Conference moira::naturism

    	1.  I ignore the comments, always have, unless they come from
    a person who is serious then I invite the person to join in on a
    nudist experience.  As has been mentioned by many other responders,
    after a short period the voyeuristic/sexual aspect of the experience
    goes away.  Naturism is first and formost, in my experience, a family
    affair (no pun intended).  The assumption that people are 'running
    around naked because they are sexually easy' is a stupid streotype.
    
    	2.  I have often thought about why so many more men appear to
    interested in naturism than women.  I have no answer but will give
    an opinion based on nothing more than 'gut feel.'
    
    	Men in the U.S. are much more accustomed to semi-public nudity
    - shower rooms, life in the military, etc.  while women, based on
    a discussion on a similiar topic in WOMANNOTES, are not.  Also,
    it has been my experience many more men try naturism than do women.
    They try it because of the erroneous opinions discussed in 1.
    
    	I did not notice a lack of balance between men and women nudists
    in Germany.
    
    Douglas

    Notes file evidence only shows that more men read/write notes.files
    

    These are my personal opinions and experiences here so don't take
    this as gospel OK?  And the 3 letter word (sex) is mentioned a few
    times so you may want to close your eyes if you think you may be
    offended. 
    
    1.  To me it seems that some people make a connection between nudity
        and sex, even tho there may be no connections whatsoever.  It is
    	like, "OK we're nude, so how can we not have sex?".  Some people
        just get their logic screwed up, that's all.  There is a time
        and place for sex and nudist/clothes optional functions are
        NOT the time or place (unless you and your partner are the only
        ones around and is done in privacy.  I'll admit, we "did it"
        in the bushes a few of times but there have been no wild orgies!)
    	
    2.  At the Hot Springs resort we are members of in Colorado, there
        appears to be "equal" amounts of both sexes.  I haven't got
        down to seriously counting but the numbers appear pretty even.
    	
    	When I was in high school, there was one other girl and I that
    	were the only ones that would walk to the showers nude and shower
    	in the same room.  Most of the other girls wouldn't shower!
        Pe-ewe! (or however you spell that!)  Most girls are taught
    	(at least when I was growing up) you were never supposed to
    	let anyone see you naked (god forbid!) except maybe your husband.
    	So how on earth could you let someone who you are not even intimate
    	with you see you in that condition!  And as Neil pointed out
    	to me one time, we are "baring ourselves" (pun intended) to
    	everyone and anyone who cares to read this notesfile.  How many
    	people are willing to take that chance? 
    	
    	There is also strong pressure from society if you don't have a 
        "perfect body", don't show it off.  (sic)  I don't have an "hour-
    	glass" figure but I still get out and enjoy myself.  I am somewhat
    	self conscious but slowly getting over it.  
        
    To sum this up, sorry to disappoint anyone but no orgies and what
    you see is what you get in regards to body shapes, sizes and sexes.
    I am glad to have this notesfile to share a common interest with
    others at DEC.
                  
    Judy

    RE: .0
    
    I remember reading a book, BODY LIBERATION, by Emily Coleman which
    talks about how the author dealt with nudism, both at first and
    later on in her life.  She described how she went to her doctor
    (guess what kind) who noticed that she had an good all-over tan.
    Prude that the doctor was, he got annoyed that women would go around
    parading in the nude and turning on other men.  The author replied
    by mentioning that the doctor (guess which kind) spends every day
    looking at the most private and provocative parts of a woman's body;
    did he become thoroughly excited by this?
    
    Naturally, the doctor realized what she said and didn't bother her
    about it again.
    
    The book is an excellent log of this woman's life after she became
    a nudist; it describes her initial fears and anxieties, and how
    she overcame them.  Emily Coleman, I believe, is now an instructor at 
    Elysium Fields in California.  
    
    I found the book at the Boston Public Library.
    
    Ben
    

    1.  The assumption that nudity equals sex isn't surprising.  After all,
	in most of our culture, nudity does equal sex.  There really isn't
	much you can do about it, except to let people know that it isn't
	true.  Anyone who has been to a nude beach certainly knows that
	nudity doesn't have to mean sex.
	
	The problem is in "letting people know".  Many of us are still too
	shy to tell our own friends (much less strangers) that we are 
	naturists.  It's a vicious circle:  the assumed association of
	nudity and sex attaches a stigma to nudism, which then keeps
	nudists from admitting that they are nudists, which makes it
	impossible to refute the false association.
	
	By the way, there is an alternative stereotype, which is that 
	nudists are simply weird.  This is partly due to the association
	of nudism with extremes of the physical culture and back to
	nature movements in the past (and to a lesser extent today).
	Partly, it is probably just an assumption that, since "nudity
	means sex", people who take their clothes off and don't have 
	sex *must* be weird.
	
    2.  I suspect that casual nudism is easier for men than for women.
	For a woman to go nude requires (or implies) an assertive
	statement that "This is *my* body, and I will do with it 
	as I choose."  There is certainly an element in our culture
	which regards women's bodies as being properly owned or 
	controlled by men.  
	
	Traditionally, it is men who stare at women, and women who
	suffer with being stared at.  Certainly there must be some
	men who go to nude beaches for the opportunity to stare at
	the naked women.  It must take great strength for a woman 
	to take her clothes off, knowing that those men are there,
	to say that their stares are their business, not hers.  I 
	know that *I* am uncomfortable with being stared at, and 
	(aside from my long hair and beard) I'm not fair game for 
	gawkers, the way every woman in our society is.
	
	This is no doubt at least part of the reason why contemporary
	naturism (in the US at any rate) has such a strong feminist
	element.  A woman virtually has to be a feminist to be a
	naturist.

    -Neil

    re: -.1
      
         While I don't completely disagree with what you say, I think
    the position you stated is stronger than necessary (at least the
    way it was worded.)  I am a certified massage therapist who went
    to a massage school known as "Getting in Touch" here in California.
    It also had a clothing-optional membership, of which I was a part
    for five years (until it was sold and terminated.)  Additionally,
    I first took clothes off in public about 15 years ago and have no
    problem with it (usually.)  I do not have a need for a public place
    to go to to be naked because the property I own affords me the
    opportunity to do so whenever I feel like it.  Moreover, there are
    many places to go to that one can usually safely risk disrobing
    (the beaches notwithstanding.)  The point I am trying to make in
    this paragraph is that I can afford to be "laid back" about this
    whole scenario so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed that way, and,
    I am not a stranger to naked bodies.
        I do not think nudity for men is easier than it is for women.
    Many of my male massage clients are "more shy" than the women.
    I also disagree about the staring part of your statement (which
    goes hand-in-hand with the previous sentence.)  Women as a rule
    are much more used to being looked at than men are and wear make-up,
    dress, etc. knowing fully well that they will be looked at and
    scrutinized.  While they may also look at men, they are probably
    less interested in this than the men and they are also more discreet
    in so doing when they do.  Men are no more used to being publically
    naked than women are...the diffence being the bathroom/locker room
    situations (where it is generally just the same-sex doing the 
    looking) along with the baring of the chest (which men obviously
    do much more easily than women do.)  In fact, a standing woman is
    more "covered" than a standing man (I don't think this is a very
    profound statement, do you?)  while naked.  So, putting all these
    small imbalances together I think that the overall composite 
    picture is more-or-less equal.  So, it would appear that the 
    social SETTING (not the set) is more likely to be a determining factor
    for both sexes.  
         I also mildly disagree with the issue that women who disrobe
    are feminists.  There are very, very many women who disrobe for
    the EXPLICIT purpose of being looked at who don't have the slightest
    interest in feminism.  In fact, feminism is a deterent to being
    stared at (which is what THEY desire) and they are more likely to
    be against feminism.  
         I might add that I have seen all shapes, sizes, etc. naked--
    including women with mastectomies, women with the balding desease,
    women with huge scars and stretch marks, women who weighed double
    what they "should" along with the women who have the "Playboy"
    figures.  The women who attracted the most attention usually (at
    least after the "initial exposure") are the ones who didn't "act
    natural."  Sex is in the mind...we've heard this many times but
    it needs to be repeated over and over.  Yes, it can definitely
    be moved from the mind to the body but that is where "sex" is.
    I have seen/been with beautiful women who are not necessarily
    as sexy as some of their less physically endowed sisters...the
    difference?  Their attitudes.  To me sexiness is marked by an
    attitude, not by clothes or lack thereof.  Again, the mind is
    responsible for the attitude.
         Well, anyway, so much for this man's view.  :-)
    
    
    Frederick
    

    The following are the last two paragraphs of an article titled 
    "Consent / through a woman's eyes / written for men" by Judy Beck 
    in the Winter 1987/1988 issue of _The_Event_.  It is an excellent 
    article, which I think is directly relevant to this discussion.

    	-Neil
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The danger of psychosexual intrusion escalates when a woman is nude. 
    Women take a tremendous risk by exposing their bodies to those who
    have traditionally been predators.  We take this risk idealistically,
    because we need our freedom and because we are entitled to it.  We
    want to break down phobias of the body, pioneer non-fetishistic
    nudism, and pave the way out of sexism.  Women naturists are people
    whose spiritual need for rightful bodily pleasure, autonomy, and 
    respect exceeds their fear of assault.
    
    Men can make or break the experiment.  They can support honesty and
    create a climate of safety.  They can back up women naturists with a 
    happy experience of trust or can send us back into purdah and 
    oppression.

    The article quoted in .7 has been posted in full (by someone
    else) in rec.nude.  You will find it in MOIRA::REC_NUDE, note
    406.  (Press KP7 or SELECT to add it to your notebook).
    
	-Neil

    
    re .0
    
    1) I ignore them
    
    2) My experience in Britain has been that there are more women than
    men engaged in actvities - at least in clubs. This is largely because
    all the clubs I have ever seen ban single (ie unaccompanied) adult
    males, but allow single adult females to be members...
                    
    /. Ian .\
    

RE: .9
    
>   2) My experience in Britain has been that there are more women than
>   men engaged in actvities - at least in clubs. This is largely because
>   all the clubs I have ever seen ban single (ie unaccompanied) adult
>   males, but allow single adult females to be members...

My subjective impression at our CO nudist beach, is that there are 
significantly more men than women.  My own experience of organised naturism in 
the UK also differs widely from .9.

RE: .0

It occured to me to consider how people get to hear about naturism in the 
first place.  There are of course more and more families whose children grow 
up in a naturist environment, but it is the external recruitment which I am 
considering.

I have an older brother, no sisters, no cousins.  My parents are ultra prudish 
so I never saw my mother even partially naked.  I went to single sex school 
from age 11 onwards, before sex education was invented, and belonged to single
sex youth organisations.  We didn't even have any young female neighbours with
whom I could associate.  It therefore came as quite a surprise when I
overheard a conversation before choir practice which suggested that female
genitalia where different to mine, and that this difference was significant to
something called sex.  This stimulated a period of investigation on my part
which led me via biology text books to soft porn magazines, and from there by
accident to a naturist magazine.  Unlike most of my classmates I read the
words in the magazine as well as looking at the pictures, and that is how I
discovered naturism.  Many of my classmates actually refused to believe that 
"nudist colonies" even existed, and those that did assumed them to be some 
kind of playboy club.  Most men I have ever discussed this with 'came in' via
accidentally reading a naturist magazine instead of a soft porn one. 

It occurs to me that very few if any young women will ever purchase a soft 
porn magazine, and therefore the chances of any accidentally purchasing a 
naturist magazine must be very low indeed.  Unless they happen to know a man 
who is a naturist, how do women find out about naturism?  OK nowadays there 
are CO beaches, and the knowledge that naturism exists is in the public
domain, but that is a very recent development.  I think the reason why there 
has historically been an imbalance in recruitment was that women just didn't 
get to hear the good news.