Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Richard,

A short answer would be no. Why?, well as John who came to know
Jehovah well was able to say "God is love" 1 John 4:8.

Deuteronomy 32:4 RSV reads "'The Rock, his work is perfect; for all
his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and right is he.'" and Jeremiah 3:12 NWT "I am loyal,".

One person who is dependable and that is Jehovah God, certainly
his servants have found they can put their whole trust in him.
The Bible shows in all the accounts that they have never been
let down.

Richard, what was your reason for asking?.

Phil.

 Z   A short answer would be no. Why?, well as John who came to know
 Z   Jehovah well was able to say "God is love" 1 John 4:8.
    
    There was a case in one of the Book of Kings I believe, where God sent
    a deceiving spirit to enter into one of the prophets.  If my memory
    serves correctly, many died in battle because of this.
    
    I believe it was a case where the military leader was so indignant and
    wanted to hear what he wanted to hear, that God allowed this to happen. 
    Kind of like where God gives people over to a probate mind.
    
    -Jack 

re .2

  Jack,

  Not sure what account your thinking of.

  James 1:13-14 NWT reads "When under trial, let no one say:
  'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot
  be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is 
  drawn out and enticed by his own desire."

  Because God is permitting the suffering that is going on, 
  doesn't mean he is one responsible for the evil we see today.
  Man reaps what he sows, greed brings about wars, famine,
  disease and so-called natural disasters. As one person put
  it (Ghandi I think), "There's enough for everyones needs but
  not for everyones wants." The fact that there is enough for
  everyones needs, shows us something about our Creator in that
  he cares for all his creation and that he is not a vindictive 
  God, as Jesus mentioned "since he makes the sun rise upon 
  wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people 
  and unrighteous" Matthew 5:45b NWT Yet when man shows greed 
  and rapes the planet of it's resources which in turn has a 
  knock on effect to the environment he oftens blames God (only 
  an evil God would let this happen), or says there is no God. 
  Such persons will be in for a rude awakening for he says he 
  will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18b. 
  Some may say this is an evil act in itself, but in reality it 
  will be a merciful one for those who want to live peaceably and 
  in harmony with his will.
 
  In the meantime Jehovah God continues to show love and mercy
  to all peoples, for he invites them to take the path in which
  they should tread so as to repent and turn around to the
  previous course that they are on (Matthew 24:14, 28:19-20). 
  As 1 John 2:15-17 NWT reads "Do not be loving either the world 
  or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love 
  of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world 
  - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the 
  showy display of ones means of life - does not orginate with 
  the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the 
  world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does 
  the will of God remains forever." The evil traits of this world 
  originate with the "ruler of this world" Satan and cannot be 
  attributed to Jehovah God (John 12:31).
 

  Phil.

    Oh, I agree with you that the evil did not come from God.  However,
    there are instances in scripture where evil purveys with Gods full
    foreknowledge and permission...the case of Job being the most
    prominent.
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    IN the Job story, what was the evil?

Jack, 

The event you refer to is recorded in 1 Kings 22:21-23 and 2 Chron 18:20-22.
The Lord allowed a "lying spirit" to speak to all of king Ahab's prophets; thus
allowing him to be deceived and lose his life in battle.

Michael

    Thanks Michael.
    
    Patricia, the evil was actually Satan's attack on Job.  If you remember
    the account, God gave Satan permission with certain restrictions...i.e.
    you may not take life or limb, etc.
    
    -Jack

    James 1:13 is the very reason why Mormons are wrong when they say God
    made Adam fall so He could save mankind.
    
    Mike

    Jack,
    
    How was Satan's attack evil?  What specifically was the Evil done?
    
    The testing of Job?
    The taking away of his property?
    The death of his wife?
    The death of his children?
    
    What was the evil?  Was it evil for Satan to test Job?  Was it evil for
    God to give permission to Satan to test Job?  Was it one or more of the
    losses experienced by Job that was evil?
    
    
                                   Patricia

 Z   What was the evil?  Was it evil for Satan to test Job?  Was it evil for
 Z   God to give permission to Satan to test Job?  Was it one or more of
 Z   the losses experienced by Job that was evil?
    
    Actually, point well made.  I would say the only evil in this case was
    Satan's attempt to cause Job to fail..in other words, Satan's motive.
    
    Was God's judgement on Egypt evil?  How about God's judgement on Israel
    via the Babylonian exile?  I don't believe so, since it established
    God's sovereignty.  Perhaps God's sovereignty was being established
    with Job, but like Judas, Satan was motivated by evil intent...similar
    to Judas.
    
    -Jack

    Satan, in Job a title rather than a name, served a role much like that
    of a prosecuting attorney.  Now, it is possible to see such work as
    evil.  I'm certain that if I were on the receiving end, I would see it
    as less than benevolent, at the very least.
    
    Richard
    

.1

>Richard, what was your reason for asking?.

I thought it an interesting question.

Shalom,
Richard

    The concept is that God is omnipotent. If evil exists, it follows that He
    chooses that it should exist. The mythology supports this concept. Adam and
    Eve are punished for having eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and
    evil. The tree couldn't exist without God creating it.

    Curiously, God cast Adam and Eve out saying "Behold, the man has become
    like one of Us, knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch out his
    hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-

    If you understand good and evil AND live forever, apparently you're just
    like God and apparently He doesn't want us to be like Him. I find it odd
    that Jesus arrives to offer eternal life, the very thing God casts Adam and
    Eve out for, lest they should partake of it and become like Him.

    Baffling.

    John

Re  .13

    Evil is - by definition in a Biblical context - rebellion against God.
    There cannot be free will without the possibility of rebellion.  God
    allows evil to exist as a consequence of free will.

    When Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge their sin was in their
    disobedience (rebellion).  Like God, mankind now understood the difference
    BUT was now incapable of not committing further rebellion (evil).

    Notice God did not forbid Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Life but
    only from the Tree of Knowledge.  The Tree of Life is the embodiment of
    eternal life drawn from God Himself.  Total reliance and loyalty to Him.
    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is the embodiment of rebellion -
    doing our own thing.  This was the choice, one or the other.

    Having rebelled against God, Adam and Eve were denied access to the Tree
    of Life.  The reason is twofold (at least).  First, the choice was made -
    independence.  Second, rebellion against God results in separation from
    Him - the very source of all that is good.  Eternal life separated from
    God is the very definition of Hell.

    Jesus' mission accomplished two things (AT LEAST).  He reconciled us to
    Himself by paying for *ALL* our sin in His death and REPLACED our sin
    nature, with His righteous one, in His resurrection.  This replacement
    begins when we trust Him to save us (salvation) and continues throughout
    the life of the Christian.  As a consequence of our new nature (that is of
    God) we have eternal life with Him.

    Once again, though, we must choose to trust Him or not.

    Michael

    Isn't the Adam and Eve story a wonderful myth!
    
    Isn't the Job story tremendous.
    
    
    What a wonderful question.  Thank you Richard.

    Patricia:
    
    Do you believe the geneology of the Hebrews to be accurate?  
    
    One thing I can say with more of a historical bend is the Hebrews were
    very accurate in their records of geneology.  
    
    -Jack

        
    
   >   Do you believe the geneology of the Hebrews to be accurate?  
    
    
    Of course Not!.                               
                                   

    Well, you do the Jewish culture a great injustice...but I appreciate
    your honesty.
    
    -Jack

    .18
    
    And do you believe it all began with two Hebrew-speaking kids and a talking
    snake?
    
    Richard
    

    Well, let's just say that I believe Adam was a real person and he
    existed.  Since there is a family lineage, it would make sense to me
    that Seth and Cain referred to Adam as dad!  Do I believe there was a
    serpeant...sure.  One thing we have all come to agreement here is that
    God is not bound by anything in the natural world.  Do you believe
    Balaam and his donkey had dialog together?
    
    By the way, good line about Kansas!  I agree! :-)

    I believe that less historically-based stories tend to occur before
    Abraham.
    
    And as we all know, asses do occasionally speak.  Sometimes more than
    occasionally.
    
    Richard
    
    

 Z    And as we all know, asses do occasionally speak.  Sometimes more than
 Z    occasionally.
    
    Yes...which confirms how frail humanity really is!  

    
    > Can God choose evil over good?  Has God ever chosen evil over good?

    These are a couple of tough questions! As I was pondering them I
    came to a question: what do you mean by "choose?" Choose for what?
    Choose to *do* evil over good... prefer (choose) an evil thing/action
    over a good... choose to allow evil deeds of mankind to win over good
    deeds, in a temporal way??

    Can you clarify, or expand on your question a bit.

    Eric

    P.S. How's that arm doing, Richard?

    The question arose from an interview I saw with Rabbi Harold Kushner.
    He said humans can do one thing God cannot.  And that is to choose
    between good and evil.
    
    I pondered the rabbi's premise and decided to pose it as a toss-up
    question here.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    
    My arm is out of a cast, but it remains weak and frustratingly
    uncooperative.
    

Because God is infinite love and perfect good,

and

Evil is that which is not good and opposed to God's will,

then by definition

God cannot do evil.

/john

        re .25

    Doesn't that contradict the omnipotent nature of God?  How can there be
    limitations of what a being can do, and yet still consider the being
    all powerful?
    
    Eric

    That proposition that omnipotence necessitates self-contradiction
    is a fallacy.

>    That proposition that omnipotence necessitates self-contradiction
>    is a fallacy.

Sounds good.  But, does it make sense?

re .26

	Eric,

	God is all-powerful, but this is just one of many of his qualities.
	The four living creatures mentioned in revelation 4:6-7 picture
	his four main qualities. The one like a young bull his power, 
	the man's face his love, the lion his courageous justice 
	and the eagle his far-sighted wisdom.

	Now these qualities he displays in perfect balance, harmony. For
	example, he will not use his power if it's unjust, unloving or
	unwise in the long run. With this in mind his servants can put
	full trust in serving their God, for he is loyal and places
	these limitations himself.

	Phil.
	

    
    re .29

    Well, I didn't come away with the same conclusions as you did after
    reading Rev 4, but that's ok.

    People have said that God *cannot* choose evil, but I feel that would
    contradict his omnipotent nature. Therefore, he *can* choose, but his
    nature of goodness is that he *chooses not* to do evil. Being all
    powerful doesn't mean that you have to exercise all possible power in
    all possible directions. It means being powerful enough to NOT choose
    evil.

    With all due respect to there rabbi to whom Richard refers, there are
    many things that humans choose to do that God does not. That doesn't
    imply that humans have a power that God does not, just the opposite is
    true: humans do not have the power that God has to abstain from evil.

re .30

	Eric,

;    Well, I didn't come away with the same conclusions as you did after
;    reading Rev 4, but that's ok.

These conclusions come from an in depth study.

;Therefore, he *can* choose, but his nature of goodness is that he 
;*chooses not* to do evil.

Agreed out of goodness he does not chose evil, so one can put full trust
in him and his Word.

;true: humans do not have the power that God has to abstain from evil.

How do you perceive Galations 5:22-25?, can humans abstain from evil 
with some help and guidance from God?. 

	Phil.

ZZ    These conclusions come from an in depth study.
    
    As long as the study was not done with false assumptions, then yes,
    there would be merit to this.
    
    -Jack

    "And do we know who does and who doesn't have the false assumptions?"
    he mused with a wink.
    
    Richard
    

    
    > How do you perceive Galations 5:22-25?, can humans abstain from evil 
    > with some help and guidance from God?. 

    With the Holy Spirit all things are possible. My point was not that
    humans can never abstain from evil, but that humans cannot *always*
    abstain from evil. I don't this verse indicates otherwise.

    Eric

re .34

	Eric,

	Yes, humans are sinful. But examples such as Job show that humans
	have been created with the capacity of keeping their integrity,
	even under extreme provocation.

	Phil. 

    Job was a precious servant to the Lord and no doubt full of the Holy
    Spirit.