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Conference moira::naturism

Title:	Naturism
Notice:	Site report index is in topic 7
Moderator:	GENRAL::KILGORE

Created:	Tue Jan 26 1988
Last Modified:	Wed May 07 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	457
Total number of notes:	3687

328.0. "Frankness" by DDIF::MACK (Embrace No Contradictions) Sat Jul 27 1991 02:27

    In postings in rec.nude and in the naturism conference, I see an echo
    of a phenomenon which seems to me commonplace in the US - the fear of
    trouble restricts us to far less of a life than we have a right to.

    I lived in Lawrence, Massachusetts for four years and got to observe
    the corrosive effects of fear in the aftermath of the riots one summer.  
    Two years later, during the day, you'd see relatively little activity
    in  the downtown shopping district.  The bad boys didn't bother folk
    during  the day, and precious few at night except each other, but
    people weren't  taking any chances.  People were doing their shopping
    in the outskirts and in neighboring towns. Fear builds fear.

    I've also noticed something about how ideas become respectable. In
    America, at least, the judgements we use when electing somebody to
    public office revolves more around his or her character than the merits
    of his or her ideas or his or her past legislative behavior. This may
    explain the "Reagan effect" that had the pundits scratching their
    heads, where polls would  reveal large numbers of people who supported
    Reagan even though they were opposed to most of his policies.  A nice
    guy can't be bad for the country.

    This habit of basing our judgements on personal character carries over
    into  private life.  Except where we have strong prior opinions, we
    generally  judge behaviors and attitudes long held by people we respect
    to be ok, if  not perhaps appropriate for ourselves.

    Finally, I've noticed that peoples' opinions on most things are pretty
    fluid unless they're personally involved or their friends are in the
    business of crusading about that particular issue.  Thus a person may
    not have anything personally against people being gay, but will go with 
    their church on principle to picket a school that has hired a gay
    teacher.   But let that same person discover that their business
    partner of 20 years is gay well before their church decides to go
    crusading and they may well find themselves rather busy that day, even
    if they don't have the courage to speak up against the rest of the
    congregation.

    That's people such as they are.  None of us can spend our life forming
    firm opinions about absolutely everything and expend the energy to do
    something about those opinions.  Maybe we'll find one or two things in
    our lifetime worth fighting about.  Maybe not.  I've discovered that
    I'm a lot happier person since I've stopped learning about things in
    order to form defensible judgements about them and started learning
    about them  because they're interesting.  I listen better, too.

    So what's all this got to do with nudity?  It occurs to me that a great
    many of the folk around us probably don't know that we're nudists, and
    that in the long run, it may be in our best interests if it is
    generally known, but not made a big deal of.  

    When I was three, there was a big dog out the back of our property on a
    lead that rolled on a runner.  My dad let our neighbor use  that part
    of the property for his dog since we didn't use it much. I was
    terrified of that dog.  There was a nice patch of woods just beyond
    that dog run.  One day I thought the dog wasn't out and I walked under
    the runner to get to the woods.  The dog must have been behind the
    barn; he appeared out of nowhere.  I ran and tripped and waited on my
    back to die.  The dog ran up and licked my face.  Life can be like
    that.

    There's a self-centeredness in fear that puts us in the center of an 
    anticipated drama, a drama which may not come to pass.  I suspect that 
    most of us were "sure" that on our first day on the beach people would 
    be looking at us and pointing only to discover on that day that they 
    had better things to do, like swim and play horseshoes and get a tan. 
    Strange how relief and disappointment can mix, huh? :-)
    
    How do we talk about our weekends?  "We went up to the lake this
    weekend; the weather was great."  The conversation continues, comparing
    different swimming places.  What are the features that make it a nice
    place.  Here's where we start hedging.  Why?  If we treat the fact that
    we and our  families can go swim nude without being harassed by silly
    folk as just  one particularly nice feature of the beaches we go to and
    are willing to answer questions, people will come to know what nudism
    is about, and most will blend it into their respect for us.  Some may
    wamt to try it  themselves - some might even ask for directions; others
    won't.  People  generally won't form hard judgements against us.

    I've been involved in a number of evangelical churches; thinking back
    to all of the folks I've met, aside from one rather scarey little UPC
    church  in East Litchfield, Connecticut, I don't believe any of them
    would "take  arms" against somebody they knew personally who they knew
    wasn't "sexually  loose" preferring to swim nude and being comfortable
    nude around his or her family.  I could easily imagine several of them,
    in the absence of  better information, getting the wrong image of
    nudism, though, and trying  to shut down imagined "dens of untold
    iniquity".  Once that process began,  there'd be little hope of
    informing anyone's opinion, as it would be viewed  as trying to defend
    a sin. 

    In the extreme case, frankness may make possible things otherwise
    impossible  to hope for.  The person all of whose neighbors are quite
    accepting of their  nude sunbathing may be free to do so in his or her
    back yard without facing resistance or resentment.  It could even
    become a neighborhood practice, at least until somebody moves in who
    objects.  This is, of course, an extreme case.  But if miracles are
    to happen, they only will happen in an open atmosphere.

    For these reasons, I think that openness and frankness about nudism
    are, in  the long run, in our best interest.  We remove circumscribed
    limits around what we say to our friends about our weekends.  I think
    we can then relax more about nudity ourselves.  People who would react
    against what they would otherwise think nudism is might well find
    themselves not averse to what it really is, although they might want to
    personally keep a distance. And in rare circumstances, miracles at 
    least become feasable.

    There may be a good reason particular individuals shouldn't do this;
    there  are a very few really rabid people out there, more perhaps in
    some parts  of the country than others and some folk have to work with
    them or live  in the same neighborhood.  Some may even be related to
    them.  It's too bad.   Until nudism is generally accepted, those most
    closely associated with the  rabid will suffer.

    And it isn't easy because we're afraid, of course.  It's never easy to 
    start talking about anything you've been taught to be afraid to talk
    about. There's a tendency to focus on the -oh,no- topic and be awkward
    about it, dropping it like a bomb, which makes conversation sort of
    stall, and  embarrasses everyone.  

    I'm working through this myself.  Earlier this summer, I'd just say to
    the folks in my group that I'd been up to "the lake".  Lately, I've
    been saying  that it's a naturist campground up past the Lee Speedway. 
    Most folks don't know  what "naturist" is, and assume that its just
    some sort of camping association.   The situation is kind of ridiculous
    since I'm not uncomfortable about being nude.  I know these are friends
    and nobody is going to get bent out of shape.  I think  I avoid the
    words "nude" and "nudist" because they have too much shock value.  I
    could at least mention the name of the place, though. :-)

    It's amazing that something so natural to do quite openly and socially 
    is so damned hard to talk about with friends who presumably don't. 
    Maybe part of it is that, due to convention, we have to go somewhere
    that's usually in the middle of nowhere behind a security barrier just
    to take our clothes off and relax.  This reinforces the emotional
    security barrier. C/O beaches are better than private campgrounds in 
    this respect.

    I know the above was sort of rambling, but I think it lead somewhere.
    Thoughts, comments, experiences, reactions?  How do/would your friends
    and neighbors feel about nudism?
    
								Ralph

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
328.1	Debunking myths is a bottom-up process :-)	MLTVAX::FISHER	Building a faster pig	`Mon Jul 29 1991 17:02`	26
	Interesting note, Ralph. I, too, used to be circumspect in mentioning my nude recreation to friends and co-workers, but I came to a similar conclusion as you and slipped something in to a conversation one time at work. No big reaction, though there might have been a raised eyebrow or two at first. By now, all of my friends and most of my co-workers know, and I'm none the worse for it, maybe even better off, overall. Sometimes I'll take a little ribbing, but I can see they're laughing with me, not at me. I even mentioned it to my (ulp) parents, and although their reaction was typically stoic, they still seem to like me just the same as before. Mind you, I don't go out of my way to mention that I like to run around with no clothes on, but I don't pause as long before speaking up if conversation turns that way. I recently learned through a third party that our neighbor, a very nice old lady, used/uses a pond on her property as a skinny-dipping spot. (It's a nice little pond, too, I'll have to get myself invited to use it. :-) I suspect the woods are full of such people, keeping mostly to themselves. And it's no wonder, in this society where "don't rock the boat" seems to be gradually leading to "report your neighbor". The only way to stem the tide is through public education, and on a personal level that means letting people see that nudists aren't drooling sicko child-molseters, but normal folks like (hopefully) you and I. It's a lot of responsibility, and sometimes I need to take a break from it and just lay out in the sun with a cold beer. Carl
328.2	some thoughts...	SUBWAY::LANKA	Instrument flying is fun!	`Mon Jul 29 1991 23:56`	25
	Well, this is an interesting subject, and one I think I'll comment on. I rarely mention my fondness for nudity, because I have the psychological barrier in my head that says the person I mention it to will automacilly think SEX PERVERT about me, although that is far from the truth. This kind of goes hand in hand with the "No single male" policy at many nudist resorts. I guess there are a lot of single males who use nudity as sexual outlets, otherwise why would there be so many nudist camps with this policy? Personally, I prefer going to nudist recreation/camp areas with a member of the female persuasion, because in the past when I have gone as a single, I have gotten the feeling that others who are there as couples are giving me the "cold shoulder" because I'm a single male, although my intentions are absolutely innocent, i.e. just there for the social nudity, not for "staring/getting my rocks off" Anyway, the reason I mentioned this, which was slightly off the subject was that it keeps me from openly discussing my preference because of the stigma I think people will associate with it. I guess the only way to break through it is to just swallow my pride, and take my chances with what peoples reactions will be. I guess if I did this in all areas of my life, I would be better off. Jeff
328.3	terminology	DANGER::JBELL	Zeno was almost here	`Tue Jul 30 1991 10:27`	6
	Why is it if you say "we went to a nude beach" some people will think of it as a semi-erotic experience, but if you say "we went skinny-dipping" it conjures images of child-like playfulness with a small hint of mischievousness? I know I know. All together now: "Why ask why..."
328.4	anonymous reply	MOIRA::FAIMAN	light upon the figured leaf	`Fri Aug 02 1991 18:27`	55
	I'm posting this for a conference reader who would prefer to remain anonymous. -Neil Faiman, NATURISM moderator ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frankness in nudity is something that I've not really come across at all since I came to the US about a year ago from Europe. This notesfile is all I've seen, in fact. The society here is as prudish as I experienced England as a child in the 50's, so how on earth can anyone actually be frank, without incurring the wrath of some "interest" group or other? I've seen the Puritans, and they're in the US! :^) My wife and I are "closet naturists". We enjoy being naked, but not in public. The closest we've come to it was on a beach in Denmark 2 years ago, which I guess would be described in here as "clothing optional", and elsewhere in Europe where much skimpier swimsuits are so much more common. Toplessness pretty much seems to be the norm in the resorts we visited, for example, and no-one took any notice - except a few fat, middle-aged American tourists. (I know, I shouldn't generalise like that, but there is a European view of such creatures :-) ) We did spend most of that vacation nude, but only because we were in totally isolated places and could be alone. I was EXTREMEMLY tempted to strip off completely on that beach in Denmark, but didn't. I still ask myself why not, and haven't found a real answer. My wife did spend the vacation topless, however. So, we're not as frank as we could be. My wife is freer than I in this respect, and she is American, too. She enjoyed the freedom to go topless in Europe that she doesn't have over here - it was even posted as illegal at the last beach we visited! So, where is this leading ...... We make no bones about the fact that we go nude together. We have encouraged friends and acquaintances to go to the places we've enjoyed, if we sense that they would also enjoy them. We swim naked in our back-yard pool, although the suits come off once we're in the water and go on again before climbing out - unless it's night time :-) We spend our time in the house, when the kids aren't home, nude. It's a great sense of freedom, but I wouldn't feel that free if socially nude, which is why I've not done so - yet. We haven't lost any friends because of what we've told them, and if we did I wouldn't regard them as real friends to lose. On the other hand, we would not go to places with friends or acquaintances and then go nude. We don't swim naked when visitors are around, and our suits are much more substantial at such times. We keep some form of clothing on in the house when others are staying with us. I think it'd be an interesting question for us to be frank about if a visitor asked if he/she could swim nude. I guess the answer would be "as long as you're discreet, as there are neighbours that could see into our yard if they really want to, and might be offended". I suspect I might be even more offended by a "peeping Tom", as they really do have to look carefully from certain angles to see even a part of our yard. Having said all this I now feel slightly a victim of my own writing, as I'm not able to be frank enough with myself to "come out" in such a public/social forum such as this! One day ......
328.5	Sick society . . .	HPSRAD::JWILLIAMS	John Williams Cirrus 297-6141	`Tue Aug 20 1991 18:03`	23
	One can imagine easily how people would react if a rape or other sexual incident were to occur in a clothing optional setting. It would be a field day for the puritans and the media. ( The puritans think fun = sin, the media thinks fun = hazard ) We seem to be very fortunate in that very few crimes are associated with nudity, ( at least those which are punishable by law ), but a distinct possibility to contend with is the eventuality that some terrible thing could happen that would shut the case for another 100 years. There is a statement being made with nudity, however, it is not sexual invitation. This is the hardest aspect to relate. Nudity will only last as long as this distinction can be asserted. For myself, I go nude because I enjoy the freedom. I do not go nude as a sexual overture and I do not perceive sexual invitation in others whom I happen to be nude with. How different things would be if more people tried it, for in an instant I think they would recognize how ridiculous it is to perceive so intimate a statement as sexual invitation in so social a context as nudity. While the connection between nudity and sexual invitation still exists, it's an uphill battle that could backfire at any moment. John.
328.6	going a little further	ESGSEG::DITOMMASO	I cant get use to this lifestyle	`Wed Aug 21 1991 18:10`	21
	Taking your scenerio a little bit further ... Could you imagine the court case that would follow if a rape did occur at a nude beach, or area. Lets say the rapist was caught and brought to trial. Could you imagine the trial after that. What about the jury? Would they have naturists on the jury? Think about how important what a woman was dressed in has been in the past, as far as rape cases go, and what this would be like. This actually would be a good case for LA Law ... they have done one naturist show before. Well, it sounds so much to people like us that a the rapist should be convicted and shot (or something close to that), however, I'm sure there are millions of (sick) people in this country that would think other wise because the victim was naked. paul
328.7	No special law for naturists	QCAV02::CSUNDER		`Mon Jul 19 1993 03:43`	5
	I feel the rapist in a naturist setting should be dealt by law in the same manner as would be in a non-naturist setting. He/she should not be punished in more severe manner like convicting or shooting. The moment laws are tailor made for naturism, the spirit of naturism is lost.