Conference misery::feline

    I have heard of the Bengal cats.  When I used to show TICA, there was a
    Bengal breeder that would bring kittens/cats to shows on exhibition.  I
    think that the cats may be accepted in TICA by now, but I am not sure. 
    I haven't shown TICA in several years (maybe 4?).
    
    The cats were very wild looking, but their temperaments were not wild
    (from what I could tell by observation).
    
    Jo

I read one article on the Bengals...it was by a vet who had worked with a
breeder.  The most interesting points to me were:

	1) Bengal cats don't breed well, and most often throw "mules" - 
	   sterile cats that will never reproduce when a breeding does take.

	2) They are large, and they are not really domesticated and that
	   means they are difficult/impossible to box train, they can be
	   dangerous to other cats/dogs/children.  This article stated
	   that these cats don't belong in homes with children.  Period.

	3) The wild side of the breeding is an equatorial cat and Bengal
	   cats don't withstand changes in weather, particularly cold
	   weather.  They are prone to respiratory problems and, in
	   general, are not a robust cat.  I, personally, believe that
	   a major part of the problem is due to the fact that the
	   breeding with domestic cats is a genetic "stretch"... the wild
	   cat is just too far "off" the scale for a good, healthy result
	   from this cross-breeding.  My evidence is the fact that they
	   have almost NO Bengal males that will produce young..most of
	   them are sterile.  

I would not be surprised if the female domestic cat bred to a wild cat 
suffered during the process, even to the point of death.  Cross-breeding
of this nature is not a "natural" process and it would not occur in the
wild.  In fact, in the wild, it is quite possible the smaller cats which
are more closely related to our domestic cats might be prey for the larger
wild cats which produce the Bengals.  I would never do anything to encourage
or support the breeding of these cats as I believe they are not beneficial.
They add nothing to the gene pool of any existing breed of cats, and they
aren't a robust, healthy example of a new breed.  Besides, I don't even
think they are that pretty...The pictures I saw show a large, light colored
cat with a very odd-looking head, and short, spotted fur.  

It is pretty amazing what some humans will do just to be different, isn't
it?

    Hi Holly,
    
    When I went to look at an Ocicat litter I asked the breeder about the
    Bengal breed.  They (her and her husband) weren't too empressed.  He
    said that the characteristics of Bengals have yet to be defined.  He
    also said they weren't that attractive (this could be he didn't want to
    lose a sale?).  He had nothing to worry about with me....they cost
    about $1000 for pet quality!  
    
    A woman in the Bellingham, MA area was advertising at the vet's office
    Bengal kitties for $1k if anyone is interested.
                                        
    ...Rania

    I believe last fall Cat Fancy did their feature article on Bengals. I
    don't remember which month and I give my old magazines away. Maybe if 
    someone has the back issues and check out the article and give us a
    report. I don't remember a lot of negative comments about the breed,
    but it was several months ago that I read it.
    
                                           Alice

RE: .2

Do you know where you read this in?  I'd love to get a copy of the article.

thanks for the information.  I know what my vote is going to be already.
I don't want these cats in our association.  They are a danger to the
judge, spectators, and the society.  Not to mention the other cats!

And I agree with your last paragraph, completely!

thanks again.

Holly

	I remember the article, too - must have been Cat Fancy, as I
	received that for a while.

	Also saw some featured when the Anaheim show was televised a
	year or so ago.  They were beautiful cats, but I seem to recall
	someone saying that they were still unpredictable - not for
	households with young children, etc.

	Sandy

re: where I read about the Bengals

unfortunately, I am a compulsive reader whereever I land...this was a vet
magazine in my vet's office - in her desk cubicle - and I don't know the
name of the publication (it wasn't a mainstream type of mag, but rather one
aimed at vets, sorta like the vet equivalent of the AMA magazine that people
doctors get).  I read the article approx. 12 months ago.

I don't feel nearly as concerned about the temperament problems as I do the
general health of the animals...temperament can be bred down to manageable
levels..IF the half-wild Bengal stock can breed.  Unfortunately, from the
tone of this article, that appears a very unlikely scenario.  As long as
they must go back to the wild stock for half of their genetic package, the 
resulting cats are going to be very unpredictable, in behavior and in
general health...forgive me, but I was going to be a geneticist until I
got detoured to computers...

This article was not, in general, a hyper-critical article, but rather was an
attempt to keep the vets out there informed of what these cats are like
as patients.  I gleaned the main points from it - and MY interpretation of
the data is quite negative.  Some folks find the basic health
vulnerability, and unpredictable nature, of the cats worth the price to
own such an animal.  I, on the other hand, see this as another example of
humans messing around with nature and damaging the baseline health of
the resultant animal.  This is a BIG issue with me as I feel no breeding should
be attempted unless the breeder attempts to, at the very least, maintain
the robustness of the breed....ideally, they should be attempting to ENHANCE
the robustness of the breed.

    No apologies necessary, Dian.  I learn a lot from reading your notes,
    and the subject of genetics has always fascinated me.
    

     
      Re .7...
    
      Couldn't agree more!! There are so many fine, domestic breeds today
    that it seems rather selfish and not too bright to be messing with wild
    breeds in this day and age. Many times the interbreeding of two
    domestic types comes out with a real neat package. In this month's
    "Cats" magazine has an article on one of these....the "Tonkinese",
    which originated from a cross between a Siamese and another one that I
    can't remember off hand. The result was originally called the "Golden
    Siamese", which should give you an idea of what the breed looks like.
    
      Many times the wild genes just don't mix well with domesticated
    animals..
     
      JM

RE: .9

I believe that the Tonkinese is a cross between the siamese and the burmese.
Not sure, though.  They're beautiful, and actually look somewhat like the
old applehead siamese!

That is a little bit different.  I really appreciate all of the comments
I've gotten here.  Hopefully the people in CFF will come to their senses
and will not allow these cats to be exhibited in our show halls.  I have a
feeling that if they are accepted, then there are goiing to be a lot of
people LEAVING the federation.  This is simple cruel to these poor
animals and offspring.

    I agree with all the comments made here that this is a poor "breed" of
    cat.  I put "breed" in quotes because it has always been my (completely
    novice) understanding that a breed wasn't a breed unless it could
    sustain itself. 
    
    If there are no fertile male Bengal cats and breeders are constantly
    using wild males, does this mean that they are taking the males from
    the wild habitat? If so, this is hardly an environmentally responsible
    thing to do.
    
    Sign me, Less than Impressed.
    
    LaDonna

    I don't know anything about the Bengal cats except what I've read here,
    but I agree with the general sentiment expressed so far.
    
    It sounds a lot like the story of the wolf hybrids.  We have a hybrid
    in our shelter now, but because of the unpredictability of them, we are
    not allowed to adopt her out.  The future of this poor animal is very
    uncertain right now, and I feel for her because she seems to be a very
    nice animal.  It is a crying shame that this animal is in this
    position.  She is branded not adoptable, not because of her behavior,
    but because of problems with other hybrids and owners who did not act
    responsibly.  We are trying to find a qualified haven for her - we had
    one but the person wanted to breed her, and we wouldn't allow that (and
    we then had her spayed to make sure she wouldn't be bred). 
    
    Someone will get hurt with these Bengal cats, and then they will be in
    the same boat as the wolf hybrids - animals without a place to go, many
    of them nice, but branded due to incidences caused by unpredictable
    behavior and/or owner irresponsibility.
    
    If a mating of two animals produces non-fertile offspring, that is
    nature's way of stopping the line.  
    
    IMHO....
    
    Sue B.

    We have a breeder up here who breeds Bengals.  I am reasonably certain
    they are accepted by TICA as I see her at the shows.  She has a
    breeeding group and as far as I know no problems.  THEY are not from
    wild stock, at least not for the last 3-4 generations.  Where she
    got hers I don't know.  She has small children and as far as I know no
    problems in that area.  She was in our club - due to politics (as
    usual) she and a couple of others left.  If I can contact her (she has
    no axe to grind with me) I will try and ask her about your
    concerns/rumours.
    
    Linda

    I heard about a refuge for half-wolves but unfortunately don't
    recollect where it is.  You might call the Fund for Animals and
    see if they know;  I think F for A is based in New York;  if you have
    Cleveland Amory's books he probably has the address in there.
    

    Re: wolves
    
    See topic 184.
    
    Jo

    re .14, .15
    
    Good idea about the F for A - I have his books and will look it up.
    
    We have tried a couple others - most places have long waiting lists or
    are just full up.  We won't give up soon though.
    
    We will also try to contact Wolf Haven - I would like to donate to them
    anyway. 
    
    Thanks for the suggestions...
    
    Sue B.

Well, I'm sorry and ashamed to say, these cats WERE accepted into CFF as
an experemental breed.  This was after a LONG debate that lasted from 9:00 am
to 12:00 pm.  There were debates about the wildness of this breed, where
they came from, and so on.  

At first, it lost.  They needed a 2/3 majority vote and it lost by one vote.  
But then they realized that any other breed that has been accepted to 
experemental status only needed a simple majority instead of a 2/3 majority.
Therefore, they were passed. )-:

I will say however that the cats that the woman brought with here WERE
beautiful cats and were very well behaved.  A 5 month old kitten was passed
around the meeting and everybody handled it.  It purred from one end of the
meeting room to the other.  The male that she brought with her was beautiful
and was passed around as well, but by the owner.

We did however pass one proposal that helped out a bit.  It said that 
first, second, and third generation wild/domestic crosses will not be 
allowed into the show hall what so ever.    Therefore only 4th generation
Bengals will be allowed to be shown.

I was against these cats from the beginning.  Not only because of the temperment
of these cats, but from their origin.  I'm afraid of what happens to the
cats when they breed a first generation bengal.  I'm also concerned that
the wildlife association is going to get really badmouth CFF because of
this.

Holly

    Does CFF usually only require three generation pedigrees on cats that
    are registered?  I now that TICA does.  CFA requires five.
    
    Jo

That's a good point!  I believe that we require four, but not sure.  
Interesting!  I never thought of that!  Will have to bring that up!

thanks, JO!

Holly

    The newest cat book I purchased featured a two page spread on the
    Bengal, and from what it stated, the wild cat is no longer required to
    maintain the breed, so it is quite domestic now.
    
    I will try to remember to bring in the book and type in the contents of
    the feature.  The book is called "The Mini Atlas of Cat Breeds" and is
    relatively new.
    

    While at the vets last week I noticed this article on the Bengal.  I
    decided to type it in for those interested.  
    
    I took it from: CATCOMPANION - May/June 1991

    THE BENGAL: A WALK ON THE WILD SIDE 
    By: Stephanie Poythress-Cook

    What do you get when you cross a domestic with and Asian leopard cat? 
    An appropriate punch line might be "a cat who gets as many catnip toys
    as he wants," but the real answer is - a Bengal.

    The Bengal is a domestic cat with a wild ancestry - in that respect,
    not unlike the average house cat.  But while most domestic cats have to
    go back thousands of years to find a wild ancestor, the Bengal's "wild
    side" is much closer - and it was put there by human intervention.

    Over the past 28 years, there have been several different tacks taken
    in breeding Bengals.  A Bengal can be loosely defined as any domestic
    shorthair crossed with the Asian Leopard Cat.  Most cats available
    today are linked to the "creations" of breeders Willard Venterwall,
    M.D. in 1970; Ethel Hawser in 1984; or Gregg Kent, Ph.D. in 1985.
                    
    But the first-recorded and most diligent breeder of the Bengal is Jean
    Mill, who is credited with the originating breed.  In 1963, she crossed
    an Asian Leopard Cat and a black American Shorthair.  That's not quite
    so extreme a step as it sounds - an Asian Leopard Cat is not the same
    as the leopards we've seen in zoos; rather, it is found in the
    Malaysian peninsula and is a wild spotted animal about the size of a
    house cat.  The result was a Bengal kitten named Kin-Kin.  Later, in
    1980, Mill worked on "perfecting" the breed by replacing the American
    Shorthair with an Egyptian Mau.
                                  
    Why create such an unusual mix?

    In the 1960's wild leopard cat cubs often were taken by poachers, who
    had killed their mothers for their fur.  These cubs were sold in pet
    stores.  As the "pets" matured they developed into the wild animals
    they would have become if left in the jungle.  Many managed to escape
    or were placed in zoos by their owners.  Mill hoped to end this
    senseless cycle by cross-breeeding one of these exotic animals with a
    more sedate and houseworthy cat.

    The World Wildlife Fund estimates by the year 2000, all exotic cats
    will be confined to zoos, wildlife reserves or national parks, and in
    100 years, they may well be extinct because of poaching or loss of
    habitat.

    Mill says she is doing what she can to preserve a wild-looking breed. 
    She thinks of herself as an artist.  Instead of paints, Mill uses genes
    to try to take some pressure off of the wild population.  She compares
    her cats to prints of famous works of art.

    "Not many people would know what the Mona Lisa looks like, let alone be
    able to own it, if it were not for prints.  My 'prints' let people see
    what the wild cats look like and give them an opportunity to own a cat
    that looks wild," she says.

    Mill studied genetics in 1946, when she was a graduate student at the
    University of California, Davis.  While most students in the program
    studied poultry and livestock, she wrote her thesis on the results of
    crossbreeding a Persian and a Siamese cat (later called a Himalayan).
    In 1963. she created the first-recorded Bengal.  In 1965, she took a
    break from breeding when she was widowed.  Ten years later she
    remarried, and her husband, Robert Mill, got her started again.

    Robert, a semi-retired engineer, says he is not really an animal-lover. 
    In fact he's allergic to cats.  But having the Bengals around is fine
    with him, because they make his wife happy.

    Mill originally named this new breed the "Leopardette."  Others used
    the name "Bengal," which caused confusion.  An advertisement for a 1986
    Arlington, Va. cat show called the breed a cross between a domestic cat
    and a tiger (a bit of an exaggeration, and an interesting prospect to
    ponder).  The people who flocked to see this unusual animal were
    surprised to find a calm and cuddly cat.  The International Cat
    Association (TICA), being the only cat association to accept the breed
    was the ultimate name-decision-maker in this case, and opted to keep
    "Bengal" as this breed's name.

    A first-generation cross produces a playful kitten who will become a
    shy and nervous adult of mixed temperament, similar to the wild animal. 
    Male first-hybrids are infertile, as is the case with many
    cross-breedings in other animals (a mule, for example).  Female Bengals
    may give birth to a litter of one to five kittens.  Mill notes that,
    since males may sire many liters, only top males should be used for
    breeding.  Careful and selective breeding is important, Mill says;
    friendly parents produce friendly children.

    Bengals are about the size of American Shorthairs and have bright tan
    or gold coats with inky, black brown or rust spots and stripes-sharp
    color contrasts, like those on cats of the wild.  Two rarer coat types
    can result from Bengal crossbreeding: snow leopard and marble, although
    there are fewer than 50 of these to date.  No two marble coats are
    alike, unlike the snow leopard whose coat is ivory with dark spots.  No
    matter what color the Bengal is, the tail must be black-tipped.

    Bengal kittens go through a gray stage between the ages of two and six
    months. The deep colors of their coats disappear - a natural protection
    system that helps preserve the lives of wandering young in the wild -
    but return a few months later in their full splendor.

    Well-bred Bengals are affectionate, intelligent (derived, no doubt,
    from natural selection for jungle survival), use a litterbox like any
    other cat, climb and run, are curious and love water.

    TICA and the American Cat Fanciers Association (ACFA) are the only
    associations currently recognizing this breed.  The Cat Fanciers'
    Association (CFA) excludes cats with wild blood.

    If you are thinking of purchasing a Bengal for a pet, look for a cute
    friendly kitten with a black tailtip.  If you would like to breed the
    animal, look for those same traits, plus a sharp contrast in the colors
    of its coat, good genetic health, a soft coat and a pedigree with
    TICA-Registered Bengal grandparents.  If you are interested in the show
    circuit, the cat should have all of the preceding and be of spectacular
    beauty; have small ears with light-colored backs; an unusual,
    wild-looking face; a long, deep body; few stripes on the ribs and legs;
    white undersides; and rosette spots.

    If you do not live near a Bengal breeder, you can write to breeders
    requesting photos of their kittens.  Look for those features important
    to the purpose of your cat (pet breeding or showing).  After making a
    section and purchasing a kitten, you can often arrange air shipment and
    pick the kitten up at the airport baggage office.  Confine a new Bengal
    kitten to a small area until it knows the litterbox and welcomes you. 
    Feed it three times a day until it is `6 weeks old.  Discourage playful
    biting and it will learn to be gentle.  Adults will eventually weigh
    from 10 to 16 pounds and have a raspy voice which they seldom use.

    Mill does not breed her Bengals for commercial purposes, although she
    has sold cats for prices ranging from $600 to $3,000.  She breeds them
    in her Covina, Calif., backyard and considers her work a full-time job
    as well as hobby.

    As cat breeds go, Bengals are so innovative they're still considered
    new.  They will have to be around for many more years, and criteria
    will have to be established, before Bengals will be recognized by the
    other cat association, assigned judging standards and allowed into
    other cat shows.

    For a list of breeders who are members of the International Bengal Cat
    Society, send a self-addressed, stamped envelope to:
    
    Leslie Hall, Secretary, 
    International Bengal Cat Society 
    1547 Greenly Road 
    Bakersfield, CA  93312

    
    
>    In the 1960's wild leopard cat cubs often were taken by poachers, who
>    had killed their mothers for their fur.  These cubs were sold in pet
>    stores.  As the "pets" matured they developed into the wild animals
>    they would have become if left in the jungle.  Many managed to escape
>    or were placed in zoos by their owners.  Mill hoped to end this
>    senseless cycle by cross-breeeding one of these exotic animals with a
>    more sedate and houseworthy cat.
    
    
    
    This does not make any sense to me.  How can you stop the killing of 
    small wild cats for their fur by creating a "wild looking" domestic
    cat for the 'pet trade'. (I use quotes for pet trade because at the 
    prices quoted here, these cats are anything *but* pets.) Selling the
    orphan wild cubs to pet stores is simply a side effect of the fur 
    poaching. They were of no value for their fur so the poachers got the 
    bucks where they could.
    
    I think this Mill woman is misguided and would do more good by expending 
    her efforts in battling against the fur trade which provides a market for 
    the pelts of these wild cats and keeps poachers in business.  But I
    suppose that is less rewarding personally and the intoxicating
    temptation to play God by "creating" a new breed is just impossible to
    resist.
    
    I'm still not impressed.
    
    LaDonna

    Hi LaDonna,
    
    I was thinking the same thing when I first read the article.  Didn't
    and still dosen't make much sense to me.  I suppose she figures she can
    stop the cubs being taken from the wild by producing the Bengal breed
    and satisfying people's desire to have a wild-looking breed.  But if
    the mothers weren't taken for their fur then...
    
    ...Rania
    

    I recently visited a TICA show on one of my few weekends off and saw
    several bengals at that show.  The ones I saw appeared friendly and one
    breeder I spoke to in great detail.  She said most of her cats were
    seventh generation bengals and she has two small children.  She said
    they are friendly and affectionate and does not have any concerns about
    having them around her children.  She picked up her seven month old
    male kitten and put him in my sister's arms and he purred and loved her
    like she was a long lost owner.  There was an older male there being
    shown and he was huge.  He did not seem so happy to be there but was no
    more aggressive or vocal than any other male cat I have seen on the
    show bench.  The bengal's coat is very soft and silky and has a very
    interesting pattern to it.  I didn't feel they looked wild just exotic.
    I didn't inquire about health problems as I didn't have an interest in
    breeding but we did talk about temperament.  This particular breeder
    felt that those people who were doing 1st and second generation bengals
    were having more aggressive bengals than those with fourth generation. 
    It does make sense that the closer you are to the wild cat the more
    concern of health and temperament problems.  I know that she said that
    CFA has not approved of them "yet" but they are continuing to work on
    CFA to convince them that fifth generation bengals are no more wild
    looking or acting than any other cat, just exotic looking.  Personally,
    I don't make judgements on a particular breed of cat without first
    seeing them for myself.  If found the singapuras, egyptian maus and
    ocicats was just as difficult temperamentally and to show as the
    bengals.  We have all seen many other breeds out there on the show
    bench that had its moments as well.  I feel my real issue with any new
    breed of cat is that those forumating the breed are being responsible
    and are educated and well informed individuals in breeding and
    genetics.  From the article recently noted it sounds like that is
    happening.  Granted though there may be some breeders out there that
    are doing more harm because they are not educated and responsible
    breeders and that is the risk implied with the formation of any new
    breed.  If they are selling for major $$ then there will be people
    tempted to get involved in the breeding of them to capitalize on the
    newness and exoticness of the breed just as a business.  I think that
    CFA is wise to wait and watch how the breed develops and if things are
    done right they will probably be let in but if it isn't then we can
    only hope it won't.  I certainly will wait to make my decision on how I
    feel about them until they have had more time to develop and evolve. 
    
    
    Nancy

I am totally opposed to any cat breed that uses wild stock.  The fact that
some bengal breeders out there are using only domestic stock does not
offset the fact that many bengal breeders are still going back to the wild
stock for the characteristics they feel make a "real" bengal...the wild cats
have enough pressure on habitat and from poaching for fur products that they
simply cannot withstand the additional pressure of trapping of kittens for
sale as pets/breeders.  They are assured extinction in the wild that much
faster because of this.  It is a completely preventable tragedy caused by
human greed.

It is my opinion that the woman who started the bengal breed was, at best,
terribly misguided.  She has made another wild creature even more desirable
to the human population - and that is certainly to their detriment.  I hope
the CFA officials think this through and deny this breed status...it might
help stem the tide.

    I do not think that we have to worry about CFA accepting this breed of
    cat.  CFA has very strict rules about accepting new breeds for 
    championship status.  Right now, Bengals are not even accepted for 
    miscellaneous status in CFA.  Also, CFA will not accept any breed that 
    has wild blood, each new breed has to breed "true", and each new breed 
    has to have characteristics enough to distinguish it from other accepted 
    breeds.
    
    Jo
    

    re .25
    
    Well said - my sentiments exactly.

    I know this isn't about the Bengal, but I didn't want to start a new
    topic.  
    
    In the news tonight, there was a story of a little girl that was mauled
    by a lion/tiger cross, called a "Liger".  This animal was a 400 pound
    animal that was privately owned in Oregon.  The little girl reached her
    hand through the cage and the cat grabbed her with his mouth and tried
    to pull her into the cage.  The cat had to be shot to release the
    little girl.  According to doctors, the little girl is in satisfactory
    condition and should regain full use of her hand.
    
    I just don't understand why people want to keep wild animals as pets. 
    They aren't meant to be pets, they are meant to live in the wild.  I'm
    sorry the little girl got hurt, but I'm also sorry that this animal had
    to live and die in this manner.  This is a *real* hot button for me.
    
    Karen

    I can answer your question with one word...status.
    
    Pathetic, ain't it?
    
    K.C.

    Has anyone out there heard about the new breed of kitty?  It
    is called a Bengal Tiger Kitty and it is said to be the result
    of some genetic breeding of Asian Leopards and common house cats.
    This probably sounds far out but someone in our office brought
    in a picture of this beautiful creature.  According too the article
    the breed is only 5 years old and therefore is considered to wild
    to be entered into cat shows.  However, they are fine as house pets.
    Anyway, the article went on to say that these beauties are selling
    from $500.00 - $2500.00.  I met someone at the Burlington Mall on
    Saturday and we started talking about cats.  He jumped out of his
    skin when he saw the picture and said that he wanted to purchase 
    one of these kitties for his sister for Christmas.  He did not even
    flinch at the price!!  Anyway, he has asked me to find out how and
    where he can purchase one.  The person who brought in the article 
    does not remember from what periodical she clipped it from.  Soooo,
    thats where you guys come in.  Ever hear of a Bengal Tiger Kitty??
    Any ideas as to where I can  find out about them??  Just what this
    world needs - another breed of pusseycat!!!      
    
    Thanks for your help,
    Arlene

    I am the person who entered the previous note.  I guess that 
    I am a little behind the times!!  Sounds like this kitty is a one
    kitty house cat.  This person told me that his  sister already has
    9 other cats.  Sounds like a Bengal might not be a good idea.
    
    Should I have him contact a breeder?
    
    Thanks,
    Arlene 

    I thought I read something about this cat in a recent Cat Fancy?

    Yes, I remember a recent article, too.  Can't tell you what month it
    was in, though.  Cat Fancy also has a good list of Bengal breeders in
    the back, which lists the breeders' addresses and phone numbers.

    There is a new article in Cat Fancy this month (Oct 95 issue) about
    Bengals. There are some great pictures of Bengals in there. I was
    wondering does anyone know if their temperments have improved with
    more selective breeding. They are beautiful cats.