Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

    
    As they say in the trade, "Just f***ing wonderful" !!!!!
    
    This should have some interesting repercussions in the record biz.....
    
    

    
    This isn't news, LaserDiscs (Video) have had a problem with longevity
    also, it was only a matter of time until something showed up on
    CDs. My understanding is that this information has been rumored
    for some time, it will be very interesting to see what it does to
    the record industry in the press.
    
    Only diamonds are forever... :-)
    
    							--- Neal

    The problem with laser videodiscs, known in the trade as "laser
    rot" was a *slightly* different problem. Though it was the same
    basic oxidation problem, it was caused by an imperfect seal of the
    plastic coating along the edge of the disc, allowing air to get
    to the aluminum. Once the cause of the problem was determined, the
    manufacturing process was tightened up to prevent it.
    	Since a videodisc uses *both* sides, the label material does
    not affect any data-storage part of the disc.
    
    --- jerry

    I suspect that the price of CDs will drop as a result of
    this.  Record companies can no loger claim that CDs are
    a premium item since they degrade just like records and
    tapes do.  Also the tarnished image of CDs may slow the
    sale of players and the development of new CD technology,
    not to mention slow the sales of CDs themselfs.
    
    Personally, I'm pissed.  I own about 40 CDs and I don't
    like the thought that anytime in the next 3-10 year period
    they might become useless.
    
    Martin H.

    Hmmmmm....                                                  
    
    Who prints inks directly on the disc's shiny surface?  (Lacquer
    or no lacquer.)
    
    I thought that the ink was applied to the OUTSIDE of the plastic.
    
    If you are that paranoid about this, scrape the ink off your discs.
    *I* wouldn't recommend that, but hey, if you are really really worried.
    
    
    								-mr. bill

    Re/ .5:
    
    I would think scraping the ink off would hasten the process of air
    getting to the aluminum layer.  I think the theory was that the ink is
    applied to the outside of the lacquer, but that it penetrates, and
    allows air to reach the aluminum and oxidize it.
    
    I'm not ready to panic yet, but with over 600 CDs, I certainly dread
    the prospect of their evolving into drink coasters.  Does anyone have
    anymore positive confirmation of this?

    How many of your 600 cds are coated with lacquer?
    
    Still sounds like FUD to me.
    
    								-mr. bill

    RE: .4
    
    >>>        I suspect that the price of CDs will drop as a result of
    >>>    this.

    Ha, Ha, Ha, I wouldn't count on it.  This would only happen if it
    is PROVED that there is a VERY serious problem.  At this point,
    it is still pure speculation.  The wait-and-see attitude is not
    very comforting prospect.
    
    
    							-Paul
     
    

    Re: .7
    
    Yes, the label surface of CDs is coated with lacquer.  Actually,
    the lacquer is applied over the aluminum information layer, and
    the label painted over that.  I am skeptical but this later
    clarification is a bit more believeable.  I'm not ready to panic
    yet.
    
    				Steve

    Re .4 and BACKUP. Lets hope DAT arrives sooner than later!
    
    Richard
    

Re: < Note 1243.10 by LARVAE::BRIGGS "They use computers don't they?" >

>   Re .4 and BACKUP. Lets hope DAT arrives sooner than later!


    Why? We KNOW that DAT is going to degrade with time! We only think
    CDs might if we don't all go out and buy the gold ones. (Better
    yet, maybe somebody is going to come out with a gas-filled
    "environment" that the CDs can be stored in!)

    My answer to this problem if it is one is that if my 150+ cd collection
    degrades a CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT AGAINST RECORD COMPANIES WILL FOLLOW!!
    

    re: .12
    
    That's an interesting thought.  I wonder if this conference has
    enough members to launch it's own class action suit, should that
    prove to be a good idea...
    
    ;-)
    
    B

    RE: .12
    
    Ha! Ha! Ha!  Where is it written that record companies GUARANTEE that
    CDs are PERFECT?  You don't have a hope in hell of winning a lawsuit
    against a major record company, just because the aluminum flakes off
    of your CD after 10 years!?!  Please keep this fight out of our
    already over burdened court system.  The cost that record companies
    pay for insurance will surely be passed onto the consumer.
    
    If you can GENUINELY prove that your CD's are deteriorating with age,
    contact the record company.  In the interest of keeping you as a
    customer, the may elect to send you a free replacement your CD.
    
    Don't Panic!
    
    
    							-Paul
     
    
    

    
    Re: .14
    
    Why shouldn't we panic???  Well, not *actually PANIC* but hey, the
    record industry and the electronics manufacturers have never shown
    great kindnesses to me....
    
    I stil own a pile of quad equipment and software from the 1970s
    and over 100 prerecorded reel to reels....priced a reel to reel
    machine lately??  Mine is close to 15 years old now and will be
    out to pasture soon...
    
    I expect that all the major manufacturers will pooh-pooh this because
    otherwise:
    
    1.  They will be holding the bag on all their inventory, that's
    lots of money.
    
    2.  Even if they don't have lawsuits brought against them, they
    will have seriously eroded public confidence, which will cause a
    slackening in sales.
    
    Note that the key words in the article are "many", "some", "common";
    Nimbus is not saying that every disk is affected....what I want
    to know is how come this didn't turn up earlier.  Now that CD-ROM
    is a hot item (with HP and Sony pushing it heavily) it affects more
    than just us listeners.  I expect to see a lot of controversy in the
    technical press over the next few months.
    
    Coincidentally, I just sold my player in preparation to buy another
    one.   Maybe I'll wait a few months and enjoy my LP collection some
    more   8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    

    Re: .15
    
    I agree with both points 1 & 2.
    
    I read in this morning's VNS that Papers in England are carrying
    articles about this problem.  I'll bet that USA today has a story
    on CD decay soon.
    
    Since Numbus also makes gold CDs I wonder if perhaps there advanced
    aging studies were biased.
    
    Martin H.

    
    Hmmm.  I've got a fairly large collection.  I'm not really surprised,
    though.  Nothing is forever.
    
    I like CDs because they're a better way to have music in the house
    than LPs or tapes.  If they start to wear out, that'll be too bad,
    but oh, well.
    
    I don't think I have a single disc manufactured by Nimbus, though.
    As for "garishly colored inks" I can't think of any that would be
    so described.  The vast majority of them are done in basic black.
    
    I'm not too familiar with the newspapers of the UK.  What's The
    Guardian like?  Is it a Wall Street Journal type, or a Boston Herald
    type (a sensationalist tabloid)?
    
    DFW

    If one reads the fine print on CD's they state that in effect that
    the CD's will last a lifetime. I will sue and the overcrouded courts
    are NOT a concern to me! I have too much invested in my collection
    to sit back and let them mislead me and the public with FALSE claims.
    People have to fight back at GREEDY companies. 

    The Guardian is a well respected newspaper, certainly not comparable
    with some of the british yellow press.
    
    The same article was published in today's 'S�ddeutsche Zeitung'
    (one of the most well respected newspapers in Germany). Additionally,
    they had asked Polygram and some other German manufacturers. they
    didn't deny the existence of a problem; they said that they _now_
    use UV-hardened lacquer and different type of print colors for
    the label (all this only since roughly a year or so) after having
    realised that there might be problems.
    
    Whether the early CDs really develop a problem, remains to be seen,
    according to them. (Note that Nimbus used some accelerated test
    methods).
    

    RE: .19

    
>    The same article was published in today's 'S�ddeutsche Zeitung'
>    (one of the most well respected newspapers in Germany). Additionally,
>    they had asked Polygram and some other German manufacturers. they
>    didn't deny the existence of a problem; they said that they _now_
>    use UV-hardened lacquer and different type of print colors for
>    the label (all this only since roughly a year or so) after having
>    realised that there might be problems.

    Do you know which German manufacturers have been using the UV-hardened
    lacquer?


>    Whether the early CDs really develop a problem, remains to be seen,
>    according to them. (Note that Nimbus used some accelerated test
>    methods).
    
    LCD displays were supposed to fade after almost six years in accelerated
    tests, due to oxidation, but in reality, they seem to last a lot longer...


    -- Tim

    

    Hmmmm What exactly is accelerated testing?? Is that sorta like
    medical testing, where there ain't a rat alive today, that eat
    two pounds of salt, drank 50 cups of coffee, chain smoked 3 packs
    of camels, and was an air traffic controller doing double shifts
    EVERY day??? I won't panic just yet....  ;^)
    
                   Wayne

    re .20: If I remeber correctly, they talked to Polygram (Hanover)
    and another manufacturer here in Munich whose name escapes me now.
    
    The impression I got was that _everyone_ (at least in Germany)
    is using UV-hardened lacquers.
    

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 1603               Friday  1-Jul-1988            Circulation :  6015 

VNS MAIN NEWS:                            [Richard De Morgan, Chief Editor, VNS]
==============                            [Basingstoke, England                ]

    Here is the News at 07:30 BST on 1-Jul-1988
    -------------------------------------------
	.
	.
	.
    Science, Technology, Medicine, and Nature
    -----------------------------------------

    The Guardian [article] about compact disks being corroded by the ink used
    to label some brands has been denied by representatives of leading
    manufacturers: they say this did occur in pre-production versions,
    but was corrected.
	
	.
	.
	.
<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1603      Friday  1-Jul-1988   <><><><><><><><>

    
    Remember that England is the country that brought you Ivor Linn
    and is the official world headquarters of the rabidly analogue.
    I don't plan on getting too worked up about this report until
    harder information starts appearing in places other than some
    SZ pickup article.
    
    Will
    
    

Re: .12 et seq., class action suit discussion.

Manufacturers do not state an explicit warranty of durability; but the 
fine print does, as pointed out, imply great, if not infinite, life. 
Advertising has referred to CDs as the "forever" medium since they first
appeared on the market.  False advertising, even without proven intent
to defraud, is usually punishable. 

And there are, in many states of the US, laws relating to an implied
warranty of merchantability.  In the case of CDs, which *do* work at
least when they are new, this point may not be at issue; but then again 
it might, if the discs can be shown not to perform properly by virtue of 
"wearing out" when they are claimed not to.

I haven't panicked, not yet - but as for this conference's having enough
members to file a class action, there need be only a single person to
file on behalf of others who may or may not be named.  And I think, all 
things considered, that there would be no problem amassing literally 
*thousands* of signatures should they be desired.

- Dick

    I agree with an earlier comment, nothing is forever, to believe such
    hyperbolae as advertisers saying that something will last forever puts
    you in the same class as those tourists buying the bridge... 
    
    Admittedly I have a small collection in comparison to some folks
    here, but the 80 or so that sit upon my shelf are viewed in the
    same light as my 500 LP's and 300 cassettes.
    
    Realistically my tastes will change and I'll be playing old recordings
    less (or even throwing them away!) so if they deteriorate, I may
    never notice.
    
    - Andy

    I heard on the radio that given the current techniques for
    manufacturing, only 1% - 2% of CDs will show ANY deterioration
    after 10 years.  The oxidation problem might stamp out any
    fly-by-night CD makers since their quality control will be
    much lower...
    
    				-John

    Given the cost of manufacturing plant for these, 'fly-by-night'
    operators would seem improbable to me...
    
    Edward Greenfield, the classical music journo of the Guardian, wrote
    on Saturday that when he read the reports, he ran into his study
    to carefully listen to some of the very first CD's he had, which
    are pre-production review copies at least 5 years old - he could
    discern no problems.
    
    It does seem suspicious that Nimbus publicise this problem - then
    go on to announce their CD's won't deteriorate.
    
    Andy

    
    
      I would love to hear "last forever" defined in a court of law.
    Fine print being what it may, I can't find anything that defines
    a CD's durability listed in any measurable way. I don't think the
    record companies owe us an "infinite" lifetime for 15 bucks. Nothing
    (not even YOU) last forever, enjoy them while you can.
    
     Tb

RE: .29

At least in the U.S., there is a concept called common law warranty.  If the
manufacturer of a product does not expressly provide a limited warranty, then by
default he is obliged to replace or repair the product free of charge if it
ever breaks down during normal use.  There is no time limit on the common law
warranty.

Given this, I think that a court would find that "last forever" is defined as
precisely that--forever.

--PSW

I'm not sure about "forever", but at least some of my CDs have booklets saying
that "if you always hold the CD by the edges and place it in its case when you
are through playing it, it will require no further cleaning", etc. and "if you
follow these suggestions, the Compact Disc will provide you with a lifetime of
pure listening enjoyment."

One person made a comment to the effect that because CDs "only" cost $15, you
can't expect them to last very long.  I'd like to point out that if you go to
the nearest Sears hardware department, you can find numerous tools which cost
less than $15 and come with an explicit lifetime warranty.

    
    I'm sure when the record companies stated " a lifetime of enjoyment
    " they meant the lifetime of the disk. Whatever length of time that
    is. Never have I read that a disk will last "forever". 
    
    jm/
    

    
    re. 31   "Explicit Lifetime Warranty" is the key phrase. Manufacturers
           who grant them are very specific on the terms. All CD
           manufacturers have given you is some gray statements, with
           I am sure nothing else implied. 15 dollar power tools break
           as well, under standard use and accelerated testing. The
           difference is that Sears is willing to give you another one.
           I don't think that all this hoopla indicates that every CD
           we own is mysteriously going to crash after "an extended
           life", I think what they are preparing people for is 
           the inevitable fallout that willl occur as the disks begin
           to age.
    
           Tb
     

    re .33 Just so no one goes out and buys loads of Sears power tools
    	-- the Unlimited Lifetime Warranty is only on HAND tools,
    	not power tools.

        This whole schmozzle appears to have been started by a COmpany
        called Mobile Fidelity, who make/sell Gold and Silver Based
        CDs. They incorrectly said that Standard CDs have a 'gap' that
        will allow air to get between the plastic and the aluminium
        and cause oxidization. This problem was noticed by phillips
        some 5-6 years ago and the design of the media was changes.
        The number of CD's affected is incredibly small, as the technology
        hadn't really caught at that stage. This is described by CD
        Manufacturers as an "Urban Myth".
        
        Check out CDROM::CD_reader note 59.1 for comments.
        
        q
        

    Wait a minute...
    
    I thought the music was contained on the bottom side of the CD,
    aren't most CD's only 'inked' on the top???  The ink will have to
    eat through the lacquer AND the disk to get to the music, right?
    That should take a LONG time...

    I believe the thin aluminum layer which stores the information is
    actually very close to the top of the CD.  90% of the thickness
    of the CD is the clear plastic that the laser reads through, from
    the bottom, to get to the pits near the top.  The reason for having
    the laser read through the thickness of the disk is that scratches
    on the bottom (playing side) of the disk will be out of focus when
    the lens focuses on the pits.  I'm kind of surprised that the ink
    can affect the aluminum anyway, since I would assume there is at
    least a thin layer of plastic to protect it.
    

    Franz Sch�ler, a well-known West German HiFi expert and journalist, had
    an epilogue on this story (in the S�ddeutsche Zeitung). (He's pretty
    well respected and usually well informed). 
    
    According to him, the only company known to have had serious problems
    with CD quality (in this respect) has been Nimbus...
    

    re :-1
    
    Nimbus is maybe not the only one.
    
    I recently bought few Narada CDs and 2 of them kept jumping as it
    was going toward the edge.   I have over 150 cds and only those
    2 were skipping.   I have tryed on different player and they were
    not skipping, but I can't put the fault on my player, since they
    are the only disc skipping.
    
    I got them exchanged no problem, but I ask myself about Narada
    quality?.  Note that I tried cleaning etc.. No visible defect
    were showing.
    
     Is it CD rot? I can't answer but...  
    
    Just a warning.
    
    Vince.

    
    An aside to the base note:
    
    Mr. Michael Lee stated that CDs have a shelf life of 8 years, widely
    pooh-poohed by other manufacturers.
    
    Mr. Lee himself has had a shorter shelf life, he died this year!
    
    

    For a thorough listing of the arguments, I refer you to the Oct.
    '88 issue of Digital Audio & Compact Disc Review.  In the column
    "The First Word" is the story of the Guardian interview - and the
    replies by the industry: Philips, EMI, Shape Optimedia, Philips/
    DuPont Optical, Sony and Mobile Fidelity.  Also, there is a retraction
    by Nimbus, who claims that their own CDs are guaranteed for 100
    (!!!) years.
    
    Of the industry comments, I find the most interesting the claim
    from Philips that their original prototype discs - now 15 years
    old - show no signs of quality loss after severe environmental
    tests and artificial aging.  
    
    Just for the record (no pun intended), how about using this file
    to see who has the oldest (and hopefully still working) compact
    disc?  My oldest is a mid-1986 Alabama "Mountain Music" - I'm
    sure most of you folks have older ones than that!
    
    						--Eric--

    
    I have two CDs from CBS Japan, Miles' "Man With The Horn" and Weather
    Report's "Night Passage" both of which were shipped over by Sony
    with the first wave of CD players....that's what, 83?
    
    I got them last year from a dealer going out of business.  They
    had been marked down from $25 (those were the days, eh?) to $5.

    

I still have no problems with the first CDs I bought in November 1984:

The Doors (1st album)
Pink Floyd - Meddle
             Dark Side Of The Moon
Jethro Tull - Aqualung
Cream - Disreali Gears
King Crimson - In The Court Of The Crimson King
Holst - The Planets

All of these have been played *many* times, and "Meddle" was the one
I mentioned in a previous note where I polished out a big gouge.

This was back in the days when everything was made either in Japan
by Sony, or in Germany by Polydor.

Scott

	I don't remember exactly, but I think my first CD was
	"Asia" that I bought in 1983.

    I just read that the resin used in the current CD market (Lexan)
    has bee nimproved and will offer better opitcal purity and be more
    impact resistant. The article also noted that the cost of the improved
    Lexan will remain the same.

    Stiggy

    I have about 20 CD's from 82-84, most of the polydor, all of them
    play. titles include: some Dylan, some Doors, Pink Floyd, Steely
    Dan, Bowie,etc. I bought them in Jan 85 from a friend who was in the
    Air Force, stationed in Germany.
    
    doug