Conference moira::naturism

    Hi Darrell,
    
    I'm sorry to hear about your situation and I wish you well (as I'm sure
    everyone else here does).
    
    It is somewhat appropriate to put your note in here, (IMHO), because
    the regulars in this notesfile are something of a "family" and everyone
    is here to help and discuss things that relate to naturism and it's
    causes and effects.  
    
    I hope naturism wasn't the real cause of your problem (rather, merely
    a symptom).  I think that naturism has brought some of my friends and
    me closer together so it'd bother me if naturism actually caused a 
    breakup.
    
    Hope everything goes well with you.
    
    Ben

    Hi Darrell (and Everyone),

    For the past few weeks, I have been a quiet observer of this conference,
    and did not intend on actively participating in the discussions until
    prompted by Darrell's note 280.0.

    By most standards, I do not qualify as a nudist.  Although I do sleep in
    the raw and take showers in the nude, the only other occasions where I 
    remember being nude were:
    (1) Six years ago when I was still single, I went to a CO beach by
        myself.  And yes, I did strip.  Despite that I was a little embar-
        rassed and had some minor trouble controlling my sexual responses
        at times (I laid face down when that happened), I enjoyed it.  It 
        was so free (except I found it hard to stop myself from staring 
        at others).
    (2) I've now been married for over four years (hard to believe!).  I 
        have two young kids (even harder to believe).  My wife and I had 
        gone skinny dipping twice (at night) in the private pool at my 
        in-law's backyard over the last 4 years.

    The reason that I am writing this note here after reading Darrell's 
    notes is as follows:
    (1) I come from a rather conservative family.  To my understanding,
        my late father had double standards.  After leaving home at the 
        age of 18, I outgrew my family's "moral standards" (and developed 
        my own set) and had since become quite comfortable with my body, 
        and my sexuality.
    (2) My wife is somewhat conservative.  In the past, when I had casually
        mentioned to her the idea of someday visiting a nude beach, her
        response has been: "My dad took me to one when I was eight.  The
        other kids were nude at first, but got dressed soon after they saw
        me, but their father did not, and I remember looking at his dick
        hanging.  My parents did not undress."

    My wife also occasionally makes the unkind remark about individuals who
    wear a bikini bathing suit, or "skippy bathing suits that show the
    crack of their bums".

    The impression that I got from her (I don't know if this is totally
    correct) is: "If you do it, don't involve me", and I don't know what
    her response is about involving the kids.  I'm quite sure that if we
    ever visit a CO beach one day, she would leave her bathing suit on.

    I love my wife, and I considered myself *HAPPILY* married.  Before I 
    got married, I did repeatedly consider the certain "freedom" I might
    lose.  I view that as a trade-off to having the security of being with
    someone I love.  I base my relationship on my *blantant* (sometimes 
    offensive) sincerity.  When we have a problem, I like to talk it over.
    My wife, on the other hand, is the defensive type.  She is brought up 
    to hide her feelings.  When she has an emotional problem, she would 
    either say nothing, rebell, or have strong emotional outbursts.  My 
    attempts to communicate were sometimes referred to as "lectures".

    Darrell's notes cautioned me to be aware that some people may momentarily
    go along with you to give you the impression that they are yielding,
    but would evenly revolt if you push too hard.  While I don't believe
    that his appreciation in nudism is the ONLY cause for his predicament, 
    it does tell me to be more careful about my situation.  Every relation-
    ship has its own problems.  As much as I want my spouse to share some of
    my believes, I do not wish to impose my ideas on her, for fear that she 
    would bend over backwards to please me, but only to realize she is not
    doing it out of her own free will (as I believe is what had happened in 
    Darrell's case).

    If anyone has any great idea on how to permanently and effectively 
    brainwash someone, I'm willing to listen.  Meanwhile, I would put 
    my marriage before my desire to enjoy naturism.  :-(    However,
    there are few, if any, social nudist colonies around where I live
    and we have a harsh winter here anyway.  But someday, if I can, I
    will try to get rid of my ugly tan line.

    Regards to all,

    Duncan.

    Thanks for your thoughts, Duncan.  I feel much like you do.  I've been
    following this notes file for quite some time and would enjoy someday
    participating in a naturist activity with my wife, but I'm not sure how
    I would "invite" her, if the opportunity ever came up.  But I certainly
    would not want to pressure her into doing something she doesn't want to
    do.  There are other things in life that we haven't done together that
    could be just as fun.
    
    But hopefully some day the time will be "right".  I look forward to it.
    
    -- dan                                                                 

        re: "wives"
    
             Be leery of possibly sexist remarks...that is, generalizing
    one sex over another.  I happen to have known a few situations that
    were the reverse...in other words, the wives (or girlfriends) were the
    "liberated" ones while the husbands (or boyfriends) were the more
    conservative members of the relationship.
    
             Sorry to hear of your experience, Darrell.  Perhaps your
    relationship's ending has more to do with communication than events
    or activities.  In any case, I certainly can relate to the pain of
    losing a relationship.  May you learn whatever you can from it and
    proceed with a new and wiser future.
    
    Frederick
    

    Wise words from everyone who has responded.
    
    I *do* believe that there was more to our separation than just the fact
    that my wife (ex-wife, I'm single again), couldn't deal well enough
    with the nude activities that I enjoy.  However, it doesn't cover the
    fact that she brought it up to me, does it !  It was one of her
    reasons, (not the only one), but it was one that I can't ignore.  It
    really amazed me that she said she was hurt by naturist activiites, and
    I think it was more along the lines of what .2 was indicating, that in
    some way, if you try not to force your preferences on your spouse, that
    they'll accept you for what you like or dislike.  But it's pretty
    confusing at the same time, cause Vicki seemed to be opening up so
    much.  Maybe the Jacuzzi at Hedonism was just something she did to
    please me, but I didn't get the impression from her that she didn't
    want to do it, in fact, she seemed anxious on a couple of nights to
    get to the Jacuzzi after dinner.  (For those of you who don't follow
    this, refer to my note of our experiences in Jamaica).  So, maybe she
    just went along with it, and hid her feelings... I don't know... I
    can't figure it out anymore.
    
    But I *do* know, like I said in the base note, I don't intend to get
    seriously involved with anyone else that has a problem with naturism.
    (well, at least that's the way I feel right now).
    
    signed confused, Darrell
    

    You have my thoughts, Darrell, and I truly hope everything works
    out amicably for you.  I agree with the others who have said that
    Naturism and the conflicts Vicki has with it is simply a symptom
    of other things bothering her.  It hurts quite a bit to go through
    a divorce - my husband and I both have been married previously -
    and you have to try your hardest to be kind to each other at this
    time if at all possible.  My divorce went fairly well, but my husband's
    was a whole other story and sadly, his son got stuck in the middle of
    the whole huge mess.  You sound, however, like you're handling it well.
    
    And just a side note to Frederick - you're quite right in my case.
    Until my husband met me, he had never been involved in any Naturist
    activities.  He has never expressed any problem with it though and I'm
    confident that he'd speak up if it bothered him.
    
    Take care, Darrell.  You've got a lot of friends...
    
    - Kathryn
    

    The following reply is from a friend who wishes to remain anonymous:
    
    I wish that I could be more like my friend Darrell, who is so open
    about his body and his sexuality.  I hope the people in this conference
    can be patient with people like me who are not as open about their
    bodies.  I also think that the people here are ahead of their time,
    and hope the rest of us in North America can somehow change our
    attitudes towards naturism and expression of ourselves through our
    bodies.
    
    I think that it's really great that there is such a supportive group
    of people here.  I hope someday,  I'm not afraid to be as free with
    my body as my friend Darrell.
    
    -- signed, 'changing attitudes'
    

Then again, I consider myself a good judge of character. I call it:

	Undressing for success!
								John.

    Darrel's candid note is a lesson for naturists trying to introduce
    naturism to others. Looks like I have to take care introducing it to my
    wife who is of rigid character. I plan to do it slow & steady. Hope it
    leads to a change in her. Anyway I do not like forcing my views on
    anyone. If my relationship with her is at stake, then I will drop the
    idea of converting her.            

    
    When my girlfriend and I first started going to clothing optional
    beaches, she at first used to wear a suit, and I didn't.  She decided
    it would be nice then to go topless, and she really enjoyed it.  When
    she decided that it was no big deal, she went completely nude.  This
    process took about one week. (going to the beach almost every day).
    
    Most people should be mature enough to go to a clothing optional beach
    and not be bothered by people going nude. (though I know some people
    who really aren't that mature - it blows my mind how some adults can be
    so childish!).
    
    I think once the person is there, just the freedom of it, the great
    beach and all can convince them to try it for themselves.  Nothing is a
    bigger turn off than pressure to do something.  I simply let Amy go at
    her own pace, the only thing I pretty much insisted on is that we go to
    the clothing optional beach .. which was no big deal for her.
    
    Another thing I remember doing was going to a more secluded section of
    the beach for her first time going nude.  She was more comfortable and
    the next day she didn't feel like walking to the secluded section and
    decided on her own that we should just go where everyone else goes.
    
    Good luck
    
    paul

Posted by the moderator for a conference participant who prefers to
remain anonymous:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	You can't change your spouse (or anyone for that matter).  They
	have to want to change themselves -- or they will resent your 
	imposition of ideas if they change "for you".  This extends way
	beyond naturism.  You can't go into a marriage thinking you'll
	change their eating habits, smoking, messiness, whatever.  SOMEONE
	will end up very disappointed.

	All you can do is share your feelings (not just thoughts and
	beliefs, but your deep down inner feelings) about the subject.
	Maybe he is willing to change his mind and his beliefs about 
	naturism, but he can't seem to overcome his deep embarrassment 
	or shyness or offense.  You see, feelings are beyond our control.
	They are spontaneous.  They *ARE* you; they don't come from you.
	So both partners have to know the others' FEELINGS to understand
	what's going on.  And both partners -- if they truly love each
	other -- have to ACCEPT those feelings for what they are.  Never
	reject feelings, because feelings are a part of the person, and
	rejecting his/her feelings means that you are rejecting him/her!
	And ACCEPTING feelings is more than just tolerating them.  It is
	understanding them, and choosing to love that person and that
	person's feelings unconditionally.

	It's funny.  In a way, the sharing of feelings is very much like
	the shedding of clothes in a CO setting.  We wear masks in our
	lives to hide feelings in us that we see as unacceptable and ugly.
	We don't want others to see our fears and our insecurities.  For
	the deepest of relationships, though, we have to be able to shed
	those masks and trust in the other not to reject us and our feelings.
	Naturism is a physical analogy to the psychological and emotional
	shedding we have to endure to reach the depth of relationship that
	we yearn for with our spouses.  Looking back at some of the older
	entries in this topic, it seems to me that the inability to shed
	these masks and truly understand the others' feelings on the subject
	contributed to the problems.

	Naturists may have a better ability to shed those masks because they
	have had the experiences of shedding and trust and acceptance at
	the physical level.  But it is important for the naturist in these
	situations to be sure and express his/her feelings of freedom and
	glory (and loss of same when clothed) so that the hesitant party
	realizes what the naturist sacrifices (out of love for the spouse
	and the relationship) if the naturist chooses a clothed relationship
	with the hesitant spouse over the desire for naturism.

	Again, you can't change the other.  But understanding of the other
	on the part of both spouses -- not just the thoughts and beliefs
	but the deepest feelings that are an uncontrollable part of the
	person, so much a part of the person that feelings cannot be viewed
	as right or wrong -- understanding and ACCEPTANCE of these feelings
	will result in a bonding in that relationship that will be able to
	overcome ANY differences.  There is nothing like risking your inner 
	self with your spouse, and summoning up a frightening supply of
	trust to accomplish that, and then finding out that you are still 
	accepted even with those feelings that you were afraid to share!

	My spouse and I went through (and are still going through) this
	very same naturism issue.  It took some time for me to really 
	understand the embarrassment around strangers when nude that was
	expressed.  And it took some realization on my part that naturism
	to me does not mean exhibitionism -- that I do not have to be
	nude in social settings.  If it is just the two of us, my spouse
	does not feel the same embarrassment or shame.  Indoors it is
	very natural.  Outdoors with just the two of us it is actually
	daring and exciting.  But with others around -- friends or 
	strangers -- it is even frightening to my spouse.  And my spouse 
	was afraid to tell me this for fear that I'd see that concern and
	embarrassment as prudish and that I'd get judgmental.  Finding out
	that I accepted those feelings made for more open discussion and
	lowered walls on both our parts.

	Since it is not important for me that others see me nude or for me 
	to see others nude, we realized that if we could shed our clothes in
	private somewhere then my spouse could share and enjoy my naturism
	and thus no longer deny me my feelings when nude outdoors. So
	we head for the mountains and hike to secluded spots where we
	can be naked together.  We take a quilt and a picnic lunch and
	a bottle of wine and suntan lotion.  I get my fix.  My spouse
	rejoices in my enjoyment of freedom.  I rejoice in my spouse's
	immersion in and enjoyment of an important part of my world.
	And we grow closer as a result.

	And working out issues like these help us to be willing to take 
	the plunge in other areas of our lives where we hide risky feelings 
	too.