Conference misery::feline

    Meant to add one more thing - our two indoor cats are fascinated by the
    birds outside but Lea (the outdoor cat) doesn't really seem to care one
    way or the other.  Is this because she has the freedom to chase them
    any time of the day and night and the other two that are indoors are
    interested in birds only because they can't get at them?

         Cats love anything that moves, and birds move so nicely, up and
    down and sideways and so quickly!  I think that fascinates them.
    
         Mine love to see the little birds (chickadees up to grackles/blue
    jays).  They don't seem to like my larger birds, though (chickens,
    pheasants, turkeys).  I think they're too big for them ;-) .
    
    					- Andrea

    Cats like anything that is pounce-able.  Chickens, pheasants, and
    turkeys are too big, and therefore not pounce-able.  I also think I
    read somewhere that cats have some pictures (shapes) genetically 
    imprinted in their brains -- birds, mice, snakes.
    
    The chattering they make when they see a bird (or something shaped like
    a bird) is an involuntary "killing bite" rehearsal.  I have one cat who
    chatters, one who huffs, one who squeaks, and one who just watches the
    birds.  They all whip their tails while watching.
    
    Jo-Ann

    Hi all,
    
     I'm not sure if it's the freedom that makes Lea uninterested. My two go
    outside, and they would LOVE to catch birds. The way they go about it
    isn't too swift though!
    
     I put a piece of plywood on the lawn, and spread seed on that for the
    birds. I put it right next to the bushes, for their protection.
    Feendoonie, will hide at the corner of the house, and get in attack
    mode, but then she meows and chirps the whole time she's there! Gee,
    why do the birds always know I'm here! ;-)
    
     Furby is even more clever! She sits about two inched from the board,
    right out in plain sight! She's mostly white against the green grass!
    It's so funny to watch her looking around like: "Any minute now, a nice
    fat juicy bird will come down to the board, and I'm SO close, I can't
    miss!" Like she thinks if she sits perfectly still, they won't know
    she's there! What a dull bulb!
    
     They are both good mole/mouse hunters though! I have already "dealt"
    with over a dozen of these critters. This doesn't include the ones they
    may have had for lunch. I know at least one that was breakfast! I hate
    when that happens, 'cause that means almost certainly that we will have
    nice little "rice" segments of tapeworm around soon. They never ate
    them last year! Maybe it's time to try a new food? ;-)
    
    Y
    
     
    
     Y

Even my sightless kitty, Beth, 'watches' the bird feeders.  She can't see them,
but by golly, her head follows them as they fly around and she chatters at
them.  Robin, Mikey, and Biff are the ones who really want those birds for
lunch.  Julie and Honey are moderately amused.  Chauncey can't figure out
why he should care...

Mary

    Cheryl - I would be very careful with the cats jumping up at the
    window.  Having seen an animal go through a closed window with NO
    effort at all, it scares me to see any animal make movement towards
    a window. 
    
    Our cats seems to be the most interested in the squirrel who hangs
    upside down at the bird feeder trying to eat the plastic off the
    wire and get at the tube with the seed in it. Fortunately they are
    squirrel proof feeders and they work hard in vain but are there long
    enough for the cats to get all excited.
    
    Barbara & her 3M's

    Not to worry Barbara, these are the type of windows that are extra
    thick and it's very doubtful that little Zelda would go through one of
    them.  I think she is grasping the fact that there's glass separating
    her from the rest of the world.  Her latest trick is hanging on the
    screens on the porch.  She looks like one of those awful "hang in there
    baby, Friday is almost here" poster candidates.  Never a dull moment
    with that character around, and to think, she's the shy one.  :^)

    Our cats found something new to attack!  Insects of any kind!  With the
    warm weather (that's been and gone), we let the cats out on the back
    porch, which is all enclosed with screens.  Well, the other night we
    had the back light on and you know what happens with light and insects
    -- they come from miles away.  Zelda and Chubs couldn't stop attacking
    the bugs on the screens.  It's a new version of cat television that
    makes for hours of entertainment.

Mighty Beth caught and killed her first bug last week.  She did The Dance of
the Kitten Warrior all around it.  She was so proud--right up till the time
when Biff came over and ate it......

RE: .9

That Cat NEVER ceases to amaze me!  A blind cat that can catch an insect!
Incredible!

Holly

    Mary,
    
     That was a great story! I love hearing stories about Beth! She's such
    a wonderful little girl! Don't ever tell her she can't see! It would
    only confuse her! ;-)
    
    Y

    Beth amazes me every single day.  She's got this child-like quality
    about her--she'll be busy playing with something and all of a sudden,
    she runs over to me, meowing and buuurrrrrrrppping (you know what I
    mean) all the way, then she jumps up on my leg, gets a quick pat and a
    kiss and then she runs back to play.  The whole world is her
    playground!
    
    It amazed me too, but she ran around after this bug, finally snagging it
    with a sweep of the paw, just like a 'normal' cat would.  I always show
    people who come over how she fetches her mousies.  Amazing!

    I always have to print out "Beth Stories" for Leigh...he is a HUGE fan
    of hers!  Whenever Alex does something, we sometimes picture Beth doing
    something similar (they are about the same age).
    
    Just don't tell her that she is handicapped, and she'll ignore it.  ;^)
    
    K.C.

         Beth's got some good ears on her!  I'm sure that the bug walking
    around makes noise, not that *we* can hear it.  I'm always amazed,
    however, at how well she gets along.  It's *great*!
    
         The "pounceable" theory seems to be right - last night we took our
    6-week old chicks from the brooder into a holding cage, to transfer
    them out into the barn.  These girls are about a foot high now, still
    "catchable".  When we brought the cage out of the bedroom and through
    the living room to go outside Loki, who has never been outdoors but
    loves watching "Kitty TV", sat up and *stared* at the cage with this
    look that I've never seen before.  I think that if we had opened the
    cage and let the chicks go at this point, *everyone* would have
    attacked!  Wow!  I was shocked (but of course I shouldn't be - they
    *are* cats) 8-) !
    
    					- Andrea

    
    	Well since you all now know that I'm not with Cary now..
    
    	I've been living at my parent's house and Sasha is with
    	me.  Well my parent's house is 160+ years old and has
    	mice quite often.  Well Sasha caught one about a month
    	ago, I flipped out and screamed (silly I know) my dad
    	came flying out of the bathroom thinking I had hurt myself.
    	At first I couldn't figure out where she caught the little
    	bugger but I know now.  There's a section in the dining room
    	where a doorway to the kitchen was blocked off and is awaiting
    	wallpaper.  Well there's a crack/opening of about an inch or so
    	at the bottom this....Sasha has been camped out in front of
    	this little area for the past couple of days so I figure that's	
    	where the little grey mouse came from..
    
    	JJ
    

    Came home last night to find another "gift" (mole) left
    for us!  Hubby can't complain about the catcount now!!!!
    
    
    L-

Hi,

We have two outdoor cats, one a male (Puff) who is still pretty much a kitten
at least in his playfulness and his mother who gets annoyed with his 
rambunctioness. The problem is that Puff likes killing birds and his count
this year so far is close to double digits. Sometimes he eats them completely
but lately i just find stiff bird carcasses in the shed. Once i found him 
in the process of killing a bird and the poor thing was flopping all around,
feathers everywhere...i felt real bad for the bird. I yelled, "Bad cat! Bad 
Cat!", but maybe that only works for dogs.  Of course, my wife and I also 
being bird lovers don't help the situation by having several feeders 
in the yard. They are all hanging feeders since ground feeders would only
exacerbate the problem further.

Our other cat doesn't pay much attention to birds, or anything else for that 
matter, although she used to. She mostly just tries to stay out of Puff's 
way. I guess i already know the answer but is there anything i can do to stop 
or reduce the untimely death of sparrows, doves and other birds by our cat? 
I already put a bell on his neck but it doesn't appear to be helping. 

Thanks.

/james

    Basic answer ... get rid of the bird feeders.  That's about all you can
    do.
    
    Holly
    

    	More bells?  I've heard of cats stalking prey while holding a paw
    against a bell to stop it sounding!

    
    
    
    	You didn't note the location of the feeders at all. Is this
    	contributing to the hunt? Are they hanging from a tree with 
    	limbs that Puff climbs out on? Are the feeders readily 
    	accessible, or does he wait below and spring? You may want
    	to try moving the feeders if this is the case.
    
    	You can actually get a collar with several bells all around
    	it - in bright colors. Course this only works if the cats is
    	in motion. Patiently waiting hunched under the bird feeder
    	doesn't quite qualify.
    
    	My landlord also has the same problem and they've restricted their
    	cat's outside time to evenings. They wait till dark to let Callie
    	out then bring her in first thing in the morning. It hasn't
    	stopped her exactly, but it has reduced the number of birds caught.
    
    	It's hard to say "bad cat" when they're doing what natural instinct
    	commands. But you probably don't want to stop feeding the birds
    	either. You just have to make it harder for Puff to get to them. 
    
    	Good luck!
    
    

	Before restricting the cats, check the wildlife.

	Mine bought in a bat the other evening!

	Rabbits are also more prominent in the evenings, so are some animals
	that might go for cats.    

	The bird feeders are encouraging birds into your garden for your cats
	to catch, I would get rid of them.

	Heather

    Hold on, folks!  I can understand the noter's dilemma - we too have
    birdfeeders all over the place, and a cat that loves to hunt  birds! 
    At this point we don't want to give up either - the birds are actually
    a part of the ambience of our  house.  To some folks, telling them to
    give up the birds would be like someone telling you to give up your
    cats!
    
    Our solution has been to locate the feeders out in the open.  Most of
    them are still hanging from trees, but hung in such a way that a) the
    cat cannot climb out on a limb to get to it, and b) there are NO SHRUBS
    or other materials that the cat can hide under close enough to the
    feeder to allow him to run out and snag a bird on the ground or flying
    in to the feeder.  
    
    We also keep Spunk in the house during the day - he only goes out from
    6:00 - 8:00 each night, and from 9:00am to 8:00pm on weekends.  This
    has significantly reduced the number of birds we've found who have
    ended up as his prey.  He's pretty conspicuous as he sits below the
    feeder shaking his tail back and forth, and if I find him under the
    porch feeder (the only one where he can really jump up high enough to
    catch the birds swooping in to the feeder) I shoo  him away.  
    
    Anyhow, I think there's a few things that can be done without resorting
    to getting rid of the birds.  Admittedly, all cats are different and
    all cat owners are different, but the key for us has been restricting
    his schedule to low-activity hours for the bird population, and
    re-positioning the feeders to allow the birds the best chance.  We
    ended up having to do this not only because of our cat, but because of
    the neighborhood cats too.
    
    Dana & Spunkster the mighter huntster   

Thanks for the replys. I don't want to get rid of the feeders and i don't want 
to get rid of my cats, either. I love listening to all the songs of the 
different birds. Letting the cat(s) in the house part of the day is no longer 
an option as this guy is too wild. The feeders are hanging off our shed and 
one is on our window so Puff is unable to reach them. The birds he gets are 
the ground feeders. I think he hides around the corner and then pounces on 
them. Maybe eventually he'll loose interest as our other cat did. 

Oh well, i just keep reminding myself that it's nature's way of controlling
the bird population...I don't believe it, though. 

/james

Okay, it's been a few years now, and the problem with Puff has accelerated to 
killing squirrels-i found a total of 3 tails in my shed-no squirrel, just the 
tails. It looks like he eats them. He also kills chipmunks, dozens of mice, 
and anything else that moves. I love when he catches June bugs and the sound 
of them crunching as he eats them live-yuck! I can't imaging the quantity of 
wildlife that must be killed each year by cats considering the millions of 
cats there are. I added another bell to his collar last night-as if that will 
help, but it's worth a try. I am also considering getting his nails removed. 
I ownder if that would help. 

I'm just about ready to get rid of the stalker but am concerned about my 
other cat (his mother) who might miss the company. She is very sweet cat 
and nothing like her son. I don't simply want to relocate the problem, though. 
They both are strictly outside cats and i like it that way-no litter box, 
hair everywhere, torn furniture, etc. (done that, been there).  

My wife and I make a great effort to attract wildlife to our yard so getting 
rid of the feeders is absolutely not an option. 

Any more comments?

Regards, 
 
  James Mikelis, Software Partners Group

    You can position feeders and birdbaths so that the birds are relatively
    safe (away from cover cats can hide in, etc.)  Your feeders are
    attracting an abnormal number of birds (and squirrels, who eat
    birdseed) to your yard, making the birds and squirrels
    vulnerable to both your cat and any neighborhood cats (your cat
    may not even be the major source of teh dead animals).  You might
    consider instead making your yard a wildlife habitat with appropriate
    plantings, and so establish a more natural, balanced environment.
    A declawed cat should not be allowed outside, since it has no defense
    against dogs.
                                                          

It is a very natural thing that a carnivore/predator  type of animal kills and eats anything it can. You must not
blame the cat for this. Might be feeding the cat otherwise should stop (or lessen) the hunting?

From your entry it seems you love wildlife and animals and nature. Cat eating bird or mouse is NATURAL - you must
love it too. (I know - SO easy is that not!!)

I agree with the prev note with placing the too-much birdie-feeders safer, considering other predators too, and
explicitely not to declaw an outdoor cat. This would question your nature-loving...

Old Nat

My feeders are at the only place they can be that will satify all parties. 
They are on the shed, out of reach of cats, squirrels, and in view of us from 
our kitchen. Occasionally a bird drops to the ground, or certain ground 
feeding birds come around--those are the ones that are at risk of becoming 
lunch. I don't know. I've been reassessing the value of owing cats and 
whether it's worth the loss of birds and other wildlife. I'm beginning to 
hate Puff everytime i see another carcass in the shed. Fortunately, the 
female is a wonderfully sweet cat and just wants to sit on your lap and be 
pet. She has little interest in anything but affection-totally unlike her son.
She's renewed my faith in the feline species. I wonder if female cats are in 
general more passive.

/james

    Actually females are known to be much better hunters....
    
    

    I wonder if that is because they have a natual instinct to feed their
    young. ??
    
    

    re. 27
    Please do not write (and think :)) things like you start to hate the
    cat... it is not his fault. Is it possible to find for him a good new
    home? Perhaps.
    
    Nat

  I agree wholeheartedly with Nat.  Hating an animal for being what it is seems
very unfair.  Cats are hunters by instinct, not moral rationalization.  Nature
makes them what they are.  And even though they are domesticated, they have
much more in common with their wild cousins than they do with us.  It isn't
"evil" for a cat to kill a bird or mouse any more than it's "evil" for a 
shark to eat smaller fishes.

  To take this to the absurd level -- worm lovers could end up hating the 
birds.  We all fit into the food chain somehow.

			SQ

I do have a problem, however, when the game isn't eaten- just killed for the 
sport, apparently. I'm sick of finding dead things in my yard. I wouldn't mind 
as much if he ate everything he killed, but he doesn't (and won't later, 
either.) I do not approve of this activity and don't want to simply move the
problem to another location if he remains an outdoor cat. People simply don't 
realize the vast number of rare (and endangered) birds (amongst other 
wildlife) that are killed each year in the US by the common household cat. 
The number is staggering! I attended a lecture recently by a renowned bird 
expert and was suprised myself at the fact. It's a pity and unfortunately i'm 
contributing to it. 

/james

    Sounds like you should find a new home for your cat.  I am an avid
    animal lover - wild and domesticated - I feed the birds, rescue small
    animals from my two outdoor cats, etc.  But, I can accept that my cats
    WILL kill a number of the wildlife in my area.  Alot of the time they
    are bringing me "presents" - I notice this particularly when my oldest
    cat wouldn't come in at night - she invariably leaves a dead mouse on
    our doorstep at some point during the night.  I have made several trips
    to the vet with birds we have successfully rescued.  I do notice that
    the number of birds they catch is very low compared to the plentiful
    mice and voles.
    
    I also guarantee that your other cat is probably contributing to the
    body count.  She may not be as obvious but a cat that is exclusively
    kept outdoors (why have them at all? - but that's another subject) is
    definitely doing something more than laying around looking cute.
    
    I would suspect that an avid bird lovers lecture is going to be a bit
    slanted in favor of the birds and not the cats.  
    
    Do your cat a favor and find him a new home in the country where he
    will be appreciated.
    
    
    

    I do think you should find a new home for your cat where he
    will be loved.  Then be prepared to find a home for your remaining
    cat when it turns out she's also been contributing to the
    body count...  What you'll do about other cats in the neighborhood,
    I have no idea.  But, I repeat, you yourself are luring these
    birds into danger -- the birds on the ground are going after
    birdseed that has fallen there;  if you got rid of the feeders,
    I'm sure you'd see a marked decrease in the body count.
    

So what would you do, kill the cat?

    Just one of the moderators stepping to remind everyone to value
    differences here.
    
    Jan
    Moderator, FELINE

    I also wanted to say this! Noone blames James loving the birds! As you
    might overridden, in my original posting there was a smiley too! We
    have to help James with his problem, not to fall over him.
    
    re. 32 James, it is not you who contributes, not even your cat. It is 
    nature. About statistics: Xanimal lovers can always prepare some
    statistics against Yanimals, that is nature of stats, you know. As for
    contributing, one might think not to breathe any more because of
    killing a lot of bacteriae by taking air... Do not bring things too
    far. The universe is a very complex thing, and it is very hard to be a
    god.
    
    As for solution, I would say either cats or birds, as for there are the
    other cats, the "absolutely no possibility" of getting rid of the birds
    seems nearer. NO, DO NOT STOP READING AND BLAME ME, I GO ON! As for you
    love birds, they should stay also. What about making a screen under
    every feedbox to prevent food falling on the ground? Kinda highleveled
    ground. And thornwire around the poles to prevent cats climbing up. And
    some water on kitty if you see it hunting... Folks, let's try to solve
    the problem instead of just letting us out over someone, okay?
    
    Nat

By adding another surface for the bird seed to fall on, all you've done is
delay the inevitable.  Feed will fall to the "shield", then the birds will
start eating -there-, and the feed will fall further.

I'm amazed that people are taking the comments here as hits on the base
poster.  While I can't speak for the other contributors, I can say that
-I- am critizising his conclusions, not his situation.

Cats are God's gift to Man; just ask one if you want to be certain.  Birds,
from a cat's point of view, are play things and food.  Trying to combine
the lion and the lamb in a harmonius relationship would be a similar problem.

If he wants birds -and- cats, he either has to accept the natural results of
his desires (cats-who-know-how-to-hunt + bird-watcher = lots-dead-birds), or
he has to change the situation to make the above impossible, perhaps by not
allowing the cats outside.  This will distress the cats.  If you consider
that important, you must sacrifice the occasional bird.  It's one or the
other.

When a cat is distressed in this way, it may pee on things.  Be aware of this
and be prepared with a lot of good paper towels.

My personal feeling about birds is that there's always going to be more where
they came from, regardless of what the speaker he heard says.  If a cat can
get to a bird, the bird wasn't fast and/or aware enough.  Ditto mice, moles,
antelope, water buffelo, etc..  "Evolution in action"

    
    A suggestion:
    
    My birdfeeder is the sort that is suspended from a pole attached to the
    frame of my kitchen window, thus:
    
    
    
   |    ____
   |   /   |
   |  /    ^
   | /    (_)
   |]
   |
    
    It's high enough off the ground that the cats can't reach it, even at a
    superkitty leap, and periodically I remove the spilled seed from the 
    ground underneath it.  I've never had a problem with my cats killing 
    birds while outside, and it does attract lots of beautiful ones.  
    
    Unfortunately, from the little pawprints I've found, they do tend to sit 
    in the kitchen sink to watch the birds through the windows 8^).  
    

    
    A few people have already made this point, but I'd like to emphasize it
    with some embellishment.
    
    Cats are predators.  They are, in fact, among the most superbly perfected
    predators on this planet.  And they have been predators far longer than
    they have been domesticated.  We domesticated cats precisely because of
    their predatory excellence, but they are among the most recently
    domesticated animals (compared to, say, dogs and cattle), and the
    veneer of domestication is very very thin; all you have to do is watch
    a kitten grow up - virtually all of its "play" serves to hone its
    skills at catching and killing.  Cats are "obligate carnivores"; they
    *must* eat meat to survive, and prior to their domestication, they had
    to catch and kill this meat themselves.  And predator studies have
    shown that despite their highly refined predatory skills, they fail
    more often than they succeed in hunting.  So, feral cats *must* be
    opportunists to survive, and this opportunism is wired into their
    genes, so deeply and fundamentally that it's unlikely that
    domestication will ever override these basic instincts.  Domesticated
    cats may know quite well that they "don't have to" hunt to survive, but
    they can no more control this instinct than we can ignore the cry of a
    baby.
    
    When we domesticated these magnificent animals, *we* took
    responsibility for not needlessly "teasing" them with predatory
    opportunities that they simply cannot resist.  *We* are the ones with
    the "moral sense" that says, "my cats are well fed, they shouldn't eat
    the birds I like to have visit me".  I love birds too, they are
    extraordinary creatures (they *FLY*, and that by itself is more than
    enough to warrant our awe, never mind a beauty and grace that is only
    matched by that of, guess what, cats), so I accept that it's *our*
    responsibility to make sure that these two species can coexist in our
    lives.
    
    The Peaceable Kingdom is an artifice of human devise.  It is not a fact
    of Nature.  If we want it, we must take responsibility for managing it.
    
    My cats don't prey on birds because they're indoor cats.  If I chose to
    let my cats live more "natural" lives outdoors (ignoring for the
    moment the "naturalness" of the contemporary urban environment), then I
    would also have to accept their routine preying upon birds (and a whole
    host of ground dwellers).  And were that quid pro quo unacceptable to
    me, it's my responsibility to figure out how to spare my cats the
    irresistable provocation of prey.    
      
    len.
    

>Cats are God's gift to Man; 
one man's opinion- i feel that way about dogs. I'm not knocking them, but my
dog returns more to me in affection and companionship than both my cats...but 
he does require more work. 

>My personal feeling about birds is that there's always going to be more where
>they came from, regardless of what the speaker he heard says.  

I can say the same for cats. I'm talking about the rare/endagered species of 
birds that are being reduced. There will always be plenty of sparrows, jays, 
predatory birds, but the diversity of birds is shrinking-especially
migratory birds. This is due in part to loss of habitat but also to 
significantly to roaming housepets. It's the same for other wildlife. 
This is a very hot issue with me so i won't go down a rathole. 

>Ditto mice, moles, antelope, water buffelo, etc..  
There's a difference between killing for sport and killing for survival. It 
angers me when my cat wipes out the life of a snake or chipmunk and leaves 
its carcass behind when it stops moving and the "fun" is over. 

>"Evolution in action"
yes, with man's help-of course. 

I can now see that outdoor cats cannot coexist in general with any living 
creature smaller than them, and there is no easy solution to my "problem" 
other than keeping the cats inside, or giving them away. I still have not 
decided what to do about it. 


/james

re:      -< The Irresistable Provocation of Prey >-

Well said, Len.

/james

    
    Females are as good as if not better than hunters than males, 
    since males don't hang around to help with feeding the babies.
    
    IMO, James didn't make a commitment to take care of the birds.
    James did make a commitment to have the mother cat and the male
    kitten, maybe without full understanding of the nature of the 
    animals. In James' world, birds are more important than cats,
    which is apparent in his entries. No judgement here. If James
    cannot make his cats happy and his birds happy, James has to
    choose. But James, don't blame your cats just because *you* can't
    provide them with an environment that everyone is happy with.
    You may have made the wrong choice, and that's ok, but *you*
    need to take the responsibility in your actions, ;-( since
    the cats are innocent. The cats maybe better off somewhere else 
    if you find the birds to be more important, you can't have the 
    cake and eat it, too ;-)
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    One more thing...
    
    It's a completely inappropriate anthropomorphism to assume that cats
    that don't kill for food are killing for "play".  This point was buried
    in my long winded dissertation, but it's worth calling out explicitly.
    To the extent that cats actually "play", they do so to refine their
    hunting skills.  Cats cannot help preying on anything that's the right
    size and moves the right way, even if they've just eaten a full meal.
    They have no choice, anymore than I can choose to suppress a sneeze
    when my nose is irritated.
    
    The moral justification that killing for food is OK but any other killing
    is bad means absolutely nothing to a cat, it's an entirely human concept
    that cannot be reasonably projected on a cat.
    
    The hardest thing for cat lovers to accept is that these playful, furry,
    affectionate creatures are *KILLER*s, first and foremost.  They became
    our companions because they kill rats and other vermin better than
    anything else.  Acknowledge this fact and respect them for it.  Cats
    should inspire in us the same awe and respect that the great raptors
    do.  It is a source of continual amazement to me that my cats deign to
    live in harmony with me, and perhaps even more so that I trust them not
    to shred me were I to annoy them the least little bit.
    
    len.
    

    
    James,
    
    	Your cats are well fed, thus they don't eat their
    preys. Even if they are well fed, once they are outdoors
    they still have the instinct to hunt and polish their
    skills. Just like this world really doesn't need any
    more cats, but when their hormones starts going, they
    will mate and reproduce, unless we fix them. As Len
    put it, there is no *morals* in nature. When people
    start to force our human social morals and values onto 
    nature, the whole planet turns upside down.
    
    
    Eva

Re .41:

I suggest you read a whole statement before you try to attack it out of
context.  This will give you better credibility.

Your last paragraph sounds like you're beginning to understand what you're up 
against.  You have to make up your own mind.  Since you asked the question
in a conference about cats, it shouldn't surprise you when you find that
the people here tend to favor cats.  If you asked the same question in a
Notes file about birds, I suspect you'd get a different concensus.

IMHO, cats are the only critters worth having as pets.  Others in other
situations may have other opinions.  Cats are companionable, they're
friendly, they can be relied upon to not be slavish, and they're nicely
independant.  I can go away for a few days and not have to worry about
coming home to messes on the floor.  I can move long distances with the
cats in the car w/o them getting in the way.

If you want slavish, get a dog.  If you want destructive, get a large bird.
If you want moving colors, get saltwater fish.  I personally don't want any
of those other things enough to put up with the problems which come with
them.  I just wish my cats knew how to hunt.

It all comes down to, what do you want?  Good luck.

    
    That's what I like about our Notes Conference, you learn something
    new everyday.  Didn't know what slavish meant, now I do!!! Well said
    .46...
    
    Happy first day of Summer!
    
    

Re .44:

Good stuff, and full agreement.

One way to look at house cats is to consider the larger cats first.  The large
cats (I'm thinking of lions) pray on critters which are some times -bigger-
than them, sometimes by quite a bit (elephants, hippos).  But they hunt in
groups, so they can pull this off on the rare occasions that they decide to
try.

Smaller cats have different methods.  Panthers don't hunt in groups, so they
have to go after smaller game.  I understand that there is (or was, until
recently) a medium size cat attacking sheep in Britain.  It would find a
sheep, gut it, eat, and go on its way.  Sometimes it would just gut it
and go on its way.  I don't know the full story.

House cats are like this, with restrictions placed on them based on their
size and temperament.  Since they don't hunt in groups, you don't find house
cats taking down deer.  You also find them avoiding critters closer to their
size, such as raccoons, out of self-preservation.  They're limitted in what
they can catch to that which is small enough for them, and which doesn't put
them in danger of being caught by some -other- predator.

So they go after small birds (ever heard of a house cat going after an eagle?)
and rodents and such.

Morality, as Len said, is a human concept, and only humans can be truly held
accountable to it.

re .41

>>Ditto mice, moles, antelope, water buffelo, etc..  
>There's a difference between killing for sport and killing for survival. It 
>angers me when my cat wipes out the life of a snake or chipmunk and leaves 
>its carcass behind when it stops moving and the "fun" is over. 

Okay James, I can see we'll never reach an understanding.  I know it's been
said at least half a dozen times that cats don't kill for sport; they hunt and
kill to hone their skills for survival, but you aren't listening.

My cats are indoor cats and they have an involuntary response to all birds they
can see from the windows.  My husband calls it chunnering -- I have no idea
what it really is but they make a very low noise and their mouths quiver.  
They are focused in a way that resembles top athletes at the starting line.

BTW, one of my kitties (the old one) comes when we call her, talks to us, 
and heels like a dog.  Some of the younger ones are starting to behave 
similarly.  I always had dogs as a kid, and this kitty is darn close in
behavior -- possibly because we all adored her the moment she walked into our
lives.  Animals "know" how you feel about them and your cats probably know 
you like the dog best.  Fairly devastating to an egocentric feline, I'd say.

I wish you'd bring your kitties inside and give them the same chance to 
really bond with you.  Here's hoping to a good life for you and your 4-leggeds.

			SQ

Whew! well, okay...i think enough has been said on this topic. I feel like i 
have a better understanding of cats, now. I'm going to digest all that was 
said and reach an agreement with myself that will be best for all parties 
involved. Thanks for all the responses.

/james

    Good luck, James.
    
    And please, don't blame anybody in here - and also not yourself. I am
    sure that any each noter wished to help your cats and you and noone has
    anything against birds as well :^)
    
    If you did not get cross with all of us ;^), please let us know later,
    which the right solution was.
    
    Once again, good luck to you all.
    
    Old Nat