Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Hi Dave.

    One of the best books I've ever read is called _Worship_ by 
    Evelyn Underhill.  I heard it was out of print, but I found
    it on www.amazon.com.
    
    Worship, I define as:  The celebration of one's association with
    a diety.

    Singing, dancing in the sun or the moonlight, eating bread and 
    drinking wine - however you want to express it, it is your attitude
    towards what you're doing that is worship.

    Tom

Below is the Westminster Confession of Faith which is a summarization of
    the major doctrines of the Bible.  This chapter should answer many of
    your questions about Christian worship, some indirectly.  The
    numbers in brackets in the paragraphs are references for Scriptural 
    proof texts, located after the confession, at the bottom.
    
Chapter XXI

Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and
sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to
be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all
the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the
acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so
limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according
to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under
any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy
Scripture.[2]

II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other
creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the
mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious
worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted,
it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9]
according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility,
fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known
tongue.[12]

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men
living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for
those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound
preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God,
with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace
in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of
the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary
religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn
fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in
their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious
manner.[26]

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under
the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which
it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be
worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private
families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more
solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to
be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calls
thereunto.[33]

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time
be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral,
and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly
appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34]
which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was
the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed
into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the
Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the
Christian Sabbath.[37]

[1] ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ACT 17:24 God
that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of
heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. PSA 119:68 Thou
art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. JER 10:7 Who would not
fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as
among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is
none like unto thee. PSA 31:23 O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the
Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. PSA
18:3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be
saved from mine enemies. ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the
Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call
upon him. PSA 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your
heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. JOS 24:14 Now therefore
fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the
gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in
Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. MAR 12:33 And to love him with all the heart,
and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the
strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole
burnt offerings and sacrifices.

[2] DEU 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt
not add thereto, nor diminish from it. MAT 15:9 But in vain they do worship
me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. ACT 17:25 Neither is
worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he
giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. MAT 4:9 And saith unto him,
All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (see
also DEU 15:-19) EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the
earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not
bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a
jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto
the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy
unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[3] MAT 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is
written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou
serve. JOH 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the
Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath
sent him. 2CO 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of
God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[4] COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility
and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not
seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind. REV 19:10 And I fell at his
feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy
fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:
worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. ROM 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the
creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[5] JOH 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and
one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. EPH 2:18 For
through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. COL 3:17 And
whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[6] PHI 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and
supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

[7] PSA 65:6 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded
with power.

[8] JOH 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that
the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my
name, I will do it. 1PE 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a
spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[9] ROM 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know
not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh
intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[10] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we
ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[11] PSA 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with
understanding. ECC 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God,
and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they
consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not
thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven,
and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we
receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we
may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: GEN 17:27 And all
the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the
stranger, were circumcised with him. JAM 5:16 Confess your faults one to
another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual
fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. JAM 1:6 But let him ask in
faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea
driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall
receive any thing of the Lord. MAR 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What
things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye
shall have them. MAT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our
debtors. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. COL 4:2 Continue in
prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; EPH 6:18 Praying always
with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with
all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[12] 1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful.

[13] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we
ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[14] 1TI 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications,
prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For
kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and
peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. JOH 17:20 Neither pray I for
these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their
word. 2SA 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy
servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord God,
hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be
blessed for ever. RUT 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez,
whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of
this young woman.

[15] 2SA 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that
thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive;
but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said,
While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell
whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he
is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to
him, but he shall not return to me. LUK 16:25 But Abraham said, Son,
remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise
Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so
that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass
to us, that would come from thence. REV 14:13 And I heard a voice from
heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their
labours; and their works do follow them.

[16] 1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,
he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] ACT 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. REV 1:3 Blessed is he
that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those
things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

[18] 2TI 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[19] JAM 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving
your own selves. ACT 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou
hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present
before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. MAT 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not,
then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his
heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. HEB 4:2 For unto us
was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did
not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. ISA 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith
the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a
contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

[20] COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual
songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. EPH 5:19 Speaking to
yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making
melody in your heart to the Lord. JAM 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let
him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

[21] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 1CO 11:23
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That
the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And
when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my
body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the
same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is
the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in
remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this
cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall
eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty
of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so
let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. ACT 2:42 And they
continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in
breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[22] DEU 6:13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt
swear by his name. NEH 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles,
and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was
given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the
commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes.

[23] ISA 19:21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians
shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea,
they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it. ECC 5:4 When thou
vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in
fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest
not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

[24] JOE 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with
all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning. EST
4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast
ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and
my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is
not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish. MAT 9:15 And Jesus
said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the
bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall
be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 1CO 7:5 Defraud ye not one
the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give
yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt
you not for your incontinency.

[25] (PSA 107 throughout) EST 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from
their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy,
and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of
feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the
poor.

[26] HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let
us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly
fear.

[27] JOH 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,
when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the
Father.

[28] MAL 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of
the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place
incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name
shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. 1TI 2:8 I will
therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath
and doubting.

[29] JOH 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh
such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.

[30] JER 10:25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and
upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob,
and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.
DEU 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine
heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt
talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the
way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. JOB 1:5 And it was
so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and
sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt
offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that
my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job
continually. 2SA 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering
burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of
the Lord of hosts. 20 Then David returned to bless his household. And
Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious
was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of
the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly
uncovereth himself! 1PE 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them
according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker
vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers
be not hindered. ACT 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all
his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

[31] MAT 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

[32] MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy
Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. EPH 6:18 Praying
always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching
thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[33] ISA 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the
Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants,
every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my
covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them
joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house
of prayer for all people. HEB 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of
ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another:
and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. PRO 1:20 Wisdom crieth
without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief
place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth
her words, saying. 24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have
stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. 8:34 Blessed is the man that
heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
ACT 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles
besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. LUK
4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his
custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for
to read. ACT 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[34] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh
day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six
days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and
rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and
hallowed it. ISA 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of
man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and
keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the
eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and
take hold of my covenant. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join
themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to
be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and
taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their
sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be
called an house of prayer for all people.

[35] GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And
God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had
rested from all his work which God created and made. 1CO 16:1 Now
concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the
churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let
every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there
be no gatherings when I come. ACT 20:7 And upon the first day of the week,
when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them,
ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[36] REV 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a
great voice, as of a trumpet.

[37] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh
day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. MAT 5:17 Think
not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.

    Submission, falling prostrate, and kissing the feet of God out of pure
    love, adoration, and gratitude.

    RE: .2

    1. I don't like really long messages.  I don't tend to read
    them

    2. In you own words, what do you think worship is?

    RE: .3 Mike

    I can think of worse places to be..... :-)

    Tom

    Ummmm... yes Jeff.  Could you summarize .2 a bit.  The very first
    sentence of section "I" was so badly run-on that I had to read it
    twice.  Sentence 2 was no better.  Considering the daunting task of
    reading several hundred more lines of that, I stopped right there.
    Thank you for posting it.  I may read it when I get the time.  But, 
    as Tom asked, can you describe what YOU think worship is?

    Mike:  Does God really want all that?  How would you feel if someone 
    you loved was groveling at your feet like that?  Did God make man so
    that he would have someone to worship him?
    
    Tom:  Evelyn Underhill.  There's that name again.  I went to B&N and
    there was only one book by her.  A very large volume which appeared to
    cover all of mysticism.  I'll go to Harvard Square.  Maybe I'll have
    better luck there.
                                              
    -dave

    
    .2 is a summary itself.  The actual summarization of Christian worship is 
    only five or six paragraphs (3 screens); the remainder of the note 
    contains the Scripture proof texts.  I should have said so when I 
    entered the note - sorry about that.  
    
    The Confession is so succinct and such an accurate summarization of
    Bible doctrines that any words I might add would be truly superfluous.
    I encourage you to take the time to read it, even if it's difficult.
    
    jeff
    
    
    
    

>    Mike:  Does God really want all that?  How would you feel if someone 
>    you loved was groveling at your feet like that?  Did God make man so
>    that he would have someone to worship him?

    Does God want that?  If it filled us with joy and happiness,
    why not?

    Small kids.  As a parent they jump all over you, make big noises
    all around you and adore you through and through.  They are worshipping
    you.  You are god to them.

    There have been times they *have* thrown themselves at my feet.
    Often it's a temper tantrum.  But it's what they had to do then.
    Not for  *my* sake, but theirs.

    Despite my best efforts, they no longer think I'm god.  :-(
    But, in their playing, I hope I haven't gotten too much in
    the way of their learning how to worship.

    Tom

    >    Mike:  Does God really want all that?  How would you feel if someone 
>    you loved was groveling at your feet like that?  Did God make man so
>    that he would have someone to worship him?

    Biblically,  YES.  Look at how *believers* treated God the Son while on
    earth.  What did Christ say about the woman who washed His feet with
    her tears?  Those who worshiped Christ brought glory to Him and the
    Father and it pleases Him.

    Well, it's just that I can't imagine an omnipotent God "wanting" or
    "needing" anything at all, including worship.  Worship brings glory to
    God?  Does God need people to bring him glory?  CAn't he get it for
    himself?  If God wanted glory, then why wouldn't he just take it, or
    create it or something?  
    
    What Tom said about worship bringing the person joy is interesting. 
    I'll have to digest that one tonight on the way home.
    
    
    -dave

    I think you'll find Scriptural support for some of what Tom refers to. 
    It pleases God and gives Him joy when His children worship Him.

    Tom:
    
    I understand your question though.  It's kind of the same question I
    think of when Jesus compares the church to a bride.  Since Jesus was a
    male, the thought is foreign to me.
    
    The idea of worship has to transcend human thought, since God asks this
    of us.  I have to believe by faith that it will be as natural as
    breathing is to us...or as natural as a person who's life just got
    saved on the brink of distruction.  Have you ever felt greatful..I mean
    truly greatful to sombody for a kind act?!  I have and not
    even to the extent that others have...somebody rescued from Auschwitz
    for example!  
    
    I believe this is how we will react to God.  It is in that sense that I
    look forward to seeing Him.  As a human, I have reservations,
    aprehensions...that sort of thing...mainly because it represents change
    which we are not accustomed to or comfortable with!
    
    -Jack

Z    Well, it's just that I can't imagine an omnipotent God "wanting" or
Z    "needing" anything at all, including worship.  Worship brings glory
Z    to God?  Does God need people to bring him glory?  CAn't he get it for
Z    himself?  If God wanted glory, then why wouldn't he just take it,
Z    or create it or something?
    
    It's not that he needs it, it is that he covets it!  I see this similar
    to somebody who covets the affections of their mate as opposed to
    somebody else moving in on them.
    
    -Jack

    So what do you suppose came first, God's desire to be worshipped
    (therefor he created man to worship him and fill this desire) or man
    who quite unexpectedly decided to worship God, much to God's delight?
    
    -dave
    

    
    Man was created to worship and enjoy God, his Creator.  Man and God's
    relationship was perfect before Adam sinned against God's direct
    command.  God enjoyed his creation and man enjoyed his life in
    communion with his Creator.
    
    After sin and the fall of humanity, the relationship was shattered as a
    consequence of Adam's sin.  God himself provided a way to restore the
    relationship, though it is different than Adam's but will be like
    Adam's in the end, through faith and trust in God's promise of
    salvation, Christ.  It is a promise full of love and majesty and
    benevolence greater than we could ever imagine.  God sacrificed himself
    in Christ to restore our relationship.  Those who believe worship God in 
    Christ today and will be physically in his presence relatively soon.
    
    jeff

    Worship for me is a direct and immediate encounter with the Divine.
    
    Richard
    

re.15

Richard,

That's it. Plain and simple. This is exactly what the Bible teaches.


Ace

    
    His Holiness The Dalai Lama, was on Larry King Live last night.  He is
    a Buddhist monk who is, at least, the spiritual leader of Tibet.  Later
    Richard Gere, actor and Buddhist, came on.
    
    Larry asked some specific questions about Buddhism; what it means, how
    it is different from other religions such as Christianity and Judaism;
    about Buddha, etc.  
    
    In answer to the question to the Dalai Lama about the most significant
    different between Buddhism and Christianity, say, the Dalai Lama
    answered that Buddhism does not believe in a Creator God while
    Christianity does, of course.
    
    In answer to the question about Buddha's status, the Dalai Lama said
    that he was a man like us.  Through his own efforts he attained
    enlightenment and now has an energy which is available to help those
    who pray to him.
    
    In answer to the question about eternity, the Dalai Lama said that
    life simply recycles.
    
    In answer to the question to Gere about what appealed to him about
    Buddhism and how he adopted it, he answered that in his 20s life was
    not making sense and he was suffering.  He discovered that through the
    practice of Buddhism he had learned to live a meaningful life,
    conquering many of those behaviors and fears (through a science of the
    mind) and was improving overall as a human being.
    
    In terms of the present state of Tibet, the Chinese are attempting to
    banish Buddhism from Tibet (as every other religion since they are
    radical atheists).  Banishing Buddhism means eliminating Tibetan
    culture for they are inseperable which leads to "Chinese" people, I
    guess.  The Chinese have settled over 7 million people in Tibet while
    the Tibetan native population is 6.5 million, which Gere characterised
    as genocide according to the Geneva Conventions.
    
    Anyway, it should be obvious that Buddhists cannot worship God
    since they do not believe in God as God has revealed Himself in the 
    Bible (and in nature, I might add).  It should be apparent that the
    idea so often stated and implied here that God is worshiped by all or
    many of the faiths, such as Buddhism, is impossible according to the
    Bible and Christianity.  Fundamentally Buddhism and Christianity are
    contradictory and contradictory premises cannot both be true.
    
    BTW, the Dalai Lama now lives in northern India.  He does not want an
    independent nation necessarily but self-rule and religious freedom.
    
    jeff

    Jeff.  Your assertions are based on the presumption of biblical
    inerrancy.  I will not disagree with your statement...

    "It should be apparent that the idea so often stated and implied here
    that God is worshiped by all or many of the faiths, such as Buddhism,
    is impossible according to the Bible and Christianity."
                  ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^

    I suppose someone who is more learned in the Bible than I, and someone
    who would be interested in the pursuit might argue that the Bible does
    not discount the possibility that Buddhism is inherently wrong.

    But the more I read, study and learn, the more I take exception to...
    "Fundamentally Buddhism and Christianity are contradictory...".

    You mentioned that the Dalai Lama talked about there being no creator,
    that life cycled.  And I think you're implying that this was in stark
    contradiction to what you read in Genesis.  If you leave it at that...
    an insurmountable barrier, it will remain a barrier.  If you want
    there to be no reconciliation between the two, then you might be
    content with leaving the barrier be.  But if you try to find a way to
    reconcile the two philosophies, then maybe something interesting and
    revealing will pop up.

    I keep talking about Eckhart, and I'll mention him again here.  In his
    day, his teachings were seen as irreconcilable with those of the church.
    He was excommunicated posthumously.  He has since been reinstated in
    the church and is now hailed as the father of Catholic mysticism.
    Someone, some Pope or whoever, somewhere along they way understood that
    Eckhart was looking at the very same God in a very different way.
    Here you have a case of two apparently different views of God (and two
    different interpretations of Scripture I might add) both being accepted
    as valid in the church.  All the differences between the two have yet to
    be ironed out (or understood), but it's clear, at least to the church,
    that Eckhart was in touch with the same God, and so he and his philosophy 
    were accepted.

    I am not presuming that such a reconciliation is at hand between
    Christianity of Buddhism.  But I'd like to think that it's possible. I
    look at the notion of time and realize that we mere humans know very very
    little about it.  Maybe a better understanding of time might resolve the
    differences between the created vs cycling universe.  Look at how our
    understanding of time changed with the Theory of Relativity.  From a
    static thing, it's now known to be variable.  Many things which were seen
    as being undeniably impossible were immediately seen as being possible
    thanks to this new insight.  Why were they impossible before?  Because we
    were too stubborn to admit that our understanding of time might be wrong.
    Why is a created universe irreconcilable with a cyclic one??? 
    
    I think it's something worth looking at.  I'm not content with the 
    barrier.

    -dave

    
    Jesus says those who love the *truth* shall find and follow him. 
    Therefore my primary interest is truth.  And premises which are
    contradictory cannot both be true.  One is false.  The words of Christ
    and the complete Biblical testimony of true and false religion say that
    Buddhism (as well as all other non-Christian religions) are false and
    prevent men from worshiping God in spirit and in truth, the type of
    worshipers He seeks and wants.
    
    jeff

re Note 1348.19 by ALFSS1::BENSONA:

>     And premises which are
>     contradictory cannot both be true.  One is false.  

        While I agree with this in principle, I disagree that any
        human being can be infallible in making such logical
        judgments.

        Sometimes things appear contradictory simply because they are
        not fully (or correctly) understood.

        Especially when things of the spirit and the supernatural are
        concerned, human understanding (and therefore human ability
        to judge contradiction and compatibility between statements)
        is very poor.

        Of course, Jeff, I find your understanding to be especially
        poor (and you probably think similarly of mine). :-}

        Bob

>     And premises which are
>     contradictory cannot both be true.  One is false.  

>        While I agree with this in principle, I disagree that any
>        human being can be infallible in making such logical
>        judgments.
    
    That is why we have revelation from God via His word, the Bible.  Logic
    is very reliable as a test for truth.  It reflects, after all, the
    reality God has created, which is generally constant at the "highest"
    level (except for God's miracles).

        >Sometimes things appear contradictory simply because they are
        >not fully (or correctly) understood.
    
    The difference (which is a pure contradiction) was pointed out by the 
    Buddhist monk.  I could have pointed it out as well.  Buddhism and
    Christianity are well understood as are most religions.

        >Especially when things of the spirit and the supernatural are
        >concerned, human understanding (and therefore human ability
        >to judge contradiction and compatibility between statements)
        >is very poor.
    
    The Lord has made it quite clear that false religion is fatal and along
    with that He has pointed out what false religion is and is not, how to
    respond to it, and how to escape it and its consequences and so on. 
    Again, the significance of God revealing Himself to point such things
    out which would otherwise be difficult, as you suggest, to discern, is
    apparent.  

        >Of course, Jeff, I find your understanding to be especially
        >poor (and you probably think similarly of mine). :-}
    
    That's funny, Bob.  Frankly Bob I don't know much about what you think
    and believe and even less about why you think and believe what you do. 
    "Understanding" is a broad term.  Your understanding is a direct
    reflection of your presuppositions about truth, and in the context of
    religion, a reflection of your presuppositions about the Bible, more or
    less.  In any case, you're not a dumb fellow, I'm sure.
    
    jeff

re Note 1348.21 by ALFSS1::BENSONA:

> >     And premises which are
> >     contradictory cannot both be true.  One is false.  
> 
> >        While I agree with this in principle, I disagree that any
> >        human being can be infallible in making such logical
> >        judgments.
>     
>     That is why we have revelation from God via His word, the Bible.  Logic
>     is very reliable as a test for truth.  

        And how did you come to the conclusion that the Bible is very
        reliable divine revelation?

        "Logic is very reliable as a test for truth" -- but is it
        infallible? (I actually question whether it is *always* "very
        reliable" -- some very smart people took part in the Third
        Reich, for instance.)


>     The difference (which is a pure contradiction) was pointed out by the 
>     Buddhist monk.  I could have pointed it out as well.  Buddhism and
>     Christianity are well understood as are most religions.
  
        Yes, but that "well understanding" is merely human
        understanding -- hardly infallible, and sometimes very wrong.


>     Again, the significance of God revealing Himself to point such things
>     out which would otherwise be difficult, as you suggest, to discern, is
>     apparent.  

        Of course, you are then left with the even more difficult
        task of discerning what is divine revelation.


>     "Understanding" is a broad term.  Your understanding is a direct
>     reflection of your presuppositions about truth, and in the context of
>     religion, a reflection of your presuppositions about the Bible, more or
>     less.  

        Of course, that's the word -- "presuppositions"!  Where do
        presuppositions come from?

        My point is that you can't escape forming your belief systems
        on at least some measure of human understanding -- yours or
        possibly your cult leader's :-} -- unless you've had a full
        lobotomy.  Even to state that "I will follow Jesus (or the
        Bible, or the space ship behind Hale-Bopp)" requires you to
        make a decision *first*.

        It's a house of cards, but it's the best we can do.

        Bob

> >     And premises which are
> >     contradictory cannot both be true.  One is false.  
> 
> >        While I agree with this in principle, I disagree that any
> >        human being can be infallible in making such logical
> >        judgments.
>     
>     That is why we have revelation from God via His word, the Bible.  Logic
>     is very reliable as a test for truth.  

??        And how did you come to the conclusion that the Bible is very
??        reliable divine revelation?
    
    First, because it says it is.  Secondly, because it exhibits divinity
    in its quality.  Thirdly because there's nothing more perfect than a
    written revelation for man's use over time.  Fourthly, because it makes
    truth claims and is internally consistent.  Next, because it's authors
    lived very close to the events which they recorded.  Because it
    explains the universe perfectly.  Because it is the source which led me
    to understand my status before God and what He has done and what I had
    to do, leading to my salvation and a very real change in my life. 
    Because it provides a worldview and system of ethics which are superior
    and of the highest morality.  Because I have tested its truths against
    competing truth claims and it has won.  And so on.

        ??"Logic is very reliable as a test for truth" -- but is it
        ??infallible? (I actually question whether it is *always* "very
        ??reliable" -- some very smart people took part in the Third
        ??Reich, for instance.)
    
    One need not fret over the reality grasped between "very reliable and 
    completely infallible".  Religious themes and concepts and practices and 
    beliefs are so well-articulated that they are easy to test with logic,
    especially testing across systems (Buddhism and Christianity, for
    example).


>     The difference (which is a pure contradiction) was pointed out by the 
>     Buddhist monk.  I could have pointed it out as well.  Buddhism and
>     Christianity are well understood as are most religions.
  
        ??Yes, but that "well understanding" is merely human
        ??understanding -- hardly infallible, and sometimes very wrong.
    
    The point is that it is relatively simple to test the claims of each
    for contradiction. 


>     Again, the significance of God revealing Himself to point such things
>     out which would otherwise be difficult, as you suggest, to discern, is
>     apparent.  

        ??Of course, you are then left with the even more difficult
        ??task of discerning what is divine revelation.
    
    The Bible is, for the reasons I stated above.  


>     "Understanding" is a broad term.  Your understanding is a direct
>     reflection of your presuppositions about truth, and in the context of
>     religion, a reflection of your presuppositions about the Bible, more or
>     less.  

        ??Of course, that's the word -- "presuppositions"!  Where do
        ??presuppositions come from?

        ??My point is that you can't escape forming your belief systems
        ??on at least some measure of human understanding -- yours or
        ??possibly your cult leader's :-} -- unless you've had a full
        ??lobotomy.  Even to state that "I will follow Jesus (or the
        ??Bible, or the space ship behind Hale-Bopp)" requires you to
        ??make a decision *first*.
    
    Yes, but the decision is based, in my case anyway, upon the gospel of
    Jesus Christ found in the Bible which has some supernatural
    accoutrements.

        ??It's a house of cards, but it's the best we can do.
    
    It's a house of cards to build the presupposition on anything but that
    a personal God exists, at a minimum.

    jeff

    Re .19 (Jeff)
    
    >Therefore my primary interest is truth.
    
    Mine too.
    
    
    
    >The words of Christ and the complete Biblical testimony of true and
    >false religion say that Buddhism ... are false...
    
    I don't think the Bible mentions Buddhism anywhere.  I think that
    "Anyone who does (Jesus') father's work is (his) brother".  I think
    that had they lived in the same time and place, they would have found
    each other to be kindred spirits.  I don't believe that God would place
    entire populations at a spiritual disadvantage by virtue of
    inaccessibility to a book.  But of course, this is a non-inerrant view.
    
    
    I've read .21 and .23 and felt an urge to start another battle.  But I
    won't because we've debated over all of this in the past and got
    nowhere.
    
    I remember a quote that goes something like...
    
    "When one's words are no better than silence, one should remain
    silent".
    
    Shhhhhhh.......
    
    
    -dave
    
    

    
    >The words of Christ and the complete Biblical testimony of true and
    >false religion say that Buddhism ... are false...
    
    >>I don't think the Bible mentions Buddhism anywhere.  
    
    It doesn't matter if the Bible doesn't mention Buddhism specifically,
    and I'm not picking on Buddhism anyway, it mentions directly and
    indirectly throughout false religions which are any religion which does
    not worship the Creator as he has revealed himself in nature and
    throughout history as recorded in the Bible. 
    
    >I think that
    >"Anyone who does (Jesus') father's work is (his) brother".  
    
    But that can't be those who say the Father is not personal.
    
    >I think
    >that had they lived in the same time and place, they would have found
    >each other to be kindred spirits.  
    
    I know they would not.  Buddha was a practical atheist.  That wouldn't
    have gone over well with God.  Buddha would have needed to repent and
    believe in Christ just as you or I.
    
    >I don't believe that God would place
    >entire populations at a spiritual disadvantage by virtue of
    >inaccessibility to a book.  But of course, this is a non-inerrant view.
    
    It is not only an errantist view but it is not even closely related
    to a reasonable biblical view.
    
    
    >I've read .21 and .23 and felt an urge to start another battle.  But I
    >won't because we've debated over all of this in the past and got
    >nowhere.
    
    Restraint is a good thing.
    
    jeff    
    

       <<< LGP30::RJF$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 895.0                  Christianity and Buddhism                  8 replies
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Most Dangerous Child"              9 lines  11-APR-1994 16:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surprisingly, to me, we don't already have a topic discussing
    Christianity and Buddhism.
    
    To the best of my present knowledge, Buddhism doesn't deal with
    salvation or have an afterlife bonus plan.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Re .25 (Jeff)
    
    
    I found exception to everything you said in .25, save the last...
    
    >    Restraint is a good thing.
    
    
    -dave

    Vatican II on one aspect of Buddhism (and others).  A quasi-acceptance 
    of other approaches which "...reflect a ray of that Truth which
    enlightens all men".

    On the Relation to Non-Christian Religions...
    
    2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various
    peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the
    course of things and over the events of human history; at times some
    indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a
    Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a
    profound religious sense. 

    Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have
    struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined
    concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men
    contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible
    abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They
    seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through
    ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love
    and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical
    insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men,
    in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the
    state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through
    higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found
    everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in
    its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of
    life, and sacred rites. 

    The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these
    religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and
    of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many
    aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often
    reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she
    proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ, "the way the truth, and the
    life" (John 14, 6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious
    life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself (4). 

    The Church therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and
    collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with
    prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they
    recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral,
    as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men. 

    
    At least several things are clear from the stuff you entered:  Roman
    Catholics consider Buddhism a Non-Christian religion.
    
    Secondly, Roman Catholics do not intend to suggest equality before God
    of the Buddhist and the RC.  RCs are to witness to Christ as,
    presumably, the only Savior and Lord God of the universe but in a
    prudent and respectful manner, a tact which no one may argue with, in my
    opinion.  Also RCs are to utilize what is good in the culture and
    system, in their estimation, as a context for teaching and expressing 
    the truth of Christ, even in contradiction to pagan truths where
    necessary, I suspect.
    
    No where does it imply to me that non-Christian religions are
    worshiping God in a true sense but that the truth of God's existence is
    illustrated in their worship of their gods.
    
    jeff

    OK Jeff.  Try again.  Try to find "something" conciliatory in what was
    said in the Vatican II excerpt.  

    The only reason I posted it was because I know that you give my
    opinions on this matter no credence at all.  I thought that maybe a
    statement from Rome might carry a little more weight.
    
    -dave

.30

>    The only reason I posted it was because I know that you give my
>    opinions on this matter no credence at all.  I thought that maybe a
>    statement from Rome might carry a little more weight.

Many who call themselves Christian see Rome as an enemy, if not *the*
enemy, of the true Christian faith.

Richard