Conference moira::naturism

    If you're a parent, you've probably concluded that modesty is not a
    natural concept for small children.  Luckily, hardly anyone will get
    worked up about a naked baby.  Elspeth (our daughter) never saw a need
    for clothes when playing outside in the summer. 

    But there are neighbours.  When Elspeth was around three, we were
    living in a subdivision with no particular privacy, and we had to start
    explaining to her that there are people who don't like seeing you with
    no clothes on, and that it was ok to be naked in the back yard, but not
    in the front yard.

    Now, it's very hard to convincingly tell a small child that there's
    nothing *wrong* with doing X, but that she mustn't do X anyways,
    because people will get upset.  We weren't naturists then, but we
    realized (accurately, I think) the contradictions in telling Elspeth
    that there was nothing wrong with her body, but that she mustn't let
    the neighbours see it.

    In fact, this was one of the biggest things that brought us to
    naturism:  how to honestly (i.e., in actions, not just words) convey a
    message of body acceptance.  (In our own home, of course, nudity has
    never been an issue for us.)

    At age seven, I would describe Elspeth as "clothing-optional".  She is
    perfectly happy in clothes, and she no longer plays naked outside
    (except when she's being an Indian), even though we now have the
    privacy for it.  But she's also perfectly happy unclothed when playing
    in the water or at the beach.  She understands that the world is
    divided up into "clothes places" and "no-clothes places", and she seems
    quite comfortable in both. 

	-Neil

Neil, What a neat account of your daughter's life.  I can remember as a child,
say around 10 years old, when I was too hot my mother told me to take off my 
shirt.  This was outside when playing with neighborhood kids.  Then I started
"budding" (developing breasts) and then it became wrong to run around without 
a shirt on.

I didn't understand the difference.  I was still the same person.  I was very
frustrated.  As you can probably tell, I wasn't raised in a naturist atmosphere,
unfortunately and sad.

I also have a very vivid memory of staying overnight with an aunt and uncle.  I 
happened by their bedroom when my uncle was standing there naked.  When I came
by again, he had covered up.  I thought to myself I had done something wrong by
seeing him naked and would probably thought nothing of it if he had remained 
uncovered.  It's amazing what vibes kids pick up from adults.  Remain natural
and un-nerved and the kid thinks that the way it is supposed to be. :-)

Judy

                           
       I had one of those awkward parenting moments this weekend. I was
       caught off-guard by a comment my 5 year old son made (anyone with
       kids can attest to how a young child can completely blow your
       well thought out plans on introducing them to certain subjects
       with a single unexpected question). I'm bringing this up here
       because I would appreciate and value the input from members of
       this conference. 
       
       Well, what happened was this, we were out shopping (they always
       bring these things up when you're in public) and my son told me
       he had a secret to tell me. When I bent down he whispered in my
       ear "Do you know Chris' dad has pictures of naked girls in his
       garage?". 
       
       I talked with him a little about how pictures like that are not
       nice, but I was unable, at least to my satisfaction, to explain
       to him that it was how those pictures were intended that what was
       not nice not the nudity. I wanted him to know that being naked is
       not 'bad' but the exploitative, sexual nature of those pictures
       was 'bad'. I want to keep him from equating nudity with sex. I
       want him and his little brother to grow up with a healthier view
       of the human body. 
       
       So my question is, what can I say (or do) to teach him these
       things? We are not (yet) 'public' naturist. Around our house we
       don't go out of our way to be nude but then again we don't go out
       of our way not to be. My sons (at least the older one) know the
       difference between men's and women's bodies and we've always made
       a point of answering 'body questions' in a honest,
       straight-forward way. 
       
       Any input?
       
       Thanks
       
       dean
       

    Dean,

    That's a very hard question... which means, I think, that it's a good
    question.

    Without going into the subject of pornography (let's leave that for a
    different topic), I believe that there are several convincing reasons
    that pornography is not a good thing.  However, they aren't reasons
    that I would expect to make any connection at all with the world of a
    five-year-old.  I would expect that any attempt to explain to a small
    child why pornography is bad would end up as "pictures of naked people
    are bad," which translates pretty directly to "naked people are bad,"
    or even "the nakedness of people is bad."

    I can't tell you the right answer, but I can try to guess what I would
    do.

    First of all, I don't expect that the sort of pornography a small child
    is going to see in a neighbour's garage (presumably "Playboy" pictures
    -- pictures of naked girls) is going to damage him.  (I would be more
    concerned about explicitly sexual pictures, but I suspect that even
    those would be nothing more than an oddity to a healthy five-year-old.)

    So my response would not be, at that age, to try to explain why I
    disapprove of pornography, but just to minimize the significance of the
    whole thing.  Your son has obviously already learned the societal
    lesson that pictures of naked girls are a little nasty (since it was a
    secret that he had to whisper to you).  At that age, rather than trying
    to draw an abstract distinction about the intent of the pictures, I
    would try to counter that lesson. 

    The tack I would take might be either "So what?" ("What's so special
    about naked girls?") or "That seems sort of silly."  Or in my case, we
    being nudists already, I might (if I was feeling especially pedantic)
    try explaining that some people disapprove of people *being* naked, so
    then they have to go and get pictures if they want to see what naked
    people are like ... and that really *is* silly. 

    Part of the rationale for raising children in a naturist lifestyle is
    to innoculate them, as it were, against all the unhealthy attitudes
    that go with "modesty" and body shame.  Someone who has been brought up
    in an environment where he or she is regularly exposed to the bodies of
    real people of all sexes, ages, shapes and sizes, is much less likely
    to get caught up in the fantasies of unfulfilled curiosity.  I know
    that when I last looked at a copy of Playboy, I was appalled at the
    artificiality of the images.  Seeing real people is so much more
    rewarding!

    Then, maybe when they're 8, or 10, or 12, or 14 (I have a seven-year-
    old -- what do I know about adolescents?) if they have a healthy
    attitude about nudity, they'll be prepared for an abstract
    understanding of some of the bizarre consequences of other people's
    unhealthy attitudes about nudity.

    This is the best I can do with your question this morning.  I've been
    long and rambling, I'm afraid; but I hope there's something in here
    that will be useful to you.

    	-Neil

    
    
    At 5 years old the concepts of sexuality and exploitation may be
    beyond your son's grasp. If the picture were sexually explicit a
    visit to Chris' Daddy may be in order and perhaps some of the where
    does baby come from books for your son but that is another issue.
    As you suggest the pictures are probably of the Playboy variety.
    
    I explained it to my kids (all 4 of them) this way: There is nothing
    wrong with nudity in the proper place. At home with just the family
    or with people we know who don't mind be nude, or at the campground 
    where everyone else is nude is perfectly fine BUT, some people do not 
    like to either be naked or see other people naked so if there are 
    strangers or guests we keep our clothes on until we know how they 
    feel about it. You must let mother and father find out so don't you 
    ask. There are other people who don't want to go naked but like to 
    look at pictures which may be the case with Chris' daddy. That too is 
    okay for them but we keep our clothes on when they are around. If
    you are not sure about what a person will think, keep your clothes
    on and after they have gone ask Mother or Dad if it owould be okay
    to go naked next time they are around.
    
    The question came up why don't people like to go naked or see other
    people naked. Without getting into any moral or psycological judgement
    I just said ," I don't know. I guess it is for the same reason that
    some people like squash and others don't so we won't force it on
    them."
    
    I hope this helps you. It seems to have worked alright with my kids.
    The only one who really does not like to be nude is my youngest
    daughter nut she doen't care how the people around her are dressed
    or undressed. We have been at home nudists since my wife and I got
    married and occasionally have been skinny dipping at lakes or beaches.
    Ussually just as a family but sometime with friends who felt the same way.
    So far none of the family has been willing or daring enough (as
    far as I know) to try it at a camp or beach with strangers. I did
    before I got married and wasn't bothered by it at all.
    
    Steve
    

    Come on...you can't sit there and tell me that you would not be
    uncomfortable if your 17 year old daughter brought her boyfriend
    home and wanted to take off all her clothes and claim "isn't this
    wonderful....I feel soooo close to nature" while this guy is falling
    off his chair.  
                                             
    I just don't feel that it is appropriate.

  .1>  ... She understands that the world is
  .1>  divided up into "clothes places" and "no-clothes places", and she seems
  .1>  quite comfortable in both. 

  .5>  I explained it to my kids (all 4 of them) this way: There is nothing
  .5>  wrong with nudity in the proper place.
    
  .7>  Come on...you can't sit there and tell me that you would not be
  .7>  uncomfortable if your 17 year old daughter brought her boyfriend
  .7>  home and wanted to take off all her clothes and claim "isn't this
  .7>  wonderful....I feel soooo close to nature" while this guy is falling
  .7>  off his chair.
    
    Re .7
    
       Could you tell us which note you're replying to? Because, frankly,
    I've re-read each of the replies in this topic and can't apply your
    response to any of them.
    
    
    Frank

    
    
    re: .7
    
    A clothed boyfriend - a nude "full figuresd 17 year old in your
    living room?  
    
    The tone of the note implies a bit of synicism (sp.). Either you
    said that to raise a few hackles or you are not as comfortable as
    you may imagine yourself.
    
    True - if it happened the way you describe it I would not be
    uncomfortable I would be bloody well P***ed at my daughter. I would
    have hoped that by 17 she would really be aware that there is a
    right time place and condition for being nude or anything else for
    that matter. This action, to me anyway, would indicate that the
    girl does not care for a- her family, b- herself, c- her boyfriend,
    d- all of the above. If this is the case then somewhere along the 
    line I screwed up in her upbringing.
    
    Another possibility is a try for shock value some kids will try
    anything once just to get a reaction from the parents or to flaunt
    their independance and indiviuality.
    
    Or it could be a joke. Maybe the boy is also from a nuding family 
    and the kids worked this out to see what your reaction would be. Again
    just shock value.
    
    Did you talk to your daughter about it and try to find out what
    was going on or did you just flip out?
    
    
    

    First of all, I was not responding to any note imparticular, just
    raising this as an issue for discussion.
    
    Whether or not I'm comfortable or uncomfortable with nudity does
    not reflect on how I would feel lounging around with my daughter.
    
    The question I am raising is how do you raise your children with
    the muturity to understand the "look but don't touch" concept?

    Great questions.
   
   >The question I am raising is how do you raise your childern with
    the muturity to understand "the look but dont touch concept"
    
    I think that this would be a good question whether the person is
    clothed or not. I also think at this point one would know thier
    children well enough to know how they would handle this situation.
    I maybe talking out of my head because I dont have a daughter.
    Ive taken my son with me twice to a clothing optional resort but
    I also told him that he could wear a suit if he wanted to, which
    he did. He participated in volley ball games and injoyed himself.
    I didnt wear a suit but I think I feel comfortable with my son no
    matter what I do. 
    
  >Whether or not I'm comfortable or uncomfortable with nudity does
   not reflect on how I would feel lounging around with my daughter.
    
    Yes this does have something to do with the second question
    "Whether or not I'm comfortable or uncomfortable with nudity"
    I think it has to start with the parents before it can be taught
    to your children.
    
    My son is now in college and studing for his engineering degree.
    Im also some what new to naturism. I was brought up in Catholic grade
    schools till my freshman year in high school. I was just curious
    three years ago out camping in the mountains with the wife. Came
    acrossed a couple in a pool nude and decieded if they can, so can
    I. I feel there is a time and place for everything.
    
    PHIL     
    

    Huh ?
    
    	What do you mean "Look but don't touch" ??
    
    	How old are your children ?  Remember, if they are about 9
    and under you won't have much control over it anyway.  Children
    will do what they want to do when you're not around, and most kids
    in this age group know the meaning of playing "doctor".  When they
    reach about 10 years and older, only then do they truly start to
    understand an individual's privacy over their bodies, including
    their own, whether they are clothed or not.  And even then, so what
    if they touch ?  It's all part of a natural learning experience.
    I figure if it seems like it's going to get out of control, then its'
    time to talk about facts.  There's nothing dirty about the human
    body, especially in the minds of children. 
    
    Darrell
    

    
    
    Looking at this hypothetical, which I agree sounds inappropriate,
    situation with the question raised of how to instill the "look 
    but don't touch" attitude puts it in a different light. 
    
    What you are suggesting would really rely on the moral values that
    had been instilled in the child. There are as many ways of doing
    that as there are parents and children. I don't know how you would
    do it. I would not want to suggest ways of teaching a child morals.
    The etiquette of proper time, place, situation of being nude is
    not much different than the etiquette of time , place , situation
    for being noisy. Make noise and run around at the amusement park
    or football game but be quiet and sit still in church and school.
    
    The child, the parents, the general living conditions, all
    have a definite bearing on the childs morals, and that background
    is what has to be looked at and is what makes how you teach a child
    morals as opposed to etiquette very personal and very difficult
    for a parent. 
    
    Like I said in my previous note, depending on the circumstances
    surrounding this hypothetical situation I might wonder where I had
    gone wrong. Sorry there is no easy answer to this one.
    

    See also topic 129, on puberty and embarrassment.
    
    	-Neil

    Another thought/problem...  Our clothing-optional lifestyle is not
    something we go out of our way to make known to friends and family. 
    Some of our friends "know", others don't.  It's usually a matter of
    how/when the subject comes up, and how comfortable we're feeling with
    the particular people.  Family (i.e. parents), though is a whole other 
    story.  Both of our sets of parents (possibly siblings, too) would be 
    shocked if they were aware that we enjoy CO activities.
    
    Now, the "problem"...  We're expecting our first child very soon.  We
    want to continue doing what we've been doing (being nude around the
    house, going to Moonstone, whatever), and we of course want to raise
    our child to feel that these things are OK.  But I think it would cause
    a big problem with our families if their grandchild happened to mention
    to them that Mom and Dad sometimes don't wear any clothes.  (They would
    probably tell me we were doing some terrible psychological damage to
    the child, etc. :-)
    
    So, how do we explain to our child that being nude is OK, but we must
    keep it a secret from some people?  I've read .5 and Steve's approach 
    to why it's not OK to take our clothes off with certain people seems 
    pretty sensible.  I'm also worried about just _talking_ about it.  
    
    I suppose the real solution is for my husband and I to discuss it with
    our families, rather than wait for the probably inevitable day when our
    kid lets the cat out of the bag, but I don't know if we're ready to do
    that yet.
    
    Thoughts?
    

    You might be surprised but kids just don't seem to notice the
    difference between fabric and CO activities, at least when they are
    talking about it.

    When Grandma asks "What did you do yesterday?" the child will answer
    "WE went to the beach and caught crabs and saw fish and flew a kite
    etc. etc. etc." They don't usually say,"we went to a nude beach", or "we
    went to camp Bandybutt and took off our clothes." As far as around the
    house goes, do Mom and Dad or Sis expect you to take a shower with your
    clothes on? Change clothes in the dark in a closet? Maybe a mention to
    the family such as "boy, we went nekkid all day yesterday and it was
    fun." you can then judge how they react. At this stage of the game you
    won't have to worry about the little one spilling the beans for a
    while. (last time I checked Kids don't talk till they're a year old or
    more) Besides Mom and Dad may surprise you and be more progressive than
    you think.

    re:.16
    
    I was wondering the same thing, Deb.  With us, our problem is a
    little different.  I want to raise my child in the type of atmosphere
    you describe, but my step-son hasn't been raised that way and he's
    around frequently.  We'll just have to see what happens.  I can
    just imagine what the in-laws (well, I call them "out-laws") will
    say :-)
    
    re:.17
    
    Your answer is encouraging, Steve.  Thanks!
    
    - Kathryn
    

Deb,

First of all, you don't need to panic -- you shouldn't have much to worry 
about for at least a year or so.

Then, for a good while after that, remember that unless *you* make a big
thing of it, clothes / no-clothes won't be a big thing for a child.  If 
you avoid using words like "nude beach" and "nudist camp", then that won't
be a "nude beach" or a "nudist camp" to your child -- it will be "the beach"
or "the camp we go to for the weekend".  The fact that at some beaches
people wear bathing suits and at some they don't probably won't be very
interesting.

Helping with this is the fact that even in America, you can probably get by
for several years without having to subject your child to bathing suits, 
even at public beaches.  (Pools are a different matter, I suppose.)  So
you have a while before you have to explain why s/he has to wear clothes
at some beaches but not at others.

-----------------

But now I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice.  As an adult, you can
get by pretty well doing things that you don't want "society" (friends,
family, etc.) to know about.  I'm not convinced that it's really healthy;
but the mild dissimulation involved in not telling people *exactly* where
you want last weekend isn't all that much strain.

But with a child, I don't believe that you can really get away with "this is
ok to do, but not ok to talk about".  Oh, you can probably teach him or her
that nudity is a private thing, and not to talk about it outside the family;
but what is the cost going to be to the child?  Personally, I suspect that
s/he is going to be learning that it isn't *really* ok, but that you do it
anyways; and I don't think that that can be healthy.

What this comes down to is a strong suspicion that any sort of hypocrisy is
like poison for a growing child.  There are times when it is necessary:  the
white lies of politeness; or a family in the "underground" in a *really*
oppressive society.  But far better, I think, if we can take our children
as a stimulus to improve ourselves, and overcome our need for secrecy.

What I'm suggesting is that you and your husband should decide whether *you*
really believe that naturism is really, truly, a good thing.  If it is, do
you really need to hide it from people?  And if you can't feel comfortable
about admitting that you do it, then is it really going to be a good thing
for your child?

Those are honest questions, not rhetorical ones.  You may well answer both
of them with a "yes"; in which case, go back to the practical suggestions
at the top of this note.  But I do hope that you will think about them.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that you advertise your naturist activities --
just that you work on cultivating the attitude that there's nothing wrong
with them, and that you don't care who knows about them.  If someone at work 
asks me what I did last weekend, I'll say that I went to the beach, and leave 
it at that.  But life really can become simpler, when you no longer have to 
dread the day when your secret will slip out.

	-Neil

    If you read note 21.2 you can see what my 8 year old daughter had
    to say about our lastest trip to A CO beach, I cannot see anything
    in her description that implies anyone being nude. 
    
    Note: She does mention her wearing swimming togs, but they stayed
    on for less than � an hour. 
    
Peter.    

        
    Our kids "spilled the beans" to both our families our first year
    as nudists. They were about 5 and 8 at the time.

    Our examples and conversation led them to believe, as they still
    do, that it was fine as long as you consider others that may be
    bothered by nudity. They happened to mention it as one of the
    more fun things about our new campground.

    Somewhat to our surprise, none of my or my wife's family have
    had any problems with our nudist lifestyle.

    Considerably older now, 12 & 15, they have chosen to tell a few
    of their friends. We have been careful to avoid possible stress
    and avoid telling folks with kids that might tease.

    Although our kids have told our families and a few others,
    their belief that it is a good lifestyle seems firm. They also
    realize that many others might not agree and their behavior
    around textile folks reflects that.

    - gerry

Subj: saw this in another conference..Thought you might want to post in Naturism

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 1493 of clari.news.interest.quirks:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decuk.uvo.dec.com!hollie.rdg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!lll-winken!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.news.law.crime.trial,clari.news.children,clari.news.interest.quirks
Subject: Nudists cleared of sex charges
Date: 9 Jan 91 17:11:32 GMT
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Approved: [email protected]
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	DETROIT (UPI) -- Mark and Tina Vollbach, practicing nudists and proud
of it, came to court ready to defend their lifestyle and the 15 nude
photographs they took of ther son, daughter, niece and neighbor's
daughter.
	It wasn't necessary. U.S. District Judge Avern Cohn on Tuesday
dismissed all charges against the couple on grounds the photographs were
neither sexual nor commercial in intent.
	``There was no evidence these pictures were viewed by defendants for
sexual purposes. They were just pictures of nude kids,'' said defense
attorney David Steingold.
	The Vollbachs, members of the American Sunbathing Association, were
indicted Sept. 6 by a grand jury on eight counts of sexually exploiting
children, including their 10-year-old son and 8-year-old daughter.
	The charges arose after an East Hartford, Conn., photo lab, which
advertised its services in a nudist magazine, complained to U.S. postal
inspectors that they Vollbachs were sending nude photos through the mail
to be developed.
	On Aug. 22, federal agents went to the Vollbach home near Detroit and
confsicated a family photo album found in a box in a bedroom closet.
	Federal prosecutors deemed that 15 of the 130 or so photos of
children in the album were lascivious.
	The Vollbachs had ``no comment'' when asked if they would take any
more nude photos of their children.
	The Vollbachs now face another court battle. On Jan. 22, they will
try to persuade a juvenile court judge to return their children, who
were removed from their home by the state Department of Social Services
in September.
	The children are in the custody of a relative.

    So, did anyone see 20/20 last Friday night?  Where the FBI had
    confiscated the photos and all the equipment of a professional
    photographer whose primary subject was nudes.  (I was amazed at 
    the photos thay showed on the TV, I did not think they would do
    that).  In one case he had been documenting a family (of I assume 
    naturists) for over ten years.  These were NOT smut shots folks,
    just nudists and in many cases, nude children in natural poses and
    settings.  Sure looked healthy to me.  Anyway, The FBI barged in 
    without a warrant, looked around, then went and got a warrant to take
    his stuff.  It appears from the article, that in all cases involving
    children he had parental permission (for what that is worth to the
    Feds).  If they keep it up, we will have to bath our infant children 
    in a darkened room.  
    
    I tell you folks, we got trouble right here in the good ole US of A.
    What we oughta do is make the feds confiscate EVERY copy of National
    Geographic that has photos which display the genitals of nude children
    (that is their criterium for lewd and lascivious).  That should keep 
    those idiots busy for a few years.
    

  I saw it once a long time ago (I'm pretty sure it was a repeat)

  I was watching, and not thinking much of it, ... enjoying the pictures
  and getting quite annoyed at the FBI ...

  And then I realized ... this was ABC (or NBC or whatever) that was
  showing pictures, not edited at all, of nude children, some of which
  were children that were pushing their late teens ...
  
  I was quite amazed that, there was a person who was being arrested
  and prosecuted for taking pictures of his friends children, who were
  all regularly nude, at the beach .. and he was making no money off these
  photographs ... and here was a national TV show, showing these pictures,
  clearly to increase their ratings, and make money ... who was getting
  away with it completely, under the guise of News Broadcasting.

  Basically, the pictures were posed, but quite nice pictures, and very
  natural looking.  (nothing smutty)

  But still it doesn't seem to amaze me, that a photographer with probably
  no means to distribute the pictures widely, would get nailed for it,
  while a nation broadcasting company could put the pictures in millions
  of peoples homes for the sake of making money, and not get the same
  or worse treatment.


  paul 

    see 51.25
    

    Some one please tell me that I am wrong, but it seems that to be a
    naturist parent you are taking a risk with your children. No matter how
    healthy and natural you think naturism is, no matter how well you
    convey this to your children what happens when the *wrong* person finds
    out about your naturism.
    
    	Suppose little Suzie draws a picture of the family at the beach and
    teacher gets alarmed and calls the DSS? This is just one example. 
    There are so many other ways that this information could get out. This
    has nothing to do with how comfortable the parent might be with
    naturism but how you keep custody of your children if someone else
    decides that you are immoral in your naturist pursuits.
    
    From what I have read here and elsewhere there are enough peabrained 
    prudes out there that you could have major legal problems trying to 
    keep custody of your own kids. In two different cases I have read of
    parents loosing custody, winning their court cases, but then having to
    fight the DSS to get their kids back! (What country did I wake up in
    this morning? I *thought* it was the USA. )

    Ugly Social Attitudes
    							John.

re .27 (paranoia):

Heaven knows I've thought about this.  I think my attitude about it is
a mixture of --

	Polyanna-ish optimism (surely it won't happen to *me*)

	An awareness that DSS is like a natural disaster that can happen
	to anyone -- you don't have to be a nudist, or be guilty of anything
	at all, to be a victim

	Knowing that our life is both legal and moral, and being unwilling
	to succumb to mindless conformism to appease the narrow-minded

I also believe (as I suggested in an earlier reply in this topic) that if
you're going to be 'unconventional', it's best not to be secretive about
it -- that if I don't behave as though naturism is something to hide, others
are less likely to feel as though they've stumbled onto a dark secret when
they find out about it.

	-Neil