Conference misery::feline

    Maybe I am wrong, so check it again, but as far as I know, 
    Echinococcuses (as all coccuses) are bacteria, no worms. 
    Maybe it's called otherway. But hygiene IS a must!
    
    Nat

    I mentioned this to my vet on Saturday when Amelia went in for her
    recheck.  She told me that people who handle sheep need to be much
    more aware of this than cat and dog owners, although it certainly
    doesn't hurt us one bit to be aware of it and ask questions, etc.  
    
    I didn't have a copy of Jo's note with me to be sure we were talking 
    about the exact same type of tapeworm but I gave her as much detail
    as I could remember and we seemed to be talking about the same thing.
                                                                    
    Anyone else talk to their vet about it?
    
    Jan

    
    
    	Just a reply to .1.  When I was a practicing Medical Technologist,
    	one parasite that was known to us, and yes it was potentially
    	fatal, was Echinococcus Granulosis. It acted much the way the
    	base note described it but it was not actually a tapeworm.
    	It was definitely not a bacterium. It was really a 'card 
    	carrying parasite'. If I remember when I get home tonight, 
    	I will try to find the rundown on this and put it here. After 
    	all these years away from those things, I tend to forget the 
    	finer points. 
    	The base note indicates a different species from the one I just
    	mentioned but the same kind of beastie. One thing I do remember,
    	being the owner of a cat, is that Toxoplasmosis is the biggie
    	for cat owners to be on the alert for. 
    	You can't get a tapeworm from your cat because the tapeworms
    	that cats contract have a real specific life cycle. Cats get
    	the tapeworm by ingesting a flea which is carrying the eggs.
    	The fleas come from whatever 'flea carrying' prey kitty gets
    	his or her hooks into.
    	Can the base noter put the actual source of that article in
    	here? I would like to read it. Gotta take my new female to
    	the vet Thursday to be spayed and I can ask him about it.
    
    						inquiringly,
    						    kim
    

    I'm afraid the basenoter won't be able to post the source for a while.
    Jo just had surgery today and will be in the hospital for 10-14 days.
    Maybe when she is home I can get her to pass the information on to me
    for posting here.
    
    Jan

    
    
    	Hi. Found my book that tells about this creature.
    	Echinococcus multilocularis is indeed a different
    	species from Echinococcus granulosus. There was
    	a time when there was some discussion (a pretty
    	long time actually) as to whether it was a different
    	beastie at all. Here's the scoop. It was discovered
    	by a researcher in Alaska. It was actually found on 
    	St. Lawrence Island in the Bering Sea and went under
    	a different name for awhile (E. sibiricensis). The
    	Alaskan species (E. multilocularis) is the cause of
    	multilocular hydatid disease in man. It is believed
    	to be restricted in North America to the Alaskan tundra.
    	It has been found on the Bering and Rebun Islands in
    	Eurasia. The Russian Commonwealth has quite a population
    	of this parasite and human cases have been diagnosed 
    	in northern Switzerland and the French Jura as well as
    	southern Germany. 
    	The life cycle is similar to E. granulosus. In nature,
    	foxes, dogs, cats and wolves are the definitive hosts.
    	Rodents, especially voles are the intermediate hosts.
    	In Alaska, Eurasia and Siberia the arctic Fox is the 
    	definitive host. The red fox, dog, wolf and the
    	gray fox are naturally infected in Alaska. It kinda
    	goes on.
    	What happens with this little thing is that eggs of
    	this tapeworm (yep, it's a tapeworm) are passed from
    	feces of the definitive host and are ingested by the
    	intermediate host. The eggs of this thing can survive
    	temparatures at -26 degrees Centigrade for 54 days
    	or at -51 degrees Centigrade for 24 hours. Sturdy, huh?
    	The intermediate host (vole or whatever) ingests the
    	eggs and there are little "oncospheres" that escape
    	from within the egg and go through the intestinal wall.
    	The blood circulation carries them to the liver where they
    	lodge and grow. The larvae (that is what is now growing)
    	start budding, kinda like yeasts. The definitive host
    	gets infected when it eats the intermediate host or
    	viscera that contain the cysts that have surrounded
    	the now viable scolices (the heads with hooks). Adult
    	worms will live in the small intestine.
    	Humans can get this thing by eating fruits and veggies
    	that may have been contaminated by feces of the infected
    	canine or kitty. Hence, guard your gardens! Dispose of
    	litter properly. NO KIDDING. 
    	It is also noted that growth and proliferation is slow
    	in the human but somehow, that doesn't give me much 
    	comfort over this thing. Surgery can get rid of the
    	cysts in humans to a point. 
    	BTW, with E. granulosus, the book I have does indicate
    	possible infection if you let an infected dog lick a
    	kid (or whomever) on the mouth. Just figured I'd mention
    	that because I have heard people say that nothing bad
    	comes from that activity.
    	Well, hope that wasn't too boring. I remembered this
    	thing kinda dimly and did remember it wasn't something
    	I would personally like to have aquaintance with beyond
    	my Parisitology Book or the lab. Hope Jo is doing fine
    	after her surgery. I think that academically speaking,
    	I would like to read that article just to see what new
    	stuff they may have put in it. I would prefer it remain
    	on the tundra, you know?
    						kim
    

    I asked my vet. Coccuses are no worms. After I read all this, I'll ask
    him (and another doctor) again, with all infos herein. But I think it
    is not that important, if it is a worm or a bact, it is important to be
    afraid and keep hygienic. As soon as I have data, I'll post them.
    
    Nat

    
    
    	Hi Nat. I find some vets are kind of confusing.
    	My little Atilla had a tapeworm. I was finding
    	segments on his tail fur. Took him in to the vet
    	and the vet thought I was silly for worrying about
    	getting one myself. After going through this whole
    	drill, I now remember WHY I was worried about getting
    	it from the cat. The vet did insist humans can't get
    	a tapeworm from a cat. I plan on hauling my Parisitology
    	book in with me Thursday and showing him what causes
    	me to question that seriously. Maybe the deal here is
    	that *typically* people don't get tapeworm from cats
    	for the reason he stated. This other beastie is (or
    	at least WAS) not a real common occurance. Maybe that's
    	where the vets are coming from on this.
    
    						kim
    

    re -1 and all.
    
    Thanks Kim.
    
    I consulted vets and a parasitologue (spell?) and gathered all the
    info. The E.M. IS a tapeworm, CAN go from cat to human, and CAN be
    fatal. So all in .0 was right, and I deeply apologize for the confusion
    caused partly by me. I tried to delete my .1 reply, but I had no
    privilege to do so. So I ask the mods to do it for me, for wrong info
    is worse than no info. I go on washing hands... :^)
    
    Nat

    
    
    	You and me Nat! If we wash as frequently and as well
    	as our cats seem to do, we shouldn't have a problem. 
    	Right? *8^}
    
    						kim

    The source of the article was "The American Veterinary Medical
    Association Newsletter" I believe, but will have to find the article
    again to be sure.  Will let you know.  For now suffice it to say that
    all the pain medicine has be a bit "fuzzy."  :')
    
    Jo

    
    
    	Thanks Jo! The staff at my vets office was interested
    	in reading it. Kind of a continuing education thing.
    	You know?  
    	Keep resting up. Hoping you feel better day by day!
    				
    						kim
    

    Kim
    
    Also saw a shortened version of this article in the current issue of
    Cats magazine, in the "News" section.  The word is spreading.
    
    Jo

    I need some general information about tapeworm.  Finally, after trying
    several times to get rid of the fleas in our house, we have put the
    cats on Advantage.  The dog has been on it for about 3 months now but
    we just noticed that we again have tapeworm in the dog.
    
    How does this cycle work?  We first gave them medication for the worms
    six weeks ago and didn't see any worms till last night.  I thought I
    read somewhere that it was three weeks for the cycle to start again but
    we didn't notice them till yesterday and we scoop the dog's poops every
    day so I kno that we would of seen it before.
    
    Thanks..
    
    cj

    I don't knwo what the exact cycle is, but as I understand it, the
    tapeworm mus be at the proper place in the cycle for the for treatment
    to be effective.
    
    Deb
    

    My assumption would be that if you didn't get rid of all the
    fleas...it is very possible that the animals got reinfected.
    
    Also...is it possible that the worms could be Roundworms vs
    Tapeworms?
    
    Sandy (who is also dealing with a worm problem at the moment!!)

    Its definately tape worm and no, we didn't get rid of the fleas
    entirely, dispite our efforts.
    
    We now have the cats on Advantage but the dog is currently on Program
    and although its a good product, Advantage is better for current flea
    problems so we're getting the dog on it tomorrow.  Supposedly, it
    starts working in two hours.
    
    What I'm concerned about is when to give the tapeworm medicine because
    my assumption is that until the flea problem is gone, they all will
    continue to get worms. 
    
    And again, I'm wondering how long the cycle works in animals so I make
    sure that I get it at the specific right time.
    
    cj

    It's sort of a catch22 here.  The tapeworms will reproduce inside the
    animals, so regardless of whether there are fleas, you'll continue to
    get tapeworms.  The tapeworms in the poop are probably more infective
    to the other animals in the house than are the fleas, so definitely try
    the tapeworm med.  I'd start them on the tapeworm med at the same time
    as you're trying to get rid of the fleas.  You can always remedicate
    with the tapeworm dewormer, but this way you'll cut down on the
    infective load in the poop in the meantime (while you're trying to cut
    down on the fleas).
    
    Advantage will kill all the adults (within 24 hours), but if you have
    any immature fleas in the house, they will hatch up & become sources of
    more fleas (and tapes).  Be sure to treat the house very thoroughly as
    well.  This way you'll kill all of the current adults & hopefully all
    of the immature stages & be done withthe problem.  It's a tough one.
    
    Best of luck!

    
    Reaching way, way back to high school biology class memory archive,
    the tapeworm life cycle needs two separate hosts, I think. When the 
    cat/human is the host for the adult worm which passes egg segments, 
    the worm is living in the small intestine. The eggs cannot be hatched 
    inside the same host as the eggs have to go through the stomach first 
    for hatching to occur. So, if the eggs are promptly removed so that 
    the cat/human does not ingest it, the number of tapeworms inside the
    cat does not increase. That's why the tapeworm medicine is a one
    time pill, it just kills the adult worms. Please correct me if my
    memory fails me. Now, of course, the cat/human can be the other 
    host when the eggs are ingested and hatched. In this scenario, the
    baby worms leave the intestines and enter the blood stream (fleas
    come into the picture here?), where they can end up just about
    anywhere (think of undercook meat and fish). They pretty much just 
    sit there and wait to get eaten - they don't reproduce. Once they
    are eaten, they hang out in the intestines and produce eggs. How
    appetiting...Now, what I don't understand is the contribution of the
    fleas...
    
    
    Eva
    
    Eva