Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

    Does the tag line at the bottom of the ad say "North American Philips"?
    
    Seems to me that I heard something about Philips (Netherlands)
    regaining control of NAP -- they spun them off due to WW II, and 
    for the last 40 years (+/-) have been getting more and more annoyed
    about NAP's independent/renegade tendencies.  
    
    dq

    The ad (on pages 25-27 of the November Digital Audio) says:
    
    	N.A.P. Consumer Electronics Corp. A North American Philips
    	Company.
    
    The ad text refers to "Philips of the Netherlands".  The CD player
    they show is the CD 960 which, from the front panel, includes the
    FTS feature.
    				Steve

In a recent Stereophile article, they referred to a Phillips CD player
made by a Phillips subsidiary in Japan that was not available in the US
(that was the only Phillips unit they knew of that was really solidly
built).  I believe the model number is 960.  The player pictured in the
NAP ad in Video magazine had that same model number, I believe, so one
might speculate that the high-end, Japanese-made Phillips might be
imported under the Phillips label, whereas the plastic stuff will still
carry the Magnavox label. 

Just a guess.

Alex

    
    	One   l   
    

RE: .3

More from Stereophile:

The 960 is made by Marantz of Japan.  Outside the US, Marantz is an arm 
of Phillips.  The cost is something like $1100, and the reviewer was 
not all that impressed with the sound for the money.  At the present 
time, it appears that they think that the best rock-bottom priced CD is 
one of the Magnavox $200 jobs, and that at the next price level, you 
need to consider a Denon 1500 or a Sony 505, both at about $600.  They 
have not reviewed the new Denon 800 at $380.  They imply that the Sony 
and Denon do as well or better than those modified Maggies priced at 
about $600.  The Sony players apparently have the best bass.

So I believe that means they would prefer either the Denon or the Sony 
over the Phillips 960, with a $500 savings to boot.

Alex

Well, I've heard the Denon, Sony 505 and modified Magnavox, but not in the 
sameroom as an unmodified Magnavox.  I found the high end very unnatural 
sounding on the Denon and Sony, which killed them for me as far as playing 
jazz and folk CD's.  But that's only my opinion, based on the way I listen 
to music from my own live listening and playing experiences.

As for North American Philips, I believe that's what Norelco is.  Or maybe 
Norelco is just another subsidiary, like Magnavox and Marantz.

I would not trust a major manufacturer for high-end equipment in general.  
When I upgraded my stereo earlier this year, I went to practically every 
store in the area, and quickly determined that the point of diminishing 
returns is usually reached very quickly with the major manufacturers.  I 
ended up spending LESS on lesser-known American specialty companies for 
products that are of superior quality, workmanship and reliability and 
vastly cheaper prices.  If I were to upgrade from the bottom-end Magnavox 
CD player, I would likely do the same.

I have not heard them yet, but there are at least four CD players out there 
from smaller manufacturers that supposedly integrate the best aspects of the 
Sony and Philips designs.  ADCOM's is under $500; the others are closer to 
$1000.  These manufacturers generally put quality above features, and depend 
on word-of-mouth vs. grandstand marketing strategies.  But their equipment 
isn't for everybody, of course.

Just be aware that these new high-end players coming out are likely high-priced 
because of more features or similar reasons, and aren't necessarily any better 
sounding that the low-end models.  For some people, though, the features alone 
are worth the extra money.


				Mark

RE: .6

Thanks for the information.  I had already narrowed my CD decision down
to Denon (DCD 800 with 4x oversampling) at about $380 versus one of the
Magnavox units (e.g., 580 at $200 or the 460 for $150 at Sears--I don't
need the FTS stuff).  I don't need any particular features at all, not 
even remote control. 

Clearly the mechanical feel of the Denon is better than the Magnavox.  
But I can purchase an extended warranty on either unit (and plan to due
to the problems with the current Sony CD, which is why I am looking). 
So the difference in quality should not be that big a factor, right?  
Or is there some other factor to consider?

The big question is the sound. (My system is mid-fi with Yamaha
electronics and small Snell speakers.) I have not found any store that
sells both Magnavox and Denon.  Is it a fair statement that you believe
that the sound from the Denon is not worth the extra money?  Should I
plan to spend less now on an unmodified Maggie, and upgrade in 5 years
or so when things have settled out better? 

I am not prepared to spend much more than $400 right now, and would 
just as soon spend $200 less unless there is good reason to believe I 
am getting good value for the extra bucks for a Denon.

Any opinions appreciated.

Thanks,

Alex

As I thought more, I realised I might have gotten two companies screwed up.  I 
often do that with companies from whom I have never purchased equipment.  The 
two companies I often confuse are NEC and Denon.  It is possible that the unit 
I heard was NEC and not Denon, especially as it had 2x oversampling vs. 4x 
oversampling.

I would still be skeptical, though, as I have found that even Nakamichi doesn't
give much bang for the buck at the high end.  The ADCOM is cheaper than the 
Denon you are considering.  As much as I hate Natural Sound, I need to go 
there tonight for information shopping, and I plan to check out the ADCOM CD 
player if they have it (or the Rotel or Tandberg).  They had not yet gotten 
one in the last time I was there.  And Goodwin's in Harvard Sq. doubtless has 
even lesser-known brands, though probably in the $1K range (the ADCOM is the 
only "budget" high fidelity CD player I have heard about, other than the 
Magnavox itself).


				Mark

    In the new Stereo Discounters catalog, there is YET ANOTHER series
    of Magnavox players -- 47x.  If I recall right:  471 is bare bones,
    472 adds FTS, 473 adds remote control.  There was also a CDB-650
    MK II.
    
    Don't know exactly what to make of this -- they look like the old
    CDB series from the catalog cuts.

    
    North American Philips is indeed a spin-off of Philips of the
    Netherlands, this done in the early 1940's to keep the US assets
    of the Dutch company out of the hands of the Fuehrer.
    
    NAP is about 50.1% owned by Philips, the rest is traded on the NYSE.
    
    NAP in turn owns about 30 +/- 5 US companies, including Magnavox
    (there are a few divisions with the name for consumer elec./defense),
    Norelco, part or all of Sylvania, the Selmer Instrument Company
    (tubas, saxes), various chemical companies, various electronic
    component companies, and a defense subsidiary that makes things
    like Sonobouys for the US Navy.
    
    I worked for these folks for awhile about 7-8 years ago, in the
    corporate finance and planning function. They weren't renegade
    so much as stodgy and conservative. Philips does a lot of the
    engineering, NAP alot of its own manufacturing. My impression was
    they did few things well and looked mostly at their businesses as
    a portfolio to be traded possibly, milked possibly, and not invested 
    in certainly. Defense and the electronic components business kept 
    everything else afloat.
                           
    Management at the Operating Companies (for example, Magnavox Consumer
    Electronics) does its own thing-- unless they need a spare $500M
    for a plant or something. Philips stays out of everyone at NAP's
    hair in much the same way. It really is an arms length relationship.
    
    Trivia for what its worth.
    
      jc