Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

Brand: Sony     Model: D-7
Features:  Compact, Power on/off, Headphone Volume, Programmable for 16
	   selections, AMS (Automatic Music Search)
Supplied with:  Battery pack(4 hours of play per charge), AC adapter,
		carrying case and strap, cable for hook-up to stereo

Opinion/review:

  Welp, I have had it with my D-7!  3 Strikes and it's out!

  A brief story...I first purchased the D-7 this spring and when I brought it
  home the CD's would scrape on the inside housing leaving plastic shavings
  inside the player(I put a note|reply in here about the problem).  So I brought
  it back and exchanged it.  Well, the second one scraped ever-so-slightly and
  only on certain disks so I figured I could live with it for a little while
  or until they made a few thousand more.  So sure enough it got worse and I
  brought to the exchange warehouse, Lechmere, and got another one.  Comparing
  the inside of the newer one, SN#250000, to the older one, SN#51000, I noticed
  they did an ECO on the inside housing.  Sure enough that did the trick, it
  didn't scrape anymore!  All CD's worked!  Now the player won't play!  The
  servo moves the reader out to the disk for about 4 seeks then shuts down!

  Grrrr!  I have had it with the D-7 and have decided to purchase a table-top
  rather than a compact.  Although I haven't lost faith in Sony as a
  manufacturer I have lost faith in the D-7.

  As for a review, the product is well thought out.  I haven't had a CD with
  more than 16 selections to select from so programmablility was great.  AMS
  allows you to fast-forward or rewind thru the selection(s) while you can
  still listen to it.  It has a battery indicator that flashes when the battery
  is low.  Indicator panel can display time remaining or time elapsed.

  The sound was crisp and clear.  I feel without modifying the output with
  treble or bass it was heavy on the treble and light on the bass so I would
  have to compensate by turning up the bass.

  Overall it was a very nice unit when it worked properly.

Price:  249.99 on sale a Cuomo's

    
    This note strikes me as redundant, given that the bulk of this
    conference has to do with "what CD players people have".  There's
    a ton of discussion on every conceivable make and model, including
    some notes such as "CD players that work", etc. which consist of
    product listings.  I humbly suggest that you do some research in
    the Conference.

RE: < Note 526.2 by NATASH::WEIGL "breathum via turbo - ergo faster" >
    
> I humbly suggest that you do some research in the Conference.
That is exactly what started this note!  It is very frustrating getting
a directory of this conference then picking note-by-note for player
notes, then reading the player notes only to find rat-holes or unended
differences of opinion/disputes.  I am creating this note so that owners
of players can put a short and sweet description of their player and how
it makes them happy or unhappy w/o getting into rat-holes or unended
differences of opinion/disputes from others.  If another person has the
same machine but has had different experiences then they could add their
information the same way without disputing a previous noters entry.

> There's a ton of discussion on every conceivable make and model, including
>  some notes such as "CD players that work", etc. which consist of
>  product listings.
I looked thru this note and starting with the Yamaha CD-X1 thru Ward's note
about "no matter how many lemons, someone has one that works" or something
like that to the reply stating "I have every CD player built and they all work
without a problem".  I didn't find it much help.  I don't have fact sheets
in front of me to tell me what the unit they are happy with is.  Yes,
there is a ton but it also takes a ton of time to wade thru it.  All I am
suggesting here is for noters to enter a short and sweet description of the
product and their experiences with it.  If the reader wants more info, they
can send MAIL to the noter OR add a note.

> This note strikes me as redundant, given that the bulk of this
>  conference has to do with "what CD players people have".
I agree that this note can be interpreted as redundant.  But, only as redundant
as the other 68 or so that I found that had noters looking for information
and some not receiving any response.


I can understand your point of view it used to be mine when I wasn't looking
for a player, but now that I am, searching thru this file can take hours
and hours; I have work to do.  So, I proposed this note for the entry
of product information.  It won't stop the entry of "I need a player,
and am confused." notes but will provide a note that only contains replies
that have a users experience about their machine, the particulars of their
machine and all in one convenient(SP) note.

Dan
ISWISS::ARVIDSON
DTN 223-5257

    I have a Sony CDP55.  I didn't do much research before buying it
    but person across the aisle from me bought one at the same time
    and he did the research.  Since the purchase I have read several
    favorable reviews on the player.  It has features of being able
    to play selections in any order and "shuffle" play (plays selections
    in random order).  Has remote control which I haven't found to be
    all that useful.  Last but certainly not least, sounds great to
    me and that's why I bought it.

	Being in the market for a portable myself, I tend to agree with
	.0 with regards to searching the entire file for info on
	products.  However, the last thing that's important to me is the
	opinion of someone I've never met on what is a good stereo
	product. 

	In addition, finding favorable reviews after the fact as .4 has
	is the rule.  Our brains tend to filter out data that indicates
	we just spent money on a turkey, especially when we are
	satisfied.  It's only later after the unit starts gobbling that
	we start paying attention to the bad news.  And by the way, when
	that happens, we start to filter out the good news. 

	When I'm ready to buy, I'm going to go out, with a price range in
	mind, and listen to a few products, and buy what sounds best to
	me.  If I want specs, I read a book.  If I want hype, I read the
	ads. 

	What I WOULD like to hear about is gripes and problems that
	people have had with products, manufacturers and dealers.  Let me
	know up front what the bad news is, before I turn on my filters. 

						     
							- JP

    This isnt a product recomendation or condemnation as requested in
    the base note, but it does relate to sources of information to help
    you make a choice.
    
    One of the problems with judging the sonic virtues of any product,
    is that it must be judged against its peers (comparing it to live
    music is fine from a descriptive sense, but the choice is usually
    between brand X and Brand Y, not Brand X and the BSO).  This implies
    familarity with more than one brand for more than a few seconds
    in a hifi shop, before comparisons are meaningful (particularly
    since the component spotlited here - CD players - are near or beyond
    the sonic limits of many systems).
    
    The most value someone could add in these notes, given that their
    comparative experience (between brand x and y) is limited, is some
    info on the pluses and minuses of the unit they chose (including
    problems, 'features (software PR for bugs)', and well you get the
    idea).
    
    I read a magazine loaned to me recently, which produces special
    'buyer guide' issues aimed at specific products.  The publication
    is British and called HiFi Choice (actually I think the 'HiFi' part
    is constant but the 'Choice' part changes to suit the purpose of
    the magazine - its put out by Haymarket publications I think). They
    put out an edition with very extensive coverage of Compact Disc 
    players.  These reviewers do some bench tests, and comment on
    construction and features, but their strong suit seems to be honest
    critiques of the sound.  They dont go as far as TAS, (they keep each
    review down to 2 pages) describing phases of the moon etc., but
    the info they provide could certainly help a buyer narrow the choices
    down to a managable number of units before hitting the road.
    
    I felt this publication was the first I ever read which actually
    helps the buyer rather than tries to stimulate sales (after reading
    Stereophile and TAS again after several years I remembered why I
    stopped subscribing - those things make me salivate - very hard
    on the budget).
    
    Anyway, if you are in the market, I suggest you pick this one up.
    
    Since Mark K. loaned it to me I dont know exactly where to find it,
    but my guess is to look in the Harvard Square magazine stores.
    
    Walt

    Sony CDP35-  similar to .4's CDP55 except it's smaller in size and
    doesn't have a remote control.  I especially like it's displays
    and the "shuffle" play feature.  
    
    One display feature I like is when the unit is powered on, 20 led's, 
    numbered 1-20, light up.  Then, once a disc is inserted, only as many 
    led's stay lit as there are tracks on that disc.  Once a track is 
    played, a led will turn off.  At a glance, you can easily tell how 
    many tracks are on a particular disc and/or how many tracks are yet 
    to be played.  
    
    Another display feature I like is the time display.  Not only can
    it count up the seconds and minutes of each track, but it can count 
    down each track and it can also count down the total time of the
    disc, depending on which of these 3 modes you wish to have displayed.
    Also, when recording a 45 minute plus cd onto a 45 minute cassette
    tape, you can program the best arrangement of tracks to fit on the
    tape because the total time of the tracks will be displayed.  No
    more adding or subtracting, hoping that it all fits!
    
    The "shuffle" play feature is nice in that you never know what track 
    will be played next.  It takes the boredom out of listening to 
    favorite cd's.  Sure, the tracks can be easily programmed in a 
    particular order, but shuffle play gives a little spontaneity in 
    listening.  (Isn't spontaneity what everyone enjoys?!)
     
    Finally, as far as specs go, I compared the spec sheet for this
    player against the Magnavox 1051 that everyone praises for its specs,
    and they were similar.  The 1051 had it beat, but just barely. 
    However, I felt the quality and better features of the Sony was
    worth losing a db or 2.  For $179 (at Service Merchandise, on sale),
    it's a very good deal, especially with a medium priced stereo system. 

    Topics like this are a waste of time.  You're going to get comments
    like "unit xxx is a piece of ca-ca" and "no it's not, I bought xxx and
    it's great."  This topic will never be a statistically valid sample!
    As far as the "filtering" argument goes, I humbly suggest that fixing
    your filtering apparatus is a FAR more efficient way to get valid data
    on your past or future purchase.  If you can't be honest with yourself,
    then work on THAT problem!

    I agree that information on CD players is buried in this conference and
    is somewhat hard to get at.  But again, unless a particular model is a
    real (and I mean REAL) turkey, those notes aren't statistically valid
    either. 
    
    The best use of this conference is for general information and advice.
    The farthest I'd take things is to gather general impressions of brand
    names (e.g., "Is Radio Shack better than Denon?") 
    
    Another little bit of advice is: >You get what you pay for.<  I snicker
    a lot as I read this file and see people rushing to buy the CHEAPEST
    deck they can find ("The Monosonic xyz is on sale at Lechmere for only
    $88.93!!!") and then complain that the deck skips when their dog barks
    or an airplane flies overhead.  Yes, there's overpriced equipment out
    there (as there is in any field) but buying cheap is NEVER the way to
    go.  Buy the best you can and you'll be happier in the long run. 
    And, forget about the technology curve... get used to forever being
    unable to catch it and you will be a happer man/woman.  Besides,
    keep technology in perspective.  Noone on their deathbed ever said,
    "I never spent enough time with my CD player."

    RE: .8     
    
    < Topics like this are a waste of time...
    
    1.  If its such a waste of time why did you bother to reply ?
    
    2.  You gave an opinion that cheapest is ca-ca, in direct conflict
        to your insistance that such comments are statistically invalid
        in your first paragraph.
    
    3.  My opinion is: your opinion is ca-ca. (everyone knows about opinions
        dont we ?)

    Have a nice day :)
    
    Walt

    Dear Walt, 

    My first point was that asking a small pool of people about their CD
    player's error rates (failure rates, problem rates, etc.) was a bad
    idea. Before you reply that the e-net is enormous, consider that the
    question is really the pool of people who read this file and who will
    take the time to write in a reply. For every reply that says, "My D7
    gave me nothing but headaches", you will likely get someone who says,
    "gee, that's surprising. My D7 has been working just fine."  Now, what
    does that tell you?? 

    In addition, this has been tried before in this file (I forget the
    topic #) and we didn't get anywhere then either. 

    My comment about buying cheap and YGWYPF is not related to the above,
    and I am surprised that you think that it is. YGWYPF is based upon
    years of making purchases across a very wide range of products and
    prices.  Cars, calculators, games, houses, etc.  In addition, it's an
    axiom that has become part of our culture, so it of course isn't just
    my own opinion. 

    I fail to understand why you think that any criticism made of small,
    limited samples ("enter in your CD player and say how much you like
    it") must automatically apply to large samples (YGWYPF). 

    Since .8, .9, .10, and now .11 have nothing of value to add to the
    base note, and obviously you see no value in it (a very useful
    feature of the KP(,) key, is the ability to skip unteresting notes),
    I will remove my .9, .11 if you remove your .8, .10.  
    
    The note can then be of value to those who wish to take something from 
    it and ignored by those who do not. 

    Walt

    Rest-of-system: Crown PL3 amp, pioneer HPM-100 speakers (no speaker
             flames, please... I bought a new kitchen instead of new
             speakers.). Everything else doesn't get involved in the
             CD signal path (well, it MAY have some effect on the mains
             loading 8-})
    
    Mitsibishi DP-103:  Old, heavy, first-generation machine. Analog
             filtering. I've had it for about 3 years now with no
             problems, except that it sometimes needs two tries to 
             read the index of a disc. No programmability (well,
             skip and ff/fr).  Haven't found anything else a good enough
             price/sound to replace it. Wanna rip it apart and pooge
             pooge it.
    
             Cost $330 in the good old days.
    
    Magnavox CD9510: Portable. Programmable (16 track, I think). Has
             survived many 5-foot drops. Never had any problems. 
             Switching supply comes thru loud-and-clear on both the
             line and headphone outputs (well, it's probably about 
             55-60 dB down, but this IS a CD, after all!!). Power
             jack is non-standard (I have yet to find one, NAP has no
             idea who might have one or why they used that particular
             jack).
    
             Paid $180 about 6 months ago (I think... I tend to forget
             exactly when I bought something.. I think it's the process
             of rationalizing my purchase that fades my memory..)
    
    

re .8, .9, .10, and .11

You don't need to delete them - such well mannered discussions are a joy
to behold (such judicious use of ca-ca :-) :-) ....)

P.

p.s. Have I now added more ca-ca to the ca-ca ? Oh no, an endless loop ...

    RE: .8
    
    You get what you pay for - if you're lucky.
    
    
    					-Paul
    

    No, Walt, let us leave them.  Sleeping dogs should rest in peace,
    and perhaps someone may learn something from them.  Exactly what
    I am not sure of, but what the heck, it's only bits.

Back to...

>  I'd like to set this note up as a depository for brand, model, features,
>  likes/dislikes/wishes, your opinion/review of the product and price.  Please
>  don't reply to someone elses opinion directly, set-up a note or send mail
>  regarding your reply to their review.

I think it's really a good idea, as it was a *very* laborious process for me to
go through *this* notes file to gather some background when I was shopping
around for a CD. What I would suggest is that we keep this to "initial buyer
satisfaction" and "now that I've had it for 8 months to a year..." -- something
like what the car magazines do: road test, and then extended use report. If we
don't stick to one note, then we should stick the word "equipment", "player", or
"test" in the title so that the next poor person who comes along doesn't go
crazy trying to cull out notes and responses having to do with equipment.

Peters

How about:

  1)  1 topic per brand
  2)  "Help me fix this problem I'm having" gets its own note, preferably
      with the word "problem" somewhere in the title
  3)  Person submitting note in 2) submits note to 1) after problem is
      resolved giving recap of experience (good and bad) with equipment
      in question if it meets first impression or extended use time-periods, so
      it's either out-of-the-box-consumer awareness or an experience period
      that is long enough to form an opinion which covers both good and bad
      (an "objective" subjective opinion)

Peters

    CD players get out dated within a year or two.  After that, the
    technology changes enough so the players will be different, even
    between the same companies.  Now, it takes about that amount of
    time to determine the reliability of any given unit.  So, by the
    time you can determine whether or not a player is reliable or not,
    technology will have changed enough so you want something else anyway.
    
    So I'd tend to question the usefulness of a database with equipement
    people own.
    
    Kenney

>   CD players get out dated within a year or two.  After that, the
>   technology changes enough so the players will be different, even
>   between the same companies...

Then how about, "I've had it for a few months, and..." and also,
"I just changed my speakers/amp/pre-amp/cabling to xxx, and wow!..."
A lot of new noters look to this conference to form a base of
experience (albeit others') with which they can go out and be an
intelligent consumer -- at least to have some idea of where to start.
I know it's been a great help to me.

Petes

    With my tax refund I'm now ready to buy a CD player.  EASYNOTES
    tells me that this conference is the place to look and ask for
    advice.  After a bit of hunting, I come to this note -- 19 replies
    to the question "What CD player to buy?".  Lo and behold it's more
    of a ca-ca (ka-ka?) slinging contest than help in locating dealers
    and equipment that meet one's needs.
    
    I'm looking for a high quality feature-laden CD player.  I'd rather
    hear advice from fellow DECcies than stereo review mags, which don't
    tell you about dealers.  Any advice would be appreciated; by default
    it's off to Lechmere for their most expensive model...
    
      John

    Re: .20
    
    You don't say how much you're willing to spend, and without that,
    we can't offer much advice.  Lechmere is a particularly bad place
    to buy a player unless its on sale.
    
    In the under-$400 price range, I prefer the Sonys such as the
    CDP-203, CDP-510 (maybe too new) or CDP-55.  These have good
    combinations of features and sound quality.
    
    But the problem with asking us for advice is that we all have different
    opinions.  Some people aren't happy with $1500 players that have
    been heavily modified, others have a hard time telling the difference
    between any two models.  I feel that if you buy a brand known for
    quality (forget Magnavox, apparently), and get a model at least
    in the middle of their line, then you should not be disappointed.
    
    					Steve

re: 20

I agree with Steve.  Assuming you do not have golden ears the most important 
criteria you should use for selection is features and reliability vs. cost.
Decide what you want in features and then concentrate at looking at a set
of models in a price range.  For example Technics will offer similar features
to Sony for less money.  Not having any direct experience with Technics I 
can't tell you what's left out for the less money but I am sure that the
maxim "You get what you paid for" applies at least a little when the margins
are very small.  I own a Sony now and had an earlier model.  Both were fine
from a reliability stand point - I have no complaints.

Maybe all this will be academic when you see one player which just strikes
you visually and helps make the decision for you.  Today players are pretty
much getting to be commodity items and I don't think you will get burned no
matter what you choose.

-peter

    How about the 1 beam vs the 3 beam contrivercy?  What is the advantage
    of one over the other?
    
    Mike B
    

    Re: .23
    
    In modern players there is no difference.  Most manufacturers
    have gone to new improved single-beam designs.
    
    				Steve

    My recommendations (after having recently scoured the market) :
    
    Low end (<$300)  features are about the only difference all are
    not too great sounding, not my area ...
    
    High end (>$800) At this point you had better look around on your
    own I couldn't spend that much of your money in addition to the
    fact that I feel a mid-range unit will be plenty good for most of
    any normal persons needs (you must consider that the player is not
    the expensive part) so save some money here and get a good collection
    of discs.
    
    Mid range -- I personally narrowed it down to 2 machines the Dennon
    1500 (rated very well by mags etc.) and the NEC 650.
    
    The Dennon is about $650 and the NEC is about $350 ... After lots
    of honest listening, meaning taking them home where the salesman
    can't say "Oh, listen to that high end it's just terrible", you
    can't help but be biased! I determined that the Dennon was in fact
    a little better sounding, but it was very hard to tell.  The features
    were closely matched, the durability of both seems excellent, and
    both of them avoided skips on a "bad" disc that I borrowed from
    a friend that he couldn't get to play on about 6 different players
    including sony, pioneer, Dennon 700 (or is it 600?), Technics, Onkyo
    and one other.  This shows the types of Units that really sell (oh,
    the other one was Yamaha), the disc refused to play, was choppy,
    or had repeats on all of these but sounded fine on NEC and Dennon
    which is error correction!  
    
    I bought the NEC and have had it for almost a month and I love it!!!
    It's fully programmable, remote volume, etc ... and what I liked
    is that it avoids looking (and probably acting) cheap (as in flakey,
    lots of things to go wrong, since only the basic controls are on
    the machine and the magnitudes of buttons are on the remote.
    
    It sounds really nice and I have felt fine knowing that my first
    $300 worth of discs are "free" ... that's 25 discs!!!!!
    
    					Bill

    Just as well you didn't buy the Dennon - it was probably a cheap
    counterfeit Denon.

    Re: .25 (NEC 650).  Good choice, Bill.  I just bought one at Lechmere
    ($240) and it sounds terrific!  In fact, so great that:
    
    	 (shall we say it all together?)
    
    
    
    
    	-->   I need some new speakers!   <--
    
    
      John

    Tried the Telarc 1812, did you, John?
    
    
    I like the warning they have: "Warning, Digital Cannons" - I
    assume these are cannons with two states, and you don't want
    to be standing in front of them when they're in the "1" state...

    Yee Gads, does this sound familiar!!!
    I tried about half a million different CD players in three different
    states (Minn., Indiana, and Missouri).  I listened to about half
    a million different salesmen push their particular product.  In
    the end I tried the Magnavox CDB650, NEC, and Denon DCD 1500 together.
    The NEC and Denon were both terrific, but the Denon did indeed sound
    slightly better through the speakers I was buying!!!
    
    
   --->  I saved the yelling time, and just bought speakers at the same
         time as the CD player.  
    
    And I LOVE THE TELARC VERSION OF THE 1812.  You can shake plaster
    off the walls and send the cat scurrying for cover at the far end
    of the house any time the DIGITAL CANNONS ENTER THE "1" STATE!!!
    
    Dave
    
    
  

     What is the big deal about the 1812 overture?  The cannons in 
Wellington's Victory are much better.

    Now wait a minute .27 (NEC 650 for $240) the NEC 650 sells for $350
    on sale at most places!!  Is it really a 650 or a 500?  Wow I can't
    believe it $240 that is incredible, please tell me this isn't true
    I paid so much more, and even though I feel it is worth it I just
    have never, ever seen it this cheap.  
    
    
    					Bill

    re .30
    
    Yeah, I've got the Telarc of Wellington's Victory and the Cannons
    and muskets are great.  The first time I played it, my wife threw
    food all over the kitchen when the first cannon shot went off!!!
    Messy, but hilarious!
    
    D