Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

Congratulations!!!!!!  You have left the ranks of CD sounds great - see the
specs say so, and have heard problems on your own.  You may read note 179.

The problem is the transistor radio quality audio circuits that virtually
all CD players have.  You can't get perfect sound forever out of such garbage.

Woodwinds bring out sound system weaknesses.  I suggest you also refrain
from trumpets/horns, piano, violins, and any really dynamic music.

When I first became sensitive to this type of distortion, I started listening
to more and more synthisizer music because it didn't sound as bad.  I eventually
solved the problem by upgrading the components inside my Hafler amp and preamp.
My turntable and cartridge were fine.

Mark

So are you saying that my Dynaco 416 or Accuphase C200 is/are bad?  Even
my friend's set?  Even though Accuphase C200 is already 7 years old or so,
I still consider it out perform many other present machines.  Unless you
are saying that it needs some fixing up?

Others, any comments?

Charles

P.S I do appreciate your response, Mark

I wanted to indicate that the problem was with your CD player.

The story about my amp and preamp is about how I first started listening
more closely and eventually decided that something just didn't sound
right.  It took me two years with my Haflers to come to that decision.
After installing an electrolytic -> polypropelene capacitor change from Hafler,
I knew right away that it was the solution to what I had been hearing.
What I heard wrong was similar to what you described.

Furthermore, I had my Magnavox 1040 for several weeks before I started
to notice these same types of shortcomings.  After doing another electrolytic
to polypropelene capacitor conversion, I immediately got relief.

Most CD players begin with digital circuits that better $2000 worth of
turntable, tonearm, and cartridge.  They then end with the equivelent of
$50 worth of preamp and sound it.

Accuphase makes a good product.  The factory may have updates for you.
Dynaco is a bit dated.  I havn't heard a Dynaco in a long time, but it is
somewhat of a constant in your test and might be a contributor.

Mark

Unless the disc in question was also played on some player that Mark approves
of, I'd tend to suspect the disc rather than the player.  It may be that
some part of the original recording process got screwed up.
				Steve

I agree with .5   The main primary reason passive components affect
the sound is the placebo effect of well and truly beleiving that they
will, brought on by reading too many British HIFI magazines.  Components
and cables are the currently the 'fashionable' sources of distortion (what
ever happened to TIM, crossover distortion, etc?  They were fashionable
in their day.  Amplifiers still have measureable amounts of it.)

I know of *no* carefully controlled listening test that has demonstrated
that passive components are 'audible'.  My own experience has been that
if I somehow believe that something is harming the sound, that I begin to
have doubts and hear all sorts of things.  Human beings are remarkable
pattern discoverers, even when patterns are not there!

Check the most likely things first - that the recording was not
mastered properly.  The CD is so clean, that its easy to hear anything
amiss in the source material.  And there is so much source material available,
that it can't all be great.  It may be worth having a test disk available.
You'll find sinewaves on such a disk will readily show any distortion
due to malfuncitoning D-A converters and the like.

When Ray Dolby introduced his A noise reduction system, there was some
negative reaction to it.  It turns out that everyone was so accustomed
to the background noise of tape, that removing it made the recordings
sound dry and harsh.  This seems to be the big problem with the CD - its
just too analytical by comparison to the recordings that we have grown
used to.

I'm not saying the CD is perfect.  What I'm saying is to use some comon
sense about why audio gear sounds good or not.

- Jim

OK, .5, that's a good idea.

Take the disk and listen to it on a Nakamichi at a Tweeter (or natural), or
a meridian pro at Goodwins or the Music Box.

Pick out one or two small passages and get very familiar with them at home,
and then go listen to those same passages at the store whose player you are
interested in.

Mark

RE: .8
   Why don't you let other people whose views may not be the same as yours
make them in peace? These notes are for everyone, and opposing views make
for more interesting reading and lead to more interesting discussions. Why
not keep some of your "rantings" to yourself.

Re: .9
Done. Notice .8 is gone. me too.

Just to add a data point - I have the same recording of the Schubert
Impromptu's and listen to it quite frequently. I have heard none of the
upper treble abberations reported in this note. I don't have holy water
sprinkled on my components either (Yamaha CD-2, Nak 610 Preamp, Nak 620
Amp, KEF 104ABs).

Dave Oran.

I entered and later removed the reply .8

This was done because .9 got so upset with the reply. 

My reply was in essence that I totally disagree with Roth's position that
components such as capacitors have no audible distortion - the part that .9 got 
upset about.  I dont believe my reply was any more or less a put down of
Jim Roth's reply than his was of previous comments about component (read
piece parts) distortion.  Apparently .9 didnt see it that way. I once got
into this debate and found it has similarities to religious fundamentalism.
I learned then, and should have remembered, it isnt worth debating.  

I also suggested that since there were still common pieces in both systems 
you used to identify the problem, it would be advisable to try the disc on a 
completely different system, followed by the player, then amps.   

I have a friend who has a 200W integrated amp that actually shuts down during
the cannon shots on the Telarc CD 1812 Overture. He is looking into it but
it points up the fact that CD can deliver things to the electronics and
speakers which were not considered in many pre-CD designs.
                                                              
Walt                                                               

re: .-1, .-2

	I may regret putting my oar in, but for the sake of historical
accuracy, I don't think that .9 objected to the views expessed, but the
manner used to express them.  As I recall, they were pretty much personal
attack methods, that are usually considered bad taste.