night and sleep most nights till 6-6:30 a.m.
    
    How long is it taking her to "fight" it?  Are you letting her fight
    it in the crib or are you holding her?  Not everyone is for letting them
    cry...but it worked for us.
    
    Well, good luck
    
    Deb (Jordan & Brooke's Mommy)

    I seem to recall this topic many moons ago but cannot find it now.  And
    since I do not frequent this conference often I hope no one minds if I
    post my note in this topic.
    
    My 2 1/2 year-old daughter was moved to a youth bed a few months ago. 
    My wife, being a worrisome sort, was concerned that she could fall out
    of the bed during the night so we pulled from storage the bed rail used
    with our son some years ago.  One side of her bed was against a wall,
    the other we used the rail. 
    
    Unfortunately, however, this bed rail was not intended for use with
    that particular type of bed -- the "legs" (for lack of a better term)
    used to secure the rail were intended to slide between a boxspring and
    mattress but her bed has no boxspring and no solid bottom (mattress
    sits on a series of rails going across).  So the rail would not remain
    secure.  In fact, one evening we awoke to cries from our daughter where
    the rail had slid away from the bed and she'd fallen between the rail
    and the bed.  So we removed the rail.
    
    Now our problem is that our daughter wants to sleep on the floor.  She
    fell out of bed one evening and my wife, worrying that it may happen
    again, placed a thick comforter on the floor beside the bed.  Since
    that time, our daughter now climbs out of bed (taking her dolls,
    pacifiers, blanket, etc) and lays on the floor, regardless of if the
    comforter is there or not.
    
    Though not really expecting a change, we have asked (and told) her not
    to sleep there -- the other morning we found her directly over the air
    vent and she's already got a slight head cold -- but she continues.
    
    I know that "this too shall pass" but perhaps someone out there has
    a personal remedy they would like to share...
    
    Thanks!
    
    -Andy

    Andy,
    
    The only cure I have is time, and to either put her mattress on the
    floor where she is comfortable for a while, or to leave the comforter
    down there so she can shift onto the floor when she wants.
    
    meg

    
    Survey says??
    
    How old was your child when they stopped napping?
    
    Jonathan is 2 1/2.  On the weekends, he never naps (unless we go for a
    long car ride, and then he usually only sleeps 20 mins or so).  He goes
    to bed around 8ish, and wakes up around 12 hours later.  Perfect to me.
    
    During the week, his daycare insists that he takes a nap.  Usually he
    sleeps about an hour there, from 2-3:00pm.  If he takes a nap, he's not
    tired at all, and refuses to go to bed till 10 or later.  Sticking him
    in his bed and making him cry it out is just cruel, in my opinion.  The
    kid is NOT tired.  It's not at all a matter of him not "wanting" to
    sleep - he'll happily sleep when he's tired.  He's just plain old, not
    tired. 
    
    BUT if he stays up till 10 or 11pm, then he can't get up in the
    morning, and feel rested.  If I force him to get up, he's exhausted and
    cranky all day, and they have a lot of problems with him.  He'll end up
    sleeping 2 hours that day, which only makes the evening worse than the
    night before. 
    
    If I let him sleep in a little later in the morning, he's still short
    on sleep, AND he's not tired by naptime at the daycare, so he doesn't
    take a nap.  Then I pick him up, and he's still short on sleep, and
    getting tired and he'll fall asleep at 6-7:00 because he's tired, BUT
    then he'll wake up at 2-3am, hungry and rested.
    
    I personally, think that he just doesn't need the nap, and it's totally
    messing this up.  The long weekend was all the proof that I needed, and
    by Monday he was on a great schedule - no nap, bed around 8pm, up
    around 7am, it worked wonderful for all of this.
    
    The daycare insists that he must take a nap.  Or at least lay down for
    1 hour.  Problem is if he lays down for an hour, he ends up falling
    asleep (probably from boredom!), and they let him sleep however long he
    wants.  Is it reasonable for me to expect them to keep him up?  They
    say that it's a state law that they HAVE to lay the kid down for an
    hour.  Is that true??  I can understand "quiet time", and maybe putting
    on the TV or have him color or look at a book, or drive his cars - he
    understands the need to be quiet, and will behave.  But does it really
    say he has to LAY DOWN??  
    
    This is becoming very disruptful to our whole life and family, and as
    long as they insist on sleeping him, I can't see another "cure".  He
    really doesn't need the nap - he does fine on the w/ends, and he plays
    much harder on the w/ends than he does during the week.  
    
    Help!!
    
    FWIW - his 1/2 brother Gregory, is 4 1/2, and he sleeps about 6-8 hours
    a night, and that's all he needs.  They're certainly their father's
    sons!!  My other 2 boys still need a solid 10-12 hours, and I can't get
    by on less than 8 (and that's taken YEARS to whittle down to that!).
    
    Any other thoughts about this???
    
    THANKS!
    Patty

    We have the same problem with daycare.  We've even had one teacher
    lecture us on my 5 year old being cranky just before nap because she
    didn't go to be until 10-11.  After taking a 2 week vacation, we were
    convinced that sleep wasn't the problem.  She gets like this when she
    is hungry.  It was just a coincidence that daycare took naps
    immediately after lunch.
    
    As for what's required by law, I'd call the state regulating board and
    ask.  I've called them before and have been surprised how cooperative
    they are.  Also, if it's the law, your daycare should have a copy of
    the state guide book for licensed facilities.  Ask them to show you
    where it's written.  I know there has to be some out on that.  I know
    of one child who's doctor cut out naps because of sleep problems and
    daycare complied.
    
    Now, my 2 year old is the same as you're seeing.  All day on weekends
    she's out going with the older kids with no nap.  She goes to bed
    around 8:30 or 9 and gets up at 8:00.  During the week, she gets a 2
    hour nap, goes to bed at 10:00 and is up between 7:30 and 8.  For my 5
    year old, it's even worse.  On weekends she's up at 8:00, goes all day
    and hits bed around 10:00.  On weekdays she's up between 7:30 and 8,
    takes an hour nap, and goes to bed around 11:00, sometimes after me!
    I'm just praying for Fall when she starts kindergarten and looses the
    nap!
    
    Irene

    RE: .-1
    
    At least in Mass, there is no specific law that says you need to have a
    nap.  If the child has outgrown a true nap, then "quiet time" is called
    for.  My wife requires this in the afternoons whne the younger kids are
    sleeping.  Quiet time includes, reading, coloring and that type of
    activity.  Usually, this also means "alone" time.  Avoiding competitive
    games usually means that the activity level remains quiet.
    
    Dan

    FWIW - I spoke to my sister who has been doing daycare for several
    years in Massachusetts and she says there is no law in Mass. that
    states that a child has to lay down for any period of time.
    
    She suggested you look for a daycare that's accommodating to YOUR
    needs!
    
    /kmu

    RE: .-1
    
    You are correct.  In re-reading my initial reply, the choice of words
    suggested that quiet time was the law.  This is not the case.  What we
    have found is that a period of quiet time is beneficial for the child
    in general.  We practice this with our kids as well.  A period of time
    to unwind is always a good thing.
    
    Dan
    
    P.S. This time gives the provider a chance to "unwind" too.  This is
    especially important during rainy days.

    My daycare center is in NH and they say there is a state law that
    requires a nap.
    
    Once a child is "graduated" and in the summer program before they enter
    first grade, the nap is dropped to get them ready for a full day of
    school.
    
    judy

    I know my daycare drops naps for kindergarten.  For Pre-K they cut from
    2 hours to 1.  About a month before Pre-K moves to kindergarten they
    cut the nap from 1 hour to 30 minutes as sort of a phase out.
    
    Irene

    
    When Kevin was stared going to daycare at Mulberry Childcare he was
    almost 4. He was definalty ready to stop taking naps but their policy
    was everyone takes a nap. He only went 3 days a week so it wasn't to
    bad. But on the days he napped it was h*ll trying to get him to bed at
    night. He just wasn't tired. I though it was unreasonable for them to
    require 4 & 5 year olds to nap. Fortunately I was able to change
    because my MIL retired and started taking him . What a difference.
    
    I don't know how much luck you'll have finding daycare that won't
    require a naptime until the child is at least 4. Maybe if you talk
    to your current provider she'll make an exception for you. But I 
    honestly think they do it as much for themselves as for the kids.
    (not they I blame them!)  I know I'd have a hard time doing daycare
    for a living, it takes a lot of patience and structure. I enjoy the
    time I have with my own kids (and wish there was more of it) but for
    me I'd have a hard time taking care of other peoples children.
    
    anyway, good luck, I know the feeling of being ready for bed before
    my kids are!
    
                         Barbara
    

    
    We'll see what happens today ....
    
    I made it quite clear last week that this is REALLY getting to be a
    problem, and that I hoped that we could really work together towards a
    solution.  
    
    After laying there for an hour yesterday, they finally let him up, and
    he didn't get a nap.  He was a little tired from the w/end, so he went
    to sleep around 7:30 last night .... and woke up at 6am this morning,
    in one of the BEST moods he's been in, in a long time.  
    
    Hopefully they'll do the same for him today.  Chances are, since he
    woke up so early, he'll be more apt to want to lay down around 1-2pm,
    I've asked that they don't let him sleep longer than 30 mins.  We'll
    see what happens.  I'm guessing  that, if they insist on napping him,
    if we could get it to be 1/2 hour, in the 1pm time frame, that'd work
    out about right.
    
    It also bothers me that they're lying to one of the other moms about
    what they're doing with her child's sleep schedule.  Although she says
    that he's sleeping great now, and they haven't done anything different.
    
    Yes - they said that they do it for themselves .... So that they have
    time to unwind, and do things that they need to for the daycare.  I
    don't blame them for that - but if there are already a couple older
    kids up and out, what difference is one more??  And besides that, why
    can't he just sit up and play quietly?  Doesn't make sense to me.
    
    I'm glad I never ran into this with the other two!!  Geez, if they had
    the time, I think they'd both be willing to continue naps now!!  
    

    ALl during preschool, and still during kindergarten, there was a rest
    period.  When David was young, he slept most of the time.  But the
    center always made provisions for kids who just weren't sleepy.  They
    were allowed to go to a separate room, an audio tape of kids songs was
    always playing, and each child was given a mat and something quiet with
    which to play - books, puzzles, etc.  They weren't allowed to talk to 
    each other, however, so the expectation was that they were having 
    some quiet time.  Maybe a suggestion of this type would help? Is there
    another room that could be used for a 'quiet play' room?
    Sarah

    
    	Actually, the "quiet play room" idea caused problems for
    	us!  Our sitter allowed one of the children that option, and
    	my daughter decided she didn't need her nap any longer, either.
    
    	Unfortunately, she did, and we paid the price each night.  
    	When the other child moved on to preschool, Emily went back	
    	to taking her naps, and we returned to sanity.  I sympathize
    	with Patty, but also with the daycare provider, who is trying
    	to keep all parents happy.  At my daughter's preschool, all
    	children must lay on mats during naptime, whether or not they
    	sleep.
    
    Karen
    
    	

    
    
      I have a question.  And I'm sorry if it sounds nasty..but I have a
    problem with the daycare center telling any parent what has to go on.
    Escpecially if its not a law.  Who are these people watching the child
    who need to unwind. Don't they get a break time?  Their getting paid to a
    job. I do understand that it can be stressfull watching childern...
    but if thats the case, why are they doing that kind of job???
    
    renee..who's child has in home care...

    Even though I don't work in a daycare and never have, I can understand
    their needing rules and regulations to follow.  Everything needs to be
    clear and consistent.  If a parent doesn't like the rules, they can
    then either work to change them or change centers.
    
    At my center, the only time the teachers get a break is during naptime. 
    The state is very strict about staying within ratio, and as a parent I
    like that the center follows it.  Plus, as I understand it, in NH it is
    a state regulation that the children have a rest period.  When our
    daycare takes a field trip, the children have their rest period in the
    morning to meet this obligation.
    
    I suppose it is possible for the center to have one extra person to
    help maintain the ratios appropriately so that a teacher can take a
    break while children remain awake, but that would add to the cost. 
    I'm already paying over $1200 a month for two kids and I don't think I
    or many other parents could afford more.
    
    judy

    Well, things haven't gotten any better.  I may as well speak to the
    wall for all the good it's doing me .... I got there last night, at
    5:45 and he's in a crib, sound asleep ... WTF?!?!  Well, he was tired
    around 5:00, so we laid him down, and he fell asleep.  Great!!  So
    obviously he was up until 1am this morning.  Which meant that neither
    of us could wake up this morning.
    
    It's time to have a SERIOUS talk with the director, and consider other
    alternatives.  I really hesitate to move him into a home-care, because
    in a year or so I'm going to REALLY want him learning lots of stuff -
    more structured.  His b.day is Sept 20, so I'm not sure when that makes
    his start date for school - not sure what the cutoff is.  If he's a
    year later, then maybe it's not such a big deal.  
    
    I understand that they need some time to sort of "regroup", but I can
    not understand why they can't just let him sit and play quiet, or if he
    falls asleep, wake him after 20 mins or so.  And the really aggravating
    piece is that I can ONLY get him "straightened out" on the w/end, so as
    soon as they mess it up during the week, he's messed up for the rest of
    the week.
    
    I'm not comfortable that they're always within their ratios. 
    Occassionally I'll go there, and one of the women have left to run to
    the store or something, which leaves 1 of them with ~20 kids.  Nothing
    that I'D want to do, that's for sure!!
    So, any recommendations for daycare around Nashua??  Exit 5 or south
    area.
    
    Thanks!
    Patty

    At 16 months Marisa began to jump out of her crib. We eventually had to 
    get her a big girl bed because these leaps out of the crib became more
    and more regular.  She did fine for about the first two months but
    lately she has been fighting going to sleep at night even though we go
    through the same routine every night before bed.  When we put her to
    bed, once she realizes that my wife and I are not there she starts to
    scream and then wakes up and walks around half asleep and crying. 
    Lately, we have been bringing her into bed with us to fall asleep but 
    I don't want to get into that habit.  My next step is to buy a gate for
    her bedroom door and see how she does with that. Can anybody suggest
    something else that might help.
    
    Thank You
    E.S.
    

    i have no advice, if you are looking for not having her in your bed. 
    Frank and I have family beeded both our kids, and I family bedded
    Lolita (daughter from a previous marriage.)  Seems like when they are
    ready, they prefer not sleeping with parents anymore.  
    
    With Lolita, a move coincided with a comfortable 2nd bedroom in the
    apartment.  However when I moved into a less comfortable place she spen
    quite a few nights with me until we found a home with a "good feel"
    (Lolita's own words)  
    
    Carrie slept with us on and off for quite a few years, mostly on a pad
    in our bedroom after age 3.  We were doing extensive remodeling from 6
    months to 4 years, and often there wasn't any other place to sleep but
    near us.
    
    Atlehi is also dealing with extensive remodeling mode, as well as a
    serious lack of space and mom's crazy hours.  On nights like tonight
    when I telecommute she bounces between my office (which was Lolita's
    room) and our normal bedroom.  I usually sleep close to the terminal,
    when I have pager duty, and Frank sleeps in our bedroom where the
    activity level is more suitable for sleep.  (no insistant beeps from
    the pager, no late phone calls and no Meg bouncing out of bed to make
    clicks on the keyboard and talk to strange people in the middle of the
    night.)
    
    Atlehi is looking forward to moving into Carrie's old bedroom once we
    put in the basement and finish a room for Carrie.  
    
    One thing I have learned.  Kids don't sleep with you forever, but
    sometimes it seems that way.  later on when the side of your bed has no
    little people in it or beside it it seems awfully empty.  My kids are
    spaced far enough apart that I do know the emptyness.
    
    meg
    
    Atlehi

    I'm looking for experiences with "night terrors."
    
    Actually, these "mini" nightmares seem to be occurring during
    my son's 2 hour nap during the day.  His day care provider
    tells me that he shrieks and then rolls over without waking up.
    Since we've experienced it at home, I know what she's talking about.
    
    He's a cuddly happy little 2 year old guy.  What demons could he be 
    fighting?  What should I do?  (He has very little language and
    can't respond if I ask him if he's had a bad dream.)
    
    Could it be teething pain (his 2 year molars?) or something else?
    
    Any advice appreciated.
    Tara

    Tara, we've been going through these night terrors with my 6 year old
    since October.  The doctor said they start anywhere from 2 to 7 years
    old.  You are not supposed to wake your child up or talk about the
    dreams, they don't remember them.  Kyle has(had) them after being
    asleep for about 2 hours at night, really freaky, he did always
    recognize us but whatever was frightening him must have been really
    terrifying.  He would come running into our room screaming/jumping up
    and down/get on our bed and jump wildly/talking nonsense/eyese WIDE open
    but was asleep.  Would be talking fire inside him, sometimes vomit.
    It would last between 15-30 minutes (seemed forever) and then he'd break
    out into a clamming sweat.  His t-shirt would be drenched, then he'd be
    in a deep sleep.
    
    The doctor said to talk with Kyle in a calming voice and hug him,
    sometimes we couldn't even hold him down.  My biggest concern was that
    he'd end up falling down the stairs.  I have a little write-up the doctor
    gave me that I'll forward to you.  Sometimes overtiredness can bring them
    on but the doctor said there was no real explanation.   He did say they
    could treat it with valium(sp) if they continued but we haven't had one
    for 2 weeks now.
    
    Good luck these are very frightening,
    Julie                     

    Julie,
    
    Has anything changed in the last weeks to "make them go away."
    
    Overtired - that makes sense.  Nick has been on a big growth spurt,
    eating up a storm.  Maybe he needs more sleep.
    
    Thanks, and do forward the write-up!
    
    Tara

    
    	When Emily went through terrors (between 2.5 and 3), they
    	tracked with overtiredness.  I think they may have
    	resurfaced around 3.5, when Emily tried to quit taking
    	her nap.
    
    	We usually ended up waking her all the way, only because
    	at the time, we didn't know what they were.  When we
    	woke her all the way, she got quite hysterical, and needed
    	a bit of cuddling before she could go back to sleep.  Then,
    	she'd lay down and be asleep in seconds.
    
    	The only remedy we found was making sure she got enough sleep,
    	through earlier bedtimes and encouraged naps (with sticker
    	charts, and rewards on the days she took a nap).  Side note:
    	we still reward a nap with a later bedtime.  It works for Emily,
    	and even at almost 5, we find she still really needs them.
    
    

    RE: a few
    
    Realize that with nite terrors, the appearance of being awake is
    common.  In our case with my son, we could talk to him and he would
    respond, although not necesarily coherently.  These episodes started
    when he was about 3 and continue to this day (age 8). As time goes on,
    the frequency has decreased so that they are rare now.  They are
    usually triggered when overtired.
    
    Similar to the handling of an epileptic epidode, just make sure that
    injury is avoided.  Holding on to my son usually works (getting harder
    though).
    
    Dan
    (Been there...)
    

    I recently read dr Ferber's book on 'How to solve your childs sleep
    problems' and it has a whole section on this and what/what not to do.
    I'd recommend it.  I don't remember what the advice was specifically.
    
    Michelle

    Tara, I mailed the article to you.  Four weeks now without a night
    terror.  What we've done different is making sure Kyle gets enough
    sleep, no chocolate after 6:00pm, no scary shows and he now has a cup
    of Sleepy Time Decaf tea w/ crackers & peanut butter before he goes to
    bed.
    
    Julie
    

    Does chocolate affect children's sleep?  I know that their is caffiene
    in it but does it make them have nightmares?
    
    Thanks..
    
    cj

    I'm also having a lot of problems with Emilie sleeping.  She is now 2.9
    and every night she has nightmares which wake her right up.  She tells
    me exactly what she's seen when she's been asleep and it's never
    anything really terrifying.  She say's a car, a stawberry, a dog etc
    The problem is that she wants me close to her so I have to get into her
    bed until she falls back to sleep.
    
    It occurs about 4 times a night which is very disturbing for me. 
    Eventually I let her come into bed with me and she settles OK.  It
    seems she wants to feel that I am there.
    
    She has a regular nap of 1-2 hours every day and she is usually in bed
    by 8.30 pm.  Any earlier then she's not tired enough to go to sleep.  I
    don't give her chocolate or sweets during week days as this does create
    nightmares and restless nights.
    
    I've resigned myself to thinking it's just a phase - this has lasted
    about 3 weeks now.  
    
    Any suggestions welcome
    
    
    Kerry 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I'm having a bit of a problem getting my 8 month old daughter, Alycia, 
    to go to sleep at night. 
    
    She's been sleeping through the night since she was 3 weeks old.  Once
    she's asleep at night, she stays asleep, so that's not the problem.
    
    The problem is getting her to go to sleep.  She seems "wired" still by
    9:00 pm.  She takes a nap from 9-10 am every morning, and from
    ~1:00-2:30/3:00 pm.  She was taking a 4:30-5:00 nap, but I've cut that out
    in the last week to see if it helps.
    
    It hasn't helped so far.  She isn't getting to sleep until around
    9:30-10:00.  Also, I can't just lay her down to sleep, because she
    screams her head off so that she gets herself even more worked up (I've
    tried letting her cry it out, but half an hour later, she was still
    wailing).  I have to hold her on my lap for a while to get her to where 
    she's almost alseep, then I can lay her in bed.  She cries, but only for 
    a few minutes (most of the time).
    
    Anyone have any ideas as to how to get her to settle herself down and
    how to get her to go to sleep a bit earlier?  
    
    Thanks.
    
    Holly
     

    Holly,
    
    	have you changed her bed time routine?  This will through little
    ones out of sinc.....
    
    	try giving her a warm bath about 30 minutes before bed time.  This
    usually mellows little ones out...
    
    Kathi