Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

   Let us know where you park it - I'll take the speakers - anybody want
   the CD player??

   ps.  personally I think you are crazy. - either that or you want attention
  	in this notes file..

				�dave�

re. .0 

I asked the same question, see note 146 (where the D-5 was suggested).  Better
put some thought as to where to put the CDs in your car and how your are
going to handle them.  Some companies are bringing out CD "caddies" on their
car units.  Auto CDs seem to be paralleling auto tape, the earliest units
are seperate players designed to be added on with only a few reciever/players,
later moving to the opposit extreme.  I think if you buy what's available
now, you'll wish you had waited (even though the sound will be fine).

Refering to .1,  I agree, you'd be crazy to put that much into a auto system
without an armed guard, especially if it's a "target" car, ex. BMW, SAAB,
VW, Audi...

jlg

re .1: 

I'm not telling where I park it.  Amy I crazy?  maybe, but with over 100 CDs
and growing I want a good system in my car.  it was suggested to me already
that I just tape my CDs on my Nak and play them in the car.  I could just stay
with the stock cassette player, with its amemic power and junk speakers, but I
spend at least an hour a day in my car, and I have a fine system at home.  No I
don't want attention, just opinions. 

re .2: 

Sony recomends that you don't use the D-5 in a car, and I don't want a D-5
there.  What I want is FM and CD.  One guy I know who just got the Alpine CD
player (he has plenty of room for cassette/FM and equalizer) uses a "Little
Playmate" 6-pack cooler for his CDs.  I think I may do the same.  I have seen a
portable CD box at Rock-N-Mania that I sort of like. 

GAS 

One thing I think you should consider is: Are you going to be able to 
appreciate what a CD can give you in a (if your car is anything like mine)
noisy, moving car? I'm referring to dynamic range, especially if you like
classical music. I have the DBX unit (model 22) and have recorded many
records and the few CDs I have using DBX. My conclusion is that the 
increased dynamic range and less noise inherent in today's leading edge
technologies is by and large lost when being played in a moving car with
all its ambient noise. When I pull into a parking lot and shut off the
engine my tapes sound fantastic but how much listening do you do under
those circumstances? Most of the time I have to turn up the volume on the
soft passages and turn it down on the loud passages. Maybe your money 
would be better spent on upgrading you cassette-based car stereo system and
recording the CDs on your NAK, using Dolby B or C, as suggested in a 
previous response. It seems that doing that you could enjoy the music on your
CDs in your car, without all the liabilities discussed so far.

				Dick Rosenberg

Re. .3  I wasn't suggesting a D-5, I was saying that I asked the same question
about the same unit you pose, in note #146, and that an earlier note about
CD in cars was answered "get a D-5" and that that was the answer you were
trying to avoid.

The responses I got were summed up in response #4 to this note.  Ie., it
will cost less to go with very good quality cassette (recorded from CD) in 
the car where the benefits of CD will likely not be heard.

jlg

re:.3

Of course, it's quite likely that Sony advises against using a D-5 in the
car, because they want you to spend an extra few hundred to buy one of their
car players instead (as well as buying a D-5 for a portable player, and a
CDP302 for a home player :-)).

--- jerry

re .4
I agree.  A large dynamic range seems to be a disadvantage in a car.
Maybe what you need is a compressor for recording tapes to play in the
car.  A CD player seems to be a waste for the increased dynamic range.
On the other hand, the high frequencies will be a lot better than they
are on cassette.

p.s.  I KNOW where you park your car.

   So far we are all trying to talk you OUT of doing it, but I do have one
   reason for WANTING to put one in - Cassettes.
   
   Spending 100*13.50$ (approx)=1,350 dollars on CD's. now you want to make
   tapes of these CD's, ok.  The tape must be a good one to hold the Dynamics
   of the CD - say 3.50 for case lots?.  thats 100*3.50/2(two sides)=175$
   plus the time needed to tape them all - 1.5 hours/tape*(100/2)=750 hours.
   UGH 31 days and 6 hours and by that time the collection will have grown!!!
   
   SO screw that - get a CD player in you car! to hell with the dynamics
   it's much less frustrating.  (it also seems money is no object).
   
   now for the bad news. - I have no idea which manufacturer makes a good
   player.
   
   				�dave�
   

re: the D-5 solution 

Obviously the D-5 is going to be practical for car installation, but if you
look at the notes elsewhere in this file you can get an appreciation that there
are problems in doing this - isolation/vibration/etc.  I don't know where
Mahler has installed his D5_in_a_box_with_springs in his MR2, but I can't find
a practical place for one in my car. 

re .4, .7: put a cassette deck and use Dolby C 

Yes I know that I probably won't be able to appreciate the dynamic range in the
car what with all of the noise external to the vehicle.  However with the
windows up and travelling at sub legal speeds the car is very quiet.  I still
often have to turn up a classical CD when it is being played at home (I live in
an urban environment), and I  get grossed out when I have to do the same in the
car (hsssss).  I think the dynamic range of such a tape produced from a CD
could only be overcome by turning up the gain on the Nak and setting auto_level
mode. I haven't tried this - I'd rather fool with the volume. 

Anyway, since I have taped few CDs, and most of my cassettes are 2+ years old,
I have started listing to FM in the car all of the time - try and find an FM
station you can listen to for 45 minutes.  :-) 

re .7: 

Thanks Carl, when someone steals my unit I'll know who to go after.  I know
where you park YOUR car too.  ;-) 

re .8: An agreement!  Totally unexpected from a bunch of CD fans.  The cost in
time and money of my taping significant subsets of my CD collection is
something I have considered.  I might point out that I used to tape most of my
LPs for listing at home but I just don't do that with a CD since it 1) sounds
better and 2) can be played without wear of any kind to the media and very low
wear on the player.  Of course the players do have a limited lifetime - but by
the time I  use up the 5000+ hours that my semiconductor laser is expected to
last I'll probably be ready for a new Nth generation player. 

re: [all] 

I have committed myself to doing this.  I'll let you know how it turns out.
Even if I have wasted my money and am playing russion roulette with my CD
collection. 

GAS 

re .8

I agree that buying the car CD player is preferable to taping over 100 CD's,
especially given the price factors, or lack thereof.  I am certainly not
looking forward to the work involved in taping my (smaller) collection for my
car, but for me it's heaven just having a cassette deck in my car now!  Now
to "archive" all my old non-dolby/from-LP cassettes and get some decent sound
into it!

re .9

I have never known you to drive at sub-legal speeds :-)

Jill

So, you are going to do it.  Good Luck! (Not said sarcastically)  As I said
I had considered the same unit (CDX-R7) for my Fiero, but available space,
speaker placement, and money turned me back to cassette.  If I could have
gotten CD for the same price as tape I WOULD HAVE gone CD, and found some
way to handle the discs, and ignored what I couldn't hear in the less than
perfect environment with less than incredible amps and speakers, if only to
eliminate hiss at high volumes and tape jamming.  But the difference in cost
was a significant factor for me.  If it were a different car I might have
done CD.  Now for the point of all this.  You might want to wait a couple
more weeks for a better price.  What started me going was that Lechmere had
the CDX-R7 on sale for $450!!!, and what Lechmere puts on sale once, it puts
on sale again.  After seeing them once at $450 makes $579 no bargain.  And
anyone can have a low price, but if its "out of stock" what good is it?

Keep us posted.

jlg

re .10: 

OK, OK.  So I only drive sub legal occasionally.  My car is reasonably quiet at
normal cruise (~80), as long as the windows are up and the sunroof is shut
(which isn't that often in the summer).  That's what the killer amp is for.
BTW, someone could make a attachment for the Escort/Passport that will turn
down the stereo upon alarms - during the daytime the light is hard to see
particulary if you are paying attention to your driving. 


re .11: 

I got my CDX-R7 for $479.95 ($505 including tax) at another branch of the same
store (M.P.'s Electronic World on Rt 1 in Saugus).  So if/when Lechmere gets
off of that $700 figure and down to $450 I wouldn't feel TOO bad (I could have
had only one CD for the price difference :-]).  BTW, getting the same
amp/speakers with the top of the line Alpine would have costed MORE, since the
Alpine I fancied was $800 list (less 20% "system discount").  I'll keep you
posted on my success/lack of success. 

GAS 

I saw a review of the CDX-R7 in a local paper. The reviewer is an engineer
for the local classical station, which was the first to play a CD on the
air. He put the unit in last winter, and it has performed fine since. It
has survived -25 temperatures, Chicago potholes, and summer heat without
problems. He did say that the installation of this unit is CRITICAL and must
be done right. I would check where you get it to be sure that they have
installed some before you, unless you don't mind being the subject of an
experiment.

The owner of the little stereo store I found on a recient trip to Iowa (its
in his house) was about to put one in his 450SL, but hadn't done so yet.

I have been using the Sony D5 in my car since last November. It has never
even burped! I also have about a 2.5K setup in my car, and believe me, the
sound of the CD makes the cassette sound like AM radio. I have a top of line
NAK cassette player in the car also, and rarly use it since I got the CD. As
I have stated before, if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't have
bought the NAK, I would have just installed a CD with FM. Go for it, you'll
love it!
			FWR

re .13: I am having Beaconwood Motors (Watertown) install it.  They are used
to my flavor vehicle and I have examined their installations closely.  A friend
of mine just put a $3800 system in a Alfa GTV6, and it was done very well (he
has the top_of_the_line Alpine cassette/FM deck).  Glad to hear the CDX-R7
survives the cold.

re .14: Thanks for the enouraging word... I'll let you know how it turned out
next week.  Spending your savings isn't easy particularly when the wife wants
a hifi VCR :-)

GAS

Re. .12
       Hmmmmm.....  So you really got it for $480 (BTW - that's TWO CDs by my
       calculation :+})

jlg

OK.  I got it.  My unbiased opinion: it sounds GREAT of course.  Drums sound
like drums, piano sounds like piano, all of the other improved things we have
come to know about CDs.  I'm in love with my car stereo!  Specifics: 

I should have gotten more power.  I know that 60+60w sounds like a lot, but I
think that the remarkable dynamic range of CDs (e.g. Flim and the BB's) makes
me turn it up LOUD.  And if I turn it up real loud the amp takes a vacation
(shuts itself down).  There is no distortion or warning that this is about to
happen (the ADS speakers are rated for 100w and I am only feeding them
60/2=30w).  This is happening because I am running the output from the power
amp into the stock car fader and out to the speakers, presenting the amp with a
2 ohm load.  On very soft passages followed by a loud passage, the amp senses
less than 2 ohms out there and shuts off.  Cure: I will (maybe) get another
50+50w amp for the front speakers and use the Sony's fader for front-rear
balance.  Lesson: get twice as much power as you would with a cassette deck.
Also: the Bass Vent is fantastic!  Don't install a CD player without one. 

The FM (in general) sounds shitty now because of the quality of the rest of the
system, which doesn't really bother me much at all.  BTW, this happens on all
top of the line systems for the home/car.  WGBH sounds pretty good.  Amazingly
WAAF sounds the best for rock_style stations.  Lesson: listen to the CDs. 

No skips: I have tried to make the thing skip or mistrack, within the limits of
not hurting the car.  After taking several Mass back roads, the *only* time it
skipped was when I was coming up a rather steep section of pavement to a wooden
bridge, where I "caught air": slight skip.  It wasn't offensive in the least-
just started playing the CD somewhere else.  Lesson: avoid zero-G manuvers. 

When ejecting a CD, a slight chirp is heard from the speakers, regardless of
the volume control.  Not really offensive and something that surely will be
cured in the next release/version of the hardware.  Also there is key_beep,
which causes a little *fweep* as each button is pressed: the manual indicates
that by holding down buttons you can remove this, but I haven't been able to
turn it off.  Lessons: get used to this, its not all that offensive. 

I wish it had: (1) Programmability since there are buttons numbered 1-6 for the
tuner they could have numbered them 0-9 and made the MEMORY key control the
program (probably not enough ROM/RAM for this).  (2) I have gotten used to the
elapsed time/remaining time displays on my Technics SL-P8: the Sony's display
could certainly display this information (again probably not enough RAM/ROM). 

All in all, I would heartily reccomend the CDX-R7 to anyone who wants mobile CD
in a civilized package.  ;-) 

GAS 

Out of curiousity, what kind of car is all this wedged into?

and if you don't mind, what did it cost, and exactly what else does the system
consist of?

I have mailed the information to the requesting parties.  (It was $2316
including tax as installed.)

re.17	The real moral of the story is 

"Stay away from faders in high power circuits!"

(and other forms of level controls)

Do it on the low power side as you have found out.

You may also find that you don't need equal power front and rear,
depending on speaker system characteristics.

Ralph McNall

The final word: 

After the 100w/$600 upgrade I am very happy.  I don't know that it sounds $600
better, but my mind is at ease in that I can blow out my back window and not
smoke the fader. 

As far as skipping the CD player, I have discovered that skipping it depends a
lot on the type of bump (bumps at speed causing rear wheelspin) and the
particular CD.  Some CDs are easier to skip than others.  Two that I have
borrowed seem more sensitive than others.  My current uneducated guess at why
is maybe the holes are punched a little off center so that the tracking
mechanics/optics have to do a lot of work to keep it on track. On the CDs that
skip easier than others, it usually seems more sensitive towards the "end" of
the music (the outside of the CD). 

Do not fear: only 2 or 3 out of the 80+ I have tried exhibit any sensitivity at
all to this, and you still have to go over a BUMP to make it happen, and the
mistracking is not particularly objectionable.  I think the worst case ones
were all made in Japan (clear near the center hole). 

Does anyone know the facts behind tracking a slightly offcenter CD (disc
spinning faster towards the outside against the larger relative tracking error
along the inside)? 

I hope that Sony doesn't announce a new line too soon with improved features
and/or price!

GAS