Conference misery::feline

    Indoor means *never* goes out at all, for any amount of time.  
    
    I have two 10 yr olds in a 3 bedroom house, they have the run
    of the house and the windows are open (for those of you in the
    UK, we have screens on our windows here in the US) when I am home 
    so they get fresh air and the smells/noises of the outdoors.
    
    But, I will not subject them to (who put that great list in here
    recently?) speeding cars, other animals - wild or otherwise, disease,
    injury, unscrupulous humans, etc.  Because they are kept indoors their
    average life span is extended 2 or 3 fold I believe, and I do believe
    that the benefits *far* outway any deprivation that some might feel they
    endure by being in. 
    
    Max and Daisy are 2 happy *healthy* cats as a result and will be with
    me that much longer because they are indoors.
    
    Sue

    I have an indoor only cat, too. Mickey is a pure bred Persian,
    3 years old. He has *never* been out of the house (except for an annual
    vet visit.)  He does sit at a window and watch birds, trees, bugs,
    etc. But he does not rush out if a door is open for a moment.
    Even if the door is open for a couple of minutes to unload
    groceries, etc he will walk by, look out, and continue on
    his indoor rounds.
    
      This is because of reasons given by .1, plus being from a line
    of show cats. NONE of them has been outside, so his system
    can't fight off even the simplest ailment, since his immune
    system hasn't built up any immunity to them. Finally, being a
    pure-bred, we're afraid he may be kidnapped.

    As a follow-up to my .1 entry, my two are just "mutts" and did
    go outside the first 18 mos of their lives, when we lived in an
    area that saw no traffic.  Once we moved, I decided not to take
    the chance of them getting hit, and now have been "converted"
    because of all the additional reasons that I listed.
    
    Mine knew the outdoors, and like .2's kitty, are not the least bit 
    interested in trying to get out when the door is opened.  They're 
    content with the "world" they are used to.
    
    Sue

    Well, my cats are indoor mostly?   What I mean by that is that they 
    are indoor all the time, except for the occasional jaunt outside on a
    leash and harness with me by their side.  The do love the outdoors. 
    They mostly just sit there in the grass and bird watch.  I would
    *never* let them outside unharnessed and without me.  No taking chances
    with dogs, cars, cat fights, etc.!
    
    - Lauri
    

    
    Liz,
    
    	From what I've read, some breeds like Persians prefer the indoors
    while some breeds like Abysinians (built muscularly like the big cats) 
    are happier outdoors unless one has a huge house.
    
    	I believe people have different preferences in life. Some like
    it mellow and some like it extreme. Some like it safe and some like
    the adrenalin rush. Some live right in the middle and some live on the 
    edge. Some cannot handle the emotional taxation (or the vet bill) when 
    their kitty gets hurt and some think that scratches and bruises are a 
    normal part of life. 
    
    	People also live in a wide variety of locations, some locations
    are terrible for outdoor kitties and some locations are ideal for
    kitties to roam around. One's got to do what one's got to do!
     	
    
    
    Eva

    I also have an indoor kitty, who only goes outside when he sneaks out
    every once in a while (not very often.  I really believe he thinks it's 
    a game, because he lets me get right up to him, then he runs like
    crazy.  The last time he got out, I just didn't bother to chase him and
    about 20 minutes later I looked out the back door and there he was.  I
    opened the door and he came right in, however, he was meowing and
    telling me in no uncertain terms that I didn't play the game the way I
    should.  Since then, he doesn't seem to have much interest in going
    out.
    
    The reason I decided to keep him inside (my previous cats were all
    indoor/outdoor) was because I live on a street, while not too busy,
    seems to be a speedway to the cars that do use it.  Also, being in the
    burbs, there are a lot of racoons, etc. around that tend to be a
    hazard.
    
    Tigger seems perfectly happy watching the wildlife from our screened in
    front porch.  As previously said, I think being kept inside will
    significantly prolong his life.
    
    Marilyn  

I can't speak for others, but my reason has to do with the fact that, as an
apartment dweller, I can't let my cats out due to leasing contracts.

    Well, thank you for the replies, and so quickly.
    
    This is obviously something you people feel quite passionately about. 
    Without trying to start a full scale riot or cause friction, can I put
    my point of view over?
    
    To be honest I am absolutely horrified at the thought of keeping a cat
    permanently indoors (unless it's for showing (the lack of immunity) or
    for medical reasons).  Cats are naturally outdoor animals, they are
    extremely independent and will get up and go where they want when they
    want.  I know first hand that a cat which has been kept indoors for
    most of its life will be terrified at the prospect of going out, hence
    them not attempting to escape when a door is left open.  I have just
    collected two very large cats from the Cats Protection League to be used
    as stable cats to keep the mice and rats down.  These cats were kept
    together in a flat and never allowed to go outside, and especially as
    they are so enormous I find this quite distressing.  Initially they
    were *very* nervous of going outside the stable door but now they love
    it and will bask in teh sun and roll in the dust, generally doing what
    cats do.
    
    As for fear of preditors, surely that's very much interferring with
    nature.  Cats *will* fight, other cats, dogs and foxes, it's in their
    nature to be territorial, I'm afraid that's one aspect of having a cat. 
    They do come in battered and bruised but they've been doing what nature
    intended.
    
    Where I live, if the road is too busy in the area then tough, you don't
    have a cat.  If you're that desperate to own one then you go ahead with
    a lap cat (Persians etc).  Our cat has his annual vaccinations, has
    been in numerous fights, has parts of his ears missing from scrapping
    and has been hit by a couple of cars in the past (and that was in a
    *quite* area).  He's 17 and I would say since we've had him from 3
    years old (he was ill-treated before that) he has had a wonderful life. 
    I don't think I could cope with coming home to a cat each night that
    was shut in all day.  I really don't think the size of a house is any
    comparison to the size of the world outdoors.
    
    Our cat will sit outside the house at certain times and wait for us (he
    has a good body clock) to come home from work.  He has a cat flap and
    can come and go as he pleases.
    
    (Sigh)  Now I've got that off my chest I feel a little better.  As I
    said, this is not to cause a riot, just to ask your reasoning.
    
    Rgds
    
    Liz
    can come and go as he pleases
    curious beyond belief

re .8:

It's not so easy as saying that if you can't let them out, you don't have a
cat.  What if you already have a cat when you move somewhere where you can't
let the cat out?  In that case, you're screwed.  You might say not to get
such a place, but that's just ignoring reality for some of us.

    
    I have never had an outdoor cat that lived to be more than four or five
    years old.  I have never had an indoor cat that seemed the least bit
    upset about being "confined" indoors.  There are very few places left
    in the world that bear any resemblance to the outdoor environment that
    the small cats evolved in.  One could argue that the contemporary urban
    environment is a very nasty trick to play on cats, as it's full of
    threats (the automobile foremost among them) that many cats simply can't
    cope with.  I find the suggestion that if I can't "safely" let my cats
    outside I shouldn't have them simply preposterous.
    
    len.
     

    I think that would make matters worse in that a cat has gone outside
    all of it's life and is then suddenly subjected to becoming a house cat
    over night.  I would say that scenario is much worse than one *never*
    going outside.
    
    Liz

    
    re .11 - agreed; cats that have lived outdoors will very clearly
    protest being kept indoors.  But cats that have been raised indoors
    (as have all of mine for the past twenty years) and never gone outside
    don't seem to mind at all.
    
    My SO once thought it would be "fun" to take the cats outside.  They were
    quite literally terrified by the experience.  One of them was so upset
    she threw up, and they all bolted from our arms and ran panicked for
    cover.  Yes, after repeated exposures they'd probably get used to it, and
    perhaps eventually prefer it, but the "benefits" do not seem worth the
    risks, and the stress of getting them "used to" the outdoors.
    
    len.
    

    re. 12
    
    Do you not feel that it goes against the very nature of a cat to be
    kept indoors?
    
    Liz

    
    
    An previously indoor only cat has to be trained like a new kitten
    to safely go outside, IMO. The cat has to be taught to "respect"
    cars, dogs, etc, as well as survival skills like climbing trees
    and fighting, if these skills were not encouraged in kittenhood.
    
    
    Eva
    

    I agree that cats are curious, independent, etc. but that can also be
    said for the average toddler.  Whether it is wrong or not, I consider
    (and from reading the notes file think others feel the same way) my
    cats as part of my family.  I don't let them out because I don't want
    to have a cat with pieces missing, who's been hit by cars, who's in 
    danger of being killed or tortured by sick people.  Obviously, to me,
    a person who has a cat who has been hit by a car more than once and 
    doesn't seem to let it bother them sees their cat in a totally
    different light than I do.  We protect our children by teaching them
    to cross streets safely, not talk to strangers, reason out decisions
    and as they get older they learn.  You cannot apply the same training 
    to a cat.  Therefore, YOU protect THEM by confining them.
    
    I will have the (perhaps smug) satisfaction in knowing that if I've
    lost a cat, it was to illness or old age.  I'll also never have to say
    to anyone "I don't know what happened to the cat, it just disappeared
    one day".
    
    Linda

    
    Hmmmmm.  Indoor versus outdoor.  This borders on a religious
    discussion. 
    
    I had three cats until a month ago when Mikey escaped from the house
    and was killed and eaten (mostly) by a coyote.  
    
    Losing a beloved pet because of outside predators is devastating.  And
    as far as Mikey is concerned, sure, maybe I shouldn't have 'owned' him
    if I had to keep him inside.  But he was one of 5 cats dumped at our church 
    over a year ago because someone didn't want them.  I was able to adopt out 
    the rest (to indoor homes).  And Mikey stayed with me.  
    
    So what the previous noter was saying, it would have been better to
    have gone ahead and had these cats destroyed when we found them rather 
    than to have kept them inside?
    
    Before you start judging folks on how they maintain their pets, you 
    might consider that not all of us live under the same circumstances as
    you do:
    I happen to live out in the 'wild, wild west' where cats (and smallish
    dogs) do not survive for long outside.  Even the local rabbit
    population takes shelter under my shed to protect themselves from 
    predators.  I know neighborhoods only a few miles away where people 
    can't leave their pets outside because of mountain lions and bears.
    A friend of mine had a bear drag off her rabbit hutch (with the 
    rabbits inside).  Fortunately she was able to scare him off before he
    ate them.  We had a jogger killed and partially eaten by a lion 
    2 years ago.  Last year a bear broke into a cabin and killed the man
    inside.  Oh yes, I also live in an area where people can legally 
    carry guns and shoot pets if they stray on to someones property and
    are perceived to bother livestock.
    
    Sarah, my Siamese who is now 15 years and mostly blind, goes out only 
    when she makes an escape.  The only reason she has made it to 15 years 
    is because she is a mostly indoor cat (due to the myriad of predators 
    out where I live--coyotes, foxes, owls, hawks, neighborhood dogs...)  
    And Joe (bluepoint Snowshoe) stays in most of the time for the same 
    reasons.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    I'm sorry that you feel that way - I'm glad I can sleep at night
    knowing my cat is doing exactly what a cat should do, be outside
    exploring.  The cat in our house gets the best treatment it possibly
    could, is spoilt rotten and given so much love it's unbelievable. 
    Believe me, I do feel exactly the same way about my cat as you do - and
    I feel I am showing him that in letting him come and go as he pleases. 
    If you had a dog would you confine it to indoors only and never let it
    go out?  No way!  Cats do need exercise too.  I think they're regarded
    by many people as decorative items to put around the house.  What's
    happened to the natural instinct of catching mice and birds - forget it
    if the cats kept inside.
    
    Cats are a far cry from toddlers, they are far too independent to be
    reared in the same way as you would a toddler, I find that a ridiculous
    comparison.  I feel the same way about keeping a cat indoors as I do
    about birds in cages, it's not the way they were created to survive.
    
    Rgds
    
    Liz

    
    I have to disagree that cats cannot be taught to be careful with
    cars. 
    
    	This one incident got me pondering...  
    A couple months ago, we started to let our new kitten outside.
    At the beginning the kitten thought the cars are things to chase after.
    We were out there on the street with her all that time (we live in a
    quiet neighborhood, with woods in the back). One of our older siamese 
    (not related at all to the kitten) was literally babysitting the kitten 
    outside. When the siamese heard a car coming, he would chase the kitten 
    off the road. He did that a few times and it was obvious to me that he 
    did that on purpose. From that point on, when the kitten hears a car, she 
    gets off the road immediately. Of course, we also made a lot of nasty noises
    with our cars to make the new kitty a car-hater.
    
    	I think cats a lot smarter than we give them credit.
    
    
    Eva                                                                  
    

    
    I keep my cat indoors as well.  Since I've had him (as a kitten) I've
    moved 4 times and the first 2 places were on the 3rd and 2nd floors on
    busy streets so there was no way I'd let him out only to get hit by a
    car.  The next place had a small yard but was also at a very busy
    intersection so again, inside.  He got out once and that was to fly by
    me and chase a groundhog almost to it's hole!!  Luckily the terror in my
    voice must have shocked him because he stopped in his tracks and I
    grabbed him. But I'm sure he would have followed that thing into it's
    hole and been killed. He's a big cat (16+ lbs) but this thing was bigger!
    
    Where I am now, I could possibly let him out, but he's now 7 years old
    and doesn't know the hazards of outside.  I know he could handle
    himself with dogs and other cats, but not cars, wild animals or certain
    humans.  But he's not afraid of the outdoors either.  If I leave the door
    open for even a second he's there in the doorway lookout out.
    Occasionally he'll walk out onto the porch or driveway and start poking
    around meowing loudly.  We let him explore a bit and then bring him back
    in.
    
    I don't think he's being deprived.  He sits on our screen porch most of
    the day during the spring,summer and fall and enjoys the 'outside' air. 
    Come winter though, forget it, he's on the bed or curled up in a chair.
    He stepped in snow once and immediately hated it. ;)
     
    He's spoiled rotten by both my husband and me and he loves the attention
    - when he wants it.  He pretty much runs the household and he knows it
    and I think he's very happy.
    
    JMHO  :)
    
    Karen & Hercules (appropriately named - believe me)
    

    
    Liz,
    
    	>What's happened to the natural instinct of catching mice and birds -
    	>forget it if the cats kept inside.
    
    	There is nature and there is nuture. In the nature, mama cat would
    have taught kitty cats all the tricks to survive. In the domesticated
    world, mama cat may not know how herself, or kitty cat is taken away 
    before the tricks are learnt.
    
    	IMO, it is not no work to train a kitty, say 8 weeks old, to become
    a smart outdoor cat. One has to keep the fighting/hunting game going
    with the kitty. One has to let the kitty keep climbing, set up obstacle
    course indoors. One has to teach a kitty about cars. One has to spend
    at least one month to gradually introduce kitty outdoors, like keeping
    kitty in sight, making sure kitty knows where home/pet door is,
    teaching kitty to recognize a come-home-right-now call, etc. Kitty will
    need all the shots, neutered, regular vet checkups, daily examination for cuts
    and bruises and pests, regular baths and flea dips, tape worm medicines, 
    collars and tags for ID, etc, to stay healthy and sound. Not to mention
    the hunted animal remains that one has to clean up after kitty. It is much more 
    owrk than keeping them inside. I believe in letting cats come and go as they 
    want, that's why I have a pet door, but I also believe in owner
    responsiblity also. It is much better off for a kitty to stay indoors than 
    for a kitty to be unprepared for the outdoors.
    
    	
    Eva
    	

    Ok, now for my opinion...
    
    I have an indoor/outdoor cat. I think he is a very happy, well
    adjusted, spoiled cat.   He goes outside during the day I for
    the most part is inside before I go to sleep. Sometimes he comes
    in at lunchtime if I go home, sometimes at 6ish when I get home,
    or sometimes as late as midnight.  outside he is very independent
    and will not go near people. He stays off the road and he he
    spends most of his time in the farm behind my house. Yes we have
    had "broken" tails and other tiny mishaps. When he is indoors though,
    he is Mr. purrbox and affection. He sleeps with me every night!
    Wakes me up every morning to go out.  I think he is a very happy
    cat.  I will keep him in with bad weather.  That would make a d
    difference.  here in Atlanta, it never gets REAL cold, and believe
    it or not, the NEw England summers can be hotter!
    
    Now for the big BUT.... If I got another kitty, I am thinking that
    it would be indoor only. It took a lot of late night worrying and
    training to feel comfortable with the indoor/outdoor situation. I had
    tried at one or two points to keep him indoors, but impossible--loves
    it too much. The dog in the house has changed things some. When he
    is inside he is up in my bedroom and not near a door so much meowing
    to go out.  At the same time, going out is his way to get away from
    the barking pain-in-the-xxx.  Going away is a pain, since the 
    neighbors who watch him (or my roommate now) have to worry about
    getting him in as well.  Not just coming over and feeding him.  I try
    not to worry when I am gone.  An indoor only kitty is easier for
    those vacations.(unless the outdoor cat is a barn type cat that
    is outdoors almost all the time on a farm).

    I have 8 animals in my house - 5 cats and 3 ferrets (not
    to mention a few fish tanks).  No one goes outside.   One
    of the cats is a 23 lb orange tabby who used to be an
    outdoor cat.  The other 4 are purebreds who have never
    been outside and have no inclination to go.  All of these
    animals have homes with me because they were not readily
    placeable.  One has one eye.  Two have bad eyes and one has
    sinusitus (hint: kitties don't use kleenex).  Keeping them 
    vaccinated, fed and housed in the luxury to which they would 
    like to become accustomed is expensive.  I cannot add surgical 
    procedures from encountered with cars, antifreeze, sick people 
    and animals to an already expensive load.  I cannot add pesticide 
    treatments for fleas, ticks and mites to my monthly household expenses.  
    I'm sure Red would like to go outside once in a while.  I have 
    a large screen porch which is open to them when we are home, 
    and they use it often.  Last winter I had a field mouse population 
    which evidently provided many happy hours while I was
    at work... :-)  They get exercise, grooming and attention from
    me every day.  They have a variety of toys and we use them to
    help keep the cats in shape.  My cats live with me, sleep with
    me in bed and get patted, scritched and brushed by me daily.
    They know I care for them, and the purrs, head butts and 
    lap naps are the evidence I see that my cats think me and
    the life they live is ok.  
    
    I honestly can't see how a cat that lives in a barn exposed
    to the elements living off what it can catch knows you
    care for it, if you never pay it any mind.  
    
    But that's just my opinion.
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    I think we all agree that we disagree on this one.  That does
    not make one side wrong or "bad parents".  Each of us can find
    reasons to justify our position, and will most likely not be 
    "converted" by the opposing viewpoint. 
    
    We do what we do out of love for our kitties.
    
    So, this is where I personally start hitting "next unseen"...
    
    Sue

    I guess being kept indoors is against their nature.  But, we've
    intruded into the wild cat's habitat with our houses, cars, pesticides,
    etc.  I guess if we ruin their natural home, we need to take the
    responsibility to give them another home.  A better home? Maybe, for
    some cats it's a much better home.  I have two former strays.  Neither
    one cares one whit about going outside anymore.  The door stands open
    several times a day for several minutes at a time while my dogs come
    and go.  Neither of them ventures out.  They sit in the windows
    occassionally, but mostly you find them in the linen closet, under the
    bed, under the tub, nice dark hidey-holes where nobody can get to them.
    They seem content, as much as I can tell anything from their
    expressions : )  
    Sarah

    I am usually a "read only" feline noter but I had to add my $.02 here. 
    I currently have 3 indoor only cats with one exception.  Every summer
    we spend time on a 2-acre private island in Little Lake Sebago, Maine
    and the cats have always come with us (we are on about batch 3 to go
    there).  We get to the island by private boat -- there is nothing there
    but beach, trees and cottages.  The cats have a ball and come back home
    to being indoors without any problems.
    
    Of our current group, one came from a pet store as a kitten, one was a
    stray which we adopted from a local dog officer when he was about 4
    years old and the third is a stray part Maine Coon who adopted us when she
    was less than a year.  She had been living in and out of our barn. 
    They all watch the goings on of nature from the windows like humans
    watch TV and are happy/healthy cats.
    
    We have also had two other cats who went from strays (outdoors) to our
    house as indoor cats only (except for vacation) and both lived long
    lives -- one to age 18 and the other to age 21.
    
    I'd say being indoors only works.
    
    Sandy 

    I adopted three cats from the Humane Society some two years ago. 
    They're indoor/outdoor.  In September, when they were about 4 months
    old and had gotten accustomed to the house, I decided to expose them to
    the outdoors.  I didn't have any expectations about how much time they
    would spend outside, but I believed that they should at least know how
    to handle it.  (When I was house-hunting, I ruled out a house on the
    corner of 111A because of the traffic.  My street doesn't get any thru
    traffic, just the residents.)
    
    I decided to go out the side door, since it was away from the street
    and close to the backyard.  When I opened the door, I heard meowing. 
    "Great," I thought.  "Their first time out, they get traumatized by a
    confrontation with a neighbor's cat."  I keep looking around my car,
    trying to find it, when I realized it was coming _from_ my car.  When I
    opened up the hood, I found a little black cat.  _My_ little black cat. 
    Thea had snuck out when I took the garbage out, panicked, and crawled
    inside my car to hide.  Exactly the sort of thing you don't want a cat
    to do.  I removed her and carried her 10 feet to the backyard.  Zip! 
    Back into the car.  Meanwhile the other two are not the least
    interested in exploring, clearly overwhelmed by the big open space.
    
    After removing Thea from the engine a third time, I almost gave up in 
    disgust, but I gave it one last shot, taking them out the front door.  
    The front of the house is lined with big flowering bushes behind a row 
    of hosta.  This gave the cats plenty of places to hide, which they
    promptly used.  Much better.
    
    Throughout the fall, I took (not let) the cats outside for half an hour
    or so, pretty much every day.  When the snow came, I let them explore
    it but they quickly concluded that it wasn't fun.  So they stayed in
    most of the winter.  When spring rolled around, I started taking them
    out, then letting them out.  The rules are that they only go out during
    the daylight, when I'm going to be home.  (No letting them out and then
    driving off to visit Grandma in Worcester for three hours.)  We've
    reached the point where they get cranky if they don't get out.  Zoe
    chases her sisters around the house and, if really annoyed, shreds the
    toilet paper.  Valentina stands by the closed door and yells.  I
    haven't noticed Thea acting up, but she's a peaceable creature.
    
    None of this guarantees their safety, of course, but I hope I've at
    least reduced some of the risks.

  Well -- this thread was a surprise.  I thought we'd just finished beating 
this topic to death a couple of weeks ago.  The indoor/outdoor contingents
will never agree, and I suspect the base noter only posted the original 
question to get an opportunity on the soapbox.

  Why do we keep our cats indoors (and, yes, indoors means 24hrs/day, 
7days/wk for all five)?

Kitty road-kill on our way to work today.

A poisoned kitty who was rushed to the vet last week while Tatoo was having
her regularly scheduled check up.

Having to put down a mother cat and her four kittens last year because of
FeLV.  The vaccine is only about 80% effective.

Gawdawful noises in the middle of the night by the kitties in our neighborhood
that do run free (disturbing the peace, I believe it's called - just like 
barking dogs).

I don't believe in always letting kitties (or kiddies, or dogs) do the 
"natural" thing.  It's "natural" to breed like bunnies, not be immunized, etc
etc etc, but it ain't healthy.  We have become civilized (sort of) and no
longer hunt our meals and shred them with those canine teeth we were born 
with.  As some animals have chosen to become domesticated along with us, what
was once "natural" just isn't relevant.

My 2 pennies - one more time.

			SQ

Both our cat were abandoned at the vets. The declawed (came that way) cat lives
indoors. The clawed cat is in/out but prefers out; he often drops in for meals
and to watch rainstorms in the summer, and hangs out inside during the cold
months. Both seem happy with their state of affairs. Mr. Inside waits just
inside the front door as his litter-pan-mate and dog-buddies come and go from
the house. He's never made a run for the great outdoors.

On the other hand, this string reminds me visting an agricultural research
center somewhere when I was very young. They were experimenting with feeding
cows a diet that included a large amount of sawdust - a nice, cheap "food."
Somebody asked if the cows liked eating it and the answer was that well, they'd
never been fed anything else, so they seemed pretty content with what they had.

Trace_who_worked_late_last_night_on_a_hit_by_car_kitty_with_a_squished_head

    The world is not so easy as one thinks.  :)
    
    As for I live in a big city downtown there is absolutely no choice to
    let my cat out, it would be killed by cars, pitbulls or humans within
    24 hours. (Please do not argue anyone, noone knows here, I do; what I
    wrote is fact. Period. I walk around with a gun after dark. Sigh.
    
    My cousine lives in a small village and has two absolute outdoor cats
    (who are allowed to come and go in and out as they wish) and there is
    absolutely no choice to keep them indoors only. Period.
    
    I think each case is individual. Period.
    
    And one is very wrong to put notes in a file which end with period.
    Period.
    
    :) Nat
    
    PS I have heard that a neutered female's socalled primary territory is
    about 600 square feet only if there is a greater cat population around,
    and cats treat their humans as co-cats. So the population is great
    enough to keep her dominating her 600 square feet, which is about the
    size of my appartment. So she is outdoor indoors, and definitely alpha
    cat in the household.
                         

    OK I've kept quiet on this one long enough!!  I maintain a strong
    opinion that cats are safer INSIDE, and therefore should be kept there! 
    Growing up in an urban city environment our cats were stricly indoor,
    of course one was a pure white persian manx(sp?), and the dog was tied
    on a chain in the backyard.
    
    Currently I have three, and have had other cats before.  As discussed
    in other notes two of my current ones are former strays.  Of my brood,
    present and former, Barney my (now neutered) male siamese is my only
    one who is truly indoor/outdoor.  He just will not adjust to being kept
    inside, but basically will just go out for a little while to do his
    "business" and explore the immediate are, mostly woods, and to torment
    the dog up the road who is on a lead in his back yard!  My Fluffy is a
    former stray who now is strictly indoors, he will cry at the back door,
    but should he happen to get out he runs under the deck furniture and
    screams in panic until I go and "rescue" him and bring him back in.
    My third is Bandit, he is a half siamese declawed neutered male who I
    can honestly say is afraid of outdoors, has never been out.  My other
    cat I put down a year and a half ago, was a grey tortise lived 15 years
    indoors, and I believe she lived well and a good long life, as will the
    rest of my brood because they don't go outside to deal with the
    elements, road and environmental hazards.
    
    Let me throw another twist on this, mods consider this part as a
    separate note...
    
    Our town (Oxford MA) instituted Licensing of CATs this past spring. 
    The cats are registered at the town hall just like dogs, receive tags
    which are *supposed* to be worn, but the majority of people like me
    don't bother, and the fee for licensing is the same scale as dogs, i.e.
    neutered or spayed is $6.  and a higher rate for unneutered or
    unspayed, can't remember but $9. seems to sound right.  
    
    There has been a real protest in town, the animal control officer is
    taking a strong stand.  I had to pay a fee because I was late, had
    forgotten the law was in effect.  They say it is to get a real count of
    how many cats are in town, to keep disease under control.  Any
    unlicensed cat is picked up is immediately destroyed.  In reality
    though the woman who is dog officer (not the man incharge of the
    department) is kind and will seek out an owner before taking radical
    actions.
    
    There have been several attempts to repeal the law, some have seen it
    as a money making operation.  It was upheld at town meeting last month
    but only by a margin of a half dozen votes, and an hour+ of discussion! 
    There is currently a petition drive on to have it on the fall ballot. 
    I tend to agree with those repealing it.  I had to pay for my three
    guys, because if Fluffs ever got out he would be picked up and
    destroyed according to the rules.
    
    Just had to add my opinion to this, does any other towns regulate cats?
    
    Lyn

    Re: .30
    
    >Just had to add my opinion to this, does any other towns regulate cats?
    
    SHOW KEY/FULL *LEGISLATION* brings up the following notes on
    legislation that could affect cats. 
    
    		65.0, 266.0, 524.0, 563.0
    
    
    Jan
                                  

    I have two cats, Floyd goes outside and Elsa doesn't.  The reason Elsa
    does not go outside is because she doesn't want to and never has.
    
    We are very lucky in the UK in that we don't have any wild animals to
    attack our cats, there is no rabies and less likelyhood of infection
    of other diseases.  I have been lucky in that my cats have had good
    road sense and I had one cat who lived happily out of doors for sixteen
    years before she died of natural causes.  
    
    When I started reading this conference I was shocked at how many people
    had indoor only cats but I have become used to it and realise that
    America is very different from Scotland.  If I had to then I would
    rather have indoor cats than not have any at all.
    
    Different circumstances necessitate different behaviour.
    
    Kirsty                                             

    Kirsty,
    
    Do you no get foxes or dogs go after your cats over there?
    Do you have FELV?
    
    Sue

    I grew up with cats that were indoor/outdoor.  When I moved into my
    own place and was "adopted" by two strays I had to keep them inside
    since they were both very sickly.
    
    Now that I live in a quieter location I have decided to keep the cats
    indoors for a variety of reasons; they are not streetwise, the danger
    imposed by humans (cars, sick people - see note 910), and disease.  Both 
    of my cats have been raised in an indoor only environment and seem content 
    with their lifestyle.  (Both cats are "deck trained" and spend quite a
    bit of time outside whenever we are doing yard work or out sitting
    around.  Their toy box is also larger than my nephews and they receive
    *constant* attention when we're around)
    
    My cats now (and any cats that decide to own me in the future) will 
    always be indoor cats.  It's a personal decision and while I feel it's
    the right one and would encourage others to do the same, I also have to
    accept that it may not be the right decision for others.
    
    [FWIW, my parents now have indoor only cats.  After losing 2 to cars,
     the neighbor "disposing" of one, 3 to FELV, and 2 to old age they 
     decided that their current cats will be indoor only.] 
    
    Sharon
    
    

My cats always used to be indoor/outdoor cats.  Now they are indoor only.
Why?  Two very loved cats were killed by cars, one cat was attacked by two
German Shephards, natural or not I wish I had kept her indoors and prevented
this from happening.  This same cat, Sabrina got liver poisoning while outside
and almost died from that.  Buki was attacked by other cats and when he finally
came home had a raging infection and was very sick.  Gypsy, a feral, can never
go out because he'll never come back if he does.  I was feeding his family 
outdoors, none come around anymore.  The last time I saw him mother, her ears
were shredded.  I feel they must all be dead now.

None of my cats scream to go out.  When they did go out, they were constantly
howling to go out, and just as soon scratching to come back in.  Now they're
content to sit in open windows or on the screened in porch.  They're clean,
they don't get ticks and fleas, they're not exposed to all kinds of diseases
and poisons.  I'll never have another cat that goes out.

Laura

    just a question....

    all of my cats (4) are indoor and I wouldn't have it any other way....

    however, at present, I don't have them in windows or at screens for two
    reasons - (1) the air conditioners are on (they help my allergies 
    tremendously at this time of year) and (2) when the windows have been 
    open (spring, fall), I've almost lost 2 falling out when they pushed
    on/against the screens.

    so my question is, for those of you with screend windows, do you do
    anything special to keep the kitties from pushing the screens out ?
    Should I be nailing/tacking them in from the outside (If so, any
    one want to volunteer to do the top floor ?  Too high on a ladder
    for this lady !!!!!!) ??  Other ideas ?

    My motto on the question - better safe than sorry - they don't seem to
    MIND staying in - just the big ones like to curl inside the window ledge
    and it's too much !!!!

    Debbi
 

    Re .33
    
    We do have foxes however not many and they do not tend to attack cats
    as they would come off worse due to the cat using its claws.  Alot of
    the foxes we have are urban foxes, the most they do is scavange in
    rubbish bins so they do not tend to be a problem.
    
    Dogs are not allowed to wander around, they must be kept on a leash by
    their owner.  Any dogs found out alone are lifted by the dog warden so
    stray dogs are not a problem.
    
    FELV is a growing problem in Scotland however not nearly as bad as you
    have it in the States.  
    
    Kirsty

    Re .33
    
    I live at the opposite end of the UK to the previous noter.  We too
    have foxes in our area (I live on the edge of the town/country).  I
    quite often see "our" fox when I come home late, he lives at the side
    of our house in some wasteland.  Again, there are very, very rarely
    stray dogs on the streets, it's just not allowed here.  We also have
    badgers here but they don't pose a problem at all.
    
    The two cats I now have at the stable seem to be leading a wonderful
    life - they were indoor cats until a couple of weeks ago.  When I go
    there at feeding time they're likely to be out and about "hunting"
    rather than sitting inside waiting for me.  Buddy thought it was
    wonderful to roll in the dirt last week, something he probably has
    never done before.  Luckily there is little traffic as it's a very quiet
    lane, I probably couldn't count the number of foxes in the area, we
    have a badger set and also a family of deer living in the woods.  The
    two cats are *so* large I don't think a fox would even attempt to
    attack either of them.
    
    Also, from the sounds of it you have people in the States who aren't
    too animal friendly.  Something which we don't have quite as much of.
    
    Liz

    Deb, I keep the windows down in my double-hung windows so that only an
    inch or two of screen is available, at the bottom.  I don't think any
    of my kitties could fall thru that even if the screen came off (cats
    can get thru amazingly small areas though, so I keep the available
    screened area about half the size I think the smallest cat could fit
    thru.  Some windows aren't double-hung, but open like French doors;  I
    never leave these open when I'm away from the house, and I test the
    screens periodically for tightness, like every few days.
    

    
    I have 4 outdoor cats.  In the summer they are 4 outside 24hrs a day
    cats.  They are all between 10 and 13 years old.  and they are all
    mutts (cept for Chammie who looks like a lynx point)  They wont even
    come inside to eat dinner when it's nice out.
    
    I love cats more then anything and I could never keep any of my
    animals in the house (unless they wanted to be in).  I dont have
    any problem with anyone who wants there cats inside - you all know
    what is best for you and your cats.
    
    But there are alot more cat show people in this file now adays, and
    cat show people (most of them) all keep there cats inside.. like I
    said that's great for you.
    
    What I have trouble with in this file, is when one of us cat lovers,
    who happens to mention in a note that our cat is an outdoor cat - it
    seem that the cat show people allways have to add with there much
    appreciated advice (keep your cat in - and you would'nt of had this
    problem)
    
    okay - they say it alot nicer then that -- but that is how it comes
    accross.  I respect your choice to have your cat in - please 
    respect our choice to have our cats out -- and when one of us ask
    for advice - we really want it and respect it - but please dont
    put us down or snidley remark about our cats being OUT.
    
    we allready know our cat would of not gotten eaten, run over, etc
    if he/she was in - we dont need to hear that - we know it.  But
    everyone and every cat is differant - we all just need to respect
    one another and our choices and offer advice and support when
    needed.  The world is full enough of snide remarks.
    
    ** ps this is not ment to offend anyone, I don't mean to point
    fingers at show people - you all are great - it was just an
    analogy **
    
    Louisa

    
    re: .40
    
    > But there are alot more cat show people in this file now adays
    
      I think that you will find that it is quite to the contrary.  The
      "cat show people" population has dwindled considerably in the last 
      year or two.
    
    > we allready know our cat would of not gotten eaten, run over, etc if
      he/she was in
    
      Then don't whine about it when it happens
    
    > we all just need to respect one another and our choices and offer
      and support when needed.  The world is full enough of snide remarks
    
      Then don't make them.
    
    
    

I come down on the side of quality.  The only reason my cats are inside these
days is because I'm not able to let them out.  They've got their shots and
their eartags already.

Re .41
How dare you accuse .40 of "whining"??  I had the impression that this Notes
file was intended to help and advise.  Telling someone in pain to "stick it"
is hardly helpful.  The response expected from you in such a situation, if
you -must- respond, is "I'm sorry." or something similar.  This is a really
good example of a time to excercise your option to be silent if you have
nothing good to say.

    
    I know how Lou feels.  I'm 99.9% read-only in this file because I feel that 
    some of those who own pedigrees and/or who breed and/or who show their 
    cats just don't want my input being that I'm "just" the owner of three DSH 
    cats rescued from barns and adopted from shelters.
    
    Just my opinion.  I enjoy this file.

    Folks, let's punt this discussion.  Indoor-outdoor is a no-win
    discussion, just like abortion or politics.  Except for
    running the pros and cons by a new cat owner, it doesn't seem
    to me to serve any purpose except to cause discension(sp?).
    
    signed,
    
    non-cat show cats/indoor cat owner :-)
                      

>    I know how Lou feels.  I'm 99.9% read-only in this file because I feel that 
>    some of those who own pedigrees and/or who breed and/or who show their 
>    cats just don't want my input being that I'm "just" the owner of three DSH 
>    cats rescued from barns and adopted from shelters.

I'm certainly interested in your input since I'm owned by 4 DSH strays and one
DMH stray.  And, I don't show them; they're just nice lap kitties that stay 
inside.

It seems to me that this thread is taking on a nasty "us" v. "them" which was
probably inevitable (I still suspect the motives of the base noter). My cats
stay in because it isn't safe outside, period.  I protect them the way I 
protect my children.  I feel terrible when I hear about a cat getting hurt, 
but I also think it could often be prevented.  If you hear about a child 
killed in a car crash because he wasn't strapped into a safety seat, don't 
you blame the parents?  It probably wouldn't be a good thing to say to the 
parents, but I'll bet most of us would think it.   And in some states, they'd
be criminally charged.

There is another reason to keep cats in; not everyone finds kitties as charming
as we do.  Over the years, I've heard lots of people complain about their
neighborhood cats ruining their gardens.  If we leash our dogs and supervise
our children, it's reasonable to ask the same of cats.

Oh well - I'm sure this discussion will continue.

			SQ

>I'm certainly interested in your input since I'm owned by 4 DSH strays and one
>DMH stray.  And, I don't show them; they're just nice lap kitties that stay 
>inside.

O.K., I'll admit I'm totally ignorant here, what are "DSH" and "DMH" strays?

Laura 

    RE. .40
    
    Well put - each to their own.
    
    And no, my base note was submitted for a genuine reason - to find out
    other peoples reasons for keeping their cats in as it is not common
    place over here.  It was not submitted to provoke an arguement as
    hinted in here.
    
    I'm going back to being a read only after the number of not-so-nice
    replies being submitted.  I know horsey people are supposed to be a
    funny bunch but........
                   

    Set note/mod_had=on
    
    Please people.. we "value differences" in this file.  This is a never
    ending battle.  Please, keep this civil.  No attacks against one
    another.
    
    
    Thanks.
    
    Holly
    co-moderator

    
    DSH = Domestic Short Haired.  Never seen DMH before, I can guess except
    for the M, maybe Medium, like between Short and Long?  This would maybe
    be cats like my Rocky and Floyd, with longish coats, but not long like
    Persians?
    
    len.
       

	Thanks guys!  
	

	Just to add a little more to this discussion, I can honestly understand
	how people feel not wanting to keep their cats indoors all the time.
	There's nothing I enjoyed more than seeing my kitties outside romping
	through the tall grass chasing bugs, birds, etc.  They'd always come
	over to me and hang around nearby seeking attention.  It's my own
	paranoia and past heartbreak that led me to the decision to keep them
	in.  I'm extremely grateful that mine don't make alot of fuss about
	going out, I never imagined how easy the transtion would be.       

	I agree with Holly, we have to value people's opinions and decisions.

	Laura
	

    I compromise... after having lost a cat to a car a year ago I changed
    from my cats being full outdoor cats to indoors at night, out during
    the day. I know cats are nocternal... but better frustrated than
    dead, (maybe).  Why not keep them in all the time then?  Because its
    a compromise. I believe, (based on observation), that 'most cats killed
    by cars are hit at night).
    
    I believe both the indoor and outdoor cat people are right.. we all
    have valid points. It comes down to, (as others have suggested) it
    all depends on personal circumstances... i.e. how close you live to
    roads, what the natural preditors are,  personal preferences etc.
    
    Jeff  

    
    Well said Jeff!
    
    Louisa

    I met a woman in my apartment complex who was out for a walk with
    her cat.  Kitty was shaved across the back and had many stitches.
    We chatted for a moment and I asked if kitty was an outdoor cat
    (I guess I was thinking the stiches were from a war wound).  The
    woman said that kitty was indoor only and that the stiches were 
    from having a lump (caused by vaccinations) removed
    
    She said that kitty just had to have her daily walk just to be sure
    outside was still there. :^)  I got a kick out of that.
    
    Supervised visits to outside are just one of many ways people
    compromise on the indoor/outdoor issue. 
    
    Jan