Conference moira::naturism

    Hey, don't feel bad, my mother told me the same thing.  I think
    it is a notion, held over from the Victorian period.

>    Hey, don't feel bad, my mother told me the same thing.  I think
>    it is a notion, held over from the Victorian period.

Could be, but I've been told the same thing by women of many ages.

For instance, I did a photo project on nudes (I did male and female). 
One of my models was fellow photographer.  She said she was interested
in doing nudes, but wanted to do women.  "Lets face it," she said, "it's
not very pretty."  She went on that she thought female bodies where 
simply aesthetically more pleasing overall.

She, too, I'm sure, was quite straight.  

Although it's not really the same as nudism, I have another example...
When I was a senior in high school I became curious why there were
so many magazines "for men," but only one "for women."  I decided to
take a poll of female friends to find out if they would admit to liking
Playgirl or not.  

Not one had any interest (not necessarily just sexually, I was asking
if they were even curious).  Those who had seen them said they found
them disgusting.  Now, since them I've met a few women who do claim 
to like seeing naked men.  But only a few.

On the other hand, I've only met a few (I can only think of one actually)
straight men who did not like seeing naked women.

I also find it interesting that in art, the female nude is acceptable,
but the male nude is considered pornography (I read this in an art manual!).
I'm certain that my male nudes (self-portraits as well as other models)
were not pornography!

I'm still trying to figure out if this is cultural or biological.  I've
read that men are stimulated by visuals, whereas women are stimulated by
other things (I'm still trying to figure out what :^>).  But I'm not sure
if that really has anything to do with it, since we all seem to agree that
enjoying nudity does not imply sexual enjoyment.

Maybe someone here has some insight?

Hope so.

Kerry

I'd also point out that gay men have probably far more "men's" magazines
than straight men do.  So the idea that we are "ugly men" seems to be
disproven by males who like males.  

Still, it seems like a sex role difference, still I'm not sure if its
cultural or biological...

    I think men have wonderful bodies!  I especially love shoulders,
    chests, legs, etc., etc.  I agree that most people (especially
    those stuck in time-warps) won't agree with me, but I'm one woman
    who loves looking at men.
    
    Re: .2  Where in the world did you find an art manual that claims
            nude men are pornographic?  What about Michelangelo's David?
    
    - Kathryn
    

                                         
    re.2
    The statue "david" in Florence Italy is one example of the male
    form in art. From my observation of the crowd noone found it ugly
    or otherwise repulsive. Of course they could have just been impressed
    by its size 50'+ tall in white marble. I found it quite beautiful
    and yes I am straight.
    
    -j

Re: .4

>    Re: .2  Where in the world did you find an art manual that claims
>            nude men are pornographic?  What about Michelangelo's David?

In a library in Salem NH.  Actually it was a book on Nude photography,
which people may consider different.  But I think is more surprising
given that it is of more recent origin.    

    Perhaps this uglyness is a symptom of men not feeling good about
    themselves.
    
    In my little corner of the unvierse I find myself exposing myself
    more and more to clothed women (in specific, non-public contexts).
    
    It's amazing how one's self esteem can be bosted by forcing themselves
    to be in situations that require self esteem. Now I'm 20 to 30
    lbs overweight but my body carries it well. Practice makes perfect.
    
    Men have beautiful bodies. Women also. Yet no one is perfect. Not
    one of us if free from blemish. yet each mark on our bodies is
    comparable to spots on animals.
    
    We are animals you know. Spots are ok.

    Having lived in Indonesian New Guinea I can say that male "beauty"
    is cultural.  There males are considered the most beautiful and
    since they wear no clothes male genitals are part of the total package.
     Men there are seen in much the same way women are viewed in our
    society.  Also, women are considered the sexually agressive partner,
    and responsible for luring beautiful men into improper liaisons.
    
    Many tribes do not consider women's breasts to be erotic or beautiful
    at all.  To complicate it further their standards of beauty were
    so far off from western standards that what they termed beautiful
    I would term ugly.  They thought European men and women were extreamly
    ugly.  So my conclusion was that beauty is cultural, not instinctive.
    Dennis
    

    I can not find anything ugly or unattractive about the male body.
    What I do find unattractive is someone (male or female) who does
    not take care of their body.  This does not necessarily mean fit,
    trim, beautiful, etc (all that stuff society sez we should be).
    It means "I am a healthy (mentally and plysically) person, and I am 
    happy with myself.  I take care of myself!"
    
    Linda

    
    Women are notorious for criticizing their own bodies, even if they
    already have perfect bodies, when they look in a mirror, they can
    ususally find something wrong, or something they would like to change.
    
    Men on the other hand, certainly don't put as much attention into
    the matter (men in general I mean).  Myself, I look in the mirror
    and I like what I see.  I don't think I'm ugly, no matter what my
    mother says. ;-)
    
    I agree with Linda.  People who take care of themselves are more
    pleasant to look at (male or female).
    
    Darrell
    

    	Although the exact terms used by my mother were not as explicit
    as "That thing between your legs is ugly", her message came through
    loud and clear. It was not attractive, should not be seen at all,
    one must have "modesty" and not allow your private areas to be seen
    at all by others. Her message was one that lasted all of my life as
    far back as I can remember, the insidious thing was the very gradual, 
    yet constant put down. It's taken some very hard work and time to come
    to grips with what was said to me verbally and by action. 
    
    	My S/O and I had a day off yesterday and went to Cedar Waters
    for a day in the sun. (In itself this ability to be outdoors in
    the sun in "public" has been a major step away from my mothers
    conditioning.) While there the owners son (about 7 or 8 years old
    I would guess) was playing and swimming, without clothes. A little
    later another family came in that had a little girl about the same
    age and a younger boy. They all played and swam the whole day. They
    were totally oblivious to the fact that they were not wearing clothes,
    they were just at ease with themselves and each other and enjoyed
    the day, sun and fun.
    
    	I talked to my S/O about what we had seen and I envied those
    young children that at least they will not grow up with some of
    the problems that I and others in this file have had. 
    
    	We were also there on Sunday and on that day there were some
    middle age teenagers there, I'd say a girl about 15 and a boy about
    the same age. They were totally at ease with each other and paid
    no attention to the fact that they had no clothes on. I'm sure
    that as the age approaches around 18 that things begin to change
    as they begin to look for a S/O for themselves. But at least the
    two teenagers that were there on Sunday were at ease at this point
    in their lives. How many boys sneak looks at the likes of
    Playboy/Penthouse because of the mystery and mystique that those
    young people at Cedar Waters don't have or feel? (Do teenage girls
    look similarly at Playgirl for the same reasons???) 
    
    	Perhaps this lifestyle of public nudity isn't for all, but I
    know that at least a hand full of children and teenagers ARE NOT
    going to have to face the same problems and self image questions
    that I and others here have had to do. And coming to grips with
    doubts and questions that go to the very core of what makes you
    male can and does do damage to your own life and to relationships
    that you have with S/O's in your life. 
    
    		Dave....