Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

Jim,

I would not place too much emphasis on what Consumer Reports has to say when it
comes to sound.  I would use them to find a toaster that won't let me down, but
Radio Shack Peice-'O-junk player rated better than Yamaha?  What was the basis
of the rating?  Frankly, I find that real hard to believe.

Also, they tested the Yamaha CD-X1, not the Yamaha CD-2.  So the comparison is
not really a valid one in that the CD-2 is known to be a better sounding unit in
the first place.  I don't know if it was out of their price range for the test,
but I love my CD-2, and I doubt a Radio Shaft player is better.

DISCLAIMER:

I said I like my CD-2, which is not to say that no one else makes a CD player
as good, or better!  OK?

BML

	As has been said in this and/or the audio and/or video notes
files CR is a good place for the novice to start, and to weed out trash
units, but really doesn't hack it in the audiophile marketplace. It is
probably safe to say that the top 20% of the list represents better
equipment than the bottom 20% of the list, but I wouldn't say much more
than that. What price range did they test? I doubt any of those is past
about $600 or so. in the 600 to 1.5k range there are a lot of GOOD
units. I still haven't heard anyone claim that anything beats the REVOX
unit for $1050 or so. 

You might also consider that the quality of the Radio Shack unit is a
function of who they buy it from before they stick their label on.  Same
with sears.  If they're buying them from good producers (and there are very
few people who *actually* make them as opposed to those who just stick a
label on them) then they will have a good sound.
							>>>==>PStJTT

I think that Hitachi makes Sears' unit, but I am not sure who makes the Shadio
Rack unit. Could be Sanyo, maybe.

I can feel for anyone who bought the first generation units. But my CDP-101
still cranks O.K. to me, so I am not rushing out to get a new one. But, if
Bang and Olufson comes out with one, I might put the Sony in the Bedroom.

Jay

The Techniques SLP-3 got a rave review in the latest "Stereo Review".

Now if you could only find one for the $400 I've seen them advertised 
for. But even at $600 list I suspect it's a good bye.

/ralph

I am sure B&O are working on one.  Their 5000-series system has a place
to plug one in, and the remote control panel has CD functions on it.

They (B&O) were supposed to come out with one well over a year ago.  The
latest that I have heard is now July (it was June a couple of months ago).

						-Dave

Relative to the original question ("can you hear the difference"), that's
likely to produce the same kind of disagreement as similar discussions related
to Monster Fable speaker wire and goop to smear on your phono connections.
If you enjoy the sound of your CD-X1 (as I enjoy mine), don't be browbeat
into thinking there's something wrong with it. Listen to an LP; that'll cure
you.

I believe the low rating in CR was primarily due to features (no remote control,
for example) and noise immunity (a tendency to misbehave if the silver backing
of the CD is uneven in reflectivity) on the part of the CD-X1. At least,
that's the impression I got from a brief scan of the article.

Don't ignore  Consumer  Reports  completely: they provide useful information
(even about audio equipment!:-) if you know how to look. The thing not to do
(and this applies to all of their reviews) is to run out and buy whatever is
on  top of the ratings. In all of their reviews they put right up front what
aspects  of  the  product  they  consider  important, and what they consider
"good"  and  "bad",  so  you  can adjust the final ratings according to your
preferences.  And the list of advantages and disadvantages are helpful, too.
For  example, the Sonys (listed #1 and #3) were listed with the disadvantage
of  being  difficult to use for scanning over short distances. I'm not going
to  take their word for it, but when I (finally) start looking at CD players
that's something I'll be sure to try out on the Sonys.

Mike

My impression from the CR Review was that they were so in awe of the CD medium 
that they were unable to measure any significant differences in sound quality 
among the tested players. Quite possibly their test equipment and audiences 
just weren't up to it.

	Continuing on the original question asked in .0: 

	My home CD player is the Sony D-5, which doubles as my wifes
"portable" (she uses it with a 20# "getto blaster" rather than the
headphones!), but has some shortcomings. I CAN hear a bit of background
noise, particularly in places that are supposed to be silent. It is
still quieter here than a turntable and analog disk would be. The noise
vanishes when listening to the REVOX or a couple of the other top end
players. 

	The Elektra "Digital Domain" disk has several test tracks at the
end, including 90 seconds of silence (all zero bits). Buy this disk and
use it to evaluate the players that you are looking at. With the preamp
volume all the way to the top, this band should produce dead silence,
assuming that the preamp isn't generating any noise itself. I believe
that the disk has sine and square waves, as well as noise bands. On
those that are one channel only, the other channel should be quiet
(again, if you are using a good preamp). Stick with one preamp / amp /
speaker set and listen to several units for the differences. They are 
audible if your ears are good enough, but I wouldn't expect to hear big 
differences between any two decent units.

	The big shopping point is likely to be features. Do you want 
remote control? Programming? Phrase repeat? Audible fast forward and 
reverse? Combination CD / LV player? This is where you are likely to 
find the big differences between units.

I have a Technics SLP-1, one of the cheapest players around.  I can turn
the treble all the way up and hear absolutely no hiss or noise with digitally
recorded stuff.  The performance of analog recorded-digital mastered disks
depends entirely on the analog recording.  I only have one disc that I consider
to be terrible and that is the Sound of Music Soundtrack.  It has as much
hiss on it as the cassette.  The SLP-1 does a good job on the Telarc 1812
Overture with the warning on the front "Beware of the Digital Cannon"! 
I can't see putting a lot of money into a CD player today because as soon
as I do, someone will market a record/play model!  When that finally does
happen, the Technics will be retired to the bedroom system and I'll pay the
big money!

Don't expect a consumer CD recorder for some time ... even now, there are only 
a few manufacturing plants in the world because the equipment is massive and 
expensive.

I wouldn't recommend turning up the volume all the way to listen for
the hiss.  When the CD comes to the end of the 90 seconds of silence,
you can kiss off your speakers.  Also maybe your eardrums.

When Stereo Review reviewed the first-generation CD players a year or so
ago, Hirsch's comment was that the sound quality on all of the units was
so good that no realistic comparison could be made.  Where the players
diverged was in extra ease-of-use features (programmability, scanning,
remote units, etc.) and error handling capability (resistance to dirt,
surface damage, vibration).  They found quite a bit of variation in how much
contamination, surface damage, or vibration would cause dropout and
mistracking.

I suspect the same is true of today's second-generation units.  All have
excellent sound quality.  Most of the differences are in the kind and number
of whizzo features, and in the error handling capabilities.

--PSW

There's been lots of flaming in various places about Consumer Reports review
of CD players.  As has been suggested, they claimed that for all intents
and purposes all CD players sounded alike and that their ratings were based
on features, convenience, access time, resistance to shock, etc.  True, you
can measure the difference between some CD players, but few can hear the
difference. 
					Steve

	re .17

	Agreed. But then a CD player is a high end audiophile product, although
the prices are dropping quite a bit. I doubt that many people can hear the
difference between high end audio products of any type. Pick any ten people
at random off the street, and ask them to pick the difference between a $1000
and a $2000 amplifier, or any other type of audio component. I bet most or
all of them won't be able to tell the difference.

	The CD player is just so much better than what everyone is used to
hearing, that they don't have the experience to compare them yet. Once the
masses learn what REAL good sound is, this may change.

Re: 18

While browsing at the magazine rack in the Paper Store in Maynard I noticed
that Sony has brought out a CD/Cassette/AM-FM Boom Box with the ubiquitous
5 band equalizer and APM speakers. Those ten people on the street may be
hearing the difference sooner then you think.


							.wIx.

RE: Note on consumer's report.  I lost a lot of respect for that magazine
when I read about the Bose case in audio.  I got a lot of insight into
Consumer 'testing procedures'.  One of the consumers union biggies even
stated that people read consumers to learn about rat hairs in hot dogs
etc. - they want to be entertained.

I wonder WHO did the evaluation.  In the Bose speaker case their panel of
experts turned out to be one engineer and his assistant.

RE: .21

Just curious,  do you own Bose Speakers?  I have noticed a lot of
people who lost respect for Consumer Reports once they down-rated
their personally owned equipment. 

I am from the camp that they are quite useful.  I don't trust all of
their judgment but there is so much useful information in that
magazine that justifies my purchasing it. 

Jim Pappas 

re. -.13

Turning up the high end will tell you very little about the
quote-quitness-unquote of CD's.  I submit/notify that this will do little
more than tell you about your amp.

bml