| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1248.1 | To be discerned by those who are spiritual | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:16 | 40 |
| Reply to Jack's 1246.35
Paul does a wonderful job of describing the Holy Spirit in 1
Corinthians 2.
There is a deep truth revealed in these words. I know they are truth
not because they are in the Bible, but because I intuitively feel them as
truth.
I appreciate many such gold mines within the scripture.
The Bible Gateway
1 Corinthians 2 (English-RSV)
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed
before the ages for our glorification.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they
would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the
heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,"
10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches
everything, even the depths of God.
11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man
which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except
the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which
is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by
the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the
Spirit.
14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God,
for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them
because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no
one.
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we
have the mind of Christ.
|
| 1248.2 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:22 | 11 |
|
The question is more correctly posed as "who is the Holy Spirit?" I don't
have my Bible with me, but Jesus in John 14, I believe, gave a wonderful
description of person of the Holy Spirit.
|
| 1248.3 | John 14:17 | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:36 | 9 |
| www.gospelcom.net/bible
The Bible Gateway
John 14 (English-RSV)
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it
neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you,
and will be in you.
|
| 1248.4 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:44 | 16 |
|
Try John 14:16-28 or so.
This passage not only equates Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one and the same
(verse 16 "I will send another comforter") but also the truth behind the
inspiration of Scripture (He will teach you all things and bring to your
remembrance all that I have taught you).
One of my favorite passages of Scripture.
Jim
|
| 1248.5 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:50 | 13 |
|
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be
with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him,
because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives
with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come
to you." (John 14:16-18) "the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the
Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you
of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26 NIV)
It is important to note that Jesus is speaking to His disciples alone.
The Holy Spirit is only given to those who have trusted in Christ to save
them.
|
| 1248.6 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Wed Jul 31 1996 16:00 | 14 |
| Z There is a deep truth revealed in these words. I know they are truth
Z not because they are in the Bible, but because I intuitively feel
Z them as truth.
Not meant as a dig but more as an observation. Patricia, this is the
best sumnation of you that I have ever seen...the very thing that will
ultimately become your downfall. Feelings and faith are mutually
exclusive. A very dangerous road to tow.
The Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is who God the Father
sees within us that makes us righteous in the eyes of a Holy God.
Without the Holy Spirit, we are unmarked and left in darkness.
-Jack
|
| 1248.7 | | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Wed Jul 31 1996 16:12 | 4 |
| > Feelings and faith are mutually exclusive.
What other word rather than feeling would you use to describe communing
with the Spirit of God who dwells within?
|
| 1248.8 | To know God or to be known by God | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Wed Jul 31 1996 16:16 | 14 |
|
> It is important to note that Jesus is speaking to His disciples alone.
> The Holy Spirit is only given to those who have trusted in Christ to save
> them.
Do we receive the Holy Spirit because we believe first or do we believe
because we have received the Holy Spirit?
Do we know God before we believe or do we believe because we are known
by God?
Is the Holy Spirit available to all or only to those who believe the
Bible to be the word of God?
|
| 1248.9 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Wed Jul 31 1996 16:55 | 26 |
| Z Do we receive the Holy Spirit because we believe first or do we believe
Z because we have received the Holy Spirit?
"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted
Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation:in who also that ye believed, you
were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise."
This verse was written to the church in Ephesus and clearly points out
some characteristics of having the Holy Spirit...
-First we must hear the word of truth. What is the word of truth? It
is the gospel of salvation. The gospel of salvation is given to us
through his word and his word only.
-After hearing, we can believe, or disbelieve.
-If we believe, we trust. This is where faith comes in.
It is only after these points that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit
of promise. So there is clearly action required on the part of the
person hearing the message. If I went by my feelings, then I would
believe the opposite; I have learned that this sort of method can lead
to faulty presuppositions.
-Jack
|
| 1248.10 | | ALFSS1::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Jul 31 1996 16:58 | 22 |
|
> There is a deep truth revealed in these words. I know they are truth
> not because they are in the Bible, but because I intuitively feel them as
> truth.
> I appreciate many such gold mines within the scripture.
Patricia,
Here again you swing wildly between presenting an objective truth and a
relative truth thus contradicting yourself in the same breath. On the
one hand you want us to pay attention because, "there is a deep truth
revealed in these words." So you position Paul's words in this passage as
being true for everyone. Then you turn right around and say that these
passages are not true for everyone but only for you. And if you don't
say this exactly you say it in so many words. What is "intuitively"
true for you has no value for me or anyone else, and certainly
cannot be important in a religious or metaphysical sense. This is one
example of how you are consistently contradicting yourself. Yet you
seem to care not.
jeff
|
| 1248.11 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Wed Jul 31 1996 17:01 | 27 |
| Z What other word rather than feeling would you use to describe communing
Z with the Spirit of God who dwells within?
I'm not communicating properly here...my apologies.
Moses had a choice. He could stay in the palace and enjoy the
pleasures of his natural being, or he could join his brothers in
bondage in order to reach communion with God.
Joseph could have taken on the natural desires of his flesh, or he
could have ended up in a cold, damp prison communing with God.
Paul the apostle could have communed in darkness by staying a
pharisee...deep in the knowledge of scripture without wisdom, or he
could have chosen the path he did...communing with the true God under
the guise of suffering and persecution.
Point: Warm and fuzzies do not always work in harmony with communing
with God; therefore, we shouldn't look in this method to find
fellowship with God. Real communion with a Holy God may, as our
friends above found, cause great injustice, persecution and pain in
your life.
The Son of Man has no place to rest his head. Are you prepared to
drink of the cup he drank from??
-Jack
|
| 1248.12 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Wed Jul 31 1996 17:06 | 18 |
| The Holy Spirit, as God, is unchanging (Mal 3:6) and is the source of all
Scripture.
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about
from the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin
in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by
the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet 1:20-21)
Since they are guided by the Holy Spirit and since He doesn't change, all
that the prophets have written must be consistent with all that is written
by every other prophet that preceded him and every prophet that followed.
If we speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit, we too will be
consistent with the Scriptures.
Could God allow a passage with such ramifications to be part of His word
if it wasn't true?
Michael
|
| 1248.13 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Wed Jul 31 1996 17:19 | 12 |
| It is the Holy Spirit that actually attests to, preaches, and convicts of
the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone.
"It was revealed to them (the prophets) that they were not serving
themselves but you (believers in Christ), when they spoke of the things
that have now been told you by those who have *PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO YOU
BY THE HOLY SPIRIT* sent from heaven." (1 Pet 1:12 NIV)
But the Holy Spirit does not indwell us until we accept and trust in His
message.
Michael
|
| 1248.14 | | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Wed Jul 31 1996 17:32 | 28 |
| Jeff,
My statements is not contradictory. It is consistent with my
understanding of Truth.
1. Truth is absolute.
2. Our understanding of truth is relative.
In communicating with those who think differently than I, I first
attempt to establish common ground.
i.e. my agreement with you that there is truth in those words of Paul.
The second statement, which I agree is subjective is how I know those
words to be true. Each person intuits truth differently. Each person
understand truth only partially. Each of us understands these things
only dimly.
Jack,
I have no idea what you are trying to say? Can you try again to answer
my two questions?
Thanks,
Patricia
|
| 1248.15 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Wed Jul 31 1996 17:46 | 23 |
| Gosh, I thought it was clear.
The Holy Spirit can only dwell a believer. The Holy Spirit also acts
as a mark of righteousness. A seal, as understood in Roman times, was
a mark of ownership. The Holy Spirit does not dwell within a non
believer. First we must hear the message of truth, believe it, and
trust in the message...that being the gospel of Christ. It is then and
only then the Spirit of God dwells within us.
Z What other word rather than feeling would you use to describe communing
Z with the Spirit of God who dwells within?
The answer is I don't have another word...which as I said, I didn't
communicate properly. The answer I was trying to convey is that
communing with God can take place, not only when you experience joy but
also when you experience the heights of injustice, persecution, and
suffering just as Moses, Joseph, and Paul did.
If you were in one of these modes of suffering, would you be able to
say, "I am communing with God?" Moses et.al. did do this because they
relied strictly on their faith and not their feelings.
-Jack
|
| 1248.16 | Veni, Creator Spiritus | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:01 | 12 |
| Come, Holy Ghost our souls inspire, Anoint and cheer our soiled face
And lighten with celestial fire. With the abundance of thy grace.
Thou the anointing Spirit art, Keep far our foes, give peace at home;
Who dost thy sevenfold gifts impart. Where thou art guide, no ill can come.
Thy blessed unction from above Teach us to know Father, Son,
Is comfort life and fire of love. And thee, of both, to be but One;
Enable with perpetual light That through their ages all along,
The dullness of our blinded sight. This may be our endless song:
Praise to thy eternal merit,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
|
| 1248.17 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:05 | 42 |
| From the Catechetical Instructions of Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem [386]
"The water that I shall give you will become in you a fountain of living
water, welling up into eternal life." This is a new kind of water, a living,
leaping water, welling up for those who are worthy. But why did Christ call
the grace of the Spirit water? Because all things are dependent on water;
plants and animals have their origin in water. Water comes down from heaven
as rain, and although it is always the same in itself, it produces many
different effects, one in the palm tree, another in the vine, and so on
throughout the whole of creation. It does not come down, now as one thing,
now as another, but while remaining essentially the same, it adapts itself
to the needs of every creature that receives it.
In the same way the Holy Spirit, whose nature is always the same, simple and
indivisible, apportions grace to each as the Spirit wills. Like a dry tree
which puts forth shoots when watered, the soul bears the fruit of holiness
when repentance has made it worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit. Although
the Spirit never changes, the effects of the Spirit's action, by the will
of God and in the name of Christ, are both many and marvelous.
The Spirit makes one a teacher of divine truth, inspires another to prophesy,
gives another the power of casting out devils, enables another to interpret
holy Scripture. The Spirit strengthens one's self-control, shows another
how to help the poor, teaches another to fast and lead a life of asceticism,
makes another oblivious to the needs of the body, trains another for martyrdom.
This action is different in different people, but the Spirit is always the
same. "In each person," Scripture says, "the Spirit reveals his presence in
a particular way for the common good."
The Spirit comes gently and makes himself known by his fragrance. The Spirit
is not felt as a burden, for the Spirit is light, very light. Rays of light
and knowledge stream before him as he approaches. The Spirit comes with the
tenderness of a true friend and protector to save, to heal, to teach, to
counsel, to strengthen, to console. The Spirit comes to enlighten the mind
first of the one who receives him, and then, through that one, the minds of
others as well.
As light strikes the eyes of those who come out of darkness into the sunshine
and enables them to see clearly things they could not discern before, so light
floods the souls of those counted worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit and
enables them to see things beyond the range of human vision, things hitherto
undreamed of.
|
| 1248.18 | Litany of the Holy Spirit | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:09 | 84 |
| Lord, have mercy upon us.
Christ, have mercy upon us.
Lord, have mercy upon us.
O Christ, hear us.
O Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven, Have mercy upon us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, Have mercy upon us.
God the Holy Ghost, the Inspirer, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Trinity, One God, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father
and the Son, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Ghost, Co-equal with the Father
and the Son, Have mercy upon us.
Promise of the Father, Have mercy upon us.
Gift of the Most High God, Have mercy upon us.
Ray of Heavenly Light, Have mercy upon us.
Author of all good, Have mercy upon us.
Source of Living Water, Have mercy upon us.
Burning Love, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Truth and Power, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Counsel and Might, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Knowledge and Piety, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of the Fear of the Lord, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Compunction and Repentance, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Grace and Prayer, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Love, Joy and Peace, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Patience, Long-Suffering and
Gentleness, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Mildness and Faith, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Modesty, Purity and Chastity, Have mercy upon us.
Spirit of Adoption of the Sons of God, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Ghost, the Comforter, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Ghost, the Sanctifier, Have mercy upon us.
Who in the beginning didst move over the
waters, Have mercy upon us.
Who didst inspire the holy men of old, Have mercy upon us.
Who didst overshadow the Blessed Virgin, Have mercy upon us.
Who didst give her power to conceive the
Son of God, Have mercy upon us.
Who didst appear at the Baptism of Jesus, Have mercy upon us.
Who didst descend upon the Apostles on the
Day of Pentecost, Have mercy upon us.
Who dwellest in us, Have mercy upon us.
Who governest the Church, Have mercy upon us.
Who fillest the whole world, Have mercy upon us.
Holy Ghost, we beseech thee to hear us, that
thou wouldest renew the face of the earth, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest shed thy light in our
hearts, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest inflame us with thy Love, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest open to us the Treasures
of thy Grace, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest make us obedient to thy
Inspirations, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest help us to love and bear
with each other, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest teach us to pray and
thyself pray within us, We beseech thee to hear us.
That thou wouldest cause us to persevere
in righteousness, We beseech thee to hear us.
Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
Pour out thy Holy Spirit upon us.
Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
Send down thy Holy Spirit upon us.
Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
Grant to us thy Holy Spirit.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
Create in us a clean heart, O God.
And renew a right spirit within us.
Let us pray.
Grant, O Merciful Father, that thy Divine Spirit may enlighten, inflame,
and cleanse our hearts, that His indwelling Presence may fill us, and
make us fruitful in good works. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
The Grace of the Holy Spirit enlighten our hearts and senses. Amen.
|
| 1248.19 | A Prayer for the Seven-Fold Gift | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:10 | 35 |
| O Holy Ghost, my Lord and my God, who has over-shadowed the Blessed Virgin
Mary and formed the most holy humanity of my Saviour Jesus Christ, I adore
thee, and acknowledge here in thy divine presence, that I am nothing and
can do nothing without thee. Come, thou blessed Spirit of God, and dwell
in this soul that longs to be thy holy temple. Heal the lurking distemper
of my heart and infuse thy grace into the well-springs of my life.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of wisdom and supernatural light, that I
may not only know God, his infinite goodness, power, and beauty, but also
taste with ardent joy of heart his infinite sweetness.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of understanding and shining light, that
I may know the mysteries of faith and of heavenly things, not as in
darkness, but in the true light of thy wisdom filling my mind and heart.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of counsel and brilliant light, that in
danger and doubt I may choose what is right and good, and under thy
guidance attain a happy end.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of fortitude and comforting light, that I
may generously overcome all difficulties in the way of salvation, resisting
all temptations, and bearing patiently all the troubles and trials of this
life.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of knowledge and discerning light, that I
may judge of all things according to their true worth, and despise what is
to be despised and love what is to be loved.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of godliness and heavenly light, which may
penetrate my soul with a tender devotion to thee and love for thy divine
service, and also cause me to find happiness in practising good works.
O Holy Ghost, grant me the gift of the fear of God and penetrating light,
that I may recognize how greatly sin offends thy infinite majesty, and
may fear and most carefully avoid all that is displeasing to thee.
|
| 1248.20 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:11 | 46 |
| From the treatise On the Holy Spirit by Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea
[379]
The titles given to the Holy Spirit must surely stir the soul of anyone
who hears them, and make one realize that they speak of nothing less than
the supreme Being. Is he not called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of
truth who proceeds from the Father, the steadfast Spirit, the guiding
Spirit? But his principal and most personal title is the Holy Spirit.
To the Spirit all creatures turn in their need for sanctification; all
living things seek him according to their ability. His breath empowers
each to achieve its own natural end.
The Spirit is the source of holiness, a spiritual light, and he offers his
own light to every mind to help it in its search for truth. By nature
the Spirit is beyond the reach of our mind, but we can know him by his
goodness. The power of the Spirit fills the whole universe, but the
Spirit gives himself only to those who are worthy, acting in each
according to the measure of faith.
Simple in himself, the Spirit is manifold in his mighty works. The whole
of his being is present to each individual; the whole of his being is
present everywhere. Though shared in by many, he remains unchanged; his
self-giving is no loss to himself. Like the sunshine, which permeates
all the atmosphere, spreading over land and sea, and yet is enjoyed by
each person as though it were for each alone, so the Spirit pours forth
his grace in full measure, sufficient for all, and yet is present as
though exclusively to everyone who can receive him. To all creatures
that share in him he gives a delight limited only by their own nature,
not by his ability to give.
The Spirit raises our hearts to heaven, guides the steps of the weak,
and brings to perfection those who are making progress. He enlightens
those who have been cleansed from every stain of sin and makes them
spiritual by communion with himself.
As clear, transparent substances become very bright when sunlight falls
on them and shine with a new radiance, so also souls in whom the Spirit
dwells, and who are enlightened by the Spirit, become spiritual themselves
and a source of grace for others.
From the Spirit comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of the
mysteries of faith, insight into the hidden meaning of Scripture, and
other special gifts. Through the Spirit we become citizens of heaven,
we are admitted to the company of the angels, we enter into eternal
happiness, and abide in God.
|
| 1248.21 | The Day of Pentecost | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:12 | 11 |
| When the day of Pentecost had come,
they were all together in one place.
And suddenly from heaven there came a
sound like the rush of a violent wind,
and it filled the entire house where
they were sitting. Divided tongues, as
of fire, appeared among them, and a
tongue rested on each of them. All of
them were filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak in other languages,
as the Spirit gave them ability.
|
| 1248.22 | Whitsun sequence | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:13 | 39 |
| Come, thou Holy Spirit, come;
and from thy celestial home
send thy light and brilliancy.
Come, thou father of the poor,
come who givest all our store,
come the soul's true radiancy.
Come, of comforters the best,
of the soul the sweetest guest,
sweetly and refreshingly.
Come, in labour rest most sweet,
shade and coolness in the heat,
comfort in adversity.
Thou who art the Light most blest,
come fulfil their inmost breast,
who believe most faithfully.
For without thy Godhead's dower,
man hath nothing in his power,
save to work iniquity.
What is filthy make thou pure,
what is wounded work its cure,
water what is parched and dry.
Gently bend the stubborn will,
warm to life the heart that's chill,
guide who goeth erringly.
Fill thy faithful who adore,
and confess thee evermore,
with thy sevenfold mystery.
Here thy grace and virtue send,
grant salvation in the end,
and in heaven felicity. Amen. Alleluia.
|
| 1248.23 | inpsiring testimonies | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Thu Aug 01 1996 10:24 | 10 |
| John,
those are some truly inspiring testimonies.
I am particularly inspired by .17, .19, and .20.
Thank you for entering them.
Patricia
|
| 1248.24 | | SMARTT::DGAUTHIER | | Thu Aug 01 1996 15:03 | 8 |
|
It's been said that one can detect if the Holy Spirit is with someone
through observation. What outward signs might a person demonstrate
which would indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit?
Can the Holy Spirit be with non-humans (animals?, trees?, oceans?).
If not, why not?
|
| 1248.25 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Thu Aug 01 1996 16:36 | 5 |
| "But the fruit of the Spirit are Peace, patience, kindness,
longsuffering..." This is probably the best outward sign of a Spirit
filled believer.
-
|
| 1248.26 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Thu Aug 01 1996 16:56 | 4 |
| Are those who display these signs filled with the spirit? Or just
some? (I won't drive the thing to the point of being an irritant).
-dave
|
| 1248.27 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Thu Aug 01 1996 17:24 | 14 |
|
The Bible says in Ephesians "do not be drunk with wine, but be filled
with the Spirit." The sense of the term "be filled" indicates it is an
ongoing thing. Those who are filled with the spirit will exhibit those
fruits, though certainly not all that do are filled with the spirit,
assuming you are speaking of the unsaved.
Jim
|
| 1248.28 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Thu Aug 01 1996 18:02 | 19 |
| re .27 (Jim)
Not sure how you translated the quote from Ephesians the way you did.
Maybe the surrounding text is needed. On it's own, I'd take it to mean
that one should not need alchohol, but have the Holy Spirit as a means
to attain spiritual fulfillment. I can't see anyting exclusionary in
it.
Yes, I'm thinking of non-christians. "Peace, patience, kindness,
longsuffering..." stood right out at me as I've read about these over
and over and over again when reading about eastern philosophy and
enlightenment.
But I promised not to push this so I'll stop.
-dave
|
| 1248.29 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Thu Aug 01 1996 18:32 | 33 |
| I believe it is something worthy of discussion. It is not exclusionary
because it is directed to the members of the Church at Ephesus. The
passage is saying to me that when one becomes intoxicated, they lose
their spiritual focus and turn toward carnality. The letter has much
to say about this. "See that you walk circumspectly; not as fools but
as wise." It could be that alcohol was a major issue in that culture,
and Paul was admonishing the new converts to walk by the Spirit and not
by the flesh. Being filled with the Spirit is a command; therefore, it
is something one has to acquire by action. Being sealed with the
Spirit, as I mentioned yesterday and is found in Ephesians 1, is
something completely different.
An analogy...if you have a glass of white milk and you put Nestlees
Quick in it, then the Quick is definitely a part of that drink, no
disputing it...it cannot come out in the same manner it went in.
However, the Quick is of no effect unless it is stirred throughout.
This is the primary difference between being sealed and being filled.
One can possess the Spirit of God but the effects require actions of
faith on the believers part.
In regard to non believers, outwardly, there can be no difference at
all. The Holy Spirit can compensate where one is weak...Paul and Silas
in the Philippian Jail for example. Who would want to express joy and
peace in a cold rat infested dungeon? I'd probably be having a pity
party! However, a nonbeliever, while capable very much of having
outward peace and tranquility, can be deceived by perceptions. "There
is a way which seems right unto a man, but it's end is the way of
death."
This is why, David, feelings are a very deceiving measurement for
spirituality.
-Jack
|
| 1248.30 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Aug 02 1996 10:26 | 18 |
| Re .29 (Jack)
Then you're saying that these outward signs cannot be used as a test to
determine who has the HS and who hasn't.
FWIW: It's said that the outward signs (peace, patience, kindness,
etc...) are not something which one trys to do, rather, it's something
that one does naturally when enlightened. As an aside, there are examples
of some of these people retaining their high spirit in adverse conditions
(Ghandi in his fast, Ramana Marhashi when dying of cancer, + others).
I know you don't believe these people can be in touch with the HS. I
respect your opinion on this. I just find the similarities to be too
great to ignore.
-dave
|
| 1248.31 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Fri Aug 02 1996 10:44 | 21 |
| Z Then you're saying that these outward signs cannot be used as a test to
Z determine who has the HS and who hasn't.
Yes, that is my belief. One can still have the Holy Spirit but not
walk in the Spirit. Likewise, an individual can very much display the
fruit of the Spirit and yet be unregenerated and die in their sins. By
human measurement, this appears as a travesty and seems inequitable;
however, it also brings home the understanding of forgiveness.
Remember, no matter who one is, be they the greatest humanitarian or
the lowest of the low, we are all of the same nature. The Holy Spirit
acts as a mark of righteousness. In other words, that which makes us
Holy before God is the Spirit of God within us.
"For I am dead to sin and it is not I who lives but Christ who lives in
me. And the life I live I live by faith in the one who loved me, and
gave his life for me."
Such a simple message really. I am grateful that God is faithful even
when I am faithless.
-Jack
|
| 1248.32 | The Holy Spirit | DELNI::MCCAULEY | | Fri Aug 02 1996 11:06 | 48 |
| It has been suggested to me that if I ponder scripture hard enough and
long enough, that i will eventually understand the deeper meaning of
it.
The trinity is one of those concepts that from a mythical surface level
seems ridiculous, but from a deeper level begins to make sense.
How do we as humans begin to comprehend a God who is both transcendent,
(separate from physical time and reality) and immanent (part of all
time and all reality) How do we comprehend a Jesus Christ. A God
incarnate in human flesh.
The Holy Spirit for me is the easiest of the three to glimpse. God,
the Holy Spirit is everywhere. Within me and around me and within and
around all humanity and all creation. God, the Holy Spirit who can be
perceived in a blade of grass and in the smile of a child. God, the
Holy Spirit who can be perceived in our deepest moments of love and
passion and in our deepest moments of pain and agony.
The Cosmic Christ, though seems a whole lot like the Holy Spirit. Not
the Historic Jesus, the man who walked, talked, and lived with humanity
for 33 years. But the Cosmic Christ. The Christ that will be within
us as we be within him.
Then, there is God the transcendent Parent. The God who is distant and
powerful and perhaps even scary.
But then all three images blend into one Divine figure. God the
parent, God incarnate, and God the holy spirit.
I am a monotheist and a universalist. God created all things and God
loves, cares for, and nurtures all things. Every true religion is a
religion of God.
Judaism and Islam seem to me to focus on God the transcendent parent.
Christianity focuses on God incarnate.
Native American spirituality and Neo Paganism focus on God, the Great
Spirit, within surrounding, and part of all reality. The Spirit of
Love, the Spirit of truth, The Spirit of Life itself.
The Bible clearly tells us that we can test the spirit by the fruits of
the spirit. Peace, kindness, and love are all gifts from God, the
parent, God incarnate, and God the Holy Spirit.
Patricia
|
| 1248.33 | | BIGQ::SILVA | quince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/ | Fri Aug 02 1996 13:01 | 10 |
| | <<< Note 1248.31 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>
| By human measurement, this appears as a travesty and seems inequitable;
Then you yourself would never tell another that they don't have the
Spirit, right Jack? I think you have said this before, but my memory is foggy
at best. But if this is true, then will you also speak out against those who
say so and so is going to Hell, they don't have the Spirit, etc?
|
| 1248.34 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Mon Aug 05 1996 15:39 | 11 |
| Re: God the transcendant parent
I really don't see it that way. Abba ("Daddy") Father and His love for
us is mostly the image I see. When you focus on the love of God and
what He did for us on the cross, everything else becomes secondary.
I'm told it is quite an experience to hear Israeli children calling out
"Abba" in the marketplace and know this is what Paul talks about in
Romans. Those in Christ truly are His children. He is my Daddy.
Mike
|
| 1248.35 | | BIGQ::SILVA | quince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/ | Mon Aug 05 1996 16:23 | 7 |
| | <<< Note 1248.34 by PHXSS1::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>
| I'm told it is quite an experience to hear Israeli children calling out
| "Abba" in the marketplace
Maybe during the 70's it was! :-)
|
| 1248.36 | boo! hiss! boo! | PHXSS1::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Mon Aug 05 1996 19:35 | 1 |
|
|
| 1248.37 | | ACISS2::LEECH | | Tue Aug 06 1996 17:52 | 6 |
| .35
I must confess that when I first read "Abba", a certain rock group of
the 70's came to mind. 8^)
I'll go hang my head in shame, now...
|
| 1248.38 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Wed Aug 07 1996 14:55 | 6 |
| Ab = Father
Abba = Daddy
fits in quite nicely when you read Romans 8 (especially v. 15)
Mike
|
| 1248.39 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Mon Aug 12 1996 11:22 | 11 |
| Z Then you yourself would never tell another that they don't have the
Z Spirit, right Jack? I think you have said this before,
Glen, my personal feelings regarding the travesty of something...or
what I perceive in my frail humanity as inequitable is unimportant to
truth. Truth must stand before and above all things. Also, any
comments I would make regarding somebody's spiritual standing would
only be a n observation of somebody elses words. If somebody claims to
be an atheist proudly, one can only draw the conclusion.
-Jack
|