Conference moira::naturism

RE: .0
    
>>>    I feel that if I were to try it on my own, I would be looked on as just
>>>    out there for the sights.  How are single men (as in alone) perceived?
>>>    How would I go about finding someone to go with without my intentions
>>>    being misunderstood?  What are my intentions?  

    	Depends on where you go and what you do.
    
    	At a nude beach, there aren't really any restrictions except
        for those things that would get you arrested at a textile beach.
 	You are allowed to check out all the bodies lying around you...
    	...but that's bad manners.
    
        At a naturist camp, the single man is watched a bit more carefully
        to weed out voyeurs who aren't there to enjoy the open air without
        clothing.  This isn't to say that it's not possible to get in;
        some places do allow single men to join.  Single men just have
        to be more careful about what they do. (remember eye-contact).
    
    	At Moonstone, I've seen alot of single men.  No problems...
    	I would think that most single men (alone) would not want to cause
        any problems at the beach where alot of people worry about
        jerks closing down their nude beach.
    
        The [single] ones on the beach (on the ocean or the campground) who are
        really experiencing nudism will most likely be sunning or reading
	or doing something besides constantly looking around.  Of course,
    	looking around IS okay...you'd have to be comatose if you didn't
    	want to look.  Just don't stare...(not polite :-))

    	It's hard to find someone to go nuding with.  They would have
    	to be very open about the whole idea, particularly if they are
        of the opposite sex.  The person would have to trust you very
        much or be VERY open-minded.

    	If I were you, I'd try nuding alone in some place where there
   	are no people around; then you can figure out if you really
        enjoy nudism for its own merits or if you want to be around 
        nude people.  

    	Naturism is enjoyable, whether you are alone or with someone.
    
    	Ben

    RE: .2
    
>>>    Forget the East Coast Beaches for now.

    	Ahem!  Excuse me, but there's nothing wrong with
    	Moonstone in Rhode Island! :-)
    
    	But that's not relevant, considering the node of .0 is somewhere
    	in Illinois.
    
RE: .0
    
    Back in my textile days, I always wanted to try nudism but was afraid
    of other people finding out.  I tried being outdoors alone at night
    to see what it was like and found out that I enjoyed sitting or
    walking around in the cool air without the contriction of clothes.
    When I was comfortable with that, I tried it in the daylight at
    a friend's pool (no one was home) and was comfortable with that.
    Finally I tried it around other people (at a campground) and got
    comfortable enough that I don't worry about it anymore.  However,
    I'm still not as comfortable as other people I know (Hi Judy!).     
        

    re: .0
    
         It isn't appropriate for you to try to pawn off the 
    responsibility for dressing or undressing onto someone else...
    including your wife...the decision must be yours.  However,
    it also isn't appropriate, in my view, to be cavalier and say
    "Damn everything" to everyone/everything else either.  You
    also have a responsibility there.  You should determine what
    your own inner feelings are, what your mind is also saying,
    and then decide what you'd like to do.  If it is important enough
    for you, then do it...but be clear and guilt-free.  Whether it
    is important enough for you to share it with your wife depends
    on the degree of openness you share with her, your integrity and
    your responsibility towards your agreements.  
         The "ends" are not as important as the "means".  The form
    is not always as relevant as the context or the content.  In other
    words, nudity in and of itself is not a big deal.  Just like sex
    has varying degrees of impact (that is, the amount one enjoys it
    depends on attitudes...how much you like the other person, e.g.,)
    so nudity depends on your attitudes.  
         I have stated before in here that I do massage professionally
    (after DEC hours.)  Well, what is interesting is what effect (or
    lack thereof) nude bodies have on me.  A couple of months ago I
    massaged a very beautiful female (who works where I do) who was
    completely nude for the massage therapy session.  A couple of days
    later she happened to sit on my lap for a brief few moments.  I
    will swear to you that having her sit on my lap aroused me while
    rubbing her naked body did not.  Why or why not?  Because of the
    context.  The context of the massage is one of trust and integrity
    to deliver the intention of the massage.  THAT responsibility is
    important to my principles and character.  My response becomes
    clinical and observational without much judgement.  Sitting on my
    lap, however, was a different situation which allowed me an 
    opportunity to react sexually, which I briefly did (unbeknownst
    to her, I might add.)  
         So you see, you have to determine what you want, etc. for
    yourself.   Then act, if you wish, on your decision.  Keep in
    mind one thing, perhaps:  not only do people have an impact on
    you, but that you have an impact on them.
    
    
    Frederick
    

>              A question I keep asking myself is "am I interested because
>   of the naked bodies, or am I really interested in feeling free of
>   the clothes?"  I am not sure I can answer that.  Is that a normal
>   or natural question to ask oneself?  Did any of you experience this
>   wondering?

    I've certainly thought about this.  I wonder if any of us *haven't*.
    I don't think you can disentangle those interests.  I suspect that I
    speak for many of us when I say that I enjoy being nude, and I enjoy
    seeing others nude.

    Of course, you can't really know until you've open-mindedly entered
    into the experience.  Once you have, you'll probably find that you're
    much more comfortable (and not just because of the social pressure)
    being nude at a clothing-optional beach than being clothed there.

    For the rest of your questions, I think you've gotten some good advice
    in the earlier responses.  Note particularly Ben's point that you can
    start off "practicing" being nude non-socially, before committing
    yourself to social nudity.

    See also the replies in note 27 having to do with SO's who are averse
    to nudism.

    	-Neil

    
    	   I like being naked, and I like it when other people feel
    	free enough to be naked.  I do not get sexually aroused by
    	public nudity, but I will not deny that there is another
    	form of arousal... the arousal brought on by the freedom
    	to walk among my fellow humans without my masks.  The 
    	freedom to stop being "Mr. Suit-And_Tie" and become Greg
    	Davis, human being at large.
    
    	   Of course, there is the problem of where to put my 
    	cigarettes and keys (since the pockets are on the clothing
    	I left behind, and since I don't carry a purse).  
    
    	- Greg

>    Of course, there is the problem of where to put my cigarettes and keys
 
    In an ideal society not only would nudity be allowed, cigarettes
    and keys would be unknown.

Peter

    re: .7
    
    	   Well, I'm not going to hold my breath.  I couldn't
    	anyway, since I smoke.
    
    - Greg

    The comments I have received are much appreciated.  I am still not
    sure of the next thing to try, but I am encourged.  I travel around
    the country quiet a bit, and often find myself in warm climates.
    For instance, I was in Phoenix this week, and I was in Palm Beach
    last week.  I will be back in those places in the next month or
    so.  While traveling these past two weeks, I at least tried going
    without in my hotel room.  I must admit that I honestly enjoyed
    being unencumbered.  IT FELT GOOD.  I suspect that is what most
    people in this conference have been saying.  I don't know if or
    when I will try it with others around, but from now on I will be
    enjoying a bit of freedom in the room.  
    
    If there is anyone out there in the Palm Beach area or Phoenix area
    that would not mind giving me a few pointers next time I am in the
    area, let me know.  I would appreciate some support should I go
    outside the walls of the hotel room.  I would probably chicken out,
    but having someone I knew giving me encouragement would help.
    
    Again, thanks for the responses to my original note.  They were
    much appreciated.
    
    Jack
    

    Some high-rise hotels in some cities have sun decks on their roofs
    and some of them are open for nude sunbathing.  I remember the
    Newport Hotel in Miami has this.  In some places, these sundecks
    are secluded or unused so it is a possible place to try out
    nude sunbathing in some reasonable level of seclusion.
    
    B.
    

    
    Jack, I too have been monitering this conference for some time.
    Curiosity about something I've never encountered first hand.(ie, Just
    who are these people who "go nuding" with other people around?) p Since
    I can remember I've preferred to not have clothes on. I "get nekkid"
    whenever I can. When home alone, in hotel rooms, etc. 
    
    Outdoors is definitely better. I don't know what it is that makes being
    nude appealing, other than perhaps the feeling of discarding society's
    trappings (I'm a closet 60's hippie). Somehow, the satisfaction is
    greater when outdoors. (More removed from society's trappings, I
    suppose) 

    But I've never done so with other people around. And I've often
    wondered, particularly since reading this file, what that would be
    like. 

    On the one hand, being with other people who share the same (albeit
    sort of weird) outlook should be nice. Camaraderie, kindred souls, all
    that. 

    On the other hand, what I like about being nude outdoors is the
    "oneness" I feel with nature (yeah, it sounds hokey, but its true). I
    question whether I wouldn't feel that others were an intrusion and/or
    pdistraction. Particularly distraction! Which leads to another "on the
    other hand". 

    I have read the repeated oh, what if I get a *gasp* erection questions,
    and have been amused at the various replys. I have read all the "its
    not about sex" comments. I believe what they say. I also believe
    skydiving is fun, but somebodys gonna have to push me out the door the
    first jump! 

    I just don't know what I'd be like, feel like, and, frankly, as you
    indicate in your note, I am concerned about coming across as some kind
    of creep. I have a hell of a time keeping my eyes on an attractive
    woman's face (read: off the rest of her) in fully clothed situations.
    And before everybody tells me how sexist I am for saying *attractive
    woman*, all women are attractive. At the beach or pool, I just love to
    admire the scenery. Thats all, just admire the scenery. But, I somehow
    expect that if I did so at a 'camp' the gendarmes (a nude "Church
    Lady", perhaps) would jump out of the bushes and exile me to
    pervert-land. 

    Some of these misgivings no doubt stem from Puritan-ethic mores in
    society, and in my own background. I well recall hearing of "dirty old
    men" who "expose themselves", lear at women, etc. So I have this fear
    of being one of "them". 

    I also don't know about the other men. Would I look? Would I make
    comparisons? Would somebody see me looking and think I'm ... Yeah, I
    know, more phobias. Intellectually, I consider that all garbage. But
    until you do something, you just aren't sure how you'll react, since
    reactions aren't intellectual. 

    BTW, many people might consider the preceding pp really goofy, since
    most men are in locker-room situations fairly frequently. But even
    though men's locker rooms are generally 'open' versus what I've heard
    about women's, it seems to me that with all the men wandering around
    'casually' nude, they all have their eyes riveted straight ahead, or at
    the ceiling or floor or something. Dual phobia (recalled from my
    youth): 

    a: if you are embarrassed to be "nekkid" in front of the other guys
    then you're probably "queer". 

    b: if you look at the other guys then you're really probably "queer". 


    I'd wager most American men have grown up in this sort of atmosphere. 


    (Please, don't anybody take this as me being judgemental about anyone's
    sexual preferences. I'm talking about what society loads people
    up with, which remains as 'baggage' even when intellectually one
    outgrows the attitude.)
    
    
        On a more positive note: I've also perused the net.rec.nude file Neil
    Faiman imports, and found a listing of places around Chicago. (Yes, to
    all you folks other than Jack, I also work in Chicago, and Jack and I
    know each other. We just never discussed THIS!). There's Illinois Beach
    State Park (On Lake Michigan North of the City. I've been there; didn't
    stumble across any nude or identifiably co section, but wasn't looking
    for same.) The note didn't give any more specifics. 

Theres Rose Farm Pond in Woodstock, and Gifford Rd Quarries in Elgin.

I will probably take an innocent bike ride to Elgin next summer, wander 
in to Gifford Rd Quarry, and see what I do then.

I realize this is long-winded, but I did want to recount my "favorite 
nude experience" as so many of the introductory notes do. 

    Last September I went hiking and camping in the Smokey Mountains for a
    week. I hiked up Mt LeConte (6600+ ft, 2nd highest peak east of Miss.
    R.) Its a popular destination - several trails to the top, and a
    shelter to sleep in. I started early, got to summit abt noon; most
    folks arrive about 3pm or so. So I had the place to myself. Went out on
    a rocky promontory - surrounded by Mt. Laurel, Heather, etc. Spread out
    a towel on the rocks, stripped, and sunned for about 2 hrs. Absolute
    quiet except for the wind in the pines, clouds 1000 feet below moving
    up the valleys, mountains fading into the mist to the horizon in all
    directions. 

    I tell you, it was almost religious. That is what Naturism is to me.
    And believe me, it was better naked. 


    Don Cooley

    

    RE: .12
    
    	I likes' your note !
    
    	WELCOME ....to Naturism, where being nude with others is one
    	of the highest forms of individual expression anyone will ever achieve.
    	People hide behind their clothes, and are quick to judge others
    	on first appearances.  It takes you only 30 seconds to make 10 major
    	decisions about a clothed person you've just met for the first
    	time.  When people are free of clothing, you get a unique chance
    	to meet that person for who and what they really are, they become
    	more open about themselves, and much more honest.
        
    	Welcome to the conference.  I hope you will join in with our
    	discussions, instead of just monitoring as most people do. 
    	Don't be afraid to say how you feel, no-one here will ridicule
    	you.  And, I urge you to get outside more often.  Practise makes
    	perfect.  The more you practise naturism, the more comfortable
    	you will become.  
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Darrell           

    re: .12 (Don)
    
    	   HEY!  I come from Tennessee, and spent much time in the
    	Smokeys myself, though never nude.  About two months ago I went
    	back and stayed in a chalet on Mt. LaConte.  It was a little
    	to crowded there to get away with public nudity... but the
    	other side of the mountain (where I suspect you went) might
    	be great.  Thanks for the tip.  I'll try it out next time I
    	head home.
    
    	- Greg

    Re:  .12
    
    Your reactions seem pretty normal for someone who hasn't yet tried the
    social scene.  Find a spot where you can be relaxed, get into it, and
    maybe in five or ten minutes you won't be comparing yourself to the
    other men or thinking about the women as "nude women".  It does take
    some time to break down these thought patterns, but the result, to me
    at least, is nice.

    
    RE 121.12>
    
    I've been checking this conference out for a few months and I can't
    stay quiet any longer.  Note 12 was the straw!  I'm actually in
    a hurry so I'm going to try to brief.
    
    Point 1) I'm a hippie (although I've always preferred the term
             freak)from the late 60s/early 70s period (not closet 
             by any means!!).  Being what you are and what you do
             proves no problem for me - even knitting in public!
             But I do have a few hangups -which this society in the
             good ol USA delight on instilling in people.  So after
             reading this conference for a while I've decided that
             although my closet door has been open it's time to come
             on out.  I've decided to hit the Ledges next summer!
    
    Point 2) I know where Don and Jack are coming from.  But I have
             already tried the following experiment and I liked the
             results.
             A. Swim with clothes on.
             B. Swim with clothes off.
             C. Compare
             I'm no fool - I had more fun with clothes off!!
    
    Point 3) I too would like to leave with an annecdote.  After my
             junior year in high school about 30 kids from my class
             went up to Conway N.H.  We were out on the lake when 
             someone suggested that we go 'skinny dipping'.  There
             were both sexes there and we were probably all pretty
             wasted.  Well it took some talk but I finally consented.
             (all those American repressions built up in me dontcha
             know!!)  No more than five minutes after I had thrown
             my clothes in a nearby canoe someone tipped it over. I
             was so busy diving for other peoples clotes I didn't get
             my own.  To make a long story short an hour later when
             I wanted to come out I was too embarressed.  By then every
             one else had gathered on the shore -picture Gilligan's
             Isle!- and were having fun at the expense of my modesty!
    
             I believe I've overcome that (although I've been skinnying
             several times since then and flounce around the apartment
             when the shades are drawn - hence the open closet door
             status) and am ready to face the sunshine!! (again)
    
    Good luck,
    
    Luis