Conference moira::naturism

    Clothed with the Sun 6.3 (Fall 86) has the following comments about
    Puerto Rico (apparently a letter from a couple who live there):

        The beaches, ... remain clothes optional basically by virtue of
        their seclusion.  It is more or less finding a secluded spot and
        hoping some ultraconservative family with the mother in her dress
        wading out into the ocean with "los ninos" or a bunch of half drunk
        teenagers do not come to the beach you're at and spoil it.  Believe
        me, it *is* different here than in the states. 

	In any event, we have a system whereby we put some lounge chairs on
	their sides with towels over them and then lay on the opposite side
	from where cars would come and park.  If people do show up, we
	discreetly wrap something around us or put on bathing suits and
	they don't know the difference.  Trying to be sensitive naturists,
	we don't want to p*** somebody off.

	We have come to realize that Puerto Rico, for all of its beauty, is
	not exactly a naturist's paradise.  ...

    Not too promising, I'm afraid.

    	-Neil

re: the previous replies on Puerto Rico

I spent a great vacation down in Puerto Rico and I didn't even spend one
minute in the nude (outdoors that is).  Believe it or not one can have a 
enjoyable time sans naturism once in a while.  Let me explain.

Some time ago I entered (against my better judgment) a discussion in net.
rec_nude on what I consider the abuses of naturists in third-world countries.
In this particular case the country in question was Jamaica, and of course
the discussion was about Hedonism II (an apt name if there ever was one).
I'm all for naturism and free beaches, but in my opinion you can not couple
it with a local culture that runs counter to it.

For example in the previous reply the writer describes Puerto Rican society
as not "enlightened" enough to accomodate naturism.  Enlightened by whose
standards?  Puerto Rican culture and mor�s are dominated by a native
conservatism and the church, but that does that make it repressive in your
eyes?  If so then you are missing some necessary peripheral vision.

Naturists should have the good sense to respect a local culture and political
situation.  What got me going in the Jamaica discussion was the fact that
here was a country with 75% unemployment, people dying to get off the island,
and at a resort you have first-worlders engaging in their particular brand
of indulgence (and let's face it boys and girls, naturism is am indulgence).

My point is this, that you shouldn't make the mistake of applying first-world
values to the third-world.  What maybe cool on Moonstone (or is it still?)
isn't so cool in Puerto Rico, and that's not necessarily so bad.  Have 
respect for the culture that you are visiting.

David 

    re .3, I don't disagree with the essential point of your note, I
    think; nor, I suspect, would the author of .2 -- please reread that
    note carefully, noting particularly the quotation marks around the
    word 'enlightenment'. 
    
    But as a naturist, how can I not be regretful when native mor�s
    (whether in the third world or in New Hampshire) lead to the
    suppression of what I see as a desirable life style? 
    
    Please take the following not as criticisms of your note, but
    as serious questions raised by it:
    
        How would you relate the issues of "cultural imperialism" in
        general and "naturist colonialism" in specific? 
    
        What makes the difference between acceptable agitation for
        naturist rights here at home and unacceptable violation of
        cultural standards abroad? 
                                  
    -Neil

> and at a resort you have first-worlders engaging in their particular brand
> of indulgence (and let's face it boys and girls, naturism is am indulgence).
   
    Is it naturism that's an indulgence, or is it flying to Jamaica to
    enjoy a vacation in the sun?
    
    I don't feel like I'm being particularly self-indulgent when I go to
    the Ledges for a summer afternoon (well, ok, I could be working in
    the yard or writing some code) or when I take off my clothes and go
    around the house naked.
    
    On the other hand, by my own standards, flying off to a Caribbean
    resort for a week would constitute an indulgence, regardless of
    whether I wore any clothes while I was there. 
    
    	-Neil

    >re .3, I don't disagree with the essential point of your note, I
    >think; nor, I suspect, would the author of .2 -- please reread that
    >note carefully, noting particularly the quotation marks around the
    >word 'enlightenment'. 
    
    I've re-read .2, however what sort of "stuck in my craw" was his remark
    about their cultural and religious mor�s were impeding their economic
    development.  The reality is just the opposite, Puerto Rico enjoys
    the highest per capita income of any island (including Cuba) in the 
    Carribean, about $4500 annually.  That may not seem like squat in 
    our terms but in that region that allows for at least the existance
    of a middle-class, unusual for the third-world.  Of course this 
    doesn't mean that poverty doesn't exist, it does, but doesn't it 
    also here in the U.S.?

    In the hotel where we stayed the people of the nearby town of 
    Dorado are able to join a beach club, much like the same kind of
    deals hotels here offer during the summer season.  So on a Sunday
    it's not unusual to see the hotel facilities being used to the 
    max by townspeople.  Based on a previous visit to Jamaica, (if
    anyone could afford such a thing), a local would be shot, harassed,
    arrested, or some such pleasantry visited upon him/herself.

    >But as a naturist, how can I not be regretful when native mor�s
    >(whether in the third world or in New Hampshire) lead to the
    >suppression of what I see as a desirable life style? 
    
    The point is that we here see naturism as a desirable lifestyle,
    but our opinions cannot overrule an entire society.
    
        >How would you relate the issues of "cultural imperialism" in
        >general and "naturist colonialism" in specific? 
    
    Let's not go so far as to use the term "naturist colonialism"(sounds 
    a bit weird too).  I'm more comfortable with the term cultural chauvinism
    as opposed to invoking imperialism or colonialism.

    Cultural chauvinism is just the point I was making in the USENET debate.
    What's feels right in New Hampshire does not necessarily fit in 
    Zimbabwe or India.  There are localities in the third world that have
    made accomodations for naturists and topless bathers such as some of the
    islands in the Carribean (the French ones in particular), Ivory Coast,
    Tunisia, and a few South Pacific islands.  So your options aren't 
    exactly shut off once you get south of the equator.

        >What makes the difference between acceptable agitation for
        >naturist rights here at home and unacceptable violation of
        >cultural standards abroad? 
                                  
    Well for one thing when you agitate for naturist rights at home you
    are doing within the confines of your society.  Although the majority
    of beaches, lakes, etc. are still restrictive in terms of clothes-
    optionality, I think that you'd agree that the acceptance of nudity/
    toplessness is wider than in the third world for myriad reasons.
	    
    >Is it naturism that's an indulgence, or is it flying to Jamaica to
    >enjoy a vacation in the sun?
    
    No I'm all for vacations in the sun, but let's admit the fact that if
    we have to wear bathing suits during our vacations we'll "live"
    through the experience.  So no vacations aren't an indulgence but
    naturism is.

    David

    re: .7
    
    Ok I'll agree with what you say about no easy interface with the
    third world.  But in my many travels and residences I found the
    best attitude to have with the locals is to "back off" a bit and
    experience their attitudes before continuing my ways.
    
    David

If nudity at the beach is risky, does anyone have an idea as to what is safe.

	May be going to Puerto Rico soon.

	ed

    
    I'd heard that Puerto Rico doesn't think too highly of public
    nudity, but I can't speak from experience.
    
    Sue

    Puerto Ricians probably don't think too highly of Americans. There
    still is a guerilla faction down there who'd like to get their hands on
    a few anglos. I can think of better places to go than Puerto Rico.
    
    While I was in the Navy two sailors were killed while riding in a bus.
    In the intervenging 12 years I don't think passions have subsided that
    much. I'd be careful.

	I wasn't talking about safety in that manner....

	Would thongs or g-strings be acceptable on the beachs or at the hotels?


wd