Conference moira::naturism

       This sounds like a strange question so I will answer in a way
    in which it sounds even stranger...I have noticed women with the
    balding disease (no hair anywhere,) mastectomies, people with warts,
    moles, birth marks, tattoos, different color hair (if you know what I
    mean,) scars from bullets, knives, injuries of all types, operations
    of all types, strectch marks (mostly on women,) discolored skin
    or lack of pigmentation, hair in "odd" places (like, backs,) skin
    diseases (like poison oak, etc.,) not to mention the zillions of
    assorted differences in body structures that are not usually visible
    (like shape of penises or nipples, etc.)  
         Does this answer your pathological question?
    
    Frederick
    

    	Pathological?  That's one of the nicest things anyone has ever
    said about me. :-)
    
    	Seriously, I was more curious about tattoos.
    
    	You see, tattoos are an art form, though not held in the highest
    regard as such.  I just wondered how many folks were carrying around
    a concealed gallery with them (which was probably by deliberate choice).

    People who have nice tattoos don't lie out in the sun much since
    colors will fade much more quickley.  I have seen some very nice
    examples of breast and genital piercing, while I was at the nude
    beach.
    
                                          Paul
    

    re .3:
    
>                                          I have seen some very nice
>    examples of breast and genital piercing, while I was at the nude
>    beach.
    
    It may be art ... but is it comfortable?  Ouch!
    
    More seriously, I have noticed tatoos (or at least the painted
    simulation) fairly often.  I'd always assumed that nudists have
    more tatoos than other people, but .0 reminds me of the obvious
    possibility that perhaps I just don't see other people's tatoos.
    
    Of course, body painting is one of the high arts of nude beaches
    and gatherings.
    
    	-Neil

    I did see one gentleman with quite a tatoo the last time I went
    to Moonstone. It was done to resemble a bathing suit in its placement,
    appeared to be quite elaborate from the few glances I gave it, and
    included places on this man's anatomy that I don't even like to
    think about :-o .
    
    	regards,
    	Mark
    

I've seen only a few tattoos, some on shoulders and some on hineys (bottoms).
Mostly butterflies and flowers (usually just one image in an area), and mostly 
on women.  I can't imagaine very many guys would care for a butterfly tattoo!
:-)

Judy

    I have a friend...well, he has a tattoo on the end of his ...uh,
    penis! A bumble bee. I've never seen it personally, but judging from
    the coments from the fairer sex, it must be impressive. He says
    he was a trifle(?) inebriated at the time.
    
    I wonder if it turns into a B-52 when he's...oh, never mind!
    
    
    ed

    OUCH!!! boy, he must have really had a buzz on to do that!

    I saw a guy at Moonstone once whose entire penis was tatooed as
    well as his whole genital area.  Talk about pain...  this guy
    must have really been a masochist!
    
    - K
    

    
    
     I've seen some very interesting temporary body art on Martha's
     Vinyard  (the cliffs).   
    
     People paint their bodies with all different colored clay.
       
     I saw a totally nude family painted in dark greys and browns from
     head to toe, with some sea weed trappings wrapped around them.
     They kind of looked like something from the black lagoon.
    
     Also, I've seen people create masks and clothing out of the
     clay.  One woman had an entire mask on made out of clay.  
     She looked kind of like the wicked witch of the west.
    
     Its definetly a great beach!
     
     Paul

    Has anyone seen the man at Moonstone with the rings piercing every
    conceivable part of his body? They are thru his nipples, the end of
    his penis, scrotum, everywhere...
    
    His nickname on the beach is, are you ready, ......Heavy metal......
    
    

    I don't know if it's the same individual or not, but./....there
    was a guy in 'P'town last summer that had rings in his nipples,
    and a chain running from the two. He was about 5'9", stocky, HAIRY
    and looked like he ate nails for breakfast (and I don't mean FINGER
    nails).
    
    Now this guy, could give a whole new meaning to 'rattling somebody's
    chain'.
    
    
    ed

       re: .14
    
           I rarely see something that makes me look twice, but 
    a ring through a clitoris?  How is that possible without damaging
    its sensitivity?  And I wonder about sanitation?  
           I find it sad that certain individuals will do anything
    for attention.  Otherwise, if self-esteeming, no problem.  
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .16 (Jay)
      
         Nothing wrong with searching for uniqueness (or, finding it,
    since we already *are* unique.)  What is sad, however, and all of
    us do it do some degree, is seeking or having outside validation
    (which is also okay in and of itself) and using it as a source
    of self-esteem.  Eventually, whatever it is won't last or hold up,
    and if it has been used as the source of self-esteem, then that
    sense of self-esteem vanishes or disappears along with it.  This
    includes Porsches or gold records or educational milestones or
    photographs in Penthouse, etc., etc.  Comparative/competitive,
    better thans/worse thans are among the sure-fire ways to avoid finding 
    true self-esteem.  If this woman gets off on showing everyone her
    "hardware", then I'd say she's got a self-esteem problem...if she
    does it because she likes it, then maybe not.  Same with earrings
    and anything else you could mention.
    
    Frederick
    

Back to the original question-- I saw him at least twice in my 4-5 trips there
this past summer.  I can't wait to go back this comming summer!

Tim

    I've seen unusual things at Moonstone but the ring-man wins the prize
    hands down.  Earrings thru the ears/nose/nipples are one thing but
    rings in/around/thru a penis and other areas has to be seen to be
    believed.
    
    One day last summer the ring-man situated himself next to us.  He was
    lying there asleep and my 1 1/2 year old son went over to his blanket
    to "play with the rings"!  I caught him just in time but everybody on
    the beach got a great laugh.  Being a ring-man can be dangerous.  

    re: .19 (Jay)
    
          Thanks for your reply.  Actually, maybe I am a layman in
    terms of understanding the human psyche.  That's why I've spent
    a couple of tens of thousands of dollars and countless thousands
    of hours studying not only psychology but spirituality and everything
    in between...and I'm still a novice.  Perhaps some day when I become
    an adult I will understand the human psyche more.  In my own little
    undeveloped mind, however, I can't help but wonder sometimes if
    maybe everyone else, most of whom don't bother to spend time or
    money to improve their awarenesses, aren't perhaps just a bit
    primitive, if not also laypeople.  Boggles the mind, doesn't it?
     :-}
         I think, Jay, that I would draw the line at pain and
    self-mutilation, especially when done for cosmetic and little other
    reason.  Piercing ears (and even noses, so I understand) does not
    inflict much pain.  Piercing penises and clits undoubtably must.
    I suppose those humans who in some countries chop limbs off themselves
    in order to justify positions of being beggards would also repulse
    me.  I find it sad, period, that humans stoop to such levels of
    degradation in order to impress those around them.  There are many,
    many other things which anger and sadden me about human behavior,
    too, do you really want an accounting?  
        But I also find the Madison Avenue approach to understanding
    life a bit distasteful, too, so I find it too bad that you and so
    many others don't.  Just because we all have done it doesn't mean
    we must continue in that rut.  Just because most do it doesn't mean
    that *all* do it.  Just because you are able to pee higher than
    any other man does not mean that you can claim all the territory
    you can cover.  As many humans as want to can play the dog eat dog,
    might makes right, domination, control, etc. games that there are...
    this human has made a CONSCIOUS decision to not do that.  THis human
    has also decided that there are ideals and principles, however
    ultimately false, that he will adhere to with as much character
    as possible.  Though I will strive to maintain an image of myself,
    it is MY self-image that is important, not the image of me that
    others have and I don't model my self-image on the approval of others.
    I don't need to mutilate myself in order to establish my own
    identity.  Those that wish to are of course free to do so.  I can
    accept them as they are, yet I can simultaneously hope that some
    day they will grow beyond their child or adolescent views of the
    world around them.  
         There are lines to be drawn, Jay, not on the body, but within
    the mind...failure to draw the lines and failure to observe the
    lines once drawn can only be classified as a breakdown in character.
    By the way, I don't think you are the "professional" you see yourself
    as...would you like for me to recommend some books or studies for
    you?  Or would you rather insist that I do it "your way."
    
    Frederick
    

There is too much of substance being exchanged here for me to step in and 
tell people to cool it.  But mixed in with the substance are elegantly
worded personal comments that are drifiting close to the bounds of this
conference's policies (as applied by this moderator).

Gently, please, gently...

	-Neil Faiman, NATURISM co-moderator

Pain: Penile piercing is not painful.  While that information is second hand to
me, I trust my sources.  Rather it is said to enhance stimulation during sex. So
while the act of peircing and subsequent healing might be painful (I have no
report on that) the final long term result I understand is quite the opposite of
pain.

Vanity: As for the vanity of it, consider it can only be vanity when shown, and
in a clothed society there are not enough nude opportunities to endure what
people so far have assumed to be painful.

Art: If it is regarded as art by some, then any artist or art fan must be
prepared for someone else to utterly deny it is art.  Rock music, Pop Art, and
even religious ritual have all been regarded as both art and non-art among
people I've met.  I am not trying to justify the practice, just observing what
I'm seeing as a parallel between this discussion and "art" criticism.

This HAS been a fascinating discussion! I think, however, my fascination is 
somewhat akin to that of the gawkers at a traffic accident. This stuff is just 
too bizarre!

BTW, I recognize that many, many societies (perhaps all?) have traditions of 
body adornment, and we ARE talking about degrees. I for one pretty much think 
any degree is weird. But then I tend to be a naturalist by preference - "less 
is better" as applied to many things. 

So the argument that "well, we accept earrings and makeup" doesn't hold for 
me. Yes, I accept them, in that I don't clap my hand over my mouth, gasp, and 
point when I see someone with lipstick (or spiked green hair). But they're not 
for me. I don't find perfumes appealing; a woman who smells like a flower is 
a woman who smells like a flower. If I'm attracted to a woman because of 
physical attributes, it'll be HER attributes, not the ones she gets from 
bottles, jars, etc. "Unnatural" colors of eyes & lips, "foreign" scents, are 
just distractions. After all, you can put lipstick on a fencepost; that 
doesn't make it appealing (at least not to me). Not that I think slovenliness
is preferable - I'd prefer that folks bathe rather than get gamy, and a 
deodorant which kills "odor-causing-bacteria" is certainly acceptable; just 
please don't make it perfumy. Likewise mouthwash. BTW: yes, my daughters got 
their ears pierced. I expressed my opinion and then shut up. They then made 
their own decisions.

If I seem to be homing in on male/female physical attraction, well, yes, I am.
I do think that virtually all aspects of "body adornment" can be attributed to 
the natural procreation urge and competition (and yes, I'm ABSOLUTELY amateur 
at psych :-> ). Paint, tattoos, rings, plates in lips, penis sheaths (do they 
pad those like bras?) spiked hair, earrings, miniskirts, pantyhose, padded 
bras, lacy unpadded bras, perfumes, crotchless panties... to me they're all
degrees of the same thing, very much akin to bird-of-paradise adornment.
They're means of attracting the opposite sex and showing the competition that
you're better. In our society, material possesions, to some, do the same
thing. The symbolism of a BMW is that it's owner is "successful", and
therefore a good potential mate - (oh, let's breed some more Beamer-owners;
come here, big boy!). Of course, it has become less literal than that; it
becomes just general one-upsmanship. 

Folks who want to do all/any of that are welcome to. I can't help feeling a 
little condescending about it though; they "need" to enhance themselves with 
some sort of artificial dressing to make themselves feel acceptable. But then 
I "need" to feel that my "spare tire" is minimal and not a real put-off, so I 
periodically shave off a few accumulated pounds. I also work out regularly, 
mostly for the feeling of well-being, but I do look in the mirror at the 
results. What's the difference? Probably none. I tend to think I'm preening 
over "natural" appearance, and that that is somehow better. But then we all 
write our own rules, don't we?

One can ask how a penis ring is expected to attract anyone; of course, to me 
its truly bizarre, but so is spiked green hair, and that seems fairly popular 
in some circles. So this is just a smaller sub-culture. 

One of the things that appeals to me about Naturism is that it seems to promote
"accept me for who/what I am" rather than "look what I can afford to buy and
drape on my body." So the whole concept of body adornment/mutilation with
tattoos, jewelry, or paint seems contradictory to it (painting as a lark for a
Halloween party or even for no particular reason is different, somehow). 

Oh well, to each his/her own. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to live 
and let live. (Anyone want to add a few more mixed metaphors?)

I gotta tell you, though, the first time I see someone with pierced nipples or 
genitals, I'm gonna freak out. Makes me cringe just to think about it.

Don Cooley

    ps: I drafted this before reading -.1's discussion of the typical
    regulations re f