Conference moira::naturism

    A friend of mine tries to bring up her daughters to be open-minded 
    about their bodies and other people's bodies.  They all like to
    run around in the buff.  My friend explains to her kids that there
    are "silly rules" that they have to follow because there's no plausible
    explanation for them.  When they go to a textile beach and the girls
    ask why they hae to wear a swimsuit, she calls the "clothing-only" 
    rule a "silly rule" and the girls understand.  She feels that this
    helps avoid the conflict that kids might have about nuding in one
    situation and then having to wear clothes in another.
    
    
    B.

You want the neighbor over...put on the suit.  You
dont care, say you have a difference of opinion
and let her decide what to do.

Not everyone shares your views, although I hope
the woman did not say much in front of your boy.
Kids can be so impressionable at any age.

TW

Just a reminder that there's also a related discussion way back in topic 114.

    I would probably comment on the nature of popular american culture,
    an obsession with perfection, even if it only exists in fantasy. People
    do not believe that all bodies are ugly, only normal bodies are ugly.
    People only want to see an idealized body, and then, only if it is
    fantasized.
    
    Thoreau once wrote that most men live quiet lives of desperation. Could
    it be that most men can not live up to their own fantasies? Worse yet,
    could it be that most men can not distinguish between fantasy and
    reality?
    
    In any event, they've taken something beautiful and turned it ugly.
    Look at what they've done to the planet. Naturism is only one small
    part of a much bigger picture.
    
    Maybe silly rules is easier to explain. A silly policeman will throw
    you in a silly jail where you will appear before a silly judge and pay
    a silly fine. All this because silly people elect silly politicians to
    enact silly laws.
    
    							John.

    
    While I agree with what John has said, I am taking a more conservative
    course than Deb where the neighbors are concerned.
    
    Next door, there are 3 boys (ages 6 - 12) and on the other side, a boy
    and a girl (ages 10 and 12).  I believe in live and let live and while
    I hope others would accord me the same consideration, I know
    individuals aren't ready yet to think for themselves.  They'd rather go
    with what they've *been led to believe* is "right" or wrong, instead 
    of making up their own mind.
    
    So, when I lay in the backyard, I respect the neighbor's (well, respect
    isn't the right word .. I'll abide by her wishes) decision to raise her
    children "clothed" :-).  I make sure they can't see me from their back
    yard.
    
    A cop-out?  Maybe.  Respecting other's lifestyles?  That's how I like
    to view it.
    
    Sue

re .5:

But notice that Deb is talking about a naked 2-1/2 year old, and you're 
talking about a naked adult.  There's probably a significant difference
in most people's eyes.  

I think Deb's question is:  Most people probably don't object to a naked 
baby.  Most people probably do object to a naked adult.  Where's the line?

I think my inclination would be to encourage a child not to worry about 
clothes, to the extent that that is possible.  That means allowing them 
get used to being naked for long enough that when the rules do start to
apply, they're old enough to feel them as an imposition, rather than just
internalizing them.  Also, since society is more tolerant of naked children
than of naked adults, pushing the upper age limit here is a way of pushing
gently against those social rules.

Practical limits?  Well, (pulling them out of the air) I'd say no rules in
the privacy of our own yard at least until age five or so, even with guests
present; naked at the beach probably until age three.

	-Neil

    re. 5
    
    
>    So, when I lay in the backyard, I respect the neighbor's (well, respect
>    isn't the right word .. I'll abide by her wishes) decision to raise her
>   children "clothed" :-).  I make sure they can't see me from their back
>    yard.
    
    
    	I understand this, when I'm in my back yard I try to be "obscured"
    but I think that your neighbor can raise her children "clothed" even if
    you are nude. I would think that you would like the same respect shown 
    to you for your lifestyle decision that you are showing your neighbor,
    wouldn't you?
    
    ed

    Neil, do you really think it's OK for my son to be nude in our backyard
    even if guests are present?  My friend definitely looked uncomfortable
    (as I said, she even remembered last year when the kids were 18 mos.
    old!).  She also said her daughter would be "touching and asking
    questions", whatever that means.  My feeling is I screwed up by not
    asking in advance, and I plan to apologize to her for that.  If 
    we want to make guests in our house comfortable, I think we should
    accomodate their preferences when they're visiting.

I'm inclined to agree with Deb, you should try and make visitors comfortable
even if it goes against the grain. But I would do also point out that its MUCH
better for children to learn about sexual differences when they are young. 
Questions are much more easily answered at that age, my experience is that a
simple statment that "thats the way boys/girls are made" works well.

Perhaps Australians are more relaxed about nudity, but its not uncommon to see
small children (say upto 3 or 4 years old) play nude at textile beaches, and we
have never received any unfavourable comments about out children playing nude 
in the yard.

Peter.

    Sorry.  I didn't mean to suggest that you should ignore the
    sensibilities of your neighbor when she is your guest (supposing
    that you value her friendship), any more than you would ignore 
    the sensibilities and concerns of your guests in any other
    situation.  However, were it me, I would regard this as a concession
    to the (rather irrational) prejudices of one particular person, and
    would not get in the habit of dressing my child in my yard in the
    presence of guests without being asked to do so.
    
    	-Neil

>	She also said her daughter would be "touching and asking
>    questions", whatever that means. 

Hi Deb,

I think this is the reason so many parents have discomfort around
social nudity.  Kids are curious about everything (as I'm sure you
know better than I, since I don't have kids of my own, I only have
my first hand experience to work from).  That includes being 
curious about the physical differences between the sexes.  

I think many parents are uncomfortable with their own sexuality 
because they did not have parents who were comfortable with *their* 
sexuality, and therefore passed on this discomfort.  Because they
are uncomfortable with their sexuality, they don't want their child-
ren asking any questions about sexuality.  The best way to avoid any
questions is to keep any differences hidden from children and then
claiming to children that there is something bad about nudity that
they must avoid (even though the reason they don't like nudity is 
that it raises discomfort for them).

As an adult who grew up in such a family, I can attest to how harmful
it is.  After a lot of hard work and soul searching, I am comfortable
with _my_ body, but I still have a hard time with the underlying belief
that having any curiosity or desire to see other people's bodies is
"bad".  This may not sound like a major problem to some people reading
this note, particularly if they feel that nudity *is* bad, but I can
see that it is a major problem for me and my ability to form relation-
ships with women *and* stay comfortable with myself.

All this probably doesn't give you any concrete advice on how to handle
the situation at hand.  I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.  But
I do think it's important to remember why other people are uncomfortable
with nudity and I think it's great that you are doing your best not to
saddle your son with the same harmful assumptions I grew up under.

Good luck,

Kerry

Today's (Wednesday's) Ann Landers touches on this subject, with a resident
of an apartment building writing to complain about a neighbor who's
kids (up to age 7) will go to their car naked.  Ann was opposed at any
age, on the grounds that the kids become more likely victims of child
molesters -- that's a new one on me.  I do grant that age 7 is pushing
social convention a bit.

(And, as long as I'm bringing up social convention, Miss Manners also
touched on nudism today, discussing people who entertain in the nude
without warning their guests in advance.  She feels that if one is
going to stray from social convention, one should respect that
convention enough to give guests fair warning.)

   Gary

    
  .12> (And, as long as I'm bringing up social convention, Miss Manners also
  .12> touched on nudism today, discussing people who entertain in the nude
  .12> without warning their guests in advance.  She feels that if one is
  .12> going to stray from social convention, one should respect that
  .12> convention enough to give guests fair warning.)
    
    Entertain in the nude without warning guests? Does she cite any
    examples? I can't come up with a scenario where I would invite people
    to my place and "entertain in the nude" without letting the guests know
    that I would be doing so.
    
    
    Frank
    

    Well, Sorry if I seem a little militant. It's frustrating to have to
    cave in as the solution to other people's personal problems. I'll try
    not to switch completely into psychotherapist mode but I will say that
    saying people get "uncomfortable" is scratching the tip of the iceburg.
    People easily slip into a mode where they correct others as a means of
    escaping themselves. It's symptomatic, futile, and more often than not
    harmful. After the decision comes the rationalization that they're
    doing it to protect the "children". There's alsways a slew of
    rationalizations which stop just short of full circle.
    
    I won't say that being militant is always the best thing to do.
    However, sometimes you really have to fight for what's right. I can
    stand being angry once in a while but I can't stand being insincere.
    Least of all do I want to give other people the impression that I
    haven't put a lot of thought into it.
    
    							John.

> After the decision comes the rationalization that they're doing it to 
> protect the "children".

Actually, I was watching Donahue the other night (probably an older version for
those of you in the US - don't know what the delay is getting it to the UK),
whose subject was the ban in this place in Florida on the backless bikini
bottoms.

Several of the people who agreed with the ban (including the vice mayor) brought 
up the subject of protecting children from this 'deprivation' (sp?) and 'total
lack of moral standards'. Several people though showing the buttocks was 
disgusting and should be banned in public places, and agreed with the council's
decision to make these swimsuits illegal (punishable by a several hundred $
fine), even tough they had a young attractive couple on the show to model 
these swimsuits. People thought that seeing people in these swimsuits would 
corrupt children's minds! (BTW, the mayor was against the ban, but was outvoted
3-2 at the meeting)

...just as an aside, Donahue read out the council's description of naked:

 1> visibility of the male or female genitals
 2> visibility of the male or female pubic region
 3> visibility of the male or female anal cleft
 4> visibility of any part of the areola (sp?) part of the female breast



Which century are we in?

Rob.

 re .15 ...

>>   Which century are we in?

  doesn't matter when you're in florida! 8^) ...

>>  Several people though showing the buttocks was 
>>  disgusting and should be banned in public places,

  Unbelievable huh ... its amazing that people can think that part of
  their bodies (as long as its a normal clean body) is disgusting ... 

  What kind of self image do these people have!  Hmmm, lets see, man was
  created in gods image, .. Ah, so parts of god must be disgusting! I get
  it!

 paul

    I've been a read-only person for quite a while, so this is my first
    attempt to respond.
    
    This topic made me remember a childhood 'trauma' which, I think,
    explains, at least for me, why we grow up with the notion that 
    'natural' is unacceptable.
    
    The summer I was 10, I started to 'bud'. (I'm female)  Our family 
    lived in the country and I had always been allowed to play 'topless'
    in our yard when the weather was really hot.  All the kids did!  Well,
    one day my mom sat me down and explained that I had to always wear
    a top when I went outside because I was different from the other kids
    and to play topless was forbidden.  Then she gave me a box and said
    from now on I'd have to wear this under my shirt......it was a bra!
    
    We put it on me and I cried.  It felt horrible, it made me FEEL 
    different from the other kids, like I was abnormal or something.
    So I rebelled...I refused to wear that wretched thing and went on 
    playing outside in only a shirt.  Then my (older) sister started
    saying she wouldn't be seen with me unless I wore that damned bra!
    Of course, I wanted to go places with her, so I wore it.
    
    I guess I should mention that my first bra was size 36B...it wasn't 
    one of those stretchy flat things for preteens.
    
    It wasn't until I went back to school (7th grade) that I realized
    I'd outgrown all my classmates.  I remember that as being the most
    miserable year of my childhood....the kids teasing me about my
    chest.
    
    SO....the point is, I guess, that preteen/puberty is SUCH a confusing
    time for kids, parents should really try to instill in their kids
    their UNIQUENESS, not point out their differences and encourage them
    to be ashamed.