Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

	Columbia is now promoting a "Columbia Jazz Masterpieces"
	series, digitally remastered versions of the best of their
	jazz albums. They are releasing newly remastered versions of
	some disks which had already been out on CD, such as Miles'
	"Kind of Blue" (and Dave Brubeck's "Time Out"). I'm curious if
	anyone has heard both the old and new versions of these disks
	and can comment on whether there's a noticeable improvement.
	If someone in MKO has bought the new version of one of those
	two disks perhaps we can do a side-by-side comparison.
	
	More to the point of .0, "Kind of Blue" (one of the first
	disks I bought) - is some of the greatest music ever recorded
	and the sound (other than a fairly high level of hiss) is very
	good. An incidental criticism is that the informative liner
	notes by Bill Evans are absent. Hopefully the new version will
	correct the oversight.

	I'm curious about Bitches' Brew myself.
	
	Mike

I bought the remastered versions of both "Bitches' Brew" and
"Time Out" (I had been warned off the earlier release of the
Brubeck as well). Hiss is not a problem.

WK

    re:.2
    
    I hate to tell you this, but the "earlier release" of TIME OUT
    was digitally remastered as well. I have it, and hiss is not a
    problem on mine. I think it sounds terrific. Some people have
    said that they hear a distortion in the bass on it, but I haven't
    noticed.
    
    --- jerry

	Both "Time Out" and "Kind of Blue" were digitally mastered in
	their original releases on CD's.
	
	I borrowed a copy of the "new" "Kind of Blue" (thanks Julie!)
	- it has a *very* different sound. On the obvious plus side,
	the hiss is significantly reduced. But, it also has a much
	duller sound, and generally didn't sound as good to me. Two
	disclaimers - I'm not someone that considers sound extremely
	important and I rarely listen closely to the sound (I'm more
	concerned with the music), maybe a more demanding listener
	would come to a different conclusion. Also, I'm used to the
	sound of the original release and my negative reaction may
	simply be because it sounded "different". But, in support of
	my own conclusion, the person I borrowed the disk from heard
	both versions in a store and also preferred the original
	release.
	
	So, if you bought the original release, don't worry about
	missing something with the new release! Well, except for the
	liner notes which were originally missing... And the different
	cover picture...
	
	Mike

    I just picked up "Kind of Blue" this weekend at Lechmere (at that big
    mall in Nashua NH for 15% off).  The sound quality is excellent! In
    fact it is soo good that I am considering getting the later "Time Out"
    to compare with my 2-year old (rather hissy) copy.  Has anyone compared
    the two versions of "Time Out"? 

    
    	Generally I've found Columbia's "digitally remastered" discs
    to be a lose. I have originals (20+ years old) of "Take Five", "Bitches
    Brew", and "Kind of Blue", so I A/B'd with some friends's copies
    ( I REALLY want the Coltrane and Goodman re-releases!)
    
    The new releases are harsh and sizzly by comarision with the old
    ones, and have been EQ'd for thin bass and bright highs. Sound is
    "shrink-wrapped".
    
    If you can find the original LP's at a used record store - buy them!
    
    				-eric
    

    
    Finally got one of the remastered Miles CDs, "Sketches of Spain".
    
    I have no qualms about recommending this to anyone, whether they
    like jazz or not!
    
    For a 27 year old recording, this sounds absolutely incredible. 
                                                        
    I haven't listened with phones yet, but the hiss seems to be
    well-controlled....I didn't notice any over the speakers (yes, I
    know it *must* be there).
    
    There was a little harshness in spots which I think is more due
    to my *speakers* than anything else.
    
    Now, I can't wait to get the other three titles!
    
    BTW, I never owned a record of this so I can't A/B but I can't imagine
    the pre-digital vinyl sounding better than this.

>    Now, I can't wait to get the other three titles!

	Just curious, which three titles are you refering to?
	Gil Evans and Miles Davis collaborated on "Miles Ahead",
	"Porgy and Bess" and "Sketches of Spain". I haven't seen
	the "Miles Ahead" CD but the other two are available at
	20% off (from 15.99) at Lechmere for this week. Other
	Miles' releases that they had were "Bitches Brew",
	"Kind of Blue", "In a Silent Way", and "Tutu". Not having
	the original albums I'm not in a position to do any 
	comparisions, but the sound on SoS, PaB, KoB, IaSW was
	very good when you consider that the recordings were
	made in the 50's and 60's.

	Enjoy,
	Sudhir

     Re: -.8
    
    The "other three" are the other Miles remasters from Columbia; Kind
    of Blue, In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew.

Again, the CD might be different, but my "Kind of Blue" LP is a DISASTER!  
Adderly and Coltrane are mixed dead centre on "Freddie Freeloader", upper 
frequencies are clipped to the point that the cymbals and hi-hat decay 
practically as soon as they are struck, and the saxes are pretty much pushed 
into the background.  The original sounds like it could have been recorded 
yesterday, when played on a good turntable.  I played it last night and was 
AMAZED at how modern it sounded.

As for these stories (in general) of being able to hear things on the CD that 
"weren't on the record", I hear them all the time on my new turntable.  I do 
not wish to start up a CD vs. vinyl war, I just would like it if people could 
keep things in perspective.  The point of CD technology is increased S/N.  
Clarity of detail is a function of the hardware you're playing the material 
back on.  This isn't a reaction to this note, but rather to reviews I'm always 
reading in magazines.  When I played Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance" on my new 
turntable last night, I distinctly heard Joe Morello counting out loud during 
the entire piece, along with various mumblings from other band members.  At 
that time, there wasn't much of a precedent, so 7/8 time was hard to feel.  
Anyway, a reviewer would say something like "one could even hear the musicians 
talking in the background on the CD, which wasn't present on the vinyl".

Anyway, the point of all of this is that I don't approve of the motivation 
behing the CBS discs.  Remixing is justified if the equipment originally used 
to mix the master introduced problems that weren't present on the original 
two-track or four-track master tapes, and if modern equipment (either analog 
or digital) can correct this problem.  But CBS is clearly remixing for the 
sake of cashing in on digital-mania, giving little thought to what is actually 
musical.  This is ever more surprising since Ted Macero (CBS' main jazz 
producer) seems to be directly involved in the remastering effort.


				Mark

    
    re .7 I have the LP. It is far cleaner than the remastered CD.
    
    re .10 I agree. I keep hearing things on my new turntable that never
    show up on either my old table or CD. S/N and detail seem to be
    completely different phenomena (phono-mena?).
    
    And the CBS Digital remasters of Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, and
    John Coltrane are terrible! I have originals of some of them, and
    even through the rice-krispies (played on dime-store record players,
    one of which even had a ceramic cartridge!) on some of them, the
    music, pace, tone, and sound still comes through better.
    

    I bought "Kind of Blue" at Lechmere's jazz CD sale and played it
    last night.  I don't have the LP, but I didn't notice any of the
    problems mentioned in .10.  I would have liked the bass to be a
    bit more forward, but that's the only qualm I had about the sound.
    And the music is excellent!

Well, Michael, I guess someone who couldn't do an A/B test might be pleased 
with the new version.  Hard to say.  I played mine for someone who had never
heard it before, period, and they didn't think it had any rhythm.  They were
bored stiff.  Then I put on the earlier version, and they practically got
up and started dancing!

Of course, you have the CD.  I won't have a CD player for another few weeks,
though I now have about a dozen CD's due to all the stuff that isn't coming
out in any other form (plus The Beatles CD's, which I can always sell if I'm
not happy with them once I hear them on a good player).  So, I'm not really
at a point yet where I can truly judge the quality of CD's coming out.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether CBS, and other companies, are 
deliberately degrading the sound quality of their records to "prove" that
CD's are "better", in a last desparate attempt to get people (common people,
not us folks at Digital who can afford CD habits to some degree) to make the
final switch from vinyl to disc.

Obviously, I'm not putting down your ears.  If you had bad ears, you wouldn't
be such a good trumpet player!  I'm just curious as to whether the CD's and 
LP's in this new Masterworks JAZZ series are really different, or whether we
just had different listening contexts (and histories) for hearing the same
recording.

It does sound very clean, though.  "So What" isn't so bad, really.  The one 
that REALLY got me was "Freddie Freeloader".  A few of the Brubeck cuts I heard
weren't bad either.  But in EVERY case, the cymbals are clipped, and this more
often than not removes the rhythmic pulse, which is the way I listen to jazz.


				Mark