Conference marvin::uk_music

    
    Bit of a tricky one, this.
    
    Bill Nelson is a very good guitarist, but it all depends what you're
    looking for.  He's melodic and plays a wider variety of guitar 'type'
    instruments - not just your average Telecaster etc.
    
    For me, it was always Blackmore - the man who was really saddled
    with being the replacement for Hendrix, but no man could carry that.
    Hear him playing a Gibson on the 'Concerto ...' album - totally
    different to his later Fender playing.  Problem was, that he did
    have rather a big ego, and others found him tricky to get on with.
    
    Page also was a fave.
    
   Tony, being a HM fan, you are probably slightly biased in their favour
    - I mean, what actually makes a good guitarist.  It's all very
    subjective stuff, and I think it's hard comparing players of different
    styles/music types.
    
    Thoughts?
    
    David.
    

    In the HM/HR field I think you missed Alex Lifeson of Rush. Another
    one is Yngwie Malmsteen. Also Stevie Ray Vaughn, Steve Morse
    
    In the non HM/HR field how about the following:
    
    Al Di Meola
    John McClaughlin
    John Williams
    Kevin Peek
    Mike Oldfield                                                
    
    I think that it is pop that is really lacking, and not just in good
    guitarists. Axemen are almost by definition exclusively linked to
    HM/HR, whereas guitarists are more generic.
    
    Balders.
    
    

        
        Hi Dave and all,
        
        	I agree I could (well, all right, I AM) be biased 
        	towards HR/HM 	guitarists but my tastes are not 
        	limited to HR/HM music.  There are lots of 
        	non-pop but non-metal good guitarists (Clapton - 
        	The Edge and Chris Rea [sp?] to name but a few) 
        	but `pop' music doesn't have that many (I can't 
        	think of any names at the mo.).
        
        	Ritchie Blackmore was (or is - whats he doing 
        	now?) a v.good guitarists but he was too 
        	eccentric_a_player for the general music 
        	audience.

    		Axe men is a more MH specific term - but I was using
    		it more as a nickname rather than a clarification.
    		
    		Can anyone think of any good _pop_ guitarists?
        
        	What about session playrs?
    	
    		Kind Regards
    		-Tony Dallison
    
    		
    		BTW - I would have included Yngwie Malmsteen - but I
    		can never remember how to spell it1 ;-)

    
    
    
    	Depends what you mean by *pop*  but how about....
    
    
    		Brian Setzer of Stray Cats
    		Roddy Frame  of Aztec Camera (Doug where are you ?)
    		Charles ?    of Simple Minds
    		The guy from Lloyd Cole and the Commotions
    		Billy Duffy  (before The Cult)
    
    
    	To name but a few....
    
    
    
    		Grub  Tim...

    Another *pop* guitarist is whatsisname Taylor of Duran Duran. People
    seem to rate him quite highly. Hard to think of any others though.
    
    Midge Ure, he gets about a bit. Difficult to view him as anything
    other than competent though.
    
    This is a real head scratcher :-)
    
    Balders

    
    .4 - What was Billy Duffy doing before the Cult?
    
    .5 - Andy Taylor - I've got his first solo album "Thunder" which
    is quite good.  Taylor is a good guitarist and he played some good
    stuff with the Power Station. BTW - Andy Taylor is working on an
    album with Rod Stewart at the mo (so I heard).
    
    Midge Ure? Hmmm - hadn't really thought of him.
                          
    As for The Edge - well I'm sure he is a competent guitarist but
    what I've heard of U2's music doesn't really reflect it. 
                                                                  
    Mark Knoppler is another v.competent player as is ex-Europe
    whatshisface-Norum (John?).            
                              
    Don't you just hate those people who hold a guitar for the sake
    of it???????? (Eg, Paul Stanley of Kiss and (arghh! dare I say it)
    Jam Bun Jovi.                                                
                                               
    Kind Regards  
    -Tony Dallison

    Hi there Tony, it's me again.  I agree that all the real guitarists
    are in the HM/HR field, and all those listed so far are excellent
    examples of true axe heroes.  A few more to add to the list would
    be;
    		Kerry King-Slayer
    		Kirk Hammett-Metallica
    		Whatsisname-lead on Phantom of the Opera(Maiden)
    
    Keep the faith,
    
    			Darron

    I've been asked if anybody out there remembers *Tony McPhee* from
    the Groundhogs.

    
    I think that the film 'Crossroads' (average film,quite good imitation
    guitar playing) sums up this topic.
    Personally I think that Alex (from Rush - can't spell surname) is
    the best guitarist around at present.
    
    Matt.

>< Note 29.9 by REPAIR::EDWARDS "Moshduck strikes again" >
>                           -< This was not my idea >-
>
>    I've been asked if anybody out there remembers *Tony McPhee* from
>    the Groundhogs.

Of course, more bluesy then HM though.

FWIW - I saw a copy of 'Split' in Our Price the other day for about �2.99.

Nigel

    What's the big deal about guitar heroes? The great thing about Punk
    was it cut through all that crap about "who's the best guitarist"
    - but not forever, it seems.
    
    I really don't like all this stuff about elevating people to hero
    status just because they play guitar. The music a band plays comes
    from all of them, not just one, so listen to the music, not just
    to the guitar.
    
    Rod

    
    RE: .3
    
    Agree.
    
    Pop guitarists, being 'pop' are not centre stage in their respective
    bands, eg. are Abba known for their guitar players etc.  This could
    be the basic problem.
    
    Hard rock is more about individual players and styles - that's why
    a lot of the top axe men are more HR/HM oriented.
    
    Jeff Beck, B.J. Cole (pedal steel) are amongst top craftsmen in
    their field.
    
    David.
    

    
    
   re. >>29.10
    
    Crossroads - thats not a bad film - "..theres only one blues man
    in this town.." :-)
                       
    It was a while since I saw it but I could have sworn the axeman
    at the burn out was Steve Vai (maybe wrong though).  Had some good
    blues riffs in it... (If anybody knows please put me out of my misery).
                                                                           
    I haven(t heard much from the Rush ranks, but I hear                   
    Alex_whats_his_sausage is good.                                        
                                                                           
    What about bass players?????
    
    My top favs. include (but not limited to) Mark King, Gene Simmons,
    Neil Murray and Jimmy Baine.
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    -Tony
         

                               -< MH on HM >-

    Always a perennial problem this question.
    Guess it comes to what defines a *good* guitarist from the merely
    competent?  Range of Styles, technique, Expression?
    
    I'm probably going out on a limb (or perhaps about to lose one!)
    by saying that HM Axemen(or women) don't score on Two of the above
    counts. Not that I'm against HM {uh, uh} but the format of the genre
    precludes too much in the way of delicacy e.g. Time or Key changes
    HM tho' is *good* at: Searing lead bursts + playing so LOUD that
    yer ears bleed.
    
    My vote for best Guitarist (to-day at any rate) would go to Clapton
    before he got "soft" and in particular to his efforts on "Crossroads"
    {no, not the soundtrack} & "Spoonful" on 'Wheels of Fire'. These
    tracks, especially the latter, display all the qualities mentioned
    above. More so as all the band are improvising!
    
    M

    To get back to 29.0,fast and accurate guitarists (note the correct
    spelling) are not necessarily 'better' than any other guitarist.
    Technically maybe,but what's the point of having a fast and accurate
    piece of music if it sounds a load of rubbish. You could progamme
    a sequencer to play a piece of music faster and more accurately
    than humanly possible but that doesn't mean it will sound any good.
    I agree totally with 29.12. Punk music was played by some pretty
    technically incompetent musicians but together they created the
    most exciting sound for years.Of course it all comes down to personal
    taste;if you like fast accurate music,but aren't particularly bothered
    what it sounds like then I would guess that HM is for you. However,SOME
    HM songs manage to end up sounding quite nice. Must be the ones
    where the fast and accurate guitarist had the day off.
    
    			Cheers   -   Phil.

    Nobody ever heard of Robin Trower ?
    Closest to Hendrix I've ever Heard.... 
    
    
    Gary

    
    
    	Billy Duffy before The Cult was in Theatre of Hate.
    
    
    	Bass players   The guvnor is Robbie Shakespear.
    
    
    		Tim....

             
    	Re. 29.18 
        
    	� Billy Duffy....Theatre of Hate
        
    	I've heard of them, I might try and give them a listen some
	time. (useless fact - Theatre of Hate is the title of a
    	Motley Cr�e album).
        
    
    	Anybody have any fav. guitar solos, be it pop, metal,
    	rock, blues etc..?
                    
    	I like the solo that Micky Moody did on Whitesnake's
     	"Live...in the heart of the city" album.  Its quite long and
    	very blusey, and as its a live album, you can tell the crowd
    	are lapping it up! :-)
                                          
    	Or what about the little Bass riff, by ex-Duranie Jhon Taylor,
    	on The Power Station's version of T'Rex's classic `Get It On'
                                          
    	Thoughts?                         
        -Tony                             

    I'm a bit surprized that no one has mentionned :
    
    Eddie Van Hallen and Steve Steven's (ex-Billy Idol's lead guitar)
    
    They are just great.....
    
    Ciao - Renato

    
    
    .20� Eddie Van Halen and Steve Stevens
                      
    Opps! forgot them!!!
    
    Whats VH doing thesedays?? I hear that they are playing the US Monsters
    Of Rock with The Scorpions, Whitesnake and (I *think* Mettalica).
                                                                     
    Also forgot Aerosmith's Joe Perry and Brad Whitshisface                 
                                                                     
    Steve Stevens - He's currently doing a project with Billy Sheeham
    and Tommy Price - they are currently singerless and nameless :-)
                       
    What about Jake E Lee - Ex Ozzy Oz. Band????? - He's working with
    Ray Gillen (Ex - Black Sabbath vocalist), Greg Chaisson and ex-Gary
    Moore band's drummer Eric Singer. (Erics GMB replacement is ex-Thin
    Lizzy Brian Downey).
                
    What about whathisface from Dokken?????
                
    -Tony                                                         

    I always used to think how wonderful Ritchie Blackmore was and how
    could he play so fast until I heard Al DiMeola.
    I also remember very well watching a "Jazz on 4" concert some time
    ago. The concert was at the Albert Hall and was given by three
    guitarists namely John McClaughin, Larry Coryell and Paco de Lucia.
    The speed of their playing was fantastic.
    I still listen to Blackmore but his playing is in its infancy compared
    to that of those mentioned above.
    
    Kevin
    

    
    	Heartily agree with .22
    
    	Two albums I can recommend are "Passion, Grace and Fire" with
    	John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola and Paco De Lucia playing together,
    	and "Acoustic Colours" with the above plus Larry Coryell, Baden
    	Powell and the amazing Los Romeros, both on the Philips label.
    
    	To answer .0 I think it's because the guitarist is more important
    	in 'Heavy' bands than 'Pop', but this does not necessarily make
    	them better, as mentioned previously Knopfler, Clapton, Frame,
    	Cray, Peek, Williams et al are bloody good players, because 
    	they *practice*.
    
    	Reputations can be built on very little, I mean Hank Marvin
    	is supposed to be a great Guitarist, but I certainly haven't
    	heard it in any of the Shadows stuff, which even a very ordinary
    	payer could manage (as long as he got the dance right!).
    
    	Doug. 

      
    re.23
    
    >> ...because they practice...
    
    All guitarists must practice to some extent. Doesn't matter if they
    happen to be thrash metal or folk music - they still HAVE to practice.
                                                                          
    (Having said that I agree about Hank Marvin - did they audition       
    him as a dancer first??? ;-)                                          
                                                                          
    Kind Regards,
    Tony Dallison ye metal_head 

    
    McCloughlin certainly has the reputation for being one of the fastest
    players ever.  His work with his Shakti outfit is also interesting.
    
    David.
    

I thought that Tom Schultz's playing on Boston's first two albums was brill.
Can't comment on the third as I've not heard that one.

They quite amazing to see in concert aa well. To see Tom reproducing all
those wonderful sounds, and the bass player (forget his name) was something
else. He bobbed about like a bass playing Angus Young. Extraordinary.

TC

    
    A few I enjoy listening to:
    
    Slash from Guns 'n roses 
    Steve Ray Vaughan
    Trevor Rabin now with Yes his solo stuff,in particular "cry wolf"
    Ricky Medlocke when he was playing with blackfoot
    Jeff Beck
    E.C
    Ted Nugent
    George Lynch (although after seeing him live with dokken I'm in
    		  two minds about him,great on record though)
    Carlos Santana
    
    
    steve.s
    
    

    	Aside from guitarists, there's a good HM topic on another music
    conference.
    			DREGS::MUSIC	gets you in.
    
    Keep the faith,
    			The Duck
    

    re last
    
    I'm having problems with the DREGS::MUSIC conference.The most recent
    note i can access is dated sometime last March.I know they had disk
    problems around that time and moved up to Version_3 (?) ,it looks
    like I'm at V_2 still !!!. Any quick and easy suggestions on how
    to get into the latest version.
    
    Thanx,
    -Dave K. 

    
    	Yup, I had the same problem, the recommended method "MOD
    	ENTRY/FILE=xx" didn't work, I suspect because the filename
    	was the same, so I just deleted the entry and then
    	put it back in again, this was just after the reincarnation
    	so there weren't too many notes.
    
    	Doug.

    re .0
    
    "Chord changes have to be faster"
    
    Ill grant you this, but when you have to move 1 finger holding down
    2 strings to 2 other strings then it does make life easier. I mean,
    even I sound good when I do that. :^) You'd be surprised (or you might
    not be) at how many popular HM bands do this (or used to when I
    listened to it) because its easy and effective and certainly not
    difficult, as only partial chords are played.
    
    As for pop bands and guitarists; I saw a programme on tv about 
    It Bites recording an album, and from what I saw, the guitarist with
    them was certainly competent enough to take on a complex lead line.
    My point is that that I have no doubt that guitarists with the better
    pop bands could throw flesh all over the fretboard and equally guitarists
    from the worse HM bands probably couldnt. The pop guys dont do it
    simply because its at odds with their style of music.

    I agree with the sentiments expressed on punk. 
    'Okay so we know he's not _that_ good but hes sounds pretty good doesnt he!"
                           
    Ian

    Re: DREGS::MUSIC music conference.
    
    	Yes, V3 is the latest version to hit the streets.
    	Now that I have V3, I can't seem to get into V2 anymore.  I
    	know that the filname for V3 is slightly different but, as I
    	can't access V2 I am unable to help, except that the new
    	name may be MUSIC. or something like that.
    
    Keep the faith,
    			The Duck.

    
    .31�  You'd br surprised at how many popular HM bands do this..
          
    Could I have a few specific examples please???
    
    -T

    re. -1
    
    Listen to AC/DC some time. A classic example is 'Let There
    Be Rock'. Listen to it. They arent playing full chords with all
    the high strings, no no no, theyre playing all those big chunky
    strings up the top. And why not. If they played all the strings
    it would be called punk and everyone would have to put gel in their
    hair, wouldnt they?  *:^)
    
    Also Saxon in (that tune of theirs) Wheels of Steel and Deep Puurple
    in Smoke On The Water. You know the bit, Ner Ner Ner, Ner Ner Ner
    Nerr, Ner Ner Ner , Nerr Ner Ner. Yes its two strings. Ive tried
    it and its how he did it. I could go on with examples forever except
    that I cant remember any. I must point out here that I dont care
    how people make the noise, its what it sounds like, and this partial
    chord method is particularly effective.
    
    I replied to you saying that chord changes are facilitated by the
    playing of partial chords. I mean, why plaster your fingers allover
    strings your not going to play them - no need.
    
    Anyway AC/DC pre Back in Black for definite are good examples. Dont
    know about theyre more recent stuff. Okay so I said 'many popular
    HM bands' when I meant the bands around 82 and 83 (you know the
    NWOBHM et al, ha ha). One must presume that this practise is still
    rife :^)   
    
    Ian

    Well it took you lot an awful long time to get round to "Fast Eddy"
    and Carlos Santana!  Nobody's mentioned Steve Lukather yet, another
    brilliant guitarist. 
    
    BTW, hands off Hank, he's my hero an' I bought my Strat wivva wang-bar
    so's I could be like him (after 2 years I went on to be a headbanger
    though!)
    
    Steve.
    

    
    From what I've read in this note, it sounds like speed=great guitarist.
    
    I beg to differ.  There are different classes of guitar playing
    each requiring their own unique degree of difficulty.  A lot of
    players can blow off blistering single note solos, but are lacking
    when it comes time to cut chord stuff or rhythm comps.  Howard Roberts
    is a jazz guitarist who in *my* mind can put alot of HR/HM guitarists
    to shame on a technical level, but his choice is in playing jazz.
    
    Yngvie Malmsteen is indeed an execellent player, but he would feel
    ill at ease in jazz territory as I'm sure George Benson would feel
    in HM territory.  As an allegory, the fact that I choose to read
    non-fiction books doesn't make me any less of a good reader than
    someone who chooses to read sci-fiction.
    
    - Time to run - Larry

    I my humble opinion Great Guitarist = Can play fast            +
                                          Brilliant Technique      +
                                          Amazing sense of feeling +
                                          Anything (but not dancing)
    
    By this equation Hank Marvin will never rate higher than competant.
    
    Top five guitarists:
    
    John McGlaughlin
    Al Di Meola
    Steve Hackett
    Steve Howe
    Jimi Hendrix
    
    Notice that none of these are HM, the demands of HM don't produce
    brilliant guitarists, just a lot of very competant players. Those
    HM axemen who are brilliant tend to be non-conformers ie they play
    more than one style. The above five can cover plenty of different
    areas especially Al Di Meola. Blackmore is a fantastic HM/HR guitarist,
    but cant quite escape the restrictions of HM.
    
    Apologies to HM fans everywhere
    
    Balders.

    
    
    	And what about the bloke Eric Clapton calls GOD...
    
    
      The one and only Buddy Guy !!!!
    
    
    		Grub.

    Any one mentioned Joe Pass yet....
    
    Got to be one of the ALL time greats

      
    I just read an article on Yngwie J Malmsteen and did you know that....
      
    "Yngwie constructs the majority of his blinding lead breaks within
    the limitless framework of 17th Century Baroque chord progressions,
    similar to Blackmore...."
                                       
    'nuff said....
      
    Any guitar buffs care to explain?
      
    KR
    -T
      

    The best is/was/is Jimmy Page of Led Zep. I can add no more...
    
    Another good guitarist is Brian May of Queen. Listen to their albums
    up to JAZZ, and you will see what I mean. I thought I ought to mention
    Brian as no-one else has...
    
    Andy

 >   The best is/was/is Jimmy Page of Led Zep. I can add no more...
   
    	Almost Agreed.
               
    	I think I'd put Jimi Hendrix 1st though. 

        The 'Song remains the same' version of Dazed and Confused 
    	contains some weird/fantastic guitar playing with a violin
    	bow by Mr Page, greatr at full volume!
    
    	Gary 
    	

    
    
    *ALL NEW*
    
    	Heavy Metal conference is finally here.
    
    		ADD ENT ANT::HEAVY_METAL
    
    K.T.F.,
    		The Duck.

    
    re.44
    
    The conference has moved - anyone know where to??????
    
    Have a good onE
    -Tony Dallison-

    
    	saw an entry in MUSIC about it, it could take up to
    	a week to move it, if I see anymore I'll let you know.
    
    	Doug.

    Cheers :-)

    The heavy metal conference has moved finally, it's new location
    is
    		HSSWS1::HEAVY_METAL
    
    In Houston, Texas of all places!!
    
    K.T.F.
    		Darron.

    Texas: ZZ Top territory and home of the Texas Jam.....

    re .10
         The film 'Crossroads' featured the guitar work of Ry Cooder
    if you like blues and aren't familiar with him, check out some of
    his stuff.
    
    
    					Kevin
    

    There are a few others that I saw no mention of, 
    
    	Rory Gallagher
    	Steve Stills 
    	Jerry Garcia
    
    	and what about Roy Clark, He can play anything with strings
        amazingly well.
    
    	I think that one of the most important marks of greatness is
    the ability to play a number of different styles. 
    
    				Kevin
    

    
    re.50
    
    Yeah, I knew the slide guitarist was Ry Cooder.  Did you know that
    the Heavy Metal guitarist (at the end) was Steve Vai of the David
    Lee Roth band.  (Same Steve Vai who used to play with Frank Zappa
    ??)
    
    Small world...

    My list of the best:
    
    EC
    Albert Collins
    Tommy K (Roomful of Blues)
    Eddie Van Halen

    
    I honestly don't have any use for David "BIG EGO" Roth, therefore
    I had no idea of who is/was playing guitar for him. You did bring
    up the name of one of the other great guitarists though  Zappa.
    He can do amazing things.  
    
    As for personal favorites, I like Jerry Garcia, he may not be the
    best at anything but he plays a lot of instruments nad styles.
    I saw him break out the pedal steel last summer, hte first time
    that he played it in public for ten years!  He also has done some
    bluegrass, with a band called "Old And In The Way" back in 73-4
    playing the banjo is a very big change from the guitar.  
    While on stage with the other members of the Dead he goes from one
    style to another every few songs. 
    
    
    					Kevin
    
    

    My favourite ( NOT necessarily the best, but one of)
    
    			Marty Wilson-Piper
    
    	I'll leave you all to work out who he is, what he plays, who
    he plays for.... for the the moment anyway.
    
    
    					Graham

    
    re:-1
    
    Something vaguely religious, yes?  The Choir?  No?
    
    Ian!  

    HELP!
    	I CANT GET THROUGH TO THIS NODE, CAN SOME BODY PLEASE HELP!

    
    
    Try substituting 16839 for HSSWS1.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dave.

     Being a heavy metal guitarist I had to throw my .02 cents worth
    in here.  Speed doesn't a great guitar player make.  It takes speed,
    style, and FEELING above ALL else.  Most metal music is fast so
    the feeling expressed is fast.  That's why most metalfans feel speed
    is better.  Some good metal stringsmiths in my book are ...
    
    		Can't remember their names - Racer X
    		George Lynch - Dokken
    		Jake E Lee - Ozzy
    		Yngwie Malmsteen - Rising Force
    		Vito Brata - White Lion
    		Eddie VanHalen - VanHalen (the King !!)
    		Vivian Campbell - Dio/Whitesnake
    
    		..... the list goes on ....
    
    
    			Scary
    		... the list goes on ...

    
    BTW what *has* happened to the HM conference ?
    
    John J

    Let's say the level of b******t in the conference exceeded it's
    quota.  It will rise again after a breather.  Heavy_Metal will
    never die ... stay tuned !
    
    
    				Scary

    My favourites:
    
    	Gary Moore - Thin Lizzy/GM Band
    	Adrian Smith/Dave Murray - Iron Maiden
    	Viv Campbell - Dio/Whitesnake
    	Yngwie Malmsteen
    	Eddie Van Halen - Van Halen
    	Jake E Lee - Ozzy
    	Slash - Guns N' Roses (Sooo much talent for someone so trashy!)
    
    Philippa

    re: .62
    
    I'm not trying to start a war ... but why do you think Slash is
    a good player ?
    
    
    				Scary

    re -1
    
    I like Slash because what he plays is original, he can hold a good
    melody and when he plays fast you can still here the individual
    notes....is that enough?
    
    Philippa

    
    Yo Scary, I too like most of the guitarists you've mentioned but
    do you think that Malmsteen plays with *feeling*??? 
                                             
    200mph yes...feeling no.                 
                                             
    You want feeling ?? check out Chris Impelliterri.(sp?).  He's got
    an album out with Graham Bonnect (ex-Rainbow/Alcatraz) and he does
    an real could cover of 'since you've been gone' and there's a good
    instrumental on there 'over the rainbow'.
                                             
    The band is called 'Impelliterri' and the album is called 'Stand
    In Line'
    
    -Tony                                    

    A talented Heavy metal guitarists is no better than any other talented
    guitarists.

    I can see this is going to blow up again so I thought I'd get my
    2p worth in before its write locked.
    
    Mr Scary in 227.106 informs us why musicians that play heavy metal
    are better than the rest of us. I quote:
    
    " It (HM) takes more practice to stay on top of than all other forms
    of music combined."                                                
    
    Well personally I am insulted.
    
    I am a jazz musician (bass player) and have been for ten years.      
    I practice bloody hard.
    I don't play HM so that means Mr Scary is putting me down as a second
    rater even though HE HAS NEVER HEARD ME PLAY!
    
    Regular readers of my notes will know that I have tried to persue
    a line of tolerance toward all musical forms (I was even praised
    by one of the HM fans for understanding their point of view).
    
    MR SCARY I ASK THE SAME TOLERANCE OF YOU!!!
    
    Tony   KML

    I agree with Chequer and Imbierski, to make a blanket statement
    like that [Scary] is way, way out.  I mean I doubt very much that
    George Lynch would have any clue as to the theory behind what a
    player like Miles Davis or John Coltrane does when they solo (I
    could be wrong).  Granted, a lot of HM players are absolutely
    extraordinary, but I doubt one of them would make the statement
    you made.  I mean Julian Bream could blow Yngwie away.
    
    Scary, ya'll are way outta line boy, y'hea?
    
    joe.

    Yea, I'm sorry, but I must agree that your comments, Scary, were
    just a Weeeeeee little bit on the not so nice side.
    
    In my opinion, the only point I wish to make here is this:  I feel
    that some Heavy Metal musicians, not just guitarists, are really
    good musicians and not just noise makers.  This is not to say that
    they are better or worse than musicians of other types of music,
    just to say that some of them are really good players and deserve
    the respect that goes with those accomplishments.
    
    Steve O 

    re: .67
    
    No insult intended !  I love jazz, and the musicians who perform
    it are VERY talented.  I don't play it so I can't truthfully say
    how much practice it takes to be a good jazz player - quite a bit
    I'm sure.  I *am* a metal guitar player and I know what it takes
    to keep my chops current, and my friend, there aren't enough hours
    in the day.  If I had said *YOU* aren't as talented as *I* then
    I could understand your complaint.  But I made a blanket statement
    voicing my opinion with no malice intended .....
    
    		........ take a deep breath .....
    
    		     ...... AND SIT DOWN !!!!!!   
    
    
    
    			       Scary

    Also let's remember what we're talking about here ... "What makes
    a good Heavy Metal musician ?"  To compare the best of the metalworld
    to the top players of ANY other form of music would be like comparing
    apples to oranges.  Feeling(#1) - Speed - Accuracy - Theory all make
    up a well rounded musician of any form.  Some may be stronger/weaker
    in some suits over others.  As long as it adds up to 100%, what
    difference does it make ?
    
    If my reply 227.106 insulted anyone, please accept my appologies.
    We were talking Heavy Metal - I'm qualified :^) on that subject.
    
    
    				Scary
                                   
    	
    
    :^) x _____ <---- fill in the blank as needed to give me a break)

    
    Just to let everyone over here know IRDEV::HEAVY_METAL is back and
    going strong.
    
    Bk
    

    
    The guitarist that can play jazz, metal, classical, and top 40 is
    the best.
    
    Any one style alone doesn't cut it.
    
    /prc

 
    				IMHO
    
    The guitarists that play what *I* like, In any style, at any speed,
    be it with their fingers or their plo*kers, with any type of
    instrument, with any type of sound system, with or without feeling
    anyone or anything, high or not, whatever they are wearing, and
    impress me with their ability, without being overly pretentious,
    are the best.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    but
    
    thats
    
    just
    
    my
    
    opinion

>    The guitarist that can play jazz, metal, classical, and top 40 is
>    the best.
    
>    Any one style alone doesn't cut it.
    
IMO, not necessarily. I do admire the ability to play different styles
(one of the reasons I love Neil Young so much). But my favorite guitarist
is Eric Clapton, who is strictly a blues guitarist. While he may record
songs that have a pop feel, his actual guitar playing is blues oriented
from beginning to end. And yet, even though he is one-dimensional, I still
love it!

Alan S.

    Good point !  I like Clapton too but my likes tend to follow the
    more technical/speed oriented styles like those of Gilbert/Boulet
    of Racer X.  It's not really a matter of who is BETTER, but who
    you LIKE better.  Variety truly is the spice of life !
    
    
    				Scary

    Re .10/.14
    Very Late I know, But important.
    
    There is this guy, Arlen Roth who is a bit special in the guitar
    field (played guitar on the Paul Simon African tour). He taught Ralph 
    thingy to PLAY guitar for most parts in the film Crossroads, 6 hours a
    day for 3 months, a dedicated actor or What ?
    
    Arlen also composed and PLAYED most of the blues guitar parts except
    for the Steve Via guitar part in the dual scene and the openening
    theme, which Ry Cooder played.
    
    The reason I add this note is that I think Arlen Roth should get
    due credit also can anybody teach me to play guitar like Ralph thingy
    in 3 months !?
    
    Graham ...

    Try Arlen Roth, Graham - you can get tutorial tapes by him for various
    styles, including blues.....
    
    I thought it was Ry who did the guitaring on most of Crossroads,
    apart from the Steve Vai bit, seems like maybe it wasn't?
    
    Bob

    
    
    
            Sorry to but in but i've read up reply 29
            and none of you lot have mentioned.
    
    
           1.) ulrik? roth
           2.) rudolf shenker
           3.) Mathias Jabbs
           4.) Brain may
    
           to mention but a few and by the way the scorpions are 
           by far the best HM band around..
    
           i would like to know who you lot class as the worst Hm
           guitarist is.......my nomination is.
    
    
    
           CAIN ROBERTS...............

    
    Worst HM guitarists Cane Roberts ?
    
    You must mean the guy whos built like a brick toilet and used to
    play for Alice Cooper.
    
    No, my worst guitarists goes to Mick Marrs (Motley Crud) and CC
    Devile (Poison).  
    
    I quite like Rudolf Shenker, but I prefer his brother Michael MUCH
    better.  Jabbs is okay too, but some of the new Scorpions material
    is pretty weak, so their guitar playing ability isn't reflected
    on the stuff.
         
    Again, all my humble opinion.
         
    -Tony        

    
    Could'nt resist the temptation of joining in on this pissing contest;
    be it very late. All this "H.M. guitarists are better" lark is the
    sort of thing I used to say when I was part of the acne and dandruff
    brigade. But, if we're all gonna stand in that guitarist toilet
    comparing knobs then I'll have to go for Django Rheinhardt, a donkey
    of a guitarist and he did'nt even have a full set of fingers!!.
    
    Bazzer,
    
    Loitering with intent.

    gigo

    re .82
    
    What!!!!????
    

    Garbage In, Garbage Out

    Oooooohhhh!!!
    
    Can I sense a little cat scratch fever!!????
    
    
    
    

    I just saw this note and although heated discussion is over, and I'm
    not going to even bother reading the notes in this conference, I had to
    leave a statement here.
    
    To .0
    
    That was the dumbest, most generalized statement I have ever heard.  To
    say that metal guitarists are better is just wrong.  I love metal, and
    it's mostly what I listen to, but to say that the guitarists are better
    is just completely and totally wrong.  First of all, to compare Eric
    Clapton and Angus Young is not correct.  Two different styles, etc... 
    I wouldn't even put Clapton in a hard rock category.  Not for
    comparison anyway.
    
    Besides, metal guitarists, in general are (with the exception of
    country guitarists) the worst musically out of any genre of music. 
    Look at most jazz, classical, and folk guitarists, who would blow
    the pants off 99% of any metal axers.
    
    Anyone who can move their fingers can finger-tap a solo.  Whee!
    I do agree that their are a few really excellent metal guitarists who
    do have feeling and skill, but I can't express that generally like the
    title statement of this note.  I'm through now.
    
    Steve

    Re .86
    
    You CAN compare Young and Clapton - they're both BORING!!! :^)
    
    Paul
    ----

         
                    
    Wow, I've got somebody plenty pi$$ed by the sounds of it !! 8^)
                                    
    lets stir up some controversy...
    
    RE 29.86. 
    
    I was talking about the technical aspect of guitar playing.              
                                             
    The speed (AND just as importantly, accuracy) that Paul Gilbert, 
    Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Yngwie Malmsteen, Chris Impellitteri, 
    Greg Howe, Vinnie Moore (etc...) play is second to none. They blow 
    away Clapton etc.. for technique (and I really like Clapton).
                                                                 
    Whilst speed is not the deciding factor between a good/bad guitar
    player it is a different matter when incorporating bends, slurs,
    arpeggios, tappng (thats easy anyway - got to a local music store
    on a Saturday afternoon and you'll see tons of 14 years olds doing
    it), cross picking, sweep picking - all whilst playing at mach-10, 
    it shows the type of ability that the average popular guitar player 
    could only dream of.                                         
                                                                 
    The "performance" rock guitar player (like the ones mentioned above)
    have a knowledge of theory, scales, picking, fingering, modes,
    harmonies, structure and arrangement that would make Hendrix turn
    in his grave !                                                  
                                                                    
    My comment was not on their MUSIC as such (I don't particularly like
    all the speed demons, I'd rather listen to Clapton or Page more than
    Greg Howe for example) but technically they blow away any country,
    folk, classical or blues guitar player I have ever seen, heard or
    read about. I'm not saying that the rock guitar player has a monopoly
    on the market, but the average rock guitarist would blow the average
    popular guitar play clean out of the water.                  
                                                                 
    But, then again, this is just one mans opinion.              
                                                                 
    -Tony                                                        

    Technique shmechnique, you just have to *feel* a player like Peter
    Green....
    
    
    
    8^)
    
    
    Bob

    
    Have to or HAD to ? 8^)

    
    re: last couple..
    
      If we are talking guitar players then I'll take the last words....
     And those words are Richie Blackmore...
    
    

    
    Yeah, he was great in his time, but methinks DP are flogging a dead
    horse now.
     
    -Tony

    re .90, have to or had to....
    
    Yeah, PG may be somewhat eccentric of late, but his playing lives
    on. 
    
    BG (no relation)

    re.93
    >>   -< Hendrix is/was the man... >-
                      

    Serious department (for a minute)....
    
    Now I won't dispute that for many, Hendrix was the man (I like him
    too), but equally, for many others, Page/Malmsteen/Blackmore or
    whoever is 'the man'.
    
    Now me, although I listen to 'technical' guitarists, the ones I
    like best are those who are saying something to me, or 'reaching
    into themselves' (man) rather than just displaying a blinding turn
    of speed, scale knowledge, etc. I just have to have some kind of
    emotional response, rather than just standing in awe of something.
    
    As such, although I can *appreciate* the speed players, I *love*
    guitarists like Tom Verlaine, Robert Fripp, Chuck Berry, Martin
    Simpson etc etc.
    
    Tongue in cheek (slightly) department...
    
    Talking of speedmerchants in HM being more proficient than, say,
    folkies or country players - I never heard Albert Lee play no HM!!
    
    Bob

    
    	< Note 29.88 by CHEFS::DALLISON "Cocked and Loaded" >
    
>    Greg Howe for example) but technically they blow away any country,
>    folk, classical or blues guitar player I have ever seen, heard or
>    read about. 

	heh heh heh, (or in Heavy Metal parlance agagagagagagag) you've 
    	definately been drinkin', oder??, funniest note of the week, you 
    	can tell how good someone is just by reading about them eh??
    
    	and now it's ROCK guitarists, not Heavy Metal eh??, away an' bile
    	yer heid!.
    
    	Doug (Spurtle)
                 

    
    Did you take English lessons at school my good man ?

    
>>    < Note 29.86 by BUFFER::GOLDSMITH "I'm a Sun King baby!" >
>>                        -< Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! >-

    Steve, nothing more to say ?

    Alright, I'm back.
    
    In retrospect, I think I may have been a little too firey when I wrote
    that note.  I didn't mean to offend anyone.  I'm not apologizing for
    what I said, of course.  I don't know that I have a reply because we're
    getting into another - "_______ rules!!" and "No, _______rules!!"
    
    I was trying to avoid that.  It happens to much in the H_M note.
    I still think that if you were to say, "alright, Mr. Jazz, play a
    rippin' lead", and give him a few minutes, he could come up with
    something a lot faster than if you said, "alright, Mr. Metal, play
    something that makes me go: Yeah... that was really cool."
    
    Sure, there are metal solos that I say "Yeah...that was really cool",
    but there are more that are just fast, which is nice and all, but
    really nothing unique or spectacular.  There are a lot more dudes
    elsewhere that are playing more solos that I say "Yeah...that was
    really cool."  
    
    And in my opinion, that is where its at.  Did I say anything back
    there?  Or did I make no sense at all?
    
    Steve

    
    Well, another point is that guitarists how "specialise" in the field
    of classical or blues (or whatever) don't (often) try and incorporate
    other styles into their playing.
    
    You'd never see BB King kick on a distortion pedal and play at Mach-2
    because the HM/rock genre has got such a bad name that guys like
    him wouldn't want to be associated with the style. but players like
    Randy Rhoads, Yngwie Malmsteen and Chris Impellitteri are HEAVILY
    influenced by (or in some case taught fro MANY years) classical
    guitar. Players like Greg Howe are heavily influenced by blues playing
    and Zakk Wylde (Ozzy Osbournes new guitar player) are heavily into
    Country and Western playing. And instead of sound like a mish-mash
    of rubbish it sounds great. You'd never see Segiova grab a guitar
    and start playing "Eruption" but its not surprising to see Eddie
    Van Halen to grab a gut string guitar and play something by Segiova.
                                                                
    Edward Van Halen made playing the guitar stylish again. As far as
    I can see the guy has done the music industry a real favour. What
    would you rather see, some guy programming a keyboard or drum machine
    and showing his skills as a programmer or a guitar player show real
    skill (and love) for his instrument ?

    AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
    No!!!!!  God, no.  The last thing I want to see is synthesizers take
    over the world.  
    
    I didn't say anything about synthesizers.  What I did say is that most
    jazz players can pick at mach 2, but most metal players can't do
    anything *BUT* pick at mach 2.
    
    BTW, in U2's Rattle in Hum (I'm sorry for bringing them into this, but
    you forced me.  :-) )  BB King does play a distorted lead.   
    So Nananana.  :-)
    
    Second, Eddie is one of those guitarists that I was talking about that
    plays a lot of solos that you can say "Yeah, that was really cool".
    He's not just fast.  He taught himself to play, and created his own
    sound and style.  That's what sets him apart from most metalists.
    
    Seeya!
    Steve

    It is the notes you leave out, not the ones you cram in, that makes
    a piece.
    
    juju
    xxxx
    

    
    We were not discussing the writing ability of a guitarist, we are
    discussing the TECHNICAL aspect of playing.

>    < Note 29.104 by SUBURB::COLEJ "surprised by reality!" >
>
>
>    It is the notes you leave out, not the ones you cram in, that makes
>    a piece.
>    
>    juju
>    xxxx
 
    
    Does that mean that if I don't play anything at all, I'm a shit-hot
    guitar-player? Great idea...
    
    

    
    re -1
    		In the case of some players yes....there are certain 
    name guitarists that would sound much better if they left all the notes
    out.
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.
    

    
    Yeah, I know the ones you mean.
    
    They should trying playing rock guitar instead 8^).

    Actually.....Ahem....I don't know how to put this but...
    
    Country guitarists are among the best for speed & acuracy.
    
    They tend to use a clean sound which is not very forgiving, the scalic
    paterns are generally more complex than the metal ones, every note is
    picked (as oppose to hammers, pulloffs & taps) & they folow the backing
    more (as opposed to running a partial scalic pattern that fits all).
    
    If you don't believe me listen to some Chet Atkins, Albert "country boy"
    Lee, Alman Bros, Outlaws, Marshall Tucker Band.
    
    Jeff Beck says he's recently turned onto these guys....
    
    I got into em' years ago & they brought my playing on leaps & bounds
    (esp the Outlaws...thy sort of taught the Eagles how to do it but are
    heavier & more Rootsy).
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.
    

    
    I've seen the likes of Chet Atkins and Albert Lee and they are very
    good.
             
    But by sticking to picking are they not limiting their repertoire
    slightly ? Also, most of these country heads play nothing *but* 
    country, thus limiting their understanding of other styles and 
    influences somewhat. I'm not putting country music down, I just
    don't see how, in terms of technique, it can compare.
                                                       
    -Tony                                               

    Fast guitarists????? You ain't seen nothing till you've seen Gedge
    playing the new Wedding Present numbers....he plays so fast it hurts,
    or is that emmotion on his face? Anyway, his fingers were bleeding
    after one of their recent gigs.
    
    B

    
    But Metal is extremly limited in it's use of the instrument, I grant
    you that occasionally you get a "different" formula stuck on an album
    like an accouistic start or a solo track or something but thats about
    the extent of it.
    
    	If you really mean to include the whole of Rock which encompasses 
    just about every thing from Billy Joel to Megadeath then I would agree
    that the offerings are vast & various, but metal is just a small part
    of all that. 
    
    	Don't get me wrong here, I happen to like a lot of metal, thrash
    leaves me wondering a bit, but I can see where the attraction is.
    I've played in metal bands, in particular a metal cover band where I
    was expected to rip off Van Halen, Blackmoore, Gary Moore, to name but
    a few....I once had to play all three parts to Freebird on my tod.
    It was not a problem really just a bit of practise & finding out the
    right tricks to employ.  I can do all that & I'm not a particularly
    good guitarist.
    
    		The reason I'm not a good guitarist is....
    
    	 I can't rip off Joe Pass or pick up a piece of Bach & play
    it, I can't work out The Clap by Steve Howe or Country Boy by Albert
    Lee & I can't even comprehend which planet Jon Schofield is on.
    
    	I've been offered bits session work in my time but it's all heavy
    stuff...the National Youth Jazz Orchestra wouldn't trust me to polish
    the brass section & I doubt that they would Malmsteen or Vai either.
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.

    
   >> But Metal is extremely limited in it's use of the instrument, I grant
      
    Why is it limited ? Its no more limited then any other guitar style.
    At the end of the day you play notes - be it picked with a flat
    pick, picked with the finger, hammer on, pull off, tap with your
    right hand or whatever. Metal incorporates more styles THAN ANY
    OTHER (neck on the line here time).
     
    It is not uncommon for guitarists to incorporate classical (Randy
    Rhoads, Yngwie Malmseem, Chris Impelitterri), blues (Greg Howe, Paul 
    Gilbet, Vito Brata), country (Zakk Wylde), jazz (Joe Satriani, Steve
    Vai) into their own styles.
         
    Many Guitar players used to teach non-rock styles before moving into
    the "elite" group of rock players. 
    
    Many peoples problem is, that many people dislike THE IMAGE of metal.
    That image is that :-
       
    o  all metal fans as headbangers <I find this act extremely ugly and
       you would not ever catch me doing it>, 
       
    o  drug addicts <nevertouch the stuff>, 
       
    o  sexually inadequate <never had any complaints 8^) >, 
       
    o  youths who will "grow out of if" <rubbish! My mom is 42 and an
       avid rock fan>.
       
    etc.. etc..
    
    People just don't see the TALENT that is overshadowed by the 
    ridiculous image created by people who are convinced that metal 
    is evil and dirty, and non-musical. 
                                        
    -Tony                               

    
    While I've got the bit between my teeth I thought stick this in....
    
    Big Jim Sullivan of Eddie Cochran fame can play anything from classical
    to Mach 2 metal...hardly ever heard of but one of the best session guys
    in the world.
    
    	The guy out of Sutherland bros. & quiver (forget his name)gives 
    lessons to most of the top guys in America (I thought I read he taught 
    Arlen Roth but I could be wrong).
    
    Ever hear Sacha Distelle (SP?) aged singing French hearthrob from the
    early 70'S ?  A PHENOMINAL player....I saw him do a jazz piece using a 
    Les Paul & boy did he go!!!!
    
    Ever heard Glen Campbell play....?   I saw him do McArthur park, he
    extended the upbeat "bridge" bit while he picked up a Les Paul & did
    the most amazing solo...I mean runs & tapping, falling off harmonics
    & such feeling too....blew me away & I can't stand the bloke.  He also
    did the old Mason Williams Classical Gas as well, played the classical
    bit, swapped to electric to do astounding solo over the middle 8, back
    to acoustic to finish.  First time I ever saw tapping & that must be 15
    plus years ago.
    
    Finally Tommy Tudesco....American session player, aging old fat guy,
    played the TV theme to Mash & Rockford Files, in fact he does loads 
    of TV & film work recently described by Zappa as probably the best 
    guitarist he ever worked with (from Zappa interview on Channel 4 a
    month or so ago).
    
    	Broaden your horizons people...you'll be amazed.
    
    Cheers
    	Pete	
    

                      
    The guitarists you are coming out with sound very, very good.
                      
    We could go on forever throwing names it each other. So, I will 
    summarise my point and leave it at that.
                                            
    My *opinion* is ...                     
         
    o  Your average rock guitarist is technically more accomplished then
       your average popular guitarist (not going to be specific here).
                                                    
    o  Your average rock guitarist is capable of playing, and appreciating,
       a wider variety of styles than you average non-rock guitar players.
                                               
    o  Your average rock guitarist has nicer hair  8^) x 343434
                                               
    Have a nice day 8*),
    -Tony

    
    Re .113
    
    Please open your eyes Tony.....
    
    	I see the talent there & I AM a rock nay HM fan.
    
    I used to be just like you & say all the same things (sorry to sound
    patronising I don't mean to be).  As I became exposed to more musical
    styles realised how blind I'd been.  I don't sterotype anyone & those
    images of HM fans are not ones I identify with.
    
    HM does not incorporate all styles it steals the bits that fit the
    mould (like John Lord sticking 12 bars of Bach into Fireball).
    
    HM is limited by definition it gets its sound by being musically
    dominent (ie straight major/minor chord progressions), never any
    12/8 or 3/4 times only 4/4, solos based on the ionian or aolean with
    the pentatonic as a back stop cos it fits about anywhere, 4th/5th 
    chordal intervals.
    
    But if one started using much outside this formula it would loose the feel
    & tend toward another form of music.
    
    	I'm trying to save you time here....really... Broaden your horizons
    a bit and your playing will come on 1000% I promise.  I wasted so much
    time myself I know.
    
    	Cheers
    		Pete.
    
    P.S. I still play metal & blues for my own pleasure.
    
    

               
    I appreciate the concern, but I am not a pure rock guitar player
    myself.    
               
    I am currently taking lessons in fingerpicking blues/folk and I
    also play classical stuff on my nylon strung acoustic too. Whilst
    I am no Segiova, I DO keep my eyes open to playing, and appreciating,
    other styles. (Just bought a book by Juan Martin and the cd, and
    am currently working through the book, song by song). Once I have 
    the time, I intend to look up a good jazz guitar tutor, but at the
    moment by (rock) band, blues lessons and (self-taught) classical 
    studys are taking up all my guitar playing time.
                                  
    -Tony  ( not a 100% metalhead after all this! )   

    Re - several notes .
    
    Gedge of the weddo's is possibly the most heavy handed guitar
    slaughterer  i have had the misfortune to see and hear.
    
    But I like them !
    
    juju
    xxxx
    

    RE a few back...
    
    Country guitarists don't limit themselves by just playing country,
    
    They play country AND western.

    
    Groooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

    
    
    OK. I've read the majoriy of the replys in this conference and not
    anyone is totally correct, and here's why:-
    
    1). Classical guitarists are or need to be the most technical
    because the music they play is profoundly more complex than
    most Rock/HM. Saying that most HM guitarists are classically
    trained so it's a grey area but I'd still say Classical guitarists
    have and edge.
    
    2). When it comes to versatility it basically depends on experience
    and knowledge of different styles and the guitarists ability to 
    feel with a sound. A great example is Slash, he's an average guitarist
    (professional wise - even admitted it!) but boy can he feel for a
    song and complement it to make it (in some cases) a masterpiece.
    
    3). It doesn't matter what you know as much or how you play it, but
    whether it fits the song and at the end of the day when you've 
    listened to it so many times its still gives you a hard-on!
    
    Generally a guitarist is renound for something be it slide, speed
    harmony or for having the meanest axe in existence. So trying to
    say whether HM guitarists are better than country (apparently 
    James Hetfield digs country licks - but that another story)
    or whatever is irrelevant, even with particular guitarists.
    
    Tony.C.
    

    
    I started this discussion 4 years ago, mainly as a winde up, I
    think its probably died a death by now.